How to be a great agency account director, with Sarah Deakin & Ruby Beagan
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Transcript:Jenny:So today on the show, I'm really excited about chatting to Sarah Deakin and Ruby Beagan. They're both from Thursday, which is a creative agency. And they're both account directors. And the reason I invited them on is because they're very impressive account directors, I believe that they do a lot of account directorship really, really well. Some of those things that I've seen and watch them do is being really consultative with their clients. I think they show up and they ask the right questions in meetings, they also bring their clients fresh ideas, new thinking, insights and trends. And generally, they're adding value to every interaction. And they're very commercially astute. Apart from all of that they're also very energetic and engaging. And they're part of my sort of inner circle of account directors that I want to be around, because I learn a lot from them. And what I've also observed from both of these girls, is the fact that they're always open to new ideas, they're humble enough to know they don't know everything, they approach challenges with a real sort of resilience and a thirst for knowledge. So, I love being around them. And that's one of the reasons I wanted them to come on. Because I'm sure there's a lot of either account managers looking to step up to account director or account directors that are looking for other ideas from other agencies. So I see this interview as a bit of an exchange of information. So I'm gonna pass over to maybe I could start with Sarah, and just tell us a bit about you, Sarah, your role at Thursday, how you got into account management, and kind of what you do on a day to day basis.Sarah: So I'm an account director at Thursday. So we're about the 20 strong inside lead design studio in Winchester, I was previously, my previous role was with an agency called Skyline, which was a slightly smaller agency. And we were sort of specialised in really short lead times, we were very reactive agency worked incredibly closely with our clients, you know, they pick up the phone to us, and we try and turn things around super quickly. So very relationship focused role at Skyline. And then, about a year and a half ago, perhaps two years ago, Thursday acquired Skyline and Thursday are much more kind of insight led and strategic in their culture. So the merge with Thursday brought about a company which was an agency, which was much more kind of sort of full service agency. And that's where we are now. Jenny:Amazing. Thanks, Sarah. What about you, Ruby?Ruby:Hello, thank you. I'm Ruby Beagan. And I am one of the, alongside Sarah, one of the account directors at Thursday, which is a design studio based in Winchester. At Thursday, we use design to explore our client's problems. And we have a real focus on clarity. And it was only this morning, actually, that I had a client say to me, oh, it now makes sense. And it's those sorts of moments that we were really after. So that's kind of what gets us up in the morning. I started my account management journey five years ago, and I think, probably with quite a lot of people within Client Services, I fell into it. It's not really the kind of career that you get told about school, it's not really kind of on your radar from a young age. You know, it's usually a vets, or, in my case, I think I wanted to be a midwife, but my biology teacher told me to take a different route. So that ended that dream. But yeah, so I kind of left uni, panicked, got a call centre job, because it was kind of like, oh, I'm out of education, straight into job, didn't wanna sort of take that gap year, did it for six months, hated it, and then looked into kind of pursuing a career in Client Services.Jenny:Wow. But Client Services in agencies or client services, it could be anywhere because presumably, in the call centre, you've got quite a lot, you got used to speaking to people all the time, which is part of our role, isn't it?Ruby:Yeah. So from the call centre, I went to a letting agents, so kind of did all that customer service side of things and management of properties. And then from that, that was a leap into agency.Jenny:Amazing. Well, thank you both so much. Sarah, can I ask you a question? We recently there's been a lot of debate about what value the role of an account manager or account director actually brings. So would you mind just sharing your view on what you believe account management actually brings to the party to both agencies and clients?Sarah:Yeah, well, I think we, from a client's point of view, we're acting as that liaison between themselves and the agency. So we've got this really good view of both worlds. So we put ourselves in the world of the client, we learn about what they do, what the industry is doing. And then we you know, we know like the back of our hand what, you know, how the agency runs and the strategic side of, you know, what value we can deliver. So it's just about kind of maximising those opportunities, making sure that we're delivering to the best of our ability.Jenny:I think you're right, I mean, I've seen particularly you Sarah being really as I said in the intro, very consultative with your clients really getting under the skin of their businesses, finding about what challenges they have, their pain points and bringing solutions that don't always necessarily fall in the remit of the services you provide at Studio, at the Thursday studio. So I think you're absolutely right. You really sort of play this Ambassador role. What about you, Ruby? Is there anything else you can add to that?Ruby:Yeah, I totally agree with Sarah, we, you know, Client Services, value added for the agency with definitely the hub, we kind of bring everything together, we are, we are the glue. And I am including project management when I sort of mentioned that, but I do think account management, we have the deepest understanding of our clients businesses, the ways they like to work, their expectations. We also know the pressures they're under, the stakeholder management, what they need to be able to do their job well. And I think we, within our agency, we represent our client, and sometimes fiercely, you know, we have resourcing meetings where people are trying to take away our resource and we protect our clients, you know, we fiercely, like, no, it needs to be done. We're managing expectations. So I think agency side where we're that hub, and then client side, like Sarah said, I think we're, we're an extension of their team, we have that crucial, outsider's point of view, but we're also an extra brain or an extra pair of hands for them on their day to day stuff. And we don't sort of just say yes to all their requests, we make sure we challenge them with consideration to make sure that all the solutions that we're giving them are meeting their problems and overcoming them hurdles, so that we sort of understand not just the current day problems, but also keeping in mind the bigger picture, like you said.Jenny:It's a really, really good point. Actually, there was a study done by Gartner last year, and I shared that insight with you and I thought is really, really insightful because the study was among 700, B2B organisations. And they were asking the question about why do the company, why don't you grow at the company, and they've realised that account management, if they go above and beyond in terms of service, they will only reach a level of retain, they'll retain the account. But in order to go beyond that, and actually grow that account, they have to have what they call customer improvement conversations with their clients. And that's where you are being more critical, you are being more challenging, you are delivering more insight and really stretching the client. So I love that you brought that up Ruby. The other thing that you just said that I would love you to sort of go into a bit more detail about is in your agency, you separate the PM function, the project management function from the account management function. Now, with my other clients, they, they don't make that separation. So effectively, that one person is doing both roles. Can you talk to me a little bit about how that works for you, and also what you believe kind of the fors and againsts?  Ruby:Hmm, definitely. So I've been in an agency that does both one where it was a jewel role, and I was kind of director and PMing. And then in other agencies where the roles are separate. And I think that, you know, it is separate to an extent, Sarah, and I very much still know what's happening in our projects. But splitting it out means that Lucy, our project manager Lucy is able to work on the day to day stuff. So the timelines requiring information and content and kind of all of that information and making sure that all the cogs are turning correctly. And then it allows Sarah and myself to kind of come in above that, although we have full knowledge of the day to day, we're able to grow that client account, we're able to talk to them strategically, because they don't always want to talk to us about the day to day. We're able to kind of pause that and get them to look forward, which is which is a massive benefit of having that split role. It also means if you're navigating some of the trickier situations and conversations you're able to say, Oh, hang on, let me take that back to my project manager. And I can come back to you on that. And it kind of you don't have, feel that you sort of put on the spot, you know of what date is this going to be delivered? Or can we bring this in sooner, kind of some of those time concerning questions. So I think it does help in having that other person and then doing a joint role, I've done that as well. And similarly you kind of you just navigate around it, it is just a little bit harder to get the headspace to think strategically and think about the bigger picture because you are more bogged down in the day to day.Jenny:That's exactly what I hear a lot. And it's interesting you said earlier on that it kind of separates you from the delivery. So if the project isn't going to time or to budget for whatever reason, does that mean you don't have to have those conversations with the client if something's going you know, haywire, who actually does have that conversation because, you know, we know there's always challenges particularly with tight deadlines and things. So what actually happens in in sort of the day to day running?Ruby:I think scenarios when a project is kind of needing that additional level of support, we, Sarah and I, definitely do get involved and having that conversation and kind of, but being on the client side, sometimes project managers are more on the agency side, on the basis that they're seeing all the numbers and times and, and are very realistic whereas account management, you can kind of be like, Okay, well, let me see what I can move around and, and be a little bit more accommodating in some, in some ways to just try and kind of soften that message. So I think we do definitely come in and help with the more difficult conversations when things are not working. But before we do that, we obviously worked with a project manager to kind of be like, so what, what's a compromise? What can I take to this conversation that says, Okay, we're not going to meet that. But we're going to do this, and we're going to do that. So it's kind of you're going in prepared, I think that is one of the most important things to those difficult conversations where you're about to deliver a little bit of bad news is having something good to kind of help them along their way as well. Jenny:That's great tip. Thank you, Ruby, would you add anything to that Sarah, about the separation of the PM and the AM role?Sarah:Yeah, well, just that, you know, being able to move away from the conversation, and to really fully brief yourself on reasons why. If you know, if there are any problems or anything to overcome, it's just really good to be able to go to the team, I think just to go to the team and have a really good chat, you know, even sketch it out. Why has this not happened? Why is that? What's the blocker, so that you're really well briefed to be able to go back? Because sometimes, you know, I think we all have it, where we, you know, or one on one conversation doesn't quite hit the mark, you just need that little bit of backup, you need to revisit the timelines, the reasons, a lot of these projects are really complicated. And, you know, just having those simple conversations about what's coming in on track. And what is and isn't that simple. So it's just about being able to just have those conversations internally and then go back fully informed.Jenny:I'm probably going a little bit too deep into this. But I know it's a topic of conversation that comes up a lot, the separation of the PM and AM role. So do you think in terms of a skill set that's required for the AM and the PM, the PM needs to be better versed in technical skills? Or do you think that it's really important for the aim to totally understand and maybe have done that role so that they equally are as proficient with the understanding of how a project works like that? What are your views on that? That’s a weird one, but just curious what you think?Ruby:The first agency I was at was very technical, and I kind of got catapulted into it, and had to learn the ropes quite quickly. And the project managers that were extremely technically advanced, and they were very, very good at their jobs. And actually, I probably didn't need to input technically. But having that knowledge and going to a job role really helped me. So I would definitely say if anyone is in Client Services, or looking to get into Client Services, understanding the technicalities, and even not just technicalities, I think the brand process photography, social media, I think if you can become your own expert within that area, I do think it really helps to have those conversations, and just your general understanding of knowing when things are going off on a different sort of par for and being able to have them conversations with your clients. I do think it helps.Jenny:I think you're spot on there. And I think I tuned into an interview with Martin Sorrell yesterday and we were, he was, talking about the importance of keeping up to speed with what's happening. The industry in terms of marketing is changing all the time. I mean, digital technologies are available now that weren't available only few years ago. So I think it's also great that you have that ability to maybe spot what the trends are, you know, not just for the customers business, but clients business, but also for your industry and what's changing. So I think I think there's a real strong argument for separating those roles. And Sarah, can I just ask you, what do you believe the difference is, if any, of having an account manager role and account director role.Sarah:So I would say, an account manager, you know, essentially you are solving client problems, you're, you know, getting to the bottom of what needs to be done, and you're doing it, you're delivering it to budget on, you know, on time. With an account director, I just think that you're coming in at a more strategic level. So you're understanding that for the client's industry, you're ahead of the curve, hopefully, in that industry and knowing what's coming next, being able to advise on that level. So you're not just talking about the agency world anymore. You're talking about the client's world, and then marrying the two together and then you know, just being able to partner with them really, and they're thinking and thinking going forward to so you know, even looking next year, maybe even you know five years time you're looking ahead all the time and, you know, drawing observations from the industry.Jenny:I think it's a really good point, actually. I interviewed a lady called Kate Whittaker, who is head of corporate communications for Dual Group, which is an insurance group. And she said that it was particularly beneficial for her to have an agency that was working with her that understood her market and her industry. But how do you stay on top? Like, how do you stay on top of what's happening in your clients industry? Sarah:For me,  I just keep an eye on the news. I've got some Google Alerts set up that sort of thing. LinkedIn is really helpful, too, if you, you know, got the right channels set up on LinkedIn, and following, I think a really quick way is following my own clients and their competitors on LinkedIn, seeing what they're talking about, often they'll refer to an article about, talk about an event, or even events, we can go to events. But back when we could go to events, and just keep on top of it. And that's the really, really quick way of doing it actually, just tuning into what the clients talking about. But obviously, you want to bring something new to the table. So you want to be making sure that you're well versed in similar areas or with their competitors, or other areas. Yeah, so that would be, that would probably be the simplest way of doing it. At this point it’s interest, I think as well, just having a genuine interest. Because these industries really are interesting, they've got a lot, you know, that, particularly over the last 12 months, a lot has been happening in different markets. And it's really interesting, just paying attention to the changes, and being able to take those observations back to the clients.Jenny:I love that you brought that up, actually, because I think you're right, LinkedIn is really, you know, you could be entering the conversation with your clients online, as well as offline. I think it's just another opportunity, as well as staying informed with what's going on in your clients, industry. Ruby, what about you? Would you add anything to that in terms of a the separation of the AM and AD role, but also operating at an AD level? Anything else?Ruby:Yeah, I would say that, personally, I think that leap from senior account manager to account director is one of the biggest and one that you should feel ready for. And, you know, I'd advise anyone that's in Client Services, not to rush through the ranks, you know, go from exec to account management to senior to AD and get an understanding at each level. Because once you are an account director or Client Services Director and managing a team, I think you need to have that empathy and understanding of all the levels to really kind of help manage your team. So firstly, I'd say don't, you know, rush through the ranks. And then I think the other sort of areas in my personal career that attributed to that step up was firstly, managing a team, that sort of day to day management, as well as creating their growth path and mapping out their commercial and client and personal based objectives, having those check ins and almost putting not your own career to one side, but acknowledging other people's as well. And being that person that's passionate and wanting them to be the best version of themselves and highlighting areas for improvement or kind of going back constantly going back to the objectives and saying, Where are we at with this one? Have we met that commercial target to do all of those things, I think, attributed to me becoming an account director. And then secondly, like Sarah said, I think it's having that additional layer to your client partnership. It's not just being firmly by their side, but with them at the forefront of their business, helping them drive it forward, taking in all of that insights from our industry, from their industry, and just making sure that you're kind of aligned with their not just current ambitions, but future ones as well.Jenny:Very well said. What do you both feel about thought leadership? Because I always see that on LinkedIn, for example, I think it's the platform at the moment to be on, to enter the conversations with clients, but also to share your thoughts about what's changed in the market, maybe sharing what you know. Sarah mentioned earlier on about going to conferences and events and those insights that you pick up first-hand, how important do you think thought leadership is to for account management?Sarah:In order to demonstrate, as in us writing pieces? And, yeah, well, I think, yes, it's really important, it just is a change from the norm. And I think that's what people look for in an agency they're looking for, they're not just looking for people to do what they're telling them to do. They're looking for people to, to think differently, and to challenge what's been done. And obviously they call it, you know, just disrupting, and just new thinking, and that's what people that's, you know, above and beyond what a lot of agencies offer. So, um, and I think that draws people's attention to, to us as an agency.Jenny:Really well said, thanks, Sarah. Ruby, can you give us some examples of where you think that account management has made or you yourself has made a difference to the bottom line of the client?Ruby:Yeah, of course. So I had a university approached us a few years ago with a brief to help drive Open Day attendees. And that was kind of the extent of the brief, it wasn't very deep. So we work closely with them to kind of build that solution and seamlessly allow users to engage with the university and book open days and the project KPIs were met. And that brief was fulfilled. But as part of the account management process, and being involved in the insights phase of that project, we did like a sort of a deep dive into everything. And we discovered there was a series of mundane tasks that staff were having to do manually. So we looked to overcome that as part of this project and automate those tasks, so that not only did it boost general morale, but it also empowered the team to spend more time on strategic partnerships, which had an amazing bottom, you know, effect on the client's bottom line. And it was a great example of how account management and insights, not only did we achieve the original brief, but we overcome other problems that they were not even aware of. And these were operational or internal engagement problems. So it was kind of a massive learning curve for me how account management and sitting there and questioning things and going down different avenues with the client to not just accept that the brief was to drive Open Day attendees, but delve in a little bit further, we overcame a much bigger issue than they thought and, you know, it was sort of a two prong approach. And they got the Open Day numbers up and they also improved internal efficiencies and morale. So it was a really great outcome that kind of demonstrates that, through design and development, you can kind of overcome a multitude of hurdles that you probably didn't even know, were there when writing the brief.Jenny:I think that is such a super example of adding additional value to a client's business. And actually, the client presents a problem to you, but actually, is that the problem? Is it the only problem? What's the impact of that problem? And what else can we see that perhaps they're not seeing? So a couple of questions on this particular example? Because I think it's a great one. Do you find sometimes that clients are reluctant to share with you more information about their business, so that you can sort of lift the lid on what's happening? And how did you do it in that, in that instance.Ruby:So as part of all of our projects, we have an insights phase, where we kind of want to go in and do a deep dive in. And that is, you know, sold in from new business as part of our journey. And it's such a crucial part. And it's usually done through interviews with personnel in the team. So you kind of understand, so it's not just capturing all this information from the marketing manager or CTO or CMO, you're kind of broadening out to understand other people's views on the business problems or all that solution, you know, everyone knew we were working towards driving open days, and we're asking people's opinions on and understanding the workflow of delivering these open days, and these mundane series of tasks were completed manually, and what had to be done before the Open Day booking could be completed. And we sort of spoke to them about these tasks and how much time it was taking up. And we kind of built a little bit of a business case to really kind of explore this further with the client, which obviously, they saw the amount of time that was being put into these tasks, and realise that automating them would cause I think it was about 30% efficiencies. Jenny:Wow. So if you hadn't have spoken to other people about the problem in the organisation, you may or may not have uncovered that insight. That's, that's brilliant. So that's a really good tip, as well as for other people listening, the person that brings you the problem, you know, think about how that how the problem is currently affecting other people get their views on what how they see the problem. And through that, you get the insight. I think that's a great example. Sarah, do you have any other examples of where you've added value to the bottom line of the client's business?Sarah:I've got some examples. But I just wanted to say that, you know, generally, at Thursday, that is the way we approach every problem with the insight phase. And I just think that, you know, as a general, without specific examples, I think we just, we, we take that approach each time, so a client will come to us very often a client will come to us and say I need a website, or I need a new, you know, an app or whatever it might be. And we always as a matter, of course, will sit down with them and actually analyse what they're asking us. Start again, you know, and just find out what the driver is behind that and what it is that they're trying to achieve. So we'll look at the objectives, we'll look at the goals, and then we go all the way back to the beginning and figure out if that really is the question, is it the website? Is it the brand where you know, so for example, somebody did come to us recently for a website, actually, it was a problem with the brand. So we have rebranded that company now and we're already looking at really exciting results from that. And then we will go on and do a website. It's those sorts of things as well. We were saying, you know, it's just about asking the questions. And we are, yeah, we’ve got lots of examples of companies that have come back to us and said, you know, you have made a direct impact on my bottom line through the projects that we've done with you. It’s exciting stuff. Jenny: It really, really is. I'm so glad you're explaining this, because I think this is key really, to how we can add value, as, you know, as an industry as a role, and I suppose I kind of want to dive even deeper into it. But I think you've really explained that the key crux and I suppose I want to ask you the same question, Sarah, about is there ever any reluctance? You know how sometimes it's a character thing, isn't it? If your client comes to you, yeah, I just need a website, we'll just get on with it. I just made the decision. I always use the analogy of being a doctor diagnosing problems, we kind of have to ask loads of questions to really uncover all the symptoms, but sometimes people come and they're self diagnosed. Yeah, what the problem is, I've chosen my medicine, and I just need you to just write the prescription. Do you ever find that?Sarah:It does happen? And it's usually and again, you know, we're always going to have some conversations anyway, whether we explained that we need to sit down and really identify the issues.Ruby:I think it's probably particularly with existing clients, isn't it, Sarah, that we find that I think new clients are more than happy to go through the deep dive insights, but existing clients, once they've done that big brand and big website projects? And they're like, right, I need this and we go, right, let's delve into why you need that. And they're like, Oh, no, I just need, you know, they've been through the process. They're like, you know, enough about me. So there are times where you have to know your clients, I think, and you have to understand when they want to go through it, and not and Sarah and I, I mean, we definitely experience clients pushing back and saying, This is what I need, I just need that.Jenny:That’s a really good point, actually, to separate it from brand new clients who are working with you for the first time and it makes sense. And then those ongoing relationships. So that's the reality, isn't it, Sarah? Are you gonna say something else?Sarah:Just often down to time restraint, and budgetary restraints with clients, if they feel like there are new requirements, and they need it done quickly, then yes, they often do come to us and say, right, forget asking any questions, let's just get this done. But we do, we do still try to as far as possible, even if it's reusing insight that we've done previously, you know, we will, we're reluctant really to kick off a project without any insight behind it. Because the end result is always so much better. When we've when you've got full visibility of what you're doing and why you're doing it.Jenny:I suppose it's also explaining why you're digging in further, you know, typically, with our other clients, we’ve found in the past that, you know, going a little bit deeper into this area helps them and make it about them. So that's a really good point. Why do you think clients stay with agencies for a long time, because I know that you've got very loyal clients. And obviously testament to Simon Harmer, who I think’s created a really fantastic culture where you both feel very, you know, happy in your roles, energised, motivated, and it's a real sort of team vibe, which I think, you know, culturally, I think the agency has got it right. But why do you think clients stay with you for so long?Ruby:I think it's the continuous stream of sort of forward thinking ideas that are rooted in the knowledge of the clients business, as well as their industry is key for client retention. I think this married with the kind of trust that's built up over a period of time, from Simon, from the developers, from, you know, the creative, a lot of people in our agencies are, they're client facing, you know, most people are more than happy to kind of jump on a call or present. And I think that's, that's really lovely that our clients really get to know not just Sarah and I, and Simon, but also the wider team. And I think that's really nice. And I think that married with transparency on communications, as well as kind of well delivered services helps with all the client retention.Jenny:Great points. What about you, Sarah? Anything to add to that?Sarah:Yeah, I think we are lucky with our team that just such a great bunch of people and we've got, again, you know, we're lucky with our culture and that we've got this incredibly supportive agency. So within the studio, as Ruby said, people jump on calls, they present, we all do things together and people our clients do know, the wider team. I just think we're supportive of each other and, we have a group meeting every morning and we can just say, you know, in that meeting, look, I need a bit of help over here. This is a you know, we've got a new delivery date over here. What can we do and I just find that people just come out of the woodwork and say, right, they roll up their sleeves and help with anything we need help with. So we get things done. So, you know, it's that accountability, you know, even the wider team, even the people that wouldn't necessarily in some agencies have been be client facing or have any real direction. accountability to a client. I think here, people do feel accountable, everybody feels accountable. And everybody feels that, you know, they've got this responsibility to deliver what we've said will deliver. Jenny:I think this is huge. And you too, I think you remind me of my Publicis days, and the team that we had there was it truly was, it felt like a family. We were all, we had each other's back. And it was just such a lovely environment, I missed that so much. And it was a very special time. Because, you know, you just you want to be there and you want to help each other and I just, I get that vibe from you every time I speak to you. Tell me about, we're obviously recording this in December 2020, we are in, we've just come out of lockdown because of global pandemic. I would love you to just touch on maybe some of the challenges you've had, from an account management perspective, any challenges you've experienced as a result of suddenly everyone working from home and maybe having to speak to clients at home? Or getting stuff done? What's kind of, what's been happening? your side?Sarah:Yeah, I think that it's, it's brilliant, when we're all in the agency together, when we're all in the studio together, you know, we can just pull into meetings, ad hoc, we can just, you know, have discussions over the desks. We can't do that now. And that's, that is hard. Because, you know, we do work together so well, we create things together. So I think that's, that is a drawback that we have to work in our silos, we, you know, a lot has done over Messenger, over Zoom, it's just not quite the same. And in a creative space, I think you get the best synergies with colleagues, when you are in a room together. And there's just the fun bit as well, you know, just the social bit, but, you know, I think we, we are lucky, Zoom, I know that it's not everybody's favourite thing, but it's been a lifesaver. And, and I think that we never had any qualms in jumping on a video call with clients before. So this was just an extension of that. And our clients have been very receptive to that, you know, they're just very happy to. We've just kept regularly checking in with clients, even if it's just to have a chat and just say, how's it all going? Isn't this all a bit weird? You know, they've bee  happy to chat and, and from that, sometimes they'll open up start talking about business opportunities, things that they quite like to do, things they'd like to look into. And we've been able to see where we can help.Jenny:Have you found that they've been more accessible than usual, because they're at home and have more time for you?  Sarah:At times they are, depending on the client, at times, yeah, they can be more accessible. And there have been times I just think that in an office environment, your times a bit more segmented, and you've got a meeting all morning, and then you're out of the office, you know, whatever it might be, Whereas you know, you don't have that travel time you don't, there is more downtime, possibly, depending on the client. And it doesn't mean that, you know, they're more likely to want to have a chat, really.Jenny:I love what you said there, you just phoning in, you know, phoning to check on them. And then that kind of leads naturally to business conversation. So that's kind of feels very natural. What about you, Ruby? What are the challenges? How have you seen this whole situation? And how have you overcome it?Ruby:So I think one of the kind of biggest challenges for me, regardless of COVID, really is managing scope creep, and maintaining a healthy partnership. I think that is probably one of the hardest aspects of our role, as account directors, is kind of maintaining that relationship, giving the client what they want, as well as not over burning hours in the studio. So I think, you know, a lot of projects start with a host of assumptions on both sides that aren't always captured in the initial brief, or in the initial, which are then not captured in the estimate. And these assumptions can be anything from, you know, functionality, they thought was meant to be included, or data automatically being pulled through. And I think COVID and doing it all over the phone or doing over Zoom has made it more difficult, because, you know, none of us have found that magic solution yet to overcome all the scope creep. But I think doing over zoom has made it a little bit more difficult. So I like to have quite an open conversation at the start of the partnership, you know, maybe over a kind of introductory lunch or quite softly where we kind of explained that all the assumptions will be unearthed in the early stages and things will be brought to the surface and that we will collaboratively overcome these. So I think not being able to kind of book those lunches and have those soft touches make some of the harder conversations down the line a little more trickier to navigate.Jenny:That's really interesting, actually. And I'm glad we're talking about it because scope creep is huge. It's one of the biggest problems that we have to manage, isn't it? Yeah. And what you just said there was really key I think, is sort of managing expectations from the beginning, but also sort of preparing the client for the fact that there may be assumptions that we were both making and that are going to come up throughout the project that will have to talk about. Ruby:I think setting that foundation to have that transparent conversation is key. And you know, I like to capture all of these probably in a statement of work or something like that, and use prioritising methods, usually a Moscow approach methodology where it - must have, should have, could have, won’t have, an understanding their priorities so that I can then go back to the team and say, like, this is a really small tweak, can we squeeze it in budget, letting the client know as well that we've managed to squeeze that one in just so that they're kind of aware of what is coming through and what isn't? And, you know, some of the larger assumptions, you know, is there a workaround that we can do that brings it within budget, or if not provide an additional quote for it. And I just, I also think for other account managers and account directors, I think having that conversation where the client assumed it was included we’ve not assumed it's included, is a tricky one. And I think having the confidence to kind of, you know, provide work around or if not possible, show them all the things that have been included, that weren’t initially included, and be confident enough to provide a quote and explain that, you know, it might be that we can do this in phase two. And it's also once you've built that relationship with the client, there are elements of, or assumptions that don't squeeze into phase one, it's an amazing way of building that shopping list for your account plan for future growth from the phase two. Because you've instantly got a whole host of requirements that your client wants to action, and they can be rolled out quite quickly after the initial phase. So it can really help with rolling your account and, and keeping that client working with the agency after the kind of big ticket piece of work.Jenny:Really good points here. First, slight point, Moscow, um, repeat that for us Ruby:So, must have, should have, could have, won't have. So it's a nice way for them to prioritise and really sort of sit down. But we really must have that. We should have that, shouldn't we? Because I know Peter wants that or could have, okay, well, there's a few people that want it and won't have fine, you know, it is a bottom of the priority list. So it's a way that they can kind of sit down and know that it's business critical that we must have it and then we have to have quite transparent conversations about that.Jenny:Love that tip Ruby, that's a great tip. Thank you. What about scope creep, where it's less about additional features, and not having identified those at the beginning. And it's just simply because the project is going on longer than we anticipated. And we're spending more hours any tips for any account manager that might be listening to this with that situation?Ruby:I would say really be transparent and let that client know, early, as soon as you know that this project is not on path, let them know. And you know, and  speak to your team don't just sit there and let it fester. Because it's only gonna get worse. I mean, I've learned from that it's not going to go away, speak to your team. And it might be that your boss says right, okay, well, I'm happy as a business to absorb X amount of hours because so and so needed training, or they needed to understand the project a little bit more. And, you know, have that conversation with the client, if there is an opportunity to say, right, as an agency, we're willing to invest X amount of hours, I was wondering, is there any way that we could get an extra X amount of hours so that we can finish this project and together and make sure it's the best version, so kind of letting them know that you've invested hours, and that you need a little bit from them as well. I found that has worked a bit, you need to be in a very good place with your partnership, and have already delivered some elements to build that trust. And so that they don't think, oh, you're just sort of swallowing all the time, make sure that they can see that you've delivered previously. I love that.Jenny:I think that's really, really good. Keep talking, keep the lines of communication really fluid and open, rip off the plaster have the conversation as early as you possibly can. And then come with it's only gonna get worse and then prepare some solutions or prepare you know, internally have that conversation before you go back to the client. So great, great advice. What other advice do you have Sarah for anyone that's listening to this and they think I need to kind of improve my account management skills or I need I want that promotion to account director, I'm ready for that. What else do I need to be doing? Any advice for client service people?Sarah:Yeah, I think you can just make sure you're educating yourself in your clients industry, making sure you're having that strategic relationship with them in terms of wanting to climb up the ranks I think you can demonstrate that you're doing your job through the agency numbers. So if you're clear on what you are delivering you know and having your targets set properly in terms of you know what, what is likely to happen what has happened in the past and you can show what you're bringing to the to the agency, they, you will get recognition for the role that you're playing in the agency. Jenny:Great advice, bring extra value, learn about the client’s business and watch the numbers. Ruby, anything else?Ruby:Yeah, I would say firstly obviously, reach out to yourself, Jenny. Every time I speak to you, you ignite a fire in my belly and remind me why I love what I’m doing. And I always come away feeling like I’ve been given a breath of fresh air, which is huge and I think if anyone is looking to improve to definitely, obviously reach out to yourself. And then secondly I would say work closely with your team.Jenny:You’re making me cry. I didn’t pay her, everybody, I didn’t pay her to say that!Ruby:Secondly work closely with your team, I’ve been in an agency where we were almost encouraged to compete against each other. And were given rewards for getting X amount of money in fastest and things like that and I just don’t think it’s a healthy culture. I think working closely with other people in your client services team. Share ideas, share tips, share stories. Don’t try and stand on each other’s toes. You know you’re in this together as an agency and as a department and I think that is probably one of the ways that I was able to improve my account management skills is from learning from others.Jenny:Great, great advice and thank you for saying that, it was very sweet. What else should you be focussing on, particularly with the account director role? We’ve mentioned understanding the client’s business, being consultative, asking the right questions, bringing insights, bringing new ideas, being ahead of the curve, watching the numbers. Anything that we haven’t mentioned leading the team, being collaborative, being a thought leader. Anything else that you think would be relevant for someone listening to this?Sarah:I think one of the tips you always s give is the asking at the right time for referrals from clients, because that’s a real driver for new business. So making sure you’ve got that, when things have gone right with a project, when you’ve got this strong relationship with your clients and you have demonstrated that your agency is really working int eh best possible way with the best possible results that moment is perfect to be able to ask who else can benefit from these sorts of services?  And they historically with us we’ve had clients that are really happy to pass on this referral and just to say yeah well it’s worked for me so why wouldn’t it work for this other associate? And it’s a brilliant way to move through and win new business. Jenny:I’m so glad you said that, Sarah, because that’s spot on. And I think Agencynomics have done a couple of surveys recently to show that I thinks its 30 percent of new business comes from clients who refer you to someone else or move somewhere else and take you with them. That’s huge, so if we’re not good at spotting the opportunities to ask for referrals then you know, it’s a missed opportunity. Sarah:Exactly, yes, just having that relationship where it’s possible to ask as well. You should be as an account director or account manager comfortable with you clients to that degree where you can happily ask for that. And if you don’t have that relationship its probably something you need to continue to work on.Jenny:Really good point. Ruby, who inspires you, who do you follow? What do you listen to, what do you read? You’ve mentioned resources for your role like LinkedIn, setting up Google Alerts, following your clients on social and understanding their industries. Where do you get this information, what do you do?Ruby:So I do a lot of talking I think. Rather than going to these sort of platforms I think I just do a lot of talking with others within client services. I have a former colleague at a previous agency that continues to inspire me, Jody Simpson, she’s just an absolute pocket rocket and even now we’ve both moved on , we’re both in separate agencies but we kind of whenever we’ve got an issue, it could be a client issue or just a general question it’s just having that network where you can kind of tap in and say I just need a bit of help, I’m a bit stuck, I don’t know where to go with this and being able to share stories or shed a bit of advice, or read a difficult email things like that. We do it together, Sarah and I and I would say that it’s those moments that inspire my career. I’m not a massive one for kind of reaching out or looking at and following people in this space. I think it’s more I have probably quite a small close knit network that inspires my career and definitely amongst the team at Thursday, Sarah, Simon, talking to other people that are right in the thick of it, I think that’s what helps me in my role.Jenny:Great, that’s really good advice. What about you Sarah?Sarah:Actually I have to say I’m quite similar to be honest. I think we all try and keep up to speed with what’s happening and there are things, I like to read Creative Review and that sort of thing because I’m at heart creative and that interests me. Keeping up to speed and seeing what the latest creative thinking is and the odd podcast but there’s nothing that I would say I religiously would go to, but like Ruby for me it’s conversations. And in those conversations people put you on to things all the time. Jenny, with me before you’ve said, have you heard this, have you read that? And I’ve got a weird personality that if someone says that to me I have to then do it. Have you read that, and it’s a whole book. Yes, I will then go and read that book. So there are little things but nothing that, I’ll take advice from other people on what to read and have those conversations. And we all seem to be pretty much up to speed so it seems to be working.Jenny:Absolutely, that’s great. Great advice. Final question – anyone listening to this who’s thinking about getting into agency account management what would your one piece of advice be? And don’t say don’t do it!Ruby:I would say be present on LinkedIn, make sure you build yourself a great profile and reach out to people in the industry. Everyone within account management, we love to chat. Reach out to people and just say hey have you got 5 minutes, can I have a chat? I’m thinking of getting into this industry  would you be able to shed some light. And just having that conversation it will build your confidence and it will also clarify whether it is a route that you want to take.Jenny:Brilliant advice. Sarah, anything else?Sarah:I think networking events, things like we do Tea and Toast at Thursday and a couple of other networking events that our marketing manager puts our way sometimes when things come up that are of interest. And I think that’s a brilliant way, you just, now that it’s all on Zoom if feels like it’s going to be a bit awkward particularly when they’ve got breakout rooms and you’ve got to chat to people you’ve never met, on Zoom. But actually, weirdly, it really works. I’ve found it really works. And I’ve met some really interesting people and if I was just starting out in this career I think that would be a great way to just to kind of get that exposure, to chat to people and to find out who you click with and if they potentially run an agency or work in that sector then it’s just a great intro.Jenny:Good advice, very good advice. Where can people reach you if they want to contact you to have a further chat?Ruby:LinkedIn, I’m always on LinkedIn. So just reach out, send a message and then we can set up a Zoom call.Jenny:Same for you Sarah?Sarah:I’m the same, yeah. I very often check my LinkedIn account.Jenny:Brilliant, alright. So thank you both so much, this has been so valuable. I know that you’ve shared so many tips and I’m sure people are thinking I didn’t think of that, or this was a great reminder or hopefully they are going to come away with some golden nuggets that they can apply in their businesses. So thank you both so much.