Season 6: BONUS Q&A
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Hi, CounterClock listeners. Welcome to the bonus Q&A episode for CounterClock Season 6. Joining me in person in the booth, as always, is the one, the only, Ashley Flowers. Hi. Yes. I can't believe this is number six of this. I know. It's kind of crazy to me. And honestly, I'm kind of stoked that we get to do it in person because I know in the past, the Q&A is like, just because of our schedules, it's always been like remote. But I think there's such a value, like,

being in person, get your reaction. I'm so excited because you've done, there's been more stuff that has happened since the season has come out, right? Yeah, for sure. There's always more reporting. There's always like things that I've learned that like,

Like, you haven't even learned yet. No, because, I mean, we're already working on season seven. And so, like, this is truly, like, the update I'm getting right now. And I'm excited to learn along with the listeners what has happened. Yeah, and, like, there's going to be a couple moments today, I think, that you're going to have that sort of reaction moment because...

There's stuff that I haven't really revealed to you. We've been busy, and I kind of want to jump right in because I do think that one of the people, one of the names that I'm going to kind of bring up is a name that sort of reoccurred throughout the season. And so...

Any guesses on who it might be? There was like a hundred names this season, I think. So also, by the way, you're gonna have to remind everyone of like who's who. Yes, I know. This is someone you've talked to or something has happened with this person since? Yeah, something has happened. And you're right. There are a ton of names. Like there's, we have a whole chart, I think, on the website for this. But it's Ezekiel Brown.

Okay. Which is, this is a guy from Williamston who had, like, a couple of criminal convictions for drug dealing in Williamston in the 90s. Larry Howell, Tremaine Howell's dad, like, knew him. Yeah. And he, like, maybe saw Doug that night, right? Like, that was the whole thing is, like, when Doug was at the, like,

grocery store, whatever it was, wherever he went to. Yeah, like, Sandy Wag, Doug's wife, like, sent Ezekiel's name and a couple other names to Doug's family, like, in the days and weeks after his death. Like, hey, I'm hearing rumors around town like these people may have been in his presence, maybe not. To date, there's never been a confirmed name tied with the two suspected drug dealers that were allegedly with Doug. Right, and you had tried to track him down. You even went to his place, right? You called him. Oh, yeah. This is the guy. This is the guy who also...

called me and said like, hey, you know, I'm Ezekiel Brown. And I asked him like, did you know Doug? And then you even pointed out like something specific he asked me, which like was kind of like a red flag to you. That was feels like a lifetime. What did I ask? You asked, you said, hey, it's odd to you that he said, how was Doug killed? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I was like, yes, it was.

weird to me that he asked how Doug was killed instead of like oh again he said he didn't know this guy but then he says okay well how did he get like killed and it was like who's talking about that and even if you like even if all of a sudden you jogged your memory that's what I remember thinking was so weird at the time is even if your memory was jogged he's the guy that was found on the train tracks yeah like as far as this guy should know who killed him what right so strange

So, obviously, with the season coming out, I've had a lot of people, you know, reach out to me. And people contacted me and said, hey, the guy's voice is...

that's on the phone call like that's not Ezekiel Brown and and the guy who called me is not Ezekiel Brown you know this for sure I know this for sure now who called you yeah okay so it's it's a weird weird story but basically the guy that called me was just pretending to be Ezekiel

But he had to have known Ezekiel, right? Like, in order for him to even call. So did Ezekiel put him up to it? So here's the thing. The real Ezekiel gave that guy my number. Okay, so he's like, this girl's looking for me. Call her? Yeah, okay. And see what she wants? So we need to back up. We need to back up. So, like, on my first production trip to Williamston, I was with...

Jessica and Melissa, Doug's sisters. We are door knocking and you know what door knocking is. We're just like looking at names, addresses, whatever. And of course, like Ezekiel was on that list. We go to an address that's tied to him. He was just, again, a name on a long list of people. I didn't know, like, again, how relevant he would become. I didn't know what he looked like, like nothing. So,

We get to this door to this address. A guy answers and seems pretty grumpy that we're there, but like interacts with us for like a minute or so. And I asked him like, hey, you know, are you Ezekiel Brown? He says, no, not Ezekiel Brown. But Ezekiel comes and goes like, you know, he comes around, whatever. So then we're like, okay, bye. And Melissa shows him the flyer of Doug that she made. Again, these are like family members that are like anything you could do to help, help us.

So we leave. But right before we leave, the guy's like, hey, like, well, give me your number and I'll get it to Ezekiel. And I was like, OK, great. Like, I'll take that. So, you know, about 45 minutes goes by. And then Ezekiel calls you. Right, right, right. So he takes the number. 45 minutes goes by. I get a call from a guy who says he's Ezekiel Brown.

I'm none the wiser because, again, I've never seen or spoken with Ezekiel Brown. I don't really know how important of a person he is. And of course, we have the conversation and, you know, I play the tape in the show and the episodes come out. And I am so glad that I did that because people that reached out to me said like, hey, that guy that said he's Ezekiel on that call, like,

That's not his voice. Yeah. Oh, my. Not his voice. God. So I was like, okay, like, what does this mean? Like, how do I get to the bottom of this or whatever? So through conversations, I was able to kind of like work my sources. And I was able to have someone send me a photo of the real Ezekiel Brown, like as he looks today. Yeah. And Ashley, you are not going to believe this.

The guy in that photo I got is the guy who was on the porch. The one that answered the door? The one that answered the door. Yes. So this is the same guy who said, you know, he didn't know Doug Wag on the porch. He couldn't help Melissa and Jessica and that he would like pass my number along. So he got, he, it was him. He pretends not to be him. And then he has someone else call you. What? To like figure out what you're doing or what you know? So that's...

That's what's hard to wrap my brain around is like why he did this sort of like bizarre ruse. Why wouldn't he just talk to you right then and there? Why wouldn't he just talk to me right then and there? And not only that, it wasn't like I was there as like this pressing journalist, like with all these questions like I was bombarding with. Like I was just a totally... I was set up. Like that's what I was set up. I was set up. And so thankfully though...

Again, through additional reporting, I was able to actually follow back up with this. And I got the real Ezekiel Brown's phone number and I called him. Okay. Did you record it? I totally recorded it. Okay. Well, I got to hear it. Okay. I have it queued up, so let's play it. Hello. Hello. Hi. Is this Zeke? Yeah. Hey, Zeke. This is Delia D'Ambra. How are you? Delia D'Ambra.

I think I spoke to you at your house a couple months ago last year. About what? Well, I was looking for you and I think my message got passed along to another person that I spoke to on the phone. Let me tell you something. Don't call me no more. I'm going to put the police on y'all.

Well, I just want to know why you had someone else call me. It's not my brother. I'm not related to Doug Wag. Well, that's why when I came to see you before...

what i know it escalates quickly it goes so quickly it goes from like who you are i've never heard of you to i'm gonna get the police if you keep hounding me i know and i just want to be clear too here because i think this is an important point like other than the one door knock where he pretended not to be him pretended not to be him and this phone call

These are the only two times I have had any interaction with Ezekiel Brown in any sort of probative way or at all. So, like, I've respected 100% what he's asked me. You know, again, at this point, I don't think it's going to it's pretty fruitless to continue to do this. Because he's not playing ball.

Exactly. And again, what I can't seem to make a lot of sense of is why someone would go so out of their way to have a friend or someone pretend to be them to call me. Like it boils down to what you said earlier, which is like it had to have been just to figure out like,

What I knew and what I was after beyond just like, oh, yeah, I don't know this girl. She's bothering me. It could be a scam. Like, it doesn't feel like that at all to me. Well, no. And I mean, especially now when you say it could be a scam. He knows about the show.

Oh, for sure. Clearly, that phone call indicates that. Right. And other people have probably, the people who know him have obviously contacted you who could recognize his voice and said that's not him. So people in his life are probably talking about it. So, I mean, he knows exactly who you are and why you're calling.

Yeah. And so I played that same phone call for Melissa Lee, Doug's sister, because of course, like her and Jessica were there with me when we door knocked. They were there with me when he called me back or when the person called me back pretending to be him. So I wanted to get her reaction to this. So I'm going to play you a clip of her reacting to it.

Before that, did anyone have any guesses of who it was that actually called you? So that's the other crazy thing too. And again, another point to mention is that I don't know the identity of the person who called pretending to be Ezekiel. What I do know is that the number that called me is to a man named Edward Howell Jr., which is Tremaine Howell's

father's cousin. So it's a person that is directly related to Tremaine Howell, which makes it all the more odd, all the more weird that whoever was pretending to be Ezekiel is connected to Tremaine, his family at least. So yeah, super weird, super weird. Okay, let me listen to what Melissa said. Okay. I had a feeling because he wouldn't say much. And then when the person called you back, their voice was like high pitched or something. It was a

Oh, I've got chills right now. Wow. Why would he not be willing to talk to you right there when you're face to face with him? I'm almost speechless. I still have to kind of let that sink in a little bit. But I'm not really surprised, though, honestly. It surprises me, but it doesn't.

So in the end, does Ezekiel Brown know more than he's saying? Like, I don't know. But again, back to the point of the fact that he put someone up to calling me from a number tied to Tremaine's family is just kind of like, it's very weird to me. I don't think that...

the odds. Like, the odds are really not, like, that's not likely, right? It's just not a logical thing to happen. Especially when you take into account that Larry Howell, Tremaine's dad, said that, hey, I knew Ezekiel for a long period of time. He kind of vanished after Tremaine's death. But he also confirmed for me that, like, Ezekiel had loose connections to this big

Big Ten organization, this Big Ten entity of people that were, you know, allegedly calling the shots in the drug trade in and around Martin County. So I think we have to talk about the Big Ten for a minute because a couple listeners in the questions they submitted brought up like some questions about the Big Ten. And where I've landed is that that was, was, is, is

still a real thing that people know about, that talk about. And one of those people was a guy named Jay Warren. And so Jay Warren is not someone that you hear in the original episodes because for months and months in the very beginning, I had tried to contact him. He's a former North Carolina Highway Patrol state trooper. He worked for Highway Patrol up until 1995 and then coincidentally went to go work for CSX Railroad, which is the same railroad company that owned the tracks Doug died on.

So he goes to work for CSX in 95, but in 91, Jay was in Highway Patrol. So Andy Holloman, who is the Williamson police detective that you hear a lot in the show, as well as Randy Jones, who was the train operator who hit Doug, was like, hey, like,

Jay Warren, Jay Warren, Jay Warren. So I tried for a long time to get a hold of Jay and never got any communication back. Well, of course, with the release of the season, his daughter is like a huge crime junkie. She's a huge counterclockwise listener. And I love it. It's always the daughters who are like, Dad, it's such a great form of PR. If that's what you do, it's like your work speaks for itself. So his daughter ended up listening and like

episode two, she's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, goes to her dad. And dad's like, oh yeah, I got some messages from that little girl, you know, a while ago. I thought she was a scammer. So like, no, I'm not out there scamming people trying to like do a podcast. So anyway, long story short, I got ahold of Jay. He did an interview with me and like,

He specifically could tell me about, you know, the early 1990s, mid-1990s, like being a state trooper there in Martin County. And like he said that like there were drug busts and things happening, but there was always known by law enforcement that there is or was like an entity sort of control of the bigger market. Like basically when they would bust, you know, smaller level dealers or whatever, like they never felt like they were able to get to where it was originating, the top of the food chain kind of thing. So he told me about

I'll just call it these rumors and stories that he was hearing that were not only unusual, but they were like oddly specific. I want to listen to the clip from him. The rest will make on small dealers, though. Small, small dealers around. Never really any big...

drug ring type dealerships, usually small individuals that they would get. You know, but where were they getting it from? You know, that's the question. It had to be coming in somewhere. I mean, I always heard for one thing, and of course I was never able to prove it, that there was a lot of drugs coming into a certain shoe shop in Martin County. It was a pretty...

that standing citizen that owned it and i heard that the drugs were coming in that shoe shop because he would import chinese leather and dogs couldn't sniff through that leather and i heard it be big prominent businessmen in williamston business owners some of the prominent citizens were the ones that were funding the money to bring it in and i knew all these businessmen you know they were top up standing citizens i'd eat breakfast with them and all but

Were all those men white?

All right, Ashley, I'd love to know your thoughts on this. Ten of them? I

I know. It's very oddly specific, like I said, when he's like, no, these are just rumors. But I'm like, these feel like very specific rumors. Yeah. Did he name any of the businesses? So he did to me. And I kind of want to be like cautious here, right? So I've looked into names and businesses and different families and stuff and, you know, spoken independently with people to corroborate some of it. But...

Really, though, we have to remember that this is just Jay's recollection and claim. And so I really haven't gotten to the point of like wanting to put that out there because I want to triple source it. Because these are like, yes, it's specific what he was telling me at the same time. Like, I do need to have a couple layers behind these sort of allegations. Am I also reading too much into it that he talked about car dealerships and Doug Wag was in a new car? Yeah. So there's like little... I know, your mind is going like where my mind is going. But...

you know, I think in order to really like nail it down. Did he say that it was like fully infiltrating law enforcement? Oh yeah. Yeah. He was, he was saying that like whatever was going on was known by law enforcement. Like this, this alleged big 10 entity, any persons connected to it, like, like they knew of it or they were allowing it to happen. Both.

According to him, it was, the rumor was both, that there were some people that let things slide and there were others like himself who were just sort of like, what's going on here? But again, if you're not in

the drug task force, for example, or you're like, your assignment isn't drug enforcement. Like, you're going to hear and see all these things, but you're going to kind of... So I think there were some people that knew, some people that didn't. And you kind of see that throughout season six. Like, you get that from the different law enforcement people that we talk to. And I think Jay is one of those people. So there'll be more, hopefully, on that. Oh, my God.

But yeah, I do think we should get to some more of the other questions that listeners submitted. And I think when I did the tally, the most asked question this season by far was people wanted to know whether the owner of the laundromat that Doug's flyer was hanging in had any cameras that could be checked for like when it was taken down or whatever. I assume if there was one, we'd be able to check.

I'd be on that. I know. I'm like, please. I work for those camera companies. It didn't even occur to me to ask you that because I'm like, oh, they don't have it. It's funny what jumps out to the listeners that maybe doesn't hit us right away or you right away. My answer to that would be no, only because of my knowledge of it. So the laundromat where this happened is straight out of the 80s and 90s.

Like, we have a soda machine that still takes real quarters. Like, a box TV that's hanging in, like, a plexiglass case on the ceiling. Classic. I think there's a couple Bibles sitting around, which, like, you know, very south. So, yeah. Based on what I observed and then some conversations Melissa had with the owner, like, I don't think there were any cameras there. Yeah.

I don't necessarily think that like the flyer going missing, for example, I think a lot of people could have taken away from that, that it was like super highly suspicious. I agree. Like it could have definitely been someone like trying to rid the county of his image, knowing that the podcast was out. But I also think you have to remember too, that it could have been somebody who is just sort of like,

old school and, like, wanted to take it because maybe they feel compelled to hopefully come forward. Like, they wanted the phone number and the information and stuff on the flyer. You're so optimistic. It's adorable. I know. Like, you're so on the, um... What is it? Nefarious. Everything in my mind is nefarious. You're so, like, toot-toot all aboard the conspiracy train. Conspiracy train. Yeah. Again, like, this episode proves it. Well, we're just getting started. But, um, I think I'm less...

less eager to go right there. But I do have to say that... I know, but I've saved a seat for you right next to me. I'm there. In light of very recent events, though, in Martin County and Williamston that are very unusual, I will definitely say that I do think that you and I are going to be on the same team with this one because something has happened that feels even more sus than Doug's flyer going this way.

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So what's happened? All right. So you know that we placed a memorial bench for Tremaine and Nikki and Joyce Jean there at the Roanoke River boat landing. So I got an email from North Carolina Wildlife Commission, which is like the entity that

literally just owns that strip of land by the river. And they sent me some pictures, which I want you to take a look at because I do want people to see just like how severely damaged it is. I mean, there's like slats that are broken out of the frame. The frame itself like sustained a ton of damage.

The guy who emailed me is the same man who helped us, like, coordinate putting it in there and, like, you know, making sure it was anchored in so, like, no one could walk off, you know, steal it or whatever. And he said that their enforcement officer for wildlife noticed the bench like this on June 20th, 2024, which would have been just mere days after the final episodes of CounterClock. When you said the bench was there. When I said the bench was there. So...

It's kind of odd timing. It's weird to me. But, you know, the guy told me that they immediately sent out a repair crew. The bench is operational now. It's usable now. They, like, fixed it up. But I want to know, like, what are your thoughts on this, Ashley? This conspiracy train? I mean, like, looking at the damage, so just to kind of paint a little bit of a picture from what I have, the bench is right by a sidewalk. Like, the back of the bench is to the sidewalk. And the bench, if you're sitting on it, you'd be facing the water, right?

So it's not like it's up against a road or any, like someone had to have done this on purpose because like even the damage doesn't even make sense like it was an accident. There's like the bottom metal part of the bench on the right side is completely displaced and on the ground. But then the top wood slats on the left side are pushed out. It looks like someone rammed it from the back. Like they rammed it and it got sort of obliterated from the vices holding it in on each end. Like

Like those metal vices. You think? Again, when I saw the pictures, where my mind immediately went was that something collided with this bench in a very forceful way. So I want like a full accident reconstruction on this bench. Can we? Can we? So when I first found out about this, I immediately called the Williamson police chief who is in my phone on speed dial. He's been in my phone on speed dial for...

Many, many months. And he told me like, if anything like this happens again, let them know because they would investigate it as vandalism or property damage. And like I initially didn't go like straight to file a police report because again, kind of like you said, it is from a sidewalk. There is a parking lot near this, though there are no parking spots directly like behind it where if someone like actually pulled forward too far, they'd hit the bench. So that's not a possibility. There's no parking spaces next to it.

In fact, there's like many, many, you know, lines that say like no parking. So I just chalked it up to perhaps someone who's just a really bad driver. There is a boat ramp there. They were, maybe they were backing out and their trailer hit it or their car hit it.

But what's really interesting, I know, what's interesting though, and the chief even pointed this out, he's like, whatever the case was, whoever hit it, what they hit it with likely did not go undamaged. Meaning like because of the metal on the bench, their car or their boat trailer or whatever probably has some damage to it from hitting this thing, whether accidentally or intentionally. He's like, so regardless, it's property damage. Either they did it, didn't know it and just drove away or they did realize it and drove away. It's property damage,

But, you know, there's no there's no way. Where's the boat ramp? The boat ramp is like a good distance away from the bed. Delia. But I'm just trying to say, hey, there's a possibility there of this. All right. So if anyone listening accidentally ran into something and has surprise damage on their car and they didn't know, please let me know so I cannot.

spiral on this for the rest of my life. I know it's hard. And to me, my question was to wildlife was, do they have any cameras there? There's a public boat launch. There's a highway right there, you know, whatever. Unfortunately, they don't have any cameras there, you know, because I my first thing was like, let's find out somebody rammed this thing or not. Yeah. But, you know, I think if anything, if it is what you said, right,

where someone intentionally did this because they were angry about the show or they were, you know, upset with what I had found. I think that says a lot about how this work has rattled Martin County and people. Like, if it was intentional, that says something about the person or persons. I mean, it's just a bench to memorialize three kids who were murdered.

Yeah. I think the contention, though, is do people... Not everyone believes they were murdered. And so I think the drama around what happened to them then is still very real for a lot of people in that community. But I think it's... I'm glad that we're talking about, you know, Tremaine and the girls because we did have quite a few questions come in about different things about their case. Because even to this day, you and I still have a ton of questions about the teenagers. And we...

One question I kept seeing come over and over in emails was if I had ever reached out or gotten in touch with Nikki or Joyce Jean's family members. Because you hear a lot from Tremaine's parents. And you and I even said, like, in the production process, like, hey, you know, we wish so badly we could get their voices in this thing. Because there are two victims in this. Two of many victims.

But again, the beauty of the podcast coming out, people contact me after the show comes out. And I was able to get in touch with Michelle Wilson, who is Joyce Jean's older sister by a few years. And Joyce Jean's mother, whose name is also Joyce. So just clarifying. So Joyce Jean, according to her family, they called her by the nickname Lynette, which was her middle name. Okay.

So if you hear like in some of the clips here, them say Lynette or anything, they're talking about Joyce Jean. Joyce is the mom. Michelle is the sister. And I was able to interview them because like every night of the week, they spend an evening together. Michelle goes over to her mom's and they agreed to do the first like on record interview that they've done in like 30 years about this. They did on speakerphone together in her mom's living room. And I think it's really beautiful that we were able to get them to want to talk to us. But

you know there's a lot of things to talk about discuss with them i mean yeah i mean i have a lot of questions i feel like the big one because so much of the questions we had going into this is like there's

all this talk of people saying like, oh, they had marks or injuries that indicated they had been tortured. They didn't just drown in a river. And then we have other people saying different things. Did they have any opinion on that? Like, did they see anything that they did? Yeah. So I did ask them about that specifically. And here's what Michelle told me.

That's what Dr. Gillen said to you.

Now, when you looked at Joyce Jean's pictures, when you say that they were bloody, and I don't want to be graphic, but it is important for listeners and people to understand because this is information that has not been ever released. What did you see in those pictures, maybe specifically, that gave you doubts about what you were being told from law enforcement? Well...

When I was looking at her, I mean, she was kind of bloated, of course, from the water. I understood that. But she had blood and stuff on her body. So, and that was the reason why I was questioning her, asking her why you have blood spots, why she got blood and stuff on her body.

And she just kept saying, when you been in the river for a long time, wherever in the river, they're going to eat off the body. I don't know what Jermaine looked like, nor Nikki. The only person I got to saw was my sister because I wanted to see, was that her? Y'all saying that's her. I knew it was her because of the clothes she had on. Not because I'm just looking at her because I couldn't really hardly recognize her. But due to the fact of the clothes.

Where the blood come from? Because this ain't from no fish and whatever you're claiming, what's in the river. That don't come from that. Did you see bloody wounds on Joyce Jean or did you see blood on her skin or blood on her clothing or all of the above? All. So this is what's so wild to me about Dr. Mary Gilliland's findings is

Did we, or like, did you see, I can't remember, did you see the report or did she just tell you what she, you saw the reports, right? Oh yeah, I have the autopsy reports, yeah. Was there anything in there about animal activity or like whatever she would? No, there is no specific language in there.

in any of the teenagers' autopsy reports, specifically the girls' though, about like fish activity or animal activity causing bleeding. And like, honestly, there isn't a scenario like forensically when you just sort of go out 30,000... I was just going to say that like if they're deceased from drowning, there is no bleeding. Right. It's a post-mortem injury. Yeah. So if their official cause of death or manner of death, whatever, is drowning, then they're dead by the time they're

in the river and when their bodies have floated up, you know, a day or two later. So even in a scenario where fish or there was any sort of activity like that, again, there's no bleeding. Blood should not be getting on their clothing. I know in one of the girls' underwear, it was noted that there was blood on the underwear. Like, again, we can't know exactly what that came from, but there's blood on their clothing, according to Michelle, from what she knows and sees. And so, like, there's no blood circulation. Like, it doesn't... Even if...

Even if they went in and there's freaking piranhas in this river, you know, it's something like something... Which there are not. There are not. No, I know that. I'm not suggesting that. But if there's some kind of...

that would start like eating away or whatever immediately when potentially blood could still be fresh and whatever. If you're already in the water though, this is what's wild. It's like that's going to go out into the water. That is not going to go onto your clothes and stain your clothes when you are already in the water. Right. So there's no blood, but if there was no blood.

This just reinforces, I think, this point that I've tried to make throughout the storytelling process is that the paperwork in these cases is a very different version of events from what the loved ones were told every time they had questions back in 1992. And not only that, like speaking of being back then, Michelle and Joyce both told me that

They experienced a very similar scenario that Tremaine Howell's parents experienced when it came to their interactions with the funeral directors and with police, law enforcement, about specifically the teens' bodies. Seeing them, not seeing them, what happened, you know, in the funeral home stuff. So I want you to listen to this clip from Michelle. Okay.

Somebody called me and told me that they found some kids down there, somebody down by the river. So I got in my car and went down there. And the police stopped me. They wouldn't let me go in the father bag. They told me to turn around and go back home. I said, if it is my daughter, I want to go see her. They told me no, told me go home. He wouldn't let my mother see the body. So he grabbed the body bag real tight. And what you just saw, the stomach bag.

Did you for a second believe the story that law enforcement came up with about how they got in the river?

Why?

And so, by we were staying over here, we never went to the river. So that's another reason why I said why, if something was wrong and Tremaine was, if he was driving the truck, I feel in my heart he wasn't driving the truck, but if he was driving the truck, you had to pass wrong apartments before you get to the river. So why would you go to the river and skip the house? I mean, that's how I feel like somebody else was in that truck driving. I just don't feel like they were driving.

So while we're on this topic, like Michelle said, about the truck, someone asked if I ever confirmed whether anyone else, like besides Tremaine's aunt, like saw that the headlights were on when the truck was pulled out. Like in one of her soundbites, she's like, you know, they pulled the truck out and the lights were on. And the answer is yes. Like there were several newspaper articles that I found that said when that truck is being, you know, pulled out,

pulled out that the headlights are on when it's coming out. And that struck everyone also as odd. And then the fact that it had some damage on the front fender. I know another person asked about the gear shift.

Yes. Yes. Yeah. So people were like, they were really in the details. I love it. I do too. So yeah. So this person that wrote in, they must have like some knowledge of car engines or truck engines or whatever, but they asked if the engine, or basically said like, if the engine was running when the truck went into the river, that the water from the river would have gone through the truck's air intake system and that would have disabled the truck from really

really ever turning on again. So the fact that we know from not only eyewitnesses, but documentation that the truck cranked right up when they towed it out would indicate that one could assume that the truck was not running when it went into the water or else the engine would have been toast, right? Which to me is a really important point because I think that would indicate that when Tremaine's truck went into that river...

It was not on and him revving the engine and playing chicken or whatever it was at the boat ramp, right? I think it really lends itself more to the fact that the truck's engine was off when the truck went in the river, which could mean someone turned it off and it rolled into the river. And I think that's where you kind of have that

scenario, which doesn't align with what all the law enforcement says, you know, from various things of he's playing chicken or they were, you know, messing around. With the point this listener made, I thought that was really interesting to bring forward. And of course, like, I wouldn't have known that. No.

So, yeah, I just thought it was really interesting. And I think it indicates, too, that it just goes back to one more weird thing. That means something could have, bad have been going on. Yeah. So, like, we don't know if it was in drive or neutral or... We don't know. We do know that the keys were still in it. So, but I think, again, if it's cranking up and running, which it was, I don't know, is a weird factor of the case that I think would indicate that it rolled into the river, whether intentionally or by accident. But...

But I just... When it was off. Yeah, when it was off.

The next couple of questions, I think a lot had to do with Spanky. So Alex Brown, nicknamed Spanky, he was the only teenager that didn't go with the group that night to like go get sodas. And one listener asked a specific question. They said, you know, if authorities wanted to get rid of Spanky or kill him or whatever, why didn't they just do that when they had him like in for questioning, like shortly after the deaths or annihilation?

another time where I think it was in 93, he got caught for like car larceny or something. And so either one though, I think the question is like, if these cops are corrupt, why don't they just take him out? But I think you have to go to so many wild things were happening. It was too hot. It was too hot. Like the timing was nuts. So if you, if you think about it, you know, you have Tremaine and the girls, they die in early August of 92. Then you have, um,

two months later, almost literally almost to the day, two months later, you have the Sheriff Jerry Beach is killed in the Oak City bank robbery incident, which is super wonky. And then just literally a few months after that, in January of 93, you've got the guy who was allegedly in the bank robbing it, who killed Sheriff Beach, dies, you know, in his prison cell.

There's just so... If somebody else in this scenario dies in that time frame and seriously goes missing, it's going to raise a lot of red flags, particularly in the minority community, which we know at that time...

people were beginning to put it together. They were beginning to wonder if any of these events were connected. And Joyce Jean's family, now that I've talked with them, was part of that thought process with the Howells as well of what is going on here? Like, are these connected to our kids, whatever? And Ashley, you are not going to believe what they told me was going on also in August and October of 1992. ♪

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But the next day,

They had a bank robbery, and that's when he got killed. You said that Bucky Holloman called you, Joyce, and said, hey, we're going to call a press conference and talk about what happened to the kids. Yes. And then right after that is when the bank robbery in Oak City happened. Yes. And so that press conference Bucky was talking about never happened. Right. Yes. Did that make you suspicious? Mm-hmm.

I feel like all that was fishy to me. That's what's so interesting to me because obviously in speaking with the Howells, Jerry Beach had contacted Larry and Denise a few days before he was killed in that bank robbery and he had intended to meet with them on that day. And obviously he died and never did. So the fact that you guys are saying that there was going to be some sort of update about Larry

Yes, yes. They interviewed me outside my house and after that, everything aired on TV and everything, the police chief buggy.

The police chief contacted your landlord at Roedhoek Apartments, and your landlord told you to calm down. What did you think that meant? Yeah.

That's insane. What? I know. I told you these moments were going to happen for you today. I can't. Oh, I wish you would have had them like even before this. What did they say about Spanky? Like, did they trust him? Did they? Yeah. So Michelle, like, definitely thinks that Spanky saw something that night when Tremaine and the girls were at the river. And here, I'll just let you listen to it for yourself what she said.

Did either of you have any conversations with him after they were obviously missing? No. Did he ever come back around? No. He just showed up at the funeral. I knew that he knew what happened, but I guess he was too scared to come forward.

And, you know, Ashley, what's really heartbreaking to me is that, you know, Michelle and Joyce told me that, you know, Joyce, Jean, Tremaine, Nikki, they all asked Michelle multiple times before they went to get sodas, you know, come with us, you know, like, just come on. It'll be fun. And as the older sibling, like you're the oldest in your sibling bunch, like there are just times where you're just like, no. And that particular night, Michelle was tired. She had worked her job and, you

you know, they left. They ultimately left without Michelle. And to this day, Michelle says that, like, she really is grappling with regret for that. She blames herself for not being there for her younger sister. And it's really this feeling of guilt that

from my conversation with her, it feels like she just can't ever shake. I've talked to a lot of people in this scenario now where they're like, oh, like if I would have been and maybe things would have been different. But the other thing I always think about is like, maybe Michelle would be gone too. Yeah. And that's such a, it's, I think it's like the survivor's guilt a little bit for her. But yeah,

it just really breaks my heart because, you know, she knows for sure, like, none of this is her fault, but it's hard. You can't help but wonder what if. Yeah. And how things would have been different for better or for worse for the same. Especially going, like, so long without any answers, too. It's like wondering if you have some resolution, but they don't really have any closure. Yeah. And wondering what if. And she spoke to that here in these next couple clips.

Somebody took their life. It was too young. She didn't get experience to have a boyfriend, none of that. So you took everything away from her that she never got an opportunity to experience. I just felt like the police department had a lot to do with everything. And they choose not to protect us, but their job is to protect and serve. And they failed on every aspect of it.

All right, so we are down to the last couple of questions. There were a whole bunch about the Oak City incident.

bank robbery. And, you know, a lot of them, like, I can't really answer without getting my eyeballs on that NCSBI investigative file, which, you know, I believe still exists. You know, they claim that it's exempt from anybody ever looking at it. I believe that it is still around and

But there were a couple of questions I just couldn't really address because they were asking things that like I don't know, like I wish I knew. There was one person, though, that kind of brought out something that was interesting to me. They said, hey, you know, you know, October 12th, 1992, the day of the incident, that would have been Columbus Day. And they were like, so why would the bank have been open on a holiday?

a day. Wait, did you fact check that? Is that real? It is real. Yeah, it is actually a thing. And honestly, it was a detail that like didn't really, it didn't really like, I don't know, it just didn't matter for me because I, it, as I was dissecting the case, I was like,

you know, there's so much eyewitness account. There's so much information. There's so many people I've talked to that were like, no, the teller was going there. You know, I talked to the guy who was like his aunt who was the teller that day who was going into the bank. And it is a good question because then you kind of have to step back and go like, ooh, like what does that mean? Um,

you know, why did the bank tell her notice something was off? Like, why was she there showing up on the holiday? Like, why were the cleaners there? Why were the Wiggins there, like, cleaning if it's a holiday, too? So, you know. I can understand. I mean, so Columbus Day is a bank holiday, I assume. I believe so, yeah. Again, this was like, I had to kind of sit back and just go like, ugh.

Does it mean anything? It doesn't mean anything. I understand the cleaners being there, especially if they're like a contract company. Like I think about here at the office, the company, it's like a family that we contract with who comes and cleans the office. And it doesn't matter. Like they could come on the holidays, whatever is best for their schedule. So that is actually not weird to me at all that the cleaners would be there.

But it is strange that, like, that he would have been. Because it goes back to, like, what was the ultimate motive or goal of this? Because if it was a bank holiday, no one's working. Or maybe do you do it because you think no one's working and that there will be less casualties? What does it mean? It's a weird, interesting detail. And I think for me, I'm not really sure, like, I have a clear answer. What I can say, though, is that I go back to Larry Jones, the bank robber. Mm-hmm.

You know, he has the couple, the cleaning couple inside the bank already before the teller's there because she notices that the blinds are down and stuff, which is like weird to her, which is why she calls the police, you know, according to the story. I didn't interview her directly.

So my whole thing was like the bigger question is like, did the Wiggins have their own key to this bank to let themselves in and clean? Probably. Probably. Like that's not weird. Like they can't get in the vault. They can't get in the money drawers. Like what are they going to, you know? Yeah. So I think that's really common. So I do think that he intercepted them while they were there to clean. Again, them showing up to clean on a holiday I don't think is a weird thing.

the bank teller showing up on the bank holiday, uh, maybe a little bit weirder. But then again, like my husband used to work in banking, like sometimes people that work at banks or manage them, whatever, like they are there. Um, when it's not like business, they may go in to grab something from like, you know what I mean? Like, so I don't know that purpose, but I think it kind of just made me kind of pause and think, but I don't think it changes a lot about the inexplicable facts of that day of like what happened. Like it,

The fact that it's a Monday and a Holly makes it all the more strange that Larry Jones is there to rob the bank in the first place. I was just going to say, it just makes it all fishier because I remember there was stuff about even just the way it got reported or notified, right? Like the people who were showing up were like, that didn't totally add up. Yeah. More questions. Great. Yeah, and...

I think I, you know, I have here in my notes that like, it all comes back for me. The weirdness of it is that we know that Larry Howell and Denise Howell were supposed to meet with Sheriff Beach on that day. And the fact that, you know, he had this meeting with them, he had called them and then was like, oh no, I can't do it Friday. Let's move it to Monday. I definitely want to do it on Monday. And the call was about Tremaine's case, right? And it was about Tremaine's case, which was odd to the Howells because they're like, Martin County Sheriff's Office is...

is not one of the entities working on their case because of the jurisdictional issues around the river and all that and where they went missing from. So like a lead law enforcement officer, the sheriff, contacted them saying, I want to talk to you about the case, the case of which I and my department have no jurisdiction over.

was so notable to them. And so then when Sheriff Beach gets killed... On the day they were supposed to meet originally. Yeah, at the very top of the day, at the moment, you know, everything's, all hell's breaking loose. Like, it just begins to be... It was strange. Odd. And I think the question is, is who else would have known?

about that scheduled meeting between the sheriff and the Howells. And so we don't know. I would imagine, though, that if anyone else did know about that planned meeting, it would have been someone in Jerry's circle, his inner circle, right? Like someone in his immediate command staff, someone that you say, hey, I'm not going to be in the office until 1030 or 11, you know, or I can't be in court or whatever. Like that's the kind of thing that you would say. And

the frustrating thing about that is all of those people that fit that bucket would have also responded to the bank robbery and would have been there and were there. So it's like, it just, it's really frustrating, I think, when you think about the questions that they still have, the family still has. But everything about that bank robbery situation just is hard to navigate. Like factually, it's hard to navigate and like wrap your brain around. Yeah.

Did you ever hear from Beach's family? Like, did anyone? Yeah, so Jerry Beach has an adult daughter. She did reach out to us. Super nice. She actually also pointed out the same thing, that October 12th was Columbus Day in 1990, which I'm like, Columbus Day? What is with this Columbus Day thing? She said that she really, you know, she was really glad with how we portrayed her dad for, you know, again, the things that we know were true about some of his actions and some of the things that people had questions of.

Like, is he a good guy? Is he a bad guy? That kind of thing. But did they ever question what happened? From her messages to us, I think she is fully like, we just believe what happened. She said it was really interesting to hear and kind of work through all the details. I mean, I don't know. She might be having a reconciling of her own that she didn't share with us. But it was good to hear someone from his family reach out. I know his wife...

If she's not passed away, she was in really poor health. Okay. Which, again, was another reason I was like... Yeah. You know, but...

Yeah, it was good actually to hear from someone from his family. There was also a lot of questions about where Doug's case, because, you know, we keep coming back to Doug kind of throughout the season. And I do want to keep coming back to him is where his case sits now. And I do want to let people know that his family is going to pursue an exhumation of him. He's buried in Mississippi, but they need help to actually like

navigate financially that process. And so what's really cool is that the Martin County Sheriff's Office, Drew Robinson, who's like the chief deputy, literally just a couple of days ago, like they are synced up. So like the sheriff's office in Martin County is synced up with Melissa and her family, lawyers, judges in Mississippi to like do this like, you know, process that has to happen. And so they're really on board with it.

Like I said, he emailed like kind of all the next steps that needs to happen. They have a lawyer. The family has a lawyer in Mississippi because basically like I didn't know this, but they have to have a lawyer go in court and get a judge in Mississippi to like get a court order for an exhumation because it's like a civil process thing. Like to get the exhumation order to go do it.

And then to have the remains exhumed properly, Drew's going to go out there in person, like be there every step of the way. I was going to say, I'm going to need somebody to like literally sit on top of Doug Wag's grave from now until then, because I just don't trust, I don't trust anyone. I need someone watching the whole thing. I want it on tape. That's Melissa. That's Melissa. She's going to be, she's going to be there, I'm sure with her phone, like videotaping everything. Is there any talk of exhuming?

exhuming Tremaine and Joyce Jean and Nikki? No. And Tremaine actually was exhumed. I think in the show I mentioned his family had him exhumed for a second autopsy in February of 93. But again, because of the

quality of the job done on his body in the first burial. They really didn't get anything. And the pathologist who did it, who was from out of state, totally like independent, just said like, there's really nothing else we can determine from his remains. And so then he was re-entombed. So I don't know. I certainly think that, I mean, at this point, it's kind of like we need some answers.

I think what would probably hold more answers in the girls' case potentially just this time later would, like, if their clothing or anything is still around or with them. Well, yeah. I don't know. And, like, I wonder, and again, if they suffered anything else before they went into the water, again, if there was blood.

I mean, the only thing in my mind, it's skeletals. Like, were there any fractures that we can point to? And that's what kind of always, like, stuck with me in Tremaine's case, especially when we talk about his teeth, which I know is something that we focused on. You know, if he did sustain a hard enough blow...

to knock out his two front teeth. My son just fell the other day and almost knocked out a front tooth. And, you know, we thought he had, like, fractured his, you know, bone inside of his gums or whatever. And so, like, it just got me thinking, could there have been, if looked a little bit more closely at, could there have been some other damage that would maybe point more in the direction? And, you know, unfortunately, I just think,

I just think it was, those answers would have been retrieved back then or shortly after. And I don't know if they can be today. But yeah, I encourage families as I've encouraged Doug's, which is like do everything possible, right? But the piece of that is, you know, the financial burden and the mental burden that comes with that too of just kind of like reprocessing through this. But, you know, Doug's family, they got quoted for all their, they have an attorney doing stuff pro bono for them. But like the hard fact is, is like,

in order to do this autopsy, in order to like go through all the procedures and pay for any testing that law enforcement will send off, like they have been quoted about $15,000. And Melissa is raising that money. She is raising it with a GoFundMe for Doug. She's raising it on the Doug Wag Jr. Foundation through the dwagfoundation.com. Like she has been asking people for donations, but you know, the burden is really on them. Wow.

At least they have Martin County behind them. They do, but not financially. Right. It would be a hell of a lot harder, though, if they were fighting it. So we're going to put links to that, I assume, in the show notes. Yeah, so there'll be links in the show notes and on the blog post for this for those campaigns, like in, you know, DWAGfoundation.com. And really, like,

to go back to the money piece for a second, because I think a lot of people will have the question of like, why are they having to like foot the bill for like this thing? But, you know, unfortunately, there's like no concrete proof that Doug Wagg was a murder victim or that he is a victim of crime at all.

And so, you know, in law enforcement's eyes, it makes it really hard to justify expenditures for that. You know, people resources is different, right? Like people working case or communicating, whatever, doing the necessary steps. But like, I think it just becomes a really muddy, a muddy thing. And so because that's kind of the way it is, like the family's just happy that they have cooperation. Like you and I know from covering cases, just to get law enforcement to like sit in a room with you. That's what I'm saying, like be on your side. Yeah, be on your side and be like, okay, we're not going to like just shut up.

shut a door in your face. We're too busy, yeah. Yeah, to them, like, that's just as valuable. So that's a really cool thing about it as well. And, you know, I think this whole thing for Melissa from the beginning was why she created the foundation. Like, she went through the 501c3 process, like, which is, you know, like, dealing with the IRS and all that stuff. Like, that's not... But she did all this with this intention of, like...

going all the way as far as she could go. Yeah. So if you're listening and you want to give, I would definitely say like follow those links. Yeah. Because she knows that people are invested in this and she wants people to be like, if they can be financially, but she knows that like people are emotionally invested in her brother's story, which is super touching in and of itself, but particularly people living in Eastern North Carolina who have listened to this podcast. So here's a clip from her for talking about that.

Do something. Don't just listen to the podcast and be outraged by it. Do something. You know, whatever your position allows you to do, do something. If you have the power to make a difference, do something. You have murderers potentially walking around in a community and that seems to be okay for some people, but it's not okay. It's not okay at all.

So yeah, I think that kind of wraps it up. I mean, we've hit like so many things. So many new things. I mean, this one feels like... A new series. Yeah, less of a Q&A and more of just like quite literally an extra episode. Yeah. I would make sure if you're listening to this and you haven't already hit the follow button...

I would do that because people should be keeping their eye out for a special announcement about the next season because I think it might be coming sooner than everyone might expect. Yeah, so, I mean, you know, I've been absolutely entrenched in season seven for like a good, good bit.

So what I'll say for everyone is that, you know, it will not be nearly as long as people are used to waiting. But yeah, there's a lot to come. Are you willing to tell them where it has taken you? It has taken me to North Carolina again. We are back. It is. I will never leave North Carolina when it comes to this work. But yeah, I'm excited. Wait till you hear it.

Counter Clock is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

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