Edwin Land and Steve Jobs
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So a few months of guys, I spent about seven hours at john mackey, the founder of whole foods, and he was during one of our conversations that john told me one of the crazy things that anyone has ever said about the podcast by the time I met him, he had already listening to over one hundred episodes. And he told me that if founders existed when he was Younger, that whole foods would still be an independent company.

That since the podcast and all of the issues which contain emphasize the importance of controlling expenses, he would have made IT much more of a priority, especially during good times, during boom times. I think IT is very natural for our company and for human nature to not watch your cost as closely because everything is going so well. In fact, you going to hear something similar happens to Edwin land late in his career, after Edwin land was semi coax into retirement by polar ods board, a decision that Steve jews, by the way, called one of the dumbest things that i've ever heard.

Unfortunately, cost got out a hand and Edwin left polar. This is something that happens a lot. In fact, when Steve jos. Are counting the stakes that he made in his own career, he mentioned losing the discipline of cost control. He was talking about his time at next.

And in one of his biography, there's a line that says, not only was time sleeping by quickly, but so too was the money. Jobs complained, allowed that were not scrounging. We stopped nicklin damming for the stuff, and IT all adds up.

This is something I talk about all the time with my friend eric, who's the cofounder. And CEO of rap ramp is now a partner of this podcast. I've got to know all the cofounder of rap and spend a bunch of time with them over the last year.

Two, they all listen to the pycke. And theyve picked up on the fact, just like john mackey did, the main theme from the podcast is on the importance of watching your cost and controlling your spend, and how doing so can give you a massive competitive advantage. That is the reason that rap exists.

Ramp exists to give you everything you need to control your spend. Ramp exists to give you everything you need to control your cost, to give you easy to use, corporate Carry, entire team, automated expense reporting and cost control. Something that all of issues goes entrepreneurs have in common is that they make a cost control and obsession.

In fact, if you go back to my conversation with john mackey, he told me this shocking idea about the role that walmart played in whole food success and IT has to do with how impossible was for other people, other grocery stores, to compete with sam walton and warmer. There was about a decade where grocery stores tried to compete with walmart on Price instead of competing on the higher in the market with whole foods on quality. And if you try to compete with somebody is success with cock control like and walton was on Price, you lose.

Sam walton n repeat that over, over, over and topography my fAiling tomography. He says our money was made by controlling. You can make a lot of different mistakes and still recover if you run an efficient Operation. Or you can be brilliant and still got a business if you're too inefficient.

Rap hopes you run and efficient organization raham p is everything you need to control and optimize all their friends Operations on a single platform ramps website is incredible, make history s greatest customers proud by going to rap talk on to learn how they can help your business control costs. That is a ramp dot com. I just finished listening to this entire episode.

I'm really proud of that. I think go founder spot cases, the tall. In fact, I recorded this episode over two years ago.

I have not been able to reread this book since then, but the podcast allows me to spend lesson an hour. I spent a lesson an hour. We listening to the episode, and i'm instantly reminded of all the valuable ideas and insights that I ve since forgotten. I hope your experiences the same, and I hope you enjoy this episode. Much sided .

polaroid followed a path that has since become familiar in silicon valley. Tech genius founder has a fantastic idea and finds like minded colleagues to develop IT. They pull a ridiculous number of all nighters to do so with as much passion for the problem solving as for the product, venture capital and sort.

Marketing follows. Everyone gets rich, but not for the sake of getting rich. The possibilities seem limitless.

The most obvious parallel is to apple. Both companies specialized in relentless, obsessive refining of their technologies. Both were established close to great research universities to attract talent.

Both fetishized superior, elegant, comfortable product design and both companies exploded in size and wealth under an in house visionary genius at apple that would Steve jobs at polite IT was evin land. Just as all apple stories lead back to jobs, polaroid law always focuses on land. In his time, he was as public of figure as jobs, land and his company were, for more than four decades, indivisible.

At polaroids annual meetings, land got up on stage, deploying every bit of his considerable magnetism and put his company's next big thing through its paces. A generation later, jobs did the same thing. Both men were college dropouts, both became as rich as anyone could ever wish to be, and both insisted that their inventions would change the fundamental nature of human interaction.

Jobs more than once expressed his deep admiration for Edwin. He called him a national treasures after land was coasts into retirement by polaroid board. Jobs called the decision one of the dumbest things i've ever heard of.

The two men met three times when apple was on the rice. The two inventors described to each other a singular experience. Each had imagined a perfect new product whole, already manufactured and sitting before him, and then spent years proud executives, engineers and factories to created with as few compromises as possible.

Polaroid Operated almost like a scientific thinktank that happened to regularly pop out a profitable consumer product. Land was frequently criticized by wall street analysts for spending too much on his R, N. D.

Operation. That was a Lance philosophy. Do some interesting science that is all your own. And if IT is in his words, man of festally important and nearly impossible, IT will be fulfilling, and maybe even a way to get rich.

Thousand expert from the book, and we were talking about today, which is instant, the story of polo, ID and IT was written by Christopher bananas. So this is the third book that I read about Edwin in the last about ten days. In fact, all three, the books that have read in last ten days, I actually reread.

So I told i've read five biography of edmonton, three of them average twice. So if you haven't listen to the past episode, des makes you go back. It's episode two sixty three, one thirty two, one thirty three, one thirty four and forty parties in the shown notes as well, so you can remember them. And the reason I spent time reading almost thousand pages are rereading almost a thousand pages when land is very simple. If Steve jobs studied Edward, I think every other founder shoot as well.

And the book I hold my hand does a really great job, maybe the best, that of every book that i've read on Edwin lands so far, comparing and contrasting and really showing how much in many ways, evin land was Steve jobs before Steve jobs so want to jump write into a story from his early childhood and says, nearly every account of Edwin land's youth conforms to the classic boyhood inventory shades. Did he once blow all the fuses in his parents house? Of course he did when he was six years old.

Did he once disassemble a significant household object, resulting in parental anger or parental pride? certainly. So it's really fascinating paragraphed out because i'm also, i've also started to reread the book, becoming Steve jobs, the evolution of a reckless upstart into a visionary leader.

And the section I just got to infect of strating this last night was something that Steve jobs father did, I thought was a really, really brilliant from apparently perspectives, is his father was a crash man. He had his own like workshop, his garage. And when Steve was five resumed, he took to even the garage, cleared off a part of his work bench and said, Steve, this is now your work bench.

And he showed his son how to build things that you could manipulate, the devices and the things that are in the house, and that everything around you was made by somebody else, and they had to learn how to do that. And so his father incursion to take things apart, to realize that you can build new things, you can combine new things in interesting ways. And it's fascine that lane is doing this at six years old, because jobs is doing the exact same thing at that age.

The second thing I want to point out to is that they both optimized for breath as well as depth. They did not. This is one of the biggest criticisms that Steve joves had of of bill gates.

He has a lariated code, is like he won't been a broader person if he would have dropped acid. So says a land was introverted in person, but supremely confident when he came to his ideas, a customer that we are today to the silicon valley style. This may imply that he was a big nerd, but that is not right along side.

His scientific passions lay knowledge of art, music and literature. He was a cultured person, growing even more so as he got older. And this is why that's important.

And his interest filtered into the ethos of polar red. And this sentence is gonna ound erly. Similar to Steve jobs, Edwin land, like people who had breached, as well as dept.

Chemists, who were also musicians or photographers who understood physics. So I got to that part. Maybe think of one of my favorite a paragraph. S.

I came from the Steve just bag graphed by asic, where at the very end of his life, Steve was talking about the influences on his work, that people like abban to vinje Michaela head, and what he tried a bit, essentially copy. He says, and when landa polar, I talk about the intersection of the humanity and science, I like that intersection. There's something magical about that place.

There is a lot of people innovating, and that is not the main distinction of my career. The reason apple resonance with people is that there's a deep current of humanity in our innovation. I think great artists and great engineers are similar in that they both have a desire to express themselves.

In fact, some of the best people working on the original mac were poets and musicians on the side is exact. Same idea that was just expressed in this book. Let me finish this sentencing the jobs has here, because I think that even expressed as that idea on a deeper level, in the seventies, computers became away for people to express their creativity.

Great artists like lanovitch and micanopy were also great at science. Michael Angelo knew a lot about how a query stone, not just how to be a sculptor. And so I think that idea leads into the next thing I want to tell you about, because this is very similar to land, land and jobs.

Shared, uh, series of heroes Thomas satish being won. But this reminds you have Henry ford who ever read White like four, five books about something that and land was looking for ways to get undiscovered talent. He got a lot of talent from M, I, T, from, however, because he's out polar, obviously right next to them.

But he he desired what he wanted. He like, I want somebody to come brand new to my company so I can teach them the way I do science, in the way that we do our experiments. I don't want to have to take somebody that already been trained up fully in the wrong ways to do things.

And so he winds up developing a close relation to an art history professor. And this art history professor winds of saying, hey, these are, I have know, these smart gifted, so my smartest gifted students, I bet you he'll be to work well at polar ode. And so Henry ford did that exactly things like, I just want somebody brand new and then I I will train them myself.

I am not going to outsource the training and education that I need for my company to somebody else. Land grew close to clearance Kennedy, who is an art history professor at Smith college and also a fine photographer. Their relationship not only help refine lands I, but also began to feed polaroid with brainy, aesthetically inclined Smith graduate.

So think about the competition for an M I T graduate, the competition for harvard graduate, compared to the competition in for a technology company member. Land built, if this is your first, maybe don't know this, but if this is your first time of hearing, but I will land, and will land built one of the greatest technology in only of his day. And so this is a technology company founder targeting art history graduates.

So says he became to feed, tolerate with brainy, aesthetically incline Smith graduates, hand picked and recommended by Kennedy. IT was a clever, and this is the reason of reading this to you. IT was a clever and run around the competition for talent, because few corporations were hiring female scientists and even fewer were looking for them in smith's art history department.

And he has another parallel to jobs. Land was extraordinary to nachez as a child. Land had been forced to visit an aunt he disliked as he SAT in the back side of his parents car.

He said his jaw and told the themselves, I will never let anyone else tell me what to do ever again. Lan's control over his company was nearly absolute, and he exercised to a degree that was compelling and sometimes exhAusting. And so I just have one more example from his early life, and they will get into the beginning of polar ID.

And again, this is parallel of jobs as well. And is this idea that land found what he wanted to do at a very Young age, and he did IT to, he almost, he died. His work maybe called different things, but essentially to me, after reading so much bottom from the age of seventeen until he retires first to kind of force out when he's like seventy one, seventy two, something like that he's working on polar ID IT is all pollard ate.

Just like if you go back and look at Steve jobs early life, he had this desire to build these devices to create some kind of tangible product he does at an extremely Young. And we, of course, we know he works on that until he dies. And so even though land did not grow up, and they says he didn't really grow, and like an intellectual household, there wasn't a lot of books in his house.

His parents in prioritise reading. He actually found himself a copy of a book. There was polish one thousand nine hundred and eleven. And it's by this physicist name, Robert woods.

And so I talked about this last week how land said that he would read this book at night, how other people read the bible, he would sleep with that under pillow. And one particular chapter influence his life's work. And that was a chapter about the polar ization of light.

And so the first, very first invention, he does what the first, like two decades of his career, is all about polar ization. So i'm going to be a quick overview because IT was very confusing to me. I know I had to reread IT, but land is able to give a simple explanation of what I was that he invented.

A polarizers is a unique type of filter. If you picture a beam of light as a handful of throne straws oriented in every direction, the polarizing filter is a picket fence. The only straws are, the only light that comes through are the ones that align with the slots between the pickets.

Adding a polar ized layer to sunglasses blocks light vibrating in that one plane, wiping out the glare and helping drivers s see the road. And he used the example of helping driver see and then adding IT to sunglasses is because those are the two main domains that he tried to to build his basis on before he starts in, before he invented the industry of instant photography. And I think that speaks to another reason why he's so important to study is because for the first two decades of his career, to the point he is thirty seven years old member, he starts on his experiments when he's seventeen.

By the time he's thirty seven, he's achieved everything he wants, accept success. And so when you read biography, Edwin, you see an incredibly smart, gifted, driven focus person in the decade after decade of struggle, and more importantly, finally work his way through. So he gets to harvard, does not stay very long.

And it's because of this, uh, he would drop frustrated by the rigidity of the classroom and his unserious classmates. So he turns his apartment to basically allowed for the experiments of polarization. He's gna wind up just at agent sixteen.

He actually gets his first scientific breakthrough. And so this is a quick description of his scientific breakthrough, says his innovation was one that a few people had tried before him without success. So here, the ideas can't grow large Crystals because there's actually polarizers that exist in nature.

So he had studied the entire history of the field that you trying to do, like everybody trying to grow big Crystals. What if I grow millions of what he called sub microscopic Crystals? Then if I could line them up somehow, IT might do the same, like I might do the trick.

I might actually polarized light. And he put IT on a clear sheet. And the the alignment of these millions of some microbes, rosso pic cyst als on a sheet, turns them into a filter.

And this was an extremely big deal, says land age just nineteen, first broke through his first synthetic polar ized. The world's first was a genuinely major scientific discovery. And then IT goes through all the ideas, the different ideas, commercial applications that he thought he could like the synthetic c polarizers could be used for.

He had a very, and minds very somewhere to the thomebody sand. If you go back and read a sync overy, phy is like, I only one, invent things that actually have an application that I that that the public finds so useful that they will buy. That was like his main ethos.

And what was facing about, like i'm going to skip over that that part where're describing all the different applications that land is hypothesizing about because there's another parallel to jobs in this idea where jobs had like a second or third act, he was forced reinvent himself and the company he founded. Same thing with every land. You maybe noticing that none of this has anything to do with instant photography, polar ized, rather than pictures.

We define the first two decades of lands, intellectual life and would establish his company. Instant photos were an idea that came later on a secondary business around which his company was completely recreated. So the first version of polar ate, the company, is actually called land wheelWright laboratories as his last name and the last name of his partner.

The first product they make out, the laboratories actually be called polar ID. So then they originally, then they change the name of the company around their product. okay. But the reason I want to read this to is because lan had a gifted way of managing people, and one way he did that was he would always them around a mission.

So this is going to remind me, one of my favorite quotes from jeff zs is that missionaries make Better products that you usually attract two different types, people to your company, missionaries and mercenaries. Mercenaries are there for the perks, the money, maybe the procedure status. The missionaries make Better products because they believe in what the actual companies doing.

IT is not just a company to them. And we see at the very beginning of his career, same situation here at land, a chok board in their lab, red. Every night, fifty people will die from highway glare.

Land wanted to make sure everyone there understood that they were all on a mission, a manifestly important mission. And so that was edwy's first. Big idea is like, hey, these polar ized jah, we could put them sunglasses, but we could also put them on a windshields and headlights, and then we could reduce at the time.

This is in the nineteen, I think, ninety twenties. A lot of people were dying due to headlight glare at night. Driving at night was a lot more dangerous than that is. Now he is also going to fail at convincing detroit to actually adopt his invention, which is a very important failure for him to experience. Because I taught him his OK.

I don't want anybody between me and the customer, so I want to design a product that I have complete control lover and that I can go and sell directly to customers. So every land is definitely one of entrepreneurs that I most admire. But I want to make a clear.

I admire like his work and what he brought to the world, and his ideas on how to do something that's manifestly important. I do not want his personal life. Here's an example of that, though, by all accounts, he and tary had a fine marriage, one that less is sixty one years.

SHE would certainly get frustrated at his absence and his distracted this one of his employer calls accompanying him on a night when he had to picker up at logan airport and he was quite a bit later than he said he would be as they arrive. Terry shouted IT, you're always late. You've always been late.

Even when Jennifer, who, which is a their daughter, graduated and kept giving him a hard time already back to their home in cambridge land, didn't say word, and after dropping her off at the house, he went back to the office. Everyone who worked for land seems to have a memory of the man's intense workdays, whether in the early years or decades later. There's a story of read previously in another bag, vi.

In land. The demonstrations point exactly. He's that his father's funeral. And I think it's like Matthew ask, hey, like I when why don't we ever see you? You're never any family gatherings.

We'd like to get to spend more time with you that kind of thing. And responses. My life, my work is my life. And so this over optimization of your professional life at the detriment of your personal life, is something I read over over in the bag fees. And some entrepreneurs regret that they did that, and some get to the end of life and don't regret IT.

Another interest of edin land's that informed the way he built his company was the fact that words and language and literature and books were extremely important to. He's got this fantastic idea of having somebody within your company, he causes them. The keeper of the language checked this out, land could write two.

As polar y grew, his letters to shareholders gradually became a particularly dramatic showcase for his language and his thinking. And let me know around myself here another story where people like, did you? What did you when you're Younger? What did you like? What is your goal?

Life is like, I want to to be the world of greatest scientists, and I want to be the world of greatest novels that give an idea of this guys, the scope of his thinking, right? These letters were really more like person al personal mission statements. They're thoughtful and compact and just a central enough to be completely engaging.

Instead of discussing earnings and growth, they laid out lands world, inviting everyone to join him. He cared about words when he elevated the marketing executive, ted voss, to become a corporate officer and gave him a four word job description, keeper of the language. So I mentioned earlier how, just like jobs had to reinvent apple when he came back, Edwin had the reinvented company.

There's like a line of demarcation and history of pollard, if you think about IT. And that line of demarcation is word war two. Pre world war two, they're having some success selling polar sunglasses.

They're trying to they invented three technology for movies, but they wasn't adopted by the movie industry. And they're trying to invent a way to reduce the headlight glare for the automobile industry to not lot success. Then you have all the work work they did, which is rather remarkable, how polar, like almost every other american business, can turn on a dime.

Where they start, they go from trying to produce things for the, for the consumer to things that will help the allies win the war. And then once world war two comes to an end, then is the history of tolerate, why we know the company's name. It's all the invention of the instant photography industry and the instant camera.

And that becomes land focus for the remainder thirty years of his career. And so before I jump into the instant photography, I just want to bring one sentence describes a tiny part of polaroid war work. And really just the way to understand that we're not dealing with a Normal person here.

More time production brought out one aspect of landed personality that nearly every one from polar ID remembers his ability to invent on the spur of the moment. One time, an air force general called them to ask ford advice about a problem with his gun sights. Land's reply was that he would fly down the washington the next day to describe the solution.

The general said, oh, so you have a solution. And land responded, no, but i'll have one by then. And he did. He invented the ring site based on on circular polarizers, something that was invented overnight and on demand.

And the great thing about this book, compared to the other by grapes of emilia, that red, is there is a ton of pictures. You can actually see all the different, only the the inventions that he, that polar did during the war, but before the war, and then after the war. If I ever write a bigger fear, something about what i've learned from doing those research founders, I would make a look like, this book, see less than two hundred pages.

And I think that, you know, ten of books have like these pictures, but usually like in groups together, like have way to the book where this is spread out the entire time. And you actually see the picture of what they're talking about at that point. So they're talking about the S.

X. seventy. They show like what they look like at the very beginning. So in the nineteen and its finalized form in one nine hundred and seventy in election hands, at least at great, enhanced my understanding of what was taking place at that point in pollinate. History is fantastic.

So on to sk, ahead to where he gets his idea, where he has his visualization in his mind of this instant camera would like his daughter asked him this famous, like founding myths of of the S. X. seventy.

Like, we took pictures. Daddy, why can I see them now? And lies like, why did I ask a question? And I just want to pull this one paragraph out for you, because this is something that you see over over gonna.

You study history that great inventions have a tendency to seem obvious after the fact, almost like under this, like mass psychosis. And he says inventors sometimes experience a fever paranoia just after they had a great idea. And this is why IT seems so clear and burn so bright that they're sure someone else will come up with the same thing any moment.

And they compare the experience that the land is going to his life and career with the founders of the eros. I have two books on the founders of the ocs, another great technology monopoly that I can't believe I haven't on the podcast. A, so this my fault.

I will rectify that soon in the future. So says land's contemporary, chester carlson, after his own invention of the xerox's photocopier, immediately called up, a friend, dictated his scheme and asked a friend to sign and date the notes. Lan already had a strong patterning instinct, and by coincidence, his pattern lawyer, Donald Brown, happened to be on vacation in santanna, mexico himself.

Where where land is having this experience the two spent has the night getting everything written down. Now, this is a funny joke, like a funny, because land was gifted at is very much a show. Man, obviously extremely intelligent, could describe even a complex idea, a very simple way, but if it's humors.

But the reason I want to bring IT to attention is because IT IT speaks to one of the most important things that entrepreneurs do, and that's the idea of perseverance and persistence. And then in many cases, it's party going to take you decades to get to the point where you actually want you to, where you want your product to be. It's exactly what land went to.

And i'm pretty sure i've highly in the in the book later on that speak to this very important point land joke that he roughed out the details in a few hours, except for the ones that took from nineteen and forty three to seventy two to south. So then we go back to another parallel between jobs and land. We were you discussed a few times in the book in that they were both gifted at product demonstrations.

I want to bring out one sentence of because this is extremely important. So IT says an add executive once said that polar was the easy cell imaginable, because all you have to do is show the product that is facing that, that is occurring in the one thousand nine forties. This is the first product demonstration, one thousand forty seven, right? But you and I know that this is a very old idea.

The greatest copywriter to ever lift is that guy in claim said, and the kind of claude howk kins, right? You haven't studied claude hopkins ins, you need to go back after done the thing to this epsom and listen to one seventy, my life in advertising. Okay, he says he wrote, quite open ins was, is doing most was working maybe about thirty years, about thirty years before we are in the stories, early one thousand hundred hundreds.

And he said in his book, scientific advertising, which has been read by generations of founders and and advertising and marketers, he said that no argument in the world can ever compare with one dramatic demonstration that is a great line that describes polaroid and lands superpower. And you could also argue, Steve jobs, think about this like because this is something we actually live to, like if you can, if you're not to remember a Steve jobs product demo, right? How much free advertising did the media give apple and Steve jobs, just because they put on an event, they put on a show.

Who knows what the numbers? It's gagan is a gigantic number. And he was all built on this aspect of human nature that there is just no argument in the world, no sales copy, no nothing that can actually things can perform well. Obviously, that's what I hop inside for, you know, every day, you know, twelve a day, seven days a week for his entire life. But his whole points, like i'm gifted with words and i'm telling you right now, i'm gifted with copy and I tell you, I know that no argument in the world can ever compare with one dramatic demonstration.

And we see that not only in the presentations that Edwin land does for the company, which I am going about to read you here, but also when they go and try to sell the product, when they put him in stores, they don't have to just hidden in a box. They have people, they say, hey, try this camera, take a picture, this is gna blow your mind and when people say, hey, I took this picture and usually takes fifty to sixty seconds for the, for the polar to appear, people go crazy like are pushing each other, grabbing things. So again, I think that that idea is extremely important.

And it's an an old idea. Hawkins wrote that, you know, one hundred, one hundred and twenty years ago. And it's still true to this day, which is facility. So it's go to wear one of most famous pictures ever taken. If you google image search Edwin land.

This is one of the first pictures I come up with him looking at a big, his own face, right? He says what he revealed was a perfect portrait himself. IT may been an accident that the eight ten camera produced a photo almost the same size of his actual face, but that only added to the erineus.

There was land sitting at a table in a stripe tie, displayed a fresh, fresh picture in which he SAT at the same table wearing the same stripe time. This is having, in nineteen forty, a gasp ripped around the room. Newspapers all over the country ran the story.

So again, I just got sung ying. How much? How much free publicity did the media gives Steve jobs because of his dramatic demonstration skills? Same exact thing is happening here.

This is built. The success, the commercial success that pollard ID enjoyed was built on this. The fact that not only did they have an invention that was patentable right.

The one they are completely can make IT so directly to customers, but they were gifted at getting publicity. One day I learn how to pronounce that were heard. And the reason that there was such an important stories is because he was a genuine technological advancement. And they talk about this.

Remember that amateur photography in one thousand nine hundred and forty seven had come along only a modest amount since George emmen, as the founder of kotex first film in eighteen eighty 8。 So that is what, sixty years, uh, in sixty years, the only thing that was getting Better with the cameras, but the processing in the film had not change that crazy says, when I came time to process your pictures, you had two choices. Build yourself a dark rum, which you know that one couldn't do unless you're super and photography right, or get your film to a lab.

The leap to polar roy, this is such great language by Christopher, and I hope I probably printing his last thing incorrectly. But he's really good rider. Christopher, her bananas, banana s maybe the leap to pollini was like replacing a messenger on horseback with your first telephone.

And I really do hope you pick up the book, because on the very next page, IT shows, okay, they have picked the camera that he, the poll err, was able to make in nineteen forty seven. Doesn't look at all like the final version, the version that he saw on his mind, one that you could almost fit in a pocket. I mean, there's another story how to tell you a little bit about that.

But the ideas like I want something that you can Carry with, you could fit in your pocket, you could take pushes all along. The first land camera, the first polar y camera, does not look like that. And what this book does so great is that you see the dimensions, you see the pictures, you see the evolution of these ideas, a slow iteration, decade after decade after decade.

Here's another idea that you and I should copy. And is this idea that you should hire a paid critic? I'm going to read this to.

This is an idea that I, first of government, I read the biography of the founder, the cofounder of SONY. I covered that book all the way back on founders, one or two. If you haven't listen to that, make you listen to IT and read the book.

Because at when land learned from cuma, and I heard, is the name pronounce that a couple different ways. But that's the way I pronounce IT. Steve jobs studied to camera, and jeff bases have all been on record.

This has been a ton of fountains, but those are three that poked to my mind. And i'm going to tell you why that idea is so powerful and why I I mention on several part gas when IT pops up because I think it's important. And so we're seeing that right here.

He says, for a retainer of one hundred dollars a month, land got anal atoms. So, and atoms, maybe the most famous hotoke PH in this time period. He says he got answer Adams formidable knowledge on tap. So what does that mean?

Adam stayed on the payrolls for the rest of his professional life, though, as he hates them to point out, in one thousand nine hundred and fifty two, the step and had risen to considerably more than one hundred dollars amount to thank god, he said, whenever this is why this is important in White, beneficial for founders to take this idea and use IT in their own company. Whenever polar IT introduced a new product line, Adams trooped off the mountains of the desert to tried out back cam reports packed with detail containing roads of photos at varying exposure, or APP atures. Eventually, atoms filed more than three thousand of these reports.

You now have won the best photographers on retainer, and all he's doing is testing your product, finding where is week, where can be approved and sending you back reports that is worth way more than whatever you're paying him every month. Now they use the same thing. A K, O, in his cofounder use the exacting thing when they were building SONY, the same idea, that is.

And at the time they're making audio taper quarters, listen to what he does here. So, uh, this is now A K, O, writing his book. And to read this program, OK so says maria yoga had been a vocal art student at the tokyo university of arts when he first saw our audio taper quarter back in one nine hundred and fifty.

I had my eye on him for all these years because of his bold criticism of our first machine. He was a great champion of the taper quarter, just like ansel atoms as a great champion of the of the photograph. right? Same exact things happening here.

amazing. He was a great champion 的 taper quarter， but he was severe with us because he didn't think our early machine was good enough. I had too much wow.

And flood, he said. And he was right. Of course, our first machine was rather primitive.

We invited him to be a paid critic. This is genius man. We invited him to be a paid critic.

Even when he was still in school. His ideas were very chAllenging, just like answer Adams. Ideas were chAllenging to polaroid.

And the rea also had a brain because he says, he said, then a ballet dancer needs a mirror to perfect her style and her technique. And so that is exactly what he is giving to SONY SONY, the ballet answer on the mirror. Now here's the punch.

And even crazy at the time that this book was written, which I think is probably guy, be twenty five years old, maybe even older. Maria was the president of SONY. He started off working for SONY as a paid credit when he is still at university.

Any winds up being so good, so dedicated, that he wants to become working away all the way to the present of Sunny is one of my favorite stories. So what the cameras released to meet you, this successful, they sell more than they can even produce. And again, this is why it's really important to study.

And when they are, because he founded one of the great technology monopoly of his day. And with that comes monopoly profits. And what was he like to work at polarity in a dayday?

For one thing, the company had a lot of money because the land photography system was a technological outlier with all the necessary patterns locked up. IT was going to be a long time before I was commercially chAllenged polar. I was able to sit out the Price competition that can force companies to nickel and dime their customers, suppliers and employees.

The profit margin on a package of film was sixty percent. So I sk ahead to another parallel with jobs, the fact that polaroid was a one man company. This idea also echoed at the history, entrepreneurship to greatest entrepreneurs.

You can think of them more is like a they're not building democracies. They are by nevelson dictators. And here's an example of that.

These little teams are not Operate entirely without interference, because land was at the top of every invisible organization chart. A former colleague once described his involvement at by saying, don't kid yourself, polarity is a one man company. Land circulated among the officers, roving, pRobing, asking questions, pausing only to catnap in a larger he kept in his closed office.

Occasionally the legal employees hope that that he would get obsessed with something far away from their so they could avoid those late nike phone calls. That sentence is also found when you're studying how Steve jobs, uh, approached building apple lot of things, said his focus so intense that sometimes you wished IT wasn't directed at you. So it's very summer to what these polar employees are experiencing under land.

And this leads into one of the most important ideas that that land would repeat over over again. Man, rude off. One of his employees were, calls the land sometimes popped into a lab and asked to sit in the dark room just to hide out from questions and think he wasn't kidding.

Some years later, when he said, my whole life has been spent trying to teach people that intense concentration for hour after hour can bring out in people, resources. They didn't know they had land, also understood something that jobs understood as well. And as the ideas like i'm not building a commodity product, my product is aspirational, says he grasp that polar, I could be positioned as an aspirational product and should be package and market IT that way.

There is a fantastic discussion that is happening. I read this in john I eves biography, which I covered back on one seventy eight. And it's a discussion between Steve and john y, and are trying to figure out like what are they are gonna build.

This is right when when jobs came back to apple, so right around ninety seven, and jobs right away, like he always when he was Younger, he did. He wanted to deviate from what the rest of the industry was doing, and the way he thought about what what they should be doing is like building, like the B, M, W of the computer. inertion.

I'm going to read this section from in this book for me, because I think for you, because I think interesting. Uh instead, jobs argue there is no reason that well design, well maid computers could not command the same market share and margins as a lucky y automobile. A bmw might get you to where you're going in the same way of heavy that cost half the Price.

But there still, there always be those who will pay for the Better ride in the sex year car, rather than competing with the commodity p makers like dell, compacting, gateway. Think about the computers that exists in late nineties, right? Exactly what was taking place.

So I kind of look the same. Instead of competing with commodity PC makers like gale compact gateway, why not make only first class products with high margins? Is that not what is happening with polar? It's exact same idea this.

So cuss me. Come up. h. Why not make only first class products with high margin so that apple could continue to develop even Better first class products? exactly. We land that.

We're going to build first cost products with high margins, right? We're going to take the money we're making and then we're instead of, you know, going out and buying for arries. And yet we're going to have this excessively high research and development budget, and we're going to keep doing that decade after decade.

So why not make only first costs products with high margins so that apple could continue to develop even Better first costs products? The company could make much bigger profits. Still jobs here.

Okay, the company can make much bigger profits from selling a three thousand old machine rather than a five hundred old machine, even if they saw few of them. Why not then? This is the punchline in this zone point.

Why not then just concentrate on making the best three thousand thousand machines around? So think about the book you said it's not only that we built the first class product, it's it's the only one like that. You can sound like giving buy a polar road or something else like there is no competition.

There's a great lines as tolerate only competed with itself. But part of that, after you build the great product, is first class product needs, first class packaging and first class marketing. And so what do they do here? They hire a paid critic.

Part two, polar, I convened a graphic design summit, bringing in the best minds in graphic design to look over the previous years, work the previous years advertising, the previous packaging, all of our logos, everything, all of our branding. okay. So it's like and they got by this time we're in the I think we're in early seventies, but yeah, we're in the early seventies at this point story, they got a really am good at, okay? But again, they're already really good.

They are already making a tony profits. They are stock is through the roof. At this point, every one is already one of the rich, richest americans, right? And they still go out that sound enough to like, okay, let's go find another critic.

And so they have this graphic design summer. They bring in the best minds and graphic design to look over the previous year. S work they hire or they attempt to the legendary paul rand, that is the guy who drew the IBM abc and ups logos and about one hundred others, everyone knows if they asked, emphasize up their work.

And he delivered a concise verdict, you don't need me. You don't need anybody moving ahead. I ve got to bring out another idea that absolutely love the fact that history does not repeat human nature.

Does polaroid with snap chat before snap chat. And so think about them. The U. K, Y OK, before you took a picture, um you had to send IT off and some lab technician actually made the picture for you, got to back to you so so you took a picture and another human being was gonna that picture right? But now you have polar.

It's only you that sees IT and so people start using IT to take naked pictures of their lover and of themselves in many cases. So I says we never know exactly who first figured out that using a polar y camera, whatever happened in front of the lens never needed to be seen by a lab technician. There are plenty of naughty first generation polar photos out there to confirm that instant photography success was, at least in part built on adult F U N D.

So snaps shot s obviously very different than the today and IT sorted out. But I started out as like a setting APP right? And what's what's faster about this is that I read a book a long time ago called how to turn down a billion dollars as the story of snapshot.

It's episode twenty two. IT was in the early days of founders where today are not interested in reading books about entrepreneurs are still Operating. I think it's actually to do that because time is the bell filter. And so I get a lot of book recommendations about OK you cover like the uber, the airbnb s like i'm not doing that. These people, those conditions can go on, get interview.

T, I only want to focus on people that are either at the very end of the career may be you know, sixty, seventy, eighty are retired of their debt, primarily as much as I can just study dead entrepreneurs. But back then, I was just kind of reading about any kind of founder, but was fascinating. Like when you read that book, what blew my mind is that one of evan speak a founder snapshot.

His hero was Edwin land. And I blew my mind because like, how the hell at that point is like twenty one years old, twenty two. How the hell is somebody that Young even know who emin land want to point to? Quotes on that book says, ever wanted to build snapp chat as an art and technology company model after two of his heroes, Edwin land and Steve jobs.

And the second quote, like land and jobs, evan was more of a discover than an inventor. He also didn't believe users could tell him what they wanted. He simply had to discover what was next and show IT to them.

And then I was listening to him talk one time, and I thought I was such a weird way to describe an unique way. I don't mean that as a majority any means to describe his company because of things like it's a social network, whatever S S, an APP is like where camera company exactly what polar was. So in any case, to decide that together like this desire, the human desire, most of the people that were taking naught photos use to use auther language with the first polar r camera are dead.

And yet that was exactly the use case of the early days in snapshot history doesn't repay. Human nature does. okay. So the next thing I want to talk about this is my note.

How is the save impossible? How could he see the future so clearly? So this also speaks to the benefit of the like. Think about the nate knowledge that Edwin and accumulated over entire life, thinking about light and all the different, like things you could do with that, the effects that has from seventeen until seventy two or whatever the number is, and all the different applications, like all the different experience, and all like the learning that experience goes into ever lands brains.

We see what i'm trying to say in an unclear way, right? And so as a result of this, like he's built up this very unique set of knowledge that maybe no, probably nobody else on the planet head and IT also gives you ideas like where things may be going. So in nineteen seventy, he is going to predict what sounds a lot of a lot like a smart phone. In one thousand nine hundred seventy, Edwin land stood before a movie crew in an empty factory outside boston. And without a script, describe the deep future photography.

We are still a long way from the camera that would be, oh like the telephone, something you use all day long, a camera which you would use not on the occasion for parties only or for trips only or when your grandchildren come to see you but a camera that you would use as often as your pencil or your eyeglasses, it's going to be something that's always with you, he said. And IT would be effortless point should see the gesture would be as simple as and here he demonstrated IT reaching into his coat, taking a wallet out of your breast pocket, holding IT up and pressing a button. This is the punch line.

His future is our present. And what he's describing pretty nearly is a smartphone. In nineteen seventy, however, the only place you'd see such a thing was in a rerun of star track.

Now when to get to the part where I mentioned earlier, and the note here is like how your product is today is probably not the ideal way you want IT to be. That is Normal. IT took land thirty years to get there.

So I think the implication of the story of Edward, I don't quit, just keep working on IT. You've already found, if you're lucky, ough already found your lifework. Why would you stop? And with remarkable, there's documentation of land.

Corn has shot decades before. As early as one thousand nine hundred forty four, land had told bill mccoy, who was like a second command. They had like a weird relationship.

They are gonna to having a fight that leaves, that makes land lead the company. But a land told bill mccoy what he really wanted to build, and he was nothing but Grace mko never forgot the conversation I remember very well. He said, you know, I can imagine a camera that is simply easy to use. You simply looked through the view finder and you pushed the shutter and outcomes a finished dry photograph in full color.

Twenty eight years later, IT seemed both wildly advanced and within reach because the first, uh polar r cameras did that right but they didn't do in color so like, ah they did sapp a and then black and White and I may have the order reversed, but there was no the what he was suck most yeah, I had this idea. I saw one hundred forty three and I got all of IT, except what took two thousand and seventy two to get. He's talking about knowing the size of the camera, but also the fact that the the print would be in color.

And here's what's fascinating is because we're going to see another parallel between polaroid and SONY land. You exactly help to teach and how neat he wanted this camera to be. He went to one of his top engineers with a wooden box IT measured about three point five by six point five inches.

The camera should be this size and told them, and the photographer will hold IT vertical in front of his eyes and then click the shutter. Why that size? Why did lane want that size? IT was so IT would fit in your coat pocket, so then you would Carry IT with you often and easily.

And this is an ever stated I I don't think land made many decisions for financial reason, but the reason if you think about like why is that and so important that you Carry with you. Therefore, the more you Carry with you, the more you use IT. Well, most of them, their profits came from high margin film.

So if we make the care of smaller, they keep more likely care with you. If you more likely care with you, you take more pictures. And if you take more pictures, just spend more money and fill.

Now the reason I say is a parallel ony here is because land is not the first person to try to fit product they're making into a pocket IT kind of gets there is you like a big pocket for a for a land camera. But I was a little is like in the story of SONY, they have this idea there. I K we're going to make a SONY, that is, were going to make a small radio powered, a small radio powered by batteries.

And our goal, like the the KO, gave the goal for the SONY engineers, just like land, is giving the goal for the polar and engineering. Our goal is that he needs to be small enough to fit into a shirt pocket. And he's like, we don't want IT portable, we want IT pocketable.

And so they get IT done, but it's a little larger. Then they just funny that they did this back and day because again, there there is an element of human ship to great entrepreneurship, isn't there? So says that was a big i'm reading for made in japan right now.

IT was a bit bigger than standard men's pocket, and that gave us a problem. We like the idea of being able to demonstrate how simple would be to drop into a shirt pocket. So we came up with a simple solution.

We had some shirts made for a salesmen with slightly larger, the Normal pockets, just big enough to slip the radio into. And the note, I love myself when I read that book by two years ago, what do you do when your pocket size, the radio doesn't fit into a pocket? You make the pocket bigger.

So I just mentioned, I don't think land made many decisions exclusively on finance. The way to think about land, the best, the best description of the founders were on the company i've ever heard was that the founders, the guarding of the company, soul, the founder is the of the company saw. And you usually see that because the best founders that saw in the game and IT becomes apparent now only what like how they build the company in what products building, and like the love and energy they put into IT, but how they speak about IT.

I said, i've told you over over again, I know fifteen different times that i've read three bug with events of for I and if you hear and so describes his car. He describes his car, which is his product, like the way you would describe your lover. And so we see land doing the exact same thing here.

Land, when so far is the claim that the S. X 7， which is like, is the best product you made, right, had the power to heal all the rifts in contemporary life. Here is what he had to say in one long sentence.

Remember, before I read you, he's talking about a product. This is insane. We would not have known and only just learn that a new kind of relationship between people and groups is brought into being by the essex seventy when the members of a group are photographing and being photographed and sharing the photographs.

IT turns out that buried within us, there is late interest in each other. There is tenderness, curiosity, excitement, affection and humor. IT turns out in this cold world where man grows distant from man, and even lovers can reach each other only briefly, that we have a yen for, and a primordial competence for a quiet, good humor delay in each other.

We have a prehistoric tribal competence for a non physical, non emotional, non sexual satisfaction in being partners in the lonely exploration of a once empty planet. So hearing that, is that any wonder that the founder that speaks that way about his creation is not optimising for the bottom line, but optimizing for the most impact. And you know that because you see how much money he put into his product demonstrations, here's the most legendary example of that.

When IT comes to a beautiful extra vacances, everyone remembers the tulip's soon after the full roll out of the asx seven. This is the colliver's rate alcohol wolf GTA call, asking him to come to land's office. You're duck, right? Land test.

We need ten thousand of these and handed him a top of a variety called keys, nelly. And he was important because it's a kind of tool that is has a very viBrant yellow and red. And those the viBrant yellow on red is the the colors are look the best on the film that comes on the S X seventy.

So he says the meeting was just a few weeks away, so the product demonstration just a few weeks away. And what ve had to immediately find a farmer who was willing to accelerate his crop to hit the deadline, then he had to strike a further deal with K, L. M, royal dutch airlines to air express the tools PS from the city and and skilled people, I guess, to boston, where they could be rushed to the meeting.

All the resulting photos of flowers were, of course, lovely. IT was another unforgettable land and demonstration, this one at a god awful expense. So there's both strength and weakness to this financial recklessness when IT comes to, hey, i'm putting quality above everything else, including the finances.

That is thinking that land chairs of people like enter for world disney, that works. If your product is a hit and people can get that anywhere else, that same trade can also cause your downfall. That is when your product fails.

And that is what causes land to lose the company that he gave his entire life to. So land spent hundreds of millions of dollars on research development of this thing called polar vision. You could think of IT is like a small handheld camera to make home movies that were becoming extremely popular at this point in history.

Except his version, the movies were only three minutes long and there was no sound. And this is where his friend kim mara tells him, like, this is a bad idea. You're too late.

He obviously knows because there's cm quarters, there's data, max is V H is also the technology that's popping up that is just superior to what land has spent decade after decade in hundreds of millions of dollars IT just he was just too late. There's basic what a kio total. And I just wants to pull out that.

I guess there's two ideas that I think are important actually know i'll read that to after I be detection in the past. And had push his company to produce new products at the very edge, what the market might bear, every big bet from the sheep polar ized through the asset. Seventy had required a leap of faith, a trust that the genius in charge was right.

He's never been wrong before people seem to be saying, and he's made us all rich. He must know something that we don't. At least one outsider knew Better shortly before polar vision came to market, a cuma ito, the founder, chairman of SONY and a good friend of land lands in many ways.

His japanese counterpart, pater, called the land in cambridge, and a demonstration was arranged. So after the demonstration, land asmara. Well, what do you think of that? Mario responded.

H, well, you can sell fifty thousand of anything. It's an unbelievable scientific development. But you're too late.

He was right. The number of buyers couldn't begin to cover the development cost. The letter showed A A sixty eight million dollars write down.

I've seen other estimates that the numbers five times as large that they lost hundreds of millions of dollars on this for the first time, lands, ego and high handiness were not backed up by perfect sense of what people want IT. And so the two notes I had was a car. A new polivy was too late.

The other was eventual failure. Failure is inevitable. No one stays on top forever. And that is something I learned from grandpa charlie monger.

And so think about how many businesses and founders charlie has analyzed over his extremely long career. And I think he adds weight to what he says here over the very long term. History shows that the chances of any business surviving in a manner agreeable to a company's owners are slim at best.

So I read that a long time ago that comes from the book to tell charlie monger. I saw the note I left myself a few years ago when I read that, and he says, you should take your craft seriously, but don't make yourself miserable. None of us get out of this alive.

So again, charlie says, all the very long term history shows that the chances of any business surviving in a manner agreeable to accompanies owners, our slim at best, Edwin land is one of the greatest entrepreneurs to ever do IT. But if you live long enough, failure is a inevitable. And so as a result of the failure, Polly vision, there's a reorganisation.

Land still is there. But the president is now bill macon and is. So this is where land and polaroid break up.

In one thousand nine hundred seventy eight, polaroid had more than twenty thousand employees. By one thousand nine hundred ninety one, IT had five thousand. A decade later, polar ID was bankrupt.

Was the problem simply that polar I did not work without every land can? Elson, the chairman of digital equipment corporation and a long time polaroid board member, said that land was teaching him how not to do succession. Other executives who had hope to inherent land's chair had eventually gave up in left polar orage general manager bolted in one thousand nine hundred and seventy five.

His departure shook up wall sty analysts even further. And bill mccoy, he was able to use that as leverage, demanding the company's presidency. Both men knew that a second high profile departure would give the impression of a company that was in chaos.

Macon had a strange relationship with land after taking over. Although land was still chairman and director researcher, he had to get approval for his project sort of, and the resulting friction was unsustainable. The final break came a few years later.

Lan had wanted to make a small camera, one that would be barely larger than a pack of cigarettes. As his team figured out what to do, he became land's role to get the project budgeted. He approach mccoy, who didn't want to do IT land, countered, saying, either you fund this or I quit.

Mon said, no. And that was that, though he retained a lab for a couple of years, that arrangement would end soon enough. After forty five years, Edwin land was leaving polar d.

The founder cut all of his ties and sold all of his stock. He didn't say IT out loud, but the sentiment was pretty clear. If I can't play this game my way, i'm not sticking around.

In retirement, he kept doing what he loved without distraction to feed his admitted addiction of an experiment, a day land financed creation of a research institution called the rolling institute of science. The rolling kept him busy and content even as age related health problems began to approach upon him. On march first nineteen ninety one, land died at the age of eighty one.

The worldwide web was nine weeks old. And that is where I leave IT for the full story. Read a book. If you buy the book using the linked, its in the shower in your parking player, you ll be supporting the pocket the same time you could also find the links for this book and every other book I found out podcast a com that is two hundred and sixty four books down one thousand ago. And i'll talk you again soon.

There's a great line in one of Edwin lands biography, where IT said land represented a generation of scientists that you would encounter if you were a Young researcher. In late nineties, these older generation scientists blew their own glass. Did their own machines make their own parts? They knew everything, and they were independent.

Edwin land would insist on making the machines that make his machine, in other words, making the machines that make his products. My version of this is founders note. So for years, since two thousand and eighteen, i've been putting all of my notes and highlights and now transcripts for every single book that I read, or every single episode made into this giant sociable.

And I did this because, as I was reading hundreds and hundreds of these five, if I realized there is no way when to be able to keep all of this on my head, and I need to be able to search and pull IT up on demand when I need IT. So any time you hear me reference, like you just heard a past episode, a past founder, past book, that is me searching through founders notes, this is, I need to be very clear about. I built this tool for myself and use IT for years before I made IT publicly available to other people.

And so if you go to founders note to dot com and you sign up, the tool that you see is exactly what I see. I don't have a separate sion. And then originally, I thought i'd be the only person in the world. I would never see this. But what I realized by having all this information in one giant database, and I allows you to search IT, and I could actually is a bunch of different ways you can go through this, but allowing you to search IT, what I realized is that gives you the superpower being able to tap into the collective knowledge of his success on the man when you need IT. Like I said at the beginning of this podcast, I think the founder park, cast as a tool, but the podcast is pushed to you, founders, notes, gives you the control to pull out the information when you need IT.

And so there's several different features, not just explain to, I use each one, the very first one, the one to use the mode the most says search lights, that is very standard, is a key word search, any term, idea, person, book, anything that I comes to mind that I want to more information about, I type into the search I light box at pole and search all of the notes and highlights, all the transcripts and any time that keyword is mentioned. Another way to search is by using the AI system that lives in founders notes that I call sage. And so you ask sage a question and then it'll do all the reading and condenser for you.

So i'm going to just list off a couple of saved the last few saved chats that i've used sage for. So let me just give some examples of some of the searches that i've used age for recently. I just read about five one two right now.

How did Edwin land find new employees to hire? Where there any unusual sources to find talent? Second one, if charlie monger had a top ten rules for life, what do you think those rules would be?

Number three, another one I asked, if anyone in was alive today, what industry do you think you be working in? Number four, what are the most important things to know about that? I use that search all the time.

What are the most important? enter? Any founder that i've covered made a podcast on is very, very helpful for me. And then finally, what did David learn most from his dinner with charlemont? And so age producers is this very concise summer.

And a list of idea is is usually in bullet point former numbers list, which is how I love to organize information. And so it's just in a few minutes, you get a great overview. And then of course, you can see the sources and you can go actually read every single thing that, say red, which you know would be by ten times, fifteen times long and maybe twenty times longer than they can.

Summer IT gives you another future that founders note, as is called the highlight feet, this will give you random highlights just completely. Rena motor, I use this all the time as a prompt for my own thinking, and so I click on her right now. Gives me rn m highlight from this biography of Michael Jordan, uh, highlight from this biography of Opera, highlight from portuguese omai, highlight from t Turners automotive phy, a highlight from ed cat mall the founder pix autobots phy uh, found a highlight from one one of Vincent churches biography founder from the bike phy of bad.

And this is never ending fee that you can just read and throat. And again, I use IT really as a proper thinking. And of course, you can search by books.

So let's say, hey, I don't really know there's nothing a really one search for. You can go to review and see all my highlights for specific books. You can also see all the transcripts for all my episodes and be able to read and search to them.

And all this, taken together, I would argue, the most valuable database in the world. And comes to learning from his entrepreneurs. And it's something i'm going to constant. I I can't make a pockets for not IT, so I have to update IT all the time because I can't do my work without IT is the machine that makes the machine.

If you are also obsessive learning for ministry like I am, i'd highly recommend going to founders notes dot com and signing up today, that is, founders notes with A S dot com, just like the podcast. Thank you very much for your support. Thank you very much for listening and not talk to again soon.