Bubbling Over (with Scott Jennings)
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Hey, Hacker Roos, before we start this show, we have a little bit of administrative business, right, Axe? We sure do, yeah, man. We had an errant ad that fell on one of our, I guess in Ireland, is that where it was heard? I think to our many Irish listeners, they heard an ad that we, one, didn't make, two, didn't know about, three, didn't approve, and normally that's SOP around here, but we weren't even paid for it. But when we found out what the ad was for,

Before, we thought we had to make a quick announcement. You want to break the bad news, Axe? Yeah, I think the ad was for Trump Hotels. Oh, my God. Or for the Trump Hotel in Ireland. Yeah, we'd probably stay away from that on the podcast, had anybody mentioned it to us. Well, what happened is we have a computer, or the network does, and that inserts ads dynamically across a lot of platforms. So anyway...

you know, let's just put it this way. A spark plug didn't fire in the computating machine and we didn't give approval to it. Now, on the other hand, on behalf of the hardworking fellow brother Irish people who work at the hotel, I want them all to do well. On the other hand, it's hard for us to endorse anything with Trump written on it because it glows in the dark and it stinks. So we're not telling you not to go there.

And if you do, tip well. Tell them, thank God you're working here. Tell them you're sorry they have to work there because once a year, you know who might even show up. Good day to call in sick. But that was a mistake, and we don't want you to misconstrue any endorsement for any Trump product. Keep your eyes open for cartons of classified documents as well. Yeah, they're in the basement. We pay top dollar, by the way. Why call the Russians? We'll talk to you. All right, shall we get to the show? Yes.

Hey, pull up a chair. It's Hacks on Tap with David Axelrod, Robert Gibbs, and Mike Murphy. He will survive. Look, the house is a rough and rowdy place, but Mike Johnson is going to be just fine. I served 20 years in the military. It's my absolute honor to be in Congress, but I served with some real scumbags. Look, Matt Gaetz, he paid minors to have sex with him at drug parties.

Bob Good endorsed my opponent, a known neo-Nazi. These people used to walk around with white hoods at night. Now they're walking around with white hoods in the daytime. Look, it didn't surprise me that some of these folks voted against aid to Israel, but I was encouraged to see by a nearly 10 to 1 mark that Republicans supported our allies on the battlefield. Wow. OK. I should say that the federal government did well.

look into Matt Gaetz and those allegations and they decided not to prosecute. So, well, we found a speaker. We got our new candidate here. Yeah. Tony Gonzalez from Texas was on CNN State of the Union on Sunday and he just let it all flow out about the about the Marjorie Taylor Green caucus in Congress and sitting right there with him on the set, Mike.

Scott Jennings, almost as good as Gonzalez's tirade, was watching Jennings' face as he observed this national event.

television. Scott, what was on your mind there? Well, I'm still gluing my eyebrows back on because Gonzalez brought the flamethrower. I couldn't believe it. You know, I had my pithy joke prepared about Joe Biden's uncle being eaten by cannibals, which I went ahead and still used anyway. But in the face of Gonzalez, I knew at the moment he was going to get all the attention out of our state of the union. But it is obvious to me that

that the Tony Gonzalez's of the world have had it with their lives being effectively run and ruined every day by just a small handful of people in this conference. And you could see it just spilling out of him there on the show. He's had it with these guys.

You know, that is an important point because people watching this, you know, you always think these guys are running around in limousines and the Congress. It's high school. And there is a big quality of life factor. I remember a great old story about an old Republican appropriator in the cloakroom who had his favorite couch to take naps on.

And some dumb freshman sat down and took his space. So he walked over to Tip O'Neill and had him bring everybody to the floor just so he could get his couch back and take a nap. You know, it took four hours to go through the procedural vote. So don't underestimate the building frustration that Scott is talking about. And it is possible this whole motion to vacate thing, the dagger they hold at the knife,

McCarthy had lowered it to a lower threshold. It could go back up again. So a caucus of five aluminum foil hat wearers led by MTG may not get the leverage anymore. So keep an eye because this is bubbling over in the Republican conference. OK, like a responsible podcast probably would have introduced the topic before we got into the details. As for the past weekend, something significant happened in the United States Congress. They actually acted.

on the floor of the U S house to pass, uh, uh,

After eight months, aid that's vital to Ukraine, aid to Israel that included humanitarian aid, aid to Taiwan, and a bill that was tucked in there that we should talk about as well that would force TikTok to disengage from its Chinese overseers. And... But...

This has been held up for a long time, and it's been held up in part by Marjorie Taylor Greene, who is the Kremlin representative, I guess, on the floor of the United States House, just spewing Putin talking points. And Mike Johnson did a thing that people have been hoping he would do for a long time, which is he put a bill on the floor over their objections and

and carried them with Democratic support. Scott, what does this mean for Johnson? Well, I think it means a couple of things. One, I was so glad that he got religion on this. And by religion, I mean he got intelligence briefings because it was obvious that once he became the speaker and he started to learn about the threats to the world and about the threats that may manifest against the United States of America, he quickly realized that this is in our best interest. So good for him for listening and

By the way, you know, Ken Buck, who just resigned from the House in frustration, told me on the Axe Files yesterday, which is going to go up on Thursday, that he believed that part of Johnson's reorientation on this actually was about religion because he saw the assaults on Christians by Russians, and

in Ukraine, the assault on churches and so on. And he was deeply offended by that. But anyway, go ahead. Yeah, well, I hope that's true because it's because that is true. It is what's happening around the world. So good to react to that. Number two, I think Johnson decided that ultimately and he said it this flatly that you just can't run around worrying about your job on a daily basis that will prevent you from doing your job. And when he said that,

I thought he just started a conversation about steering our politics back towards the middle

And we have a wide middle country. And you can be a conservative in the middle and you can be a more liberal person in the middle. But away from this dysfunctional fringe that is hell-bent on destroying all government functional process. I mean, the House worked its will. That was the phrase that he used. And you had a wide bipartisan majority that wanted to do something. And he steered us away from the dysfunctional fringe and

and towards a wide middle, and a novel thing happened. They cast votes, a bill passed, and Republicans and Democrats came together to do something, and that ought to be celebrated. And if they do pull his card on the motion to vacate, I hope the Democrats stand with him because he struck a blow for functionality and for a middle ground as opposed to just succumbing to the constant dysfunction of these radical fringes.

Murphy, I thought he deserved credit for what he did. And I think it's, you know, if you're someone in the trenches in Ukraine, you know, it didn't come a minute too soon. But does this represent because, you know, one thing that should be noted, and I appreciate the spirit of Scott's remarks,

is that less than a majority of the Republican caucus voted for the aid to Ukraine. So what does that say? Well, you know, in the old days, we were always worried about the Russians winning one on the floor with Democratic votes. Now, you know, it is refreshing to see the Russians lose one on the floor. But your point is well taken. In the Republican conference, the no-Ukraine-aid, moronic, useful idiot kind of vote was

would have carried the day alone. That is depressing. Though I do think there were no shortage of Republican members who were delighted with the outcome, even though they voted against it. Because if they had voted, you know, back home, they want to say, I'm not for any foreign war. But if the Ukrainian lines had crumbled due to lack, which is a real risk, due to lack of supplies, then they would have owned the who lost the Ukraine debate that would flare out. But said he thought that if...

people actually voted what they thought that two-thirds of the Republicans voted, but they didn't, which tells you about the— Well, no, that tells you there are primaries, and, you know, our party's—my party's gone insane. So, yeah, I—and Johnson's an interesting case. You know, on one hand, I mean, I applaud him for this, too, and I was proud of when he found it. And there is a long trail in American history of

not particularly exceptional people in the clutch rising to the occasion. And he's been deeply unexceptional for a while here. But when the chips were stacked and the moment was important,

And, you know, he remembered why he's there. I think the intelligence briefings were part of it. And he kind of rose to the occasion. On the other hand, I feel like I'm giving a Boy Scout a merit badge for telling the truth. On the other hand, you know, it kind of took him a while to get there. But I'll praise him because he did it and it vigorous to him. And we don't see that a lot in Congress. Let me just say something as well, which is.

You know, and Scott, you may want to jump in on the other side of this. I don't know. But I actually I think the way the White House handled this with Johnson, the way Jeffries handled it with Johnson was very, very smart. They they.

They brought him into the Oval. They brought all the national security folks in. He was given access to all the material. But they did not take shots at him. They did not take public shots at him, which was smart. And neither did the caucus. And at the same time, when the question came up, will Democrats save Johnson, no one has said yes.

No one has said yes. Why? Because it isn't helpful to him.

Exactly. Democrats to be out there saying, oh, yeah, we'll save him if he needs to be saved. That would just be, you know, gunpowder for the Marjorie Taylor Greene's of the world. So Biden takes a lot of disparagement for being around Washington for more than half a century, which speaks a certain age. But there is something that goes along with that, which is experience. And I think that experience showed in this instance that.

Because this was a classic example that we don't see as much as we should of a Democrat White House and a Republican speaker working together on a matter of shared concern. Yeah, I think Biden, McConnell, Schumer, I mean, you look at all the players here, all with vastly more experience than Johnson.

And so to bring him along and bring him into this and to work with him publicly the way they did, all of them, I think is commendable. But I do want to say something about, despite his relative inexperience, his savvy in how he got this done. The well-timed trip to Mar-a-Lago, he obviously went down there and neutralized everything.

Trump. And he did two things that were vital. He incorporated Trump's loan idea on a part of the Ukraine aid, which I'm sure made Trump happy. But then he started to make a public point. He did it on some conservative media. I saw him do it. He said, you know, it's good for Republicans to support Ukraine today because when Donald Trump becomes the president, we all have confidence that he can find an end to this

situation that is good for the United States and good for our alliance with Ukraine. So when he his ability to control Trump here and to bring him along and to neutralize him

totally destroyed Marjorie Taylor Greene and that crowd. They did not have Trump to rely on here. Trump at one point even said the stability of Ukraine is in our vital interest. And so I have to say Johnson was so savvy on that because that was a big part, I think, of him being able to get ultimately where he got to. And it was really all on him to do it. And he pulled it off. I think part of the price of that was not putting any border security stuff into these bills because Trump

has made clear he wants that issue for himself. So he doesn't want, uh, you know, to move forward. Murphy, uh, I want you to listen to your, uh, your friend, Marjorie Taylor green, uh, because she was deeply, deeply offended, uh, by what happened this weekend. And I'm worried about her. She's very blue now steps on the cap. Yeah.

Steps of the don't call her blue. That's that makes it even worse. OK, so let's take a listen to that. This is the third betrayal by Mike Johnson. He delivered a two part omnibus under the Department of Justice. Ninety one federal indictments against President Trump funded the FBI that raided Mar-a-Lago, gave him a brand new FBI building, funded Joe Biden's open border policies that are killing Americans every single day.

Then he reauthorized FISA that spied on American citizens, spied on President Trump's campaign. And he voted against the warrant requirement, the same warrant requirement that he was for six months ago. And then he did this bullshit in here on the House floor, foreign war package that does nothing for America. It's unbelievable.

He's also running the international drug conspiracy, too, along with the Queen of England. Let's address this question. Whatever happened to sort of standards of speech on national television? We've got scumbags. We've got...

We've got bullshit. It's like a whole new world out there. No, no, our whole pop culture is declining. Yeah, yeah. Write a hot letter to Andy Cohen. You know, reality TV has taken over everything, including our politics. Remember, she's not a member of Congress. She's a direct response fundraising machine.

So her whole thing is to go throw a tantrum as sparky as possible on the steps of the Capitol about the great betrayal. And massive prospecting is going out through email. It used to be direct mail. Email is much better because you make a lot more money trying to get fellow nitwits to send her $15. And they do. Outrage into money is her business. The congressional thing is just a costume she wears.

The angrier she is, the better I feel, because it means something correct happened in Congress. If you feel good, Jennings, I feel good. Well, I'll tell you why I feel good, actually, about Congress right now. Most Americans wouldn't say that, but I will. And it's because of Johnson, who we've been talking about. But it's also because of John Fetterman.

who I have enormous amounts of respect for because just the way Johnson is standing up to the fringe in his party, Fetterman is standing up to the fringe in his party on the issue of Israel. And I'm going to write something about this for CNN this week. But the idea that you've got these two guys, not anything alike, totally different worlds, but they're showing us that you do not have to cater to

to the angry mob every day, that you can actually steer yourself towards a middle ground and you've got one guy in each party doing it. I think they both deserve our praise because this is what congressmen are supposed to do. That's what they're supposed to act like. And they're both doing it. So I have lots of hope. So we'll get to Fetterman. But just to close out this discussion on Johnson, one of her complaints was that

He can't raise money. To your point, Murphy, well, he can't even raise money, you know, so we're not going to win the House. You know, Buck said yes. Buck said on that. I don't know. We may have a clip of it. Let's see what he had to say on this. I think the majority in Congress is really up in the air. We'll see who wins the majority. But

If if Republicans win the majority, I think the Speaker Johnson will be getting given credit for having gone through a very difficult time period and having won the majority. And so I think he will probably be reelected as the speaker if the Republicans are still in the majority. You know, he makes he makes an interesting point.

If if if he if the Republicans win the majority and they have any kind of numbers that makes him stronger relative to any attempt to vacate the chair. And it seems to me this probably did passing these bills made Republicans stronger in those swing districts.

where this election is going to be decided. Yeah, it's a big meter inside the conference. Did the speaker get us more seats or less? They're judged by that among many other things. So yeah, if they hold or build the majority,

It's very good for Johnson. I mean, he proved the eternal lesson of politics, which is sometimes when conventional wisdom is be a coward and you do the opposite, you're stronger for that. And all the great political peril that you're supposed to be afraid of tends to melt a little. I mean, Greene is smaller now than she was when she was threatening things two weeks ago as a factor in the House.

So it's a lesson for Pauls that courage can actually pay off politically, often forgotten. People respond to leadership. I mean, they do, and Republicans did in this case. And look, if we win the majority and we have a lot more seats and he's got a little bit of a cushion, he's going to do it. I mean, think about what he's got going for him. He'll have done it probably being outspent. I think the Democrats, everybody acknowledges, are going to have way more money in this election than

And he'll have also done it while somehow maintaining a good relationship with Donald Trump, even in the face of all these people begging Trump to come out against Johnson. He wouldn't do it. He will have a stronger hand. But you know what he'll also always have, no matter what happens, is the ability to look in the mirror and say, I did the right thing. I did the right thing. We did the right thing, and the country was better for it. I just – if that's what he has accomplished in his life –

Good for him. You know, this is so fun to watch how cathartic this is for you guys. I've watched you suffer.

for years now. And this is a moment in which you can feel better. I don't know how this election is going to turn out. I think I'm a little more cynical about it. I hate to be. It's definitely a lurch in the right direction. And the good guys won. It was an, it should have been so easy. We're just in a world where the fact that this is a big victory, again, a Boy Scout telling the truth now gets a badge. Still,

I'll take it. Yeah. And I don't think I don't want to overstate the importance of it relative to the election either, because there are other issues, abortion rights and, you know, Trump himself and, you know, election denial and so on that that still hang over the Congress, the Republicans in Congress and and Johnson himself. So but it was a moment that that's for sure.

Jennings, as long as you're here, you being the political spawn of one Mitch McConnell, I wanted to ask you about, there's been three stories that have hit in the last few weeks that have to do with the star recruits of the Republican Party, one in Montana, one in Wisconsin, and one in Pennsylvania, about various

in Pennsylvania. It's whether Dave McCormick is inflating his boyhood experiences in rural America. Another was in Tim Sheehy. Is it Tim Sheehy?

Tim Sheehy in Montana, who has talked about his war injuries and then told a different story that he had shot himself in a national park or something. And then in Wisconsin, Hovde, the Republican candidate, apparently has ownership in a bank whose loan practices were in question. But

What it underscores to me is like there is a it is great to get these star recruits and they're they on paper look like very good candidates. It's all they're also unvetted candidates. And isn't that the flip side of going out and getting the sort of on paper where this guy would be a great politician sort of candidates? Sure. I mean, I think anytime somebody is running for the first time, they're going to go through this opposition research dump again.

And, you know, everybody's got something and even small somethings can be contorted into into large somethings. I don't think that's an unexpected development. But I do think on balance compared to what the alternative might have been, say, in Montana, which no doubt about it. I mean, this was this was the best they could do. And I do think the overall outcome.

class of candidates is better than the 22 class. And I would just throw Larry Hogan into that as well, who continues to defy. And everybody keeps saying, oh, don't worry, the Democrats are eventually going to. And he continues to defy that. Well, he's got like a 77% approval rating or something like that.

ridiculous there in Maryland. So he may be a Republican who can defy the tide. We'll see, because Maryland is likely to go very, very strongly for Biden in the fall. All right, we're going to leave for a minute to pay the power bill, and then we'll be right back. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know, Axe, is your social battery a little run down? You feeling drained? Are you feeling just like,

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Let's get to the other piece of this. You know, you reference Fetterman, and Fetterman has sort of chosen to make himself the kind of ramrod, the fulcrum of support for Israel in the Senate. And, you know, I mean, he went up on his roof and raised the Israeli flag as demonstrators before.

set upon his house and so on. So he's definitely landed there. But, you know, as we speak, there are demonstrations across the country,

protests on campus. This strikes me as a very complicated issue for Democrats, because on the one hand, there is genuine concern about the humanitarian crisis that has now erupted, not erupted, it's developed over time in Gaza. The war is still raging. And

You know, and on the other hand, there is concern about the security of Israel. Biden's right in the middle of that.

And you wonder if this thing is going to become a thing from now to November and what this means, for example, for the Democratic Convention in Chicago. I agree with that. Conventionally, it's a political dilemma for him, but he ought to take a lesson from the Speaker Johnson playbook here. Leadership works.

And he was a little late on the campuses. He's got to kind of pick a side here because no side is not the answer. And while it's complicated in my view anyway, and I'm a supporter of Israel, it's a little bit simple. There was a ceasefire. The Hamas broke it.

The Israelis... You've talked about before October 7th. Yeah, yeah. So this campus stuff, which is beyond moral equivalence, and the anti-Semitism that is exploding, particularly on some, predictably, these Ivy campuses, is abhorrent. And they've condemned it out of the White House, but it could be stronger, and it should be. And, you know, I'm happy. Well, you can't be happy about this kind of conflict. But I think...

starting to see a tougher line being taken on these demonstrators is a good thing. And Biden ought to get on that train, in my view. He ought to lead it. I totally agree. I thought his statement yesterday where he essentially he said, you know, there were very fine people on both sides. He was asked about the campus protest, which everybody, of course, is up in arms about when when Trump did it over Charlottesville. And I keep thinking about Biden. You know, the two things he ran on were Charlottesville and

That's when he said he knew he had to run and he's going to get rid of Trump out of our politics. Today, Trump is more popular than he was four years ago by a couple of points. And we're having 100 Charlottesvilles a day in this country. And I wish he would take a page out of the Fetterman book. Fetterman, by the way, is a net seven points more popular in Pennsylvania today than he was last fall. The people in Pennsylvania are responding to him, even if the fringe is upset with him. If Biden would just show the same kind of

I think it would help him. I think it would help him. You guys, I guess you guys are comfortable with what's happening in Gaza. I'm not. I absolutely, you know, I've said it a million times here. I'm the son of a Jewish refugee. I am very much pro-Israel. I was...

sickened by what happened on October 7th. And I understand Israel needs to be firm in its response because they can't have that kind of threat across their border.

All of that is true. That doesn't lessen my sense of grievance of grief for these children who are starving in Gaza. And yes, Hamas bears responsibility for some of that as well, or a lot of that as well, using human shields and so on.

But I'm not going to, I mean, I appreciate the passion of people who have concerns about that as well. What it can't become is this, it can't sort of evolve into this kind of

hate-filled anti-Semitism that we've seen in some quarters, some quarters, and that ought to be denounced. And frankly, you know, campuses can't become sort of a theater for all of that. And students of all, whether they're Muslim students or Jewish students, everyone ought to feel safe on campuses to be who they are without intimidation or threat.

So I think it's, you know, I understand why you guys would jump on it, but it is more complicated. And I agree, I think on this issue, on this issue, on this issue, I think you do have to put your foot down and say, no, we're not going to let this happen on our campuses. We hear what you're saying, but this isn't the way to to affect change.

Well, just to be clear, I am not happy about the humanitarian situation in Gaza. And I wanted to smoke you out. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I had to make a hard call here. I want to be clear because you implied that, you know, your rhetorical construction at the beginning of your speech

remarks there was you guys... Yeah, lengthy oration was that you guys must be happy. Of course I'm not happy. I'm not happy the Palestinians have to live under a terrorist dictatorship. I didn't say that you guys were happy. I didn't say that, but go ahead. Well, we should...

I know it's not what you meant. But the point is, I'm also not happy that, well, we have tape, that some poor Jewish kid is getting hassled for being Jewish on the streets of Columbia University. Yeah. And that because we're very— Did I say that I was happy about that? No, no. You said you're unhappy. We're all unhappy about a lot of things here.

But it is complex, but you don't have to be on the side of out-of-control anti-Semitic protesters to be against the horror of war in Gaza. Yes, but I think we ought to be explicit about both. And, you know, so when we lionize Fetterman for what he's doing—

You know, I haven't heard him actually address that. Maybe he has. He has. He has. He's been very he's a plain spoken guy and he's been very clear, I think, about the humanitarian situation. But he's also been equally clear about whose fault it is. And this is where I run into quibbles here, which is.

I feel like the White House is like, well, you know, everybody's at fault here for the humanitarians. No, Hamas is at fault. They broke the ceasefire. They started the war. Here's the difficulty. Here's the difficulty. There's no doubt that Hamas is at fault. And Hamas wants to destroy Israel. And that is their sworn enemy.

Okay, so there should be no ambiguity about that. The question is, six months now, almost seven months later, the prosecution of the response...

We are supplying the weaponry for it or much of the weaponry for it. The bombs that are falling there are bombs. And are they being used in a discriminant way, in a surgical way, which would...

reduce some of the suffering? Has enough attention been paid to humanitarian aid? That's what Biden's been pushing for. I'm giving him some credit. He's having success. It was American pressure that kept the Israelis from over-responding to the Iranian attack.

Right. Aid corridors are being opened. I'm going to give Biden some credit on all this, but there's no switch you can throw and stop a war that somebody started who uses human shields as a one tactic and started it as part of a mission to destroy you. Those are very hard people to negotiate against. It's not morally equivalent in my view.

Go ahead, Jennings. I know you want to pile on there. Well, no, I think Mike's got it right. And every time they have attempted to negotiate,

They, you know, Hamas has rejected the terms. And the other day, you know, there was a blind quote from somebody in the White House exasperated that they rejected, you know, an offer. Well, we put everything in there they could have possibly asked for. Well, you know, you didn't put everything in there because the one thing they actually want, you can't put in there, which is the destruction of Israel. That's what they actually want.

And I felt, I just feel constantly like the White House thinks Hamas is going to wake up someday and say, you know what, you're right. We're happy to live here in peace and harmony. And they won't. They will not. I just remind you guys that it was Biden who flew to Washington.

Israel after the attack of October 7th and pledged the support, which has been forthcoming. And even, even amid all of this debate has been forthcoming. Uh, it was, you know, so, you know, I just, I don't think his support of Israel is in, is in question here. His desire to try and, uh,

influence Israel's approach to this, I think is appropriate. And Israel has to be concerned about that and about where they go from here and where this is all leading. So, but let's get back to politics. The politics of it is what I was asking about, because it does seem to me that if what we see on campuses today is replicated on the streets of Chicago in August, it's

That is a problem for the administration. You add to that the problem of migrants in the city and

concerns about that. I'd be concerned about that if I were... No, no, I think they are. I think they're trying to thread a lot of needles here because they see those, you know, I think Scott and I are of the be tougher on the protesters. Net, net, it'll help you politically. I think there's some timidity there because they're worried about the young progressive wing of the party, which is lined up against Israel, and they want those votes because they know they're in a very tight, very tight election.

So they're acting like politicians always act in the squeeze on the geopolitics of it. I think he's doing pretty well, but they see those votes and they're worried. And I get it. And it is a problem. It could get worse. What would help Biden the most, honestly, is to follow Fetterman on one issue. And that is the unequivocal stand against the people who are acting to disrupt American life. You've got people blocking both lanes of the Golden Gate Bridge laying down on the road in front of O'Hare Airport.

You know, in city after city after city. I agree with this. And I haven't heard Biden complain about that or worry about it. You know, they're going into Starbucks, for God's sakes, and yelling at Starbucks. They're screwing with our coffee. They should know what happens when people screwed with our tea. King of England tried that. But Joe Biden has pinned some of his campaign on complaining about candy bars and bags of chips, which is...

This is something that I've heard you say this a million times. When he went after Snickers, you just went nuts.

So to speak, I don't like liars because he lied about Snickers. They're not small. But my but my point is, if you're going to play small ball like that and say this is going to kind of talk to people where they are, what talks to people where they are more than getting these people out of the roads and stuff? Get them out of the air. Yeah. Let me get to my job. I'm working. You know, you want to clear these protests, open a jobs fair. They're all going to run away. I agree. I'll tell you what else speaks to people and their day to day concerns.

the cost of things and, uh, and the tax system works and all kinds of stuff that he's now talking about. Uh, and we talked for months on this years, but months, certainly about, he needed to be more Joe from Scranton than Joe from, uh, than president Biden from the white house and needed to be assigning himself. Oh, it needs to be, uh, uh, let's,

I would say, uh, associating himself with the, um, movement to, uh, bring down costs that go after pernicious interests or, uh, who want to raise costs, not pernicious, but interests that want to raise costs. He's doing that now. Uh,

No, he's lurching in that direction. I totally agree, and it's good for him politically. Let me just make a note, though. I can't tell you how happy it is to have two Republicans on here because normally I get worked over. So, Scott, what are you doing next week? I mean, I'm happy to hold axe. You just keep working the body. I'll hold him back. So good two-on-one unfair Republican thumping here, which I'm enjoying. To your point, though, Biden's creeping forward. It isn't often that you—

clothe yourself in the flag of the party these days. So I'm happy to have this opportunity. Well, they make it hard for me. I've been a general in that army for almost 40 years, so I have an affection for it. The army left you in a foxhole, brother. You're like that Japanese guy in the cave who nobody told the war is over. The party has left.

Where I'm luring him into a false sense of nutcase security. Believe me, we have a massive counterattack coming. Stand by. But but to your point about Biden, it's a kind of a classic political pattern. First, they managed to stop the internal panic with the State of the Union by doing a little better. And people thought not drooling, not forgetting what country it is. That was good. Biden deserves credit for that.

Then Trump is in the spotlight more now. And whenever it's mostly about Trump, it's good for the Biden guys because Trump tends to hurt himself. Now we're going to talk about the case, but he's sitting there like a meek old guy looking, you know, falling asleep. Very good for Biden.

And the Biden campaign, I think, has used this respite after stumble-bumming for a year to finally start to reconnect with motive and the middle-class stuff that is the best card they've got. And that's why you start to see in the data creeping forward a little. I think hopefully they internalized a lesson from their point of view and do more of it.

So good, good, good. Ray, I don't know if this is running on TV or just a digital ad, but it's in the keeping with the whole spirit of the thing. He was in Scranton last week, but let's do a little of the ad that they're running. Scranton is a set of values. We pride ourselves on the importance of family and honesty and hard work. Joe loves Scranton because this was the beginning.

President Biden is my first cousin, and there's almost like a part of him still here in Scranton. We're all middle-class people, hardworking people, and he was part of it. And I'm a longtime friend of President Joe Biden. We go way back before we were in grade school. He never forgot where he came from.

Let me just say 50 bucks says the cousins on the state payroll. But go ahead. When the thing goes on, they strike a contrast with Trump and so on. This is actually what I think turned the campaign in 2020. I think when he started associating himself, you know, with the values of of the town in which he grew up, working class values, when he talked about faith, when he talked about his family.

his connection to military families. The whole convention was about that. I mean, there's a lot of mythology that it was all about the soul of America. I think it was very much when he associated himself with the sort of middle-class values of the place where he grew up that

He started closing in and putting himself in a position to win. I, you know, look, this is going to be a very, very close race. And but but I do think that this is comparative middle class values.

That's the it's it's the right track for him. Jennings, you've been watching, as everyone has these reports from the courtroom that Murphy references in New York. I mean, we have this on YouTube.

unprecedented situation of a former president there. What do you think the impact of all this is, or does it depend on a verdict? Well, as you know, I've long believed that any conviction would drag some cohort of voters away from voting for Trump. It might be small. That's what polling suggests.

It might be small and it may be that'll dissipate over time. But I you know, I and I think let me ask you before you before you go on. Do you think that when people say in polls that they would not vote for him if he were convicted, that they're telling the truth? I mean, is that a hard question? I mean, it's it's a strange one, unless you're like a Trump cultist saying, yeah, I'd vote for him even if he were.

convicted may be a hard thing to tell a pollster. Yeah, I think that there are. Yes, I do think many of them are telling the truth. I also think there are some people who may be telling a lie the other way. You know, I'm going to vote for him no matter what. And when they get in the voting booth, they may change their mind. I particularly think this will affect senior citizens. I think part of the way Biden won in 20, he had a

a little bit of strength among seniors. Still does, according to Bold. And still does. And who are the most likely voters? Seniors. And who are the most likely people in America to remember the before times when, you know, you didn't think that the president would be or should be a convicted felon? So when you think about an election where Biden seems to have strength with the likeliest voters, some of that cohort is seniors. I think they're most likely to have a negative reaction to a conviction vote.

They remember a different time and a different era of our politics, and therefore I have believed that a conviction would hurt Trump somewhat. What Trump has to do on the flip side of this is he's got to get a lot of low-propensity or no-propensity people into the voting booth, registered, and then into the voting booth because right now the relative strength of Biden in these new polls is among those –

most likely to vote. And there's also polling indicating enthusiasm for voting in the election is very low, maybe the lowest it's been in 25 years. And so if you have a low turnout election where the Democrats now control the highest propensity voters, some of whom are seniors,

who don't like the idea that the president, Trump, was convicted, that is a recipe for disaster. We've seen that, Murphy, in these special elections, in the midterm elections, which are lower turnout elections. Democrats have had an advantage. Oh, there's no question. Yeah, if, you know, the question is what happens

what causes it. So if Trump fatigue drives turnout down, the most casual voters tend to be, and this is a reversal of history, a little Trumpier other than in the minority community. So that could help Biden. I mean, Jeff Garron has a tweet out about this Democratic pollster, which kind of makes the point on the Marist poll. If you start to filter out people who aren't that committed to voting, Biden does better and better. But, you know, about the case, I think it is a net negative. I

I think a small net negative because his tribe thinks it's all rigged. Why isn't Hillary in jail? This is all BS. And the Democrats mostly want him in jail without a trial. But what the factor that's striking me, trying not to watch too much of it, trying to be a normal American.

Trump is getting smaller before our eyes. He's looking like a bitter old man. He looks scared, a bit defensive. It's just not a good look for him. Superman, Mr. Strength, is looking weak and cornered. And that's kryptonite for Trump. So I think just the optics of all this are eating away at him. So as long as Biden doesn't go out and tell everybody you're wrong about the economy for the fifth time and everything's great and put the ball back in a court where Trump takes the initiative...

This is a wearing and wearying thing for Trump, and a conviction will amplify it. Well, you can see it in the photos from the courtroom. I wrote a piece in The Atlantic this week.

about this. This is a guy who was raised to believe, raised to believe by his father that rules and laws and norms and institutions were for suckers and for weaklings and that the strong take what they want, however they need to take it. And now he's in this courtroom where he does not control anything, where he is forced to comply with rules, although

You know, he continues to flout them. But within those four walls, he has no control. And the worst thing is a guy who says he's peerless is now subject to the judgment of a jury of his peers. Yeah, Superman ain't so super. And he might get a contempt thing and go spend 48 hours in the house arrest or something. The judge looks like he's close to pop. I don't know if he's going to be convicted or not, but I will take the other side of this conversation, which is what if he is acquitted? No.

No, I was going to ask that next. And he might be. He won't be acquitted, but he could have a hung jury, which he will spin as an acquittal and a vindication. And does that taint all the other prosecutions, which frankly are...

feel more meritorious than this. I mean, I have no doubt that he did exactly what the prosecution said they did, whether he should be prosecuted for it in this case, you know, is for the public to decide. But, you know, the other cases are far more serious.

But this gives him a chance to say, you see, the whole thing was bullshit. The whole thing was, you know. And so I think that's a real risk here that we all speak about this as if he is going to be convicted. It just takes one Murphy to say no.

Yeah, no, and it, right, anything that gives him a restart is gold for him. On the other hand, this ain't the only case. I mean, you know, there's a long list of felonies here. Yeah, but those other cases, the Supreme Court's hearing this case, they're hearing the arguments this week on the community thing. Right, right, right. This is the thing now. So the only one that probably, because the judge...

That Judge Cannon down there in Florida seems like she's going to this cannon is going to torpedo this case, at least until after the election. Yeah, I think what might in the end be the bigger factor than if he's acquitted or not. Well, let me say if he's convicted and acquittal, I'm kind of with Scott. That could be a big reset for him is just going to be the optics of looking like an old dying lion in a net.

And I think it's a television age, man. And I think he's having a real bad time here and he's handling it wrong too. No, I agree. I agree with that now. And then we'll hear how this trial goes forward, but he could be the old line who gets free from the net and looks resurgent. And I think that's a possibility. Well, they're changing his secret service code name to Mangy. So we will see. We will see. If he can ever just break free of, I mean, every day that we see him, he's talking about this judge and the prosecutors and the,

If he ever gets back to just talking about food prices and immigration, he'll be in a much stronger footing. Although that is not going to happen during this trial. But he's got to find his way back to that at some point because obviously that's the ground you want to fight on, not relitigating his past. So if you're the Biden guys, Joe from Scranton is great putting the cousin from the DMV in the ad, a proof of all of it. But what you want to do is deny him.

the Velcro to get out of this if he does get out of it. So what do you do? You do something very aggressive on the border for optical stuff and forget about the identity caucus. For practical reasons, for policy reasons. Right, but get some offense to take his opportunities away and fix the economic message to quit declaring victory when nobody believes it. If they can start to deny that stuff, then progress. Okay, then let's take a break right here and we'll be right back.

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The word is, is that there will be some sort of executive order on the border. It'll probably be challenged right away. But a good fight to have. Man, yeah, they ought to get going on that. I mean. Yeah, yeah. Yesterday. Stay a step ahead. They're getting a respite now, which is why they're doing OK.

But they're not out of trouble. Although they ought to use this interim to do, and I think they tried last week, but they ought to use this interim to put points on the board while Trump is tied down. I think they're hesitating for the same reason they sometimes pull their punches on Israel, because they're worried about this flank. They've kind of recovered somewhat among Democrats and Democrats.

And I think if they go hawkish on the border, all of a sudden, via executive action, I assure you there are voices in there saying, well, we're going to piss off our progressives again. I'm sure that's right. Yeah, they're wrong, but you're totally right. That's how they think. Yeah, I mean, I invite them to come to the convention city and talk to people about this issue because there's a lot of concern. And I do...

You know, I think unaddressed that you're going to have this dual problem of protests about the war and activity around the migrant issue, which is has ripped the city apart. So they really do need to they really do need to move on that issue. Speaking of moving, Murphy, we probably have to hit the bell here for listener man.

All right, if you have a question for the Hacks, it's really easy. All you have to do is email us at hacksontap at gmail.com. Hacksontap at gmail.com. Send us your question. You can also do an Apple voice memo. Keep it not too long, like 30 seconds to use your name. Or you can call our 1-800-OFF-TRACK-BETTING line somewhere in Chicago and wind up a Chicago voter for life. But you can just leave a voicemail there. Good question. We'll play it on the air. But no speeches. That's our job.

Axe gets mad. So all you got to do is 30 seconds of a great question with your name, and you may hear yourself right here on Hacks on Tap. What's the number? I don't know. I can't even remember it, and I work here, but we have a tape. 773-389-4471. I'll repeat it because who can remember that? 773-389-4471.

And again, thank you to our AI friends for creating something that sounds very much like Mike Murphy reciting that number. Yeah, I haven't been on the show in two years, by the way. I'm on a beach. The fact that they could create

in AI that reproduces your idiosyncratic way of thinking, I think speaks to the potential of AI in the future. Well, it's just proof that the most powerful computer in the universe, one can mimic me and two has it right on Israel. But anyway, moving on. Okay. Our first question for Scott from Allen.

Does the unprecedented age of candidate Biden change the traditional view that the vice president designee is a relatively minor contributor to the strength of the ticket? Good question. Good question. And the answer is yes. Biden's age puts...

Kamala Harris squarely in the spotlight of this campaign. You can see that the White House has been putting her out more lately on a variety of issues, most notably abortion. But I expect the Republicans to do the same thing. And they're going to argue, of course, that you're not actually voting for Joe Biden. This is just a way to trick you into having President Kamala Harris. So I do expect that particular pick to be very much

a major part of both campaigns. I'm less certain that Trump's pick will be of any consequence. But for Harris, for better or for ill, she is going to be a major part of this campaign. And it's because Joe Biden is super old. Although if Trump is sitting in Rikers, the vice president will be really busy, you would think. But tell me who you think that person is going to be. Scott, we haven't talked about this in a little bit.

Well, all the all the scuttlebutt is that Marco Rubio and J.D. Vance are advancing in this. I still think Tim Scott makes the most sense and would give Trump somebody on his ticket that I agree. He's a unifying presence. He's got an inspiring story. They're trying to cut into African-American men that base for by. It just makes a ton of sense.

So I don't know what they're going to do. I would pick Tim Scott. But I actually think he's got quite a few people that would be good. I think Elise Stefanik has distinguished herself on holding these university presidents to account. Yeah, you know what, Dan, I've got to stop you there. Yeah, I have to admit, I'm on this train too. She's the devil. She is an insufferable woman.

pony and demagogue. You know, she condemned the Columbia University after they cleared out the 100 protesters for allowing the chaos. I mean, she thinks she's got a good thing here and she's just going to

plow this to death. I remember her when she said you were probably in the White House, Scott. I remember her when she said in the next cubicle over. Look, I like Elise and I think I'm just telling you what's happening in the conservative world. She has distinguished herself on these hearings and dramatically elevated her profile. I don't know if she's a serious contender or not. I'm just telling you she's way more popular and well-known today than she was six months ago.

A depressing thought. Okay. Believes in absolutely nothing, which means, right, she's playing the piano right, and she'll probably move forward in the modern GOP. Yeah, the tune is pretty...

I agree. But so, Murphy, a guy named David and not this David says, dust off your crystal balls. Where will these guys be and when will they be doing and what will they be doing 12 months from now and three years from now? And this is relevant because of what Scott just said. The people are J.D. Vance and Mitt Romney, a person, you know, well.

Yeah, I know J.D. too. He called me. We had a great phone conversation when he was thinking of running for Senate as an anti-Trump Republican. And then the compass spun a little. So he'll probably be having a drink with Stefanik giggling about how not believing anything in politics seems to work.

I think Vance does have a shot at VP, but I think Trump has kind of a feral animal sense of who would be competitive or who would have their own longer-term agenda. So I wouldn't bet a lot, but I would put Vance down the list. I think somebody like a Tim Scott may slither ahead of him in the sweepstakes. But he apparently, Vance, we should point out, is a choice of –

Don Jr. is apparently a big booster of his, if you believe what you're reading. Great endorsement. Anyway, so Vance, I think Vance will be plotting life beyond Trump if Trump loses to Biden and will be pivoting yet again to whatever he thinks will get him the most votes. Mitt Romney will be packing for Winnipesaukee, New Hampshire for the summer. A happy man, free of having to have lunch with Ted Cruz once a week.

in the Senate caucus, but he'll still be in public life. He's not going to go away and be silent. So he'll still be a leading force for good. I think both in the country and in the party, albeit from a bit of an Elba these days, but Mitt's not a quitter. And, uh,

I think you'll be a happy warrior. Somebody posited the other day that Mitt Romney should be appointed head of Harvard University to begin to clean up Harvard. And John Fetterman tweeted it out and said, I co-signed this idea. So Mitt may yet be recruited to clean up one of these failing institutions in the Ivy League. He gets those calls. I remember –

suggesting to his successor, Deval Patrick, who's a friend of mine and a client of mine, after he left office, I said, you'd be a great university president. He said, hey, I'm trying to get out of politics. Yeah. Mitt is always hiding his number because he got called to clean up the Olympics. He did it.

called the governor, senator. The worst call he ever got was from everybody at the top of public life, both parties saying, you really got to be Trump's secretary of state. You got to go have dinner with him. So he's learned to be careful about answering the phone to go clear minefields. But who knows? Who knows? He's a very vigorous guy. And

We'll see what happens. All right. Finally, for David Axelrod from Allison, she wants to know which of Trump's many indictments do you think is the most damning and why?

You know, that's a really hard thing to distinguish. But yeah, you'd have to go to the January 6th indictment, given the assault on the Constitution that that represents, plotting to overturn an election in ways that were nefarious and propagating untruths about the

the fundamental institution of democracy and all culminating in that awful day on January 6th. I think that would be a very damning trial if that trial goes forward. And I think that's why he's desperately trying to avoid it.

What he did with classified documents was appalling to anybody who's ever worked in the White House and unfathomable. And the fact that he tried to obstruct the government from recovering those documents is certainly a serious crime. I don't know that that trial is ever going to

move forward, certainly not in a timely way. And it won't move forward if he's elected and it hasn't been tried before November because he'll just order the Justice Department to stand down. But I do think the January 6th trial is the most significant. And, you know, my concern about the trial in New York, I don't dismiss the notion that he

Broke laws. Jury will decide that. But I said from the beginning, if you have to say the words porn star and novel legal theory in the same sentence, maybe you should think about the prosecution and whether it's wise to go forward. And no, it's clunky. Yeah. And Scott made the point that, you know, it also gives him an escape hatch.

If one juror says no. Yeah. So we'll see. The Supreme Court will rule if they rule. If it takes them months to decide whether a president has absolute immunity, probably this trial doesn't go forward before the election. If they decide swiftly, maybe it will. But we'll. Well, David, the only trial that will really count is at the ballot box in the court of public opinion. And that's my my thoughtful button on our legal show here. Murphy.

You're welcome. There actually was Frank Murphy, a great famous Supreme Court justice, many other things, my home state of Michigan. I want to just end with two quick plugs. I want to thank Jonathan Friedland, our friend from The Guardian, for taking me out to dinner for a bunch of our hack fan British Pauls when I was over in London last week. Jonathan's a great pal of the show. I'm sure they drew you out as got you to share some of your thoughts, too.

Oh, I mumbled a few. They said, what are you going to do to fix Axler on? I said, how long you got? I got a note from one of them saying, I can't believe you got to spend an hour with this guy every week.

So anyway, thanks for that. And don't forget EVRepublicans.org. A lot of cool stuff going on there in the fight to keep the Chinese from taking over the world auto industry, which we don't want. Scott Jennings, always a pleasure to have you, my friend. Look forward to sitting with you at CNN and reading all your words of wisdom. Where are you writing these days?

Well, I've been writing for the Daily Mail, which has been quite an experience. I think I'm going to have one published maybe today on this Fetterman-Johnson conversation that we were having about two guys who are bucking the fringe of their own party and why that's good for America. So see some words in there. All right. We'll look forward to it. Thank you for being here and helping straighten out my podcasting partner.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys have your fun. There's always another day. You get them on the canvas, Murphy. I'm coming off the top rope with an elbow. That's right. Give them the old Kentucky haymaker. Yeah, but take those tights off for crying out loud. You guys look ridiculous. Thanks, guys. I'll see you. We'll see you when we see you. We'll see you next week. Yeah, soon enough. You can't hide.