Episode 215: Gail Federici - Building a $400 MILLION beauty care empire
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Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits & Hustle. Crush it! Your background is interesting to me because you are obviously a maven, a legend in the hair world, but you also were in the music world. Yes.

Because I love music. And when we sold the company, I wasn't ready to sell. I mean, they just gave us an offer that I felt it would be irresponsible, but we weren't looking to sell. And we just had to take it because it would have been insane. And we were kind of at a loss. I mean, it wasn't something we planned. And during the last few years of John Frieda, we launched a line, Sheer Blonde.

And my daughters had blonde hair and they photographed really well. And unlike they were with Ford because my sister brought them there, but they were in school. They didn't really model much. They didn't like it anyway, but they love to sing and they didn't care about their hair like a model. They didn't have to keep it the same. And so because they photographed well,

We cut their hair. Sally Hershberger cut their hair into these great styles. And we did a music video with them with Dave Myers, who won every single MTV award for his videos with Pink and a million other everybody that was anything he was doing their videos. And we did a video with him for sheer blonde the line.

And the girls love to write, they love to sing. And once we sold the company, we thought, what are we going to do? My husband plays guitar and sings, but he was in sales, never was famous. But we music was always around us. So I thought, well,

you know, why not? Like people were interested in the girls as singers, but they were like 17 or something at the time. And John Frieda's brother had a building in London that housed a bunch of studios and things. So I thought, let's go into the music business. Do you know, I thought, oh, this is going to be fun. And I always like to put shows on and do creative things.

And so we had the girls and we set them up with different producers and they were writing. And then once they had a lot of material together, we I said to them, who would you love to work with? Let's see if we can reach them. And they wanted to work with Dallas Austin, who is in Atlanta. And he had done TLC's album and Michael Jackson. He worked with everybody.

And he did the Pink Misunderstood album. Anyway, so we wound up being able to, they did record. They were in Atlanta. I was in Connecticut. And we started a little music business and signed another artist, Tayo Cruz, who I don't know if you know who he is, but I have a few. He had a few, but yeah. What was his name? Donnie. Yes. Yes.

So we saw it was a crazy. I can't even I could write. I mean, I've been in hair care so many years and, you know, we've been able to do a lot of great things. But the five little years that we were in the music business, I could write the best book ever.

So funny, so filled with so many stories, but it was not successful like the music business. But what five years it was. What year was this? What year were you doing this? We sold in 2002 and we were in the music business probably. I don't really know. When was that? It must have been around.

It was when Justin Bieber, we were around a little bit. Justin Bieber was Scooter. Do you know who Scooter Brown is? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the girls met Scooter there and Scooter was working with us. I mean, this is how bad I was in the music business. So the girl said, this guy is so great. So I met Scooter and Scooter, amazing. Like he was a kid, amazing, promoting, putting people together and

and he was working with the girls and he thought I should, I want to manage the girls. And I'm thinking, I don't know, Scooter, you're so young. This is my genius. Okay. I don't know. And of course, and at the time, almost a few, maybe a year or so later, the girls were still recording down there. And Justin, um,

was discovered by Scooter who was in Canada, right? And he was discovered when he was in the studio. I remember the girls calling me saying, you cannot believe this little kid that Scooter has. He's unbelievable. And he's so kind of got such an attitude that, you know, they were way older than him. He was like, what was he, 13 or 14? And they were 18. And he's like, you know, playing around, coming onto them at a kid like that. They said, hilarious, hilarious. But yeah, so we did that for,

five years. And then during that time, we wound up figuring out how to cover roots with the product that we launched. And so we decided that's probably what we should do. That's what we know the best. But those five years were

so much fun. The girls had this amazing manager. I mean, Scooter was in the mix, but foolishly, I didn't think he should manage them very foolishly because he's unbelievable, obviously. But he worked with us to hire this Mona, Mona Scott Young, who at the time was the head of this, what was it called? It was a management group that had 50 cent

Fitty, however, Busta Rhymes, Missy Elliott and and my daughters. Right. So it was like the craziest, craziest situation. I can't even. It was so fun.

Really? So what happened? So wait, so what happened to your daughters and their music career? They got signed by Jimmy Iovine at Interscope together. And they, how old were they? They must have been around 22.

And I was really worried because they went to high school, they started writing music. And I always thought, OK, they're going to do the normal thing, go to high school, go to college and whatever. And the fact that they didn't go to college straight out was always, oh, my God, I'm going to be blaming myself forever. I'm their mother. I've done the wrong thing. I'm letting them pursue this. And then at about 22 or so, Alex thought she didn't like the music that they were being given.

She didn't like the direction. There were a lot of things that bothered her and she decided she was going to go back to college. And so she went and, um,

got into Columbia, which was great because I think it was all, you know, she was a very good student and everything, but she also had unusual experience after college, which sometimes I think is interesting for the schools. And she got a great education because of it. So I don't beat myself up too much about that one. Britt stayed longer and she was signed by Jive and had to change her name because Britney Spears was there to Matisse.

And so she was Matisse for a while and she had a quasi hit called Better Than Her. I don't know if you know, maybe if you heard it, you would know it was high in the charts in some places, but not everywhere. And then I forget what happened to Jive wound up being sold, I think. And she was re-signed at Interscope by herself as Britt Smith. And actually when the girls were together, they had a song, Britt and Alex on the Step Up 2 album.

And that was like their moment together. And Alex just no more. And then Brit went on to do better than her. And then she did a song with Will. I am did some, Oh, actually a con was in better than her did some rap part. And then she did where they were good songs, but you know, you have to have everything coming together and I wasn't involved with it at all, which was a good thing. But yeah,

She then she was in it for about seven years and she was becoming less enamored with it and just thought, I got to go to school. So but now they're both working with me, both of them. Oh, wow. Yeah. Do you kick yourself that you didn't let Scooter manage them back then? And Mona? I was so stupid. I mean, I made so many stupid moves, of course. But you know what? I feel like.

you know, it's say it's a rejection in the music business. They say that rejection is God's protection. And I totally believe that because I can't even imagine they are healthy that well, Alex has her own congenital issues, but they're,

you know, well adjusted and happy. And I just don't know because they were in the pop lane and already I could see when they had some hits, people circling that I didn't like that were circling them, you know, once it seemed like, whoa, maybe they're going to take off. And I just think they dodged a bullet. You know, it's right for some people, but I think they dodged a bullet. Honestly, I think, you know, when you look at some of the

You know, Britney Spears, for example, I feel so bad for her. And look at Justin now with his who knows if it's because he was worked so hard. He worked so hard. Who knows? But it's a really hard life. And when you're that young, you have sycophants or however you say that, you know, that sycophants are a good word. Exactly. That's what surrounds us, circling them. And like Whitney Houston, just being pushed out there, pushed out there when she's

She was really not in shape to be doing that. But money, money, money, money, money everywhere speaks loud Michael Jackson. Do you know what I mean? It's like if you're not at that level, and maybe they never would have been at that level, but it's a hard business, I think, to wind up succeeding.

secure and happy and, and who wants paparazzi running after you every minute? Like, I can't imagine how torturous that would be. Totally. I think at the beginning of anything, right? It's cool. And, and like, wow, you know, but like, like everything fades after a while and, and normalizes. And if that is your life day in day out, it is, it would be so awful.

You have no peace. You know, you have no peace. You can't be a normal person. And the demands on you when you can make a lot of money for people, the demands, they just keep wanting to, you know, push that machine, push that machine, make more and more until sometimes it breaks.

And so I feel like the rejection was a protection. They got into it a little bit. They worked with really Tricky Stewart, who is such a good friend. I love him. He's from Atlanta. And he did Beyonce's most recent. He did Single Ladies. He did Umbrella for Rihanna. He did Baby for Justin, his first hit. And those kind of friendships that we made with these really, really

creative, talented people, you know,

And it was like a great five years from that aspect. And the fact that, whoa, they didn't go on to have number one albums, I think it's just fine. And I think that they think that now too, and the relationships are there and they're very interesting, talented, super nice people. So that part we took away was really good. - That's amazing. So whatever happened to Tao Cruz? 'Cause I do remember that song. - Tao, yeah. So he had that. He also had "Break Break My Heart."

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then he wrote with Usher for a while. Oh, okay. But we signed him long before he had any hits. We heard one song of... We heard a bunch of his songs. When you say we, I'm sorry. What was your role, though? Oh, actually, I was just investing in sort of John Frieda. Oh, and it was John's brother that was working with us, you know, Nigel Frieda and...

And Ann Bell, who was a partner in the John Frieda business and is a partner in this business, she was involved too. And I said, listen to this guy. I think he's unbelievable. The girls thought he was amazing. But we signed him very early. And he had one hit and he had some other more indie or world music type of songs. And then...

It was just becoming difficult. Everything was. And I thought he needed he wanted we needed to resign him at that point in time. And in my brilliant wisdom, just like with Scooter, I did not do it because the price went up. And meanwhile, after that, he did break, break my heart and also dynamite and probably a million other things that I'm not even aware of that. He's a writer. Get out. Is he still so he probably writes for all these big acts still, huh?

Probably. I don't know. I ran into him in the airport in LA. Like, I don't know. It must've been, it was before the pandemic. I'm not sure what he's doing now. That's so funny. So that was like a nice foray from the, so from the hair world. So how did you even, cause you're, you're not a, you're not a hair stylist, right?

No. So what is your background that you were even able to become what you became in the hair space, in the beauty space, with not even having the practical experience, I should say? Yeah.

I think one thing is that my hair is really difficult to deal with and always has been. And so I had to learn. It looks good. Very, very fine. I have a lot of it and it's frizzy. I have a ton of it and it's not,

It's wavy, parts of it are straight. It's really difficult hair to deal with. I can't just wash and go. It takes me a long time to even with the products we have now, they're like way better, it's way easier, but still it requires a whole lot more effort than my daughters who have straight hair and really healthy hair. So I think I learned to do hair because I had to learn or I would have looked extremely weird.

So I knew how to do it. When I was in college, I wound up doing when there was some kind of an event, then I did everybody's hair, they would line up, and I would just do everybody's hair. I was the last to go, I knew how to do it. And then I just sort of I didn't know what I wanted to do. You know, I like to travel. I didn't think, oh, I'm going to be a doctor, or I'm going to go into computer science, or I didn't know what I just knew that.

I was interested. I wanted to learn to speak French. I wanted to travel. I went to the University of Paris for a little bit to learn. Then my mother got sick, so I had to come home. I was sort of dabbling, you know, and everything. I did not know what I wanted to do.

And my boyfriend who became my husband was in a band. And then I would sing with them sometimes on a Friday night. Not that I could sing well, but I kept my range very small. And I waited until happy hour when everybody was drinking. I waited. They'll like me now no matter what I do. And so, you know, I was having fun. And I was when I was working, I was really serious about what I was doing, but didn't

have a passion for, I didn't know what I wanted to do. Then I wound up after my mother got sick, I left France, came back and stayed home with her. And then she passed. And I was working at a, as a temp at a, um, it was a hair care company called Zotos.

And I wound up after a few years being, I was in their education department. Then I was in charge of the advertising and doing photo shoots, which I really liked that creative side of it. And I was up in the lab a lot trying to figure out why is this product better? So I was always talking to the chemists. So I learned a lot about the chemistry of hair while I was there. And I also was so involved in the positioning of the products and, you know, how to put it out there to consumers so that it would sell.

So that's kind of I sort of fell into that. And I really liked what I was doing. And I was there for about nine years when I thought, I don't want to do hair anymore. This is just not for me. That may or not. I went to law school because I thought, you know what?

Maybe I really love different cases that I was reading and I thought, I'm going to go to law school at night. And there was a law school that had just gotten accredited near me. So four days a week, I wound up going to law school at night for three years. It's four year at night. And then I was traveling so much for the company.

that I had to make a decision because I missed five classes in one subject. And you can't do that at this school anyway. So I didn't continue. And I thought, I'll go back to law school. But right now, I like what I'm doing. And I met John Frieda about eight or nine years in, who had a small bespoke line of hair care products. And he needed somebody to give him some advice. And that was when I was also ready to leave the company that I was at.

And I, with my friend, and we were going to start an advertising agency because we were sick of hair. But advertising agencies don't make as much money as if you have a product company. And we really knew hair. And I thought John was very marketable and very smart. And he kept talking to me and we were consulting a bit. And he said, listen,

Would you join me in London and partner with me on this line and skip your idea about the ad agency? And I talked to my friend, Ann, and I said, you know, we know this stuff.

He's so marketable. And I had an idea for my hair type, the frizzy hair type. And I said to John, I said, you know, I have this idea for how to make a product for frizzy hair. And there's not one product in the market now, not one for this hair type. There's not the word frizz on anything at all. So would you be okay with me working to develop this? And he said, fine, no problem.

You know, you guys get yourself over here. So I moved over with my twins that were three, a nanny and who lived in the house and our husband stayed back. And we thought maybe we'll be there for six months. We were there for a little over a year and started the business there in the basement of John Frieda's salon. And about, I don't know, maybe nine months in or something,

and i'm working with the chemist i thought that there was a product that was really good for frizzy hair and was working on my hair and we gave it to the stylists in the salons they went crazy over it and i thought okay we've nailed something here this is something special

let's put this out in the UK, which we did. And it was amazing. And then I said, we really need to bring this to the US now before somebody else tries to knock it off. And then that's how it all started, really. So you created the first frizzy products for frizzy hair. Yeah. First hair product for frizzy hair. Yes. So this was way before like Living Proof. Remember like Living Proof came out, you know? And when like...

Like 20 years or more. 20 years ago. But I remember when that was. More than that. 30 years ago. 30 years ago. 1990. So what's so interesting is because when that product came out, it was considered to be like the first of its kind. Do you remember? Yeah. And yet the living proof. Which one? No, when living proof came out.

See, I didn't think that because I just felt to me when it came, did they have a frizz product? Well, it was about like humidity. Like it was good. Yeah. It was basically like when, when it came out, it was like, oh, it was, it would help frizzy hair, but you were doing this 30 years before with your product. So I guess. Yeah. I mean,

Yeah. Well, we had a whole line. I'm not sure to me. When I think about living proof, I think about the MIT positioning of it more than I think about a specific product because when they came out, I remember that their positioning was that they had the scientists, the chemists from MIT that worked on their brand that had a lot of different types of products. Whereas with our first line, it was all

a whole range for frizzy hair. Cause I used to say, you know, what's weird to me is that

Every product in the market was for people with fine hair because manufacturers thought, well, they have problems with their hair because there's no body in them. So every product out there was to add body. And for me, that's not what I wanted. I wanted the opposite. So I said, you know what is very weird is that skincare companies have a whole range of products for oily skin, normal skin, dry skin. But hair care companies only had shampoos.

The rest of the products out there were all for fine hair, all to build body. So I said, we need to, this is like a, I call them BGOs, a blinding glimpse of the obvious, John. This is a blinding glimpse of the obvious. We need to put a whole range out for this hair type. There's 65% of women that have this issue. We'll put the whole line out one by one. And then that's what we did. And then after that, when I felt,

You know, we can't line extend to line extend, even though people wanted for his products because it's both. I don't want to be bogus. I said right now we've got a real reputation for delivering. I said so. Then we did sheer blonde and we did beach blonde and then we sold everything.

And then music. And then music. And then music. But wait, so how did you figure out, so did you figure out the formula for Frizzy Hair or did you have someone to figure it out? So for the first formula for Frizzy Hair. You partnered with John Frieda and then did you hire people who were specialists in this area to kind of create the formula to make it work for Frizzy Hair? No.

Well, no, I worked with a chemist at Zotos who then has become our chemist for the last 30 years. Oh, wow. And but I had read about certain ingredients. And I also worked with a chemist in London that John knew. And I said, I don't know whether this is right or not, but I think that these types of silicones might be able to be put into a formula that would work on my hair type. Could you work with me on this? So they both did. And that's how the formula came to be.

And that was the first with a whole bunch of

different products in the line for this hair type that everything in this line didn't have alcohol. It smoothed the hair. It didn't make it big. It made it smaller. It made it shinier. You know, it was completely different ingredients in every single thing. But what was weird is that no hair care company had, this is a huge percentage of the population that had my hair, huge. And the word frizz was not on any single package.

At all. You couldn't find it anywhere. I mean, it was insane. And I said, I mean, John, this is like, we just have to make sure that products really work. I said, and this is just people need this. Did it work really well back then?

Oh, yeah. I mean, it didn't work like the product we have now because the technology wasn't available. Right, right, right, right. So you could feel it on your hair, which I didn't like. And it didn't protect against humidity the way this new product we have called Dreamcoat. That actually wasn't, we couldn't have done that until certain things happened in technology that allowed our chemist, Joe, to do it.

to do this like it's all um chris has it all over the internet where he waterproofs the hair where they take this dropper and they drop it onto the hair and you see the water bead up it just beads up and rolls off the hair it's crazy it's just almost you're

amazing product. What's that? What is that one called? Dreamcoat. It's, it's, it's, it has like over 60,000 five stars. We have sold one sales every minute. That's

how this product I'm telling it's my holy grail like no question and Chris like Chris goes if I didn't have that product for JLo for the Super Bowl I would have been dead because she was outside in the humidity for hours before she performed it is like a technological but you know Joe had this

on his list of things from me, like I and Anne, we give him a list of things that we'd love you to crack this. So keep these in mind when you're meeting with all sorts of different ingredient suppliers. This is what we're after. There are many things on that list that have been on that list for 25 years and he hasn't been able to

you know, make happen. But one day he came into my office because humidity proofing my hair. I was, cause the original frizzy serum did not humidity proof at all. No product out there protected my hair from humidity. Even slightly. He came into my office with two swatches of hair, one blonde hair, one treated, one,

with this new product, blown dry, one without. You could feel both of the swatches. They feel exactly the same. You felt nothing on the hair. He took a dropper bottle and the untreated one he dropped immediately.

the water on it and it just seeped in. The other treated one with Dreamcoat dropped the water on it and you could see it beat up like Sunbrella. It beats up, rolls off, but your hair feels like hair. It's like the most unbelievable breakthrough for frizz that took years because it just couldn't happen before then. So I used from you guys, the PureWow, the conditioner, the deep conditioner. Yeah.

- Do you use Chris's money mask? - Yeah, that one, that one. - The blue. - The blue one. - Jar. - Yeah. - That was Chris that he worked with us on that because I don't know, what did you think of it for your hair?

I mean, I liked it. You have great hair. What was that? I mean, you have great hair. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I liked it. I never knew about this Dreamcoat. Like, I'm, like, shocked. It sounds like exactly the kind of product that I need.

It's on. Well, you, it doesn't look like your hair will frizz. Will it? I mean, it looks super shiny and really nice quality from here. Thank you. Um, I haven't washed my hair in a week, by the way. I shouldn't probably say that, but it's true. But, uh, like, thank you. I'm going to be washing it after I get off the phone with you. But after this, after this interview, but yeah,

I mean, I've been using for shampoo, like one of those Brazilian blowout types of things, you know, like. Here's my recommendation. And I don't know whether Chris said this. I am a fanatic about shampoos because they're,

I feel like a shampoo should just make your hair and scalp clean gently, period, and do nothing else. I don't think it should condition. I don't think it should thicken. I don't think it should defrizz. Because if your shampoo does any one of those things, it has to leave ingredients behind on your hair in order to condition it. And you're massaging that on your scalp.

So, which means that those ingredients that are engineered to stick will stick to your scalp. And that's the worst thing for overall hair growth and hair health. So we took every single conditioner out of our shampoo, every ingredient other than cleansing, gentle cleansing. That's all it does. And I tell people, if you want to moisturize or condition your hair, don't.

Do it with a conditioner after a mask. If you want to thicken it, do it with a thickening conditioner. Do it with a spray on conditioner. But do not ask your shampoo to do that because it's the only product you massage into your scalp and you're massaging these ingredients. And in order for them to give you benefits, they need to stay there. And you're suffocating. You know, these shampoos like when and they lost tons of hair. They had a big lawsuit.

We said that's going to happen because there were so much conditioning ingredients in it that it was bound suffocating new hair growth. So my biggest recommendation, and I don't try to push our products down everybody's throat. It's just not my nature unless it's talking to an account. Then I talk to them. But you should only use a shampoo where every ingredient rinses off.

condition it later. You don't rub the conditioner into your scalp. You just pull it through your hair, use a mask. And then even if ingredients go onto your scalp later, it doesn't matter because your shampoo, if it doesn't leave anything behind, behind cleans it. So like, I can't tell you how much I recommend the shampoo. It's like, it's the only one that does that. I haven't tried any of this.

I'm going to send you stuff. Okay. Let me just put a little thing together for you. Please. Okay. Sounds exactly this. And this also makes perfect sense to me. That's so common sense, right? Like if you're, if you're doing that to your scalp, it's going to clog the pores somewhat, right? A hundred percent. Like, so I feel so stupid because I put silicones and conditioners into frizzies. I did. And I really, I used to have unbelievably thick princess Diana bangs.

And I feel like over the years of using shampoos that had, you know, things that stayed behind, I have had, I mean, I still have a ton of hair, but I would have thicker bangs. My sister who's 12 years younger, like 20 years ago said to me, I don't know my bangs. She has thick hair. I'm thinking you're crazy. Until when we were trying to come up with a shampoo for Color Wow, we were measuring the,

shine on it. And we did it after 10 shampoos and it got duller with each shampoo. It got duller. So we would make a new formula. It got duller after every shampoo. So I said, Joe, why is this happening? And he said, the only thing I could think of is that we're the paralyzing ingredients that are in shampoos to make it look nice. Yeah. They stay mine. Conditioning agents, silicones. I'm going to take them all out. I said, take them out.

And so we took them out and the shine, we compared it to all other shampoos on the market. After 10 shampoos, they were dull. After 10 shampoos, ours was perfect, like the very beginning. And then I said, Joe, I'm just thinking about this. If that's what's happening, that they're staying behind, they're staying behind on your scalp. And we are massaging these things into our scalp.

That's horrendous. I said, take them all out. Take all the ingredients out. Make the shampoo. Just clean the hair and let us train people to use your conditioner to add moisturizer. Use a conditioner to defrizz. Use a frizz serum to defrizz. Use a product that adds volume. But don't ask your shampoo to do that. Do not.

Because you're just, it's going to be a disaster waiting to happen. Even if it's a mini one that you, or a major one like Deva Curl and When, where there was a class action lawsuit because so much hair was lost. I believe it's because you can't keep pounding and piling on more ingredients from shampoos and have a healthy scalp. There's no way. There's no way. This is so interesting. So, um,

So then why did you, so, okay. So you, after you sold, you went, you know, you're the John Frieda business and then you went to the music world and then you started Color Wow. What made you start Color Wow? How many years ago did you start Color Wow? And why would you call it Color Wow? Yeah, it's been 10 years and I didn't want to go into hair care once again at all. It was my last thought, but my sister, my younger sister, she,

went gray she's got much better hair than I do but she went gray earlier and she was had this gray stripe down her head all the time and I said Lynn how can you walk around like that can't you cover that with something I never thought about gray hair because I never had it so I said that was my one lucky thing about my hair it didn't go gray until the pandemic and then it started but it

I said, why aren't you covering that? It's crazy. She said, there's nothing out there but these sprays. They go all over my clothes everywhere. There's markers. They look disgusting and they wet my hair again. So I started to think about it and I thought, that's insane with the baby boomers and everything else. How can there not be anything? So I looked into it and there really, people were miserable. It was a small market when it should have been huge with all the people with gray hair. So I remember seeing a hairdresser put a blonde wig on a model

at a shoot and it looked horrible, it looked really fake. So he went in with eyeshadow and darkened the roots. The problem with it is that when we hit it with a fan, first of all, it looked dull, didn't look shiny. When we hit it with a fan, it blew into the air.

So I just started thinking about it while I was in the music business, thinking, I wonder if we could make a powder with a lot of different pigments in it so that it would be really forgiving and seamless that could stick to the hair without feeling anything on it and would be seamless. I said, I wonder if we could do that. You could just dab on. It would be much easier than spraying all over the place. So anyway, long story short, it took us three years. We had these great

And I still didn't want to go into the music business. I mean, into the hair care again. I still go, well, these are great. But my sister is going to Florida. She's leaving to go and she's got the gray stripe. I said, for God's sakes, Lynn, sit in the chair. You can't go to the airport like that. It looks ridiculous. So I put this stuff on her. She leaves. She calls me the next day and goes, you aren't going to believe this. I said, what? She said, I went swimming. I was under in the waves. My hair dried. I had no gray. I said, what?

It stays. You need to shampoo this stuff off. I said, oh, my God. And so then I'm thinking, oh, my God, this product is insane. Maybe. And so I started thinking about it and thinking maybe we have to go back because so many women struggle with the problem. We have a solution. And that was always what drove me. Really, a lot of it was making a difference. Like if you make something that matters, you can make money.

you know, for sure. And then you get the pleasure of being rewarded by people appreciating your product and you make money at the same time. So I thought, maybe we should think about it. And we did. And we thought maybe we can make a whole line that's different than everything else for color treated hair. And that's kind of what led to it. And when we called it, my sister, other sister called it, wow, because every time we demonstrated the product,

Wow. Wow. Every single time. Wow. They would say, because it's such an unbelievable product. So that's sort of how it all started.

happened. So it's also for, I guess I would imagine it's good for people when they get their hair colored in between getting their hair colored, they can put totally. Yeah, totally. It's a lifesaver because then, you know, there's that period where like I put it on, but I see, I didn't do a perfect job, but I have all gray here and I haven't been in a while. I don't have like tons, but I have enough that you would see if I didn't use it. I, um,

But in between, like I'll go longer now and I don't have to be embarrassed after a few weeks when you kind of see it and I don't have to spray it all over. I just dab it and then it's gone. Dab it. You can't keep doing it as it goes down. It won't work because your hair separates and everything. But for, you know, about down to here, you can use it.

Wow. Can you put it on your hairline too or no? Yeah. So what Chris does a lot of times, because some people, their hairline goes back a lot and they don't have bangs or anything. So he uses it to make their hair overall look thicker. Or, you know, when you pull your hair up, like I've got a lot of hair, so you don't see any scalp. But a lot of people with dark hair, especially when they pull it up, you see the scalp in between.

So it looks like they have fine thin hair. So Chris and, and stylists now all use it, fill it in. So it looks like you've got a big head of thick hair. So how did you start working with Chris Appleton?

Right from when we started, I wanted to find another John because I don't like to be the front person myself. And I like to have a collaborator to brainstorm with that really understands hair and how to use product. And people were bringing me portfolios. They were sending me them online. And I just couldn't find anybody. And then I remember so well, I get this one sent.

And this is back years ago, by the way. Oh, God, like six, maybe. OK. And he wasn't, you know, well known at all. And I'm I'm looking. He wasn't. No, he was in London and he was his only celebrity then was Rita Ora. So I'm going through the books and I'm going, who is who is this Chris Appleton? I've never heard of him. I've been in the business forever. I said, I don't know who this guy is.

And I'm looking, I'm going, this is the book. This is the book. Get me this guy. We all, and Anne is saying the same thing. Who is he? Well, he's so hot. Like he's beautiful, this guy. I mean. But he looks better and better every year. It's a joke. Like the guy is a knockout. I mean, the guy. He's a specimen. Exactly. I call him like a great God. I mean, there's his, his, his bone structure.

His whole family, the bone structure, insane. Unbelievable. I mean, he should be a model for you, never mind. But anyway, you know. I know. Well, we do put him in things. But yes, he was. So I'm looking at his book and I'm thinking, oh, my God, this guy's a genius. So then we FaceTime and he's very funny. And so I'm talking to him and he's quick. You know, he's really quick and he's not like his head in the clouds. He's really like to the point.

And you're right. He's not very, he's not like, he's not as wishy-washy airy fairy. Didn't seem that at all. He's super smart.

not that's exactly I said he's not airy fairy at all not like you know oh yeah the trend is well it could be short it could be long you know he's like right answers the question he knows what he's talking about he's really really good and I've never seen anybody work with products like he does and I've never seen perfect moments that he creates with hair over and over again and I thought so I'm talking to him and I thought wow he's articulate he

He gets it like he's funny. He's like making fun of me. He doesn't even know me. And he's making sort of mean jokes toward me, which I thought was really pretty cool that he did that. And so I thought, well, let's do this, you know, see for six months how it works, whether he likes us, we like him, whatever. Right, right, right. And we've been working together ever since. And he's just it's such a perfect marriage because we

see things the same. We laugh at the same things. He's a kook, you know, and it's funny because we love music is in our DNA and whenever we can work it in and who does he work on, you know, I mean, Kim doesn't, but JLo, Ariana, Dua, you know, so many music people read up, you know, back in the day. So, and he loves that world also. So, um,

Yeah, it just has. And then, I mean, now he does everybody. But back in the day, it was just looking at his amazing hair. Like, there was no question that he was going to be incredible. Well, you know, it's funny because I was never sure, right? Like, is it because he's so gorgeous that, like, people just, like, you can kind of, like, blur the lines, right? But he is really talented. I mean... Oh, beyond. I mean, certainly...

how he looks helps his overall notoriety. Like people see him in the street everywhere. They know who he is. Yeah. Well, he, cause he's so beautiful. He like represents, I mean, he's working in the beauty industry for God's sakes. Right. Exactly. Right. And he's just, and he's so tall, like six, four, you can't miss him. That blonde hair, which he looks so great on him. And he's cut like, like a Roman God. He's like,

larger than life but he is so funny do you know what I mean and you can make fun of him and he will laugh he's not he's just and he's very serious about what he does and he keeps at his craft and you know he makes every whether it's JLo or Kim or whatever he makes that moment that they want to be Marilyn or they want to be whatever in a whole leather suit

wetsuit type, whatever it is, or when she came out of the water that time and he did the wet hair, Kim, he makes that moment happen.

like she's got the clothes she's got the makeup and the hair could be something off and it never is it's like makes that moment even bigger you know what he does with it he's a really remarkably strategic remarkably strategic as well so is he your spokesperson does he have a partner an ownership partnership with this watercolor wow like what is the relationship

Yes, he has. He is part of the company. He is a partner in the company. And that's pretty much the relationship. He's been helping us with developing products. He's just intricately involved with everything. And he has been, you know, for a while now.

So when he started to get these big, how did he go from Rita or I don't remember the story with him off the top of my head. But when he hit the tipping point, like how did that happen? And how did that change your business? Well, I think with him, I think the story was from him always, he said, is that J-Lo found him through his Instagram account.

Which, of course, she's so strategic and, you know, driven herself, looking for the best, the best, the best. Because, you know, you're only as good as your weakest member of a team. And so the stronger her whole team is, the better for J-Lo. And she found him. She's got a great eye. She found him. And that's what really started. I think after a few weeks that he was in L.A., he felt, I need to be in L.A. to really. He may have just moved to L.A. when we met. I'm not sure. But yeah.

Didn't have any clients that were U.S. based when we wound up signing him. But yeah, he's just and with us, it's a combination of, you know, the products. You can see instant transformation with them because that's what we do. We look for a problem and we have a solution quickly. So they're perfect for him, too, because he's.

Boom. He can take somebody from one way to another fast. So all of these demos on TikTok that he does, and he's really strategic about it and that he educates and it's simple. What he does are all these hacks, you know, that make life easier for women. And he's got,

you know, products are critical to Chris because you're only as good as what you're using, you know, what your tools are. So that's why it's also great with him because, you know, even if we were going to, but we're neurotic about the formulas and what they have to do, but he is too, you know? And so it works because we will push and push and push and not let it go. You know, like it's so tempting sometimes. Well, it's good. People aren't even going to realize. No, no,

We make sure that if we say it's doing this, you're going to see it doing it and you're going to see it doing right away. And so he goes on everywhere and on TV and everywhere. And, you know, people see the results quickly. You know, it's funny. You have the hair. Your hairstyle right now is one of his looks that he does. Like, you know, all the girls is that ponytail with the bangs out. Like, did you learn that from him? No, I've actually no, but I have learned a lot of techniques from him. But no, because

of the type of hair I have, I've always had to work with it for years and years and years. So you figured it out. If I ever said that I learned this from him, he would have a heart attack. And so don't be saying that that thing on your head is from me. So that's hilarious. So is your big, okay, so

So when he started to get J-Lo and all these people, though, did your business like 10x, 100x, like put you on the map? No. No, no. I mean, it certainly helped, but it wasn't like, oh, boom, immediate. Like when I'll tell you, one of the big moments was actually even before Chris, I think it was Hoda. Yeah.

Was doing one of her favorite things or whatever the products that she does in the morning and she had got a pop bottle of the dream coat from her hairdresser and She went on and her hairdresser called us and said Hoda wants to talk about your product I noticed that it's not in stock. When is it gonna be in stock? I said gonna be in stock my sister's PR said he'll be in stock in a week She said well hold on to your hats because she's gonna talk about it. We thought oh

She went on like the best infomercial on and on saying, I'm telling you, this product is going to be the last product you will ever need. This, what did she call it? Secret. This secret sauce sauce is the best on and on. Like we were looking and again, your 60,000 bottles sold out overnight. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

And so that was a huge moment. And then since then, honestly, that product has been the hardest thing to keep in stock ever. Where does it sell? I've never even seen it. Yeah, it's it's in Sephora. Oh, I'm writing it down. Yeah. And it's in salons. It's in Amazon. It's on our site. But yeah.

You have to send me something. And now I'm dying to send you a pack. I will send you. And so is it good? Um, so I would use the dream where I, if that's the, is that dream coat, a conditioner or a shampoo?

Neither. So I'll send you the shampoo, which won't leave anything on your hair. The gentle one, yeah. Yeah. I'll send you a conditioner, which is fine. And then I'm going to send you the Dreamcoat. And the thing about the Dreamcoat is you really, you only use it every like third or fourth shampoo. You don't have to use it every time you blow dry your hair.

When you use it, you have to liberally spray it. And I mean liberally. There's a million videos that people go on. Girl, if you don't like the results, it's because you're not using it right. And that is true. You have to. And you're never going to feel it on your hair. Never. I don't care how much you put on. You won't feel it. So you load each second.

section, you load it up and you just blow it dry with tension. Your hair is going to be insanely glossy, insanely like glass. It's going to be like glass and the humidity is not going to break it. It's you can go out and it can be really humid out and it's not going to turn into frizz. I am so excited to try this product. I'm telling you, it's like a miracle where I'm not, I mean,

I'm not just saying it. There's like all over the internet. You can see it all over TikTok, all over everywhere. Oh my God. I feel like I've been living under a rock now. Well, you have other interests. I do. I do. But it's fascinating to me. So, wow. Well, this has been like so informative. Is there anything you can, can you leave me with one great hair tip that I should, besides, you gave me some good ones actually. Yeah.

Um, for what would you be looking for you personally? Well, me not personally, because I guess I think what kind of a hair tip do you need? I mean, I was gonna say that in five days, and it looks like that. What do you believe about that? Do you believe that people should be washing their hair? I because I think there's like, people, but I've heard was you shouldn't be washing your hair every day. You should be washing it every few days.

I think it depends on your hair. If you have really oily hair, don't be afraid to wash it because it's not good for the oil. Your hair's not going to keep falling out because you're washing it. But if your hair is drier, you don't need it. Like your hair looks fine. So,

I will, why wash it? You don't have to wash it. It'll just dry it out. Exactly. The more you're going to dry the oils out on your head. So don't do it. If your hair looks like that, why, you know what I mean? Like I can't see it closed up. You might think that, you know, you have some oil buildup, but

I wouldn't be washing it every day or every other day if I had that hair on my head. That's for sure. I don't wash mine every day because it's dry. My hair is dry. So it would be crazy for me to keep washing it. Right. And then I guess the only other question, whatever happened to John Frito after you sold it and all the all the different patents that went along? Is it out of business? Is it gone? What happened to all the patents? And yeah, that business was sold to Cal.

John retired and he's got a house in Switzerland. He's got a place in Ibiza. And I always tell people, if anybody ever wondered who was the smarter, because we were pretty much equal owners of the company, we now know that it was John Frieda. Because here I am slogging around talking about hair care products. And he is off in Ibiza. I hang the phone.

about him. I'm not going to, he goes, look at this. Look where I go, John. I said, seriously, turn around and see your face. I don't want to see your location anymore. That's funny. So I guess, but you seem like to be the type of person that needs to be doing something that you need to be doing something productive that you need to feel like you're working. Like you seem to be that type of person. Right. A monk once told me I need a home for my mind.

And that is very true. Or I go to a not a good place. So I need to keep working. I'll be more of a worrier, you know, and I so I need to keep it moving. Keep it moving. And I'm okay.

Yeah, exactly. And you have two kids, you live in Connecticut. You're still married to the guy that was the musician who... Guitar player. The guitar player. Is he a go-getter like you? Or you're the more of a go-getter? No, he's very different. He's way more of a poetic soul, more laid back. And I don't know if he's so laid back actually, but he's very different. We're like

polar opposites really good thing that we weren't the same probably it's a good thing absolutely yeah you're such a pleasure thank you for coming on the podcast thank you Jennifer my pleasure it's been fun it's been super fun I'm glad we talked about music and everything too it's fun I love it I love that you have like because you know what I've learned is that when people have your type of you know people who are type A and who are naturally driven it seems like you're naturally driven like you said your mind is going constantly

You can use transferable skills that you have in one area and use them in another area. And like, there's no, you don't have to be in one silo. Like, even though you may have not, you don't think you had success as much in the music world. It doesn't matter. You tried, you attempted, you did it. And I think that's a thing, you know, everybody should try because I've got, I've got a lot out of it. I had like a great time. I met such amazing people. Just great.

go for it. And you always do get something out of it. And you do always learn from things that don't go right also. It's also gives you like a colorful, a colorful life with experience and difference. And, and I think that the fact that you even did that is, I think it's very inspirational. People should do that all the time and not pigeon them, pigeonhole themselves into one area. And do you follow Jesse Itzler?

Of course I do. He's a good friend of mine. Yeah. No. Okay. So I love him. Right. So I, of course, have his big ass calendar. I got it. That's hilarious. Yes.

I really, it's so funny because I feel like I believe what he believes and you know, his misogy or whatever he calls it. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. For a year and Dave's rule of six things that he has to, right. I just love that kind of thinking because yeah, well try it. You know, what do you have?

just give your life some color. Like he leaves. It doesn't matter if you're the best at something, you know, it doesn't matter. You don't have to be because you're going to grow from that thing and you're going to have experiences. And that's what life is. All these experiences. I love watching him. In fact, yesterday, my friend,

Girls always say, oh, you're never tired. And I go, yeah, I'm tired. But then yesterday I watched him and he said, and I read his book, Living with a Seal, which I laughed the whole thing. I loved it. I also love the seals. Like I've read every seal book there is because I feel like I'm not really like that, but I want to be. And so yesterday I was saying to my friend, because we were trying, I'm in this group now, we have to do 8,000 to 10,000 or something steps to

They put us all on it a day or whatever. Anyway, I'm watching and I felt a little tired. And then I'm watching Jesse and he's going, he's on mile 74 and his feet are, I mean, he's exhausted. He's nothing. He's empty and he's running with his friend. And his friend said, you know, Oh, Chad, Chad.

Chad, the funny thing about me, Jessie, is I never get tired. I don't get tired. Yeah. I don't get tired. Right. So that's my motto now in the house. How are you? So you look tired. I go, I don't get tired. Are you kidding me? That's all I've been saying for the last few ever since I get tired. I

I love that. I'm going to tell him that you said all this. I'm going to text him and I'm going to tell him that you brought him up on my podcast. That is really hilarious. I can't believe that you know him so well. That's great. That's amazing. Okay. I'm going to let him know. That's hilarious. Thank you for this podcast. You were great. And I appreciate your time and I can't wait to try your products.

Habits and Hustle. Time to get it rolling. Stay up on the grind. Don't stop. Keep it going. Habits and Hustle from nothing into something. All out. Hosted by Jennifer Cohen. Visionaries. Tune in. You can get to know them. Be inspired. This is your moment. Excuses. We ain't having that. The Habits and Hustle podcast powered by Habit Nest.