Podcast: EV deliveries from Tesla to Fisker, Optimus in stores, FSD value, and more
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We are live, everyone, for a new episode of The Electric Podcast. I am Fred Lambert, your host. And as usual, I'm joined by Seth Wintraub. How are you doing today, Seth? I'm good.

All right, all right, all right. And this episode of The Electric Podcast is sponsored by Pedego. For July only, July only, save up to $500 on Pedego e-bikes, including their newest model, the Avenue. You can go in the show notes right now to click in the link in the show notes to get to their store, to find a store near you and take advantage of that $500 off. You want to have an e-bike this summer. They are so fun. And Pedego is nice enough to sponsor the podcast. And they have great e-bikes, so go check them out.

All right, let's jump into the news this week. It's going to be a lot of just EV deliveries numbers because Q2 is over and everyone has released that, including Tesla. But also we're going to be able to Ford, Rivian, GM, Fiskars and all the EV automakers these days.

But first off, let's do our weekly check into the NACS takeover, we're calling it. And this week, not nearly as much news as last week about NACS with all the charging station companies jumping on board, including Electrify America and Volvo and Polestar and all that. But this morning, we had a nice surprise.

Mercedes-Benz announced the adoption and they're jumping on board as the first German automaker to do so. Last week, we did discuss that Volkswagen was signaling that they were in discussion with Tesla about it. So it looks like they're going to move forward, but no one had pulled the trigger just yet. Mercedes-Benz have pulled the trigger. Again,

Almost copy-pasted announcement from the others, which is starting in 2025, Naxx as standard, plug on their cars. Next year...

available to Mercedes EV owners so they can take advantage of the supercharger network in North America. Mercedes had their own little announcement about the expansion of their own effort to deploy charging stations. So it was already announced that they were building their own network. One of the few automakers to do so. But like I said, it's pretty pale in comparison to what Tesla is doing. They're talking about 25 high-powered chargers, but that's 2,500, but that's

It's about 400 stations in North America. First one are going to come in Q4 this year, so at the end of this year. So in comparison, like Tesla is already over 2,000 sites in North America. So you can see why they want to switch to NACs. And in this case, they're talking about both NACs and CCS chargers of their own charging Mercedes branded charging station. So that...

That's something we're seeing from charging station operator right now. Throughout the transition, they're going to want to have both to support their existing fleet and also just not to signal people not to buy their EVs that have CCS right now. That's kind of obvious. But everything points to a complete takeover from NAX. I would assume that next week we're going to have at least one other automaker to announce that there's going to join on board. Who's next? What's your best guess?

I mean, Volkswagen having signaled that last week, it would make sense. And Mercedes putting the pressure for the German. But I would like to see an Asian one, maybe like some Hyundai or a Nissan or something like that to jump on board. That would be nice. I know Hyundai's got some issues with the 800 volt, 400 volt, 800 volt stuff, but they also make a lot of EVs. Yeah. I mean, but yeah, makes sense.

all right you want we want to jump into the delivery numbers from we're going to start with the biggest one uh and it's going to become i think i think for everyone that is not aware which i think most people are just how much of a lead tesla has in delivery numbers it's become more apparent it's going to become very apparent here when we start discussing the others after tesla so tesla has announced that they had four four hundred sixty six thousand deliveries

in the second quarter of 2023. So it came a bit as a surprise because the consensus was 448,000. So Tesla beat that by almost 20,000 units. And it also beat the previous record of 422,000 units. So they came in very strong. Model S and X gained a lot with 19,000 deliveries.

but obviously Model 3 and Model Y is still the bread and butter at 446,000 units. There's a discrepancy of about 14,000 units in terms of deliveries between deliveries and production from Model 3 and Model Y. We've been seeing a growing inventory for Tesla too. So even though this great performance by Tesla, there is this inventory issue that is building and

Tesla is trying to address it with a little more incentive this week. Tesla had a cash discount on the referral program for the Model 3 Model Y.

So this is something that was already in place for Model S and X at a $1,000 discount and three months of free full self-driving package. Now they are bringing that also to Model 3 Model Y when you buy one through a referral link. And they are doing a $500 discount if you use the link to own both Model 3 Model Y, both new inventory vehicle and new orders, and $650 discount.

in Canada. So, and also on the, on the referral side, they boosted the credits because all you get for referral is, is Tesla credits. And it went from 2000 to 10,000. So that's a big difference. And we're going to see if it's going to have any use. So Seth and I, we've been talking about this before the show about how, how,

Useful the incentive here is how big of an impact it can have because obviously a cash discount on the buyer side is big. It's basically a way to just discount the vehicle without discounting the vehicle officially. You're doing through the referral program. So that literally lowers the cost of buying the vehicle.

But the big thing with the referral program, the usefulness of it has always been the fact that the owners will push for it. They will become salesmen, literally. Now, on this side of things, it becomes easy now to actually convince someone to use your referral code because you're going to get $500 if you use my code. But then do you get this free cell phone? Not free, obviously, but...

owner-based self-force with this 10,000 credits per referral because what do you get out of those credits? I think for the first one, everyone at least wants one because 10,000 credits would be useful. You can get a wall connector for that. So you get a free wall connector which will work a few hundred bucks. So that's nice. But then once you get one of those,

You don't generally don't need to anything like that unless you want to get into like selling them and make a few hundred bucks every time. Maybe you want to get into that trouble. I don't know.

Then you have the free supercharging miles. But those you can get. So you can literally get right now you refer one Tesla Model 3, Model Y. You can get a free wall connector and 2000 miles of free supercharging. That's pretty good. So that's an incentive to do it. But then the free supercharging miles, they last only six months. So if you don't use your 2000 miles in six months, you lose them.

And you still have some less flow over credit at that point. So you can get a few entries into the Cybertruck raffle. But then after that, it's a bunch of lifestyle accessories, I guess. You can get a t-shirt and whatnot. So I don't know how...

how incentivized people are going to be. Like I said, they're going to be incentivized to do one because that one is nice. But after that, you're like, all right, like I've, I've taken part into the referral program and like the credit accumulating the credits is not, doesn't have any value. Like Tesla is actually banking on you losing your credit. So we are very far obviously for the roadster days. Uh, but I feel like they could be like something in between, like, um,

a discount on on upgrading your tesla or maybe even discount or like just buying a car in general like accumulating enough credit to buy a car or something like that that that would make sense to me uh you can just make it like more like a higher level than the roadster what was the roadster do you remember said uh i think you get yourself 50 50 50 cars yeah yeah i think 50 was you get one for free

That was quite high. Also, like 50 was... That's a lot of cars, though. Yeah. I mean, you could do that, but that's for a $250,000 car. You could do that now, 50, for like you can get a new Model 3 or a new Model Y or something like that. That would make a lot more sense for Tesla money-wise. And I think like a free car, everyone like goes crazy for a free car. Like it's good marketing. So...

And get people to go out there. And I don't know. So at least 10,000 credits, I just, I don't know how much. I think everyone's going to want one. But at the same time, when you think about it, if every Tesla owner refers one friend, it's a few million new sales. So it's not that big. Yeah, I was going to say, like, we are not the typical, you know, Tesla people. The people that Tesla wants to go out and sell a vehicle. We have a lot of people in the world that...

we talk to. So we sell, you know, a lot of Teslas when we, you know, use our referral link. I think a typical Tesla owner maybe sells one or two every, you know, six months to their friends or family. Like nobody's going to be selling five unless they have a huge Twitter following or, or whatever. So, you know, the free,

Wall adapter is solid. Wasn't there... There was not anything about foot...

full self-driving right like that's not one of the gifts uh yeah you have upgrades you can upgrade your car i don't know if full self-driving package is in that upgrade i don't i don't have access to to you should see on your phone you should be able to see in the upgrade section because i because you have you still you have one car that doesn't have uh full self-driving no i might have full self-driving

I got rid of the Model 3. That's right. Sold it for Rivian. Yeah, that's right. It says all my upgrades are sold. I bought all my upgrades so I don't have access to it. I don't know if the data is in there, but I would assume if it's... What other upgrades are there? So we got Cybertruck Raffle, Tesla Sipping Glasses, Supercharger Miles,

But you can switch to the upgrade section. But for me, it shows nothing for me. And then accessories. I got the roof rack. That's pretty sweet. Yeah. I mean, if you need some of those, there's some accessories that are available in there. Interior liners, I guess. CCS combo adapter. All right. Well, a lot of these things, like Tesla owners will already have them if they really need them. Right.

So most of it, some people would be more interested in things that bring actual value to their car or upgrading your car. The big ones are supercharger miles. The supercharger miles, I think, would be a great incentive to have in there if you just either remove the expiration date on it or increase it a lot more. Because I think Tesla's goal is just for you to...

to let them expire because 2,000 miles in six months. I know plenty of people do use that, but for a lot of people, it's not that often that you use a supercharger network. You use it if you go on a road trip or something. Yeah, they don't have the acceleration boost, which you would think they would put in there. Yeah, all the upgrades should be able to be unlocked through that. And then also, there's no wheels. That would be another thing, like winter tires.

Yeah, you see, the things that are useful, like, if you need them, it's not on there. Right. So I think there could be a lot more like this that could do with that in terms to incentivize the people to go out there and generate referrals. I understand your point about, like, they're just wanting for, like, the average owner instead of the influencers. Right. But I know personally a bunch of non-influencers that also, like, increase their efforts to get referrals online.

when the incentive were there. Because you have to remember, obviously, I think most of the people that got roadsters for free, that Tesla told that they have roadster for free, no one has gotten anything yet, are influencers. But there was also discounts on the roadster.

You'd get every referral that he'd get, you'd get $1,000 off the roadster or something like that. Yeah, everything was 5% off maybe? Yeah, a few percent off, yeah. So way more than $1,000. Right. And a lot of people have gotten a few of those. Oh no, I remember you needed to unlock the supercharger discount. You needed to reach a certain number of...

of like the secret referrals that the secret awards that they were talking about remember so you needed to reach a certain number before that but it wasn't that high i think it was like five or ten or something like that which like if you go out there if you go to the gave test drive to people and in the uh drive electric week and things like that like that just that alone anyone could get a few from that

So the incentive could be a little better, I think. What are you sitting on free supercharger miles-wise right now? They all got expired for me. Really? Yeah, in May. Oh, mine are still there until November 24th.

I have a quarter million, 262,000 miles. Yeah, I'm not sure how that worked. I think maybe like your last referral of that program was like later than mine or something like that. Oh, interesting. I don't know how that worked, but mine, a million miles expired in May. So what I was thinking is what if somebody added me to their account? Like could they just use my free miles? Oh, well, they would need to put their car on your account. Yeah.

I mean, that's not hard to do these days, though. No. I mean, you could just invite somebody like Turo. Yeah. Well, no, you can invite them to drive your car. That's not the same. You can have the driver to your car, like have their Tesla account, but you would need to put your car, their car on your Tesla account. Right. Yeah. Hmm.

I should get that Brandon Flash guy who just drives around EVs all over the country. I should get him to add me and just see if those free miles work for him. Yeah, you should start...

you just buy a bunch of Tesla and put them on, uh, on what was it called? It's like Turo and like make it free, super charge, free mileage with supercharger on there. Like that's, uh, there's money to be made in there. I was thinking about keeping my model three for that. Yeah. I, uh, I don't know. I mean, I, I didn't get much for it. I got 24, $25,000 for it, which, you know, it was a 2018, not great shape because of the, uh, paint job sucked. Uh,

Rear wheel drive, long range though. So I don't know. We're going to talk about that a little bit later on because I also got my model 3 estimated and I wasn't happy about that either. We're going to get into that. Other things that Tesla is doing right now to boost sales too is that

It sounds weird, but it's actually something that's going to help sales. It changed the standard color for the Model 3 and Model Y. So for years and years and years, it was white since 2019. So that's four years of white Tesla. So you can go to any big cities in North America and Europe now, really, and you would see

Within five minutes, you can see like 10 white Teslas around because it's a standard color. Everything else would cost at least $1,000 or more. Before that, it was black. Tesla switched it from... It was black for two years and then Tesla switched it to white. And now after four years, they just switched it to midnight silver, aka gray. Yeah, that's good.

Yeah, they went right between white and black. Like a nice mixture of white and black, but they call it midnight silver. So now it is the standard one. White starts costing $1,000. And then if you get the red or the blue, it's $1,500. I'm in full agreement with Jeff Lee, our top commenter on that, saying maybe time for new colors. It's long been time for new colors. But Tesla liked that streamline. Easy to do. Not too many options. They love that.

But at least it's going to be a change. You're going to see a lot more gray Teslas around now instead of white. And it's going to boost sales because if you were looking, you didn't want the white, you wanted – I mean, obviously, specifically, you wanted the gray or you just didn't want white. The car is $1,000 cheaper now, so something to consider. So, yeah, even though – I don't think I mentioned it when we talked about the Tesla sales, but –

Even though it was a record sales, we have sources that says in North America, Tesla didn't hit its goal for deliveries. Like China helped a lot. And there was a bunch of markets in Europe that hit markets in APAC, like Australia had a good quarter.

But they didn't hit their number in North America. And they've been putting a lot of pressure on the North American sales team to do so. By they, I mean it's Tom Zuda, the new head of automotive at Tesla. I don't know what his official title is right now, but unofficially he's basically the number one guy for automotive at Tesla in terms of sales and manufacturing, really, because he's leading the gigafactory projects in Mexico and Texas. But...

EE is also driving sales since January of this year. And EE was in charge of sales in China too before that. And in terms of retail performance, China is the gold standard for Tesla. That's where they have the best retail performance. And now they want to replicate that in the U.S. and they're just trying to see what will do it. And one thing that they've been experimenting with in China, which is going to be surprising, is optometrism.

They've been putting Optimus in some stores and it's been increasing for traffic and customer engagement.

And Tesla realized that by, and they just posted it actually for this conference where they brought Optimus with their cars and the Optimus was getting more attentions in the car, even though it's not even a working prototype. I'm not talking about working prototype too, just to be sure. I had the, what's the more on the, Gordon, Gordon, what the guy that's been like,

doomsday tesla for for forever the supposedly a wall street or something yeah gordon johnson i think it's his name um he was he was freaking out when i posted this article he like had a tweet storm about how i should be like the acc should go after me because i'm reporting some them that they're

about a product that it's not real. It's like, it's not, I'm not talking about, we're not talking about robots, like helping customers in stores here. I'm talking about display unit, bringing customers and start completely different. Anyway, but it works. It does work. People, people are more like the same thing happened with a cyber truck and Tesla didn't even have the cyber truck in store, but the cyber truck and the, the, all the media around it and everything, uh,

And people like reserving it brought people to Tesla stores and helped with traffic and helped with buying other cars. That's how it works. And now Tesla is experimenting in China with the Optimus to do the same. And they want to replicate that in North America. So check out soon in your local Tesla store. You might see an Optimus in display. But apparently, again, only displays unit. They won't be working. If something's not working, it might be the arms. They might put like working arm prototypes in there.

So you may be able to shake their hands or something like that. I'm just guessing at this point. All right. Full self-driving. So I just hinted to that earlier, but I was hearing a lot about Tesla not valuing full self-driving package options.

very high on its own trade-ins. So when you trade in a car with Tesla, having full self-driving in it wouldn't change much of anything, which was very frustrating to owners. And now they added this mention recently where in the trade-in estimate, they say it includes the value of full self-driving. So they have to mention it for people so that people stop arguing about it.

I asked the girl that did the estimate. I texted with her and I asked, why is it in there? And it's like, oh, it was just so that people know it's in there. It's just so that people stop arguing. It's like, no, no, we are valuing this. But it's not very complicated. You just have to break it down. So this is $41,200 is what they are offering me for my Model 3 in Canadian dollars in Canada.

Now, you have to keep in mind that FSD in Canada is $19,500. So you have to include that or at least like a discounted, like used version of that, even though I haven't really used it because Tesla hasn't delivered it. But yeah,

And that $41,000, almost half of the value of it here. And that $41,000 with my Model 2 performance, which is still in very good shape, by the way, but it has 47,000 kilometers on it, which is not even that much for 2018. Yeah.

If you configure it new right now, Model 3 Performance, which doesn't get that much more than my version, like the Model 3 hasn't changed that much since 2018, it's $73,000 Canadian. And then if you have the same options as mine with the FSD2, it's $96,000 brand new. So Tesla is extremely developing the car, but also FSD itself, which obviously I paid less than $19,400. What did you pay? Do you remember? I want to say it was like...

$4,000 more than an Enhanced Autopilot. So I paid for the Enhanced Autopilot too. So the two together, maybe like $6,000. Something like that. Do you think they're giving you $6,000? Do you know what a... Not $6,000 because...

So looking at, I had a few, when I initiated this article, I had a few people that have not the exact same car, with the same mileage and everything, but a multi-performance 2018 with within 20% of the same kilometers on the odometer. And they would get a value of pretty close to mine without FSD. This car didn't have FSD. They will get between five and,

I think there was one that was like only $3,000 less and it had more kilometers than me. So that would value FSD at less than $3,000. But for the most part, it looks like there's no way to evaluate more than $10,000 for sure, which would be more than I paid for, but a lot less than the $19,000.

And so there's two school of thoughts here, and especially you can look into the comments section of that article, by the way, you get a lot of people debating this issue. But the idea is like, okay, but you do devalue the FSD2 policy.

after the fact that you bought it even though elon claim i'm putting aside the claim of the appreciating asset here like we're that's going to be for lawyers to discuss in court at some point with people i'm sure because he didn't make that claim some people so these people are going to make the argument against it anyway it is that tesla

is just fairly valuing what the market is willing to pay right now for this car, which is completely fair. However, the thing that hurts me is that Tesla sold me that package with a certain promise behind it, is that this car is going to be full self-driving at some point and never delivered on that and still values it at $19,000, but only when it sells it to you, not when they buy it back from you.

So that's where the thing is. So you're literally selling a product that you're not delivering and you're willing to buy back that product for less than they bought it from, even though you never delivered that product. There's no other way to say that it's not cool. I understand that it's not completely...

like the the Tesla is just operating has uh any automaker would with trade-ins or any dealership would really uh so Tesla basically is its own dealership so that makes sense but you have to also take into account the fact that Tesla is selling a product that doesn't deliver that's just I just I cannot get around that really

One thing that doesn't fix this, like Tesla should just fix this and should value more their FSD beta on trade-ins. There's just no, there's no way around that. But one thing that would remove a lot of the complaining out of it, if you could just let us transfer FSD to a new car. Yeah. Especially at such a high, like expensive rate. I mean, honestly, like the idea of trading in my Model Y right now,

and not ever seeing full self-driving, even though I paid for it, it's painful. I think I'm going to keep that car forever because I just want to see full self-driving hit it at some point. Yeah. And then the same, my Model 3 right now, I would be perfect. I wouldn't want to upgrade it to a Model Y or a Model S. I would be perfectly willing to do that. The only thing is I'm not going to buy...

fsd right now for 19 000 there's no way i'm going to do that on the new car but at the same time uh prop full self-driving probably is never going to work on hardware three i like yeah i i have my hopefully like there's a lawsuit that comes out that we get money back or like uh maybe uh an upgrade to hardware four or something i don't know what like there's no retrofit that's gonna happen that's for sure but right yeah i mean uh

I've been saying for years that Tesla should just offer refunds right away for people that want to buy. But I'm not even asking for a refund. That's not even what I'm asking for because I would get a few thousand dollars back and Tesla would regret. Actually, right now, now that I think of it, if Tesla would give me back my $4,000 and just put me on the enhanced autopilot, yeah.

Package, I would be fine with that because I use Enhanced Auto Part more than I use FSD by far. But anyway. What about the choice? Hold on. What about the choice of getting your money back or being able to take full self-driving with you?

I would take full self-driving with me, especially if I can get a new car that has hardware 4. That would make a ton of sense. And that would drive sales like crazy for Tesla too. Like a lot of owners, a lot of older owners would upgrade at no cost to them really. It costs them the insane gross profit that they would make off of

off of that car from people not buying it, but you still make your regular non-FSD gross profit out of it because Tesla has positive gross margin on these cars.

And it's not because of FSD. A very small percentage of people is buying FSD right now. I think last time we saw some figures, it was like less than 15% or something like that. So it's not what's driving Tesla sales right now. I can't imagine anybody spending that much for what is essentially a broken product. Yeah. I mean, it should work at some point in the future, but...

That's a lot of money for a risk. Almost $20,000 in Canada is crazy. It's a brand new car. So yeah, but if you allow, and also it makes, just for like goodwill, it makes so much sense because you've been, I bought this package recently

You told me that I was going to get a car that's full self-driving by then with that package. You didn't deliver that. I'm telling you, I'm willing to buy another. Despite all that, I'm willing to buy another of your products. I just want you to the lie that you told me or maybe not the lie, but the grossly misleading timeline that you gave me about it.

I just want you to transfer that to my new car that I'm buying and I'm giving you money for it. It sounds like so reasonable of a deal. Yeah, it makes no sense. That would make so many Tesla owners happy. And especially a lot of people that have become like delusional. No, not delusional, but disillusioned about Tesla. Yeah, a lot of...

You see that a lot about Tesla fans that have been fans for years and never owned a car. And then they own the car and they start getting some problems with Tesla and everything. They start being like, it's a normal company that gets their normal company problems and all that. Like us. Yeah, like us. And that would...

But a lot of people like us are still a giant fan of Tesla because of what they've done for electric vehicles and because they still do extremely great products. And we're going to get into that in a second, Stu, when we compare the sales number to these other automakers. You do that and it's such... It would go a long way. You would kill a lot of complaints and you would boost sales like crazy. All right. While we're still on the FSD topic, Elon...

Still decided to make some comments about FSD this week. And we decided to post about it because even though the timeline is the same, he claims that full autonomy is achievable by the end of the year, Tesla. The wording, we've been dissecting the wording every time because the wording is very important.

And there's a few new wording here that I think are worth diving into a little bit. But we're going to go briefly because the subject is getting annoying at times. He said, in terms of where Tesla is at this stage, I think we're very close to achieving full self-driving without human supervision. So this is another example. So when he says full autonomy...

It's full self-driving without human supervision. This is only speculation. Of course, it always has these little specifications. But I think we'll achieve full self-driving maybe what you would call four or five, I think, later this year. So this is a little bit more precise because when you literally had a term like full in front of a self-driving like Tesla and sell that as a package, you...

You murky things, you make things a little more blurry, like you blurry the lines. Like why do you need to put full in front of self-driving? The car is self-driving or it's not like it's not. Anyway, but one thing that is useful for that, even though it's not the perfect way to categorize self-driving system is the SAE chart of levels of self-driving that has been most adopted in the industry. And now you mentioned four or five, right?

Previously, especially when this was first adopted, Elon has talked about five. There's him on record saying that promising buyers who buy a car with FSD right now that they will get level five. I think now anyone other than the more hardcore Tesla fans would agree that five is completely unachievable because what five is, is full self-driving without supervision under any condition.

All you need is to drive a car in the Northeast, a Tesla vehicle in the Northeast on autopilot in the winter to know that that's not going to be achievable because there's a little snow, a little slush around and you get an alert on your cameras being covered and autopilot not being able to activate or perform well. So that happens all the time. So until Tesla has a solution for that, um,

And that obviously not going to be a software solution for that. It's going to have to be a hardware solution. And there is rumor that this is going to be the case, like with the hardware for a cyber truck. They seem to have things to blow on the cameras and all that. So there's solutions for that all there, but they are a hardware solution. They're not on the existing vehicles that, again, were promised FSD.

Level four is maybe achievable, though I think level three is much more realistic for Tesla, even though Elon seems to be completely uninterested in level three. Level four is full self-driving under no need for human supervision.

And almost any condition, just not any condition. So there is limitation. You can like geofence. Like level four is what Waymo and Cruise are achieving with their geofencing. So they are limiting an area where, okay, in that you should be able to handle any condition, but within those parameters that the taxi service operates at. So this is obviously a lot of value, but that's not what...

um elon has been promising but in this case he says four or five and the fact that he just said that like four or five casually like that lets me think that he doesn't even know the difference much right uh which is upsetting obviously as someone who's been promising level five for years uh not to now seems to care to point out more exactly if it's going to be four or five three is the same but

The car can request human supervision with an understandable delay of switchover between human driver and the system.

But all three, level three, four, or five, they differentiate from zero to two by the system taking responsibility over the driver. So there's no human supervision needed in some operation. Again, level three and four, there's limitation. And level three being you can even request the driver to take over over a reasonable period of time.

Which sounds a lot more like what FSD is right now, just without actual responsibility Tesla is taking and with a need for supervision. Because you can see often like you're driving with FSD and the car without any easy to detect for human like obstacles and that they will say, hey, we need to take over right now. Okay. But that's not what he's talking about, obviously. Yeah.

So I don't know. Obviously, I've been saying that for a while now, but I don't see a jump from the current FSD beta to a level 4 or level 5 at this point. We've been talking about Dojo recently. That's one of my rare hopes with FSD is that maybe this is going to accelerate it. But even then, later this year, we're already more than halfway throughout the year. So we're talking about a few months at this point, like

I don't know why I keep saying it. It's delusional, right? Yeah, I mean, it's like a meme at this point. It's like that Simpsons meme where they're like, say it again. And even if you go into the crazy Tesla fan subreddits and on Twitter, there are some people that are still...

uh, you know, like, Oh, it's going to happen. But most of them are like, why doesn't somebody just tell them to not say that anymore? Like, this is embarrassing me. Like, you know, I have to go out with my, you know, Tesla attire and stick up for Elon. And this is getting really difficult because like, you know, the, the, uh, reality distortion field just doesn't work that well. So I don't know. Like, I don't get it. It seems like,

he's just pushing the reality distortion way too far. Yeah. Because on the investor day, he had a good point to me to explain why he kept getting this wrong where they keep eating a local maximum in the development and you don't know that you're in the local maximum until you

you know, and that, but at that point you should say, okay, I don't know when it's going to happen. Cause you might like, so why are you thinking now that you're not in one? Like you haven't in one. So, and the pace of improvement that we are seeing, if you're being completely honest with it, doesn't indicate anything soon. Right. So,

Obviously, he knows more about this than me, knows more about this than probably anyone that's outside of Tesla's self-driving team.

So maybe he knows something that is going to drastically increase the pace of improvement soon. Again, Dojo might be one of them, but that's like... But he's already lied for 10 years in a row. Maybe not lied. Maybe he's optimistic. Over-optimistic, yeah. But he's done it 10 years in a row. It's not going to change this year.

Like it'll change one year that, I mean, that there's always going to be a time in the future where that's going to be true, but it's not from like, we know what our cars can do right now. And it's just not realistic. All right. Before we jump into our other stories today, we're going to have a quick word about our sponsor e-bike makers, Pedego. All right. This week's episode is sponsored by Pedego electric bikes, America's number one electric bike retailer. Yeah.

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All right. We're going to jump into a bunch of stories about the delivery numbers for the second quarters for Boccia Motormakers. And then we're going to take your comments and your questions. So if you have any comments or questions, you can put it in the comments section right now on YouTube, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, wherever you're listening. And we're going to get to them in just a few minutes. All right. The first one we're going to get into... Well, before that story, we want to discuss really quick this... I don't know how... It's a weird one. So...

A bunch of automakers in China have made a pledge to...

uphold standards in the industry. And it's a bunch of different... There's four main points that they discussed, and those automakers include Tesla, Dongfang, CIAC, BIAC, GAC, Geely, BYD, NIO, Xpeng, all the automakers that produce vehicles out of China, really. And they...

they made a pledge to abide by all the rules and regulations of the industry. I hope that should have already been the case, that they will pay attention to the marketing methods, not to exaggerate or condole false marketing. So that has been a problem with electric vehicles at times. So, um,

Probably a good point to add. Third, we put quality first. Use quality-oriented, high-quality product and service to meet people's needs. I mean, that should be just your goal as a company all the time. Fourth, we'll actively fulfill our social responsibility and take extra roles in helping stabilize economic growth. I guess the ESG stuff, whatever. ESG. But part of it was also...

the pledging to, how they phrase it, to not further, to not complicate the price war that's already happening in China that reduced the prices of electric vehicles, which they say was kind of an unofficial one. It was kind of the goal of this pledge, really. It was like the unofficial goal. Those were the four main points. The unofficial goal was to, hey, let's stop this price war.

which, I mean, in the US, they would call that a cartel, really, like a price cartel. And it's illegal in most places to do that. So obviously in China, things are a bit different. But I thought that was an interesting little development for the Chinese EV market.

All right, we're going to start with GM for the deliveries numbers. And GM, Bolt obviously is still the biggest driver. They had 15,652 EVs delivery total, and the Bolt EV and EUV accounted for almost 14,000 of those, so the vast majority of them.

And the rest was the Lyric with about 800, if I remember correctly. We should have posted a chart. I meant to tell Scooter and Peter about that. All these articles should have a nice chart instead. Yeah, about 968 deliveries for the Lyric. And the OMRA AV is on a tear right now. It went from two in the first quarter to 47 in the second quarter. So that's a massive increase.

But again, we're talking about GM all-in-two electric vehicles, and they have fewer than 16,000 EV deliveries in Q2 compared to 466,000 for Tesla. So, yeah, it's still very in its infancy. Obviously, the old Siam is also just starting up, but...

We need to see a big ramp up. GM is just not ramping. They like, they did, they did a little bit of a ramp with the bolts, but you know, if you don't, Mary Barra keeps saying that she's going to catch Tesla in terms of numbers and they just are not making any kind of volume. I mean, I know the Lyric and the Hummer are both like high, high cost, low volume things, but,

But they're just not able to ramp. And recently they announced... So the Silverado EV is late. It still hasn't launched. It was supposed to launch in the spring. The Blazer SS is no longer a thing until next year. They changed the summer launch to just regular Blazers, which is probably a good thing, lower prices. But overall, it's just really disappointing to see GM...

you know, over and over and over again, just keep missing deadlines, keep slipping. And then they're doing things like, um, they, uh, are petitioning the, uh, uh, environmental, uh, I can't remember the name, but they're petitioning the U S, uh,

The EPA? Yeah, the EPA to lower the requirements of 50% EVs by 2030, which seems like a really low barrier. Like, you know, GM is all in on EVs. Well, come on, guys. Like, seriously, you really need to get your act together. Like, it's really hard to just toe this line.

yeah i guess i mean i would i would think that in 2030 gm could be in a good position too with their ev business but you have to look at the short term here and with the bolt going away at the end of the year and the bolt representing the vast majority of their ev cells right now the launch of all these new cars that the silverado and the equinox and the blazer it needs to the ramp up needs to happen fast

to have any kind of significant EV output from GM. Otherwise, with the Bolt EV going away, they're screwed. That's kind of why probably they are petitioning to lower these standards because without the Bolt EV, they might have a tough time for a while until they ramp up all those programs.

Yeah, it's also frustrating because they're doing well on their internal combustion sales. And, you know, inside they're going put all the money on the, you know, the easy thing for us to do. And that's going to disappear really quickly. And, you know, every electric vehicle sale that Tesla makes, you know, Tesla is almost doubling every year. So they're just chomping up market share from GM and Ford and,

And every delay that GM does is just like, that's a smaller company in 2030. That's going to be a smaller company. Like every single. So, you know, like in the short run, like they'll have some increases. But in the long run, GM is becoming, you know, a non a non factor. Mm hmm.

Rivian, Rivian, better news on this side of things with the company went from producing just 9000 vehicles last quarter to almost 14000, just eight short of 14000 out of normal in Illinois in Q2. So that's a massive 48% increase quarter to quarter.

So good on them there. And also they were able to deliver a lot of those. So that's been a problem with Rivian. Just like Tesla, they need to deliver most of the cars that they produce. Otherwise, they find themselves having paid for the car that they produce and not being able to declare any revenue from that, which makes them look financially really bad on those quarterly results. But this time they delivered 12,640 of those 14,000 vehicles delivered. So good on there too.

And they still believe to be on track for 50,000 units in 2023. And so what do we need? What do they need for the second half? So 9,000. So they just they are over just over 21,000 right now. Yeah. It's still a tough task for the second half of the year, but doable.

Yeah, and I think a lot of the stock is obviously going up. It's been up, I think, a whole week in a row straight. I think they are starting to eliminate some of the bottlenecks in their supply chain. It sounds like they're getting some real production numbers happening. Anecdotally, I got mine a little bit early, my R1S a couple weeks ago. I see a lot of other people getting deliveries online.

There's always been tons of Rivians sitting at the shop there. I'm always like, where are all the customers for these? Why don't you get these on the road? People are waiting like crazy. They also had to hire up a bunch of delivery people. My delivery person came over from Tesla. The whole supply chain from sourcing batteries all the way to

the delivery guys like they needed to really kind of up up there and and continue to up their uh head count i feel like they're like at a place right now where they're going to hit their yearly target and probably go beyond it a little bit and then you know the sky's the limit from there the only thing to playing devil's advocate here uh i think since

They have the Enduro and the cheaper model coming, but it's still all high-end stuff still. It's still expensive vehicles that they have. The problem with Rivian is I think they're going to need these interest rates to go down a bit because I think the market right now for these high-end vehicles is getting smaller and smaller just because it's hard to get a loan that makes sense for it.

So I, they, they've been, they've been banking on their 70 plus thousand reservation backlog, but it's been more difficult to get these people to, to pull the trigger because completely different macroeconomics since when they place those reservation. Yeah. You, you mentioned the Enduro, um, that they also have the R2s coming out next year. Um,

which everybody said they're going to be much less expensive. They're going to also have LFP battery pack, which will make things a little bit cheaper. Although I don't know if you're going to get the kind of range that you really like. You mentioned the Enduro before. I think they could sell the Enduros for the same price as their four motor stuff because they get much better range. I think people would trade the range for, I don't even know what tricks the...

all you know four four motor vehicles do like they take they took away the tank turn and you know there's like rally mode and drift mode and stuff like that but i feel like you could do that with just two motors so uh i think i think it's getting better for rivian options going forward although i agree with you 100 they need to get those prices down

Yeah. So those things coming next year are going to help the LFP, the R2 and all that. But I think like some things, if they do reach the 20,000 units, like if they can produce in Q4 20,000 units, for example, I think they're going to have a tough time selling 20,000 units of R1S and R1T in the quarter in these current conditions. I disagree on the R1S. I think there's enough demand there, especially if Kia doesn't come out with their EV9 and...

The Volvo EX90 is also not out. But I agree, the R1T is already kind of saturated.

All right, moving on to Ford. So Ford has been, out of the legacy automakers, has been one of their approach I prefer the most to electric vehicles. But the numbers have still not been there. And this one was kind of a disappointing numbers for their EV sales in Q2. So it fell 2.8%.

F-150 Lightning cells reach 4,466 units in the second quarter, which a lot of people like

because it's up over 100% from last year. But last year, they started production in that quarter. So it's not a big deal really to be up. Of course, earlier this year, they did stop production too. So that kind of affected the ramp up. But now they say that they're back to full capacity and they say that June was the biggest month for the F-150 Lightning. So at least some silver lining for going into the second half of the year.

But 4,466 F-150 Lightning, like a year into production, it's not that impressive to me. Like I would have liked to see the Lightning in at least the higher five figures at this point. Yeah, I mean, and this is the last quarter that, maybe the last couple of quarters where

Ford is not competing with Silverado. Exactly. Good point. Yeah. They're not competing with the Silverado has 450 mile range. You know, it's a lot more than Ford. And then obviously the Cybertruck is coming as well. So like this is their opportunity right now. They, you know, the full size market is theirs and that's pretty weak. Yeah. And then the other big program, EV program from Ford, the Mustang Mach-E, this one is down 21% year over year.

So that's also disappointing. But they say that the VP of sales distribution said that they saw an improved inventory flow at the end of Q2. So again, they seem to be hopeful for the second half of the year. You see June was the biggest month for the MAIC-E2, but June is just a big month for car sales in general. Yeah.

I would say one thing Ford needs to do is get their dealers in order. They've been gouging the heck out of the customers and they have no idea if they're getting a good deal or not. And for me, that's like the biggest pain point. Yeah. Because right now, it just doesn't look like a great EV business that they have. Obviously, it's going to go up from there. But in 2023, I thought Ford would be a little bit in a better position at this point. Yep.

So we've been going like good news, bad news, good news, bad news. But back to good news, it's Polestar. Polestar has had a very strong Q2 with over 15,000 deliveries, up significantly from last quarter. They had 12,000 deliveries, which already was a great quarter for them. So now they look good for the second half of the year for their goal to have between 16,000 and 70,000 vehicles delivered.

First half of the year total of just short of 28,000 units. And of course, that's just with the Polestar 2 and the Polestar 3 deliveries are starting second quarter. Next year? Yeah, next year. I thought it was this year. No, they were delayed as well. They're on the same platform as the X90. Oh, that's right. That's right. That's right.

So yeah, they're selling a lot of Polestar 2s. Yeah, it's just with the Polestar 2 right now. It's pretty impressive just for that vehicle program. Though it did get a lot cheaper recently too. So that helps. Rear wheel drive only. They're supposed to give me one to test long term soon. I haven't had news on that. I know that they were in Quebec. They were on like a test drive tour. Yeah.

Finally, Fisker, they fell short of their delivery goal with just, well, I don't know if they even released delivery numbers, or at least we didn't have them here, but the production number was 1,022 units in Q2, which was short of their goal of between 1,400 and 1,700, so...

They say they know supply chain issues for that, but they expect to work through them through the second half and ramp up production to... What's the delivery goal or production goal for the year? Expect to produce 14,000 in early July. What was that? That's not a goal, early July. Anyway, we're not expecting any significant volume from Fisker anyway. Right, and they're being made at Magna as well. Yeah. Yeah.

All right. Lastly, before we jump into your comments, we're going to have a quick wrap up recap. Last week when we did the podcast, Seth was doing it live from Kansas at the Electric Formula Sun Grand Prix, but they were still ongoing. And the biggest days were actually on the weekends. So what happened since then, Seth? Can you catch us up? Yeah. Aaron and Steven were there from our team. We made a nice little video there. The, the, the,

There's two teams that won, obviously. The Florida team won in the single occupant vehicle category. And I don't know if you've heard of this place. Montreal won the... Polytechnique. Yeah, won the multi...

Multi-person occupancy, yeah. So it was a great race. Love to see college students all coming together. For instance, one of the cars had been broken down for a day and the students got the car running again. The whole place erupted in applause. It was really good to see the camaraderie.

And the competition. It was just a really fun time, like seeing all these people geeking out on solar, on propulsion, batteries, etc.

a lot of luck check readers there. Um, we, we met a lot of, uh, fans. It was just a really good time. Uh, you know, Topeka is probably not on a lot of people's radar, but, uh, if you are in the area, it's, it's certainly a fun to go to. We'll be there again next year. Hopefully, uh, we haven't, you know, worked out any deals yet, but, uh, what I would like to do is like kind of, you know,

So they have Tesla there. Tesla's a sponsor and Blue Origin's a sponsor. And they're both just recruiting there. And one of the recruiters was telling me, going to a place like this is like shooting fish in a bucket. It is just so easy to find really talented people, really hardworking, smart engineers. So I'm like, well, that's obvious. Tesla's, he kind of started from this, JB Straubel and

you know the first members of tesla's team came out of stanford solar car program so like why aren't more people going to this thing you know spending a couple thousand bucks setting up a a booth and hiring these super talented kids so uh we're gonna try to give them some help and and try to get more people to uh make it a bigger event for you know corporate sponsorships and stuff

So, yeah, that's what we're going to try to do next year. And it's a ton of fun. So hopefully you can make Topeka next year. They have the Grand Prix in Topeka, and that's kind of the qualifying event for the larger event, which is like a, you know, 600 mile like riding through the West. I think they're going to do national parks. So it's going to be two events next year. OK, nice. Lots of fun.

Looks like it. All right. Jumping to the comment section. Questions. All right. Nick Cedar question. Will somebody be making a NAX to DCFC extension cord for non-Teslas? What would throttle the charge rate to 50K for a bolt, the Tesla side, or the car charger? Would the cord then not need cooling? Well, it's a lot of amps coming through the superchargers, so you're going to need a pretty thick wire anyway.

um even at uh 50 kilowatts um so it's not going to be like a uh extension cord you'd find at like home depot or whatever um it's going to be going to have to be dedicated but it maybe maybe it makes sense maybe tesla's adapters that they make for ford uh are actually like you know four feet long so that they can actually plug into the supercharger and and ford's uh

F-150 Lightning, which I think they had a hard time connecting up than the YouTube videos I've seen. Yeah, that's been a suspicion of people for like, since the adapter is going to be short-lived anyway for at least production overall, since once you cover the market and everyone has switched to NAX, it's not a useful product anymore. It wouldn't make sense to have it work for the existing vehicles that don't have the plug at their right place. Right.

I don't quite understand this. I bought a Tesla to J one seven, seven, two plug 80 amp adapter with lock for under $80 today. I think that,

ADM adapters. You have one of those? Yeah, I think I have one of those, yeah. All right. Yeah, I think it's the same adapter as the 40 amp one. I mean, it's not rocket science. It's just a piece of metal and a piece of plastic. All right. Tesla should just post a standard OEM NAX agreement online. I'm guessing Elon told the lawyers to negotiate no concessions.

I was told that from a carmaker that there's a standard 10 page agreement that Tesla sent to all the OEMs. So maybe they'll post it. They'll probably post it on Twitter. So we'll keep an eye out for that.

Moving on. I just sent Tesla a proposal yesterday to help them with hydrogen refueling stations that are awesome. All right. We're going to skip this one. I get some of those like every day where people think that I can help them send a proposal to Tesla and everything. First of all, I can. So second of all, they don't care about it. Have you ever heard anything Tesla said about hydrogen for years? Yeah.

All right. Richard Cool says, six-month free Twitter Blue account with purchase of Model 3 or Model Y. Yeah. It's worth $40. Yeah. I like the Quicksilver Tesla color you can get in Europe. Yes, that is like a multi-layer paint job. Yeah, night and day, it's different. What do they call it? Dark silver? No, I think it's Quicksilver. No, but what do they call the new default color?

Midnight Silver. Midnight Silver, yeah. Yeah, they're different. They're way different. All right, Carl in San Diego. It's kind of pathetic that car companies upcharge $1,000 to $1,500 for color paint. In essence, that makes their base prices BS. We experienced this with BMW i42, but upcharges $650 to $3,600. So it's the same paint that you get from the white one or the black one. So what you pay for is for Tesla having to switch things up into...

make those colors. That's what you're paying for. It's not that the actual pain doesn't cost more to do, but it is more cost efficient for Tesla to produce just another, the standard color because they produce more of it. It's that simple. So I'm not, I'm not upset about that. What I would like is just more choices. Like even if you charge more for like the, the, the rarer colors or the one that are less used and make, it makes sense.

but offer more options. Yeah, I would like to say green, maybe an orange, yellow, brown. Anyway, Tesla will have to hire security to ensure their stupid robots aren't stolen from showrooms, sorry, galleries.

So it's display units. Like they can, I was going to say, who's going to want to have that obvious session and say that, because there's always someone that's going to want to have one of those, but it's not, it's not like stealing like a million dollar prototype from Tesla is their dummies. Like you're literally stealing a dummy. So, so I don't think, I don't think that's going to be an issue. Also it's sitting right next to a hundred thousand dollar car. So yeah. Yeah.

Maybe it's going to be an issue if you're in the San Francisco store or something like that. Right. Question, what do you think of the California Nikola grant? I think California loves to spend money on dumb things. Yeah. And they haven't got their lesson yet because how many times have they built hydrogen stations in California that they just go unused all the time?

At least for Nikola, I see a little bit more purpose because it's for their own fleet of commercial trucks that technically would use it more. But, I mean, Nikola, you want to go and set sent me that. I responded like, where is Mitt Romney when you need him? And something that the government is picking the loser when they famously said that about Tesla wrongfully, obviously. But in this case, it would make sense. Yeah.

Rich here, there's a problem with Tesla devaluing used FSD software. It doesn't suffer from wear and tear. And more to the point, your car is running current software anyway. Yeah, that's part of the point for sure. But also I would add to that software that they... Like you're not buying FSD for the software it is right now. You're buying FSD with the hope that Tesla deliver on what it's promised it's going to be. And once they don't deliver that, it feels...

to sell it back to Tesla for less than you paid for because they didn't give it to you. It's so simple, but the Tesla fans, that's where I'll lose Tesla fans

I lose respect for the ultra fan of Tesla. When they defend things like that, it's like you're in a cult when you're defending things like that because this is obviously wrong thing to do. It's purely like capitalism, like just getting as much money as possible without care for what's right. All right, here's a possible solution. Perhaps it's best if FSD was just a monthly service that travels with the driver. Decouple it from the fiscal car.

Going forward, yeah. But too late. You already sold it to a bunch of people with a certain promise of it. So it's too late for those. Unless you re-emborse everyone. Which they should do. Yeah, but...

For now, it's not... I would think, give them the opportunity to upgrade with FSD before reimbursing them. You're going to save money there. I think it's only a matter of time before that happens, Fred. I think you're right. I mean, there's already class action lawsuits in the way and everything like that. Like...

It's coming from different points. Do you think Tesla is using the subscription cost of FSD to reduce the value of FSD at trade-in based on how many months you have had FSD? I don't think they can do that. I don't think that's... No. All right. Mike the Car Geek says SAE 4.5 are more like SAE 3, which some engineers and lawyers want to skip over. That's not true, is it? I mean, yes, they are more alike. And like 3, it's certainly different. But I...

I don't see the argument that there's no value in three. I think there's clear value in three. It's much easier achievable. I understand that the, the, um, Passover from the system to the driver is,

is a complicated issue there's no doubt about it but i think there's a way to do it uh let's give like mercedes a chance because mercedes has done it in europe it's it's it's in place right now i haven't gotten a ton of feedback from it but even from our quick test that we did there like it it made sense in traffic like you just activated and then you're not responsible the system is responsible and then once you

Get out of the highway or whatever. Switch over and it's back to you. There's value in that. Maybe not $19,500 of value, but there's some value. All right. Level three is not easier than level four. Obviously, if it's for public roads, it's just that they handle all human traffic with human

Being eyes off and up to 10 seconds transition time. All right, let's keep going. Manufacturers know the time it takes to realize AVE is failing to negotiate a problem. And for a disengaged driver who has learned to rely on the car to do all the driving and take over, it equals too long. Not much I'm following there. All right. Let's see. I'm just going to keep moving here. Yeah, I think there's a lot of discussions in the comments. GM sales are embarrassing. I agree. Yeah.

So, Mike the Car Geek says, R2 next year, no chance. I wonder if that's based on anything or because Rivian plans currently to release the R2 next year. Or at least announce it. I don't know what their exact delivery time is. Question. Okay. Another nickel up. Fisker delivered more than one vehicle in the U.S. That's good enough for now. Okay. Pretty low bar. Another nickel up. Yeah. Why discuss that?

Maybe we should try to get a documentary team or Netflix or Discovery Channel for the solar race. We have so much dumb TV. It would be great to be following the students' development and competition. I agree. That would be super cool. Yeah. The Optimus robot knows jujitsu like Zuckerberg. It can defend itself. That's hilarious. Duke, when is the next quarterly meeting? I can't find it. If it's Tesla you're referring to, it's July 19th. Okay. Yeah.

And last question I can find, Carl in San Diego question. If you had to guess the first legacy to exceed EV production higher than Tesla, which one would it be? I don't think they'll ever catch up to Tesla. Tesla would need to fumble hard, like really hard for someone to catch up. Like the idea that anyone can catch up right now is all based on like

from the legacy standpoint is like we're already producing so much more vehicles than them right now so like yeah for sure when everything is electric you're gonna still produce much more car than them but right now when you look at their vehicle programs they're just flat compared to tesla like there's there's another like hockey stick curve to test us it it's just not there and there's no

So I think in like two years, there's going to be like big six figures, high six figures, mid to high six figures vehicle programs outside of Tesla. I think that in two years, in 2025. But Tesla already has some of those that are not going away. And within the two years, they are likely going to have three more of those. So that's probably going to be more mid to high six figures vehicle programs outside

than the rest of the industry combined, which there's none right now, by the way, just so we're clear. There's just Tesla as two of those. The answer to this is none of those. And Tesla's going to have two or three more

Within the next two years and probably the rest of the industry also had two or three of those. But this is going to have already more than that. So there's no it's going to be hard to catch up to Tesla because of that. Again, the only way is that if Tesla fumbles hard, super hard, which I don't see them do. Maybe the Cybertruck is a big flop, but I think I think it's going to do at least fine.

It's probably going to do what Tesla expects it to do right now, which, as Electric revealed last month, they're telling suppliers right now about 375,000 units a year. It's a good vehicle program, mid six figures. And then they're going to have, obviously, the robo-taxis. This one could also fumble, obviously, because of...

its nature being self-driving and Tesla having issues on there. But then the Model 2 is going to be a hit. I don't think Tesla is going to screw them. I don't want to say Model 2, but the cheaper vehicle. I always remember this. We were at the Model 3 launch and we were watching the vehicles, the test drive and Seth said, I don't see why people...

are going to buy the Model S and X anymore with that. And I wasn't completely on board with that, but it turns out I think you were more right than I was on this. But I think the same thing is going to happen. We're going to have the same thinking when the Model 3 is going to go. I think the Model 3s and Model Y are still going to do fine just because of the momentum of things. But I think we're going to have this impression of Tesla's going to just...

take everything that works with Model 3 and Model Y and fit it in the package of a cheaper vehicle. I think that's completely doable. Yeah. And, you know, I think the addressable market right now, Tesla is still a premium brand. When they go down market a little bit more, it's going to be, it's going to like unlock a whole new audience for them. So I agree. And like you said, Tesla is going,

bonkers right now, like in numbers, like every year is, you know, they don't double every year, but it's like an 80% improvement. Meanwhile, like, you know, Ford's down, GM's, you know, down a little bit, like they're slowing down ID for production. It's like, it's, it's not going to be even close. Like maybe in 10 years, something weird happens with Tesla. And, you know, there's a revolutionary, revolutionary guy at Hyundai, for instance. And, and yeah,

So something like that could happen. But for right now and the next five years, I don't see anybody catching Tesla. Not even coming close. No, because you look at what's happening with the ones that seems genuine in the pursuit of the transition to electric vehicles like Ford. And I feel it is genuine. And you see what's happening. Like it's hard. And Farley seems to be on board. It's just, you know, it seems to be like...

you recognize what's happening and it's just, it's hard to do. And then you have on the other side of the spectrum, you have Toyota, which is completely lost in this old, in this old thing. And he's just too attached to their eyes business to, to commit to a transition. And so that's the two hands of the spectrum. Yeah.

And even at the better end of it, you don't see them catching up to Tesla. So yeah, there's no one's going to catch up to Tesla. Yeah, I mean, if anything, I could see a disruption coming from China. Yeah, the Chinese are definitely better equipped to do it. From a global standpoint. Like BYD just need to stop.

change its name properly. Or at least not use the Build Your Dream on your car. Just remove that to start with. Just use BYD. That's already going to be a big improvement. There's a lot of things that... There's just small things that BYD could do to just...

be more palatable to the Western market, I think. But no, they're going to do great things in other markets, the OB-YD, I think. They just, they're not, they don't seem to be tuned into the North American market right now.

All right. All right. Well, that's it for us this week. It was a long show, an hour 20. I appreciate every single one of you that's still listening right now. If you are listening on your podcast app, you can click a like, subscribe, whatever it is. You can give us a five-star review. That helps a ton too. And we're going to see you same time, same place next week. Have a nice one.