Episode 383: Todd Anderson: Proven Tips for Better Sleep + Why Mindset Matters For Sleep Health
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Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits & Hustle. Crush it!

First of all, the reason why I like them is the ingredients. You're actually on. This is a video. No, and that's not why I like them. I like them because, number one, they taste good, but that's not even why. I like the ingredients. They do taste good because they look like they would taste bad. And that's why, first of all... It reminds me of a ginger shot. Let me tell you something. The competition to these things tastes like shit. This actually tastes delicious, and the ingredients are like...

top shelf and all great for they're all like adaptogens neurotropics it's actually very good everything in it looks good there's a reason why they're like probably the number one who's their biggest mental performance shot i think ketone iq is probably their biggest competition that tastes well their new one with caffeine tastes way better yeah but it's like rocket fuel it tastes terrible they know it's crazy is the original was 10 times worse oh i know this tastes much better

The original was like unbearable. Yeah, I know. By the way, this is going to be on the podcast. Are you okay with that? Yeah, that's fine. No, I mean, yeah, I remember I was one of the first 500 people to try the first one. And I couldn't even like, I mean, you had to like,

amp yourself up. I know. And that's why, like for me, I like something that will actually be part of my day-to-day life, right? Like if I have to like brace myself to take something, it's probably not the best idea. But something like this, I think actually tastes really good and it does keep you

So I actually been doing these every time I do a podcast, like right before. And when I give it to somebody, I tell, I ask them honestly, I'm like, tell me the truth. Like, do you actually feel more focused? I asked them off camera, not so they're on the spot. And they're like, actually, I really liked them. Can you send me more? Or can I have a few to take with me or whatever? Yeah.

And that's like a true tale sign. I think taste is, I mean, people don't think about taste, but I do feel like if you look forward to taking something, your compliance is much higher. Like gummies. I feel like gummies have taken off in all forms just because everybody looks forward to a gummy. Yeah. It's 100% a lie. So even if it's,

you know, not, it's like more expensive or whatever. It's like, if you take it every day, like there's a value in just being consistent. Well, there's a lot of research and data that actually points to if something doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how good it is for you. If it tastes like shit, you're not going to do it for long-term or consistently. I'm guilty of that. Yeah. I am too. That's why I like- Or convenient. Or convenient. Well, convenient for sure. I like little.

Like little things. Little shots. What we do here, we shake it up. Boom, boom, boom. This is Magic Mind. It is great for not just for your focus and for your brain, but it's just great for energy. And it tastes good. Don't worry. I would never feed you something. That's my first time to ever actually have this. I've seen it a million times. He's a virgin. Get Todd. I've done this before. Oh, that's much better than it looks.

It's like green, so you think it's going to be like nasty, but it's pretty good. It's kind of like peach. Yeah, I'm telling you, it's delicious. My husband's obsessed with them. They also make you – it kind of actually sharpens just your overall –

Like, I don't, it just makes you a little more alert. I need that. I need all the help I can get. Yeah. Well, this is going to be a long-ass podcast, so I wanted to at least give you something to get you, you know, primed and ready. Yeah. All right, let's do it. We did talk to each other for like two hours during...

Hell on the hill that one time. We did. That's how we became friends, actually. We became fast friends. Suffered. We became friends through suffering. You know why you were suffering? Because you had a knee problem. A knee surgery. A knee surgery like two weeks before that. Yeah. We talked, by the way...

Not to correct you, it wasn't two hours. We talked for like five hours. No, because at one point you tried to make it, remember? So then I couldn't do that. That's true. No, I think what happened, we spoke for like 40 minutes and then I kind of went on my merry way. I came back to you for two hours. You were kind of like Bambi at the end. Like your legs were all jello-y. Do you remember? Oh yeah, I remember. I totally remember. That was actually, because I was like,

If I came all the way here, I didn't come this far to come this far. So I was like – You're going to throw a Jesse quote in there? By the way, that's not a Jesse quote. That's an everybody quote. But he says that all the time. Just because he says it. He says a lot of things that other people have said prior. But yes, we're both friends with Jesse Itzler and he does say that a lot. I didn't come this far to only come this far. But I actually say that too. That's in his –

his home gym. Oh, is it? Yeah. I didn't even know that. I do like that saying, and I do say that quite often. It's pretty deep if you really think about it. Well, it's very true. Yeah, for sure. Right? Well,

Maybe not. Depends who you are. I guess it depends who you are. However, this is, I think I was saying to, I was telling Todd before we started, Todd is very likable. You have a very likable quality. He makes friends very easily. You're very, you're like, you go with the flow. You're easygoing. We made, we became friends very quickly. No, you're welcome. We became friends very quickly. I thought I was special. Quickly did I learn that I'm not? No. That you do that with everybody. Yeah.

And so that's okay. I do not talk to people for three hours on a hill. That's not true. There was a lot of other people there. There was a lot of people. But it was kind of like you were kind of stumbling around and –

People were very, very driven to get it done. Yeah, we were. And we were just lollygagging and having fun. We were there for the experience. Yeah, for the experience. The hell on the hill experience. By the way, Todd, what do I call you besides my dear friend? What do we say? You're a sleep expert, a recovery expert? Yeah, recovery. I mean...

I'm obsessed with all things recovery. I'm obsessed with anything that makes you feel better. By the way, I didn't even bring up. So Todd Anderson is on the podcast, just FYI. Not only is he my friend, he started a new company called Dream Recovery, which is sleep tape. You tape your mouth. He's all about, like I said, recovery, sleep. And what I like about you and I think why you're doing well, Todd's really crushing it right now. You really are. I'm trying. I'm trying.

is because you are good at taking information and explaining it in layman's terms that people can really digest and understand. Probably because that's how I need to be explained. Well, it works, right? Your content is very simple. It's very easily digestible. Yeah. And so I'm very proud of you. Congratulations. Thank you. No, you're welcome. So let's start. So if you are like sleep is what you've been focusing on, let's start basic.

Why is sleep so important? Well, it is. It's the only aspect of health and wellness that I think pours into all the other buckets, right? So if you think about like nutrition, exercise, even mental health, sleep has a huge impact on every single thing.

The other ones I think can almost live in a silo where it takes time for them to affect the others. Sleep is almost the foundation of all. So I would say people put like sleep, exercise, nutrition, these are all the buckets of health, wellness, longevity. And I would argue that sleep is almost like the foundation because it doesn't matter how good you're doing at those other things. If you're not sleeping well, it will all crumble down.

Yeah. And it's really the only one that's like that. You know, there's a lot of ways to eat. There's a lot of ways to work out. There's a lot of different ways to manipulate these different variables. But sleep is the one that's very consistent and almost, you know, across the board, everyone has the same needs. Like it's very consistent across everybody, which is rare because like there's so much variety in every other bucket. You know what? I agree, obviously, because sleep,

If you don't sleep well, everything else kind of falls to the wayside, right? Like your mood. Yeah. Like everything. The way you eat. Yeah. You're unable to focus. You can't work. You know what's interesting? Only...

How recently has sleep become a phenomenon in terms of having recognition as the importance it should have had, right? Like 20 years ago, no one really talked about it. 10 years ago, no one talked about it. I started speaking on sleep like probably six or seven years ago, mostly in New York. And companies would ask me, okay, you know, how long is your presentation? Yeah. And they're like, 15 minutes. And I'm like, it's an hour. They're like, how do you talk an hour on sleep? Like there was no interest, no like...

Nobody was even concerned. But it was cool because at that time when I was talking about it, a lot of the stuff that's so mainstream now, people kind of, their minds were blown because no one had ever spoken about caffeine, alcohol. People didn't even know why alcohol.

And either this stuff affected your sleep. Impacted it. Yeah. What was the outcome? So that's what really like motivated me to dive all in on sleep because it was cool that the information wasn't really out there. And then when someone changed their sleep habits, the impact of their quality of life was exponential.

And there's not really anything else you can do that will have that big of an impact. If someone goes from sleeping five hours to eight, they're like a different person. I mean, they literally are a different person. Their brain works in a whole different way. No, that's why they even say, like, if something is happening in your life that's exceptionally stressful or emotionally charged, you always hear people say, you hear like, you know, let me sleep on it before I respond or do the X or Y.

Because that will make a major impact on what your decisions are. You know what's crazy about that? Like there's so much truth to that. And I don't even know why people, when they used to say it, they knew what they were saying. But when we sleep, a lot of our memory is consolidated. And the one thing that's not consolidated, the thing that we don't hold on to as far as memory goes, is the magnitude of emotion. So like if you're very emotional, like you'll remember every single detail about an argument, the facts, why, what you were saying. But we tend to not remember everything

how amplified our emotion was. Like you almost forget. It becomes more of like a logical memory. So if you're ever in like a huge fight and you sleep on it, you'll actually have like a clear outlook on that argument. And a lot of times you realize like you were just really worked up and emotional. And when you write this all out on paper, it wasn't worth getting worked up for. Right. Are you saying also that our...

are, how we react in the first place is more emotional. Definitely. Right? Because of the lack of sleep. Right. Right? Well, yeah. And then naturally, you know, I think a lot of arguments take place later in the day, especially with couples. And

Our anxiety naturally ramps up throughout the day. You know, that's just how our brain works and needs to reset when we go to sleep. So like I tell people, like you actually should go to bed angry. If you get in a huge fight, you're better off. Just go to bed or reset, wake up, talk through it because you won't be as emotional about it in the morning. Like just scientifically, you literally will not store the amount of emotion that you felt the previous day.

That is so true. And I think that this whole idea, that concept should be like flipped on its head like you just did. Like, you know, like never go to bed angry. Actually, you're right. You should go to bed angry because your response and how you react and the dynamic will be so much better if you actually slept well. Yeah. But...

How do you fall asleep when you're angry and stressed? Like, it's hard to fall asleep. That's true. I mean, that would be the argument for, you know, the other side of it. Could you? Can you fall asleep when you're, like, super angry and pissed? I probably could. Me and my wife are pretty, like, I guess resilient when it comes to falling asleep. So we probably could, but I think a lot of people might have to work it out or at least get to a point where you agree that—

that you're going to talk about the next day. I think you have to be on the same page, but... I agree. What was your... Okay, I know your background, but why don't you tell people a little bit about your background to where you came... Like, where you kind of started from to become someone who's such a, like, renowned sleep expert now? Yeah, I mean, so, you know, I played football. I was at Michigan State with the Rams for a little bit.

bit. But throughout that, I was always obsessed with human performance. I mean, it really started like I was an overweight kid and I think I just wanted to be in shape. Like I used to dread pool parties. Like I didn't want to, I would make up excuses prior to summer to like not go to pool parties if someone's birthday hated it. Yeah. So I became kind of obsessed with like, I started working out and I realized I could get myself in pretty good shape. Kind of became obsessed with human performance, but then I was just fascinated by- How old were you when that happened?

That was like middle school. Yeah. So then high school started working out, getting really good shape. By the time I was a senior, I was in like awesome shape and was just obsessed with it. I loved learning. And back then it was like reading muscle and fitness. And like that was that was the only resources out there. And that kind of continued. And I thought I wanted to be like a college strength conditioning coach. So even in college with football, I was always more concerned about the performance side than even like the playbook is just more interesting to me.

And so when I got done playing football, I wanted to go into strength conditioning, went back and worked for a facility that trained like a bunch of pro athletes and then started training people on my own, went to Miami and started working

with equinox and being a manager and then overseeing different areas and through that time i got to spend a bunch of time with dr jennifer martin who's at ucla she's one of the top sleep psychologists and that like just sparked my interest like as soon as i started diving into this stuff way before anyone else was really talking about it it just you know like a light bulb went off and i realized this was a huge gap people don't know about any of this stuff

but it's one of the most important things we can do. And so, you know, I tried to learn as much as I could, took as many courses that were available, which it was tough at the time. And then, yeah, I started speaking to like sports teams and companies and really connecting the dots between the science and the goals people are trying to achieve.

like almost like the liaison, you know, athletes are told all the time, like sleep's good for you, but they're never told why it's good for you in relation to the sport they're playing. So really trying to relate. And even like, you know, I spoke at the New York Bar Association, like their lifestyle is insane. They're working 18 hour days, entertaining clients like nuts. But, you know, you have to speak to them in a way that

that they're going to realize how much more efficient they are that they sleep and how it's going to make them more money and save them time. And so I just became super passionate about it. And through speaking, that's kind of how the dream recovery was born is I would get asked about products. What do I use? You know, what are some tools? I never had awesome answers. Then I met my partners and it was like kind of just

Perfect timing. It all kind of came together. So it became, it was a need. Like I got asked all the time and I would be like, well, you know, there's this stuff on Amazon, but it's not the best. And all of a sudden it just all lined up. So, I mean, I find this interesting because there is, like we said in the beginning, the correlation between sleep and

and weight gain, the correlation between productivity and sleep is so high, right? And it always comes down to like, okay, well, how do I sleep? There are people who no matter what they do, they can't seem to be good sleepers. And then you hear the same adage, okay, well, sleep in a dark room, in a cold room, you know, do all these things, right? Like consistency, like do like have like a routine. Can you...

talk about some things that people who are listening, what can they try to sleep better that has not been talked about and Googled ad nauseum? That may be like something that they didn't even think to even try. I think this is a huge miss in this space. And everyone focuses on all the things you just said. None of that matters if your mindset isn't right surrounding sleep. So if you don't connect your bed with a place of peace and restfulness,

It doesn't matter how perfect your routine is, your mind will take over every single time. So as soon as you're battling with sleep, you're thinking about not being able to sleep, nobody has stressed their way to sleeping better, right? So when you start stressing and not being able to sleep and you're sitting in bed and laying there awake, you immediately, you start associating your bed with that feeling. And our brain is really good with linking places and feelings and sense and different spaces with emotion. So if you start feeling unsettled and anxious because you can't sleep,

your body is going to start being like, oh, this is the bed. This is the place where I feel uneasy and I can't fall asleep. And every time you get into bed, you're going to have that feeling. So I think, you know, taking a step back and being like, how do I create the most peaceful space and keeping that a sacred place? Like for two things, sleep and one other thing. Your friend has a whole podcast about it. Emily can talk about that. Yeah, that's true. Okay. So either...

Sex or sleep. That's it. And that you also have to connect the feelings surrounding those things. So it's not just I go to sleep. It's I actually sleep. And as soon as you start feeling anxious, having thoughts about not being able to sleep and beat yourself up, get up and get out of that space. That's a sacred space. It has to be peaceful. You should look forward to going to that space. And as soon as you start having thoughts beyond that, like you need to exit and kind of reframe.

So, you know, I don't have a TV in my room because what would happen is I would watch TV and that the, it would keep me up for another 45 minutes, an hour minimum. Do you feel like that's something that, like, how do you kind of condition, recondition people not to have that as a place where they...

So this is interesting. So there's been some cool stuff to come out on this, but I totally break the rules on this. I have a TV in my room and I watch TV with my wife every single night before bed. But I'll tell you why, because we've done that for 10 years. We watch a show every single night. What show? Just depends on what we're watching, but

That's like our sacred time. It almost feels like everything's right in the world during those 30 minutes Yeah, and I would not trade that for whatever impact the light or having a TV is in in my room So I think something to point out is with all these sleep health wellness hacks Relationships and how powerful and deeper relationships are are by far the most accurate predictor of longevity so

if optimizing your health is interfering with having deep relationships with friends and family, you need to reassess your priorities because you think you're being healthy, but you're actually not because you're not allowed. There's times when staying up till one in the morning is probably worth it. I'm so glad that you said that. I'm a huge believer in that too. I think that it's gotten out of hand, quite frankly, on what people are doing. They track everything. Everything has to be

monitored, where that in itself becomes such a stressful endeavor, where that has to be impacted on what you're doing. For sure. What do you feel about tracking, like sleep trackers and sleep? Does it actually make your sleep worse because you're like up on edge, like, oh my God, am I sleeping okay? You know,

So there's been an outbreak of what we call like an orthosomniac, which is like ortho coming from the Greek word of like fixing. Like an orthopedic surgeon, they fix things. So orthosomniac is being obsessed with fixing your sleep. And I think with all this data and tracking, it's brought this wave of people that almost try to make

They treat their sleep like running a marathon. Like I can get faster and faster and better and better and better. And that's not really how to approach sleep, right? Like sleep is this thing where like if it's really good and things are going great, that's it. Like you can't continue to press on and lower your pace, right? That's not how it goes. And I think there's an obsession with this because all of a sudden we have this big influx of data of like, okay, sleep is really impactful to our health. It's very important. And then so all of a sudden people are like, well, how do I get the best sleep ever?

And that's just not how it works. It's almost like a yes or no type thing. Do you have great sleep? Yes. Okay, move on. Let's not think about it anymore because the more you focus on it, usually the worse your sleep gets. So I love sleep trackers, but not in the traditional sense. You know, I wear a whoop I have for, I don't know, seven years, I think, but

What I do is honestly don't even look at it to the day to day. I look at the monthly recaps. You can look at the yearly recaps, look at big life changes. Maybe you made a change in your routine or you added in like a sauna, something like that. And you can see on the macro level, like how did something impact my sleep? But there's no reason to wake up, stress out about what that number is going to be and then let this number

that comes from this piece of technology dictate how you feel. You could feel awesome, wake up, that number says 19% recovery and you convince yourself that you don't feel good. And that doesn't make sense. - Well, right, also like how accurate is technology? It's not 100% perfect. - It's getting better and better, but yeah, like I get questions all the time like,

I had this percent of REM sleep and this percent of deep sleep. And I'm like, listen, first off, those are very hard to measure, especially at home with a risk-based tracker. Second off, if you feel good and you're getting the optimal amount of sleep and you have a consistent bedtime and wake time, why are you worrying about this? Yeah, I agree. I mean, listen, I used to do like, I mean, I used to do all of it, right? I used to wear the Oura ring and the Wook and the this and the...

And eventually I'm like, you know what? Screw that. Because I know how I feel when I wake up and if I'm sleeping well. For me to drive myself nuts and create more stress and anxiety over looking at the data of this and that, you can't biohack yourself into happiness. No. You can't. You can biohack yourself into craziness.

but you can't biohack yourself into happiness. And the more you try to like biohack your life, I believe that it actually is more destructive than good, right? Like in everything, like people don't like, it becomes like if you're doing something good,

it's not good enough. You have to make it more precise and more better. And sleep's not like that though, right? I know. It's like, if it's good, it's good. And then walk away, like leave it alone. A hundred percent. You know, like, you know what happens to me and I'm sure everybody can relate and I'm sure you do this too. Like once I'm not, once I start not thinking I'll be able to fall asleep, then I'm thinking about it. My pillow gets hot and then I'm like, oh shit. And then I have to turn my pillow around to get the cold side. A hundred percent. And this goes on for like an hour. And then I start to count sheep.

Which has literally been proven to keep you up longer. Well, yeah, I know. And you told me this. Can you tell people this? Because I think it's such an important, fascinating study. So they literally used to tell people to count sheep, right, to help you fall asleep faster. They did a study. It actually makes you stay awake longer because all it's doing is drawing attention to the fact that you can't sleep. I think originally it was meant to

take your attention off of that. But once you go into that practice, you're like, I do this when I can't sleep. And all you're thinking about is counting these sheep. How many sheep is it gonna be before I fall asleep? And you stay awake longer. So anything that brings attention to the fact that you can't sleep is probably gonna be a deterrent for actually getting good quality sleep. And that's why I recommend like, don't spend time in that space if you're just ruminating.

about not being able to sleep. Just get up and do something different. Yeah, just get your mind off it. Even if you go in the other room and there's like a TV show that's relaxing, I know it's light and all that stuff, but that might be a one-off thing, right? So like a couple hours of sleep one night is way less impactful than all of a sudden associating your sacred place of sleep with anxiety and the feeling of being uneasy about sleeping.

So I'm going to give you my number one sleep tip. Okay. Sleep hack. Because I don't have a TV in my room. I told you, but that's more like logistics in terms of where to put it.

Don't ask where to put it and all that stuff because we don't have walls. They're all like windows. It's a whole thing. Tough life. Yeah. Just so many windows and a floor to ceiling, so I just can't. That's not what I pointed. So I use an iPad, right? And I only use it when I really can't fall asleep because there are two. So my number one sleep hack, there's two shows that just bring me joy.

if I watch them, and that's the Golden Girls. Oh, wow. And that's Frasier. Okay. And if I watch one of those shows, it brings me back nostalgic. Like it brings me back to like years ago when I was a young kid.

This is a great point, yeah. And I just get happy. And it just, I watch an episode, it brings me joy, and I fall asleep. And it takes away any angst of the day. And by the way, I want to shout out to Dave Rubin because I know you know, Dave Rubin, that you're the same way with Golden Girls. We have this like, we bonded over this thing. Do you know who Dave Rubin is? Yeah, I don't know him. Oh, okay. Well, anyway, I love him because, you know who he is? He's a political guy. Yeah, okay. And he came on the podcast and we had like,

That's how I saw him. That's how I knew. Oh, he's not on yet. He wasn't on yet. I mean, he was on, but I never aired it. What? Then you post a story or not? I did. I did. I did post a story about him, yeah, because he could understand it. So the truth of the matter is, like, if something brings you joy and happiness, it will help you fall asleep better. So there's some actually good stuff on that now. So they did this study with the light, like blue light, right? There's an explosion of these blue light blocking glasses. Yeah.

And the data on like, you know, its impact on sleep was, it wasn't like strong correlation. It was relatively weak. Well, now some new stuff come out and what they're realizing is really the more impactful thing is how,

intense your connection is with the content. So like if you're, if you're viewing something that's, that's really emotional or really like invigorating to your brain that you're, you're dialed into, that's going to be more impactful than the actual light, if that makes sense. Yeah, totally. And there's also on the flip side, I would venture to say, and I think I'm, I'm, you know, in this bucket, like if there's something like Golden Girls that's relaxing and you associate with those positive emotion, I would bet that might be worth actually having the light.

And when you think about routine, like you think about how embedded, how deep-rooted those emotions are, that's more powerful than like a little bit of light in your eyes. I would venture to say this is just going off of trying to piece things together. But I think when you look at the psychology of things, like psychology and just how you feel emotionally is usually a lot more powerful than any physical reaction. Totally. It puts you in a different headspace. Which is really, like I said, that's the most important thing about sleep.

That's why when you said I smiled because I think blue light, shmoo light. I think at the end of the day, if you're in a good headspace and you feel peaceful and joy and calm, calm is a big one, then you'll fall asleep much easier. So tell me about staying asleep because I think a lot of people have that problem. Yeah, I think a lot of people. Well, it's not abnormal to wake up in the middle of the night, so…

No, but I mean like not to go to bed, pee, whatever, but like... For sure. Well, so that's, I think that's what you have to think about is, okay, first off, if you're waking up four or five times, that's not normal. And think about how many times and why you're waking up. So a lot of times sleep issues don't show up as sleep issues at all. It's really stress management. And if you're waking up worrying about the same thing over and over and over again, like that's a good like indication you should probably talk to somebody about that, right? Like you should...

Therapy is a great option, but if there are issues and stressors in your life that are repetitively waking you up or keeping you up at night,

That has nothing to do with your sleep. And then the other thing is like— That's a really—can you say that again? Because I think that's super important, right? People assume is that they have bad sleep hygiene, right? But yet it's actually something else in their life that's just kind of keeping them up that they have to address. Yeah, it's like stress management. And they always mask each other. And I think what's unfortunate is people think, I can't sleep. I can't go back to bed. I have a sleep problem.

And then they go on the route of supplements and medication to address sleep, and they don't address the stressors in their life. But most of the time, like if you're fulfilled in what you're doing in life and you have great relationships, people tend to sleep a lot better. I think that is such a great point. This is why I like you, because I think that a lot of other sleep people really scientifically talk about sleep at a scientific level, right? But what you're doing is you're humanizing it into like actual, like,

life, right? Like why you would, like why sleep is actually important for your well-being and like what actually other things besides a cold room keeps you asleep. Because I think that's a very good point. And then what happens is I've seen this so many times with my friends because I actually sleep okay most of the time, but

When I do have something that's going on in my life and that keeps me up and then I'm not sleeping and it can also go on for too long, I think, oh my God, I'm not sleeping well. So then what you end up doing is you take the melatonin or you take the magnesium or my friends, the ones who have really high stress, they take, what do you call it? It's like a pharmaceutical. It's like a big one. Ambien? Ambien. And then they can get addicted to Ambien and it becomes unbearable.

A rabbit hole. Cycle. A horrible cycle. Yeah, and I think you have to look at, you know, strategists.

Stress is like the kryptonite for sleep. And foundationally, just when we look at life as a whole and what causes stress, like if you don't have purpose in what you're doing every day and you don't have the right people around you, those two things, you're gonna add significant amounts of stress to your life. So how do people expect to sleep well if the biggest things that create happiness in our life aren't in place? You're obviously gonna have huge amounts of stress and we know immediately you're gonna be impacting sleep. So I think a lot of times, like,

Hopefully, when people think about having a sleep issue, why is that happening? What thoughts are happening? And peel back those layers. And a lot of times it's super foundational. And sometimes you might need to make a big change in your life. Maybe you're not around the right people, but it can be a really good, almost magnifying glass to reevaluating.

Yeah. I think that's so true. People also turn to alcohol or alcohol.

Yeah. To kind of help them fall asleep. Which also makes sense. Like, you know, it does knock you out, right? Like it's sedating. So, you know, on paper, you know, you're like, oh, I fall asleep faster and I wake up and I felt like I was knocked out. So you assume that it's better sleep, but it's the opposite. So what happens with alcohol and sleep? What's the effects? I mean, alcohol completely changes the architecture of sleep. So, you know,

you know, it's sedating. So when you think about it, it makes sense people like it because you fall asleep faster. Same with THC, but you fall asleep faster. And what it's doing is it's just not really allowing your body to get into those REM cycles. And REM cycles are important for basically resetting our mind, resetting our emotional stability and our ability to reason without emotion, in a sense, reset our emotion, emotional intelligence. So if you're eliminating those REM cycles and you think about the reason people turn to alcohol,

creates this cycle you know you're not gonna be able to reset from an emotional perspective but when you have the alcohol the majority of the first half of the night you almost don't have any rem cycle or yeah no rem cycles and as your body is metabolizing this alcohol when it's done doing that it tries to make up for it and you go into these like crazy deep or long rem cycles and you wake up

feeling like you're in this great sleep. But really all you're doing is bouncing around in these lighter stages of sleep and you're actually waking up quite a bit. It's just for usually it's really short so you don't even remember it. A lot of times people will be like, "Oh, I didn't wake up one time." But if you actually look at what's going on in your brain,

A lot of times it's very wakeful sleep and it's just for a split second. But your brain really isn't having the chance to get into those cycles, those REM cycles that are so important for resetting every day. What's worse for you, alcohol or THC for sleeping? You know, it's interesting.

because like from a, just, just looking at the two, like alcohol in regards to like cancer, you know, causes seven types of cancer. THC doesn't, it hasn't been shown to do that at all. So I think just, if you're looking at two substances, alcohol is pretty horrible for you, but with sleep alone, if you isolate them, the,

They kind of have some similar traits. You know, they both affect those REM cycles. And THC is a little different because, again, it's sedating. They both are sedating. But it seems like the first couple nights, they might have a positive impact. You might have more deep sleep and, you know, have good quality of sleep. But then afterwards, when you're chronically using it, it goes the other direction.

and you tend to not have as many REM cycles and it creates this lighter stage to sleep. So it's kind of weird, but they almost do the same sort of thing. I think a lot of times THC is associated with good sleep, but night after night, even though you're falling asleep faster, it doesn't mean the quality is where it should be.

Anytime you're changing the structure of your REM cycles and how our body flows through that natural rhythm, usually not a great thing. Our body likes to have these rhythms and have a reason how they adjust throughout the day. Same with our circadian rhythm, how light affects things. Even our breathing is a rhythm. And so our body tends to like to have control. And anytime those are thrown off...

it's going to show up somewhere else. It's going to be impacted in some way. So, by the way, do you do any of that stuff then? Because you're such a... I mean, I drink from time to time, like I said. But I would say, I mean...

Does one glass of wine affect your sleep? It does. But it depends when you have it. So I think what I've done over the years, just knowing how this is impacting sleep, is I think about like how much am I going to have and when I'm going to have it. So, you know, good tips with like having, if I'm going to have a glass of wine or two, having it before dinner as opposed to after dinner or with dinner makes a huge impact. It gives your body time to metabolize it. And then even like if you're going to have, let's say a crazy night, right? A lot of times, you know,

there's not really a difference between four and six drinks as far as your experience, if you slow it down a little bit or, you know, cut it off towards the end of the night. But when you look at how it impacts your sleep and the long-term effects, you know, if you eliminate a couple of drinks, you know, 10 times throughout the year, that's a huge difference. And so I think just bringing the awareness to it and just having a little intention between or about what you're doing makes a big difference. As soon as you, you know what it's doing, I think you, you,

rethink every time you order a new drink. Exactly. Just being cognizant of what you're doing. Yeah. What about caffeine then? Because I feel like caffeine, you can get very, your body acclimates to it. Like if I have coffee, like I do it now more habitually when I wake up, I'll have coffee. But if I drink coffee at like five or six o'clock, it doesn't really impact me at all. Or I was going to say, is that just what I think? Is it, what does it do to my body for sleep or for everything else? I mean, caffeine's interesting because it

You feel it quick, right? Like, so it peaks at like 45 minutes, but it stays with us for a long time. You know, half-life is five, six hours, which means, you know, you're only metabolizing half in six hours. So a lot of times people are just having caffeine in their system all the time. You know, if you have like 300 milligrams of caffeine, for example, spread throughout the morning, like between eight and two, you'll have like 30 milligrams left the next morning, like 8 a.m. Really? Yeah. It really stays with you.

You know, what's crazy is like if you have an espresso martini, caffeine will – or alcohol will double the half-life of caffeine. It's almost like 10 to 12 hours. So I think that's like the trendiest drink right now, you know? It is. So it's funny. People don't even realize like that. You want to impact your sleep, dial up an espresso martini. Rebovaca too, but I think – if you have a Rebovaca, I think that's the effect that you want. But I think a lot of people are ordering espresso martini. It is super popular right now. I noticed that too. Like a –

A lot of times if you're a nice restaurant, they'll have decaf espresso, which is a way better option. That's a really – actually, I think that's – yeah, but people are not doing it for that. I never trust it though. I'm always like, is it really decaf? Does decaf also have caffeine in it a little bit? It depends. Yeah, probably a little bit, but 200 milligrams – well, you're not going to have that much, but 100 milligrams in a shot of espresso is way different than maybe 15 with a decaf. They take a majority of it out.

I mean, how much caffeine do you allow yourself a day? Do you drink a lot? Yeah, like probably 300 milligrams. But I try to really front load it. So I'm going to do it. It's like. In the morning. 8 a.m., yeah. How about other things that can help sleep? Like I know you're a massive sauna person. Love it. Yeah. Right? Any heat.

Heat, me too. I love heat. Yeah, sauna is like a, you know, it's a luxury. You know, most people can't have a sauna at their house, I would say. But any heat, like sauna has awesome health benefits, you know, Alzheimer's, dementia. But for sleep, isolated sleep, it's really just about heating your body up and warming up your core temperature. So hot tub, bath, hot shower, all those are just as effective and they can be really useful. Which is interesting because that's like a, like, isn't that kind of like counter, you

counter to what people say like you should be sleeping yeah in a cold environment but your body's core temperature should be so higher with this well so what it does is if you raise your core temperature your body reacts it like overcompensates just like i need to cool myself down so it starts to cool stuff down the other thing that happens is it dilates your blood vessels and your extremities so your arms and your legs so there's a rush of blood flow to your extremities which cools

Your torso your core down and you're able to drop your temperature faster so you go from like a really high body temperature and Then you go from that this great blood flow into a cool room and you cool down super quickly and are able to fall asleep fast and

I like that. So it's like a reverse reaction. And I should tell people, like, by the way, you don't have to have an expensive sauna at your house. But there's all... I have one over... I have this one here. I have, like, an indoor portable one. I have one outside, too. I have a big one, too. I was going to say, that's quite the combo. I have a combo because I'll tell you why. I like this one because...

Shout out to Therasage because it's amazing. It's an infrared indoor sauna. It's like a little area because I can keep my head out of it. And so it doesn't ruin my hair. Or the hair. Right. Or my eyelashes when I have them. So this just gets my body sweaty and sweating. Yeah. I'm a traditionalist. I go for the old school hot sauna. I know. Well, yours is like crazy. You have a barrel, right? I have two. I have a barrel.

I have the new cabin by Sisu, and then I have the barrel. What do you mean a cabin? What do you mean? It's like a square. They just came out. It has glass on the front. That's what I shoot the podcast in because of the glass. I couldn't shoot in the barrel because it's so dark. Oh, so how hot does that one get? Same, 230.

It rips. Can it like burn your brain or overheat your brain? I'm not even joking. Yeah. Yeah. You don't want to stay in like way too long. Well, how long can you stay into that in that? At 2.30? I mean, 10 minutes would be really, really hard.

It's also – in that one, you're a little higher. So, like, you know, heat rises. So, if you're up a step, your whole body is in, like, the really hot air as opposed to a barrel. You're on the ground. So, like, 230 in a barrel is a little cooler than in, like, a cabin style. Holy crap. Like, I –

You're going to feel it one day in the podcast. I know. What am I doing? So Todd actually started a podcast that basically he wants to torture people, literally torture people in the sauna. It's whoever can withstand, what, every minute in that crazy sauna while you ask rapid fire questions? Yeah, it's beat the heat. And then, yeah, so it starts at 160, ends at 230. Every five minutes, it goes up 10 degrees. And so if you make it, you beat the heat. And then there's five- How long did you say it was? The max is 30 minutes.

So you're going to make people stay 30 minutes into that 230-degree sauna? Well, it starts at 160. It gradually gets hotter. Okay. Well, by the way, at 160, I'm hot. That's a different heat, though. Infrared's a little different. It is different. Can you explain the difference? I know you're not here for saunas, but I do think it's important. Yeah. So infrared is...

is basically heating up the molecules in your body, like some of the water molecules are vibrating in your body. So it almost heats inside out. It takes time for that to happen and heat you up, where traditional sauna, the air is much, much hotter. And so it almost heats you up from the outside in. They both take time, right? Because air doesn't transfer heat very well.

It just doesn't like it. It's like, you know, if you look at a thermos for the most part, there's usually air pockets in there or a vacuum because it doesn't transfer heat. So it takes time for your body to heat up. But in general, the same thing is happening. It's just the type of heat and mechanism type of waves are essentially different. But the air temperature in a traditional sauna is much hotter. So it's weird. Like in traditional sauna, you walk in, you're like it.

it's hot and you know exactly what you're getting into. Infrared sauna, it's kind of sneaky. You're like, you know, you're like 10 minutes in the first 10 minutes, you're like, this is nothing. I'm not even hot. And then it's like, all of a sudden you just start pouring sweat. That's what happens to me. Yeah. Cause it literally is heating you from the inside out. So like when, when you're getting heated traditionally, your skin is reactive to sweat. So it happens quicker. So I think your body is almost like, you know, slow to react because it's temperatures rising without like

the the sensation of it being hot on your skin if that makes sense yeah so isn't that better for you the infrared uh it's it's never like so we have some really awesome data on saunas 40 year long studies done in finland and that's really the gold standard in sauna studies yeah we have and so those were all done during traditional you're using traditional saunas now that doesn't mean that infrared is not as good but just means right now like if you had to place a bet on what's

going to work. We know traditional saunas work. I think just on the mechanisms of an infrared sauna, I'm sure it has the same outcome. I would guess. There's a lot of studies being done right now. But the one thing that the infrared is not as good for is if you do like contrast therapy just for the experience, because it's like you said, it takes a while for you to heat up. So like if you go in a really cold water and you think I'm going to run an infrared sauna and warm up, you're going to be cold for a minute. That's 100% true.

That's why it's really hard for me. Like I have my cold plunge out there. Honestly, like doing that hot cold thing doesn't work with the sauna side at all. It's like a joke. Like you need like 20 minutes to heat up. Oh, easy. I mean like for 30 minutes, I'm like, all right, I guess now I'll go into contrast. It's like doesn't have the same effect in terms of just in terms of efficiency. Yeah, like Remedy Place has like a

contrast room you can rent out and they put an infrared sauna in there and it's like I think you have like an hour and a half and it's like if you do one sauna and then cold and then by the time you warm up again the hour and a half is over because you've got to be in there for like an hour well I was going to say if they have a room like I think why don't they just put a sauna like one of those barrels in there for sure they should I think they probably would if they have a sauna

If they knew. If they knew, go back. Well, yeah, because it's like, I don't know. In fact, actually, the one I have outside, for a while, actually, because it takes so long to get to 170, where I actually feel it, feel it. I'm like sitting in there. I'm like, okay. It takes a long time. I used to actually, when I had infrared, I mean, there's pros and cons. The benefit of infrared, too, is a lot of times you don't need to...

connected straight to your circuit breaker like it's a normal plug okay so i used to have one because i had it on a balcony when i lived in a high rise and i used i put like a extra heater inside like a space heater and the infrared because one it takes a while to heat up and two like i do like the feeling of it being hot me too so it takes a minute that's a good idea though maybe i should put a space heater in mine outside that's a really good idea when i want to ruin my hair of course but that's a whole other well it's not worth that it's not

Definitely not. I only go in it, it sounds so crazy, if I know I'm going to be washing my hair. Any girl can relate. Maybe I'll do it the day before and that day. So it's like only so often I can really use it. That's why I love this indoor one. Foundation of happiness is...

purpose, people, lashes, and hair. And good hair. So if you're biohacking interferes with any of those. And it's absolutely not good for your longevity. Exactly. 100%. Stress will be added. 100%. Okay, so magnesium versus melatonin for sleep.

Is there anything that you want to tell us about that? Magnesium. I love magnesium. You do? I like magnesium threonate, like momentous. That's what's in their sleep packs. But that was developed by some neuroscientists across the blood-brain barrier. So when you think about sleep and the brain and resetting, that's going to be the most impactful on the brain. There's a bunch of other forms of magnesium, but in general... That's a good point because people...

always ask me, well, what about magnesium glycinate and this one and that one? What's the difference? Yeah, it's net positive, right? Like all magnesium is useful. Some are more bioavailable. I specifically like the three and eight version because I do tend to take it before bed and it's

a little more calming, I experienced just because it's impactful on the brain. But I mean, blood work is always a great place to start too, because there's quite a few people that are low in magnesium and it impacts so many functions in our body. It's not just like sleep or being calm. It's across the board of super important molecules. So it's like, I always tell people to start with blood work, right? And even if you feel awesome, like you need a baseline. And I think eventually,

like a sleep study will be the new blood work because it's kind of the same thing. For me personally, you know, I had moderate sleep apnea. I had no idea. Thought I slept great. And then I got a sleep study done and had moderate sleep apnea. And the only reason I got that done is because I felt so much better doing the mouth tape that I was like, why do I feel so much better? So I did one with the tape, one without the tape and realized I had like full blown moderate sleep apnea. The doctor would have recommended the CPAP, the whole deal. Really? And I did it with the tape and it worked.

fixed everything. How long did it take? That was only two nights of one, two nights of the other, back to back, one with the tape, one without. Wow. So I was taping for about a year before I did this study because I was like, all right, let's really see what's going on because it changed my life. I mean, I felt so much better when I started doing it. I didn't wake up as much. I slept deeper. I felt way better in the morning. And

You know, I wasn't really positive what was going on. So eventually I tried to figure it out. And, you know, it basically, yeah, I had this apnea going on and it was totally alleviated. Not, you know, that's my experience. I'm not saying that's what you should do. But my point is get a sleep study because you've only slept as yourself, right? Like you've never experienced what anyone else feels like in the morning. You don't know. Like, and you're also sometimes not aware. Like now, if I don't use the table, wake up and my mouth is really dry.

Well, I was always having that. I just was so used to having a dry mouth in the morning. It didn't even like dawn on me. And as a kid, I used to brush my teeth like a million times, like three times a day because, you know, I always didn't want to get cavities. And I'd always have a cavity. And then looking back, it's probably just because my mouth was open all the time. So you can get cavities from having an open mouth? Yeah. Yeah. So why? One of the big factors in breaking down the enamel in your teeth is the pH level and how acidic your mouth is.

So, you know, like water is like seven, that's like neutral-ish. And anytime it drops below five and a half, most dentists will say that's the acidity is really breaking down your teeth at a fast rate. And a lot of times when your mouth is open at night, it's in the threes, like 3.6, 3.7 pH, super acidic just from having your mouth. So when you think about the microbiome of our gut, it really starts in our mouth. And that's all that bacteria, bacteria,

is all being impacted by having an open mouth. And we're seeing more and more, a lot of dentists are on board with the mouth tape because yeah, like the rate at which your teeth are getting broken down accelerates quite a bit. - Wow, I didn't even notice. I didn't know that. - Yeah. - So there's so many other reasons

this mouth tape. Yeah, yeah. I mean, jaw structure too, you know, like your bone structure takes shape of whatever you're doing. Our body's adaptable. Right. So what does that mean then if you... Yeah, you think about your mouth, especially as prevalent in kids, they've done studies, but when your mouth is open, right? Right. It kind of creates a shape that's a less, you know,

structured jaw. So if your mouth is shut, your jaw will slowly take shape and replicate that position. The more and more you're in that position. So people tend to get a sharper jawline over time when they're nasal breathers.

Are you serious? Yeah. I mean, there's really cool studies with kids because kids grow at such a fast rate. It almost like accelerates the data, if that makes sense. So you can see a big difference. And you can almost, you know, once you start looking at people, you can kind of tell how people breathe based on like their jaw structure. So if you're more defined jawline. Not everybody. You know, obviously there's a lot of genetics. But yeah, it will definitely make a difference one way or the other over an extended period of time.

Really? Which makes sense. I think about anything you do, like think about your knees and hips, like you're doing repetitive motion. All the time. Of course. It takes them. Yeah, it adapts. Your body adapts. It's the same thing. If you're in a position for eight hours a night, it's going to adapt and make it easier for your body to be in that position. So if you're like this, you won't have as much of a – I'm more vain, so I'm curious. I won't have as much of a structured jaw. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, well sign me up. You sent me a lot of sleep tape. Just one pack, like one sleep tape. It's a month, yeah. This is all you. This is the anti-aging formula. I know. What are you trying to say, Todd? Do I need anti-aging? No, but you're 20. You want to stay 20. I know, exactly. By the way, anti-aging is like a terrible word. You should say pro-aging because we all want to age. What's the alternative to age? Staying 20.

That's what I want to do. That's true. I do too. But like anti, like I'd rather like keep on living than not. We'll fix that on the packaging. But yeah, basically, you know, a lot of, especially females have skincare routines and the tape is tough because it...

needs to be on a dry surface to stick well so we put you know collagen biotin vitamin e vitamin d aloe stuff that moisturizes your skin it's good for your skin in the adhesive so it's kind of the best of both worlds also made in the u.s only u.s made thank you thank you for pitching it and promoting it um how about sleeping positions does that affect your sleep

Yeah, definitely. I think it depends on, the hard part is like everybody has different issues, you know? So like if you have orthopedic issues, for example, like a shoulder, that's tough because the side, like side sleeping seems to be majority of people sleep on their side. It's also the least amount of snoring. Wait, majority of people sleep on their side? Yeah. Interesting. Not their stomach? About 50%. 50%? Yeah. How many sleep on their stomach versus back? Back is the least. And I think stomach is like 30%.

they're going to get different data, but about half is on our side. So what are you going to say about that? So, you know, it depends on like your lens, right? So it's like on your back from orthopedic perspective is probably the best such anatomical position. Like it's,

it's very safe for your joints. On your side, from a breathing perspective, it's pretty efficient. It's going to be less snoring, better for sleep apnea. But when you think about like your shoulder and your neck and stuff, there's kind of like a lot of room for issues. So I think it's,

okay, what's your main goal, right? And then figure it out from there. But rule of thumb, like side sleeping is probably your best bet. One thing with the side sleeping though is like, I'm a big fan of like, kind of like the squared off memory foam pillows because you want to make sure your neck is aligned, which can cause some issues, right? So if it's a rounded pillow, it's hard to really get the right height and having a correct height pillow. So, you know, really having that distance from your shoulder to your head,

being similar to your pillow height, right? Like my pillow height should be higher than your pillow height, right? Like if I had your pillow, my head would be tilted a little bit, so. How tall are you? 6'3". 6'3". Yeah. Okay, what about, so you're saying sleeping on your side is probably the most beneficial. Yeah. I've always heard that sleeping on your back is the most beneficial. Like I said, it depends on your approach, but from a breathing perspective, that causes the most snoring. If someone has apnea, which

Well, right now about 60% of people breathe out of their mouth. That's the studies coming out. So the chances they snore or have apnea are much higher if they're breathing out of their mouth. So I'm just saying in general, on your back for a lot of people causes their airway to be in a more compromised position.

Interesting. So I sleep on my side. So that's interesting. I feel like back was always promoted because from your face getting puffy. I was going to say. The inflammation. Yeah, yeah. I think it was more of a beauty thing than anything else. And females tend to do better with it because they have a lower chance of snoring and having apnea just in general. If they're on their back. Just across the board. Yeah, but I think it's more comfortable. It's much more prevalent in men.

- Tell me more about that. - Yeah, I can't sit on my back. I feel like I'm in a coffin or something. I'm just like-- - It's so uncomfortable. - I hurt my back.

And for a while, that was the only way I could sleep. And it was pretty torturous. What happens if you wear a mouth guard? Can you wear a mouth guard with this tape? I guess it's fine, right? Yeah, there are a lot of people that do that. Double it up. Yeah, because a mouth guard is kind of like, some people have a hard, you know, you can't really control your mouth when you're sleeping. So sometimes it moves around. So this can be useful to combine with it. Because I'm a grinder. I'm sure you are too. The tape is useful. We have a lot of people that message us that it helps with grinding, which that's, like, I wasn't,

you know, 100% certain about because, you know, it doesn't really totally like make sense that it would fix it. But I'm talking hundreds of messages about that. That it helps with the grinding? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I think when I was asking you earlier about melatonin and magnesium, we talked about magnesium, but I don't think you mentioned melatonin. Yeah, melatonin's a...

it's tricky, right? It's like, it's a, it's wild. It's a hormone, right? So it's, it's producing our body. But how did melatonin become this idea that melatonin helps you sleep? Because I was like, for me, if it is a hormone, how does that work? It's like a triggering hormone, like our circadian rhythm. So throughout the evening, it's meant to like with the absence of light, it's meant to ramp up throughout the evening to make us, you know, fall asleep. But

What's wild is like a lot in Europe and stuff, a lot of times you have to be prescribed it. A lot of countries. I know. It's a hormone. Like it's, you know, there's not a lot of hormones you can just grab over the counter. And the good thing is with it though, there's like not a ton of negative side effects from like taking it.

I think that's why it's so readily available. But why not? Like, why is there... If it is a hormone, shouldn't there be side effects with it? Yeah, the receptors, like the way it's absorbed, it's like when you have too much, it's not like it throws you all in a whack like a testosterone or estrogen. It just goes unused. And some people are using like crazy amounts of it nowadays. But the reason I...

tend to shy away from it is not because of the results more is the thought behind it because everybody wants a quick fix right and then all of a sudden you're dependent on this thing and you think this thing is going to help your sleep and you know you're not doing all the behavior stuff to actually create a good environment like when you think about melatonin most people have a

can produce a great amount of melatonin if they just control the amount of light in the evening and create a routine that winds down and they stop stimulating their brain. But people don't want that. They want a quick fix and they just go to like a pill or a supplement. Right. That's why we don't have a sleep supplement is because I just don't love the idea behind the

the thought, usually people just jump right to that instead of thinking about like, how are my stress levels? Like what's my routine look like? You know, what, what is my day to day nighttime routine? What am I eating? What time am I eating? All the things that can really impact sleep. I just want a quick fix. And also I guess with sleep tape though, is that's not really a quick fix, right? Because, and boy, you're not ingesting it. That's the first part. Hopefully not. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

But yeah, I mean I think what it does, you know breathing is so powerful and I think a lot of times people are Turned off by breathing in general. They don't give enough time to actually like feel the difference And so it's almost like bumpers to it makes you nasal breathe makes you relax and when people are stressed That's just gonna calm you down in general A lot of people feel really relaxing because it's the first time throughout the day They're probably breathing out of their nose. And so that calms you down and yeah it it also does create

a bit of a routine, right? Because you can't talk anymore. Yeah. And it kind of creates this subconscious, like once I put this on, I fall asleep. That's why we love masks too, because you can't be on your phone when you have a mask on. Especially for college teams, it's insane. People are just on their phone, Snapchat. Snapchat until they literally pass out of their phone. But then the sleep mask creates this routine. They don't even really realize what they're doing, but it creates this nighttime routine just because you

you can't get back on your phone. Right. So like a couple of good things is, so that's a great like circle back, right? Like terms of like ways that people, what some ways that people could try to sleep better that we haven't heard before is maybe trying to sleep mask. I love the sleep mask. And the sleep tape. Yeah. Sleep masks are, I would say underrated big time because the mask is,

People love blackout shades. I know we shouldn't have light, all this stuff, but you can't take that with you. The mask is cheap and you can literally replicate the environment anywhere you go. You go to a hotel, whatever you want to do. If you're an athlete and you go on the road, you have control. You took something that was uncontrollable and you made it controllable. So I love that. And the tape is awesome because I think just the breathing in general, when you calm down your breathing, because when you're breathing out of your nose, you're forced to calm down. You don't realize it.

But, you know, our breath is like the steering wheel of our nervous system. And people don't realize how quickly it will calm your nervous system down and downregulate it. You know, it's also great. I just realized when you were talking and saying that, the sleep tape can probably be a really great mechanism for people with anxiety. 100%. Like forget about the sleep part. Yeah. Just putting that on your mouth because it will force you to breathe better.

And when people have anxiety, it's hard to convince them, like, just breathe, like, do this protocol. That's hard. But if you just throw some tape on, even if you go for a walk, it's insane. Like, it's like this less, not invasive, that's not the right word. You don't have to be as intentional. And it just forces you to physiologically calm down. And you don't even have to think about what's happening. It just forces you to breathe in this calming way. Will you send me some more of this? Yeah, for sure. How many come in this? 30 a month.

Oh, wow. And you use this every night? Yeah. I mean, I'm habitual. I literally, it was almost like self-serving. I mean, I created it for myself. And I was like, I know if I'm having this issue of not finding a good one, that there must be a bunch of other people. Wow. Okay, I have another question for you. Another myth or non-myth. Is it true that everybody should get eight hours of sleep?

- Yeah, pretty much. I mean, the amount of people that can function off of six hours of sleep is less than 1% in the population, yeah, optimally. And it's actually probably more. So they did this study last year, it was at Harvard in Japan, and it was a pretty cool study. The average age, I think, was 30.

They took everyone, they let them get acclimated to having the ability to sleep as long as you want. You can sleep up to 14 hours. So that's trying to find the optimal amount of sleep. So they brought them into the lab, they let them get acclimated for a few nights, and then they were like, sleep as long as you want. And the average was about eight and a half hours. So that's actually where it ended up being, which is more than thought.

So it's if you're someone that's like I really need like eight maybe even more. That's actually not weird That's that's the norm when we look at it But what was interesting was almost everyone in the study was getting over seven hours of sleep when they came in in the first few nights Most people slept ten hours. So they were they were even though they're sleeping over seven hours They were chronically under slept and their body was trying to make up for it So that's a good like litmus test. So if you ever go on vacation and and

kind of stress-free and you can sleep as long as you want if you're sleeping like 10 hours or you you feel like you can't sleep 10 hours you're probably chronically underslept

Wow. Well, I thought it was the opposite because I'm habitually used to waking up so early. There's part of the circadian rhythm too. I'll just wake up super early. Which also happens. So there's some, you know, you can poke some holes in that, but in general, if that's happening. Well, because I'll tell you what happens. My kid for the last, he's now 11 and another one is nine, for like, I don't know,

in eight years of this kid's life, how I wake, he's my alarm clock. He comes into my room. He, he like basically lies on top of me and like,

And just like basically terrorizes me. Yeah. And it's getting harder and harder because he's getting bigger. And so I'm so used to that happening at like six o'clock. Yeah. That like even if I have like a night to myself or I'm on a holiday or whatever, I'm traveling for work, I'll still just pop my eyes open because I'm used to that behavior. Yeah. That rhythm. Even though I am, by the way, I am underslept. Because I've conditioned myself to think that, oh yeah, as long as I got like six and a half hours, at least I didn't get four. Yeah.

But I'm exhausted. Yeah. I mean, the other thing with that study is they didn't know what time it was or couldn't see any light outside. So that has an impact too. Like if you start, your circadian rhythm is triggered by the light. So you take that out of the equation. But yeah, if you're always tired, we got to do something about it. I know. I mean, like this is the thing, right? You're pretty high energy for being always tired. Maybe I don't want you to sleep. I know. I don't know if I want to be around for that.

See, I think that we all, I think people in general, what we do is we adapt to what we know, like to what our circumstances, right? Like you don't know what you don't know, right? Like all I know is that I get about six and a half to seven hours of sleep, which, you know, I just kind of like, I don't like for an example, like until you have something that's much better, you didn't know what you were missing. Yeah. Right. Right.

Also, ignorance is bliss with sleep sometimes. Some of the people that know the most about sleep sleep the worst because they think about it too much. So if you're sleeping well, don't go down this rabbit hole trying to figure it and do all this stuff. Keep that positive association. And if you can fall asleep fast, keep doing your thing. And also relationships, super important. If you have personal relationships that are fulfilling and satiating. One thing to point out with relationships, though, is like- Yeah.

That's a huge issue a lot of times in relationships is just waking each other up. So like memory foam mattress, easy fix. Like, you know, if your partner's waking up three times and you're waking up three times, all of a sudden that's six times if you have a mattress that mounts you around. So having something that doesn't transfer force is a useful tool.

Oh, that's a great idea. So what kind of mattress do people use? Any memory foam. Memory foam mattresses. I love memory foam mattresses because, like I said, I could bounce on my side of the bed and Katie wouldn't feel anything. I'm writing that down. Yeah. That makes a big difference. Huge difference.

How about, okay, and you also said something about a pillow. What kind of pillow? I like a memory foam pillow too. That's kind of personal preference, but I think the reason I like memory foam is because you can kind of create that squared off shape. Totally. Think about your neck and your shoulder. You kind of want that filled in. I'm a side sleeper, so if you're a side sleeper, you want that. If you happen to be a back sleeper and you breathe well, you don't want a very elevated pillow. You might do a down pillow because you don't want your neck forward. You want to have good posture. Yeah.

What is the number one question that people ask you about sleep? Number one question people ask, how many hours should they get? That's usually what I get. Really? No, it's usually the most open-ended question, like what's the best way to fix my sleep? And I'm like, I'm not going to stand here that long. Yeah. Okay, what was one of the best questions that you've ever been asked about sleep hygiene that you were like, wow, you know what? That's actually a great piece of information I should share with people. Yeah.

That's a great question. I mean, we covered a lot. I mean- That's why I get paid the big bucks, not- A lot of people, I mean, the biggest issue people have is saying, I wake up at a certain time in the middle of the night, every single night, like, why can't I fall back asleep? Again, referring to a sleep issue. And it's like, well, if you're-

If you're checking your phone every time, you're creating anxiety just by checking the time. Like eliminate that and you probably are going to have a much better situation. But I think like – Oh, yeah. People always talk about keeping your phone away from you in a different room when you're sleeping. Yeah. That would actually give me anxiety to be honest. But that's neither here nor there. Yeah, that's great. But honestly, like I think if there's one overarching theme here, it's like all these things we're talking about that are physical things you can do for your sleep.

hold nothing to the psychology and the feelings associated with your bedroom and not overthinking sleep and feeling peaceful, feeling relaxed and feeling like you're stress-free. I think people attack all that other stuff first and they're a disaster on the other side. 100%. And also vice versa, like you can't have a ton of stress throughout the day and then bang, turn it off and go to sleep. What's your thoughts on like different food strategies?

that are good for sleep? Like, what would you say? Do people ask you that? Like, should I be having warm milk before I go to bed or...

Well, I'd ask them if it was the 1940s if they said that. You know why I said that? Because my mother always talks about, like, you should have some more milk before you go to bed. I mean, really a good thing is, like, giving yourself— She's actually almost 80. Yeah, that makes sense. But giving yourself, like, a gap, a time gap from, like, you know, if you're three hours before bed is great. Let yourself digest. And then the other thing that seems to be useful is just having, like, a low glycemic meal, meaning, like, good combinations of proteins, fats, carbs. Like, when you spike your blood sugar—

I've seen with people, it creates almost this reaction wave when you have a ton of sugar or something and then tends to disrupt sleep more throughout the night. So low glycemic is usually a good path. Okay. I'm no sleep expert, but I think that I do have an opinion on certain things that we just kind of talked about. I know. It's shocking. First opinion right here. I know. I'm such a meek person normally. Yeah.

I think so much of this stuff, I mean, a lot of the stuff that you, that's again, like I repeat, I don't want to repeat myself, but I think a lot of the stuff that you said was you take a different approach to sleep, which is what I really like about you. And I think a lot of this stuff is emotional, psychological stuff. 100%. And so like people have to do trial and error, you know, like-

what works for you. People can say to me all day, well, don't eat three hours before you go to sleep and don't have fruit because the sugar, blah, blah, blah. But guess what? I like eating my apples before I go to bed and it makes me feel good and it makes me feel comforted. So guess what? I'm going to eat my apple and then I'll fall asleep better knowing that my stomach is yummy and full versus feeling that I'm depriving myself and starving and going to bed with an empty stomach where I'm thinking all the time, I'll wake up at night and be like, I'm hungry and I'll go downstairs and eat if I don't feel like I ate enough

before. So like, I think a lot of this is know thyself, know like what works for you, try some things, kind of like give yourself some grace, you know, like look at your life in lots of different ways and see what is actually not working for you and why you're maybe staying up all night or not being able to fall asleep and work on those things. Yeah. And I hate to say it, but a lot of these things in the wellness space,

is not rocket science. We try to make these things so much more complicated than it really is. We've tried to make sleep more complicated, nutrition more complicated, all of it more complicated versus just being a real person and just looking at your life and being like, am I happy with my life? What do I like about my life? What don't I like about my life? And tweak it as you go and not to be so hard on yourself. You'll be much happier in the long run. Yeah, and

And if you have a poor night's sleep, you're here. You've survived many poor nights of sleep and you're going to be fine. You're going to get through the next day and you have another shot at it tomorrow night. Exactly. Like I know that what, you know, it's going to be like, oh, even in clips like weight gain and bad sleep, like you're not going to become morbidly obese by having a bad night's sleep.

Will it be helpful to you if you're someone who's struggling with weight to try to get more sleep? Yes. So just, like, try to get, like, another hour or two of sleep. Yeah. You know? But guess what? That is not enough to, like, get you super fit also. No. It's just another thing that can help you, you know, get...

get you know to just greases the skids a little bit exactly it allows you lubricates the the situation a little bit exactly both are those but if you're even listening to this you probably have enough awareness awareness that you're probably doing the right things to get better sleep and it just got to give us some time and give yourself some grace and you'll get there

Nothing, sleep is one of those things where, like you said, it's psychological. So like, you're not going to listen to this, implement five things and then have an immediate fix. Your body has to get used to it. It takes time and you start to, you know, get the psychology and associating that with sleep and you'll be in a good place. But yeah, grace is powerful and sleep should be something that's,

stress and sleep should be nothing associated in your life. They should be the opposite side of the spectrum. You should be so excited to go to bed because that's the one place where you feel like everything kind of melts away. Or because you're just tired and need to go to sleep. Well, I was going to say, we didn't talk about it, but I want to talk about a great sleep tool is there is so much truth to like wearing yourself out, exercising, even like,

We just found out not too long ago, exercise is net positive. It used to even be like, don't exercise close to bedtime. Oh, God, no. All the new data that came out, it's all net positive for sleep. Now, different types of exercise affect our different sleep cycles and when we do it, whatever, but it's all net positive. So even if it's right before bed, you're better off moving than not doing anything. There's no negative effect.

outcome that happens from working out or exercise. I am like literally a broken record when it comes to this because whenever someone asks me a question, I just say, exercise, workout. Like if you are mad, go exercise. If you're anxious,

Go exercise. If you are depressed, go exercise. If you need to like let out some steam, go exercise. Like it's actually like the best drug antidepressant. Oh, it's so good. Anything else? You know what's crazy about sleep though that I really, a lot of people have problems sleeping. But you know, when you think about health and wellness, exercise is hard, right? Like it's not easy, right? Eating good is hard.

A lot of this stuff is difficult. Sleep is like the most enjoyable thing of all these things. Everyone's so resistant to like jumping on board that sleep should be prioritized and all these people. I'm like, why are we fighting the one thing that everyone likes? I know. I think it's because like, again, like sometimes they even say like the more energy you put on something or the more you ruminate about it. Like that's why even therapy is, it could be problematic. There's a lot of research now on that, right? Because

The more you ruminate on your own problems, it actually gets you deeper down that rabbit hole and that black hole of angst and unhappiness. Number one symptom of depression is talking about your problems. Say that again. The number one symptom of depression is talking about your problems. Exactly. And I would say the number one issue or the number one symptom of a sleep problem is talking about how bad you sleep and thinking about it.

100%. I'm a big believer in that. And that's why when people like, I'm living in the Mecca of therapy land here. What does somebody tell me? Like, do you go to therapy for life or do you live to go to therapy? That is such a great thing. I will tell you in LA, you live to go to therapy. I know. This person lived in LA.

This person lived in LA too. I'm from Canada. I come from a smaller town where, and also maybe it's a time we, you know, I'm like a latchkey kid, you know, I grew up in like the 80s, you know, like I feel like, you know, we kind of just have to figure shit out.

And there's, I mean, I think that's a, that's a lost art. And I think I was on the tail end of that, like generation of like, I was still like, you kind of, you didn't really talk about stuff, but you just press forward. But when you look at like all the data coming out, it's like, there is a huge advantage to just kind of figuring out your problems and emotion. And I think there's,

Like the pendulum swung way far one way. - Way too far. - And we're gonna come back to the middle, but I think you need to be able to work through things and figure things out. And it's okay that you are, it's normal to feel anxious. Like when you care about something, you're gonna be anxious and that's a great feeling to have as a reason for it. But it's like, just 'cause you feel a little uncomfortable doesn't mean there's a clinical issue going on. - Absolutely, that's the thing.

Again, just because you feel uncomfortable does not mean it's a clinical issue. And that's what's happening, especially where I live in Los Angeles, New York, or anybody where the socioeconomic level is higher. It's like, oh, I have a problem. Maybe run to therapy. You know, if I told you how much therapists charge here and like you can't even get in.

You cannot even get in to see a therapist around here. And if you do, you're paying like $400 for a 15-minute session. It is literally absurd to me. And you can't even make an appointment. And so to me, I feel like, number one, the fact that you're preying on people's discomfort is, I think, an awful thing. And no one's wanting to take insurance, which is a whole other podcast altogether. But the other thing is, I think this idea of

running to therapy to try to figure out your problems or focusing on your problems too much, the sleep, the whatever the thing is, is part of the problem as well. I agree. We'll have athletes that come to us and they're like, before races, like, I get super nervous and I can't, you know, I'm kind of shaky. I'm like, yeah, like, you care about it and you want to do well. That's a great feeling. Like, you should be anxious. And I think, like, you

you know it's a skill of almost you know becoming comfortable with that feeling and adapting and like getting used to it and almost leveraging it for positive like some of that you know cortisol and anxiety is meant to give you energy that's why it happens it's like if a lion came after us it's meant to give us energy to get away yeah it's the same feeling of emotion in something in our life it's like if it's a if you care about it and it's a big deal you can you can leverage some of that

like anxiety and some of that physiological response to actually propel you forward and deal with whatever it is that's giving you that energy. Yeah, 100%. It's what actually makes you want to do well. Yeah, for sure. It's like there's nothing wrong with it. Yeah. And now we've been conditioned to think that there's something wrong with it. Yeah, if you're really trying to reach your potential, you should kind of feel a little anxious, like,

All the time. There should be a little touch of like, can I pull this off? You know, this is a lot to take on. This is, you know, pretty advantageous. Like, I don't know if I can, I don't know if I can, you know, do all these things. And that's probably a sign that you're pushing yourself. Yeah. And it's like a healthy amount. Because

Otherwise, you're just stagnating and just kind of living in your comfort zone of good enough. Like, oh, I can do this. Status quo. Yeah. Right? How do you know what you don't know of what you can do and what you can accomplish if you don't at least try to make an attempt at it? Right. And that's really, you want to talk about not being happy. That's the absence of happiness. When you really have no feelings of being uncomfortable and like you're pushing yourself and you're overwhelmed. And it's just coasting. A hundred percent agree with you. Well, this was fun. Thank you for coming on.

Thanks for having me. You're welcome. Maybe we can do this again. I've been trying to be cool enough for a long time. I know. I've been working on it. You made it. I've tried to step my game up. You've become cool enough. I even wore nicer clothes, so I tried to step my game up. I know. You got dressed up. I usually wear gym clothes like 90 feet.

99% of the time. Really? So you did this for me? I did. Wow. I should be very flattered and I am. That's very nice. You look very gentlemanly and very professional. Appreciate it. Yeah. You're welcome. Thank you. Bye.