letting the public in with Raven Symoné and Miranda Maday
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Okay, hi guys. Welcome back to X's and O's. I'm your host Shannon Beveridge and I cannot believe, I cannot believe, I cannot believe the guest today. I truly am like beside myself. It's crazy, crazy, crazy. I'm so happy. I'm so lucky. I'm so blessed. I love this podcast so much. It's like truly like changing my life in all the best ways and I am like beyond grateful. So, so happy.

And just a couple of things to tell you. My Friend of Dorothy merch is all live right now. You can go and check it out. The link is in the bio below or nowthisisliving.shop. And there are sweatshirts, t-shirts, shorts, carabiners, hats, like everything you can imagine is on there. So go check it out. And yeah, I'm stoked to have like pride merch that's not rainbow affiliated, but we love a rainbow. We love a rainbow. Thank you for all the rainbow has done for the queer people. Thank you so much.

But every once in a while, you don't want to wear a rainbow. Am I right? So check out my merch. It's all there in the link in the bio. Also, a huge shout out to TomboyX for sponsoring this episode. It is only fitting that they would since they were also the first ever...

the first ever sponsor of X's and O's podcast, which is awesome. And I'm so grateful to them. And it only makes sense that they should be the first pride sponsor this month because they are a queer owned company. And we love that. Love to see it. And you guys can check out the link in the bio for their products as well. And okay, mental health check. I really, I'm just so happy that it

It really is not interesting right this second, but yeah, I'm so stoked and I'm so stoked for Pride. I hope you're so happy that it's Pride and also it like feels like summer, which is amazing. Like it's getting warmer. I love to be outside. I'm so happy. This is just like a whole four-minute intro of me being like, I'm so happy. I'm so happy, but I am so happy. And last but not least, the

the patreon content for this week is going to be a live stream instead of extra bonus content it's going to be a live stream and the live stream will be at 5 p.m pst 8 p.m est so when you're watching this if you're watching it the day it came out you can go to patreon and there's a special guest there will be a special guest on my patreon live stream she's here with me right now drum roll please

I only have one hand because I don't have mic stands and I should have them. I always get yelled at for it. But anyway, the one, the only, Debbie Beveridge. Hi, everybody. I hope everybody has a happy pride and have lots of fun out there and hope to see some people out and about. That'd be fun. What's your shirt say?

And, yes, if anybody needs a free mom hug, just come look me up. So we will be live tomorrow answering questions, hanging out, having a good time, probably for about an hour. So if you're watching this, please come and hang out with us. The link is in the bio below. It's also just patreon.com slash nowthisisliving. Okay, let's get right into the episode because I'm so stoked about it. Okay, happy Pride. Happy Pride. ♪♪♪

Okay, hi guys, welcome back to X's and L's, a podcast where we talk about queer relationships and sex. I'm so fucking excited for the guest today. Actually can't fucking believe it. I cannot. I'm a little nervous, so hopefully it doesn't come off that way. But we have Raven and Miranda.

Thanks for inviting us in your bed. Oh my god, thanks for actually coming. Like really? When I started this podcast, I did not think Raven's mom would be in my bed. That is crazy.

That is crazy. Don't say that again. I'm like, well, at least all three of us are on that bed. And you. No, it's okay. Together. Together, obviously. Obviously. And honestly, we have Miranda to thank for this because, well, we have Mikayla to thank for this. She does my hair. Let's give a shout out to Mikayla. Shout out to Mikayla. We love you, Mikayla. Shout out Mikayla Curry. She does both of our hair. Not that I ever let anyone see mine, but it is lovely. Under here, if I ever show it, it's great. And that's all thanks to Mikayla. You weren't Mikayla's doula, were you? No.

Not technically, but I definitely helped her. Yeah. And I think she didn't have...

a doula other than me, but I definitely was present and had conversations with her and participated in the birth of her baby as much as I could over the phone. Oh my God, he's the cutest baby. His hair is so cute and curly. He's getting so cute. Golden angel. How did you become a doula? Not to just jump right into it, but... No, we can jump right in. Okay, guys, I'm so, so, so excited to tell you that the first Pride sponsor we have this month is TomboyX.com.

If you've been watching the show for a while, you know that Tomboy X has been supporting X's and O's for a long time, since the very first episode. So I'm so excited to have them for the very first Pride episode.

It's very fitting because they are a queer-owned company. If you're not familiar with Tomboy X, they create sustainable size and gender-inclusive underwear, swimwear, and loungewear. I'm obsessed with them. I wear it all the time. But in honor of Pride, we decided instead of me telling you how much I love the products, I'm going to read some of y'all's reviews of the products you've bought yourself. I'm going to read them. So if you're watching, I'm reading because...

I don't have this all memorized, okay? I may look smart. I actually don't know if I look smart, but I'm going to read them. The first one, five stars, obviously. Your butt wants these. Tomboy X hipsters are the best undies ever. I love the fun prints, the feel, and the fit. That's from Junie in Long Beach, California. Thanks, Junie. We are so happy that you love them. I love them too. Another five-star review.

Stairs. They don't bunch, creep, or crawl. They're the only things I want in my underwear drawer. That's from Joyful. Joyful, I agree with you. And last one, five stars. Keeps the doggies in check. I personally like this one a lot. Very comfy. I hate bras and I keep looking for tolerable ways to lift my low-hanging boobs to where they used to be without being aware of their confinement. This is the least annoying one I've found. Plus, it gives good sweat absorption.

Okay, Sue. If you haven't already gotten your hands on some of Tomboy X's products, you can go to TomboyX.com and use the code SHANNON at checkout for 20% off everything. And during Pride Month, they're giving 21% off. So don't wait. Go.

Go now. So I was always really drawn to women and maternal health and babies from the time I was a little girl. I remember just like begging my mom to have a baby because I wanted to play with it. And I was volunteering at my little like nursery school as a seven year old.

um so i kind of had a natural instinct and draw towards that world as i got older that maintained it obviously shifted a little bit but actually when raven and i moved to new york in 2016

There was a birth center called Carriage House Birth and Domino Kirk, who is a big time doula. She's also married to Penn Badgley for anyone who doesn't know who she is. She had this great birth center and I was like, these women are badass. They're all like tattooed and yeah, like me. They're like tattooed. She's really tatted. If you really go through it. She's really tatted. But they just seemed like this group of

emotionally intelligent, interesting women who were obviously supporting women and ushering life in. And I was really like, I want to do this. Didn't end up happening then. But a few years later, after we moved back to LA, I did finally decide that I was going to pursue this. And I am a person who is kind of particular. I had a hard time with school. If there's anything that kind of like bumps me, meaning like, okay, you can go, but it's an hour drive or you have

going to have a really hard time parking, I step away from it. When I went to go sign up. I relate to that. Yeah. Right? Deeply. I'm like, I'm going to stay home, I think. Yeah. I'd rather not. Especially with my car. I'm like, I can't, if I can't park, I got to stay. Or Uber. And I don't want an Uber. No, no, no. Anyway, not to distract you. No, no, no. But when I started researching doula training, everything was so...

It was like, okay, a training starts in three weeks, which I love because I have three weeks until like mentally prepare as opposed to like training starts tomorrow. I'd be like, oh my God, training starts in three weeks. It's 15 minutes from your house. I looked up and it's like, there's meter parking right out front. It was like absolutely perfect.

and it couldn't have been a more wonderful experience for me. And that was it. I just like fell into it, took my training, started working and then the pandemic hit and then everything kind of shifted. But it's like meant to be kind of. It was meant to be. I haven't returned to that work because Raven and I are so busy in what we're doing. And obviously doula work is so consuming. Yeah. I don't know that it's something I'm going to actively be doing anytime soon. Yeah.

I think I would do it. I think if you've had the right person, if somebody came to you that you could not resist, like if her sister or a family member, me or somebody. I was going to say, that's going to be your doula. I mean, that will be so like helpful when, if you guys do have kids, right? To have that experience. Yeah. I can't even imagine. Childbirth is really scary to me.

She made it scary for me. I wasn't scared until I met her and she told me all the things. Oh, good. I was like, oh, this is scarce. But... But also beautiful. But also beautiful, but also not as scary when you're actually in it because like she says, and I think that's what makes her a fantastic doula, it's like you're a female, your body's made for it. Yeah. Yeah. It makes me sad that you say that I scared you because I would never... I saw those pictures, babes. I saw all the pictures. The photos and things. Okay, because my...

My belief is that the fear culture that has been developed around birth is actually not something that I would ever want to support or continue in that narrative because I think that it makes sense that people are fearful, but I think that at the same time, a lot of the fear is based on

from misinformation or just the idea of it being an unknown thing. But again, like I do often say women's bodies are made to birth and

I believe with the right support and education. And you know what, honestly, sometimes like you don't even, it's about connecting to yourself because it's not about anyone outside of you giving you some key to how to birth. It's like, I believe every woman has the ability and everything she needs within herself to do it. So there has to be something innately wired in us, obviously, but also I'm sure big pharma is a

like doing something there, right? Yeah. They're trying to scare us. 100%. And they're successful. And they've medicalized it. Yeah. You know? But at least now women are like surviving childbirth.

and women are living longer than men yeah yeah there it is yeah silver lining silver lining of western medicine exactly okay but i will give it that there's huge disparity between white women versus women of color surviving birth and that is something that needs attention and conversation i so crazy i remember when i learned that fact and i was like what the yeah

Like here in this country. Like it's it's really it's really horrible. It's really crazy. OK, that also leads me to I was watching some of y'all's interviews you've done before. And I watched something where you said you guys got together quickly. Right. And then you got married quickly. Well, you were together for like six months and broke up. Yes. At the beginning. Right. And we're together longer than six months. Like about a year. Yeah. Right. OK. Longer.

But then, Raven, you said a part of why you guys broke up is because you're white. Yeah. Would you like to expand on that? Would you like me to expand on that? Okay. Yeah, sure. In my culture, there's history. There's definitely history. And as that history grows into the now, it's not...

It's not outwardly chastising of you're with a white person anymore. It's a quiet... I imagine it's different. Well, it's a quiet undertone in conversation of a disgust type of thing because it's not outward as much as it used to be for very good reason. Yeah. And so when we were together...

The undercurrent that I was feeling when we would go out, I'd be like, I can't hold hands right now. Or, you know, I felt people looking at me and judging me in that way. Totally. And so that's one of the things I didn't express to her because I felt as if

That was me being racist. Weird. Interesting. Like, why should I care about the color of your skin? Yeah. Is it also like internalized some of that too? Like thinking that people were thinking those things? No, I'm glad people were thinking that. You're like, no, it was real. Because it came out. True. It came out. 100%. I'm sure. It's also like...

I don't know, that's such a unique position for both of you to be in because it's like you can't change it and you also can't change culture. So it's like, what does that do for your relationship? And obviously you decided to break up.

And I think I cared more because there was something about her that I knew was going to be different subconsciously because I had dated a white man before. I dated all colored people. And she was the only one where I was like, this is going to be dangerous. And it wasn't just my skin, right? It was also the fact that I asked a lot of questions and I was very emotionally one.

Like I... You were too white. Too white. Not just the color of the skin. Just like... The culture. Too white in terms of the culture too. Yeah, just the questioning and whatnot. It was sad to me though when I found that out because I had no clue that she was struggling with any of that. But I will say that...

I understand now why there was hesitation. And I think maybe not even so much just because like, yes, I was white. Obviously, I still am. But also, yeah. But also, I feel like you pick. I'm kind of pink. But was it was there also an element to where it's like you had like you'd had like

Reservation about going public with a person to like what do you have been more reserved about anyone? In the public eye with your relationship. Oh, yeah, I wasn't trying to I mean that was everyone no one I dated back then got to see the light of day except for one of my girlfriends because she was on Empire and we went out a couple of times and had parties and stuff like that, but

I always knew in my system whoever I got married to would be the person that the world would know. You know, not really dating because... Hey world. Not really dating because in my growing up and my education it's like

dating is fickle. You don't know what's going to happen. Marriage is forever. And so you got to, you know, be very deliberate in what you choose to put out into the world. Totally. And even nowadays, marriage is still fickle because, you know, back and forth, back and forth. So,

I already knew that whoever I chose was going to be that way. And there were a lot of feelings behind why I broke up. But that was a really big one for me, to be honest with you. And the cherry on top was you asking too many questions. Understood. The cherry on top. And it makes sense because I will say that. The condensed milk on top. The condensed milk. Of the shaved ice. Yeah, there you go. The condensed milk is very, well, I guess I'm not really red. Anyhow. And pink sprinkles. The cup.

Coming out in terms of our relationship publicly after being married, it was quite interesting to me to receive the level of backlash, hate, criticism because we're an interracial couple. I was really shocked by it and clearly Raven was already aware. More prepared that that was going to happen. You could have given me a heads up. But you're so sensitive, baby. I just want to know what to do. You would have said, you're going to get a lot of hate, Miranda. Get ready. And I would be like, okay.

Hate knee pads on, hate vest on. Let's go. Maybe it was like wishful thinking that it wouldn't happen. Right. Maybe. Maybe. But obviously it didn't happen. The world's got to go through its thing. So you've never been public with another couple, like with another relationship other than kind of the other person you're saying. Correct. That's crazy because you guys really went zero to 100 to go from like not telling people about your relationship at all to having a podcast together and sitting down and

and exposing your relationship and the inner dynamics of your relationship. How are you guys doing? As someone who has done that, and I've had a channel with an ex-girlfriend of mine, so we were very much, people were seeing our dynamic often. And then you open yourself up to scrutiny also. And also shipping, there's both sides, right? There's the love you get and the hate you get. So how are you? We're doing fine. So it's interesting because I...

still do not project our relationship through the camera no matter how much people think they're seeing our relationship. Totally. Same. Yeah. Yeah. You know, yes, we are here. We're telling stories about our life, but you guys don't know our relationship. There's still a filter always. There has to be. There has to be. Yeah. But also I'm sure you've had years and years and years to like desensitize yourself also just to feedback in general. Whereas

This is probably a newer experience for you, newer as in just within your relationship of like getting a lot of feedback in general, especially from strangers. It's a very unique. Is it feedback when it's from a stranger or is it just judgment?

I mean, no, it's mostly, it's mostly judgment. It's a lot of hate. I mean, I like to think of some of it as feedback, especially as a queer person. I know that I, I'll say something wrong sometimes or like I can make a mistake for sure. And I want feedback. I want to be told like, hey, when you say this next time, like this is more inclusive or whatever. Right. To me, that's feedback. There's definitely hate, which is just bullshit. And then there's like, but there's layers of it. Right. Yeah.

But when you've never had it, I like can't, I can't even imagine your experience and I can't like together the juxtaposition of the two of you. It's like night and day. Like you have complete different experiences because you've been in the public eye for

Do you even remember not being famous? I started being famous at 16 months old. Yeah. So like, you know, nothing else. And you also knew nothing else before. So that has to be like a, I don't know, an interesting thing to traverse together. I've had to have experiences with people I've dated who weren't necessarily as public as me. Also, I'm like, you know, an influencer, YouTuber, content creator, like the level of that

attention is different too than like a like paparazzi don't follow me you know I never have so you got a lot of people that follow you no I definitely I definitely have experiences that are similar but like yours is just like astronomical and then to go into that and then to go into it so like

i don't know i think it's really admirable that you guys are able to sit down and still do your podcast and talk and like you're brave enough to join that well i think honestly if i was just a completely like green person to the industry yeah because you've been around yeah so it's like my upbringing part of why raven and i can connect in this way is because i

I too have had a unique experience in the industry. So my father worked a big title job. I grew up on sets, on studio lots, around very famous people, around very powerful industry players. And I...

Yeah.

Like no one was like freaking out. It was like we just finished eating our matzo ball soup and went on with our day. Pause. Jerry's Deli is a place that no one will ever be able to experience again because they're all closed. One of the best delis in Los Angeles. Rest in peace. Yeah, it was really great. But rip Jerry's Deli. I have so many memories there. But anyhow, point being is that it didn't feel super overwhelming. And I think that part of me...

has always been prepared or wanted the attention that comes from being in front of a camera. I can be behind a camera and I can be in front of a camera. And so I think that

It has been an adjustment and there are certain things because I think that what Raven was saying earlier, my initial approach to like what I wanted to do in front of the camera was be really vulnerable and really open and have these honest conversations about things that I felt people wanted to talk about or wanted to hear about. And not that I had some like unbelievably unique or brilliant take.

or anything, but it's just like, let's have these conversations. More people need to have these conversations and especially around the things that we are finding taboo. But what I understood or I've now come to understand is that people...

in celebrity world don't actually want that fan wise. They say they do. They say they want to see who this celebrity is, you know, behind the curtain. But then once that celebrity shows you who you are, they just are ready to rip you down. They want you to be the character they think you are. They want you to be the brand that they think that they've fallen in love with you for. And if you

tear that veil down, they become really angry. So now what it's become is more like having to juggle the celebrity lane that Raven has, then having to kind of align my desire and my narrative into that. So that's the balance, but the hate and the, and the comments and things of that nature, like it did get overwhelming recently for,

And we don't even have to go into that. And we had to kind of like nip it in the bud. But prior to that, it's just like it comes with the territory. And I was fully prepared for that. Totally. I mean, I will just say, I think it's one thing to witness that your whole life and another thing to then start to like receive it. So for sure. I'm just saying like, I hope you give yourself grace because that's like a huge switch from just being like, yeah, I know people get a lot of feed. Like I know people get a lot of hate, but then to get it yourself is

It's a very overwhelming experience. She's a fast learner. She actually...

In the scheme of my life and our relationship together, she learned it pretty fast. And the feedback that we're getting from our own people and our own team, I think has also helped steered her thought process. Totally. And where it goes. And, you know, there's no better way to learn than... Boots on the ground. Boots on the ground type of thing. Totally. Yeah. Also, the online of it all is like such a unique experience because you can...

you can log off, like you can turn it off. And when I think people don't realize that like in like our day to day, the internet is as powerful as we let it be, you know, as much as we decide to look at it, that's how real it is or isn't because it's,

When we're walking around, hanging out with the people we hang out with, talking to the people we talk to, that is like just like a little snippet of it. Right. So but that's a skill you have to learn also, because I have watched people let it like consume them. Right. Like when something goes bad, when something is happening to not be able to look away from it.

And I've been, I'm guilty of it too sometimes when something happens and I'm like, oh my God, checking the comments every five seconds. Like even my episode with Jojo Siwa that came out today, because it's Wednesday right now. It's been hard for me to like look away and not want to like also engage. Yeah. There's a big part of you that wants to stick up. Like I want to stick up for Jojo. I want to stick up for myself. But then you're like, okay, what in this is actually worth talking to? And what is just people wanting a reaction out of you?

And knowing what is right is, first of all, it's impossible because it's case by case and there is no rule book to the internet. Like every scandal, everything is like a new learning experience for all of us. And we all have to watch and not everyone's even paying that much attention. But like you're literally watching people rise and fall and rise and fall. And also this whole idea of cancel culture in general. I'm like, who is actually canceled?

Who is actually canceled? Harvey Weinstein's getting out of jail. Like who? Even the most cancelable. He's getting a retrial.

But it's not possible to cancel anyone because if you actually canceled someone, then you would put them in a hole in the bottom of the earth and never see them again. That's what people are expecting to happen when you cancel someone. And that doesn't happen. It doesn't happen. No. Do you guys, do you want to talk about what happened to y'all and your TikTok? The experience of that?

Yeah, I mean, we totally can. And sure. Yeah, I think that experience for me, again, it was interesting. Okay, because for me, like you were just saying, people will just comment to comment sometimes. And I think that it's literally like, I'm looking right now at your door, right? And I could just be like, that's a door. That's what a person sometimes I think will look that surface level at you.

people talking and then just want to say something. They'll hear a snippet and they'll be like, Miranda is the most stupid person ever, but you've just heard a snippet. You don't really know me. And there is part of my head that understands how to just take that and know it because the people in my life who know me, they don't think that of me. What changed about this specific scenario was I think

I think that the people who started talking on it had platforms and most haters don't. They're like user 1559 whatever and then they go on with their life. And when things end up going viral and then the conversation grows and grows, it's

it can be a little bit messy. What I was experiencing really kind of developed though into this thing where I was getting threats and being bombarded and it wasn't stopping. And I think that that changed for me and it did affect me. It did actually like start, I hate to admit that, but it like really started bumming me out. And I think mostly because I couldn't rationalize it in my mind. I think for me, I'm the type of person who

likes fairness and justice and if it was a situation where I had said something that was really kind of terrible that I then had to like publicly apologize for I would have understood I would have been like you know what those people found my Twitter from when I was 15 and I was saying stupid shit and now it's exposed and you know I was saying really stupid shit and I'm sorry I have like grown since but honestly what I said was

was that I didn't grow up watching my wife on television, but have since seen all of it. And I love it. Yeah. Like it just wasn't adding up in my mind. So the frustration and the anger and the need that I felt to kind of like, you know, defend myself was overwhelming for a minute. And it just kind of sucked. It just sucked. It totally sucks. I think there's, it also was a testament to TikTok and the power of TikTok because it

I think a lot of things get taken out of context on TikTok. It's really easy to react to one, especially like, and we're all using TikTok, even like podcasters, right? To try to promote the podcast. And you're like, so you're taking an hour long conversation, trying to find the best 30 to 30 seconds to a minute. And of course, it's really easy to take that out of context. And people don't go and watch. They see what they see. And then they're just like,

Yeah, I always knew she sucked, you know, and it's tough because you're like, you can know that you can know that that's true. And it's still really, really hard to like compartmentalize that and not want to defend yourself. But do you guys do you regret doing it? Like, do you regret standing up for yourself? Do you stand by it? Do you think it was the right decision? I stand by it. I, I totally stand by it. Yeah, I think that like,

you know, a lot of people started criticizing Raven and saying that like, if we were a real couple or blah, blah, blah, she'd step up and she would defend me. And you know, that I'm all of these crazy things. So I, I felt like it was the right move at that time. And I felt pressure to say something because of that, because if,

If I was the main person going through what she was going through, I would have turned off the internet and gone on a vacation with the money that I had.

gain all the time. All the time. All the time that I'm constantly stacking. And I would have just been like, but when that, when she kept showing it to me and showing it to me and I saw how it was, you know, bumming her out and they were saying that to me, we really did have to sit down. I'm like, I will say something if that's what we need to do. I will say something if that's what we need to do. I didn't just say, hey, we're doing this because that's

We thought about it. We thought about it because I'm not... It's clearly not impulsive. It's not impulsive. But I'm not defending my wife because you hit her or you did something. You know what I mean? I'm defending people. I'm defending my wife against...

letters in a comment section do you know what i mean which just makes me go ew like that's stupid the stupidity of it all is nauseating but i think it truly is but i think that like one of the things that we talked about was the climate has changed so much like we're not the first couple to have to do this there were other people in relationships like simone biles

literally had to come forward and say, leave my husband alone, who I was being compared to. And I had to go figure out what the hell people were talking about. But like, you know, people are publicly having to do that. And again, it's just a result of, I think, what has happened in social media. So it's a bit of a reflection there. And we talked about that. And the other thing that irritated me was there were people with blue checks interjecting themselves into the conversation. And I grew up in an industry where respect

comes to those who have come before you. So even though, you know, when I grew up in that time period, it was a mess anyway, but we're not going to get into that. Like the time period of the industry that I grew up in, it was that person has been in the industry longer than you, so bow. No matter how toxic, gross, cool, awesome they are. And so when I'm seeing blue checks and checking their receipts, I am...

so senior to them in the sense of time in this industry that that's also disturbing. Comments, you know, one of the things I said to my wife at the very beginning of it, I said, sweetheart, a little hate brings celeb, honey. You're not famous until somebody hates you.

So, you know what I mean? Get them haters up. But then it got out of control. Also, I think for me too, where I was like, oh, this is really growing is like people were like calling to check in on me. People that I hadn't like talked to in a while, we would go to certain events and people were like, are you okay? Raven went to an influencer event and she came back and she was like, basically everyone was like asking me about it. And I was just kind of like, okay, this is really out of control.

growing and what do we like either and we kind of said we'll wait and see but it just felt like it was still like snowballing yeah it makes sense really genuinely did and and then and then we fixed it and then they turned us up into a meme yeah then it was like raven is scolding us we feel like we're in school we said which you know what here's the deal i knew we were still gonna get criticism for it yeah i don't expect everyone to like me i've never lived in that

like mindset where it's like, oh, I'm going to be everyone's favorite person. And if I'm not like, then boo hoo. No, people are not going to like me. I'm not going to sit well with some people. That is how the world works. That's everyone's right to like or dislike who they choose. But I think again, with this specific scenario, it was so outlandish to me and so just confusing and also a

so frustrating because I think that it became so apparent because the people who are really pushing this narrative clearly don't understand celebrity or this world. And I think that was the thing too, like the expectation that Raven would marry a fan is kind of bizarre. And then the expectation that I would have to like be the encyclopedia of Raven Simone's career, like that a person wouldn't even pause to think, oh, you know what? They're a married couple.

They're a married couple. They probably like have had conversations that I don't know about. Like maybe you don't know her. Well, we didn't have them on the internet. So therefore it never happened. Yeah, of course. But it's just ridiculous. I said this to Jojo too, but like some people don't want to understand you. They're dedicated to misunderstanding you and you're going to get that. And also it was working. That's the crazy thing about TikTok and watching things like play out. Like

When people were talking about you, those videos were going viral. When people were making memes about you looking into the camera, that was going viral. Like there's not really... Some of the stuff that people do and the motives that they do them aren't...

they don't actually care about you and they don't actually care about Raven. They're not even like, let's save Raven. They're like, this will fucking work. People are going to watch it. It's going to make me more famous. It's like, you have to remember that in all those times too, but it is really hard. And in the times I've dealt with controversy, which isn't that many, I think my tactic has always been to not say anything at all because every time I do, then it's just more eyes on it because I'm

But your experience in this thing, I think everyone was seeing. And I've had an experience like that with the song situation where that really blew up on TikTok. And there was definitely more opportunity for me to like probably say something. And at the time...

stand up for the person I was dating, but then there's so many, it's complicated because I was also trying to respect her. So, and no one knows what those conversations were and they never will because that's not my place to talk about even now. Right. But it's just like crazy because people will put words in your mouth. People will decide what they want to decide. Yeah. But I think you guys should stand by what you did, obviously. Like you obviously thought that through. And also some of the memes were a little funny, right?

I don't go on the internet. I wouldn't know. She has to bring it to me for me to see it. She brought me one. It was just us on the green screen. I'm like, oh, yeah, there it goes. Like in the school room. That's the only one I've seen actually. I only saw one where someone like stitched and then just was like scared because you really stared down the barrel of the camera. Yeah, Raven can be scary. That's what I joke. But see, that's the other thing. Like I don't bring that person out into the public a lot. Yeah, people don't know that person. People don't know me in that way. So some people –

I did see a couple of comments like on my Insta here and there, but they were like, you're not scaring us. You're not this, you're not that. I'm like, that's because I don't give that to you. I had no, Raven Simone had no reason to act like that or who I am behind closed doors because we've never had the situation before, but I'm also a human. And I'm also- You're a fully actualized person. Fully actualized person. Who they think you are. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I was intimidated, I must say. I was like, I would not say anything bad to Raven or her wife ever, ever, ever. They don't know me. My friends know me, though. They know me and my husband. They know me. Both of you and your hoodies. Yeah. I wore it because we talked about it. She wore it for you. Hilarious. Okay. Should we talk about queerness? Let's talk about it. Let's talk about like being gay in public because that is crazy. And also you spent so much of your life being gay.

not out right how was and also I want to know about your story too so we have to do both but I don't want to do I don't like to necessarily be like what's your coming out story because I feel like I do feel like a lot of you yeah sorry no oh my god oh my god no because that makes sense but my whole podcast is talking about talking to gay people so if every time I was like let's do your coming out story I feel like people would be like tired of it and especially because I my audience is skewing older and I think a lot of people are like I

I already came out. You know, that part is kind of like done. But I still do want to know, like, let's start with you. Like, what was your journey of just like self-acceptance and knowing you were gay? Yeah, my journey was it didn't have that much thought involved in it. It kind of just like naturally unfolded. I had a boyfriend at the age of 18, my first boyfriend in high school. And when we graduated, we stayed together. I started working and

going to school. I didn't get into the colleges I wanted to go to. And I met this girl while I was working and I was really, I should say woman. She was older than me. I was 19 and she was 32 and I was really drawn to her and it felt different. It felt like I had to be close. I had to know her and it, oh,

Over my life, I had had kind of what I called like infatuations with women, but they never felt sexual. It always felt like I just wanted to look like that woman or I wanted to be friends with her or I thought she was really beautiful and I wanted to kind of have the same energy. But this one felt different. And it really was like, oh, like our hands touched one day and I was like, oh my God, electricity. And she was a part of a culture that does not do anything.

Yeah, she was Armenian. Got it. And had never been with a girl before or been attracted to a girl before that she – I mean, that's what she said. Maybe she hadn't been, but – Anyway, I wasn't scared of the feelings. I didn't try and hold back. I really have always been somebody who, when it comes to –

like who I have a crush on or who I love. I just am like, I'm going for this because I think that I've always had this idea that that is going to be my person. And like, even if my parents disliked it or if I lost my friends, it wouldn't matter to me because like, you're not my person. The person I'm with is my person. Like we're going to do life together. So we just went for it. And it was difficult because she never told anyone about me. Um, and

And that was painful. And that caused a lot of issues. And her boyfriend, she broke up with- Wait, she had a boyfriend and you at the same time? No, well, she broke up with him and he wouldn't let her go. And it was really, really difficult. And he was very invasive. And I guess he had like seen us together because he was kind of like stalking her. Classic. Yeah, it was pretty wild. So that was hard. That was a hard thing to navigate. But in terms of me, my mom basically just said to me like,

I know what's going on. And I was like, well, what's going on? She's like, you're having a lot of sleepovers. And I was like, uh-huh. And she's like, and you're an adult. Like, what are you doing? Like, I can, I'm not stupid. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. Yeah. That's who I'm dating. And then I went back and forth after we broke up. Like I dated a few men after we broke up and a few girls and then met Raven. And I was like, Raven is my person.

That's so cute. But your story sounds like much more casual. Like it was kind of like you fell, you almost like fell out of the closet, you know? Right? Not just, no, she literally was like, oh my God, girls are pretty. It's like, yeah. Super casual. Jealous. Super casual. But I think again, like it just wasn't something that I was like,

analyzing or I was analyzing other things about myself I was tormented over other things and I think that that again was just an avenue of my life where I was like blinders up going for yeah totally okay what about you mine um a little more complicated a little more complex uh kissed my first girl at probably 12 oh my god maybe a little bit less maybe like 11 when's sixth grade

Yeah, like 11, 12. Also, that's so great. I just like, it's crazy to me on top of everything, not to cut you off, but it's just crazy that you are famous. Like at 11 and 12. Oh, I was like crazy. Like you already were and you're so little. Okay, continue, please. Sorry. It's a whole nother conversation. Yeah. Yeah, first girl kissed around sixth grade into that middle school lifestyle. I was friends with

I hated every girl in school except for my two besties. And I was friends with all the guys. And all the girls would be like, hey. Like, ugh, ugh, ugh. Friends with the dudes. So mad, so weird. Such a weird little child. And sneaker game was on point. Like rollerblader, don't touch me. Yeah. And then I would go to work. That's so weird. Go to work and always was just like,

saw beautiful women but didn't think about it. Wasn't having any type of sexual feelings. Just was like, oh my god, you're really pretty. Yeah. There are your nipples. And then when I started dating, the first person I ever dated, dated was a boy. That was, I could not get away from him. Emotionally, it was all, I was infatuated with this dude. We dated for seven years. Oh my gosh, wow. From like age

17, 16 to 7 years later. He cheated on me.

Good times. We're cool now. And every day I would tell him, I'm like, if we got married, you know, I need a girlfriend. Like, he was like, oh my God, my girlfriend's so gay. I'm like, no, I am. Seriously. Not joking. I'm not joking. We can have both, right? You're cool with that. You're a dude. You'll like that. And that kept happening. And I dated multiple guys in there. But I always talked about girls with my friends. Like, it was never a question that...

I was not the person who would like open the door and help the girl out or do any of that. Yeah. With my friend circle. But as soon as Raven-Symoné came on camera, I was like feminine, fish, do what I need to do. And then I had some moments. I had some moments. I had some moments. I had some moments with all different kinds of people. And then I, the saddest part of it was I was dating this guy. He was super sweet. He was from Denmark. Denmark.

And I went up to him and I was like, I'm gay, bro. Like, I don't know if I can do this dual life anymore. He was like, but, but, but. Horrible accent. But we're so cool. I'm like, I love you, man. I really do. And he even said, well, it is weird because when you're out in public, you're super girly. When you get home, you're in a hoodie. And like, you're my dude. I'm like, yeah, dude. Like, sorry, bro. I like your clothes. You can leave them here. And.

And then that's when it started. I didn't really tell my parents until later because we're not going to get into that. But the official outing outing was on Oprah. Yeah, which is crazy. Which was absolutely crazy. But I felt comfortable in the relationship that I was in. And I knew that that person had my back at that time. And I mean, even to this day, we're still, you know, fine. But it was just I felt supported no matter what.

who hated me after that interview. I knew that I could go home and my partner was down for the cause. And so then it just snowballed from there and I never went back. Yeah, well, fuck yeah. It's also crazy because

Your representation before that is like, when I think about it, it's like the Ellen's of the world, really. The timing of what that could have meant for your career is like, you didn't have necessarily good representation in that it could be okay, right? So were you scared? I wasn't scared when I finally said something because I said it the day the government said that.

You could get married. Gay marriage is legal. And I was like, the government has my back. Yeah, that's nice. You know what I mean? Like, the government has my back. I'm good. I was actually out getting fried chicken that day up the street. So I was just like, the government's cool. Life is fine. But beforehand, yeah. Which is why the other day we were at a party and this guy came up that I've known since I was 15. And he was the first guy that I went up to. And I was like, will you be my beard? He's like, what? I'm like, you know me, bro. I just...

I can't do these guy things anymore, but I have to be this way in public. Like that was the actual conversation. Because I heard so many people in our industry had that back in the day. And so she met him. I did. Was he a good beard? Would you pick him?

Yeah, totally. He's super cute and seemed very like down for whatever. Yeah. Well, it's also crazy the timing of like your fame because now you've like gone through the trajectory of no social media to social media. I mean, we've all gone through that experience just as human beings of like what life was like without Instagram and TikTok and Snapchat and Twitter and everything like.

I feel like it's such a different time for celebrity now because there is way less separation between the public and the private. Like everyone kind of, most people are having to like share a lot more than they did maybe when in 2015, even if you think about it, it's like crazy how much,

were expected to like share almost, you know? And then, I mean, you guys are obviously choosing to share so much more because you have your podcasts and stuff too. And still, I still keep the flag of I do not share a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really do not. And I...

managers that have dropped me or, you know, tried to pick me up. It's like, you're going to have to post more. I'm like, you're going to have to shut up. I mean, it's so crazy. I'm not doing that. Yeah. It's crazy to watch mainstream media try to figure out what to do with social media. I remember I took, I'm kind of like a,

older YouTuber, like more of an OG YouTuber. And I remember I took a meeting with CAA like in 2016 or something. And they were just like, so do you want to act? Like, would you direct? Would you do this? And I was just like, I mean, I'm doing this right now. And they did not have any fucking idea what to do with me. Then now you see it's like a complete flip, completely flipped. And it's like, how do we make mainstream stars use social media? Because you know why? Because it's so fucking cheap. Yeah.

- It's cheap. - It's free. It's free. - And it's the quickest feedback you could get. - Totally. And I mean, it's awesome if you can utilize it in a good way, but it's also obviously so taxing for your mental health. - I use it for work mostly. I don't use it for private. And that's actually a kind of a conversation that Babes and I have a lot. Like I'm gonna be hosting Scrabble.

And so we talked with the people of the production company and all of the brands there and we're gonna be using the social media to promote and share. Do you know what I mean? And then my wife and I will get in a discussion about how I'm not always, I don't always post beautiful pictures of my wife and say how much I love you on the internet. No, you don't.

But I do go home and say how much I love you and how beautiful you are outside of the car, inside of the car, at home or whatnot. That's also just like, okay, so I, there are different personalities. And obviously you guys know that. But I am the type of personality, if I was in a relationship with somebody who was famous or not famous or whatever, I like those acts of love.

public affirmation. Like I am a romantic person. If I am in love with you, if I'm with you, I want to scream it from the rooftops. And there's a naive element to that because when you are in a public dynamic, sometimes it taints it. Sometimes doing those things that were kind of just like normal to me is

and just acts of love when they are seen by so many like we were kind of saying earlier they they shift because they are open themselves up to be scrutinized and i also understand like it's been important to raven to have the separation and to feel like this is just mine like i've had to give so much of myself in so many different ways for such a long time i want something that's separate something that doesn't have to be shared with others

And I understand that. But that doesn't, it's an interesting thing to navigate because then for me, it's also like, I'll look at certain things online and I can be just that like surfacy of a person at times where I'm like, I'm looking at somebody who write this like beautiful, like Tom Hanks, right? This gorgeous birthday tribute to Rita Wilson. And I'm like, fucking want that too. And then she's the only one

it from you know she's my so it is this like it's very time and you will and sometimes you'll do it just when you do it unexpectedly and that's the only time i want it because i don't want it to ever be like babes i want you to post me and then she put because that feels i don't know don't do that but you'll do it randomly and then it will feel lovely and i have also had to just learn how to

work with that part of myself, but we all do that in a relationship because that's just part of like the negotiation in a relationship. You just have to... I was never like that, you guys, in any of my relationships. No, no, no. None of my relationships I did that. What I'm saying is that you have had experiences in a relationship where you would have to adjust something within yourself to suit what the other person needs. And I'm just saying... And I did that with that because I go back to what I said is I, in all the relationships that I've had in the past, I've

I did not share it. - Yeah, yeah. - Ever. - Like at all. - At all. - Yeah. - Like not even with my parents sometimes. It was always just me and mine because of what she said of, I feel like if I share anything, it gets taken and exploited because I am who I am. Can somebody make money off of it? - Totally. - Like that's why, you know, even when I paint,

Everyone's like, you should show it. You should show it. I'm like, no, it's mine. It's mine. It feels kind of invasive when I do stuff like that. And I think the thing, though, too, is like,

And you'll understand this for sure, but it's like when a camera is up, and I remember Raven and I having this conversation where someone was like, oh, like, welcome to my show. It's a safe space. And Raven's like, there are three cameras up in an audience. This is not a safe space. And that is really true. Like, when there is a camera up, like, even right now, there's a part of my head that's listening to everything I'm saying that's going, careful how you just said. That might be something you have to edit because there's that tape running. And that's just...

We're self-editing constantly. Totally. Even when we're trying to show up as our most authentic selves, because when you put yourself out there like this, you have that knowledge. And so it's like, we know that as a couple, that what we give on our podcast, what we share, it's real, it's authentic, it's us. You're seeing parts of our dynamic, but there is a hell of a lot that is not ever going to be on camera. There are conversations. Trust me, you're not like in my mom's house with us in the kitchen, having

Playing games. You'd love it though. Yeah, you would. You wish you were. You wish you were. The best part. We're just being normal people. Not allowed. No. Yeah. You guys get it. There's so much self-filtering going on. Especially like, I think even after you have one poor experience with the internet, then you're like, oh my God, it's anything. They'll take anything.

anything I said a little off and run with it so then you're like okay try to be perfect try to be perfect I remember I started this podcast I started talking like start like made a new friend and she was like I watched your podcast and then in real life it's so crazy because you're so much I thought you were going to be way more I guess like almost like pc or something like way more like

And she's like new to queerness, so she wanted to ask questions, but she was like nervous to ask me questions because she thought I would be like, you can't really say it like that. I'm like, there is a reality, like there's a wall that I have to put up to make sure that I'm never offending people. But obviously in real life, there's a lot more room for real people don't talk like this. Like people talk much more freely and people make mistakes in real life constantly. Right.

when you're talking constantly and but people in real life give you grace and they're like

oh, maybe don't say it like that, Jo. Just so you know, you know, next time that might get you in trouble. And the people that you're with will probably laugh with you. Yeah. And say the same thing and be like, we can't tell nobody. Totally. That's why I love her because we are a mess. Yeah, we have a lot of fun. Yeah, because we're real, we're real fucking people. I think that's also why we were talking about this recently with my dad. David Letterman, you know. For a second, I thought you were saying your dad is David Letterman. I was like, oh, you should have mentioned that. No, no.

David Letterman, my dad. No, but David Letterman, when a bunch of people came forward saying that he had been inappropriate with them on his show, like so many women have come forward and so many men have then tried to either deny the claims of these women or deny their own behavior or say it was. Or overtly apologize. I'm so sorry. Yeah. You know, and it just becomes this weird thing. One of the things that,

When David Letterman was asked about it, he said, yes, I did have those relationships. And now looking back, I probably shouldn't have. But at that time, I was like in the heyday of my career and very powerful. And I did it. And I think it was very simple and very clean. And it's not a direct quote, but it was simple.

in that vein the energy that he had behind it was more authentic than anyone giving this you know seven minute instagram apology or someone fully denying it he's like no this is my life i'm sure that probably did yeah it's probably exactly what they're saying yeah exactly yeah yeah and i think that that's like when we were just talking about the difference between like real conversation or not real conversation this isn't how people talk there was something about that that even though the subject itself was

you know, so sensitive, so sensitive. The fact that he just owned it and was like, yes, I did this. And yes, it was inappropriate. And moving on, you know, like, obviously work to be done. And you see, even now, it's like, I'm trying to you're scared. I say this because it becomes such a sensitive thing. But my point is, is that just

owning what we've done. Like I've always said, if I mess up, I will be a person to say I messed up. And for whatever reason, I wasn't aware. I will. And I do. And you know that you're the one who doesn't apologize. Incorrect. Okay, whatever. Anyway, I will.

And now you're trying to make me look like I don't and people are going to come for us for that. You just said that I don't and I just said incorrect. We both did it to each other. Okay. Okay. Cool. But I'm just saying that if I mess up, I say I messed up. And if I think I know something, like a lot of times I'm like, oh no, that for sure didn't happen. That for sure didn't happen. Then Raymond will like show me the receipt and I'm like, oh my God, it happened. I'm like, you were wrong. You were right and I was wrong. A Freudian slip. No, no, no. It's not a Freudian slip. Shutting up now. She'll say, you know what? You were.

you were pretty, you were, you know, you weren't right. You weren't not right. I own being wrong because that's what happens. Humans are wrong, but humans, that's, no, human error. People fuck up all the time.

up all the time. They do, but there are different truths though. That's another thing. It's like everyone's truth is different. That's true. That's just what it is. So even though I'm showing you a receipt, doesn't mean that what your body accepted in that moment isn't the truth for you at that moment. Totally. Or how you perceived things. Like we all are just living from our own point of view at all times. 100%. But I am right.

But just to be clear, I am right. Yeah, you're right and I'm wrong. I know. Once again, huge, huge, huge shout out to the sponsor of today's episode, TomboyX. I'm going to go ahead and read a few more of the reviews y'all have left on their products. Starting with...

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Don't say I never did anything for you. Did you guys enjoy this experience? Yeah. Your bed is so comfortable. Oh my God. I feel bad you're moving around. I'm like, I know she only hit her head five times. I know. I'm going to hear it. No, no, no. It's going to be like bonk and bonk. It's okay. We have your stomach and you have my hard head. Oh my God. Perfect. Yeah. Shit. We both have to edit things out.

Okay, well, I would love you guys to come back sometime too so we can get even more into queerness because I feel like we just scratched the surface. There's so much more. And you should come back to us. We're neighbors. I think that maybe the next time we meet each other, we turn off the safe space. Oh my God, can we hang out? And make it a very unsafe space. Let's get crazy. I think it's also worth letting your people know that you are going to be

on our podcast tomorrow. Oh my God. I'll be on their podcast. Well, tomorrow. So it'll be Thursday. Yeah. Meaning like when they're listening to this, when it drops on Wednesday, tomorrow, I'll be on your podcast. Right. But if we're listening to this at another time,

go over to our channel she's already i'm already there and i'll have the links in the bio to their podcast and all their socials and everything they're up to and yeah sorry next time you won't get to see us talk to each other we're gonna have that conversation alone yeah yeah okay follow them on everything thank you guys so much for watching have a good day