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Hey friends, how's it going? Welcome back to the Deep Dive podcast. We are kicking off season two. It's very exciting. We've revamped our studio a little bit. So if you watch season one of the podcast and listen to it, you would have seen kind of the evolution of the studio over time. Anyway, without further ado, let me introduce this podcast episode, which is with Dr. Julie Smith, who has written this fantastic book.
Why has nobody told me this before? Julie is a clinical psychologist who has over 3 million followers on TikTok and various other social media platforms. And she shares tips about maximizing our mental health and understanding our minds and our brains and how psychology works and that cool stuff like that, that helps us live
healthier, happier, more productive lives. And in the conversation, we talk a little bit about her success as a creator. How did she go from this kind of having a very normal health carey type job of being a clinical psychologist to then randomly deciding, you know what, let me stop posting videos on TikTok. We talked about kind of the feelings behind there, the cringe response and like how she got over the fear and how...
through that decision that she made about two years ago now, she has managed to inspire millions of people and educate people about their mental health in a really cool way. And we also talk about some of the concepts that she talks about in the book, like things like motivation and fear and grief and self-doubt and all these other psychological issues that
plague us on a daily basis. And then towards the end of the podcast, we also talk about the idea of living a meaningful life. And that's a topic that I've been thinking a lot about. And I know Julie's thought about it a lot. And we talk about some of the psychological research that's gone into this idea of living a meaningful life. So yeah, hopefully you'll enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Let's go for it. All right. So Julie, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing? Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here, actually. Yeah, it should be interesting. You're a clinical psychologist. Yeah. What is a clinical psychologist like?
What do you do? Sure. So a clinical psychologist works in... Well, we can work in sort of brain injury and things like that, but I worked in mental health. So I was providing assessments and psychological therapies to...
you know, in all different kinds of services. So I worked in a service that was purely for Ministry of Defence for a while, doing sort of trauma work and things with veterans. I worked in inpatient and sort of intensive care wards or in crisis teams in the community. So lots of different sort of mental health services offering, you know, either very intense support or longer psychological therapies. Okay.
And so what sort of problems were you seeing on a daily basis? In the NHS, the sort of more severe and enduring end of those problems, you know, all sorts of mental health problems. But once I worked in, I started a small private practice. It was just by myself. And that was more people who were sort of functioning on a day-to-day basis, working, you know, that sort of thing, but struggling with mental
maybe you know grief or burnout or you know all those sorts of things that that happen more day to day okay um so what's the difference between that and like what a therapist does
Or is it the same thing? So it's a difference in training. So somebody might become a therapist after being maybe a mental health nurse and then they might train in certain therapies for example or do a counselling course. Whereas with clinical psychology you start off doing a psychology degree and then you work in mental health for a few years and get your experience, do some research, that kind of thing. And then you train and you do your doctorate.
then it's purely in psychological therapies and assessment and those sorts of things. So it's a training difference, really. So you have to have a PhD to be a clinical psychologist? Yeah. Damn. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so you spend a few too many years studying, which you're used to, right? But yeah, so you can train in sort of one or two therapies or as a counsellor from any profession. Okay. But yeah, it's sort of purely...
therapies. So is it, I know so little about psychological therapy. It's the sort of stuff that kind of we refer people to clinical psychologists, but I have absolutely no idea what they do. So apologies if this seems like a dumb question, but is it that like you train in like
like 10 different therapies and then you kind of pick the one that's appropriate for the patient. Like how, how does it, how does the training work? Yeah, that's probably the difference you'll find if you, if you sort of choose a clinical psychologist over a different therapist is they might be specialized in one specific area. Whereas in the, in the clinical training you get your, your,
you're trained in lots of different therapies, depending on which university you go to and stuff like that. And then you're equipped with those tools so you can, you know, interchange, you know, use different therapies for different problems. And yeah. What is a therapy? Like how have they come up with like the different therapies? So they've all come from different areas.
different areas of research, you know, and there'll be, you know, sort of your behavioral era where, you know, it was all about sort of learning theory and then you've got sort of other areas of research that looked at the impact of, you know, your thought processes and some other bits of research combined those together and created this thing called CBT that everyone sort of has heard about. And really those kind of therapies are about the link between
your thoughts, your behaviors, your physical state and how you feel. And that you can't wake up in the morning and just decide, right today I want to feel love and joy. You know, you can't just sort of directly make them happen. But we know that what you feel is so heavily influenced by those other aspects of your experience. So, the focus of your attention, what you're doing or not doing, your physical state, those sorts of things. So, we can use those to then influence how you feel on a day-to-day basis. So,
That's the sort of one therapy. And there are others that are based on research around, you know, early life attachment and then adult attachment or relationships and those sorts of things. So, you know, they all have sort of branched out to different areas of research and can be used for different problems. But often people come along with a whole collection of problems. You know, it's not sort of one specific thing. Probably similar in medicine, isn't it? People come with a whole collection of things going on and they all need sort of tackling with different tools. So,
So you have like this arsenal of tools and you sort of pick the appropriate one and because you've got enough of a grounding in like the main ones, you can sort of carve your own path through that that's going to help the patient or the client or whatever you call it.
scientific is therapy? Well, everything, you know, through my doctorate, everything that we learnt or used had to be evidence-based. So, you know, we were learnt to kind of scrutinise the research and justify everything that we were doing based on, you know, research that had been done or when we were doing our own research and things like that. So, yeah, I mean, I think there is, maybe it's the sort of, you know,
the sort of wellbeing industry that has maybe sort of muddied the waters for people a little bit, where there's this then lack of trust because people aren't really sure, like you say, what is the difference between a psychologist or a counselor or another therapist? Or, you know, there is this sort of
people don't necessarily know because they're not told what the difference is and who to trust or what qualifications to look for and those sorts of things. So there's a real issue there that perhaps could help people when they're looking for help. 'Cause I often get people asking me those questions. I've got this problem or my son or daughter has these problems. Where do we go? Who do we look for? What sort of therapy are we looking for? - I signed up to the School of Life's therapy program a few months ago just for the bants.
And I mentioned this to my mom. So my mom's a psychiatrist. And she was like, there's no such thing as therapy just for the bands. Like, what are you doing? She was like, well, you know, when you go for therapy, you have a specific problem that you want a solution to. And then you want to find out what techniques the therapist is using, what form of therapy is it. Are they using this or this or that? And I was like, look, man, I don't know. My boy, Alain de Botton, says that everyone should get therapy. And so I'm just...
I'm just going to try it and see what happens. Where do you stand on the spectrum of like therapies for specific targeted problems versus everyone can benefit from therapy? Well, you know, yeah, there is a, there is an argument for, you know, a problem with a specific, you know, targeted set of tools and all that kind of thing. But actually, yeah,
There's also a lot to be said for building self-awareness and self-reflection and and when we don't do a lot of that and we don't build up those skills to Look back on things reflect on things learn from experiences and use them as moving forward Then we're missing a lot of opportunity for development and growth and sort of self-awareness So, you know often people go to therapy when they don't feel there's any other choice, you know, they they just they get to
sort of rock bottom or, you know, hit an end point and think, well, I need to work this out now. But it's much harder to dig yourself out of a huge hole than, you know, crawl out of a ditch, isn't it? So it's a sort of, you know, I think go for it. Okay. Interesting. Yeah, because my view of this was always that, like, even if I have nothing wrong, like, right now that I don't know of, at least let's just get a little, like, vibe check. Kind of like...
I don't know, prevention rather than cure. Yeah, you can only benefit from anything you learn from it. And how are you finding it so far? Is it interesting? So I did like three or four sessions. And in each of those, she was like, okay, so what are we talking about today? I was like, well, you know, there's things on my mind. We kind of talked about it. And after about three or four sessions, I found that like for the subsequent one or two, I was really scraping the bottom of the barrel to figure out what to talk about. And so we ended up stopping the sessions because she was like, well, maybe, you know, you had these things and we've solved them. And so there's no need to keep it going.
So I'm not really sure. Yeah. Does that vibe with your experience? Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, isn't it? Sometimes when you're sort of not sure what to talk about, you often think you're sort of looking for a problem. There has to be a problem you're talking about rather than any form of introspection at all or, you know, sarcasm.
sort of learning about an experience or anything like that. So it's just interesting to be able to, and nice that you can go back to it knowing that you don't need to feel that you're really stuck with a problem before you just look at something and learn from it. Yeah. Yeah. I kind of thought a bit like, so we've got a bunch of business coaches that are helping with like the operations and stuff for the business. And,
I just rock up once a week and they're like, "All right, so what's on your mind?" "Well, we're having kind of this issue with like a team member." And then just sort of talking through it with someone is just like enormously helpful. And so therapy kind of felt like a business coach, but for life. - Yeah. - Lots of us go through life with a bit of a love-hate relationship with STEM subjects. In theory, the idea of learning how the world works in science and learning how to build websites with computer science is really awesome.
But when you're plotting your way through formulas in a science class or trying to understand code, it can be a bit dry and boring. The way I like to learn more about this stuff in a fun and engaging way is with Brilliant, who are kindly sponsoring this episode. Brilliant have a ton of courses that teach maths, science and computer science with visual examples and interactive challenges along the way so that you can learn by doing. One of my favorite courses in Brilliant is actually the computer science series, especially the introduction to algorithms and the fundamentals of programming with
I was actually considering applying for computer science rather than medicine at university. And I ended up going down the medicine route, which I don't regret, but I never really understood computer science. And although I knew how to code, I didn't really understand the foundational algorithms and structures behind the field of computer science.
So I really enjoyed checking out Brilliant's courses on that. And also their course on cryptocurrency is absolutely sick. And without that course, I really would not have understood how Bitcoin, for example, works. Anyway, if you want to improve your math science and computer science, then head over to brilliant.org/deepdive and the first 200 people to sign up via that link will get 20% off the annual subscription to Brilliant. So thank you very much Brilliant for sponsoring this video. So you're working as a clinical psychologist in the NHS and for the Ministry of Defence, and then you started a private practice. And now you have 3 million followers on TikTok.
How did we get from private practice as a clinic psychologist to 3 million followers on TikTok? What was the story? Sure. So once I had three children, I realized I couldn't do it all well. I was doing part-time NHS, part-time private, and I just couldn't manage it all. So I thought I could see a few private clients during school hours and manage it really nicely around the children. So I sort of moved into that private work. And then during that time, I had all these people coming along
And a significant portion of some therapies is quite educational. So you teach people a bit about how the mind works, how they can influence their mood and emotions and energy levels or relationships and how they can work out what cycles they're stuck in and that sort of thing. And a lot of people I found once they had that education,
they were raring to go. They were empowered by it. And there was a lot of, you know, that's why the title of the book is, Why Has Nobody Told Me This Before? Because so many people were saying certain versions of that in terms of, you know, how did I not learn this at school? It's not rocket science, but it's really made a difference to my life. So,
yeah it was you know all of these people were coming along finding that stuff really helpful and then I was sort of harping onto my poor husband saying how is this not available you know why do people have to pay to come and see me to find out because it's not therapy skills it's life skills it's stuff we could all use and stuff that I use to stay well as well so it you know it's I was sort of
talking about it to him and then he said well okay make it available do it you know put a video on youtube or something and um and so we did we started to kind of make a couple of really cringy videos where i was sort of you know trying to be educational and um and at the same time my husband discovered tiktok and we were instantly addicted to it it was really fun and there was lots of dancing and comedy and um and he said well you know try and
say something in 60 seconds and put it on there and my initial thought was no I will get trolled out of there for sure but anyway long story short is we had a go with the idea that at any point we can delete this and just forget it have happened and but very very quickly within a couple of weeks I think it was it just started to kind of blow up and that was November 2019
So it was a couple of months before the lockdowns started to happen and stuff. The whole account was set up with the idea of being useful and putting some value in there. I didn't really have any interest of being a public person in any way or that sort of thing. So my idea was every video has to have some sort of value to it at some point that could be shared. And the fact that people clicked follow on an account that was purely about mental health education...
says a lot about what people need to hear and what people are looking for I think and the stuff that's just not you know as readily available or perhaps there is lots of information out there but there's also lots of misinformation out there so people wanted to know that what
what they were hearing was valid or research-based and stuff like that. So yeah, it started to kind of blow up very quickly. - I wonder if we can just sort of zoom into that moment when you decided that you're gonna get over the cringe and make that YouTube video and make that TikTok. What was that experience like?
Yeah, do you know, it was okay. I hated the sound of my own voice. So when I would sort of listen back to them and stuff, some of them I just handed over to my husband, Matt, and said, just press the button and I'll sort of look this way. And then, you know, just didn't ever want to see it again. But probably that's one of my methods, actually, is just don't watch it back too much because then you just become critical and you want to make the perfect video. And actually, it's better off just saying,
I know it's not perfect. I might not look or sound perfect, but it's a useful message. So put it out there just in case. And then what you do is you get back these messages from people saying, well, thank you. That really changed my day or I'm using this with my son or daughter and it's really helping. Thank you. And then you think, well, yeah, it's OK to put a non-perfect video out there if you're being valuable to someone. So that's sort of allowed me to.
- Yeah. And that kind of reminds me of the stuff you talk about in motivation in the book, I think it's maybe chapter two, where you say that it's really about like those small steps and getting that feedback and then that sustains the motivation.
Yeah. I guess that kind of played into what kept you going in the early days. Yeah. And in the book, I talk about that sort of need for intrinsic motivation. You know, that sort of, we don't need, you know, they always give stickers to kids now, don't they, at schools and stuff like that. You know, we don't need a sticker or a trophy along the way. We need something inside of us that says, yes,
you're on the right track, you're doing the right thing. And for me, it was that feeling that I get from feedback from real people saying, I used it and it was helpful to me, thank you. And then there's that realization of, I can sit in one room with one person at a time and try and be helpful, but when you can get 100 messages back in a day that say, thank you, that was really helpful, then...
wow you know what an opportunity to reach all those people were you worried at all about your professional standing yeah started like yeah what was that like this is the thing that all doctors worry about as well so I guess it's the same yeah it's something I can ask you as well actually because that was probably the main thing in my mind was oh what if someone I used to work with sees this and what will they think of me and and that sort of thing and and
you know, somehow I managed to just do it anyway. But, and actually the feedback I've got from, from old colleagues and staff has been really positive, you know, sort of colleagues who are, you know, GPs and stuff like that, who say that they, you know, mention the channel when people are struggling. And I think, gosh, that, that's,
That's the compliment you want, isn't it? Is when people are willing to share your stuff because they see it as valuable too. So that's a sort of seal of approval. But there is just this moment of almost free fall, isn't it? Where you think, I'm going to do it anyway and see what happens and risk disapproval. But I think I always had to stick to
that sense that I'm doing it because I believe this could be a useful thing for people. I know there's this stuff that people could have access to and we could make it valuable for people. So I had to just sort of stick to my guns, try and maintain a sense of credibility all the way along and not just say anything, you know, do my research and make sure that things were grounded and
and evidence-based and stuff like that. So that I believed in it. Yeah, I think that's really, it's sort of like the whole Simon Sinek stuff, the whole start with why thing. Like when you have that core why behind what you're doing, it's not that you're trying to get famous. It's not that you're trying to become a TikTok celebrity. It's that you're trying to educate people on something that's genuinely useful. I guess that is,
you know, that's the intrinsic motivation rather than the extrinsic, oh, I want to hit a million followers and stuff like that. Yeah. And it's difficult because it grabs you, doesn't it? And these platforms are made to be addictive for creators as well as users. So there is a sense of, oh, how many views did we get there? Or how many views did we get there? But always being able to pull it back to why did I make that video? And actually I've noticed that if I make a video that I'm particularly pleased with because it's valuable information I want to share,
I care a bit less about how many views it gets because I think if that video helps 10 people but only gets seen by 10,000, then that's worth it for me. But if another video I make is not so valuable but I'm doing it to try and get views, then it's got less of a reward for me if I start to go down that road. Yeah, it's exactly the same on the YouTube video thing.
Every creator I've ever spoken to has this constant struggle between caring about the numbers while simultaneously not caring about the numbers How do you how do you tell that line? I just think it's a tightrope isn't it? You always have to just Do a bit of a sort of mental check-in every now and then Because I can tell if I start to go down that road. I mean My husband is really that kind of side of it So he'll look at numbers and say all this didn't do well all that did well and things like that but I feel that if I get
too into that, then it's not good because it really stumps creativity and my ability to think from the word go about what am I gonna put together to make a video with? If I'm only thinking about views,
it's just so much harder to do the whole thing. But I mean, that's where I found your channel so helpful and such an inspiration really was because you were sort of putting so much value into each video. You know, when you kind of do book reviews and things like that, you just sort of openly like you can give everything, just talk about it all and what was useful and what was not useful and those kind of things. And that's really sort of where
I like to come from is just, you know, just give the value and then we'll try to sew it up as something that is vaguely entertaining afterwards. Yeah. Yeah, like, so I've, I had a bit of a crisis a couple of months ago where, you know,
we put out a video on the channel and had to delete it because it was just like 50% dislikes, loads of comments being like, this is like really just genuinely bad content. And it kind of led me on this sort of journey of introspection of realizing that I'd gone too far in the direction of, you know, I preach consistency and like, hey, one video a week for many, many years. And I'd still been clinging, four and a half years later, I'd been clinging onto this idea that I have to put out two videos every single week. And we need to put that video out there because there's a sponsor deadline.
And eventually that got us to the point where I was like, oh, you know, really scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of video content ideas and genuinely putting stuff out for the sake of it rather than because it was valuable. And so I was like, okay, let's just take a step back and really examine this assumption. Why do I feel the need to actually put out two videos a week?
And then I decided, you know what, let's now not be beholden to any upload schedule and only put out a video if I think it's actually good or if I think people will like it in some capacity. Like I know you've done a few videos that are more about like you rather than about like the educational side, which go down really well because people then start to care about you as a person.
And so in the last couple of months, we've actually not published that many videos, but the channel is growing faster than ever before because the only ones we've been putting out are the ones that I've internally felt. I'm actually proud of this video. I think this is genuinely good. And to your point, like when I hit publish on a video that I feel is genuinely good, I don't care about the numbers anymore because it's like, this is actually a sick video. Like if people like it, great. If they don't, that's totally fine. I think it's great. And that's so refreshing to hear that someone, you know, with as many followers as you and that, you know, this huge channel,
can also put out a video and go, oh gosh, it's performing really badly, you know, take it off. So, I mean, it's so human then, isn't it? To say it happens to everybody. And, you know, because I've done the same where we put a video out and we think, oh, actually, no, this is not going down well. Or, you know, just it's not quite right. We got it wrong somehow. And it's okay to do that. You know, I like this idea of,
not putting across this sort of I think that's something that can happen as well being a psychologist people think you must have it all sorted you must just you know be motivated all the time or you must um you know never have a problem or you know never have anything you don't feel you can deal with and actually that's the sort of side of social media that I try to steer back from and I'm a human being and
it's really important to sort of show people that we all make mistakes or we all struggle sometimes and it's all right because we're all human and, you know, number of followers or anything doesn't make any difference really. Nice. Speaking of number of followers, so you started about two years ago, November 2019. Yeah. And we're now at 3 million. So what was the growth trajectory like?
So it started to grow really fast. I think there was a point that in sort of the early first couple of months, we were going about sort of anything up to sort of 100,000 a month. And then in lockdown, I think the biggest month when everybody, you know, locked down and switched on TikTok was a sort of, I think our biggest, and we put out a sort of really big viral video. And I think we had about quarter of a million in a month, but that was a sort of one-off. And then it sort of steadied out and, and yeah.
And we just sort of tipped over 3 million a couple of weeks ago, I think it was. So it's been steady going. And then also sort of branching out to other platforms and places like Instagram where you can really sort of engage your followers and be in your stories and stuff like that. But also I think the
the 60 second videos or the 15 second videos are great for grabbing people's attention. But there was a part of me as well that wanted to be really valuable and give all that detail. And that's really what the book is about is, is giving all those extra details about, okay, well, if there is this concept that can help, how do you do it? Here's step one, here's step two, here's that theory behind it. And here's the research that's based in. So that's really where the book came in about giving all of that detail so that people could go to it as a resource.
And structured in terms of problems as well, you know, that you don't, especially when you're struggling, you don't want to read a book cover to cover. You want to be able to go to the bit you find helpful or the problem you're dealing with
and work it out straight away. So I tried to sort of structure it like that as well. So it's just a real resource for people. Yeah. No, I really liked that approach to it. Like I looked at the table of contents and I went straight to meaningful life because I was like, Ooh, this is currently the problem where it's like motivation. We like sorted that years ago. Let's go on to the meaningful life stuff. Towards the end of the book, you've got a whole section called on a meaningful life. People have been trying to answer this question for like millennia. So what, what's the kind of psychology research scientific take on this?
How do we live a meaningful life? Sure. So a lot of the stuff from that section is taken from, I really like using acceptance and commitment therapy, ACT, which has a whole sort of part of that therapy is around understanding your own values and what gives you meaning and purpose in life. And yeah, so I've devoted a whole section to it because I think it's so, so important. And I also think it's important to understand
not just do it once but to keep doing sort of little values check-ins where you you just step back get a bit of a bird's eye view on what's going on in your life at this point what matters most to you at this point because it changes right you know what was important to you at 21 might not be the same things that are important to you at 31. so your values change as you go along but the way um that we set out in therapy is is that a value is like
path that you follow your whole life. There is no end to it, but you just you value that path so you want to stay close to it as much as you can. So a goal is something you once you've done it, you've done it, it's finished. So your goal might be to do a marathon, but your value might be to stay fit and healthy.
And so the marathon becomes one of many possible goals along the way, but your value is to continue to be fit and healthy along the way. So that's the path, is fitness and health. And then there can be lots of hurdles and lots of goals along the way.
But at times, life steers you away from those. So, you know, you might, life happens and maybe your job is very intense or you have children or whatever it is, and it might steer you away from that path. And so that's why I think it's so important to do these regular sort of values check-ins where you go, oh, I'm not feeling quite right. And actually, lots of people come to therapy with that sort of sense of,
I'm not really sure what the problem is. I just, I'm feeling a bit lost or a bit, you know, life feels a bit meaningless at the moment. And often that's because people have lost touch with what's most important to them or life has steered them away from things that matter to them. And so just getting clarity on what does matter to me, what is the most important thing or things in my life at the moment and what kind of person do I want to be in those areas of my life?
which then allows you to set goals based on the life that you want to have or the person that you want to be. How do you go about figuring out your values?
So there are lots of kind of little exercises you can do. Sometimes you can literally just grab a piece of paper, separate it into little boxes and you might have boxes for family life or lifelong learning or health or creativity. So you can kind of fill those boxes with the different aspects of your life and then in each box kind of ask yourself, what kind of person do I want to be in this area of my life? So maybe it's family relationships.
what kind of son do I want to be to my mum? What kind of, or my dad, and you know, what kind of relationship do I want to have? What do I want to represent to those people? How would that show up in terms of behaviour and action, you know, daily behaviour? And then you just kind of fill it with words or bullet points and that gives you this, this,
picture of what life would be like if you were living in line with all of those values. And sometimes they pull on each other, so sometimes they conflict. You might have this real idea of being a successful entrepreneur, but actually that sucks all of your time and you also want to be a family guy and you want to spend time with your kids. And so often there's this idea, this balancing act where, okay, life has pulled me in one direction and I want to pull it back this way. So it's not about
setting goals and doing them perfectly, it's about always just tipping the balance. You know, I haven't been working out for a while because I've been so focused on work. So I know I'm going to just kind of come back in this direction a little bit more and balance things out. So it's really just getting clarity.
But it's also not focusing on what happens to you. So it's not saying this is what I want in my life because then things can happen and then you think, oh, failed. It hasn't worked out. It's really not about what happens to you. It's about how you want to be in the face of all the stuff that life throws at us. How do I want to respond when
when hard stuff happens, how do I want to respond when I'm in a good place and stuff like that. Yeah, as you were saying this, I was like, damn, these are some really good questions. I should sit down and answer some of these. So is that like, so in one of the early drafts of my book proposal, the first chapter was going to be about like values and like meaning and stuff.
And after doing a bunch of stuff and like reading an ACT textbook and things, I realized, okay, let me leave this aside for now. Maybe this is book three or four or five, 10 years down the line when,
20 or 30 years down the line when I have more experience. Let's stick to the thing that I actually can feasibly talk about, which is like productivity and fun and stuff. And so I came across a bunch of these sort of value finding exercises. So I've kind of figured out what some of my values are, I think. But knowing that and then actually using it to change a decision that I would have made otherwise, I haven't really done much of that. Like how...
Let's say someone does these journaling prompts and figures out, okay, I want to be the sort of son that does X, Y, Z. I want to be the sort of parent that does X, Y, Z. How do you translate that into physical, like actual action? Yeah, that's where, you know, the therapy stuff can be really helpful because it's a protected time in the week where you are going to reflect on those values and the things that you want to work on.
So they're not necessarily a big problem, but it's in a direction you want to steer to. And so it becomes this place where you're accountable to that and you go and reflect on in hindsight. And that's where it all begins is looking back on things. So you think, okay, here's my map of all these different values I have and the things that are important to me. How am I living in line with them? And how have I been living in line with them in the last two weeks? Or have I? And
When when you look back and you think gosh, I really haven't what what would I need to do? To steer back towards that value or to steer back towards that path and
And then it creates a mini goal for the week ahead, you know, and that's really how therapy works is, you know, you go and you have this sense of accountability for yourself. There are things you want to work on and you see how you've been getting on and you tweak things a bit and you set a new goal for the next week and then you reflect on that again next week. So I think translating kind of ideas and values into action is really about that.
reflection and planning. So you learn in hindsight, you look back, actually, yeah, if I'm really, really honest with myself in the last couple of weeks, have I been living in line with that value? Whatever it was, enthusiasm, for example. And then, you know, if the answer is not really, you create a set of, you know, specific actions that I will do this week and
to move closer to that. And then the next week you reflect on, well, how was that? Did it move me closer? Does that feel enough? Do I need to do more? Do I need to step back? And those sorts of things. So it's just always balancing and tweaking and never ever doing it perfectly because that's really not the aim.
Yeah, I really like that model of like, it's like you're steering towards this path that you've kind of decided that this is the thing I care about for now. Yeah. Do values change much as we grow older? Oh, hugely, I think. Yeah. I mean...
for me I I you know when I was I don't know 19 or 20 I never even envisioned myself as as being a parent I was really focused on my studies and learning and traveling and doing all those things um but now that's without a doubt the most important thing in my life so you know that it's only a decade it's only you know um uh you know it's it's not a long time but but when life throws things at you and life changes then you you know what what
what matters to you changes as well. And that's okay. You know, you don't have to be the same person. You learn and grow and you would adapt to that, I think. Nice. So coming back to the overall question of like meaningful life, it sounds like figuring out your values is like a pretty reasonable first step on the path of like, hey, I mean, we all basically know that we want to live a meaningful life, but I think very few of us actually understand
keep that in mind yeah when because it's just it's it's kind of a bit a bit weird like it's a bit out there to think oh what's the meaning of life okay well let me do some exercises and actually figure this out rather than just dismissing it as oh no one can ever figure that out kind of thing yeah and i think we often look outwards as well don't we we look to you know we're bombarded with media that tell us what life should be about and what our purpose should be and um
It's quite empowering when you give yourself permission to generate your own meaning and say, well, actually, you know, it is up to you what matters to you. And then you can structure life around that. Life's still really, really hard and there are still responsibilities. But how you approach those responsibilities, it's really your choice. And that can be quite sort of refreshing, I think, to
I think you don't have to be gaining everybody's approval. You have to be looking at, well, what would life be like if I approved of myself? If I approved of myself? Oh, as in like, if I were kind of following the path that I've decided is meaningful? Yeah. So if I'm looking for my own approval, what would I be doing? You know, it's a sort of, yes, we can get approval from other people. But also, what would make me really pleased with myself? Because
those are my values rather than them necessarily being other people's. Can you really dissociate that? Like, you know, let's say I value
I'm considering applying to Harvard for like an MBA and I keep on like second guessing this because I'm like why am I doing this like I value prestige I value status I value these badges of like stuff is that really like me or is that kind of what society plus or minus my family have kind of instilled into me that makes me feel as if it's coming from within if that makes sense what's what's the gut feeling what's do you feel that it's come from outside no
I don't feel like it's come from outside. But I also didn't come out of the womb thinking I want to get a degree from Cambridge and Harvard. So there is some level of like, you know, it wasn't a genetic decision. There is some level of like socialization that goes into this sort of stuff. And I guess I wondered to what extent the fact that
I know that probably a large chunk of my identity is socialized to some degree. Does that still make me me or does it make me a product of the society I've been brought up in? And then how do I find my true meaning if...
well, it's society that's told me that a Harvard and Cambridge degree is like a good thing. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Because we're all a product of our upbringings and our cultures and all those kind of things, aren't we? So, you know, I don't think it's about sort of finding this one truth. I think it's about creating the meaning, holding on to the things that, you know, what a wonderful thing that would be to do if that was what you would enjoy and find inspiring. And exactly. So, you know, I think you can, that's the beauty of it is when you're,
when you're in a position that you can choose those things, then you can decide, yes, it might be that I've, I've learned, you know, some of these sort of,
ideas around prestige of universities and stuff. But actually, I would really enjoy that and it would give me a lot of meaning and purpose. It doesn't matter if it came from someone else, if you agree with it, you know? Whereas if you feel pressured and it's not something you want to do, but you feel like you're doing it because, you know, someone will disapprove of you if you don't, then that's slightly different, isn't it? But if it's something you love...
And you would get good memories from. I think it's kind of like, realistically, the reason I go to the gym is not for myself. It's to look more attractive. But I also agree that it's a good thing to do. And therefore, who cares what the prime motivation is? It's a good thing to do. Exactly. You can kind of use all the different aspects of pressure to your own advantage. Are there values that are more better than others?
Like, for example, if I were to be like, okay, you know, really my value is sitting in front of the PlayStation and playing video games all day. Yes, you could say, well, anything goes as long as it makes you happy. But there's also, I'm sure there must be some evidence around like, well, I don't know, relationships or like whatever as, as,
focusing on these things even if you feel like you don't really want to in the moment because you're focused on video games will actually be good for you in the long term is there like that aspect when it comes to values of some being like better if we're optimizing for a meaningful life yeah because i think um you know your value might be i don't know um time out and rest or you know your value might be around it might be even to do with um you know your well-being if
you have your really stressful job and that's always been time to sort of unwind for you then it would fit whereas you know playing video games all the time might actually pull you away from a lot of other values so you know it can be really tempting and that's where these subjects are really difficult to kind of grasp and
and be concrete with because they're so sort of broad and there is no set prescription um there is maybe that temptation to kind of um make it your own make it whatever you suits what you want to do at the time and and actually a lot of having a meaningful life is about
being responsible, you know, taking on responsibility and accountability for anyone you're responsible for or things you're responsible for, things that you believe in and doing the hard stuff. It's not necessarily about doing whatever feels good now. It's doing, you know, that's when we get into a lot of trouble is I think is when we base our actions on how we want to feel now as opposed to how we want to feel in the future.
Because you might really enjoy playing computer games nonstop. Five years down the road, you might look back and think,
God, do I really want to do that? You know? Yeah. I think there is a balance there between like not being so future focused that we forget to live in the present. Yeah. But also not being so present focused that like the whole live every day like it's your last is like probably terrible advice. Yeah. Because then you'd just be doing heroin and clearly like destroying yourself. Exactly. And a meaningful, purposeful life is often about, you know,
doing the hard stuff for the benefit of, you know, your future or someone else's future or your community and yeah, all of those things. Yeah, the way I've been thinking about it recently is, I mean, it's all kind of semantics, but like happiness is how good I'm feeling in the moment broadly and like contentment and meaning is how useful I am being to other people. I don't know, does that like,
Make sense at all from what you've read and written about the stuff? Yeah, because I think there's a, you know, this sort of happiness movement was really
it's a tricky one isn't it because it's it's a feeling like any other that comes and goes and we can't depend on it and but I think When so much was sort of written about happiness as this thing that we all needed to sort of grab and hold on to it then it gave us the impression that the happiness is our Default mode and anything out of that could be a mental health problem. All right, and so, you know that this idea that that
you can everyone has bad days right everyone has days when they don't feel happy um they feel something else and and that's normal and that's human and that's okay um and actually some of the things that make us happiest also make us feel lots of really negative and painful emotions so i don't know like uh you know when you become a parent you feel that's the the you know best thing in the world to you and you feel really happy but also there'll be times when you feel really really sad and and
ashamed if you feel like you've made some mistake or um you know distress when your child goes out into the world or you know there's a whole host of emotions that come along with happiness as well so um yeah it's it's a shame how sort of oversimplified it it kind of has been made i think so so we kind of said that living meaningful life is sort of like figuring out what your values are and then attempting to live it's sort of in in alignment with those values
Are there any other kind of elements that add into the recipe or the thing of a meaningful life beyond the value stuff? Yeah, I think it's keeping in touch with those values, isn't it, on a regular basis so that you don't find yourself adrift and wondering what on earth is the meaning, if any. Because I think life starts to feel a bit meaningless, doesn't it, if we don't really have clarity on values.
why we're doing what we're doing and all of those things. So I guess it's sort of keeping in touch with those values and trying to be around people whose values connect in some way. I think you can suddenly feel very alone if you find yourself in a situation where your values clearly do not
cross over with the people that you're around. So there's, you know, you can't really talk about a meaningful life without talking about relationships as well and how to manage relationships. So, yeah, I mean, there's a section in the book on, or there's a chapter in the book on relationships within the meaningful life because you can't, you can't really separate the two. We're social beings. So, you know, relationships are our meaning, really. What...
What can we do to kind of live more in alignment with-- I guess because, at least speaking for me, I know intellectually that relationships are the most important thing in life. And yet, if I think about all the podcasts I listen to, 98 of them are about business and two of them are about health and relationships. And if I think about how I spend my time, like 16 hours a day is spent here doing the YouTube stuff and one or two hours is spent hanging out with friends, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, so that I know intellectually that actually relationships are important.
And yet I didn't call my mum this morning. Yeah. Yeah. And that in itself is just interesting, isn't it? When we look at, because I think there's perhaps a tendency to, when we look at that, to then be self-critical and think, oh, I'm not getting it right. Or, you know, I need to do it. And actually it has to come with, that sort of reflection has to come with some compassion that we are set up in a world that dictates that we go to work for a certain number of hours a day and that we're
you know, certain days a week and all these kind of things. And we are wrapped up in that. But what an amazing privilege to be able to sort of get a bird's eye view on it, look at it and say, I'd like it to be a bit different. Is it possible with my life situation at the moment to make it any different or to tip the balance? And the reality is for a lot of people, they have to be at work for a certain number of hours a day or they, you know, all those kind of things. And life is really tough. But when we get into a position where we have choices,
How empowering to be able to use them and to say, do you know what? You know, I'm Ali Abdel now. I can do what I want. And that would be great. But the pressure that is a cultural pressure, I think, isn't it? To, you know, this sort of burnout badge of honor type thing that I work, work, work and, you know, earn more, be more, buy more, all of that kind of stuff that inevitably leads to, you know, lots of people dying.
queuing up outside the therapy room door. Yeah. Yeah, that's a question I sometimes ask myself, like, what is the point of all of this more? Kind of moving to London, getting this ridiculously expensive studio, building a team to freaking 17 people now. It all feels, I sometimes look back and I think, huh, how the hell do we get here? But then at the same time, I think, okay, but this like genuinely feels fun. Like if I think of how I'd want to spend the next 12 months of my life,
I could kind of do whatever. I could like travel the world and stuff. But it genuinely does feel more fun to be like, actually, I just want to come into the studio every day and just hang out with the team and like make cool videos. And maybe that preference will change further down the line. But right now, that's the thing that feels the most fun.
And so let's just give it a go and see what happens. Yeah, absolutely. And it's giving you opportunities and great experiences and you're meeting different people. And so if you value those things at that point and it feels that it's giving you joy and some meaning and some purpose, then why not? It's okay to say, this doesn't have to be forever. I can do this while it feels meaningful. And then it's okay at some point if my values or meaning change. Yeah.
It's kind of taking each chapter for what it is. Yeah, I really like that. Like most decisions, I mean, other than like marriage and kids and stuff, are kind of temporary. Like, you know, this is a one year lease on this building. So it's a one year experiment. And then we'll see what happens. It kind of takes the pressure off it a little bit.
The thing that we're doing now is not the thing that we actually have to do forever. It's just the thing that we're doing for now. And we're just checking with ourselves. And I find that over the last couple of weeks, I've been finding that something doesn't feel quite right. And I look at my calendar. I'm like, well, it's full of all of these meetings and stuff. And really, I want to carve out more time for writing. All right, cool. I just can do that. So no more meetings before 12 p.m. All right, team, sort the rest out. And now I have writing time in the morning, and it's great. I just feel it feels nice to...
kind of give myself the permission to do that. Because I was operating before on a just default mode, just not realizing that I can sort of carve the life that I think I want and experiment with that for a couple of weeks and see what happens and correct course. I sort of thought I had to sort of get it perfect from day one. But it's nice to have the freedom to just explore.
Yeah, because there is that pressure, isn't there, to sort of have it all sorted and appear to have it all sorted, which then holds us back from learning and changing direction. A bit like, you know, even in sort of medicine or in psychology, if at any point it doesn't feel safe to make a mistake or anything, then you become sort of almost defensive in your practice, don't you? And you kind of think it's not okay to learn from experience and do something differently next time. I have to show
show that I've got it all sorted. So I think there is a lot of that in our society, isn't there, that stops people from just making a small change and giving themselves permission to do that because it would make them happier. As you're growing on TikTok and Instagram and kind of doubling with YouTube, where did...
the book come into things? Like what was the story behind how the book came to be? It was, it was in my mind that I wanted to give more details and more, you know, how to's to make it as useful as it could be for people. But it wasn't until I got approached by my literary agent, Abigail Bergstrom, who was really, really helpful. You know, I was having all these sort of publishers get in contact.
with ideas and things that he wanted to do. But she really helped by saying, write the book that you want to write. So, you know, put together a proposal for the thing that you want to do and then we'll take it from there and, you know, send that out to people. So, and then, and then signed a deal with Penguin, which was just really, really exciting. And it was writing through lockdown. So,
My poor husband was trying to homeschool three children while I was locked upstairs trying to get the 80,000 words out, which again was a huge
roller coaster emotionally because you you're taken completely out of your comfort zone or the place where you feel like you know what you're doing and started I got a few book recommendations from your videos actually about writing and things like that and You know, I just started reading a lot about writing thinking. Oh my gosh I know the psychology but how do I put it across in the right way and So that was that was a real experience was was I
how do I write, you know, that I'm
I've got this deal because I've got this audience. How do I make it really, really good so that people can come be engaged by it and stuff? How did you find your literary agent? Really, really helpful. How did you find her? Oh, how did I find her? So I was approached by Gleam Futures, who are a management company. So I work with them and they sort of help me with the different brand deals and events and things that I'll join. And she was the head of
published their in-house publishing. She's now sort of branched out on her own, I think. But yeah, they sort of found me. I was in the, weirdly, I was in the Evening Standard on some article and during lockdown it was being delivered to people's houses. And so one of the girls that was quite sort of high up in Gleam saw the, the,
and then gave me a call and said, "What an announcement." But they've been absolutely really, really helpful in helping me to kind of steer this whole thing because it's completely new to me. I'm just sort of stepping out of the therapy room and going, "I don't know what I'm doing or where I'm taking this." So it was really, really helpful to have a bit of guidance. - Oh, nice. And so when you, so then you kind of put the proposal together
How different was the proposal to what's ended up being the final product? It's similar in terms of how it's structured.
I perhaps didn't have a really set idea of what would be in each chapter. I kind of had this idea of, yeah, we'll cover this, this and this. And then, oh, the mountain of research came after, you know. And yeah, I think there wasn't a day when my desk wasn't absolutely covered in paper and books and, you know, notes and things like that. It was a monstrous task. But yeah.
What an experience. I mean, how is your book going? Are you still working on still? So we've, the proposal is now finished like a year later. And it's like the proposal went through so many iterations and it completely scrapped the concept and then went down a whole different route. Now I'm into the actual writing and I've realized that it's very easy to make promises in the proposal. Like in chapter one, I will discuss the importance of goal setting and why goals should be like this rather than that and why motivation is about this rather than that.
Then it comes to actually writing it. It's like, bloody hell. I've made a big promise and I don't need to actually deliver on it. Looking at the research, like, oh, well, actually the research says that challenging goals are better than easy goals. And my whole point is that easy goals are the way forward. Damn, am I trying to make a point that's like not with the research and then looking into it. And yeah, it's a, but it's fun. It's sort of like being back at uni almost where it's like, I'm trying to make a specific argument throughout this essay and I just need to find the evidence to back it up.
make sure I am not cherry-picking egregiously to the point that it's actually inaccurate yeah yeah what was that process like it's a similar challenge isn't it because we're probably quite similar in the sense that I really enjoy the learning part and I enjoy the reading and the and the discovery and and then the real challenge for me is okay try and put this into something vaguely coherent and engaging for people and that was feels like the hard part the bit I love is the
oh let's read and let's get all these books together and find something there's such potential in that it's putting it together with your experience and you know the things that you've read oops don't let go so these arms they're just going everywhere yeah so I love the sort of learning part and bringing it all together and then sort of you know
going off on one in the kitchen to my husband about this, this, this, this, and this, and this. But actually writing it down is a whole other ballgame, isn't it? So, yeah, I find it super challenging, really challenging. How, how, do you have any imposter syndrome around the writing the book? Every day, every day. Because what, what was the book that you recommended that I've got it, is it the,
the war of art oh yeah and oh it's such a good book and i had to sort of keep listening to i got the paper version and the audiobook version so that i could occasionally listen to his voice reminding me that you know professional sits down and cracks on um because that first sort of hour or two of the day was really getting over that hump of
can i do this am i am i should i even be here writing this should somebody else be doing it would somebody else be better place doing it and then reminding yourself that you have all of this stuff to share that people are finding useful um and here we go okay yeah there's nothing better than finding yourself 20 minutes into typing you think yes yes i'm doing it i'm doing oh no no i'm back just go on you stop again and you're kind of i'm worried about the next bit but um
Yeah, just another one of those experiences where you think I learned a lot from it because it was such a challenge for me.
Yeah, I think in basically all of the chats that I ever have with my agent and editor, they feel more like therapy sessions where they're like, look, it's okay. You can do this. Trust yourself. And I was like, but it's a book. And they're like, yeah, but a book's not that big a deal. Like, you know, if you were making a video about this topic, you'd be pretty comfortable. Like, have that same energy when it comes to the book. Like, yeah, but it's a book. Like, for some reason, a book feels like such a big deal.
I don't know if you had any of that at all. Like, what did book feel like relative to making a TikTok video? Yeah, I mean, books are my favourite thing in the world. So it's a bit of a sort of running joke at home, actually, that, you know, I sort of hoard books and they're very special to me and I won't kind of throw them away or that kind of thing. And so, yeah, to me, the...
producing a book is such a special thing to do and there's so much potential every time you pick up a book, things that you could learn or that has the potential to change your day or your life.
So for me, then it perhaps gave me this sense of, this has to be life-changing and groundbreaking. And while I believe that all this research I was learning about is life-changing and groundbreaking and should be passed on, it's still then getting yourself to the point where you think this book can be, you know? And I put, you know, blood, sweat and tears into including the stuff that I think
has been so helpful for me and for the people I've worked with that can just generally help you get through those normal day-to-day problems that we all face. You know, there's a section on grief, a section on anxiety and, you know, motivation and those low days that everybody gets. So it wasn't really on...
Or, you know, really sort of there isn't a section on depression, for example. But there is a section on low mood and dark times, which everybody faces. You know, everyone has those low days. And then how can we how can we understand those and how can we then do something about it? So, yeah, I was just trying to be kind of as useful as possible. One thing you talk about in the book is the idea of motivation and like doing things even when you don't feel like it.
How did you go about writing the book even on days where you didn't feel like it? There were lots of days when I probably didn't feel like it, especially when I was missing out on family time. Because, you know, my job was originally set up to be so that I could be a mum for a lot of the time. And suddenly I had this deadline and I had to be on this book all the time. Yeah.
So there were a couple of weekends and stuff where, you know, the kids are going out to the park with my husband and stuff. And I was at home feeling kind of sorry for myself. And those are the times when I really didn't want to do it. Then it's using those old therapy skills of sort of opposite action and stuff like that. So this idea that you can, well, I saw your video on that sort of activation and stuff like that. Yeah, the pain barrier. Yeah.
and it's really it's really similar to something we use in a therapy called DBT dialectical behavior therapy where we talk about opposite action so the idea that you can have an urge to do something and we get a choice whether we act opposite to that urge or whether we go with it and so and you can kind of practice I mean we used to actually without knowing we used to
practice as kids with like polo mints and stuff where you would have to hold a polo in your mouth and not crunch it and the urge to crunch and bite down on the mint was really intense but then actually when you do that you notice that you can have an urge to do something and you don't have to go with it you can do something else you can act opposite to it and so you can kind of practice with sort of simple things like that just to build up that self-awareness but you know the urge might be to go down and make a third cup of tea in the last you know 45 minutes and
what's really going on here is I don't want to type because I feel like it's going to be terrible. So I'm just going to start knowing it's terrible and then at some point I get into a groove and I forget that I'm trying to not do this. So yeah, the act opposite is always really, really helpful for me actually.
Not easy, but when you do manage to use it, it's helpful. Yeah. One thing that you write about as well is how motivation is tied to identity. I wonder if you can kind of elaborate on that a little bit. Yeah. So I think if you see something as a part of who you are, it seems to take less energy. If you clean your teeth every morning because you see yourself as someone who looks after their dental hygiene, then...
It doesn't feel negotiable. It's just something you do. You don't do it because you feel like it today. You do it because that's what you do. And it's just a part of your life. So, yeah, I think identity is a big part of the things that we do. You know, we do things because we've always done them. And so that's how they then become a part of our identity. That's something that's been part of our lives for a long time.
So, yeah, having something that you decide is a part of your identity, it's not easy. Again, it's not easy. All of these things are really easy for me to say. I say that a lot in therapy. This is really easy for me to say, really, really hard to do in practice because it is. But if you can...
And like you say, when you're going to therapy for something that doesn't feel like a problem, actually, when you're trying to make some sort of positive change in your life or redirect habits and stuff, sitting down and thinking about your identity, you know, why is changing this particular habit really hard for me? Actually, my identity is...
based on something else or it conflicts with it in some way, then maybe your identity is that you work harder than anybody else, but then actually you're not making time to go to the gym and stay healthy. So if you kind of then incorporate being a healthy person into your identity, it becomes a bit easier to prioritize it because it's a part of who you are and you get to realize that you can do both. Yeah, yeah, that's a pretty good point. I think that...
So when I first read "Atomic Habits" and he talks a lot about kind of ultimately habit change is like a thing but really we're trying to go for identity change. And I started thinking of myself as I am a person who is healthy.
And then it became easier to make certain decisions around going for one food versus another. And it's still not perfect. Like this morning I was meant to have a personal trainer session, but I kind of got out of bed a bit late. I was doing an interview until late night. I was like, oh, I don't really feel like it. Do I cancel or do I not? And I ended up cancelling the session because I was like, it's fine. It's all good. But I think also when it comes to identity,
uh one thing that i found is that like for for people who are interested in like getting things done and productivity and like self-improvement and all that stuff there is kind of a sort of super identity in a way that sits above the specific identities which is sort of like uh i'm a person that gets things done i'm a productive person i'm a sort of whatever that that means that kind of anything
underneath that, which is basically everything else in life, becomes easier to do. Whereas I find with people who have told themselves that they are a procrastinator, oh, I'm just so unproductive. Oh, I could never do that. It becomes so hard to then do all of the other things like health and wealth and like caring about relationships, like all of the other stuff around
what makes a good life is harder to do if you have an identity of someone who does not have their shit together proverbially. I don't know if that's something that you found at all. Yeah, absolutely. You can have set sort of core beliefs about yourself that came from, you know, maybe early in childhood and they've just persisted and then
and they can really, we don't think about them all the time. So we're not always even aware of them. In therapy, we'll spend sometimes a fair amount of time sort of trying to work out what those core beliefs are for someone and really sort of trying to get right down to it. And once we get there, there's often this sort of light bulb moment for people where they think, yes. And because you don't really think about your core beliefs
all the time, sometimes never at all. But they're that template that was perhaps set up for you early in life that is your template for the world. So it's your idea of, they're often I am statements. So it might be, I don't know, if it was something negative, it might be I am unlovable or I am unlikable or something. Or it might be what to expect from other people. So other people will abandon me or other people will,
you know, hurt me or something or something about the world. So the world is a dangerous place or something like that. So those core beliefs are things that kind of sit under the surface and influence the choices that we make but we don't necessarily consciously think about why we're making those choices. We have an urge and we go with it because we always did.
So, yeah, that's sort of all of that identity stuff. It's a big part of what happens in therapy, but we can do that kind of thing in a self-help approach. So with journaling and things like that, you know, you can really reflect on some of your own, you know, choices or the cycles that you seem to get stuck in and you're not really sure how to break it.
Getting it down on paper something we do in therapy a lot is getting a bird's-eye view. You literally draw maps of Behavior patterns and and then you look down it and you go. Oh, that's how I can break it There's there's the exit. Okay now I know what I need to do Which can be really helpful So there's a lot of that the book where there's a lot of things like journal prompts They're just questions for you to sit down and go. Okay, let's answer these and ten minutes and maybe you might have that moment when you go I
Yeah, I think journaling prompts are such an underrated technique because I've come across a lot of journal prompts and as I was reading through the book, I was like, oh, these prompts are really good. And then I didn't do anything with them. But I know if I just sat with any one of them for 10 minutes and actually just answered it, I'd get so much clarity on stuff
Stuff in my life. Yeah, it just feels like and anytime I've done that in the past I've always felt like damn. I'm really glad I did this. I really should do this more often Yeah, and that's we're doing this sort of, you know, the the therapy thing even though there's not a specific problem Yeah that you're really trying to fix sometimes it can be that sort of introspection and and learning about yourself in the way that you might with journaling where you just have someone to answer or ask those questions, but then also
Reflect back on what they're hearing and things like that, you know a therapist can be a mirror essentially where they reflect back to you what they're hearing from you and Sometimes that can be quite surprising what do you what you realize you're you're sort of giving out? Yeah, I mean when I mentioned this therapy thing to my mum she was like and I kind of said that oh, yeah You know, it's kind of nice even don't have a specific problem She was like, yeah, but haven't you know, why can't you just talk to your friends about that kind of stuff? I was like, yeah, that's a good point. I probably probably could um
But there's something about speaking to a stranger about stuff that feels a bit different to speaking to a friend.
Yeah, and sometimes in a friendship, it's obviously a two-way thing, isn't there? So you often kind of talk for a while and then you feel that you need to be there for the friend and so it goes back and forth. And sometimes if you have something you really want to sort of deep dive on or really want to work out, sometimes you do want that completely private, protected time where you can just focus on that without feeling guilty that you're perhaps, you know, taking up your friend's time or something like that. So, you know...
And you can get a trained perspective, whereas friends can be a great, great support, but sometimes they might try and solve it for us or make us feel better in the moment. And sometimes if you're really trying to work something out, you don't need to feel better in the moment. You need to sit with it and keep going so that you can kind of work through it. Yeah, it strikes me that therapists are often very good at asking questions. Why?
What are like the top three techniques that a therapist would use to kind of go deeper on a topic with someone? So they'll ask sort of very open questions. You know, the yes or no answers are not what you want in therapy. So they'll ask very open questions that require more than a yes or no answer to get someone talking. They will just zip it sometimes and just be completely... You know, I've had whole therapy sessions where I've barely said a word because someone is just...
going for it and they've got a flow and they know exactly what they want to work out and say and things like that. But there are other times when you actually do a lot of talking and there is a lot of education and so it's perhaps a skill of kind of being able to take what someone is saying and get it out on paper so you're formulating and you are
taking maybe a specific time or event, a sort of he said, she said, or I did this, then I did that, and you plot out the process. And actually, that might not be a one-off event because it might be a pattern of behavior that they're stuck in, and then you kind of get this bird's eye view, and then that person can kind of see
"Oh, right, that's what I'm doing," or, "That's why I'm doing it." And there's also this kind of guided discovery. So you're not advising someone, "Do this," or, "Don't do that." You guide and help them to come to a point where
they discover it for themselves and then they work out what they want to do based on their values or the life they want to create. One sort of pattern I've noticed is that Americans who write books are much more open with being prescriptive than Brits who write books.
Every British author I've ever spoken to feels a bit of a cringe about giving advice. Whereas the Americans seem to be full on confident about it. I guess given that your book is a self-help book, how did you feel about giving advice? Yeah, it's hard, isn't it? Because like you say, a lot of therapy isn't about giving advice. It's about saying, here's what the research says.
how might you use that? And then helping that sort of, you know, being guided discovery. And that's why there are so many journal prompts in there and activities and exercises that people can work through because it's individual. You know, you can give a sort of blanket piece of advice and it won't work for everyone. And, yeah,
it's interesting because we often talk a lot about at home about these you know like sort of wellness influences and stuff that say you know you must get up at 5am and you must meditate for an hour then work out and then you know have a decent you know special breakfast or whatever and you think
Yeah, but it really doesn't work for everybody. You know, there are people with children or there are people that shift work and there are people that just have lots of responsibilities and stuff. And so often when you give a blanket statement advice, there are lots of people then that can't find it as helpful because it just isn't what their life looks like. You have...
what I thought was a pretty hot take in the book, which is that this whole thing of don't care what other people think is not necessarily like good advice. Yeah. What's your, what's the theory there? Yeah, because we are, we are social beings, aren't we? And, and, and,
However much you tell someone not to care what other people think they are built to care because and if you didn't you wouldn't be a very social person right, you know if I was in here and not caring what anybody else thought of me I could be really antisocial and and destroy relationships that I could have otherwise made and and then I'm not going to fare very well if I'm not able to maintain relationships and so there are opinions that matter and
Some matter more than others. And I think it's all about that is working out whose opinions do I value? Yeah. And...
And how can I then manage the discomfort if those people whose opinions I value disapprove of me or criticize me in some way? And then there's a whole set of skills around, you know, managing criticism and things like that and recognizing that it comes from some, you know, another person and it's personal to them. Do you get any hate on the Internet? Is that something that you've got?
I feel like I need to touch wood now because so far, so far so good. I mean, it's not been, you get the odd weird comment that feels sort of strange, but yeah,
not a huge amount, not anything that has caused me to think, I don't want to do this. And I don't really know why. Maybe it's luck. Maybe it's also because it's quite a niche subject that people are coming in sort of hitting follow because they want that kind of information.
So, yeah, it's been a really lovely kind of community actually. And even people that kind of get into the comments support each other and come up with different bits of advice for each other and help and stuff, which is really, really nice. But it does make you vulnerable, doesn't it? Putting content out there. And I, you know, hats off to anyone who has...
the courage to make some form of content and put it out into the world because it's not easy. It makes you feel vulnerable and anxious and it doesn't feel safe to do it sometimes, you know? - Yeah. Were you ever concerned about what your friends and family would think when you started being a TikToker? - Oh, hugely. So I think I probably had about
about 100,000 followers on TikTok before I even told my family or anyone that I was doing... And I don't think I even told them. I think my husband told them at Christmas one year that we were doing this thing. And I just hated telling anyone I knew. I didn't want to, you know, tell other professionals that I knew because of the sort of professional judgment side. But actually there's loads of therapists and psychologists now that are all online and doing something similar, which is great.
And my family kind of get it a bit more now, whereas it's really difficult thing to explain at the beginning, isn't it? So I'm putting these videos on the internet. - Yeah. - What? But now that it's a thing, it's a bit easier to kind of explain. How about you? Did you find it difficult to kind of share what you were doing with family or colleagues and stuff in the early days? - Yeah, so when I first started, it was like doing vlogs of my medical school elective. And so I would post a link in our family WhatsApp group
But I didn't post anything on Facebook where I had, where all my friends were until like 30 videos in. And I was like, "Oh, hey guys, you know, I did a thing. I made these videos about my elective. Check it out if you want." As a very kind of... And then I did not post anything at all on Facebook from that point onwards because I was like, "You know what? A, I still feel a bit cringe about this. And B, this is not like... My friends on Facebook are not the people I'm targeting with this content."
And to this day, whenever someone says that, oh, I actually watched your video, I always feel like, oh, hello. Because I just don't... The sort of people I'm talking to are not the people that are like my friends or people older than me. It's very much people younger than me, kind of myself when like five years ago, that kind of stuff. So it always feels flattering when people actually find stuff helpful. I don't know if you have that at all. Yeah, yeah. And because it's still...
when it's all online and there's this little number of sort of views and things like that, there's a sense that it's not really real. But when a real person comes up to you and says, "Oh, I watched your videos and that was really helpful." There's this sort of, "Oh, oh yes, that did go out to the world, didn't it?" And then that sort of moment of vulnerability of, "Oh God, people actually saw that."
I think that's a great place to end this. I'd love to end with a few kind of rapid-firey type questions. Okay. The questions will be rapid, but the answers certainly don't have to be. I'd love for you to elaborate. So if we start with a quick-fire question. So what advice would you give to your younger self? Just keep doing everything you normally do because, yes, I made mistakes along the way and I did things that I would do differently now, but...
they got me to where I am now. So I think there's a recognition at this point in my life that you can make, you have to make your mistakes along the way. You have to because you then learn from them and they make you who you are. And, and, you know, I think you learn about how strong you can be by going through really tough times. So, yeah, I think I,
it would be just keep going, it turns out all right. - Next question, who would you say has had the biggest influence on your career? - Part of me wants to say my parents because I was the first person in my family to go to university and they didn't have huge amounts of money so they worked really, really hard to give me that opportunity so that I could go. But I guess since that time, since sort of qualifying and
you know, being a psychologist, probably my husband actually, because he sort of, you know, said, well, why don't you try private practice and why don't you try and make a YouTube video and why don't you try to go on TikTok and, you know, all of those things. So actually where I probably would have kept myself contained and done, you know, a single thing, he's always gone, go on, try that, try that, try that. And here we are. Yeah.
What is one tip for someone looking for success? I would say it depends what success you're looking for. Because the idea of success is different for different people. Nice. And I suppose that comes back to sort of living in alignment with your values. Yeah. Yeah. I would say, yeah, maybe then the tip is, you know, work out what success means to you.
and then start doing research on how to live in line with that. What does the first and last hour of your day look like? Oh, gosh. So the first hour of the day is...
is getting everybody, myself and three small children out of the house in time for school, which starts at 8:30. So lots of rushing around, grabbing cereal bowls, getting people dressed, brushing everyone's teeth and all that, you know, just this constant go, go, go, go, go in the morning.
So no time for those sort of idyllic, you know, yoga sessions or meditation and all that. You know, everyone get on board in the mornings. And then the last hour of the day, we're usually making videos and things like that. So it gets to the point where I'm kind of losing my voice or just cannot bear to do anymore. And then, yeah, kind of wrapping up on videos and stuff. The whole rushing to get the kids out of the house. Is that fun?
No, no, no. I mean it can be, yeah it can be, but you know when you've got a deadline and you have three small humans that have no concept of deadlines and no real rush to be anywhere,
you know there's a sense when you're really young that if something needs to happen mum will make it happen and and so you know teaching young children that that if you need to get to school in time we have to get dressed right now so put the lego down you know this is sort of um so it's not always fun no i'm not going to kind of try and create that image that mums should be having fun in the morning did you consider homeschooling the kids like permanently
um not really after lockdown that experience was really really tough in terms of um they're all different ages you know obviously got three different ages three different sets of needs very young um you know hats off to anyone who does permanent homeschooling what a challenge that must be you know you have to be so on board with the best techniques for learning and how to engage them because if they're not engaged they're just not um and actually you
I realised how much they missed from school, not in terms of academics, but in terms of social experience and being with their friends, you know, and you learn so much from school, I think, by just being around other kids and learning how to relate to other people and build friendships and maintain friendships. There's so much of that that is so good about school, I think. What is a sort of physical thing that's maybe under £100 that you couldn't live without?
maybe my um the light that I use for my videos yeah because given that half of our videos are made at sort of 11 o'clock at night when I'm looking really ropey and tired you know it's just it really helps so probably that um what book would you recommend to anyone
Other than yours. Other than my own, yeah. I struggle with this. I started like a little book club on my Instagram because there are so, I have so many books and so many that I would recommend but they're all for different things. You know, they're all for different problems or concerns. So, but actually for anyone doing any kind of sort of creative endeavour, the one that I,
read a lot that was a recommendation from your channel when I was writing was I'm going to get the title wrong now but it's the war of art isn't it oh yeah just brilliant nice let's say you lose everything like all the followers and all the money and all the clout and fame and stuff
what would you be doing if you didn't have all that stuff? Would you try and rebuild or would you kind of do something else? What's the... I would focus on being a mom, I think, because that's something that has been really difficult for me is balancing that. And a lot of the time I've been doing this really exciting stuff and it's been fantastic, but I have felt along the way that it's pulling me, you know, it's been a real balance of, I want to be with the children. I want to be very present with the children. But there are all these fantastic opportunities that I need to, you know,
you know, be my best for. So it's been a sort of always a tightrope of balancing that. So I'd probably sort of pull right back and go for the simple life. Yeah, I find that this is what a lot of people say, like when you've been doing something for a while, then you sort of then want to pull in the other direction and
Yeah. Get that kind of balance back. Yeah, I think it's really tough when you're sort of working and running a family that you're constantly in a rush. So I like the idea at the moment of sort of simplicity. But obviously, you know, you always have to sort of
and keep a roof over everyone's heads and stuff. So there is that. But yeah, I'd probably go for, probably back to my therapy room, do a few hours in there and then make dinner for my children. Yeah. Really simple. So like when I speak to creators, we often kind of joke about the whole like, yeah, well, you know, I've got to put bread on the table type thing. Usually people are way beyond the point where they actually have to worry about putting bread on the table. And I've certainly found that the, but I need to put bread on the table becomes,
a sort of untested assumption for just chasing more and more and more. Do you think about that at all? I do, yeah. At what point is enough enough kind of thing? Yeah, when is it enough? And you certainly, because it's been a massive life change for me as well, that, you know, I've always been doing all the value stuff in the book, thinking about, well, you know, what am I and am I in line with that? Because a lot of the time I've felt like it's pulling me away from my values because I, you know, I structured my career so that I could be really present as a mom and, you know,
and every time it pulls me I think oh no I want to be here or I want to be there and but that's a great opportunity and it's always a balancing act isn't it and I think it's always about checking in and seeing if if I want to pull back in this direction you know at the moment I'm I'm taking a day back to um take my youngest son to swimming lessons and things and take into little clubs that I did with my other children and and um so just taking little choices and actions that help you to kind of come back to something that feels more
More meaningful. Nice. That's pretty good. What quote or mantra do you live by? Do you know, I was such a hoarder of quotes when I was at university the first time. I used to have all these little notebooks where I stored little quotes and things like that and I don't really do it anymore. But I guess you've got Instagram and there's just full of them, isn't it? So I don't really have a set one. I guess it's like when you've got something in your head, it's hard to call them.
I call them. Yeah. It's like the book recommendation question. I find it really hard to recommend. Yes. It's like, oh, tell me more about your problems and then I'll prescribe you a book. Yeah. I mean, I love finding a really powerful quote at the right time, you know, that really resonates at the time. But different quotes resonate at different times. So I don't really have one that I live by forever and ever. Nice. And finally, journey or destination?
Nice. Everyone says that. Maya asks, how do you overcome the feeling of being never enough? You know, there's a whole chapter on this in the book, actually, about sort of self-doubt and being enough. And I think you've done videos, haven't you, before on sort of self-sabotage, not self-sabotage, sorry, on imposter syndrome and the idea of kind of getting into a situation and not being enough. And I think feeling that self,
Occasionally because you're stepping into a new environment is normal, isn't it? If you're trying something new you're out of your comfort zone. It's scary you're worried about not being enough that would be natural and human and Allows you to kind of feel a bit stressed and alert that allows you to kind of step up to it. Yeah, I
if you feel it all the time, I would say sometimes that can be quite a complex issue. So it's worth breaking down and really kind of understanding where it's come from, how it plays out in your day-to-day life. So how you behave in line with that or how you reconfirm it with some of the things, some of the choices that you make or behaviors that you do. And then because it becomes then a whole process of breaking some of those patterns because you
You can't convince yourself you're enough by just telling yourself you're enough. Your brain works on evidence, which is action. You have to create evidence with action. So you start to feel enough when you start to behave as if you're enough.
And by that I mean, it might mean holding boundaries better, you know, and not sort of so people pleasing, for example. Or, you know, it might be looking after your health more or whatever that thing is, you know, there's probably a whole host of things. And that's why those things can be really helpful to work out in therapy because it's complex and it's long, it's a life practice. So if you've spent, I don't know how old that person is, but if you spent the last 20 years of your life not feeling enough,
it's not going to change overnight. It's going to take time. So, you know. So, Hans says, what are some of the best ways to cure burnout? So, the thing about burnout and stress is that, you know, stress can be good for us, helps us to perform, helps us to stay alert and all those things, but it's made to be short term. So, you know, that burnout is really your body saying,
Enough already. I need a rest and so they really the only way to stop it from can you know? I think the tendency is to experience burnout then take some huge break and be so that you know Have a big you know a couple months off go on holiday, whatever Feel better and then go back to life as it was and then you're gonna have the same thing again So I think it has to be consistent replenishment if you're
Putting stress on your body and your mind. It needs to get something back for that. It needs replenishment So, you know you you have to structure your life in a way that gives you enough rest to replenish Otherwise burnout will happen at some point. Yeah, I really like that Like I think a lot of people decide I'm gonna go on a holiday for two weeks and then I'll be cured But then they go straight back into that pattern
Yeah, yeah. And again, a lot of it is that pressure, isn't it? To constantly be productive or constantly be doing something or earning something or that kind of thing. And I mean, how do you manage it with, you know, this stuff could go on forever, right? You could spend 24 hours a day here. How do you replenish? Usually like to leave here by six or at least not have anything in the evening so that I can like hang out with friends. And I know that...
For me, what I need to do is schedule stuff in that I feel bad breaking a commitment to. So for example, if it's a dinner with friends, like today I've got someone coming over to my place for dinner at 9 p.m. So I just have to be done by 9 p.m. And that's a commitment that I have to take. I'm also trying to figure out like, can I take kickboxing lessons or join a kickboxing club that starts at 6 p.m. on a weekday to force me to leave here at 6 p.m. on a weekday? Because I think one of the issues with like,
Like all of this stuff is just so much fun. And when you're having fun, it's so easy to just like keep on doing it because it still feels fun and doesn't feel like work. Yeah. But I've been realizing recently that like taking a step back from that and actually thinking, you know what? The videos are still going to be there tomorrow. Nothing in this business is life and death. No one cares if a video is delayed or if we don't put out a newsletter or whatever. And actually being okay to take the foot off the gas in terms of consistency. Yeah. That's been really helpful in sort of
feeling better about this whole all of this stuff. Yeah, that trusting that it's it won't all disappear if you take a day off. Yeah, trusting that it's all good like the channel's growing even when we don't post out videos. So let's just stop posting videos. Do you take days off? Do you have like weekends off or anything? I don't think of them as like days off.
Because there's always like stuff going on. Yeah. It's really nice. Like, you know, when I came back from Pakistan a few days ago, it was a Sunday afternoon and I had nothing to do for the rest of the day. That was so nice. I like cleaned the house, did the laundry, cleaned the bathroom for the first time in a month. It's like, you know, little stuff like that. And then I invited a friend over for a takeaway. So I want to have more of those kind of lazy afternoons.
But then I always think that, and then an opportunity will arise. Someone will email me who's like some angel investor investing in their creative economy. Oh, that's kind of cool. Let's hang out. And then all of a sudden the social calendar is now booked up again. So it's a balancing act. It's a good problem to have. I guess it's kind of the same with you. When you have so many opportunities coming your way, it's like you want to say yes to a lot of things.
And it's that balance between actually making time for yourself as well. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the idea is, is never putting yourself under the pressure to do it perfectly. It's just a balance. And as long as you're aware that it's a balance, then you can just check in and see when is it out of balance and when do I need to kind of redirect and take some time back and stuff. Nice. Oh, we've got a question from Twitter from Nuno Bello who says, how would someone strike a balance with welcoming feedback, um,
while also, and being exposed, while also trying not to be consumed by other people's opinions? It's tricky, isn't it? Because you kind of, we were talking about earlier, working out whose opinions matter most to you. I mean, criticism always stings, doesn't it? If somebody, you know, even someone you don't know in the street says something disapproving or criticizing, it's going to hurt. It's not pleasant because we're social beings. We're made to feel that.
But I think it can really help to get clarity on whose opinions matter most and being able to recognize that you can't please everyone. So if you've got your set of values clear so that you know why you do what you do and then recognizing that some people will like that, some people won't.
And that's okay. So, you know, if you set your sort of life so that you are trying to be approved of by everybody all of the time, you're going to feel like a failure pretty quick because you're human. Nice.
Oh, we've got Tintin Smith who asks, what's the psychology of research behind having a defined purpose or calling or why? I'm torn between the Simon Sinek school of thought that we all should have a why and how we can all have one clear definable why. And the other side of it, which is that where we're actually not evolved to have a single defined need. What would love to hear your thoughts on this? Yeah, I think coming from this sort of
acceptance and commitment therapy stuff, I tend to go with, you know, life is layered and complex and you have different aspects of your life and the values in those different aspects will be different. So I think I probably tend to go for the lots of whys in lots of areas.
rather than that kind of really narrow focus but it's different for everybody yeah yeah that's kind of the way that i approached as well if i think what's my number one calling in life i'm like i don't know but if i think kind of roughly what i want in each of these different domains like the wheel of life and all this stuff now i think okay i have more of an idea of potentially what yeah a good life looks like yeah connor says what's been your favorite experience as a result of you blowing up on tiktok
My favourite experience. This is one of them, being here, of course. Favourite experience, God, what have we done? I've got to try and think now. So it's just bizarre, actually, you know, from someone who was
sat in therapy room every day and seeing one person at a time to go to sort of wild events and not wild events but things like parties yeah I mean things like I mean I was included in the female lead book this year sort of recognising different sort of females that are
shaping the future apparently. And so to go to an event like that where there were lots of really inspiring people who are doing incredible things was amazing. So doing this, you know, I think it's meeting all these incredible people who have
brilliant stories and they're doing really interesting stuff and and having such a reach it's really i mean it is probably yeah meeting all the different people and stuff yeah love it all right julie thank you so much for coming on um links to the book which is coming out soon january 6th january the 6th and we're putting this out once the book is out right amber cool so it's out now the book is now out so that'll be linked in the video description and we will put an image up on screen because we don't have a physical copy just yet yeah and i can't wait to get it in my hands to stick it on our little bookshelf
It's gonna feature prominently in our backgrounds. - Next Elon Musk. - Next Elon Musk, yeah, exactly. It's gonna be great, yeah. Thank you so much for coming on. Any final messages, parting wisdom to share with the audience? - No, just thanks so much and yeah, what a great experience. Thank you. - Love it, all right, thanks. All right, so that's it for this week's episode of Deep Dive. Thank you so much for watching or listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned in the podcast
are gonna be linked down in the video description or in the show notes, depending on where you're watching or listening to this. If you're listening to this on a podcast platform, then do please leave us a review on the iTunes store. It really helps other people discover the podcast. Or if you're watching this in full HD or 4K on YouTube, then you can leave a comment down below and ask any questions or any insights or any thoughts about the episode. That would be awesome. So yeah, thank you very much for listening. I'll catch you hopefully in the next episode.