UK Creative Agency Recruitment Trends, with Phil Cookson
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Transcript: **Jenny  **00:02So on today's episode, I'm really thrilled to have Phil Cookson) with me. Phil is director of Creative Resource). He's also the cofounder of School of Thought), a not for profit organisation with the objective of helping to develop the creative sector in the north of England. So I'd love to dive into that bit, Phil, later. And he's got 17 years experience in the creative and marketing sectors. And that's one of the big reasons that I've invited Phil on today. He's so active online, he has a very buoyant agency, recruitment agency. And I've asked him particularly to share his observations, thoughts, and tips for recruitment, both for creative agencies and also for candidates. So Phil , a massive welcome to you. **Phil  **00:49Thank you. Thanks for having me, Jenny. Really looking forward to it. **Jenny  **00:52Yeah, me too. I can't wait. So would you mind first of all, Phil just kicking off by spending a few minutes talking about you, your background, what you do now and who you help. **Phil  **01:02Yeah, so as you said, 17 years in recruitment now for the creative, and marketing sector, predominantly agencies. We also do it with brands as well. We focus primarily on the north of England, really they're our heartlands that we like to stick within and really get the relationships deep, which which you can do when you've been doing it as long as I have you, you tend to have some really long standing relationships, which is really good. We're now a team of eight, hopefully soon to be a much larger team if I can find some staff for myself, which is it's not very easy. It's quite a funny thing, isn't it? Recruiters saying they're finding recruiting stuff very difficult. So, yeah, hopefully bigger team soon. And then I'm co founder School of Thought. School of Thought's been around for six years now in the North. We basically run a 12 week intensive, creative course and competition that happens every year in Manchester. And we're now in our second year in Leeds. We've had, I think, by the end of this current year, we'll have had 113 people who've gone through the School of Thought programme. Every week is hosted by a different agency in the north, they set the group a brief, and we come up with some ideas to crack it. And it's a lot of fun. And I think the creatives that do it would all probably agree they've all come out of it having learned a huge amount of skills and experience. And we think we have one of the best First Prizes of anything going as well. So the winner's prize is a trip to Cannes Lions, so which is pretty life changing for the people who've been.  Unfortunately, with Cannes not having run for last year, initially, I've got a little backlog of people I need to send. So hopefully next year,  I'll be very heavily involved in my travel agent duties of getting several people over to Cannes, the tickets and the accommodation and things. It's a lot of fun, School of Thought. **Jenny  **03:23It sounds like a fantastic prize. And is that open to just creatives or is it across the board? For anyone in the agency? **Phil  **03:31Yeah, across the board. We've had quite a few account handlers do it. We've had quite a few planners, quite a few marketing people from client side as well. So but , anybody who thinks you know, ideas are important. And I think we'd all agree they are. I think anybody who wants to get better at developing ideas, recognising big ideas, pitching big ideas. Yes, it's for anybody. And we have people just coming into the industry through to senior people as well. So it's a real cross section of people from different backgrounds and different levels. **Jenny  **04:10And just briefly Phil, why did, how did that come about? Why did you start that? **Phil  **04:14It came about with my cofounder, David is from Australia, and he had experience with the program in Australia called the Award School), which is run on a similar style. And when he came to Manchester, he said to me, have you got anything like this in Manchester, or even the UK? And I said, No, I don't think we have. So I said to him why don't you do something like that? He said, right I will do but you're going to help me. So I got roped in to help him because he had the idea of how it would work and I had all the connections in the agencies that we needed to get agreement to come on board and do it with us. So that was where we originally came from. **Jenny  **04:59It's actually a very shrewd move, isn't it because it's, it not only works for the individuals who are taking part in the program , but it also creates kind of an event, a program  where you're then developing more relationships with the industry. So it's kind of a win win, isn't it? 05:16Yeah, it's great because I get to spend time  with all the agencies,  through the program. We, COVID allowing, we always have a big event at the end of it in Manchester, or Leeds, where we hopefully get as many agencies and creative people down as possible, usually 150 to 200 people there having drinks, looking at what's been produced over the 12 weeks, and it's a real celebration of what the 12 people have done. And also a chance for the industry in those cities to come together. And School of Thought is about helping the creative ecosystem, in those cities. It's by the agencies, for the agencies and I see myself as a facilitator, really, who brings it together.   **Jenny  **06:08Fantastic, fantastic. So listen, Phil, I'm really keen, and I'm sure the listeners are to get from your side, what what you're seeing in terms of the general trends in the creative agency recruitment market currently, and perhaps since the whole COVID thing's happened, and what are you seeing? 06:29This year, in particular, it seems like everybody's trying to hire. It really does seem like every agency that I speak to us, has really come through last year in in really fine fettle. Most conversations last year, people were saying things are okay,  we're going along fine. And then it almost seems like at the start of this year, clients have pressed a button, and all of a sudden, everybody's snowed under. So the majority of the roles we're seen and that we're recruiting for, they're all growth, they're all new roles. There's very few replacement roles. The majority of agencies seems to be growing and getting bigger. And, certainly the agency market in the North is really vibrant at the moment. **Jenny  **07:26Is it growth within a certain type of role, or is it across the board, every type of role for agencies? **Phil  **07:33It's really across the board, I mean, that there are huge amounts of roles in account handling and creative, but, even in niches like traffic managers, and studio managers, and you don't see many of those roles about but people are hiring them because they're getting busier. And the whole range of digital marketing roles are constantly growing, paid media, and in particular, is one that's really going up and up and up. But it's really across the whole range of types of agency roles. **Jenny  **08:10And are you finding that there are the candidates available? Or is that the balance that everyone's looking for someone but no one's available? **Phil  **08:18At the moment the balance between supply and demand is very out of our focus. There's far more demand than supply at the moment. There's general shortages in all areas. We certainly feel from some of the conversations we're having, that there's a lot of people who have perhaps been safe in their role for the last 15 months since the pandemic started telling us that they're putting their career moves on hold, until they feel there's a bit more confidence that things are back to normal. So there is a, like I say it's wildly out of kilter between supply and demand. And I must say in all the years I've been recruiting, there aren't many years where supply and demand are equal. I can probably think of two years maybe in the last 17-18 years, where you might argue that supply and demand are equal. Very often, it's one way or the other. But I've never seen it quite so out of kilter. **Jenny  **09:29How are agencies responding? Are they putting up their salaries? Are they  doing a mixture of coming to you as a recruitment agency, but also doing a lot of their recruitment themselves? How are they responding to the lack of candidates, because that must be hugely frustrating. **Phil  **09:47It's difficult and I think agencies are coming to us they're doing their own networks and and their own advertising as well to try and get a shortlist and I think what we've found working with agencies that have successfully recruited this year is they've moved away from this thought that they must interview four people for a job. If they can get their head around the fact that they might only interview one person, and they need to compare that person to their own criteria, and then make a decision. Salaries, yes, they are going up. And I think people are willing to pay good money for good people. I have not seen too many examples of salaries going ridiculous, which I'm glad, because that can send the whole market flying upwards if, all of a sudden, one agency or a couple of agencies start paying 10,000 pounds more for what other agencies are paying it forces everybody up I don't think anybody wants to see that. But at the same time, if there's a good candidate available, I think you need to pay them a good wage to secure them otherwise someone else will. **Jenny  **11:11Absolutely. So I'm going to come back to this topic a little bit later, because I'd love to hear more tips and advice that you would give to agencies. I'm just interested, obviously, we've got a candidate shortage. What is the industry doing to attract new talent  into the agency world? Are we doing a good job? **Phil  **11:30I don't think we are. Well, I think we attract talent that wants to come into it agencies. But I think agencies generally are quite nervous about bringing people in, without any agency experience.  It's almost like a big thing that if you haven't got agency experience, you won't be able to do the job, you won't be able to understand what we do. And I don't think it's quite that simple. And I don't think it's quite that true. I think, there are people who are  maybe they've been in house, and they want to try agency. And there's still a nervousness about bringing them in. But I was speaking to an agency a few weeks ago, a talent manager at an agency and we were talking about this issue. And she said, well, brands are quite happy to take people from agencies who've never worked in a brand before, why aren't we happy to do the same? So there are people trying to get into agencies, but I do feel there's a bit of nervousness about people without agency experience. **Jenny  **12:41And why do you think that is? **Phil  **12:43I think you do find most agencies, when you do talk to them about that they've probably had a bad experience at some point of somebody who's come in from an in house role and not worked out or not enjoyed it. And I think that some, in some cases, that one bad experience puts them off. You've got a bad apple, so you throw away the bunch type thing. And I feel that there is a little bit of that, in that type of thing. And also, I think sometimes we don't make enough of the fact that, particularly with account handling, there are other sectors where there are very strong B2B client services people that could probably be very well utilised by an agency and we don't, again, don't seem willing to look outside the box at people who've maybe come from a completely different type of industry, but have brilliant account handling and client services skills. **Jenny  **13:45I agree there. In a way, in my personal experience of employing people in the past that have been in-house like working as a marketing manager role, and then they come agency side, it's like a baptism of fire. And in my experience, it hasn't worked out. I can't say that. I mean, I can think of a few examples where it has so I'm not saying that this is, but I almost sympathise and empathise with the agencies that have said this, because I've seen it happen myself. I think the pace that we work in an agency is incredible. And if you're not used to that pace, or you're not used to juggling a million things,  it can very quickly say, Oh, God, I just I'm gonna go back to, you know, do you agree? Is that the kind of feedback that you're getting? **Phil  **14:33Yeah, and you're right. I've seen people who've who've tried to make that move, and it hasn't worked out. And you know, they haven't enjoyed it. And I think, for me, it's about like, trying to identify what type of experience they've got from an in house environment. And there's very different pace in, say, a retail brand than there would be in an engineering brand,  and so I think sometimes you've got to try and look between the lines, what type of experience they've got and where they've been, and what are their motivations for coming to an agency, because the ones that I've seen have made it successful are the ones that have come to me and said, I look at what my agency is doing and I just wished I was there rather than here. And I don't feel the pace is enough for me in my current role, I want to get into an agency because I want the pace and I want the variety. Because I think, especially when you start your career, and I would always advise this to anyone starting a career, when you get a first job offer, you often take it, if that happens to be client side, but  you might have the personality to suit an agency, you just didn't get, your first job offer wasn't an agency job. So sometimes and it happens the other way round, I've seen lots of people, two or three years in an agency in the first job, and they realise it's not for me, and they go the other way. And you've got to understand that sometimes people haven't been able to get that perfect job first time around. And it might be that  they realise through working for two or three years, I'd rather be on the other side of the fence and make use of those people that want to do that.  **Jenny  **16:15Yeah, that's fair enough. I mean, I suppose going back to the subject of attracting talent, I mean, are you seeing that a lot of agencies are interested in sort of graduates coming through? And do you do anything, because what occurred to me when you were talking there was the benefit of having someone involved in the recruitment process, a) because it's hugely time consuming but too that you can offer that kind of perspective on things that you can really talk about the candidate in, I don't like particularly like this word, but a holistic sense, you know, look at this, look at that, look at their motivation, so that's guiding them, is really valuable. **Phil  **16:51Yeah, I think agencies are, you know, interested in graduate talent. And I think we do an event every year called Two+Two), which is a full day event for marketing and creative students to work on a brief together, and we get around 50 different agencies to come down and spend the day with them, mentoring them. And lots of agencies pick up talent from that event. And also, you see a lot of the students, their eyes being open to actually what agencies do. Because I think there's definitely an issue there in terms of do graduates understand what agencies do and what roles are available. And we've we've found quite a few have gone into account handling off the back of that event, because they've met people from agencies who've talked to them about what they do, and what roles are available. And all of a sudden,  they've said to us, we had no idea this existed,  and I think that, and I don't know  quite why this has changed, but certainly, if you went back 10 or 15 years, if you put an ad out for a graduate account exec, you'd get lots of people applying with relevant degrees, perhaps with placement experience, you'd get a lot of people. Now, when those same ads go out, you get virtually nothing. And I don't know quite why that graduates now don't seem to either understand or be attracted to agency life in the same way that perhaps 15, 20, 30 years ago people did. So haven't got an answer for that as such. All I know, is that a lot of the unis that talk to us they don't feel that their students know a lot about agencies. So is the industry sort of portraying itself and communicating itself as well as it could do, is probably the question. **Jenny  **18:53I think you're on the money here. I think your event sounds fantastic. And obviously, we will include a link for anyone listening that that wants to get into the industry. Absolutely. I think, from my experience, the Pharmaceutical Marketing Society, they do an event for graduates, which is hugely beneficial, because they get to see...so I think I think you're on the money there. Also, I've spoken to new graduates that have joined an agency and have said to me, I had no idea what the hell, you know, and I thought this this company, this agency had a graduate scheme. So I think there's a real gap in the market there. **Phil  **19:31And I think, you know, as well, we see graduates coming out now, and I think graduate salary expectations have perhaps gone up in the last few years as well. And I'm not sure agency entry level salaries have gone up too match. Certainly, in the North, I think most agencies would say for an entry level grad, they'd probably looking to pay around 18k, maybe 20 if they had a placement year, but I would say most graduates, and the really good graduates, the ones that you want, they're looking for more than that. And you've got other industries, not necessarily,  maybe client side, but even tech startups and things like that, that will pay more. And you're not just competing for salary against a talent against the agency down the road, you're competing for it against in house roles, graduate schemes, tech companies. It'd not as simple as just saying, Oh, well, they want to be in an agency. So they'll come to us, you're competing in a wider, a wider ecosystem, really, than just agencies.   **Jenny  **20:43It's so true, Phil, and I think, and that's something I've heard also in the past is that the tech sector, are attracting our talent in a better way. And, you know, maybe we should be modelling what they're doing. That would be an interesting project to look at how the companies I mean, even the likes of Facebook, Google, Twitter, the big companies who are, Apple, the companies that everyone knows about in the tech industry, and that that probably to a graduate would seem a lot more exciting. But, you know, hey, I'm not 100% sure, like you say, but I think there's a massive gap here. **Phil  **21:17Yeah, and I think you're right, as well about saying that people who start in agencies at entry level are almost being left to their own devices, in a way, because agencies, especially small to medium sized agencies,  and in the North, we've got a lot of agencies that you would class of that size not having a focused talent function. And your development is almost left down to whether you get a good line manager or not. And often those line managers haven't been trained, perhaps in the right way, or even trained to manage a more junior member of staff. So you're almost getting people who don't fully know  what they're doing, managing and training somebody else.   **Jenny  **22:05It's the blind leading the blind, Phil, isn't it? **Phil  **22:07Yeah. And that's a difficulty and say, in terms of how do you get those people when they're in,  how do you help them to progress and develop and to grow and to feel like their career is going forward in the right direction? That's a real challenge. **Jenny  **22:27Okay. So that I think, again, you're on the money with this, because, yes, I don't know of many agencies with really comprehensive staff onboarding programmes .It's like here's the desk, this is the client, blah, blah, blah. So I like this, I think it's a good conversation to be having, because maybe it's going to bring to the agency's mind anyone listening, right, we need to focus some time here. But can you give me some examples of agencies that are attracting the talent? And why are they attracting that talent? **Phil  **22:58Yeah, I think certainly, as I was saying not focusing on, we must have a shortlist of four people is really important. And also hhose that are willing to hire on on culture fit and potential. So one of the things I've been saying quite recently, and I think it sums up what I've been talking about with a lot of agencies is don't look for a unicorn, if you look for unicorn, you might be disappointed. But if you can find a horse, and then you can add the horn yourself when they're inside the building, and it's sort of like the way I think agencies are attracting talent, the ones that are looking at it and going, Well, we might not find somebody who ticks 10 out of 10 boxes, but if we find someone that ticks eight out of 10, and is a great culture fit,  we can fill in those other gaps. And I think that's a really sort of clever and smart way of looking at it. At the moment, I think you've got to think in those ways.  **Jenny  **24:07I like that analogy. And I think that's a great argument to say. But what are the traits that you're looking for? You know when you've been working with people, the ones who are self starters, that get stuff done, that is always asking, what else can I do now? Is this okay? What could I read behind the scenes to kind of get me up to speed with this and you can almost feel that they're going to be fantastic. And I funnily enough, I ended up talking to her a CSD yesterday who was of that ilk. And I ended up saying to he,r Can I just tell you how impressed I am with you? Yeah, she went, Oh, I feel like an imposter. I said, don't worry about it. She didn't have necessarily a lot of formal training. But my God, was she all over it. Sorry, you're the expert, I'm not. **Phil  **24:53I think you're right,  they're always the things that I look for and I think the agencies that I work with are looking for is , it's an attitude, isn't it as much as anything else. And if people have the right attitude, like say you can educate them in areas that you need to, and you can develop skills, but that attitude and that willingness to ask questions and to look for work. And if you go back to entry level people, the advice I always give to people at that level, when they're going for interviews or internships, I always say to them if you ask people in the agency, what can I do to help you? What can I do to make your life easier, they will love you and that rings true, probably throughout their career. If you're asking yourself, what can I do to make everybody else's life easier in the agency? How can I ease the pressure on your shoulders? They will love you and they'll want you around, won't they? **Jenny  **25:55Absolutely, I think that's a magic question. Very good tip. So these agencies that are currently attracting the talent, tell me your views on how proactive they are with their own marketing of their own agency, does that have a bearing on how the candidate sees them? What else could agencies be doing to make themselves more attractive, so that they're actually drawing them in? **Phil  **26:22Yeah, I think we need to be more visible, I think all agencies needs to be more visible, I think it helps to have a reputation. And  that doesn't just mean like winning awards, it can be more of a reputation about the type of culture you've got. And I'm not sure agencies do a great deal of talk about that. Some do. And I think it's a really good public portrayal to really  show what type of culture and what type of environment you've got. And I think that really helps if you can really get that across to people. And I think as wel through working with us one of the great things we're good at is telling and crafting these stories about agencies and because I understand not every agency has the time to really do a lot of their own marketing. And sometimes  we can tell a really good story, and a really good insight into the type of place it is to get a candidate to look at it that maybe it wouldn't have been on their radar before because there are hundreds of agencies. And over the years I've talked to a lot of candidates who say things to me, like, Well, I think I know all the agencies that I'd want to work for. And I say, Do you realise how many agencies there are?  I'm sure I can introduce you to a few that you've never heard of that you would absolutely love. So certainly we help in that regard in terms of  making those connections and introducing new agencies to people that they haven't heard of before. **Jenny  **28:07Great point.  And I love the fact that you help agencies craft that story, because you're right,  I remember recruiting before, it's like, what's the job description? Let's just get it out there. You know, there's no thought that goes into it. So having someone else to add that value, I think is key. I want to move on to the account management function specifically, because I obviously this is Creative Agency Account Manager, what value do you think a good account manager brings to the agency? **Phil  **28:37Something stuck with me, many, many years ago, talking to an agency MD, about this. And his point to me was that a good account manager is one that will get the brief right first time, at least 95% of the time. And his point of view was that someone who could do that is worth the weight in gold, and will keep his agency's profit margin going north, and account managers that get the brief wrong more times than they get it right, you know, are going to be sending it southwards on that profit margin. And that stuck with me. And that was probably like 16 years ago, I was told that and it's always stuck with me is sort of a really good way of summing up the value of a good account manager. **Jenny  **29:35It's a good point, actually, because in order to write a good brief, you've got to have the skills behind it to be asking the right questions, to challenge the brief, to make sure that you've done your research. So a lot is encompassed in that statement, isn't it? You know, if the final brief is the right one, and everyone works to it, not only are you saving a huge amount of time and effort and money, but it demonstrates that the account manager is doing exactly what they need to do. **Phil  **30:05 And I think as well that ability to work successfully with the creatives and that ability to understand creativity is really important. And one of the things we enjoy with the Handle This event is it's often the first time that marketing students and creative students have worked together, because the way universities are structured, they tend to be in different departments, the marketing degrees in the business school, the creative courses are in the art school. And the way universities are structured, they can't do cross department courses and units. And often it's the first time they've ever worked together. And  the way you see their eyes opening about what the other person does and the skills that they bring to the table is wonderful. And I think that ability to really get the best out of your creatives as an account manager and get them on your side is really important as well. **Jenny  **31:07Love that. Yeah, that's so so true. And so what do agencies or what else do agencies want from account managers? Get the brief right, be able to work with the creative team, obviously proactivity, as we've discussed, what else anything else that they're asking for? **Phil  **31:25I think the dream for most agency owners is  account handlers that can grow existing clients. And I've always felt that sales is seen as a dirty word, within agency account managers often, that they don't want to think that sales is something that they have to do but, but I think agency MDs, and chief execs would like them to be able to do it. And again, I remember a young lady many years ago, an account exec that I met, and she'd only been in the industry for 18 months. And she was telling me that she'd proactively reached out to the marketing director of one of our agencies clients with an idea, the marketing director loved it, got the agency involved on it, and she grew the client spend by 400%. And she was 18 months in and I said to her, you will go far. When you tell that story to any agenc that's hiring, they will love that. And she  did, she's gone on to have a brilliant career, very, very successful. And you could see it from those early days. And I think that's the dream for a lot of agency leadership - people that can do that. **Jenny  **32:45I agree. And I've had that similar conversation with all the account managers, and that's why I put the Account Accelerator Program together is because of exactly what you said, most account managers don't feel that they necessarily are in sales, but they still need that skill of growing existing accounts. And you do not have to be a sleazy car salesman, in that connotation of sales, it really can be really seamless. So I'm with you. 100%. **Phil  **33:15Yeah, and I think it's a tough job, isn't it? I think we ask a lot of the account managers in the industry, and I think the workload is growing. And I think people are putting more on account handlers, which is tough, because I always thin  account managers get flack from every direction,it comes to left and right, and up and down. And that's a tough place to be, isn't it? It's a really tough spot to be in the agency. **Jenny  **33:46I spoke to David C. Baker about this. And he said it was the hardest job in the agency. And I think you're absolutely spot on it is, you do get flak from all directions. But if you are super ambitious, and you want to develop your career, then what better than to grow an existing account, because you will get the recognition, you'll get the career growth. And you know, and that demonstrates a huge level of productivity. So kudos to that girl that did that. So just in terms of currently, is there a big demand for account managers? Or is there a shortfall particularly? **Phil  **34:19Yeah, the demand for account managers is huge at the moment.  I have not known a demand like this in all the time I've been recruiting and I must counter that with what I was saying before about supply, and the supply is dwindling, of account managers. We're speaking to lots who are basically going client side or leaving the industry altogether, spoke to several you've left the industry all together to do something completely different. And I think the analogy I've been using for this is that I almost feel like the account handling recruitment market is like a game of musical chairs. And there's always some chairs empty. But there's always people moving around and sitting down on different chairs. So we've not quite noticed that there's not enough people in the game. Whereas now there's not as many people walking around, looking to sit down on a chair. So now we're noticing as an industry, there's a lot of empty chairs. And I don't know if that analogy makes sense. But that's how I've been been explaining it to people. And I think it's true that we just, we've always had a shortage, but it's been exacerbated by people leaving the industry and others may be just sitting tight in roles, because they're not confident to move yet. So there's just a demand out there that can't be satisfied at the moment. **Jenny  **35:54I love your analogies. Phil, it's really good. I'm just thinking about that. Is it like a perpetual situation where you've got a gap? You need some account managers, you haven't got them. So it puts pressure on the rest of them with extra work, and then they end up leaving. And then you get a new one in and but there's still a gap there? **Phil  **36:17I think that's a real issue, and could be one moving forward, because you know all these agencies that have got gaps they're looking to fill you're right, they'll be putting extra pressure on  existing staff. And that's not good in the long term. And I remember one agency many years ago  said to me with their account handlers, they always over staffed on their account handlers. They always had at least one or two more than they felt they needed, just to make sure that the workload never got too much, they were covered for holidays, they were covered if somebody left, and I thought what a really enlightened way to run an agency, and that agency never had any problems with account handlers leaving, they kept them for years, because they were never overworked. **Jenny  **37:11Wow, I'm sure there are a lot of people thinking about this. And because a lot of the time it's down to the business model, isn't it? Because we sell hours, we're always trying to make the profit margins work, and therefore, there's no scope to have people sitting there not doing much. And so there's always that balance, isn't it? I think that's a really great example of an agency that's obviously  probably had a different financial position that they could afford to do that. But it's worked out. **Phil  **37:41And I think it's a case of slightly more cost on staff, but if that saves you money on losing staff, and the problems of then re recruiting to replace them and you might utilise freelancers in that period when you're looking for someone, and that's got a cost assigned to it. So I think  it probably balanced out over time for the agency because they were investing properly in the people that they had in the building at that moment in time. **Jenny  **38:16I think you're right. So I'm thinking about agencies that might be listening to this thinking, right we need staff, it's taking ages, it's looks like it's putting pressure on the rest of the team. Can you share some tips or guidance for agencies who want to recruit the best team, you've already said have a dedicated talent manager, if you can, obviously, create a fantastic culture, and so that people are attracted. Open your vision a little bit in terms of looking at..open your mind to a candidate and not have the expectation of having four interviews, times are different,  anything else that you haven't said that you could add to that? **Phil  **39:03I think the flexibility angle is is really important at the moment. There's certainly, you know, applicants are looking for more flexibility than then they perhaps had in the past. That hybrid working model is really important to applicants at the moment people want that sort of two or three days in the office two or three days at home is really important. So to think about that because it can open up people that might not have ordinarily commuted to your location for five days, but they might do for two or three days. Which is a good option. I think as well there is still an issue I think with the industry being unsure about people working  three or four days a week and not being full time and I think we miss out on a lot of talent that leaves because they can't work three or four days a week. We had an agency quite recently that was looking for somebody. And we found them a very talented account manager, who had a young child and could only work three days a week. And, you know, good on them  they interviewed her, loved her, as said we'll make this work, because she was great, and she fitted, and they will make it work. I know of others that want to work three or four days a week and don't feel that an agency is the best place for them to do that. So I think we will lose some talent through the exit door in that situation. **Jenny  **40:43Have you had complaints from agencies who perhaps have been open to taking someone part time, and it hasn't worked out? What are they kind of saying to you? What's their nightmare scenarios that have happened? Anything? **Phil  **40:55I think it's about not being now when a client needs you, isn't it? That's the worry, isn't it, that you know that your day off is Friday, and the client emails on a Friday and you're not there, I think that's the worry. But even going back many years, I remember an agency where I found someone who wanted three days a week and the MD said I'm just not sure Phil, but let's do it on three months contract and see how it goes. And at the end of the three months, he said Phil, I'm completely sold. The amount of work that she gets through in three days, is putting other people to shame,  working five days, because she was so well organised on those three days, there was never a problem on the day she wasn't working. And I think we just need to, you just need to find solutions, whether that be a buddy system, a lot of people who will want to work three or four days a week will still check their emails on the days they're off. They will do it. I'm not saying it's right. But they are willing to do that for that sacrifice, to have that extra day that they might need for personal reasons. **Jenny  **42:11I suppose it comes down to, obviously, circumstances but also attitude, doesn't it? And does this fit? Will it work? And will the candidate do everything that they can to make it work plus the agency be flexible enough to kind of try to do anything they can behind the scenes to make it work? So you're right. I mean, so are you finding that any candidates are saying I want 100%? work from home? **Phil  **42:36Not really no, very few. I think there's a general thing, people have missed the office. And I think most people who work in agencies are, enjoy working with people, we're that type of animal, I think that wants to be in a room with other people. So I think there's some great things about working from home. And I think that not having to travel for client meetings as often I think is probably a real beneficial thing, not having to spend your day on a train down to London and back just for one meeting. I think there's real benefits to that. But I think everybody wants to, to be in the office at various points and understands that creativity is better created generally thinking  in a shared space with other people. So most people seem to want a hybrid model. **Jenny  **43:31Personally, because I started in agency so long ago, I find that actually, the positive that's come out of this pandemic is that there is more flexibility that people are being allowed to work from home some days. And even like you said, be a little bit more open about part time hours. Because I personally have seen so many of my friends, ex colleagues that have hit the childbearing age going off having babies and they're just thinking it's impossible to come back, agencies were so closed off to any kind of flexibility. Is that what you've seen? **Phil  **44:05Yeah, over the history of my work in an industry, yes, I would say that's always been the case. And whilst I like you, I'm hoping that what's happened over the last 15 months and that more open mindedness about flexible working might mean that it doesn't happen to the next generation. But also, maybe there's  a few people that could come back into the industry that thought they couldn't. When you've explained it like that as well. I think when you look at the the gender balance, within account handling, it's predominantly female, isn't it in most agencies as well. So it sort of enhances that problem that we've had over the years, doesn't it?  **Jenny  **44:54It's such a good point. And do you think also that agencies are more flexible with age, I mean be honest, are you seeing any ageism? Because obviously, it's a young industry, isn't it? Like creativity? It's dynamic. But personally, I think, perhaps I'm giving.. you tell me first and then I'll stop ranting. **Phil  **45:16I don't ageism is  as big a problem as it was. I think people are far more open minded now than they were 10 to 15 years ago. I think there is more of a focus on good people who get the job done are worth the weight and gold and I think most agency owners that I speak to a far more open minded now than perhaps people were 15-20 years ago.  **Jenny  **45:48I'm so glad to hear that actually. Because particularly in the current management function, if you're really super experienced account manager, you could be a huge asset. You don't have that reticence about picking up the phone to clients being a little bit more confident, opening doors. I don't know, I think it's a missed opportunity if people aren't being flexible with age. **Phil  **46:14I think one of the other things I've noticed as well, that I'd like to see more of is, is utilising people from different types of agencies as well. In particular, if you think about people who've worked in events agencies  have,  they've struggled over any period of time. And the people who have been account managers in those types of agencies have got great transferable skills. If you're an integrated agency or a digital agency, why could you not utilise someone with those skills, or somebody who's perhaps focused on point of sale? Why couldn't those skills if you work with great clients, and they've managed projects, and they get things done? Why couldn't a different type of agency pick them up and very quickly bring them up to speed in, in what you as an agency deliver? Because they've got the core skills. **Jenny  **47:13I think you're spot on. I think that's great, great advice. So also, can you give any tips or guidance for candidates, maybe that are looking for the right agency for them? **Phil  **47:25I think what you're finding at the moment, because agencies are aware of the shortage on the market, and have perhaps been looking for  a while, the agencies are tending to, to make offers after one meeting at the moment, I think, because they're so keen to get in there. And I understand that, and  I would encourage people to move quickly. But for from a candidate point of view, I'd always recommend going for a second meeting. You will find different things out, you will meet different people. And you'll think of more questions. So, I think rather than rushing into accepting a role,  do your due diligence, and go through it at your speed, don't feel like you have to accept a job because it's been offered after one meeting, feel like you can ask for another one. And also, I always think anyway ask yourself, what will you learn at this agency. How will working there see your skill set develop over the next couple of years. Regardless of what money they want to pay you,  and how they talk about  the type of things you'd be doing and the table tennis table and the pool table and the ballpits, the beanbags. What will you learn there in the next couple of years? And I think if you can give yourself a positive answer to that question, and that you can see yourself be in two years being bigger, better, more rounded, then it's probably a good place for you. So I always think that's a good way of looking at any new role. **Jenny  **49:13Good advice. And would you suggest that they also asked to speak to, I don't know, other members of the team? Because I'm always surprised that sometimes the recruitment happens in a vacuum.  And we certainly had a policy where I used to work that first interview was kind of a screening. But the second interview, if we thought that that was the right person, they would actually go out to lunch with the team. I went out to lunch with the team because everyone gets a say, to say, no, she's gonna fit in or I'm not sure. And actually, it makes everybody more bought into the decision. **Phil  **49:48Yeah, I think it's good advice for agencies in terms of their process.  Get more people involved who they'll be working with. It can just be a simple, quick coffee or a chat, but it will help your team regulate the hiring of the right people and from the candidates point of view, they'll good feel as to whether it's the type of place they want to work. So it's a win win, really, for everybody, isn't it?  **Jenny  **50:23Totally agree. Anything else, any other tips for candidates? **Phil  **50:27I think, just generally,  salaries could be thrown at you, money could be thrown at you by certain agencies. My advice would always be don't follow the money, your criteria about where you work, and where your career goals should never ever be about money, in my opinion. Now, other people may disagree with me, and that's fine. But I would always make career decisions based on other factors. Because I believe if you're talented, and you do a good job, that you will earn good money, and you'll earn a nice living. Well, you've got to enjoy it. You've got to enjoy what you do and enjoy the people the environment you work with, otherwise, the money won't matter. **Jenny  **51:15Yeah,  I love that philosophy. And what would those other factors be if it's not the money, what should candidates be looking for? **Phil  **51:24I think they need to be looking for an environment where they fee their personal well being is going to be looked after, as well as their professional development. And I think if you can find somewhere where your new agency is going to really look after you in those two areas. I think you'll stay for a long time, and you'll enjoy it. You'll feel looked after in all areas as well. **Jenny  **51:52What kind of, I might be putting you on the spot here, but what kind of questions should a candidate be asking at interview stage to try to determine whether the agency's going to be looking after their well being? **Phil  **52:02I think I'd be asking them do they have a policy on on well being? What's the policy on health? Do they have a mental health policy, I think is something that's growing these days that more and more agencies are having policies on mental health and personal well being. So I'd want to know what have they done so far for their people that are already there to look after their well being? What are you doing currently, that I will have access to? **Jenny  **52:37That's a killer question, actually feel that's the podcast value in gold right there so well done. How do you think, Phil, that the recruitment industry is going to be evolving over the next few years? **Phil  **52:51The way I see it going, and there was talk last year that the recruitment industry will change, because now we're doing everything on Zoom, there was lots of talk of, well, you know, you could recruit for jobs in different countries and jobs in different areas. And I think there was people getting excited about that. Whereas I think the way it will go is is delving more into niches, and really focusing  on the areas that you know, and that that you can add value to. And certainly that's what we're trying to do is really focusing on the types of roles and agencies we work with in the North, and really becoming that person that knows what's going on in our field, and builds deeper relationships. I think we've always tried to do that. But I think it's going to go even further, that it's going to be about relationships and knowledge. And  that's certainly what what we're trying to do is really focused on   building that reputation that, that as a business, we're people who are, we're not outside the industry, we're inside it, and we're part of it. And I think the things that we do like School of Thought and the Two+Two event and we run the Handle This) event for account handlers as well, which is really good and like everything we do is to really be part of the industry and not diversify, and sort of dilute what we do. I think you need to make it stronger. **Jenny  **54:37It's like Marketing 101, actually, isn't it because you've niched in an industry and you've niched in an area and you've really drilled down to, as you say, develop those long standing relationships and becoming the expert and then also you've layered upon that, events and ways of attracting a pool of new people. So I think you've got a fantastic business model there. That's a really good piece of advice for other agencies listening to this. Anything else? Because you mentioned something that I just wanted to ask you this working remotely from different countries, are you seeing that there any agencies that are being flexible with hiring people in other countries or conversely, candidates who are thinking about relocating to Spain, for example, and wanting still to work in a UK based company. **Phil  **55:29There are one or two agencies that are open about hiring people from different countries. I think there's probably a few more that are open to hiring people within the UK in different locations. And  just getting them into the office every few weeks when needed. Not seeing too many candidates wanting to relocate, and work remotely. But I think that might be something that might come up. And I think we have seen people relocate, say, from London to Manchester carry on working for their London agency remotely, while they find a new agency in Manchester, and that's completely new, because it was always, if you found a job in Manchester and you were working in London, you'd have to hand you notice in and relocate, and start a new job in four weeks. And so I think it's opened things up in that way definitely, we might see more people wanting to go and I don't know live in Cumbria, in the Lakes or in Cornwall, and still work for London or Manchester agency, I think agencies will probably be open to that. **Jenny  **56:38I can see this happening. I think we're at the beginning of a trend of this happening. An as you say, because of the shortage of candidates, companies having to be a little bit more flexible about this. Phil, this has been brilliant, any final pieces of advice that perhaps we haven't covered that you think would be worth sharing? **Phil  **56:56No, the main thing I would say, though, is I'm always open to anybody who wants to reach out to me for advice, support, guidance, opinions.  I see myself as someone who will always answer any question anybody's got,  I'm always happy to help people. So if anybody has anything that they're struggling with, whether they be an agency that wants advice on something, or an applicant who's applying for a role and want some advice, I'll always help anybody. So people are more than welcome to get in touch. **Jenny  **57:30Oh, Phil, that's so lovely. And can you give your contact details, where's the best place to reach you? **Phil  **57:34The best place is probably LinkedIn. I think I'm very visible. I have a very recognisable profile picture of me and the dog. And people often recognise a picture and they recognise him more than me sometimes. So if you search Phil Cookson and you'll spot me on LinkedIn, definitely the best way to get hold of me. **Jenny  **57:55Brilliant, Phil, thank you so much. This has been brilliant. And I've really enjoyed talking to you about everything to do with the recruitment industry. So thank you so much for coming. **Phil  **58:04Thank you, Jenny. Thank you for having me. It's been brilliant. Thank you.  **Jenny  **58:07Absolute pleasure.