chronically online ep: swifties & tradwives
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Yeah, because so controversial people it's like really strong feel real strong feelings like you love or hate 100% and because I'm the type of person to like dig my heel in the ground like if someone tells me if I know there's like a expectation where you can't speak in any way critically about someone it just only makes me more angry and want to speak about them more like, you know, love everyone seemed to have a blast.

I think the production of her gigs was fantastic. Oh, I thought it was atrocious. Oh, did you? I thought costume changes, you know, fireworks. It was like she was giving energy. Three and a half hours on stage. That's giving the people what they want. Three and a half hours is incredible. And like, I would only wish for Lady Gaga to bring an Eros tour. Do you know what I mean? Like, I mean, I can understand if it's your favorite artist...

how unbelievable it was I thought the production was so poor just from her point of view like not in a way of like just in the Ireland show across the board I'm like when I compare it to someone like Beyonce who is like 15 million costume changes the set is like insane there's disco balls she's coming out in this horse thing I thought Taylor from what I could see she had like and my husband you know I am considering a divorce but he did go to the concert

I didn't realize he was a Swifty. I know that I was like, well, he came out as a Swifty after you got married. He was like, I have something to tell you. I was like, what's the limit on an annulment? Because this is not the man that I married. But he went with our friend and I could see from his videos and he was even telling me that like there was like eight dancers on stage. And I was like, I thought there should be a bit more.

Like Lana Del Rey doesn't even really need a dancer, has about 15 girls doing God knows what. And Cher Pink. Did you see the TikToks about Pink? Pink has to stop doing foot flips in the air. Please stop.

Like, my favorite thing about the pink, like, conversation is, like, she doesn't have a song that really needs this flipping through the air. No, she was just like, I want to do that. She's, like, the typical girl that, like, does one pole dancing or, like, aerial hoop class amidst their entire personality. But, I mean, fair play. Like, oh, my God, how are you singing? Upside down, flying. Like, I would have to have a Xanax to do one of those flips in an arena. And she's, like,

singing like her to be honest that album love that first pink album oh my god it's serious wow it would make you want to break up with anyone it really like she was incredible but yeah Taylor Swift is like she's such an interesting phenomenon in the sense that like

People really don't like you criticizing her or even like, you know, talking about things that like are, like I've seen this like conversation recently that people call her like the first ethical billionaire. That's, yeah, yeah, come on. And they're like, oh, because she's made her money solely off her music.

And I'm like, okay, that's true. But she's not really, as far as I know, making it off like her streams, she's making it off the tours and the tours are very much designed, I think, to keep costs down. Like what I'm saying is there's not a lot of dancers on there.

It's like, it's not as huge of a production as someone like Beyonce. She's keeping her costs down, which, okay, you can say that's being a smart business person. That's fine. She's definitely pays everyone very well on her team. But then when you look at things like her merch, it's all made in like Honduras, I think. And there's like a huge amount of her merch, which is made like really unethically. And I'm sure most people,

is. You know what I mean? Like, and I think that's where I think the weird Swifty phenomenon comes in because like when you maybe critique some things about Taylor Swift, they're like, well, everyone is. And it's like, of course everyone is. But like, you're usually going to critique like the most severe end of the spectrum with something, you know, especially when you're being told like she's an ethical billionaire. And I'm like,

Well, I mean, technically, there's probably no real ethical way to get that rich. And also when you look at like, I was recently over in America with my friends and I was telling them that like a lot of people on the flight, on the way over were all in merch. And I had asked them that they'd actually traveled from America to Ireland to see Taylor Swift because it's so expensive in America to see her concerts. And I was reading into it because I didn't really know

Like how much say an artist would have in like the cost of their ticket price? Because I think some people were saying it was like two and a half, three grand for like a gold circle ticket in America. And then resale they're going for $12,000.

Which is insane. And I think from what I could tell, like artists, someone like Taylor Swift, not all artists, but someone as big as Taylor Swift, probably arguably like the biggest pop star, I'd say in the world right now. She does have a lot of say in how much her concerts are going to be. So she is okaying also like her fans paying attention

really crazy amounts of money to go see her but I suppose if you have so much money you'd be so out of touch that you don't realize that's even a lot of money definitely because to her that's you know pennies pennies on the floor a grand for a ticket she's like I wipe my arse with a grand come on I I'm not really into her music did you grow up a Swifty you're like into her music I my mom loved Taylor Swift so for her 50th birthday I had to perform a live rendition of Love Story

So I am familiar. Now, I'm not with every single era. I didn't like her most recent album. I just think her songs then just started sounding the same or it's like...

Chat GBT made the music. I was literally talking to one of my friends with this. I do have a sane Swifty friend, my friend Lorna. Shout out Lorna. She will kill me if I don't shout her out. But there are some Swifties out there who can have like normal conversations about her. And we were speaking about like her more recent albums. Cause like you can't deny some of her older songs are bangers. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Like, come on. Like everyone, we have to, we have to acknowledge that. Like her early stuff was actually kind of cute. And I liked the kind of country vibes and like whatever else.

But it's almost like now she has like hacked an algorithm of like how to make her fans kind of engage in her art in a very specific kind of way. And it's with this whole like the Easter egging and the like, I think she figured it out with that Jake Gyllenhaal song, right? About like the scarf or something. And I think that was the first time I kind of was really aware of

like Swifty mania of where people were just being like, oh my God, like why do you care first of all about her ex-boyfriend? Like I understand there's all this lore like he was older or whatever. I'm not too into the actual, you know, intricities of it. But that was the first time I saw like how Swifty's engaged with her art or her music or whatever in this certain kind of way. And I think she almost was like,

Oh, like this is how you, it was like an algorithm. So now it's like, it's very chatty BT AI. Like even like I was even like being real conspiratorial the other day. I was like, how the hell did she record a secret album? Like the, her latest one, like she just announced that at the Grammys when she'd been on tour for a year. I'm like, she has a plugin of her voice on some AI program because like,

Some of my favorite artists, I can barely get an album out of them every 10 years. Like, you know what I mean? I'm like, she's obviously a hard worker, but there is this kind of like algorithmic level to her music, I feel, where, you know, people love like, and because like I am fascinated with like the House 50s thing, I get so much of it on TikTok. So like people being like, she's wearing a necklace. It is like set to midnight. That means at midnight, we're going to get a new thing. And I'm like,

And you think it's crazy, but then she does act like that as well. Like she does kind of program a lot of her stuff, I think, to have these kind of Easter eggs. So it's like grabbing the attention. There's also there's something addictive about her.

Yeah, that's probably and you know, do you listen to that podcast? Sounds like a cult. Yes. So I don't know if they've done an episode on Taylor Swift, but it is sort of cult like because it's like feeling a part of something. Well, also like complete adoration of this person. Yeah, she can do no wrong. She can do absolutely no wrong. There's also, you know, I'm working on a podcast season about cults at the moment and there's

there's like certain levels, like there's a, there's like a qualification of like what it is to be a cult. Like there's certain things and it's like, um, like adoration of a leader, like a God, like where they become God, like basically they can do no wrong. Changing of language is a really big one so that you are isolated in the way that you speak so that no one else understands you.

um so I see that with Swifties where it's like the way that they talk about her music and there's the era and there's this and the midnights and the reputation and you have to know so much lore okay so that it's like it becomes you start to speak in this really like insular way that is only speaking to other Swifties um and like there is cult level stuff like did you see when she had her um

the Eres tour in the cinema and there was all these like videos of the of the people going to see her and like they were like holding hands it was like midsummer they were like running around in the theater at the front theater singing her song doing the like midsummer no yeah they were trying to conjure her up in front they were like say Taylor three times in the mirror

And like look I think a lot of those people were like made fun of unfairly because like of course that's going to be fun going to see a concert in the cinema like I would go see that. When I saw Talking Heads gig everyone was up singing and dancing and then they sang me Happy Birthday after.

I know it was such a good experience very alternative yeah and it was all like middle-aged people and they go I wish my kids would come to something like this with me I know but like it is fun it's like the Rocky Horror Picture Show you know yeah yeah interactive yeah it's meant to be that like no one's gonna sit there I would be enraged if I went to something like that and everyone was sat there eating their popcorn watching it like of course we're gonna have to sing in a dance but like whoa doing the midsummer loop that's freaky but like yeah there is a cult like and I think what it is is like

All stan culture is cult-like, no matter who you're talking about. And like every kind of fandom has its really toxic end. Like I'm a big Landon Ray fan and like some of them are insane, like really toxic and bad. But, you know, I think Taylor Swift just kind of is the like the extreme end of it. So it's kind of seeing where it can go. Like I don't really know of a fandom that's quite as toxic.

- Extreme. - Involved, shall I say. You know, I don't really, I'm not really aware of one anyway. - But do you think she's more harshly criticized in comparison to other artists or other billionaires?

I don't know. That's always something that like I've thought of because I think it's like, I think no matter what, like she's definitely harder criticized than like any men in like as, but then I'm like, is there a comparable, I don't really know if there's a comparable star that's like quite as big, maybe like a Harry Styles, but is he a billionaire? I don't know. It doesn't really matter to me how much money they have, but maybe like a Harry Styles. Like I do see people comparing Harry Styles to like David Bowie and stuff. And I'm like,

No comment. She probably is harshly criticized as all female stars I think are. But I don't know if she's any harder criticized than like someone like Beyonce.

who's like arguably as big as her and like I would argue probably a much more impressive show to go see yeah I saw Beyonce three times I've never seen her live I got in trouble though because I was wearing a cowboy hat and I was scraping off the girl in front of me she was like I actually have a sunburn and your your cowboy hat scraping off it and I was front row and I got to touch her hand Beyonce yeah I was like wow and like I'm not even like a for Beyonce like I'm not like a huge Beyonce fan like but I

I think she's incredible. Like she's like Prince or something. Yeah, no, she is. Like she's like unbelievable, you know? So I don't know. Like, I think I watched this video essay a while ago by Taylor Swift and how she like,

has kind of designed it so that she profits off this like really toxic and kind of boundaryless level of parasocial relationships with her fans which is really interesting because did you ever hear of when she would bring her fans over to her house? No. So she used to have this thing I don't know if she still does I don't think so but up until pretty recently she would have this thing where she would host a pre-listening party for her new album and she would like

some of her biggest stans on, I guess, probably Twitter or something else and invite them over to her house. And they would go to her house, sign an NDA and like she'd like, like her actual home and make them cookies and they'd all like listen to this party and then they'd all have to put out this post or it's presumed they would have to anyway, being like, oh my God, amazing time at Taylor's house, like picture with her. And he was kind of saying, his argument was like, because she has this like

of boundaries with her fans it has made her fans kind of become these fierce defensors of hers because it's like they believe they're friends yeah she they feel so close that they could be invited to her house oh

And the people who were invited to her house, as far as I'm aware, were people who were very much like, you know, making very defensive posts about her and, you know, et cetera, et cetera, online. Because she obviously had a period, I think, like post the Kanye West stuff where people probably were like being quite derogatory toward her or whatever else. So I thought that was a really interesting point. And like, I just see, I do see her interact with her fans on a different level to other pop stars. Yeah.

And it's different. I'm not saying it's bad or it's good, you know? But I think it's like... It's quite strange, I think, to have young fans over to your house when you're like that big of a pop star. I don't know. I think that's... It's kind of... But I could understand the allure. Oh, my God. Like, if I was 16, love. Oh, my God. You'd be obsessed. Like, Taylor's bestie. Like, you'd feel... Be invited to the wedding. Unbelievable. Like, you know what I mean? So I can understand why...

People love it. But yeah, like I think I don't. So what I'm where I'm kind of going with that is like, I think that sometimes the narrative pushed around Taylor Swift is done a lot by these stans who defend her a lot. So where I hear a lot of like, she's really, you know, she's critiqued more heavily than any other pop star. I'm like, is she? Or is this just kind of a narrative that's being pushed toward anyone who almost dares criticize her?

I think more because she's been put up as the poster of feminism for a lot of young girls that it's maybe frustrating for hardcore feminists because she only represents like white, middle class, conservative sort of feminism where it's like, fuck men, I can date whoever I want. It's nearly like...

promoting, I don't know if this has gone too far, but it's like nearly promoting like the casual sex liberal feminism movement. She's like girl boss feminism. Yeah, CEO type feminism where she can be a billionaire and that's what feminism is. And I would be like vehemently against sort of that representation of being able to fly in private jets, but it's fine because she's a woman. And now I do love all of women's rights and wrongs, but that's a bit too far. And yeah, she's an ethical billionaire, but because she hasn't,

had any slavery along the way which is like not something we should be really celebrating it's just no one should be able to hoard that amount of wealth

But she did now, she is an example of trickle-down economy because I did hear she gave grants and she donated to all these food banks and every place that she did gigs. I've seen that too, but I'm also kind of like, is that not kind of the least she should be doing? I know. But no one else does it, so fair play. We should be celebrating it anyway because it's like, oh, well then she can't do anything right if we're going, well, that's the bare minimum. We should be maybe celebrating that so other...

celebrities get influenced? Absolutely. Do you know? Yeah, no, totally. But did you see that article your man wrote being like, she's not a good role model for women because she's 34 and unmarried.

I know. And like, the thing is, is like, I saw a lot of people sharing that and stuff and I'm like, okay guys, our media literacy needs to improve a bit because this is clear rage bait. No one interacts with Taylor Swift in that manner without knowing what's going to happen. And you're not going to get a bajillion clicks on shares. Cause I saw that all over my social media. That was like full on viral level of rage.

like for Irish media too it was like whoa this is viral so I'm like this is full rage bait it is trying to get people annoyed and it's you know it's no one would have got that level of clicks if it was like Taylor Swift is a fabulous artist yeah

because like everyone writes that you know so but it was obviously insane to write like what on earth like no one agrees with that as well I really don't think so maybe some like I don't know someone down like I don't know who would agree with that I've never met anyone who's like terrible terrible for women because she doesn't have a baby and she's not married like crazy I'm also like you know justice for women at my age who don't have a baby okay leave me alone

Stop asking me. The one thing I can relate to Taylor Swift is we were both born in 1989, okay? I'm like, she's not old.

she's still young in fairness I didn't know she was 24 for some reason in my head she's like still 15 I know you know yeah she's kind of ageless I will say she kind of looks like a Madame Tussauds like wax figurine I'm like she's very just like hello like same lipstick same haircut like by design I feel I just say I feel like she has such a good team around marketing and PR team absolutely like flawless to be honest in comparison to for example Jojo Siwa

she was like guys I know you're all saying I need to hire a new marketing PR team it's all me I saw an interview with her recently and they were like who do you want to win drag race and I think she had guessed it on that season or something and she was like I don't watch it I'm like why would you admit that but then she's like I thought she was

- She's supposed to be a gay pop icon. - She invented it, apparently. Gay pop, you know? But like, I mean, that, there's something so endearing about her though, and her insanity and her mess, you know? And I think, I think that's maybe why

Taylor Swift is it's not that you I don't think like celebrities need to be relatable if anything I prefer when they're not relatable because it's a bit more honest yeah stop pretending you're like you're not anything like me and I don't expect you to be and even on the whole like feminist icon thing I'm like I don't really need my pop stars to be like out here preaching feminism to me like I think there's much better sources I think it's good to like maybe you know

with politics and like things like feminism and everything it's probably a good like entry level for maybe some young girls which is good you know but like I don't think it should be like the pinnacle you know what I mean right you know so it's like she shouldn't have to represent all that it is to be a good feminist it's like maybe she can be like the entryway gate drug or gateway drug or whatever um but like with Taylor Swift it's like there's nothing really like it's so contrived and she is such a controlled uh such a controlled like to

team around her image and everything that it's like I'm looking for a bit of something normalcy yeah a little bit of edge yeah and then she kind of in the kind of Jojo Siwa way she kind of does this whole like I'm a bad girl at times you know what I mean she's not unhinged she's very hinged yeah very hinged oh very you want to see unhinged

Spend a day in this head. Only joking. I'm a nutter. Like what is that? Like Elijah's like, you wouldn't last an hour in the asylum where they raised me. I'm like, girl. But I love that meme. No, Taylor wouldn't last a day on Ask.fm. Not a day. No way. Or on Omegle or something like that. No, oh my God. Chat roulette. Good night, Irene. Oh, it'll be the end of her.

Now I thought it was so wholesome. I was in town one of the days and all the girls in like sparkly dresses and the cowboy hats. Oh my God. It just made me feel real happy for them. Because you know that feeling when you're going to a concert and you're so excited and you're there with your friends. The buzz. Oh, there's nothing like it. But the fact I just would never ever pay that much money for a ticket to see someone. I think in Ireland it was better price. So I think a lot of it in America it's because they've like no consumer protection laws over there. So there's like no standardized like ticket rate. I think in Ireland...

It was probably still expensive I'm sure I think it was a couple hundred Yeah Like four or five maybe It's a lot of money But Yeah there's no one I will say fair play For three and a half hours Holy shit Don't know if I'd ever Really want to go to a three and a half No I'd be sick of standing up I'd be like I need a chair I'd be like me

But I think she did lip sync for a little bit of it. She went in and out. There's no way you could do that night after night after night. Some of the greatest entertainers of our time, Britney Spears, was an amazing lip syncher. And there's a moment of like, you know, it's not Whitney Houston. Beyonce's known for incredible live vocals. I don't think you're really going for Taylor Swift for her vocals. She's more just like,

It's the way that... Yeah, it's the presence and it's the kind of... I think it's the... Going back on that like chat GBT kind of algorithmic music, like she knows that if she makes all these kind of songs with a lot of Easter eggs that relate to relationships that we saw play out in the public and you get this kind of really probably fascinating insight into like what a celebrity relationship could be. And I think...

then people relate to it because everyone's gone through a breakup of course so of course you're going to have like screaming crying women in the audience and people then have that resonation with her music where I think it's like it's it's cathartic you know so I think I did see that that this Swift gig there I was like okay I can see there's like the big level of catharsis for a lot of people where they're like screaming these breakup songs and I mean that's fun I did love the lore now when she was rumored to be dating Karlie Kloss

Oh, they gave her a bit of it. That gave her a bit of it. And then Cardi Klaus went off and like married a billionaire, didn't she? Oh, I'm pretty sure she married some like...

Conservative billionaire. I'm pretty sure I could be wrong. It could have been her PR team though. We don't know. See, and I don't, I have so much distrust for the Hollywood scene because there's so much. The elites. The elites and everything. And like pizza, what's it? Pizzagate? What was that thing called? It gives me similar, like what you were saying with the cultish kind of vibes. It's this kind of like, you're so lost in the sauce at some point. The Da Vinci code. My gateway drug. Yeah.

When I tell you, like, I remember, and I've told this story before, but like, I read that book on a family holiday with my family, obviously in France. And I remember we were in like, I think we were like somewhere like on the Atlantic Ocean, that side of France. And I was like, we have to go to Paris.

Because Jesus's body is under the Louvre. Like I was like, we need, like, I remember being like, this is so historically accurate that like, I need to go investigate what is going on in Paris. Like I was obsessed with the Da Vinci code changed me and shaped it probably did like a wreck. What's the word? A wreckable damage to my brain. Clearly.

Like it shaped my brain into the like mishmash of like terrible things. You're just like, it's time to get addicted to Reddit threads. Fully. The pipeline, the Da Vinci codes to Reddit thread pipeline. Yes, to hosting a conspiracy podcast. The Jenny Claffey lore. Speaking of pipelines, I was listening to a podcast this morning about the pipeline from tradwifery to like, or crunchy to,

Crunchy aesthetic. Trad referee. Fantasy content. To the alt-right. Like anti-vax. Oh.

sort of people. And I didn't realize the dark, cause I'm, I, all my For You page, obviously because I'm a mother, is all like Nara Smith and trad wives, basically Bralarina Farm, Emily Kaiser. They're not all trad wives. And then this other one, I can't remember her name, but she, her, her husband's a pastor. So she's like, oh, I just read passages from the Bible whenever I'm feeling lost. And, you know, and everyone's like, praise, praising Jesus in the comments. And I, like, we've all been there in our lives, I think,

I just think I'm so close to that. I feel like I can feel it. Yeah, it's like brewing underneath me. But I did watch this movie once with Jennifer Garner and her child and she had digestive issues and then she fell down a tree and apparently saw God who saved her. To me, I was like, oh my God, God actually saved her. So I got my mom to bring me to a born again Christian mass, like worship in town. Because she was like... Jennifer Garner to evangelical pipewires.

And you could see how it was just so inviting and so comforting because I was a teenager at the time. And obviously as a teenager, you're a bit lost. You don't know who you are. You want to feel a part of something and you want the world to make sense because a lot of stuff doesn't make sense. And there's so much horror. So you just want some light.

And when I went to this mass, it wasn't really a mass, it was more worship. It was like singing and everything. And everyone was so inviting and warm and complimentary and like tearing up at the praise Jesus songs. So I can see the appeal so much. And I never saw a dark side to it. I was just like, that's really lovely and innocent from those people. But then the darker sort of like Americanized side of it is like, it goes a bit deeper into like the anti-science, anti-evolution, um,

hyper conservative misogynistic and racist values um which is obviously a lot darker and scarier but it's like kind of subliminally being promoted on TikTok as this like aesthetic fantasy um

and you know when people talk about this and it's like oh you're just making a problem out of nothing you're making discourse out of nothing because it's just like there's so much shit going on especially with nara smith i was like people are making up things now just for something to talk about but now after listening to this podcast about trad wives and like the pipeline it's kind of like subconsciously training women to want to serve their husbands and yeah showing this

sort of lifestyle on a platter as like the most aspirational thing you can do is to look after your children and your husband and you will be fulfilled which is appealing to me because anti-CEO girl boss feminism so you think the other side of your feminism brain then goes to well then obviously it's like a matriarchy sort of looking after the community and children especially because I have a child so I'm like getting sold on this idea and

But there has to be something in the middle where it's actually what we're striving towards. And I don't even know what it is yet, but it's, yeah, it is scary because I am getting sold into it. I know. And it's with the trad wife stuff. It's, it's funny. Cause like,

you know, how is it any different to say like travel content, you know, or like, of course, like there's, there's always these high going to be these highly curated forms of content where like, you know, and people can get bogged down in detail sometimes. Like I can get a bit, sometimes I like to, you know, just buy into the fantasy. Like I don't really need to be a narrow Smith to start off her videos with, by the way, guys, I have a nanny. It's like, obviously duh. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Of course. But I'd say you and I, and a lot of people,

well, not a lot of people, to be honest, a small amount of people have like the media literacy to actually be able to presume these things and be able to engage in that content in a more casual way while obviously realizing there is a lot that goes behind the scenes and with specifically Naira Smith because hers is so...

And then with the likes of Ballerina Farms, you know, we know that her father-in-law like is like a huge, like he owns JetBlue Airlines and like this is how she's being, you know, and both are Mormons, which is a really interesting part. So Mormons, a part of Mormonism is,

from what I've read, which is just on research, not on personal experience, but a part of Mormonism is very much on aesthetics and there is, because they practice tithings, so a certain percentage of your income will be given to the temple and given to the Mormon church,

It they have not all like I'm sure you know different churches are have different ethics or whatever different levels of this as well it all exists in the spectrum but in the most severe cases in within some levels of Mormonism there's this idea that the more like closer to God you are he will reward you with gifts of money.

Oh, so Mormonism is more like materialistic? There is a lot of materialism within Mormonism. Oh, I didn't realize that. Yeah. So if you watch Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, they talk about this a lot because a lot of them are either Mormons or ex-Mormons. And if you live in Salt Lake City, the majority of it's probably, I think one of the only places in America anyway, where like the majority population are Mormon because that's like where the main temple is.

So there is this idea of like, if you are flashy or very wealthy, it's like, oh, you're very godly because God has rewarded you so that you can give the tithings 10% to the church.

Do you know what I mean? And I saw, or maybe this is on the podcast I listen to, a percentage of Mormon, the Mormon church pays for like advertising to promote Mormonism. Exactly. So you don't know if they're paying influencers. Is that even a thing? I looked into this because I did an episode of my podcast on Mormonism and I kind of wanted to try and see if,

If I could, I couldn't find an exact answer to that. Now, Mormon, the Mormon church does, um, to a certain extent sponsor some, uh, influencers, but it's very on the nose. It's very much like we're going to a Mormon, I don't know, like gathering or I don't know what it is, but like, they'll go to like a conference and that that will be paid. Okay. But I don't know if they'd go as covert. Yeah.

And there is, there's conspiracy theories they do where they will help fund people like Nara Smith or Ballerina Farms by presenting a life that's very aspirational and aesthetic so that, say this would be the conspiracy, right? So that young women outside of the Mormon faith or in the Mormon faith can

We'll be like, oh my God, how did they like, how is their life like this? This looks amazing. And then every say one in every 10 videos, Nara Smith will drop in a, and then I did my scriptures and the scriptures is the book of Mormon. And then maybe it would be a pretty elaborate, pure scheme, but maybe then they will go, oh, maybe everything she has is due to her faith in the Mormon church. Yeah.

But if you think about influencers and what they're called, people are getting influenced. I mean, I was influenced to bake more bread, cook more things from scratch.

Now, I wasn't fully sold on the anti-vax, you know, propaganda, but you can see yourself nearly getting sucked into the whole lifestyle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. And it is a funny thing that like is like what you started off this conversation with, like that kind of crunchy granola mom to alt-right pipeline, because I think...

for my generation anyway, when you think of people like who are very conservative and maybe lean or even lean, like I said, like anti-vax, you don't always think of like hippie-ish people because they usually were presented as the more liberal kinds who were very open, like open sex wise and life wise. But in probably from, I think the first big anti-vax wave is

came from that like completely disproven study now that like it has some form of influence on autism which it does not and it's been completely disproven many many times but i think that started off a big wave of kind of um i don't really know politically whether they were they were conservative or whether they're more hippie-ish but this kind of

It was presented as this like autonomy and yeah, like anti-establishment thing of like the government shouldn't tell you what to do with your kids, et cetera, et cetera. And that kind of boiled down to like, don't vaccinate your children, which is obviously being completely disproven and you should absolutely vaccinate your children. But I think that like somehow it's kind of, it seeped into this kind of

hippie-ish, yoga-y kind of area. And it's because it's so unexpected because most people, I don't think, think of those kind of people who are more anti-establishment as being like

kind of stereotypically conservative. And then you see this whole new resurgence of like people who are like cottagecore ballerina farms, who are like evangelical Christians and anti-vax. And another one, a big one that I saw in Aerosmith coming into a lot of huge with her recently was the anti-SBF brigade. So she made her own SBF.

I saw that. I saw that, yeah. But I thought it was just a bit. I think all of her stuff is a bit. She's like playing into the jokes because she likes all the memes about her and stuff. So she knows what she's doing. She 100% knows what she's doing and...

Like that's the thing with Naira Smith. And again, a lot of it goes down to like social media literacy, you know, it's like people getting rage baited. It's the same as the Taylor Swift article, like her being like, my children woke up this morning and they wanted granola. So I started making it from scratch. Like, obviously she didn't like the kids aren't sat there starving. Like,

for my bread I know I think her first big viral video was PB&J yes and she made the bread from scratch and like the one like if you are a content creator like you can only go off what the algorithm is telling you and if you get 20 million views on a video because you were like I let the bread prove for two hours while you're kidding

like you're gonna go okay this is how you know and it is how like it's funny when you look at like algorithms and how they start to inform people and like is there a trickle-down effect on that on like politics and that's a whole different conversation but

you know, she's reacting to an algorithm that is rewarding her. So you will get rewarded by an algorithm if you make very similar content over and over and over and over and over and over again. And that is what she's doing. And she's sticking to a script of things. Like she knows she has to say, she's making it from scratch. And she knows the rage bait of my husband woke up and wanted this, or my kids woke up. She never really says,

Rarely, she will the odd time, but she'll be like, I was dying for a bar of chocolate, so I made my own bar of chocolate. Very rarely. It's always my husband or my children. And, you know, to presume she's not in on it is silly because she obviously knows what she's doing.

She's doing it really well. And I eat it up. I'm sorry. I eat it up as well. I love her. Like, and I love the, I love how far on the spectrum of ridiculous it is. Like she's wearing Chanel. Yeah.

and making boba tea like her own boba like I'm so stupid I thought that that just came like manufactured in a packet I never even thought you could make that like you know what I mean the stuff she's making and like there is an educational level to it too like you do see and there is a kind of thing of where you're like oh my god you can make that from scratch and you can make your own sourdough and you can make ketchup you know yeah hot sauce what an idea I

Never would have thought of it. But I would love to know, like, if there has been, there has to have been an effect on, like, younger people seeing that. And, you know, I guess that brings into the question of, like, how, like, can we have content that,

that presents these kind of idealistic existences without them having to put like a disclaimer down the bottom. Like, and I think there's an argument for both, you know, but it's like for me, it's like with social media and how we all engage with social media, it's not the same as like when you were, I were younger and we'd watch TV and it's like Sabrina, the teenage witch, and she lived in this deadly house where her aunties and the cat was talking. We know that's a TV show, but when it's quote,

quote unquote, regular people becoming stars of their own TV show that they can curate. Where is the line between like what has to be kind of, you know,

you know, disclaimed or whatever. Like, do we have to have a like, you know, like no children were harmed in the process of this, making this PB&J. No children were neglected during the proof of this. And how do you, I don't know, like, how do you teach that? Like, is there going to have to be some sort of like media literacy taught in schools? Like that would be a good thing for kids to be taught. Yeah.

I do think there should be more of a focus on people under the age of 16, like not being allowed. And I know that sounds extreme, but not being allowed social media because the media literacy just isn't there. And it is very, very difficult to teach. And also you cannot control the algorithm and what shows up on your page. Like for example, young boys seeing the Andrew Tate shit and them getting influenced and just being promoted. And that is way more, sorry to cut across you, but like, that's what makes me mad. That's way more dangerous than a young girl seeing a Nara Smith video. I know, I know. But the dangers of...

young girls seeing Nara Smith videos it's like again the pipeline it's like the aspirational stayed home girlfriend content that yeah wanting to marry a rich man seeing the value in men via their bank accounts and how much money they make it's just a little bit it's like tethering on the line of toxic and dangerous because women aren't

being promoted because we see the CEO type as anti-feminist now that's like we don't have an answer yet as to what is aspirational and ethical at the same time but it's definitely not being a stay-at-home girlfriend and like serving your man no or like wanting to marry a tech bro yeah that the stay-at-home girlfriend content that was coming out probably about a year before Naira Smith I used to see that a lot of that on my TikTok that would boil my blood yeah and I don't know maybe it's because

Again, I don't know what that is. It's interesting to think of. Why did that annoy me so much but Ballerina Farms and Nara Smith doesn't? Is it because they present their stuff in a very calming, soothing way or is it because...

I don't know, does it make more sense? And I'm like, you're kind of, you're always going to be very sympathetic or at least I think other women are when you see like someone being a good mom and taking care of their kids and you're kind of going, oh, well, it's her choice, you know? But then the stay-at-home girlfriend stuff was always so like, it was so like finance brocoded. I think it's because it's so obvious that Ballerina Farm and Nara Smith are potentially the breadwinners in their relationship and we know that they're making an income for these TikToks they're uploading. Whereas the stay-at-home girlfriends, you didn't know their names.

- True. - We're just calling them stay-at-home girlfriends. It's not a specific named person with the face. They might not even show their face in their content. But Nara Smith is so obviously making an income. She's a model. She's probably making more money than your man, Lucky Blue. - I saw a TikTok recently where they were trying to break down how much money she actually makes. And I think she's making about half a million a month just from TikTok creator fund. That's, like she does sponsorships. She doesn't do that many sponsorships, but like she's been doing sponsorships with Chanel. So like she's making money.

You know, and yeah, I think you're right that like they are there. They have more of a presence in and of themselves, whereas the stay at home girlfriend, it was very much like and the way they presented it, it was very much like being a slave to their boyfriend. I felt a lot of it because it was like, I make him his coffee. Like whereas Niall Smith is like, yeah, my husband craved it like a chicken. But like we kind of know that that's just her hook.

Yeah, and she's not coining herself as a stay-at-home mom. She's just saying, this is what I'm doing. Like, I'm a mother. This is what I do in my stunning kitchen. LAUGHTER

Like, I mean, I weirdly, I became aware of Nara Smith, like not to be like, I knew her before all of you, but I kind of did. I became aware of her because a picture of her and Lucky Blue Smith and anyone who was on Tumblr knows who Lucky Blue Smith was. And her comments are always like, your husband is Lucky Blue Smith. He was like a Tumblr icon. Like everyone was so horny for him. And yeah.

a picture of their engagement came up on my Explorer page. And I was like, what the hell? And then I started getting, cause I was like then Googling her. Cause I was like, she looks really young. Cause like they think they met when she was like 18, like really, really young. She got married 19. I think he has another kid from this other model, like who looks kind of like Addison Rae. And like, there's so much, I mean, there's a lot of tea there, you know? So they, they do present it very like wholesome and they do seem wholesome and sweet and they are wholesome.

Oh my God. Like stunning. If you saw that couple trotting around, I would be like jaw on the floor. Dead on the ground. I'd say their kids are just so gorgeous. So like, I don't see how two people like that couldn't make like the most gorgeous offspring. Not that that means everything in the world, but like when you're talking about social media and you're just looking at things aesthetically, it's like, yeah, I do like looking at them. Yeah.

One thing's for sure. I do like looking at them. I do like looking at those two. Like a dirty old man. Yeah. Not bad to look at her and her fella. Beautiful couple. But yeah, it is funny that like, I wonder where on the spectrum that...

content sits because it is on that spectrum of like crunchy mom like anti-vax kind of yeah once it went to the SPF definitely it did yeah it crossed the line whistle yeah she's like I made lucky smith and then like I saw all the dermatologists online were getting real mad about it because they were like zinc does not something I don't know what I was watching but I was I was loving all ends of the drama you know um but I do think that like

I did see an argument also about Naira Smith kind of defending her. And they were saying like, you know, she is also a woman of color completely dominating a field that's usually very much given to white middle-class or like, you know, white blonde skinny women. And like, like leave her alone as well. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think of all of them, she's the least, I do, I don't think she's very like nefarious in like, and I think that people also,

very much overstate like people are like she has a whole production team and I'm like okay guys no she probably does just have the probably has an editor the tripod a tripod and you know a little clip-on influencer light you get them on Amazon and like 100% she has the means to have like one definitely a full-time nanny yeah she claims that Lucky looks after the kids while she makes the content and if she does fucking fair play because she's cracked the code there are obviously levels to Nara Smith that are like

Like I see a lot of Constant body checking Like you know I see a lot of like The babies are Like giving birth Is just very easy for me But she has Recently opened up About her postnatal depression Which I did On her Instagram On her Instagram She was talking about like How her first baby She said

I think she suffered from bad postnatal depression. And I think her second one was something else. I think it was sleep. And then the third one, she was like, I'm kind of feeling okay. But I think she said her first two babies, she found very hard, which I like appreciate it. Cause I'm like, you know, not that you have to like air out your traumas for people to find you relatable, but unfortunately you kind of do online, especially when you're so perfect. Yes.

you know um but I would encourage her Instagram is a bit more of a vulnerable space for her oh okay that's good insight yeah she does Q&A's and I lap them up you're like wait I'm getting inspo I'm like a Swifty for Nara Smith you're a Smithy I Smithy oh my god I'm cute adopt me

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