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Hey, it's Nancy. Before we begin today, I just wanted to let you know that you can listen to Crime Beat early and ad-free on Amazon Music, included with Prime. A listener's note. The following episode contains coarse language, adult themes, and content of a violent and disturbing nature and may not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.
Today, I'm going to do something a little bit different. If you watch CSI, or really any crime show on TV, this episode is for you.
Forensic crime scenes investigators play a critical role in solving cases, including the ones we share on this podcast. Just because somebody can't tell you what happened doesn't mean that we don't have resources to actually figure out what happened for them. One of the most high-profile stories I've ever covered began with the disappearance of a little boy and his grandparents.
It's one example where the careful collection, examination and analysis of forensic evidence was essential in solving the case. There was a time factor that came with that and it was moving fast. Normally we get exhibits and they get sent off to the lab. In this particular case, we actually had them driven to the lab so that the DNA analysis could be done quickly on it so that we could determine because
As I go into a scene, yes, there's blood there, but I can't tell you who owns that blood until we actually do a DNA analysis and the lab has to do that for us. So that became a key factor in this particular file so that we could actually determine, you know, if the three individuals were actually all injured in this particular case. So this was a tough one because you're working on that premise that, you know what, these people are still alive and time is of the essence.
I'm Nancy Hixt, a crime reporter for Global News. Today on Crime Beat, a special look inside the forensic crime scenes unit with expert investigator Sergeant Jody Arns. This is a look at how the evidence tells a story. Sergeant Jody Arns is an expert forensic crime scenes investigator with the Calgary Police Service.
She's investigated some of the most high-profile cases I've covered, including the triple murder of Nathan O'Brien and his grandparents, Alvin and Kathy Lickness, and the death of five-year-old Talia Marsman and her mother, Sarah Bailey. Police believe Talia was likely killed before the Amber Alert was even issued early Tuesday morning.
Again, this is just heartbreak. I can't even begin to tell you the mood here at Calgary Police Headquarters. But this has affected all of us. And, you know, everyone all across the country has hoped for a positive result. And so this is just devastating news that little Talia was found dead. In that case, Sergeant Jody Arns examined the duct tape that bound Sarah. I need to warn you, these details are graphic.
At that time, Talia was still missing, so she had to work fast. The tape would prove to be key evidence in the case. Arnes located three partial prints from the sticky side of the tape that was wrapped around Sarah's lower jaw and head. During the trial, she told jurors two of the partial fingerprints on the tape were a match to Edward Downey.
He was later convicted of two counts of first-degree murder. You can hear more about that case in a special two-part series in Season 1 of Crime Beat. Sergeant Jodi Arns wanted to be a police officer her entire life. What might surprise you is that she started her career in law enforcement a little bit later.
In 2006, at 37 years old, Arns applied to the Calgary Police Service and moved across the country from Newfoundland.
When I went through classes and training for the Calgary Police Service, I had 22-year-olds in my class. So I was a 37-year-old who was now trying to compete with these... And I shouldn't say compete, but I was trying to stay at the same level as these 22-year-olds. So it was even more of a challenge because it was like, there's no way I'm going to let this kid beat me, right? So, yeah, like...
It doesn't matter what age you are, if you're determined to do something. And like I said, for me, policing was something I always wanted to do. But I started a family early and then things kind of just rolled along and it just wasn't in my area that I could actually do it at the time. So once I finally got a bit older and I finally said, okay, if I don't do it now, I'm never going to have an opportunity.
After several years as a street patrol officer, Arns transitioned into the Forensic Crime Scenes Unit, where she's been for about 11 years. I've always been the type of person who enjoys putting puzzles together and trying to figure out riddles and that type of thing. So getting the opportunity to actually look for the different pieces of the puzzle to help put it together has always intrigued me. And I think that's probably what
drew me into the forensic side of things. Because if there was something that I could do, like an examination or some kind of a test to figure something out, to either say, yes, this is what happened or no, this isn't what happened. It's always been just a keen interest of mine. And once I got a little bit older and saw that opportunity within policing, I kind of jumped on the bandwagon for it.
As of December of 2020, Arnds has attended 120 major scenes. That includes serious assaults or homicide investigations. She started her work in the crime scenes unit as a general forensic investigator, doing everything from fingerprint comparisons to footwear examinations. Interestingly enough, it was TV shows like CSI that first piqued her interest in forensics.
But Arndt said what you see on TV, where an officer walks into a room, takes a quick look around, and then explains what happens, all within a few minutes, is a stark contrast to what happens in reality. We don't always have our bad guy within 45 minutes. That would be fantastic if we could actually do that. But that's not quite the case. Many of the investigations that we're involved in can take hours
anywhere from a couple of days up to years before they actually get solved. And it involves a lot of work in regards to the investigators, their side, but also from the forensic crime scene side. So we have to process scenes, we have to process exhibits, things need to get sent off to the lab for analysis, and it all takes time. So as much as it would be fantastic to have
Our crimes start and then within the hour tell you who the actual offenders were. It would be great, but unfortunately it's not quite like that. Arne sent me a quote that she heard at a crime scenes presentation. It both sums up what she does and inspires her.
It reads, "Forensics is the area of policing where an investigator has the opportunity to speak for those who are afraid to speak, to speak for those who refuse to speak, and especially to speak for those who are unable to speak."
whether we're doing an investigation which involves, say, a domestic assault or something along those lines where you still have your victims that are living and they're still fearful or they're intimidated by the whole court process, then we can actually kind of do the investigation and help find those pieces so that we don't have to put them on the spot more.
And also, obviously, when we're doing death investigations, it gives us an opportunity because they're not there to tell us what happened. We can actually examine the surroundings and seeing different areas of their lives, actually put the pieces of the puzzle together and speak for them. So once I had actually seen that quote in a presentation that I had a few years back when I was doing my forensic studies and
it kind of really hit home to me. And I thought like, wow, like that's one of the best quotes I think that I've ever seen when it comes to forensics. So that's why I've kind of incorporated it into my PowerPoints as well, because I hope that it actually lets people sit back for a second and think that, you know what, just because somebody can't tell you what happened doesn't mean that we don't have resources to actually figure out what happened for them.
This summer, I went to the Calgary Police Forensic Crime Scenes Lab and I have to tell you it's a fascinating place and it's amazing to see how far technology and advancements in science have come. Investigators have so many tools and techniques at their disposal to help uncover what happened at each crime scene they examine.
As I mentioned earlier, Arns is an expert in one particular field of forensics. She's a bloodstain pattern analyst. I had a, one of my co-workers was setting to retire.
And he was looking for somebody to actually train to take over. And I was relatively new in the unit just a couple of years in. And then I decided that I was going to pursue the training within the bloodstain. And he trained me within that expertise. The scenes she's been to are graphic.
It's her job to specifically focus on the blood that's been shed and then explain the story it tells. First starting off in forensics, it was kind of hard to decompartmentalize everything and to make it less human. But in order to be able to do the job successfully, you need to take that human factor out of it and you have to kind of look at it. Okay, this is my job. I'm trying to assist the investigators and the courts. So it's my job to...
be scientific about my approach and how I do this. And that's kind of how I look at it is I take that human factor out and I put it to the side and I look at doing it as the science behind it and to see how and why things happen the way they did.
I will document any blood that's visible within the scene or blood that's not visible. I can use different chemicals for it. So my job as a blood stain pattern analysis is to basically go in, document the blood and interpret what's there so that I can either provide information to the investigators as to who was in the scene, what would have happened, what kind of an incident occurred. It can give us all kinds of different information.
These investigations can take time, and Arne said it's important to keep an open mind and to never rush to a conclusion.
I'll look at different patterns. And then what I'll do is I'll go back to the lab, I'll review my photos, my documents, and then I'll look at it and say, okay, well, I believe that, you know, there was an impact in this area, or I believe this pattern was the result of a cast off from a weapon. So once I've done that, then I will actually try and reproduce that back in the lab to kind of corroborate that, yes, that is what happened.
Before I take you through a typical day, I need to tell you there is no such thing as a typical day in the Forensic Crime Scenes Unit. No day is ever the same with us because you have different victims, you have different crimes, you have different incidences, you have different scenes that things happen in. It can be indoors, it can be outdoors, it can be in a vehicle, it can be in a park, in a business. So it's not really a typical type of day.
The day we recorded this interview, Arnds just got off a night shift. Crime is unpredictable. It doesn't keep a schedule. And her expertise can be needed at any time.
I mean, technically speaking, we do 10 and 12 hour shifts and my schedule shows me as four days on, four days off. But if I have a major scene, I've worked, you know, 12 days in a row because you have different scenes that you have to process. You have different exhibits that need to get dealt with. You have time sensitive things.
So, you know, ideally, yes, we get our days off and we still make sure we have, you know, the proper amount of rest and everything in between, but it's quite demanding. And yeah, we could work 12 days in a row. We could work 15 days in a row, um,
I have a team of six members usually, and we work a shift together. And as the calls come in, we kind of delegate and we'll attend different calls. It can be anything from a break and enter to taking photos of an assault victim to a major scene which involves a homicide.
So basically, as the calls come in, we'll attend the calls and we'll do our examinations. Then we have to return. And of course, we have to have some pretty stringent documentation because a lot of our files don't necessarily go to court right away. And it could be a couple of years down the road. So within that time span, we could...
attend multiple major scenes. So if you don't have meticulous notes, it makes it a little bit difficult down the road. After the initial scene examination, there's still a lot of work that happens back in the crime scenes lab. And for that, investigators rely heavily on science.
Because we have the laws of physics that we can follow, we can actually do different experiments. It's reproducible, it's repeatable, and you should get the exact same results every time you do it. So because we can actually do that, we can actually go through the scene and see what actually happened.
I have, I guess, some movable walls that I can use and I usually cover them with cardboard, not plastic like Dexter. I actually use cardboard and I will put it up and then based on my scene and what I kind of have an idea of what I think may or may not have happened will depend on what I use back at the office.
So if I think that there was a hammer that would have been used in a particular incident, I'll actually set up a scenario where I can use the hammer and I'll impact a liquid blood source that I've set up and I'll see if I can reproduce that pattern. If I think that it was a fist or a foot that was used, I'll set it up in that way so that I can reproduce using my fist or a foot. By now I'm sure it's clear, doing this type of specialized forensic investigative work
requires a lot of education and ongoing training. For...
Bloodstain Pattern Analysts, we actually have a two-year understudy program that we undertake. And that basically is, there's certain courses that we have to complete within that time frame. There is a huge array of articles and books that we have to read in relation to the subject discipline. And we work with a mentor as well. And we have to attend so many actual scenes as well as so many training scenes.
before we have our final boards, which is a certification that we do internally. And then you are basically completed your understudy program.
you can continue on and do some further training. And for me, I have, and I've actually done my international certification as well in the bloodstain pattern analysis. So I've been qualified as a certified, international certified BPA. And I think I was the first one for Calgary actually.
So that was quite an honor to bestow. But it is a lot of training and it is a lot of reading and maintaining that expertise in order to be qualified within court. Forensics is one of the fields that it doesn't matter how long you've been doing it. And if you do a training course, you legit have to study and prep and train.
It takes a bit to pass it. You don't just go in and just write it and laugh and joke and party at a, you know, any kind of a training course. Forensics is definitely intense. And if you're going to maintain an expertise just with the amount of technology that changes and the different progressions that we have in science as we move through, you can't just learn at the beginning of your field and then not keep learning.
So it is a continually learning, knowledge-based type of a career, which is intense and like
Like I said, when your brain cells kind of get full, I think it's time to say, OK, yeah, I need to do something a little less intense for sure. Another thing that TV shows leave out is how much math is involved in forensics, something that Arne said took some getting used to. To be honest with you, like to all those kids at my school,
The evidence collected by forensic crime scene investigators
along with their findings, are essential in solving cases and making sure justice is served. So processing a scene, like I said, the documentation and the processing side of it is quite meticulous and you have to be very careful when you are collecting these exhibits.
So that involves making sure that we're wearing the proper protective gear so that we don't actually cross contaminate, so that we're collecting pure samples, that type of thing. We have different chemicals that we can use, as I had mentioned earlier, so that it can either assist us in locating blood if it's not immediately visible to the naked eye. We do have different chemicals that we can use. So you need to understand, I guess, the physics and the chemical properties behind it so that you know which one to use.
There's a bunch of different courses. There's one that relates to how blood reacts with different fabrics.
So as you can appreciate, there's different weaves and there's different types of fabrics. There's different types of cloths. They can all be chemically treated. So all of that has a factor that you have to look at as well when you're doing examinations on clothing. Because this is science and forensic evidence can be very technical, Arns puts in a lot of effort to try and simplify her findings for court, something that's not only great for jurors,
but also for journalists like myself covering these criminal trials. I find it very interesting and fun to actually try and explain it so that people understand it. Because like you said, not a lot of people think on the side of science to understand how and why it works. So when I can actually explain it more in layman's terms so that people understand it and you get that head nod when you're
discussing it or trying to explain it in a trial and you actually see the head nods from the jurors, then you get that sense of accomplishment so that they can kind of understand more of where and why you're doing what you do. - Arnds told me she takes special care to avoid learning specific details of a case
until her investigation is complete. As a forensic investigator, one of our main jobs is to basically examine the scenes as we find them and to be able to present the evidence as it's found.
So for me, as that forensic investigator, I don't want to know too many details because as the investigation goes on, the investigators learn more information and more details about different things. So if they tell you all that information, it's quite easy for you to get distracted by that. And then if you just find one answer that
fits in with that then you kind of stop what you're doing so for me i like to go in with as little information as possible so that i can examine the scene um with an open mind and to be able to actually look at it and then afterwards if they ask okay well this did this happen and i'll say well based on what i'm seeing yes that could have happened or no it could not have happened
Arns has listened to Crime Beat, and she admits that's not always easy. As she's investigated several of these cases, and it's through the podcast that she finally learns more about these crimes and those impacted. ♪
Well, I think part of me not learning all the details also helps keep the human side of it out for me so that I don't get as emotionally involved with it. Because a lot of the times that human factor is hard to deal with when you're trying to do your job. So for me, not having those extra details keeps it as my job and strictly scientific.
Whereas afterwards, when you listen to the podcast, and a lot of the times it has all the emotions in because you're interviewing the family members or the close friends, that type of thing. And you see that human factor and how everybody is affected by the incident that occurred.
So that's what makes it difficult. So after the fact, when I listen to your podcast, then it brings all that emotion out and it makes you realize that the things that you did, how it's affected that whole investigation. And to be honest, like I always know that there's that human factor and you experience that much more so when you have to go to trial. So when I go and I have to testify,
A lot of the times the actual family members or the friends have not heard or aren't aware of obviously some of the horrific details that we observe as forensic crime scenes people. So when we testify and you hear those gasps in the courtroom because they are upset or they start to cry over the details that you provide, that's always really, really hard.
when you listen to the podcast and stuff as well, like I said, that adds that into it and gives you that personal side of it. So there are certain ones that obviously affect you and pull on your heartstrings a lot more. And I think
I guess that's the human side. It's kind of nice to know that we're still human, even though we see all these horrific things that humans can do to each other. It's still nice to see that, you know what, even though we've seen all this bad stuff, we're still human and we still get affected by it as well. There are some exceptions where it's essential she learns about the victims before even arriving on the scene.
One of them is a case where a little boy and his grandparents disappeared. And at that time, there was hope they might still be alive. Yeah, that one was a particularly tough one. And of course, when this investigation started, there was always that hope that the family members and Nathan would be found. So you did need information when you were going into the house on certain things. So
And having the personal details always makes it a little bit harder. And like I said, it gives it that human side, which...
pulls at your heartstrings and makes it tougher to do. I will be sharing a special Crime Beat series about this case in the coming months. And in that, Sergeant Arnes will explain more about her work and how it played a critical role in the investigation. I was not the lead forensic team on this one. I was pulled in as the lead bloodstained person.
So they had asked me to attend the scene. And initially, they wanted me to attend with a medical examiner to do a walkthrough and to basically determine if we felt that, you know, the three people were all deceased. Is it possible that they're still alive? Can you come in and have a look at the scene? And because there was still that possibility that we could find them alive, it
It was a much more intense type of an investigation because, like I said, you didn't have any finalization on whether
they were actually deceased or if they're still alive and being held somewhere there was a time factor that came with that and it was moving fast normally we get exhibits and they get sent off to the lab in this particular case we actually had them driven to the lab so that the dna analysis could be done quickly on it so that we could determine because
As I go into a scene, yes, there's blood there, but I can't tell you who owns that blood until we actually do a DNA analysis. And the lab has to do that for us.
So that became a key factor in this particular file so that we could actually determine, you know, if the three individuals were actually all injured in this particular case. So this was a tough one because you're working on that premise that, you know what, these people are still alive and time is of the essence. So we need to do things, but you still need to make sure you're doing it properly and you're following your procedures. But we need to do it in a manner that we can get answers quicker.
I was the only crime scene person in the residence while I was doing this actual examination. And we had our continuity officers as well on the outside. But I was in there and I was examining the residence. And of course, it was a multi-level house. And as you know, houses creak and they make noises and that type of thing. So on a couple of different occasions, I heard a noise and I
It was that sense that, you know what, maybe he is hiding in the house somewhere. And I would run and I would check the area that I had heard the noise. I would dig through the closet, even though I knew full well that we had investigators and we had members that had attended and searched the resident quite thoroughly to ensure that there was nobody in there. It was just that.
in the back of my mind when I heard the noise I'm like you know what he's a little tiny kid hopefully he managed to run away and he's just hiding and he's been afraid to come out so like that was a different aspect of it as well because you're still hoping that he's alive and he's somewhere in the house and you know what it's going to have a happy ending and we'll find him right. The entire country and beyond held out hope Nathan and his grandparents would be found alive
That included the investigators who worked around the clock to get answers and later worked around the clock to get evidence so there would be justice for Nathan and his grandparents. This has probably been the toughest while that I've worked on, A, because like you said, I'm a mother and I have boys.
So I remember my boys being that age, the same age as Nathan. My boys both had big blue eyes and blonde curly hair as well. So it was a really tough file emotionally and it was a drain for sure on the emotion side of things. But that being said, the mere fact that
The evidence that I collected and the evidence that I presented in court helped the court make a decision on the first-degree murder of the little boy as well as the grandparents. It was quite a humbling experience, but it was quite rewarding to know that the work that I did could help in this file. Arns is very close with her sons, and her oldest has now followed in her footsteps.
He serves as a member of the Calgary Police Service. So I remember when my son actually told me that he wanted to be a police officer, I thought to myself, wow, that's quite interesting. It's not very often that you hear a son say that he wants to do what his mom does for a living. So he made up his mind when he was 15 years old that that's what he wanted to do. And he basically laid out everything that he did to gear towards that. And he started on the job when he was 20 years old.
So he was an early bloomer for a police officer and he just thoroughly loves it. So it's quite rewarding to watch him grow in this field as well.
On the day he became a police officer, Arns was the one to present her son with his badge. They have a very special bond. He understands the stresses she faces in a way few others can. That is a super important part of this job because when you look at what we do, I mean, our, what we do on a normal basis is not normal.
So to actually be able to have people surrounding you that you can discuss that with is a huge part of being able to stay healthy in this job. Because like I said, we see the worst of the worst and what humans are capable of doing to each other is quite unfathomable, to be honest with you. So the fact that I have my...
my son doing this job and he can appreciate it. Now I have my other son as well, who is a young adult and we talk about things, but
He doesn't see the policing side of things. So it's definitely a different perspective. And it's nice to have that person who, you know, what if I come home and I sit down and I have a little cry? I can call him and talk to him and say, hey, this is what I went through today. And he gets it. After 15 years of policing, Arns has learned the value of talking about the difficult subject matter and taking time to decompress.
It kind of comes in ebbs and flows whereby things bother you and then things don't bother you. And you need to have a good support in place and you need to have different vices so that you can actually de-stress yourself.
So I love to bake. I do that. I love being outdoors. I take the dog out. That's my stressor to get away from everything. I leave my phones at home and I go and I de-stress with the dog. And I have a really great family support and I have fantastic friends that I've got that support base that I can actually kind of get away from work and de-stress that way.
Arne said there are some investigative habits that are tough to turn off, even when she's not working. Even when we go out for dinner, I remember sitting down and like, I'll pick up a glass and I'll look at the fingerprints that are left behind on it. Or if I walk out through a store, I make sure I don't touch the door and leave my fingerprints behind. Right. And that's just me being that way. And like my kids laugh at me because I do that. But.
That's what policing does to you. It just kind of gets you in a particular mindset. But then you have to remind yourself, you know what, you need to leave that behind sometimes and just relax. So taking the two weeks off or going to hang out with family on a vacation is definitely something that has to be done. When Arndt first started, she might have been one of only a few women in the room. But policing is changing and she's become not only an expert, but an
but an inspiration. Years ago, it was a man's world for sure, but it's definitely changed quite a bit. And there's a lot of pretty strong police women that are around that I've looked up to and have gotten support from and have helped me get to where I am. But I'm just a true believer that it doesn't matter if you're a male or a female or whatever,
you know, your race or anything like that. If you have a passion and you love doing something and you're good at it, then the other factors shouldn't come into play. So for me, that's, you know what, this is what I've always wanted to do. And the fact that I can actually do it well and help investigators is just a bonus for me.
A lot of people ask me how I can continue covering crime, covering graphic subject matter for so many years. And I admit it can be difficult. But just think, the work Sergeant Arns does is so much more difficult.
She sees all of the very worst of humanity firsthand. It's just, it's one of those things where in order to be an expert within a field, you have to continually work in it. And it's a lot of hard work to get up to that knowledge base.
So and I still love it and I still enjoy putting the pieces of the puzzle together. So I'm not quite sure how much longer I would do it. I do believe that there is a shelf life and at some point you just need to kind of say, you know what, OK, I've seen enough.
bad stuff and I'm just going to change my career a little bit and do something different. So yeah, I don't know. I think that's a hard question. But I do believe that as long as you have the proper checks and balances in place and you deal with these harder files as you go through, then you can extend it pretty good because we do have a pretty good support system.
I have to tell you, it's a rare thing to have an expert forensic crime scenes investigator do an interview. It's been an honor to feature Sergeant Arns on this episode and share her passion for a job she excels at.
And I don't want the spotlight. And that's what I have a hard time with. But you know what? Like we do such good work that it's a sin not to be able to show that positive side of it. And that's the only reason why I did it. Honestly, if you could do it without my name being in there, I'd have been totally fine with that. Right. Because I don't want that glory. I don't want to be the front and center because it's not me that makes the difference. It's the entire service and the investigations. Because like I said, I love this job and
to be able to actually share it. I'm not normally that type of person. I don't even like standing up and talking in front of people. But if I can actually help people understand what we do and they can see what we do, like it just, yeah, it just makes it all worthwhile. Thank you for joining me for this special look at forensics.
I also want to thank Sergeant Jodi Arns for her willingness to be so open and candid. She's a very busy investigator, and I really appreciate her time. Crime Beat is written and produced by me, Nancy Hixt, with producer Dila Velasquez.
Audio editing and sound design is by Rob Johnston. Special thanks to photographer-editor Danny Lantella for his work on this episode. And thanks to Chris Bassett, the acting VP of National and Network News for Global News. I would love to have you tell a friend about this podcast, and you can help me share these important stories by rating and reviewing Crime Beat on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.
You can find me on Twitter at Nancy Hixt, on Facebook at Nancy Hixt Crime Beat, and I'd love to have you join me for added content on Instagram at nancy.hixt. That's N-A-N-C-Y dot H-I-X-T. Thanks again for listening. Please join me next time.