Work in Progress: Kevin McHale

2024/8/22

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Kevin McHale discusses his childhood dream of becoming a weatherman, influenced by his fear of tornadoes and fascination with the weather.

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Hi everybody, it's Savannah got 3 from the today show as we head back to work back to school back to everything we want to help you turn your to do list into your today last your morning routine healthy meals and workout plans we've got you covered so you can take it all on with simple solutions to help you through the day everything you need to know before heading out the door so join us every morning on NBC because every day needs today.

Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome back to Work in Progress, friends. Today we are joined by someone that I absolutely adore on screen and adore even more off. A frequent guest at parties at my house and someone that I love to lean on for laughter and also for spitballing how to make it through this crazy world. Today's guest is none other than Kevin McHale.

You likely know Kevin from his incredible role as Artie Abrams on the Fox TV series Glee. He was nominated for a Grammy Award, three Screen Actors Guild Awards for Outstanding Performance by an Ensemble in a Comedy Series, and two Teen Choice Awards for his role as Artie on Glee. He has hosted comedy panels, podcasts, been on The Office,

and American Horror Story. As a singer, Kevin released his debut EP in 2019, and in addition to performing, he directs music videos for other incredible artists.

Growing up in Texas's Tornado Alley, Kevin has a whole lot to say about the Weather Service, how he grew up wanting to be a weatherman, and why that curiosity mixed with the wild circus of our day jobs led him into really, really incredible political activism for equity. I am so excited to have a conversation that really covers all of this and more with my dear friend, Kevin. Enjoy.

Hi. This feels really fun. It feels very fun. Well, I'm very excited that you're here. Thanks for having me. One of the things I actually really like to do with people when they come on the show and they're not like one of my friends who I just want to shoot this with. I actually like people to take me all the way back because in this world of having these crazy jobs we have, people often meet you on a show. They meet you as an adult. They get to know you when you've had some modicum of success, right? Right. And...

I'm always really curious if from, you know, inside of yourself today, like Kevin, artist, performer, host, multi-hyphenate, if you look back at your little boy self at like eight or nine years old, do you see the through line of how you wound up here? Or was this completely crazy, unexpected, and your eight-year-old self would never believe what you do for a living?

Totally both. Yes, because of like my interests when I came out of the womb, it makes sense. Okay. But you know how it is of the fact that anybody can find success and what they love to do. Yeah. Is mind boggling. Like the amount of like, you can be prepared, you can have done all the things you needed to do to put yourself in the right position, but it still takes a little sprinkling of magical timing and luck. And the fact that

That has happened to me a couple times is mind-boggling. My parents have been visiting the past week, so there's been a lot of

that like nostalgia looking back, you know, we used to come out here for acting in LA for acting things. And so there's been a lot of intro, you know, introspective reflection this past week. So it's a apropos question. Okay. So, so paint a little bit of a picture for me, you know, little, little boy version of you, where's he growing up? What's he into? What's, what's the vibe in the house? The quickest picture to paint is, is,

I was nine years old when Titanic came out. Okay. Belting out My Heart Will Go On. Oh. And just like I had to, you know, like I just had to do it. Yeah. So. Yeah. There was no way you were going to survive if you didn't. No. Or I would be in front of the TV learning the dance routines to NSYNC and like Britney Spears, Michael Jackson. Wow. Or I would. I don't know if you remember there was this.

like cheap video camera, like home video camera that, because like the real ones were expensive and we didn't have it like that. But there were like one Christmas, some like toy video camera came out and I got it. And I used to film myself doing, playing Good Morning America. And so I would be a news anchor and I would film myself doing the weather, which is really what I wanted to do. You wanted to be the weatherman. Oh, desperately. Yeah. Wait, why? Tell me everything. I grew up in Tornado Alley.

And I was deathly afraid of tornadoes. And so I would sit in front of the weather channel every day, all day,

And so I learned everything about the weather. I would read books on the weather because I was so scared that I don't know how that... Maybe I felt if I knew about it, I could see the signs that a tornado was forming or something and then get everybody into a safe room or something. So like if you became an expert at the thing you were afraid of, maybe you'd see it coming before everyone else. Yes, which did happen. Like we would go to Florida for vacation in the summers and...

Tampa where we would lose like the lightning capital of the world. So I would see the storms coming and be like, we all have to get inside now. Just real fun. I was a really fun kid. Yeah. Uplifting. Yeah. Just paranoid all the time. But yeah, so I used to film myself. I would make maps of the United States. I would make the cold front things and the

Oh, yeah. Wait, have you seen the weatherman? And now, of course, that I want to tell you this on a show with all of these listeners, I can't think of his name. I DM his videos to people all the time. He he'll take a poll and ask people on Instagram what song he's

he should work the lyrics into in his next weather report yes and and he does everything from like the yin yang twins he is so funny it's brilliant like that's who i would want to be if i if i was weatherman that's who i'd want to be yeah absolutely it's not too late no maybe i'll be a mayor and maybe you'll be a weatherman great or can i be like secretary of weather yes i'd be in the cabinet oh

Well, here's the thing. If Project 2025 goes through, there won't be a National Weather Service anymore, which feels insane given that we do live in a country with a tornado alley and, you know, coasts that get pounded by hurricanes. But should we beat rising fascism and actually preserve American democracy, then the agencies that, you know, do the weather reporting will continue to exist. And then I absolutely think you should be in charge of one of them.

What a crazy, crazy thing that's happening. Like it's like it's almost like somewhere there was a rip in the Matrix and the writers of Parks and Rec got made in charge of writing Scandal. Well, or the West Wing, perhaps. And everything is it's hard to be it's hard to believe that.

that these things are to be believed and yet it's happening. And not only is it happening, they've published the 900 page fascist manifesto for us to read. And then they say, no, no, that's not real. And you're like, no, but you published it. It's gaslighting. Oh, but that's what they do. Well, yes. I mean, they're very good at it. And that's why when you're like, well, no, Trump tanked the border bill. No, he didn't. Um,

Gaslighting 101. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they even made it so readily available online. There's tabs you can click on to go to the thing. It's great. Like, oh, here's their...

horrific plan to ruin democracy yeah here's the plan to undo democracy here's the plan to completely undo um health care and medicaid what's that senior citizens they don't need anything let them die like that's literally what they're saying and then there's they're telling us that we've misheard or misread and again i just keep thinking no this is on your your platform all you have to do is copy and paste those sentences and spit them back to them and be like no

Like, no, no, I didn't do anything. I'm simply just showing you what you have published. I do feel like I know we're getting off topic, but it feels like it's starting to land on deaf ears a bit. And I'm very happy in a good way. And I think in I think a way in which we know this shtick, we're over it. And not just like the people who always vote Democrat.

I think there is a good portion in the middle there that is just like, oh, same show. Well, you know, it's interesting. I was talking to my parents about this because I ask them a lot of questions about their generation. You know, they're in their 70s. Same. And my dad is like, yeah, even my friends who I didn't agree with who were right-leaning 40 years ago.

are now like, okay, we've lost the plot. This is not... We're not having a difference of opinion about budget. We're not doing that. We're literally... You've got a candidate who is copying close to verbatim quotes from Adolf Hitler. Mm-hmm. Talking about wanting America to be an oligarchy and then everyone else to be peasants who die at alarming rates. And...

it's like i i don't care if you don't think medicare for all is an option i could show you where you're wrong because it's math math is actually very unemotional it's it would be cheaper for us to keep people healthy than to treat all the sick people in our country but we're not even debating that we're literally talking about like nazis or the right to vote it's like full it's so crazy that

I think it's hard for people who quote unquote don't do politics to ignore at this point. Yes. And I also think for the people who are like, oh, no, he's not actually going to do those things. I think at this point, you're in the minority if you don't believe them or don't take them at their word because they're showing you exactly what... I mean, to your point too about...

There was a great respect for progress intentionally was slow. You take two steps forward, one step back, every switch of a presidency, and that's fine. You bring the people along with you. You have a consensus. There's consensus building. I like the way you phrase that. It's not fast, and it's not as fast as we want it to be ever, but generally we move in a consensus-driven direction. Sure. Fine. And like what you said,

now and like old school Republicans, it's like, well, we're not, we're not nowhere near to having those questions and debates. Debate is good. Having a disagreement is good. If it's filled with substance, then,

Yeah. And filled with like actually like you feel ethically and morally obligated to defend this position and back it up with X, Y and Z. Now we're not doing that. Now we're just attacking feelings and opinions. Well, and now we're literally just paying politicians to do things they know will hurt people like Clarence Thomas taking four million dollars worth of bribes to then eviscerate people's rights on the Supreme Court. It's like what?

They're just doing crime in public now?

This is so crazy. And there's even more that gets uncovered. So much more. What else is there, though? Okay, so I have a question for you because I get this a lot. And we did just say we sort of went off topic. We went from childhood to election. But, you know, we're stressed. Our rights are on the chopping block after all. Also, you and I, like, see each other mostly at these, like, political things. Oh, yeah. We're always together in D.C., never in L.A., and we're basically neighbors. And, like, nobody else...

We're like the two people I feel like from LA who are just constantly in DC and everyone's like, why are you here? And you're like, because we have work to do. So this was going to be my question because a lot of people believe the crazy lie that like entertainers are all privileged. They don't understand that most people in our industry are circus performers living paycheck to paycheck. Yes. And when people will say to me like, oh, well, what do you know? Like you, what do you know about, you know, paying your fair share? And I'm like, oh, you mean the entertainment

entire democratic socialism of Hollywood, which means everybody makes a percentage of the money I make. Like I don't make my own money. Everybody on my team gets paid first. And I'm kind of proud of that. But like, I have to work, I have to make 10 X to make,

even money with everyone on my team. Like that's how it is. So that's part of why we work so hard. And when people are like, what do you know about unions or this or that? I'm like, well, the only reason I have healthcare is because I'm in a union. Like I'm literally in this circus performer union, SAG-AFTRA, and it is the only reason I get to go to the doctor or the dentist. I'm very grateful for it. And it's great health insurance. It's great health insurance. I mean, it used to be better, but we're working our way back. But I think people don't,

understand what a team sport our line of work is. And because I think, you know, they see the two actors in a scene and they don't know there's 200 people on set making that scene happen. They see you go to the Golden Globes, which everybody thinks is our life. And it's actually like this ridiculous lie. And none of us know what we're doing there. And we're wearing all borrowed clothes and borrowed jewelry. And we're terrified to lose it because God forbid we got mugged. We could never pay the brand back for the thing that was stolen from us. Like,

It's this wild sort of thing. And I'm like, I guess it would be cool if people could see that most of the time we're hanging out on sets that don't have great climate control because the climate control messes up the microphones. And it's like, it's the actors union, the construction union, the transportation union. Like it's just us and a bunch of crew humans. Yeah.

Yes. And so I think because we can only move forward if we're part of a team, we believe in the team spirit of America. Holy. And that's sort of the only way I know how to explain it to people. Is that why you feel politically passionate or was there like a moment that made you go, oh, I need to know more about this? You know, there was a moment.

Free me working more regularly where prop eight, the whole prop eight thing was happening. And it was around the time I was going to be able to vote for the first time. So I was 17 or 18. And I remember there were protests on the street corner outside my apartment complex and secretly like closeted gay kid. And me and my friends were like, let's go check it out. And then I,

like one of my straight best friends like got a sign he's like we have to go protest this is crazy and so we went and protested and it was like that small act I always watch the news clearly I love the weather channel I was engaged in you know those types of things and I think because it directly impacted me yeah unfortunately like it shouldn't have to take something like that but I think that was my sort of gateway into it where I saw for the first time

people, it wasn't politicians talking. It was just people in my neighborhood, in my community with opposing visions for what they wanted to happen in the state. And that coupled with absolutely when you're on a set, you are dealing with people from all walks of life. It is a very unglamorous job. Yeah. And I think you're right. People see the movie stars or the big TV stars as

And that's what you associate with it. But the actual work of it, the job of it is very humbling in the sense of, yeah, we're getting paid more than almost everybody on the crew. But they're there before us. They're there after us. They usually have families who are waiting on them and they don't get to spend that much time with their kids. Like on Glee, we had 15, 16 hour days regularly. Oh, yeah. And so it was.

It's a way to, it was always a way to really quickly check any amount of privilege you had walking into that situation. Because like for Glee, it was also the first time I was making any sort of money. Yeah. And it felt very strange. And it almost felt wrong in a way. And the amount of respect you have for people doing the gaffers and the sound and the, that we know nothing about.

Right. And like the show doesn't get made without hundreds of people, like you said, showing up every single day. And I think because I was lucky, I think because the type of show that we were on and what it represented, the crew was affected by that. I felt like it was a full team effort. We're doing this really positive thing for society. And it never felt like it was an us thing.

and them thing. It's how I learned about unions. It's how I learned the importance of unions and respecting all those different types of viewpoints, having people come and work on the show. That was a really super gay show and watching people. Nobody talked about their personal beliefs, but you could sort of sense things changing and how people were into it and like, oh, my kids really like this. And so it was a really nice way to sort of get a slice of

life, a slice of different communities and demographics that you wouldn't normally, someone that was 20 years old, wouldn't normally be interacting with on a daily basis for that many hours. And so, yeah, I feel like a more well-informed citizen because of that. And because every day you're up against other people who are unlike you. And I think that is, and that is the old way that, you know, I think politics used to work where, you

You get in rooms with people. If you only surround yourself with people who have the exact same opinions and life experience of you as you, you're not going to get anywhere. Yeah. Because it's just all, you're in a vacuum and everyone's agreeing. You don't have to defend your position and being challenged and seeing, you know, things from other people's perspective is what we do as actors. Yeah.

As citizens, I think that's what you have to do to be well-informed and well-engaged. I agree. And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible.

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Well, and I think it's really important to have a willingness to noodle on something, to really get into the nitty gritty of it. And in art, you know, in our line of work, that's

so important. You have to sit with your coworkers and figure out like what you're doing to make the thing on the page be more than just typeface. And then for some reason, we've gotten to this point where people don't really want to, they don't want to noodle on things and they don't want to accept reality. It's like,

Part of the reason I've become such a policy nerd and I get so deep in the data is because math is unemotional. It's just addition and subtraction, et cetera, et cetera. Like when people just say, well, that's just not true. Or, you know, this politician hasn't done anything. And I'm like, literally look at the pages and pages and pages of this person's record. I'm not impressed by that. And I'm like, what? I had this conversation with somebody the other day. It was fascinating because we can get stuck in our, you know, people who agree with me.

or ourselves. And I was at a dinner and there were these like two young guys in their early 20s and politics came up. And I knew how like the friends who invited me to dinner felt. I knew we were all on the same page. And this kid was talking about it was after the assassination attempt of Trump. And he was like, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, just very gung ho, loud and boisterous, but not saying anything about like pro-Trump stuff.

And I felt, I was like, this is great. I want to hear what other people are saying and thinking. And then when we, I was like, okay, well, that's not true. And here's why, you know, what you just said. He's like, well, I'd love to see those numbers. I'm like, you can, you absolutely can. Those are all readily available. Yeah. You can, you can pull up your phone right now and search on Google. We can talk about inflation all day. Yeah. And yeah,

He just sort of like shut down immediately. And I was like, okay, because what I heard you say was everything from a Fox News pundit, like, which I get. And I understand why you're saying these things. But here's some pushback for you. I like to be challenged. I like someone to come at me with numbers. I have no problem admitting I was wrong.

But like, give me the data, like prove it to me. That's what's frustrating for me too. Like when, when we talk about the, the sort of, and I don't mean this to be rude. It's, it's literally a quote from an article I read, like the brain rot being caused by Fox news.

This is a company that multiple times has gone to court and defended themselves by saying, we are not a news program. We're entertainment. No intelligent viewer would believe we are the news. And I'm like, you're literally going to court and making fun of your own viewers. You're calling them stupid.

But your defense for the reason that they're, quote, stupid is because you're lying to them. They don't care. You are lying to these people and then riling them up and then causing them to go in the streets with, you know, semi-automatic weapons and like do the most insane shit.

And then going, well, that wasn't our fault. As long as the check clears. It's like, as long as the check clears, they don't care. There's no moral obligation or responsibility. Well, and what's crazy is that someone like a Tucker Carlson will make fun of people like me and you when he was making $40 million a year to lie to people on Fox News. And I'm like, bitch, in my entire life, I don't think I'm ever going to see that much money. I think I would have to win the lottery. Like, what are you talking about? Didn't Hirsch Limbaugh used to make like...

Like $80 million is something you hear from this podcast or radio show? Yes. Yes. And I'm out here being like, well, if I make a dollar, I pay my agent 10 cents. I pay my manager 10 cents. I pay my publicist 10 cents. I pay my assistant 10 cents. Then I pay my union. Then I pay my taxes. If I'm lucky, I keep 20 cents. You're a really good friend and you also throw really great events at your house that probably aren't cheap either. They're not, but they're like the source of my joy. Yeah.

But, you know, you're spending. Yeah, man. Like, and it's just so weird. I'm like, y'all accuse us of, like, not knowing how to share, and you're just over here being robber barons. It's so weird. It is so weird. But...

I have a question. Yeah. To go back to the place where we began, sort of-ish, about what you were talking about on Glee. Like, that experience of being on your first show, having it be such an enormous hit. I mean, from critically acclaimed to, like, a ratings juggernaut to also...

surfacing these social conversations about outcasts and queer kids and even disability and like all of these things that weren't really happening before. And when you talk about, and I want to know more about this, what it was like to see people expand perhaps as they worked on the show, you know, in front of or behind the camera. But the real first question about that

that I want to ask is really for you. Like, what did that feel like for you? How old were you? What was the audition process like? Did you know this was going to be really special? Or were you like, I don't know if this is going to work. Is anybody going to care about like, you know, quote unquote outcast kids singing? Like, what was that like? The...

My manager called me and she was like, there's this great pilot. And it was right towards the end of, it was right after the writer's strike of 07. Okay. And so it was supposed to be a mid-season replacement. Okay. And so it was, it was early 2008. My manager loved the script and she was like, you need to read this. It's hilarious. And there's music in it.

I didn't really think too much of the music component. Okay. Wow. I was doing music at the time. I know. And so it seemed like, oh, this is fun. But I couldn't, in my little simple brain, couldn't really conceptualize how it was going to be done.

And so I just read it like a normal script and it was really dark. Like the humor was so dark and sarcastic and I loved it and I laughed out loud. And you know, I'll audition for anything, but it's not very often that you get a script that you really, really love. Yeah. And it was one of those like, oh, this is very good.

like yes i want to absolutely audition for it yeah we'll see who knows you know you're you get one out of every 800 auditions whatever it is and so i was like yeah i'll audition for this whatever and so i went and auditioned for it it was me and robert orich the casting director in his little office it was one of those places where everybody in the waiting room can hear you

Oh, God. Nightmare. Nightmare. Especially because you're singing. It's already bad enough when people can hear you doing the scenes. Yeah. Through the door, you just hear, but I...

Yes. I'm like sweating now thinking about it. It's the worst possible setup. Yeah. But I went in there. I did the song. I sang Let It Be by the Beatles. I didn't nail it because I thought it would just need a verse and a chorus. And so I only really practiced that.

And then I got past the chorus and he's like, keep going. I don't know any more words. You're like, can I go back to the beginning? And I think I just started like repeating the first verse and then eventually stopped and laughed and then did the scene. And he's like, OK, when you come back, can you prepare two songs? And the scenes are great. I was like, oh, I guess I'm coming back. And then I auditioned for Ryan Murphy and the entire team. It went from being in front of one guy to like 15 people.

- Yeah. - In Ryan's office on Paramount. And then I found out a couple of days later that they wanted me to test for it. I had never tested for anything before. - Oh my gosh. - And so I then had to wait six weeks for them to, yes, I found out I was testing. And they're like, well, we have to find other people. - Oh my God, 'cause they needed you to test with other actors for other roles. - And they didn't have anybody to test yet for any of the other roles either.

So I think they had secret... I think they had cast Leah. And I think they had possibly cast Matthew Morrison. Okay. And I...

Maybe Jane was in the picture being talked about at some point. Oh my God. But any of the kids besides Leah, they didn't have. So I had to wait. And didn't... Am I crazy? Because time is so bendy since the pandemic. Also, I've learned that people with ADHD have time blindness. So maybe it's not the pandemic. Maybe it's just my brain. But...

What I feel like I remember because I remember when she did Spring Awakening and like it was I mean, just like this revelatory show. And I feel like Spring Awakening led to her getting cast on Glee. Right. Yes. Because I mean, that voice like, duh. Insane. OK. She.

I think she was still in Spring Awakening. Oh my gosh. So I think Ryan had seen her. Jenna was also in Spring Awakening. Oh, that's right. Oh my God. Yeah. So like they were fully pulling from. Okay. Okay. They were pulling Broadway kids left and right. Yes. Okay. Which I went and tested against

My first test was against nobody. They had taped people in New York and then... Stop. So then two days later, they flew in a Broadway guy from New York and I tested against him. And when I found out he was on Broadway, I remember texting my manager and my sister. You're like, it's over. Yeah, I'm like, well, this is a good run. Like...

I had two tests. I've never been called back four times for something like, you know. Oh my God, you sweet soul. I'm like, this is a good experience. Pretty devastating. But yeah, and then I got it, which was wild. I was 20. I was going to say, because I know you were 20 when it aired. So it was pretty tight. Yes. I got it in September of 2008. We shot the pilot all of October and then it aired...

In May of 2009. May. Oh my gosh. So because they ended up holding it, it ended up not being, they liked it so much that they picked it up for a full half season. Originally it was going to be picked up for maybe six or seven episodes. Oh wow. They gave us 13 episodes and we're going to hold it until the fall.

But we aired the pilot after the season finale of American Idol. Smart. Just to like, you guys see it and then we'll be back in three months. But no, in answer to one of your other questions, we did not have any idea if it was going to be a success because there was nothing really to compare it to. Any musical show had not done well. Right.

But we knew and what we really learned from the crew, because this was almost all of us. It was our first show. Yeah. And the crew who were veterans were like, this is special. You guys should enjoy this. And so and that's who we were performing for. I mean, for the six seasons, that's who we were always performing for. Yeah. Oh, my God. How fun. And so like they...

were such, I mean, every crew is an integral part of a set, but I feel like there was even that extra layer of they were our audience and they were really involved in those performances, even if they were never on camera. And from the pilot on, we really benefited from that. And we knew we had a great time doing it. We loved it. We loved the humor. We loved the music. When we saw the pilot,

It was pretty overwhelming in the sense of, I think this works really well. Oh, my gosh. But, like, who are we to judge? Yeah. Well, you just never know. Yeah. And that's the thing. Like, how many friends did I have who got pilots and no one ever knew and no one ever saw them because they didn't – more often than not, pilots didn't get picked up. And now a word from our sponsors.

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Hi everybody, it's Savannah Guthrie from the today show as we head back to work back to school back to everything we want to help you turn your to do list into your today last your morning routine healthy meals and workout plans we've got you covered so you can take it all on with simple solutions to help you through the day everything you need to know before heading out the door so join us every morning on NBC because every day needs today.

I made this show that I was so passionate about years ago, like so passionate about. And I'll never forget the DP was such a baller. Sat me down and was like, I've never been wrong about a show that I've DP'd. This is going to air. This is going to win every award. This is one of the best scripts I've ever read. I have had the most fun working on this and watching all of you actors and da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And it, it had a political bent to it. And yeah,

This, this premise of our pilot, which was like, this could never, ever happen. Wouldn't it be crazy if this happened in the government? Essentially happened because we had a con man get elected as the president. And literally the network was like, it's an incredible project. We can't, we can't put this on the air. And I was like,

this but this is my baby this is like this is the love of my of my working life like is that supposed to make me feel better yeah and they were just like yeah we're not looking to become um targets for the president so bye so sorry and i was like well this baller ass show we made will never see the light of day and um right

But it's like you just never know. You never know what's going to be the circumstance. You never know what's going to happen in the world. You never know if it's going to be exactly what culture needs or something where you've missed a window. And that's one of the things I think was so interesting.

about your show. I mean, talk about like parties at my house. Obviously, like Jenny and I did that, you know, professionally in our off time for a decade as roommates together. And you were at most of them. And like Jenny was the one who introduced me to the league. She was like, what do you mean you're not watching this show? And I was like, I've heard it's really good, but like I'm, I'm,

I'm on set for 16, 18 hours on my show. And she was like, I don't care. Like Sundays we're watching, we're doing something. And we just started binging the show. And so when you and I became friends, I was just like...

I'm so proud of you. And also like, are you good? Are you so tired? Are you okay? Like, do you need a hug? Cause I knew, I was like, I know how hard our hours are on us. And we have one basketball day, an episode, and you're essentially doing a full Broadway production every single week. Like, sir, are you taking Epsom salt baths? What are you doing for yourself? But I felt like when I met you, um,

because your show was just so gigantic. You were all wildly famous, which is a different thing than our show. Yes. I didn't feel like that. I was the exact age. I think I was the exact demographic who grew up watching you guys. And so I think I could at least feel like you're on every magazine cover, like just everywhere. I just felt like all we did was get made fun of on The Soup.

But maybe that's that human thing, right? Like people compliment you and you're like, it can't possibly be true. And then people tell you you're terrible and you're like, they must be right. Well, I think it's that you can't feel it when you're inside of it. Yeah. You can to an extent, but...

When you're in the beast of it, in the machine, you were off shooting, especially in another state. So crazy. You're so far removed from it. We were locked on these stages. But in L.A. But like 10 months out of the year, though. So we didn't have a lot of public interaction. It was only really when we went on tour the first two seasons or we would go home for the holidays. Yeah.

And you would go to other states and like, oh, right. Something's different. Right. People are watching this. This is crazy because it didn't feel like that. Like we were just having a good time and I'm sure it was a similar experience for you where like I'm working. I've made a lot of great friends. I do imagine though, I imagine the dynamic, we didn't all become individually like really famous. The show became famous. Yes.

I feel like your guys' show and you as individuals became quite famous, which I think would be an additional sort of mind because everybody's young. Everybody's having probably like the most success they'd had up to that point. To an extent. It was my first show. Yeah. And so there's no training for that. And so the amount that we interface with that, I could see how it affected everybody because

But I think you guys like personally were on a different level. And I can't imagine how hard or just the mind. I know, it was terrible. What's also weird is we were, we, you know, our show premiered in the early 2000s. So it was very much, now we understand, right? Like we've had the Britney Spears documentary. We understand the way that the press in particular treated women. Yeah.

And I think what was the most alarming about it for us is that they essentially decided what caricature of a person we were. And then they've tried to remit us to that for clickbait ever since. Right. And it's a very weird and bizarre thing to be reduced to like a cartoon version of a human. But I think that's true for everyone. And like...

And society has also shifted in so many interesting ways. I, as a fan of your show, and aside from being a person who has a friendship with you, as a fan of watching you as a performer, I loved your portrayal of Artie. I loved him. I loved everything that you did with it. I thought...

I just thought you were so beautiful. And I understand that as things have shifted and we are having different kinds of conversations about representation, you have also publicly said, like, I'm an able-bodied person. I shouldn't have been playing this disabled character. And you played him so beautifully and you brought that experience back.

into the forefront of culture for so many people who have lived with disabilities and been kept out of so many spaces. And I remember hearing you first talk about it and thinking like, yeah, absolutely. And now I'm also in this position where I feel like it's a both and. Yes, of course, casting should work harder to find people who have lived this and

You, you did such a beautiful job as a storyteller, making all of us learn about stories like his. And I would imagine because I know who you are and we talked about this earlier, like the research you did and the people you spent time with, I know you carried them into set with you every single day that you played Artie. So it's like, I guess I bring that up only to say we've shifted so much about so many conversations and then.

in certain ways, I mean, at least with media culture, I think not enough has shifted, but how do you kind of feel about all of it now? Has your purview expanded? Like, do you have more room for both kindness and accountability with yourself? Like, what is that like all these years later?

- Very well said and asked. And thank you. - Oh, thanks. - It's very hard to compliment. - I love you. I know it's really difficult. I can't even look at you while I'm giving you your flowers. - As a friend though, I don't know if people know though, you are very supportive of all your friends. And there's been times when I've wanted to get an audition, I couldn't get an audition. And you helped me before be like,

okay, if you were in a meeting, what do you want to get out of it? What are you trying to say? Help me formulate my plan. And it worked and it worked. And so you're just, you're very supportive of your friends and I appreciate it. So thank you. I completely agree with everything you said. I think at the time, it already was not the first audition I had playing somebody in a wheelchair. Those were things that just happened. And I think I was blissfully happy

ignorant to representation in general and what that actually meant because through playing a character who was not normally seen on television on network television every single week and seeing how much it meant to people in chairs especially to kids in chairs and having their parents tell me that the kids and then actors who were in chairs needed to see that and

Yes, in an ideal world would already have been played by somebody who was actually in the chair Absolutely, but I also think Glee was at that time and we always say this like it was sort of that bridge between

It was the end of an era and the beginning of a new era. Where at the end of it, we knew better about a lot of things. And culture was shifting for the better in that way. Yeah. Where, you know, there's some things in Glee that did not age well. We were sort of workshopping those things. What works, what doesn't work. Oh, there are things that I see when I rewatch One Tree Hill and I'm like, oh my God.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm sure. And some of them are fights we didn't even know to have. And some of them are fights I tried to have and lost because, you know, we have no power as babies on a set. And good God, I'm like, I was right. I should have fought harder on that one. And then there's the things you don't see coming and you just go, oh, that really hasn't aged well. I can't believe nobody caught that. Yeah. I mean, we...

We're watching season four now, and we just started to deal with a trans character. And every time there's like a scene that's around, I'm like, how is this going to go? And I don't even think I realized at the time.

um what we were the significance of that even if it was not exactly right and it wasn't a lot of the time the fact that it was happening at all and trying to figure out how to have that conversation amongst young people because there's also a show that kids watch with their families a lot so this is an introduction and an education to many generations who are watching this show together um but back to the arty of it all

I felt very privileged to play it. I felt, play him, I felt a gigantic responsibility. It did feel weird and uncomfortable for some of that because like, I'm obviously not in a wheelchair like this, but I got hired to do a job and that's... Right. I'm very grateful for that. It's conflicting a lot of the time, but it was like, let me just sort of do no harm. I think it's sort of what I felt like. Did they...

Did they hire like a specialist for you? Did you have a movement coach? Like how did you learn or you were responsible to go and meet folks in chairs and do all your research and learn about, you know, what sorts of paralysis he might have? Like that was all up to you? Yeah. And so I, yeah. And so I was like, I guess I'll just,

Try to go meet people. And I did like through the high school I had just graduated from a year before in the community college that I went to at the high school and all that. Yeah. And just also just trying to be observant and trying to see what life was like for somebody to chair in real life. Right. In different spaces.

And I also got critiques from that community. I remember the beginning of season two, I was getting fitted for a new chair. And the guy who was fitting me, who was in a chair, he corrected the way I was sitting. He's like, by the way, and in one breath, I was horrified that I had done 22 episodes that was seemingly wrong. I also...

was very very grateful that he felt like he could speak up yeah and say that to me and he was absolutely going to be heard because again I was like this let me not do this incorrectly thank you give me all the feedback and so any any position you know any argument of that I shouldn't be playing the part yeah I hear you absolutely and now we do know better and I think now that

characters like that have been seen then also creator showrunners creators writers casting directors now know to look for that now and people in chairs know that they can be cast in something and i think that has to we have to challenge it from both sides yeah i think that's really a beautiful way to put it when those opportunities come up you just yeah like you said you just have to work a little harder to find the right people for the gig and now a word from our wonderful sponsors

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Hi everybody, it's Savannah Guthrie from the Today Show. As we head back to work, back to school, back to everything, we want to help you turn your to-do list into your today list. Your morning routine, healthy meals and workout plans. We've got you covered so you can take it all on with simple solutions to help you through the day. Everything you need to know before heading out the door. So join us every morning on NBC because every day needs today.

The thing that you said earlier I really love is remembering that progress, like getting farther down the road, does always require a bridge. Somebody has to help build the bridge from the way we think we've always done it to what's possible on the other side of the river.

And what a cool thing that, you know, in this timeline of culture and storytelling, you helped to do that. And really did help to bring a conversation about representation and disability into the forefront. Because Glee became this, I mean, juggernaut. Like, what a huge show. The awards and the stories and the things and...

I mean, what was amazing and what was dramatic and, you know, much... I think any show that lasts for as long as ours did, like, there's always rumors of drama and yada yada, and it's like half of it's bullshit and half of it's worse than anyone ever knows. Yeah, the stuff that doesn't get out is always... It's always the craziest part. Yeah, like, you made up this thing. We used to, like, bring, like, tabloids into the, like, choir room and just read them out loud for everyone. And cackle. And we would all laugh because none of it was ever...

Ever true. And I will say, like, we were also, it's family. So, like, if there is a disagreement or sort of infighting, we can talk about it. Yeah. But if anybody else says it, we get very defensive of it. Because there was one time, I think there was, like, one article that was a little too close. Yeah. And we're like, first of all, who said that shit?

like who like we can handle this internally this is nobody's business because it's not it sounds disproportionately like like a big deal when other people hear about it like you said they try to cast you in these caricatures of what they think you are yes and it's like that's obviously not how life works no and so yeah there was a moment where then we all even if we had a disagreement we all banded together to be like

Who's the mole? Yeah. We don't do this. This is mm-mm. We handle our shit in the family. Thank you. Yes. Yes. Like we can have disagreements. That's fine. That's what humans do. And we come back and we're all family at the end of the day. And I think that's where a lot of those, probably in a lot of sets, it gets blown out of proportion and misconstrued because. Yeah.

You just hear one side of it. But most of the time it was all fun and funny. It's also just so silly because it's like, listen, humans are human. They have conflict. They have drama. They fall in love. They split up. People get their feelings hurt, sometimes over real things, sometimes over nothing. You know, it's...

You have to have growing pains with people. And I think they forget. Like what I always say about a set is it's sort of like an arranged marriage. You don't know any of these people. And then one day you show up and you're just married. You spend 18 hours a day together and you have to learn people's personalities, quirks, how to communicate. Everyone has different communication styles. Everyone has different backgrounds. Like it's a really wild thing to have to do and then also shoot 10 pages of dialogue a day.

Like, it's crazy, but we do it. It's a miracle if it works. It's a miracle if it works. Was it weird for you or relieving for you when it was time to wrap and move on? Were you like, oh, I am so ready to get out of here? Or were you like, wait, what do you mean we're not coming back to work on Monday? Or a little bit of both? I think it was a little bit of both, but mostly, wait, no, let's not stop this. No. Because the magic of...

showing up to Paramount to work. There was so little turnover in our crew. Yeah. That it was for the most part, the same group of people for six years. Well, we shot it for seven years, but it was six seasons. Yeah. And so that part was like the really sad part because every time you got picked up for another season and you're going to come back, you're like, Oh, I get to drive through these gates. It's such a beautiful lot. It was like romanticizing the whole Hollywood thing of it all. And yeah,

You know, like we got to sing and dance and we felt like clowns and like this is not serious and we're entertaining people. And the show turned into that thing where it was representing a lot of different people who weren't normally represented. And that felt good. And it just checked off a lot of boxes that don't normally get simultaneously checked off when you get a job like that. The other part of it was it did feel like it was time to just...

Put it to bed. I think after Corey passed, it was... The show never really recovered, I think, internally. And then I think creatively, I don't even know how the writers... The writers had to go into the writer's room and then start writing immediately. Oh my God. How do you do that? I don't know. I don't know how they did that. But I just think, you know, it's a different... It's weird going to work after that. It's weird showing up to the same places. And... Yeah.

The show just never also creatively recovered, I think, from that. And so it wasn't, didn't feel the same. It didn't feel good. It didn't, like the work. I think everybody tried their hardest. I'm not trying to shit on anybody. But I think it was, I mean, Ryan has said that. Ryan came on our podcast and said, yeah, we probably should have just stopped it. But yeah.

At the same time, it also felt like maybe this could be a cathartic thing. Yeah. I mean, how do you recover from something like that in your life, let alone having to do it in real time on camera with 200 people? That's heavy and hard. Very, very strange is an understatement. Yeah. But to your point, I mean, everything from the most fantastical sort of romance of what your career can be

to seismic loss. You guys really did all of it. You had such a wide spectrum of experience on your show. Did you and Jenna want to do a rewatch so that you could make sense of it all? Because first you launched Showmance and then now we have and that's what you really missed, which by the way, I'm obsessed with the artwork. Not to make a full pivot, but that's how my brain works. But what

Did you want to kind of have a space to process everything and get to really hold on to the good stuff?

What what what made you want to go back and do this? I know I know us girls needed to and there was a point where I was like well listen now the world knows our boss was a monster and a creep and he can't really do his the old line of like I don't know why these girls would make up these stories about me. I was like bro we haven't even told people the worst of the shit you did. You should feel thankful. I hope you never crawl out of the hole that hopefully you've crawled into but

We wanted to be able to own our own joy. We wanted to be able to say like, that wasn't his world. That was our world. Like once it, once it came to us, once the scripts were in our hands, once we were on set with our people, like that was ours. And when he came to town, it was a bummer. But like, that was, that was, that's for us. We wanted to throw out the trash and hold on to all like the good antiques. What, what was the reason for you to? We did not want to do it.

We started Showmance and then we just kept getting asked about Glee. And we're like, okay, I guess we'll do a rewatch. And we sort of half-assed it. It was pre and that's what you really missed. Showmance evolved into a Glee rewatch podcast. It was like a special project, basically. Yes. And so we did it and it was fine, but we were not really into it. And it was...

Oh, I love this. And then Naya passed away. And then we were just like, no, no, no. Immediately. We're like, yeah, we're not doing this anymore. Well, and to have it happen twice. I mean, I can't. We're like, we're done with this. We can't. We don't want to watch it. We just needed a break. And then a couple of years later, my brother-in-law who works for iHeart, he was like,

You and Jenna should think about doing, picking up the Glee rewatch podcast again. Wasn't even saying iHeart should do it. He was just saying, you guys should just do it. It was great. And I was just so resistant to it. We're both like, I just don't.

I don't think so. I don't want to. It's hard. It was hard the first time because it was the first time I had watched it since Corey. And then after Nigh, it was just like, we don't need to revisit this. Let's just not. But I don't know if something was in the air or Jenna and I were sort of like, let's just talk to them. Because I Heart then came to us.

And we're like, look, you guys can do this however you want. We think it would be great, you know, for X, Y and Z. And something in this, I don't know what it was exactly. We're like, okay, let's do this. I think we shifted in our minds how we would do it. It would be like an intentional thing. Let's talk to the crew. Let's talk to everybody who was really on it.

We talked to Ryan. Ryan wasn't involved in the first one. Ryan was like, yes, let's do it. I'll come on and do the first episode. Like, great. And he sort of

spilled everything. It ended up being two episodes. And that sort of set the precedent and gave permission for everybody to be as open as he was because if the head person is like, the filter's off and here's all the things that I think we did right, here's all the things I think we fell short on, then that permission structure is

changes for everybody and I think like what you said it was also about reclaiming the narrative because that ended up being the biggest thing for us was people were talking about a glee curse and people were talking about everyone hated each other oh the show was you know this this and that and it the weird thing that happened after Naya passed was that we all

with Ryan sort of reconnected. Everyone sort of aired their grievances with him. And he took the call. He called everybody for the most part and just sort of took it because people had, you know, issues. Sure. But that's real life. Yeah. And he's a different person. He has kids. He has this empire. Yeah. But he, his brain is a steel trap and he does not forget anything and sort of owned up to the ways in which he fell short. And he,

In his defense, I also think, you know, nobody trains you to go from being a writer to running a billion dollar business within a year. No. There's no way to know how to do that correctly. And so that coupled with like, guys, this was like such a joyful experience for us. We really did have the best time. Sure, there were hard times, especially towards the end. And like you said, after you spend that much amount of time with people,

There's going to be, especially when there's, you know, emotional strain and personal strain like that towards the end where there's going to be some shit that happens. Fine. But for the most part, on the whole, like we all had the time of our lives. Yeah. And I just felt so passionately about changing that narrative publicly because the only thing that really made me sad about when people talked about the show, criticize it all you want. The storylines, blah, blah, blah. Go for it.

But the drama was bullshit. And we were all obsessed with each other. We're all still great friends. And so, and you know, how many times have like half the cast of Glee been at your house? Because like we travel in groups and we were totally come out over when we were still shooting the show. Yeah. And so it's exactly that thing. It's like family. You said it perfectly. As you work out your shit, which is inevitable because we're all a bunch of human beings. Yeah.

in spaces together. Yeah, it's messy. Like, being a human is complicated. You can work it out in your family, but the minute anyone outside your family talks about a family member, you're like, don't you dare. And we absolutely...

had that. And I think that's also really special. I think when you love people enough, not because you have to, not because you're related, but because you are privileged enough to go on a journey together and, and you love them enough to work through the hard stuff and come out the other end better. And you get to relish in your joy. Like what, what is cooler than that?

Especially because, and you know, it's such a specific experience. And rare and weird. All of those things. Like, understatement. Like, it is, it's so weird. Yeah. And to be able to always have those people who know exactly what it felt like at that exact moment in your life.

is invaluable and if you can do whatever you can to hold on to those relationships yeah um i think it's just it's so important because it's foundational to who we are and that informs anything we do afterwards as people or professionally even getting to interview people through the podcast people who came on as guest stars or were on for you know one episode or two episodes and

we all still feel that deep connection with each other. Yeah. And I don't know if that's normal. And I don't know if that's just because the type of show it was or the way it impacted people externally, but there is a weird glee bond that we all have. And yeah. And I think it's something to really be proud of because we all fought for it. Probably didn't even realize we were, but yeah,

Again, going back to how wonderful crews are, it was, they were a real-time check on how we were doing as friends and as coworkers because they would say all the time that the way you all get along is not normal. And they're like, Penny, one of the assistant camera operators, I remember her saying to us, she's like, I think part of the magic of watching you guys

on the show is that your real life chemistry is coming through. And after she said that, and we all heard that there was no way to not see that. And now rewatching it too. It's like, oh yeah. Yeah. Do you see that? Oh, our real life chemistry is filling in a lot of holes where our reactions to people performing just the way, you know, the little glances to each other. I'm like, I don't know if that's real or if that's acting, but because you can't tell, I think that's sort of,

You know, and as the show goes on, the writers start writing for us as real people. Well, and everything gets blurry. Oh, it's very blurry. We're in season four right now and it's very blurry. Santana has just turned into Naya. And I'm like, this is just... You're like, what is happening? Yeah, but I think, you know, we all were obsessed with each other. And I think that helped the success of the show as well. Yeah. And now a word from our sponsors that I really enjoy and I think you will too.

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Do you find, I'm curious about this because, you know, different, it wasn't on a global stage, but, you know, me and some of my loved ones lost someone years ago that we loved with our entire beings. And it's a really hard thing, I think, to navigate young life loss. And one of the things I find, you know, almost a decade out of it is I love talking about my friend who passed away.

I love when people talk about him. My friends and I love when people bring up his name, like, because we still carry him. Mm-hmm. Now that you have... Not that it ever gets easier, but I do think distance allows you to be more capable of carrying, you know, big emotional weights. Like, you're talking about this thing in season four, and I watch you light up when you're like, oh, Santana just is Naya. Like, you're laughing. Yeah. Yeah.

Are you able to like really enjoy getting to be with a piece of your friend? Totally. And it feels like such a gift that we get six seasons of Corey and Naya being so talented. Yeah. I, one of the most,

I mean, it's not unexpected, but it was, you know, it's not planned for. Almost every guest we've had on who worked on the show has some personal story about how wonderful Corey was to them. Where it was like their specific interaction with Corey. Almost every single person. And...

We had no idea. When new people would come onto the show, he'd take them out to dinner and talk to them. Like doing these things as a leader, because on the show he was a leader, but in real life, I don't even think we realized what he was really doing to make people feel comfortable that were in front of the camera and behind the camera. Our tour manager just told us how, because he would be so good with fans, he would always be late to the venue to do the show and

And so she started getting coffee with him before call time to make sure he didn't get caught up in the fan stuff. And then for years after that, continued to get coffee with him back, you know, when we were back in LA and had this like wonderful special thing with him. And hearing those stories is exactly what you just said. Like, obviously, you know, with loss, it's hard, it's heavy. It's often very difficult.

challenging to even put into words how complicated that is. But hearing these wonderful positive experiences about people you love and are obsessed with, it has just been such a gift. And seeing Naya just be so good. And we used to get mad that they used to write the characters so similarly to how we were in real life. But selfishly now, I'm very thankful for it because...

I don't know what happened the past couple episodes where I am now in this rewatch, but it's just, it's full. I don't think there's any separation in the character. And it just reminds me of all these wonderful, it reminds you too. Like I could send you clips. You're like, oh yeah, I've seen Naya have that conversation with our friends. Wow. And yeah, it just, it feels like a gift and I love it. And I love talking about it because it does feel like something we can share. And it feels like,

I, the biggest fans of both of them and their abilities and how they were as human beings and as friends. And so anytime I can talk about them and spread that because we do all get that we get to carry that and tell people about it. And so it feels like a privilege to be able to do that. I love that. That's really beautiful. Makes me want to sob, but like in such a good way. Yeah, I it's it's a weird thing.

Always a weird set of emotions. I mean, there's been some episodes where we've watched. Oh, my God. There's an episode a couple months ago. I literally started bawling. I took a picture of myself and sent it to Jenna.

And Marco, who you know was here too, he just happened to be in town. He was watching too and I look over and he's like hiding his face in a pillow because they did flashbacks of Corey and Naya to like the first few episodes of Glee. And it was just like, oh no, was not prepared for this. So, you know, it is tough, but it's life. We were all so young and...

Learning how to grieve personally is horrible and hard and learning how to do it publicly is even harder and weirder. But again, it's one of those universal experiences and it's one of those experiences that we now have a vast network of friends to lean on for those things because we were all that close with each other. Wow. And you, and like you've experienced that and you also experienced

know our friends who we lost. And so it becomes just this extra level of empathy and understanding of the human experience and condition that we already share. And it's nice to know that you can sort of, you know, unfortunately empathize in those ways with people. Yeah. It's like a club no one asks to be in, but thank God you have people in it with you. And I would say that is true for loss. That's true for divorce. That's true. Like,

No matter what anybody thinks it is, they have no idea. But thank God when you've got people who have all the ideas because they're in the trenches. Yes. And you never know. It's also one of those things like you never know who's going to be able to, I don't know, like be the person to unlock something. Yes. Understanding. Like when Corey died, my brother randomly...

said something to me about like grief where he's like he's like just don't worry about how you're feeling he's like it may hit you today it may hit you in three years he's like it doesn't happen on a schedule he's like so just allow yourself to feel however you're feeling right now and don't judge yourself for it yeah and i never expected him to have he like came through with this piece of wisdom like who is this and i have gone back to that so many times and

And it's so useful and you just never know. And it's like, like, damn, yeah, this is a club I did not want to be a part of. But, you know, I guess luckily for us, there are people who are part of that club and can help guide us through it. Yeah. Yeah. I had this really surreal experience last summer when like a group of us was leaning on each other in this like, you know, tragic moment of dissolution. Like,

four friends all going through divorce at the same time. And it's like really hard when you hit the point where you're like, oh, today's the day I'm going to admit that like the thing in front of me is dead. Like it's a carcass. Like I can't keep trying to revive it. And that was happening at the same time that two of our other best friends were pregnant with their first babies.

And there were days where we'd be like, whoa, let's get the Divorce Girl Club and the First Time Mom Club together to sort of be like, what's happening on your island? Right. You know, and it's like, it's a trip, but you need people in your life that are going through the same thing that you're going through. And that doesn't mean any of your other wonderful friends aren't capable of being there for you. It means you need a person who can go, ah, you too. Yeah.

Whether it's good, bad, ugly, whatever. And I think like, I don't know, I think grief is like that on obviously one of the harder sides. I think when we talk about, you know, as you mentioned earlier, like some of the ways we bonded over our first shows, it's really fucking rare and weird to have your first show turn into like a hit show. Yeah. And it was so, you know, me and my castmates are like, man, we went through this thing together that was so wild. Yeah.

But it was also so helpful for me when we became friends to be like, how are you guys doing this part? How are you navigating this? Like, how are you dealing with, you know, the fact that some tabloid had their story meeting on a Tuesday and has like made up something about your life? Like, it's crazy. But it is this really...

special thing. And so I'm going to ask you this, even though sometimes it used to drive me crazy when people ask this. Interestingly, the silver lining of our podcast is that

it sort of changed my answer. Now when people are like, "Would you ever want to take a trip back to Tree Hill as an actor?" Now I'm like, "Honestly, maybe. I would love to see Brooke Davis running the town or something." Yeah. That could be cool. From this vantage point, now that you guys have reclaimed it, you own it, you're having such a good time with, and that's what you really missed, are you ever like,

I'd go back. Like, I could be the choir director now. Like, or does it feel like it's done for you? Oh, that's complicated. That's okay. By the way, you can just say that if you don't want to expand on it. I think if we didn't think too deeply about it in terms of how it would work. Don't go there. That'll make you crazy. Yeah, absolutely. Time of my life. I think we would all have such a great time.

I think all the crew would come back. Like, I think it would be because they're all still in Ryan Murphy world. Like, I think it would be a great time. And absolutely. Yeah. Oh my God. I love it. And now for our sponsors.

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I also, not that this relates to what you're saying, but I love that we're so far over time. I'm a third of the way through my questions for you. It's fine. I knew this was going to happen. So I'm going to horseshoe us around to the activism part because you have been doing so much good work for so long. This year, you won the Human Rights Campaign Visibility Award this year. How silly. That's wild. No, it's not silly. It's beautiful. And

And I get as a person who, you know, deals with how much or how little of your life to share, not necessarily knowing how to do it. I have had the good fortune of knowing Austin. I mean, since you guys have been together, but you didn't really publicly address your relationship until 2018. I think people were all, they all got it. It's like, you know, Tobin and press finally confirmed they've been together for eight years and the whole world was like, yeah, we know. Um, duh. Like, yeah,

But it's complicated, I think, to figure out, like, are you going to let people in or not? I find that the only reason I ever have is because it's been sort of done for me. And then, like, what am I going to do? I'm a human being. I want to go out and, like, be in the world. Yeah. What...

How do you decide? You know, I know you said when you were wanting to be the weatherman in Tornado Alley, you were like a closeted little gay kid. But like, how do you decide when you want to do this? How did Ariana Grande fit into the picture? Like, how do you say now's my moment to go out and be visible, as the HRC award says, in the world? To your point, yeah.

I wanted to just, I got to the point where I wanted to just live my life. And if I was seen in public, not have to explain anything. Yeah. But I was in a relationship. And so for me, it was about, I felt beyond ready. You know, I was like, I, we can do this because I would like to be able to like talk about you. I would like to be able to just be out.

at a bar or a club and kiss you and not have to worry about if anybody's watching and whatever. Yeah. And so one day I was just like, are you cool with this? Like if I post something or say something and he was like, I don't give a, I'm like, all right. It's time. Well, I didn't, and I didn't do it then. There wasn't like a conscious, it was sort of, let me just, I just wanted to know that if something did happen, if it did come up, because we, so we met when we worked,

on a miniseries together. And he, in press for that show, he got asked a really sort of tasteless question by someone about like, so like who was hooking up with who, like trying to like dig. Because there was a lot of these young, a lot of like closeted people on the show. And so like, you're only asking that question if you're trying to sort of out someone. You're trying to out someone, that's gross. And so in that moment, I knew I was going to have a

an interview with that guy the next day or something. And so I talked with my manager and my agent was like, look, this may come up. What do you think I should do? And they're like, you say whatever you want. We would never tell you not to say something. I was like, oh, God, this is on me. Tell me what to do. Yeah. But it made me face it for the first time, because I think growing up, I just assumed that that would never happen. There would never be an option.

I would always be closeted. And I somehow, I think, romanticized it or fetishized it in a way where I was okay with it. You find a coping mechanism wherever you find it. Yes. And I think that, and I didn't realize it was a coping mechanism until one of the producers of Glee at some point was like, I think this is what you're doing. I was like, oh no, you're completely right. And having been on such a,

joyous show about queer expression and acceptance. It was also weird that I never did it, but I think I had seen how Chris Colfer was treated and was scared of that. I sort of got to live my life and in private and I had a boyfriend and it was great and nobody knew. And, you know, so I was taking advantage of, I was playing a straight character. Nobody even questioned it. He didn't really have a choice and I got away with it.

And I think at some point being in my mid to late 20s, I was like, get like, what am I doing? Yeah. I need to be able to live my life and I don't care. And I don't. Yeah. I'm not worried if it's going to take away from work opportunities. And if it is, who cares? Like, I don't. Like, OK. Yeah. So something just I think maybe having that success young, it made me feel like

I know this probably sounds so stupid but it made me feel more secure in myself in a way of being like, well, f*ck it. I don't need you to give me a job then. I've had the success. And so, I'm not worried about it taking away opportunities because that was I think really the only reason why I didn't say anything sooner. But then Ariana Grande put out a new song and I just made a joke. That wasn't even like my intention.

I didn't think people were going to infer that from that tweet. Wow. All I said was that the song was gayer than me. You know, like that'd be a normal joke we'd make. Like I just thought, I thought it was funny. But again, that's, that's you being a whole person, not this sort of small percentage that the world perceives you as, which is what happens when you live a public life. Like it was so weird for me finally leaving something that like just proved to really not be good for me.

and like finding this really unexpected joy and then having, having it be treated like fodder where I was also like, have you guys like not been paying attention? I literally always said I would never, I don't play characters. I don't represent like how many women have you seen me hook up with her on camera? Like, by the way, Ryan Murphy's first ever TV show was my first arc on TV. And Kate Morrow was my girlfriend. Like, hello.

I mean, there's something about your house. There's something gay about my house. Something deeply bisexual about my house. There's something deeply bisexual about your house. I don't know what it is. Who knows? But yeah, it was so funny to me. But I also had to learn. Similarly to what you're saying, like, I almost had it in reverse where...

And obviously in the 20 years I've been like in these sort of activist spaces, I've had to learn a lot about all the internalized fill in the blanks, misogyny, homophobia, whatever.

And for me, I understand now why in my 20s, some elder gays in my life who I deeply respect and adore were like, oh, honey, you're a girl and like you can be a little fluid, but girls are just more experimental. Like you're not really bi. And I got this whole thing about like, you know, great that you've been going to the pride marches since you were six and we love you as an ally, but like,

also the community's under enough threat and like you're a very privileged, privileged like white girl on TV. You don't really need to take up space here. And I was like, got it. Allyship is my jam. And eventually I was like, I kind of think that like,

you know, when people say if there's like smoke, there's fire. I'm like, I sort of think that like this many, um, experiences and very real feelings in my own body tells me more about who I am than like anybody else. Um, but you know, the running joke for many years being like, as soon as Dua Lipa asks me on a date, like I'm out. Um, I was like, turns out not, not my type. Um, I have a very different type and she's great. I,

I love the two of you. Seeing you two together makes me so happy. Also, she's the best person I know. Truly the best person I know. When I want to snap and I can feel the Brooke Davis in me wanting to be outlandish, she reminds me to be soft and gentle and kind and to take the high road. Everyone thinks I'm the Michelle Obama and she's the wild one. I'm like, absolutely not. I'm out of my fucking

in mind and she's like a sweet teddy bear she just has tattoos and people are very prejudicial with stereotypes like the the first time you introduced you introduced me to her you were i've never seen you so giddy

ever. And like just the biggest grin on your face like that. It feels really nice to be happy. Yes. And you were just like telling me about things and I was like, I could not be happier for you both. Well, we're both obsessed with you. I mean, anytime I see you guys, I'm like, I got to leave my friends over here. I got to go see my friends. Bye. Yeah. And like doing all the things that we get to do together in the world, like

It's really fun for me when I see some of my favorite people, not just, you know, at a house party or Friendsgiving, but like at the White House out there doing good work. Yeah. And like, it feels nice to be in a moment where, as you said, you could just be yourself. I feel like I get to be more myself. Everyone I know who really finds joy, no matter how long it takes, who finally learns to choose themselves and their own happiness, like,

What a gift, because you teach people by being. And so I guess like when we look at this whole landscape, you know, things we're revisiting, healing we're doing, reclaiming we're doing, all the joy we've got, like being loved, being embodied, all the things like as you look out, obviously you and I are working on the election, duh, we know that. But when you look at the year ahead of you, what feels like your work in progress? Oh, God.

Okay, beyond the election? Okay, that's response un. What about what's next? What's next is I have such a good group of creative friends and people around me that I love and respect. And we have so many ideas of things we want to do and get made. And some of them we think will help make the world a better place. And so it's about...

actually following through on some of those things and not just talking about them in theory and actually let's figure out how to do this. And I think that would be just, it's so fun because also just getting to put people together, almost producing the situation. So I want this person to work with this person and like, let's figure out how that's going to work. And I just want to do a lot of that and figure out how to make these sort of dreams and wishes come true.

actually happen. Me too. Count me in. I'm ready to go. Sign me up. All the things. Okay. Great. Cool. So we have a plan. God, we can have this chat. Okay, great. I can't wait to announce our next project to the world. All right. I love you. Go. Thank you so much. Wait, I have a confession. What? I don't know if you remember this. I remember this the other day. I was talking with my brother. So you were having one of your parties and I brought my brother

Which I had never done. Like Friendsgiving party or St. Patrick's party? No, it was... Or just random house... I think it was like one of the music nights. Oh, a living room show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. And it was a bigger one. Because they started off pretty small and then they... Yeah, they started to really grow. Yeah. Ed Sheeran was at your house. And I was like, that's new. I remember walking in, I'm like, he's very famous. And we were on the balcony upstairs. And my brother...

So what I thought happened was my brother put his beer on the banister and then turned and knocked it down and it fell where Ed Sheeran was standing not 20 seconds before. Oh my God. So you almost killed Ed Sheeran. I blamed my brother. I was like, my brother, I bring my brother one time to your house and he almost kills the biggest artist in the world.

But I realized it was me. It was you. He put the beer stupidly on the banister. Well, sure, not a great call with glass, but fine. And then I turned and knocked it over and it went like...

flipping down to the bottom and splattered and i just remember looking over because i had looked down right before and ed sheeran was right there and then you come running out and you look up and i was like oh my god i'm so sorry like in the middle of your party i almost just kill you

Ed Sheeran. Listen, nobody needed stitches and I'm very obsessive compulsive. So I have like a dustbin and a little thing. You did. You were out there in seconds with the dustbin. I've got them all over the place. Yeah, it was very impressive, but I felt horrified. I just need to get that off my chest. Okay. Do you want to publicly apologize to Ed Sheeran or do we feel like we've done it?

I'm sorry Ed Sheeran for almost killing you. We never even met. I just almost severely injured him. Clearly he needs to join you for an episode of the podcast. Or maybe he should just avoid me. What if Ed Sheeran is a massive Glee fan? Well, okay. Hey internet, help us figure it out. Yeah, because I need to personally apologize. I don't even think he, I don't know if he realized how close he was to a beer bottle smashing on his head from the second story. Touched by an angel, I guess.

he really moved just in time i will never get over it anyway i feel much better having because i was literally giving my brother for it the other day i'm like remember when i brought you to soph's house and you almost killed ed sheeran he's like is that right he's like you did that and then we reconstructed it was like yeah that was me oh my god well look at this that's what they call growth just like owning your mistakes moving on right my bad ed

Mr. Sheeran. And Sheeran, we're glad you're still with us. Yeah. Please keep making beautiful songs with that beautiful soldiery voice. New music soon? Please. Please? Thank you for coming. Go do your other job. I love you. Okay. Tell Jenna I said hi. Bye, everyone. BioSense is a clean science skincare brand. All formulas are ultra-hydrating, formulated for sensitive skin, vegan, and for all skin types. Okay.

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Work in Progress: Kevin McHale

Drama Queens

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PodQuest PodQuest Podcast Discovery Engine

Work in Progress: Kevin McHale 01:26:57 Share

Drama Queens

Chapters

Shownotes Transcript

PodQuest PodQuest Podcast Discovery Engine

Work in Progress: Kevin McHale