Season 5: BONUS Q&A
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Hi, CounterClock listeners, and welcome to the bonus Q&A episode of Season 5. Ashley, it still feels weird saying that. Season 5? Yeah. I don't know how there's five seasons of this show out there. I feel like yesterday was, like, my first time listening to Season 1, and I feel like I'm still obsessing over the Denise Johnson case. I know. Me too. And it is hard to believe, like, we're here because...

But, you know, when I look back, I'm so thankful for listeners who participate after binging CounterClock because I can tell from the types of questions that come in when we do these Q&A episodes that like the CounterClock audience is fully committed to being like deep in the weeds with me. And honestly, I

feel very seen. And like, I really do hear people. Yeah. Like my kindred hearts are out there and they are picking up on the really important or, you know, like sometimes these really sketchy things that keep me up at night with a lot of these cases. Yeah, no, it's amazing. I mean, when I see like the comments and chatter online, you can tell that the majority of people, they're not here just like listening to listen. They're actually invested, which is why we're here. This is why we're doing this in the first place. And I think it's what

keeps you and I going because we're not here to entertain, like, especially you, like you're digging in, you're here to find what the heck happened and hold someone accountable. Exactly. And, you know, the best way to do all of those things is to ask questions. So without further ado, let's let's jump right into this thing.

Okay, Ashley, so of the 200-ish questions listeners submitted after season five released, the number one question was, how did Bruce's business associates who went to tell Anne something had happened to Bruce know before she did that he was in some kind of like life or death situation? Essentially, I think the question is, how did Dan Burris, Brett Oubre, Dudley Geigerman, Jared Rickey, like all of these people know so quickly what had happened?

Yeah, I remember, again, when you first were like getting into this, it was one of the things that jumped out about me. It was a question that I had, like, how do these men who aren't related to Bruce know what's happening before his wife, before his legal next of kin does? I know, right. And I think the full explanation, I imagine, is somewhere in NOPD's case file. But like, since I don't have that and I can't look at that,

This is what I think the most reasonable answer to that question is. So Bruce's pickup truck wasn't registered to him. Remember, it was it was registered to Jared's company. So what I'm thinking is the responding officer on scene likely ran the truck's information to try and find out who this victim was. That info. Because he didn't have a wallet. Right. That info came back to Bruce's employer, not Jared.

So that's who got the first phone call. Obviously, if Bruce's employer is who gets that call from NOPD, then, you know, naturally, word's going to spread quickly in his Covington office and with his coworkers that, you know, they need to notify Anne and then, you know, take her down to New Orleans. And Anne told me she got a knock on her door at like 11.

11 a.m. So that's roughly 45 minutes after we know the shooting happened. So it's not like super, super long. Right. So, I mean, really, at the end of the day, I mean, what you and I kind of came to the conclusion of was that the business associates knowing before Ann isn't really that suspicious. Right.

I don't think so. At least not when you put it in context like that. I mean, sure, is it odd? And yeah, I mean, maybe, but like you and I have both covered cases where a victim's job or their boss is notified something is up before a family member gets word. Oh,

Oh, for sure. The second most asked question from listeners had to do with Glenn Angus, the Mississippi businessman who had several phone calls with Bruce in the months before his death, but more importantly, who also was on the phone with Bruce minutes before the murder. On the phone minutes before. Yeah, he is one of the names from this season that I think everyone, including myself, cannot forget. I mean, to Anne's point during her interview earlier,

Why has Glenn not said a word to investigators or anyone about whatever he and Bruce were talking about on the phone as Bruce is, I mean, literally pulling up to the Mark 7 apartments confused about where he's going? I think the answer to that question can only be a few things, right? Like,

One, Glenn isn't involved in the murder and for whatever reason, he's just refused to be a helpful human being. Or two, he is connected to the crime or potential setup in some way, whether inadvertently or intentionally. And because of that, he's choosing to stay quiet to protect himself or someone else,

I honestly don't know. I think Chris summed it up well in one of his interviews when he put it this way. He said, if Glenn was just an innocent bystander in all of this, then it doesn't make sense that he hasn't come forward and been like, hey, I was talking to Bruce right before he was killed and this is what we discussed or here's what I heard going on. Yeah, we're like, we're talking about

chicken wings or like, you know, like, yeah, if you would think if it was innocuous, like it would be, there'd be no reason for him to come forward. And I, I remember hounding on this, like when you were doing your reporting, I'm like, but we got to like talk to Glenn. We got to talk to Glenn. But like, I mean, all the time in your reporting and even since the series has come out, right? Like he's never picked up the phone for you. Never. Has he ever even been,

been in the same room as law enforcement? Well, Ryan Oakwin with Innopedi told me he's never interviewed Glenn like in person, one-on-one. However, Ryan said when the FBI briefly worked on the case a few years ago, they did take a run at Glenn, but he was just flat out uncooperative. And honestly, the conversation that the agents had with him went nowhere.

which to me is kind of wild, right? Because I think most lawyers would argue that Glenn is a material witness in some sense, meaning he holds information that could potentially be material to the homicide investigation. Like,

Right.

Like, I mean, I think this is the bigger question, right? Like, do you think that speaks to what Chris and Caitlin and some of the other people you interviewed have kind of been hinting to, which is that corruption could be a factor in this case? Like, I mean, the real question is, like, is Glenn not being treated as a material witness on purpose?

And my honest answer to that is I don't know. That would be easy to say, right? I mean, like, you know, it's almost like the cry wolf thing. It's like people always want to jump to that. But until I have some solid proof that's what's been happening, like, I don't want to chalk it up to that. Like, maybe I'm more optimistic. Chris and Caitlin, on the other hand, are convinced that's what's been going on and continues to be a problem.

This is going to keep happening. Someone else is going to get hurt. Like, other people are going to get hurt if we don't do something. I think that they've moved it several times. I think they've moved it to officers that were either overwhelmed or just not good enough at their job. Because I think that some of these folks didn't want the case solved. No one wanted the cell phone to be found. I wholeheartedly believe something happened.

inappropriate or sketchy or borderline conspiracy happened at that point for that cell phone because you're telling me they grab the other cell phone that was in possession at the big time communications and that makes it into evidence but not my dad's cell phone if they grab it the same time how does one make it and one not

While we're on the topic of Bruce's cell phone and like material witnesses and stuff, I want to bring up Joyce Whitfield for a second because a lot of listeners had questions about her too. She's the woman from Baton Rouge who ended up with Bruce's cell phone after the murder and was texting Anne from his number. Well,

Well, I would put Joyce in the same category as Glenn Angus in some respect, mostly because of the glaring fact that she had a dead man's cell phone after his murder and gave two varying accounts to NOPD back in 2012 as to how she got it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's not so much the having it. It's the like, oh, I've got two stories as to why I have it. Like, that's the part that's bananas to me. I know. And it's unreal that Joyce's feet were not held to the fire more back then. Like, did she make up that story about buying the phone from Richard Chambers at Big Time Communications to cover for some guy who was staying with her? Like, did she really buy the cell phone from Richard at his shop at all? Like, nobody knows the answers to those questions because...

The detective back in 2012 didn't press her like he should have.

Anyway, a few days before season five came out, a local news station in New Orleans ran a report about the 11th anniversary of Bruce's death. And the reporter mentioned, like, at the very snippet end of the report that NOPD had actually got a hold of Joyce this year. Wait, like an oh, by the way? She was, like, in the wind for years. How'd they find her? Also, like...

know if it's just me. I get far more conspiratorial than you do. I know, like, I jump a lot faster than you, but, like,

Such strange timing that like this happens right before the podcast is about to come out and she magically resurfaces. I know. And I don't know how the timing of all of it went down. Like I'm not part of these conversations, but I do agree that the timing is strange. A part of me hopes that maybe like John and me and Solomon trying to track Joyce down in Baton Rouge in our car like startled her out of hiding. Or maybe I want to believe it's Solomon. I think it was Solomon. I feel like maybe. Maybe.

Or, you know, word got around or, you know, maybe the police just finally caught like a lucky break with that bolo they put out for her. I mean, you know, Richard came forward after that went out. So maybe like it just took more time for Joyce. I don't know. Either way, NOPD has spoken with Joyce. And according to what Ryan Oakwin told Caitlin last month, Joyce refuses to cooperate with law enforcement. Like the end. Thanks, but no thanks. Don't want to talk.

In the follow-up interview I did with Chris and Caitlin a few weeks ago, Caitlin talked to me about how much Joyce's decision to not help genuinely hurts everyone in Bruce's family. How can you just say you have a murder victim's phone and you give two different stories, but you're just going to be able to say, I don't want to talk? I think there just needs to be a lot more pressure put on them for sure. Like, I don't know, it's just infuriating, really. Yeah.

And I think you mentioned this in an episode, but like talking to these people isn't the only option. Isn't there another way to learn more about what was going on with Bruce's cell phone, even if NOPD doesn't have the actual device or know for sure how Joyce ended up with it? Or again, nobody wants to talk to them. Well, yeah. And like, that's why I'm glad we're talking about this, because a lot of listeners had questions about Bruce's phone and being able to track it and whatnot. Yeah.

And here's the undisputed fact. We know that the phone vanished from the crime scene after the murder. And Bruce's number was still operational when Joyce was using it to text and call Ann two months later in late June of 2012. Because Ann recognized the number when she saw it pop up on her phone. So, like, what I want to know is, what was the phone's activity and data use in May and June of 2012?

I was able to review Bruce's phone bill from February to April, but not after April. I mean, someone using it to make calls or send texts in late April or throughout May and June, like, was it pinging in Baton Rouge or New Orleans or Covington? The Verizon statements should be able to shed more light on all of those questions, but the billing statements go to the owner of the phone. Like, Caitlyn was just lucky to get what she got.

So Bruce's employer has all of the information from Verizon. Well, and a quick question. I don't remember if we've gone over this, but do they have other people's phone records? I mean, obviously Bruce's are important, but then once you see who he's talking to, like this brings me back to Glenn Angus. Like, could they not get a subpoena for his records? Like...

sure, we already know he's talking to Bruce. That's not what we need to figure out. But like, who else was he in contact with? Can they get, right? Yeah. Am I losing it? No. And I think that's a, that's another part of the piece of getting those individuals. It's like, okay, yeah, if they sat down for an interview, great. But there's like,

ways of going about getting what you need that are completely legit. And, you know, with the right strategy and well-written warrants, like, NOPD could get the phone bills from Verizon for whoever, again, whether it's the victim or anyone else. And they could learn specifically about Bruce's phone, like its location, you know, where

what its use was in the timeframe they believe Joyce had it, like all of those things. And to me, this feels like something a judge should reasonably be able to sign off on at this point. I mean, this isn't even like a stretch. Agreed. Agreed.

The next topic a lot of listeners had questions about was the hardhat drive warehouse fire. You know, the one from 2014. Oh, I know the one. It was at Bruce's employer with the filing cabinets and the hay and the gas cans. Delia, I can't with this fire. Like, from the second you first, like, sent me some of the pictures, like, I remember, I mean, I remember you freaking out, like, looking at them. You were like, look at the hay! Look at the hay! I couldn't, I could not handle it. Like, I am so glad I got those pictures because, you know,

You know, honestly, if you're listening and you haven't gone to the CounterClock website and seen these images for yourself, run, don't walk to view the blog post for episode 12. Because I have a bit of an update on this for you.

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The warehouse fire is something that will always bother me. The scene pictures live rent-free in my brain, and they play on replay. Dale Risen, the fire consultant I interviewed, is fully convinced something fishy was going on, and arson is the cause. But I wanted to go through something that bolsters Dale's theory a little bit more. It actually came in from a listener who's really into, like, aerial and geospatial imaging and, like, all that stuff.

This is like the beauty of podcasting. The people who are out there listening, you find these like experts in things you didn't even know you needed. And I love it. I know. Shout out to Ryan. He tinkers around a lot with Google Earth images from different years. And he sent me a bird's eye view picture of the hard hat drive warehouse. And that picture was taken on October 31st, 2014. So like two weeks before the fire. And it's so interesting. Ashley, I need you to actually look at this. Wow.

What do you see on the ground along the side of the building that the dog houses were reported to also be on? Just tons of concrete. I mean, this thing is literally one giant big concrete slab that butts up to the warehouse. Exactly. Now, before I saw this image, it was hard for me to tell just from reading the written reports from the investigating agencies how much concrete there was on this property back in 2014.

But what stands out to me the most is the amount of concrete between where the dog houses were and the warehouse's exterior wall. Like, looking at this picture, there is no doubt in my mind that when those dog houses spontaneously caught on fire, the flames that were burning inside of them would have had to travel across the concrete to make it to the warehouse. There's no way. And, like, make that side hot and spark a fire there. Yeah.

The dog houses are not touching this building. Right. So Dale said basically that's impossible, right? Like unless there was accelerant poured between those two spots. I mean, it's so clear you like, again, I'm not an expert and I looking at this picture, I'm like that there's no way a dog house like blows up or whatever. And then all of a sudden this giant warehouse. No, absolutely not. Yes. So Dale, to answer your question. Yes. Dale said that's impossible.

Initially, I didn't use that portion of his interview in the show because I wasn't sure what the property looked like in 2014. And I didn't want to just make assumptions about how things were oriented on this property. But now that I can see it with my own eyes, the conversation you're about to hear between Dale and I feels really significant.

Cement will not burn unless you add an ignitable liquid to it. And when you add an ignitable liquid in a line, we call it a fire trailer. So in your opinion, you find it difficult to believe that a external small structure that catches on fire could then have a path to the larger structure unless there was something connecting those two that was incendiary. But in this case, based on your observation of the property, the cement

sort of makes that impossible unless there's an added element. Right. You know, cement is not flammable. Cement is barely combustible. So the way that you need to burn cement is you have to add an ignitable liquid to it. So that ignitable liquid is either flammable or it is combustible. And the only way that you're really going to produce enough heat for...

Anything to move on concrete is going to have to be a flammable liquid like gasoline, acetone, you know, alcohol. And of course, what's the most available fuel to an arsonist? Gasoline. I mean, he's got a point, but something I'm thinking about is

I mean, say hypothetically, this was arson. If gasoline was poured in a trail from the dog houses to the warehouse, and at some point, probably all over the hay and the filing cabinets inside, whoever poured that didn't have to do that at the same time as the fire, right? Right. I mean, if someone doused all that stuff...

They totally could have done that hours before the fire. They could have done it in the evening after the shop closed and all the employees went home for the day. Yes. Which is like keeps I keep coming back to this video that the ATF reviewed. Surely we would have seen something. So like it's wide open between the warehouse and the doghouse. Like, did they not see anything? Did they did they review? I guess my question is, did they review all of the footage from like yesterday?

even the days leading up to the fire? Or was there someone acting suspicious? Was there anything weird? When do they bring this freaking hay in? Or do we just have like this little window that they looked at? That's the question that I can't answer because the ATF reports don't talk about that. The reports just say the DVR footage from around the time of the fire was examined.

I have no idea if investigators reviewed the footage from, like, say, earlier in the day or that evening for any signs of suspicious activity. But something else interesting, which, Ashley, I feel like I already know how you're going to react to this.

But after the podcast came out, a source told me they listened to this episode about the warehouse fire and they remembered something super odd. They told me that a few days before this fire in November 2014, a group of men they knew well were asked to move several luxury cars off of the Hard Hat Road property and drive them to a dealership in northern Louisiana.

And this listener felt like, in hindsight, those men being asked to move a bunch of expensive cars right before a spontaneous random fire burned the whole place to the ground, like, seemed kind of weird. Like, maybe a little too weird. Weird isn't the word. Like, Delia, when you take into account everything else we know about this case, like,

Like, this is where, again, we come into difference. I'm like ready to like jump on. Like, this is straight up suspicious. I know. And I knew you were going to say that. And I agree. This information about the cars being moved is something that investigators would have likely side-eyed back in 2014 if they had known about it or done a more thorough investigation into, you know, what was on that property before and after and tenants and all that kind of stuff. But they didn't.

which is why we are where we are. The last thing that I saw several people submit questions about was the potential relevance of Michelle Veras-Mendez's murder in 2016 at the Mark 7 Apartments to Bruce's case. Yeah, I think at first it just feels like a coincidence, right? Like Michelle gets murdered in the same parking lot as Bruce just four years later. But I have a feeling that's

It's not it? Like you got more? I do. I do. But before I go into it, I do want to preface this with in no way do I think NOPD is considering these cases linked or anything. And I honestly don't even think Ryan Oakland or the Cold Case Bureau knew the similarities between the crimes before this podcast came out. Like, I think they probably were just like, oh, same place, New Orleans East, you know, dangerous area. That probably, you know, was the extent of it.

Because I think when Michelle's case ended with Breonna Brown's trial and Breonna's eventual murder, Michelle's case just never came up again. It was considered closed and that was it. However, a very credible source who used to work for NOPD reached out to me last month after listening and told me something very interesting. Okay. This source wanted to remain anonymous for obvious reasons, but...

They used to work in an undercover unit for NOPD that no longer exists. And this unit was the group of officers who conducted that search warrant on Breonna Brown's apartment in the French Quarter after Michelle's murder. This is where they found like a firearm and ammunition and other stuff that helped investigators connect Breonna to Michelle's death.

Well, according to my source, like right after that search of Brianna's apartment happened, the undercover NOPD unit identified and picked up Brianna's accomplice, the guy who's only ever been referred to by the names Lil Mike or Mike White. Shut up. Wait, when did this happen? I know. It gets better and like also much worse. So the undercover folks identified

find Mike and they get him in an interrogation room for questioning and they confirmed his ID based on that surveillance video taken from the convenience store camera next to the Mark 7 apartments. You know, it's like a little market that's there near Papania Drive. So they get that footage, they confirm, okay, this is the guy in the footage, this is the guy in our interrogation room. So they're like, great, let's call the lead homicide detective working Michelle's case because, you know, we possibly have the other suspect here. But...

When they call the detective, she's like, OK, I can't come down right now and talk to Mike. So just like hold him and we'll be down soon. And they never come down. I'm sorry, what? I know it is absolutely bonkers. They just do not come and talk to this guy.

So my source told me that while the undercover officers were waiting for homicide to come down, Lil Mike's real name and information was taken down on a field interview card at a police station. And he was waiting to be spoken with. But the homicide detectives just don't show up. And the undercover officers are like, well, what do we do? And like they just had to let him go.

I am so confused because, I mean, this is someone they said they were looking for who's implicated in a homicide. Again, we're talking Bruce's case aside, why wouldn't they want...

to go talk to this guy, take him off the streets. Like, I don't understand how this happened. I have no idea, like, what if there's miscommunication, if there's just poor police work. Like, again, I don't have, like, the inside baseball knowledge. But my source told me if I wanted to find out Lil Mike's real name, all I needed to do was request the field interview card from their specific unit from back in 2016, which I did. And I'm still waiting on New Orleans Police Department to give that to me.

But the whole point is, apparently all along, Lil Mike's name has been known, or at least knowable to the authorities. My source thought it would be important for my purposes to cross-reference his name with anyone in Bruce's life, as well as any other homicide victims since 2016. ♪

Wait, you're saying, like, check other homicide victims, like, in case Little Mike or whatever his real name is has also been murdered? Yeah, yeah. So I think my source is thinking, again, they're a former cop. If Little Mike was involved in both crimes, for example, say, like, a hitman for hire or something, maybe he got killed later too.

too. I don't know. I still have like some reporting to do on this, but like, wouldn't that be wild, right? Like if I do learn his real name and then I see like, oh, he is a murder victim too. Like, I just think that that was kind of their whole point and everything. But, you know, it's truly astonishing that Lil Mike was totally available to question or at least attempt to question, but NOPD just dropped the ball.

Yeah. Again, you're being really kind in saying that they dropped the ball and not. I mean, right. Like, I guess I don't know how suspicious to be until we figure out who little Mike is and where he is, if he's still around. But maybe there's a reason they didn't.

want to talk to him or have anything official on the record of them talking to him. It makes you wonder. Yeah, I don't understand it because he's clearly the second shooter or at least a suspect in Michelle's death. To this day, he hasn't been prosecuted. And it makes you wonder, too, like, did he have a hand in Breonna Brown's murder after she was released? Like, this is someone that you have to talk to. I guess I don't understand. Did you, have you had any contact since you got this from your source? Have you had any contact with NOPD agents?

about this? Like, have they made any comment about what happened here? I have. I've made, you know, calls and stuff, but I think that they're laying pretty low right now. Like, I think there's a little bit of that, you know, after all of this comes out, there's a little bit of that, like, okay, we need to press pause. But, you know, like my source said, like, there should be a bit of a paper trail. So I think, you know, just like continuing my reporting is probably going to be the best way to get some traction, I guess. Yeah.

And again, I'm not saying any of this Lil Mike stuff is connected to Bruce. Like, I don't, that's not what I'm saying. But we can't know until it's been investigated as much as possible. Right. Which is why I think involving another more powerful agency to sort through some of these details and these big questions is so necessary at this point, specifically in Bruce's case. Thank you for calling the New Orleans Division of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

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Visit iXL.com slash clock to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. So, Ashley, you probably guessed the FBI issued me a blanket statement, neither confirming nor denying that it's currently investigating Bruce's murder. I thought they were going to like cozy up and chat. I'm shocked. I know, right?

That would be amazing. Some sources of mine tell me, though, that the Bureau is quietly working on it, or at least agents know about it to the point where they've considered working it like full time.

Chris and Caitlin did not have a positive experience with the FBI when it helped NOPD like a few years ago. But times have changed and there are new leaders at the Bureau's New Orleans field office now who Caitlin says seem to be more open to starting over. Chris hopes that they do. He's hopeful that federal influence can push NOPD to start interviewing Bruce's former co-workers and colleagues, aka the folks who initial investigators never pinned down.

A lot of those folks were scared to talk because they were in the office and they wanted, they needed to get them. He said they needed to get them outside the office area and talk to them. They made me more comfortable. Well, they never went and did that. He told us they were going to go do that stuff. And then there was always something in the way. We can't really do much about that stuff that happened in the past, but what are we going to do from today going forward? Are we going to be able to,

start setting up and talking to these people again and things like that. And I'm not saying you have to go talk to the central figures because they're probably not going to talk, but it's been 11 years, you know, it's like, we're not being, it's not unrealistic. We're not being out of control to ask them to take these steps. Maybe with the federal authorities being involved, they could dig a little bit, go dig a little bit deeper and harder into it and can get further because they want to solve it.

Kaitlin feels the same way. After so many years of feeling let down by law enforcement, she's determined to keep the momentum going to find justice for her dad.

Everyone is texting me like, oh my God, y'all have been so persistent. I couldn't have never done this. Y'all have just never stopped. And I said, well, I'm not stopping until I am satisfied that every single lead I think has been played out. And I said, until that day happens, until we actually hit a wall, then I will...

slow down and take a step back. But until then, I'm going to keep pushing them to keep going. And that's what I think everybody should do in this situation, whether it's like, and you just know you have to investigate yourself. Do not believe that the police are actually doing their job.

A couple of listeners asked if during the last year and a half, if I or Bruce's kids have felt that our lives were in danger. And, you know, I can speak for myself. Yes and no. There were times, Ashley, while I was reporting in Covington and like the greater New Orleans area that I did feel scared.

I know. I remember talking to you sometimes and being like, you know, if you need security, like, I'll send security. Like, do you need someone with you more than just, like, your husband and baby Solomon? Maybe not baby Solomon. Yeah. And, you know, that was amazing. But honestly, like, it never got to the point where I felt super exposed. I will say, though, since season five came out, I have been more on edge. I'm always a little jumpy after a season drops, but especially this time around. Yeah.

I mean, let's just face it, there's a lot of sketchy stuff and people in this story. It's natural to feel like your life could be at risk or my family's. But to me, deep down, like, I feel like I have to keep going. People need to know about this story and the truth needs to come out.

somebody murdered Bruce and whether it was a setup or a random thing somebody knows the answers that can bring his family peace Chris and Caitlin feel the same way I mean Caitlin she still lives in Covington she shared with me that some of her friends and acquaintances have received threats for sharing the podcast or talking about it online yes oh that's so scary I know but to me like

This is why we have to keep going, right? Like, if this show's platform is good for one thing, it's getting information out that people don't want out. It also gives a voice to people who've had their suppressed or not believed. You know, Audio Talk, Counter Clock basically gave a lot of legitimacy to what Kayla and I have been saying for these past 10 years, right? Because

you know you guys have a lot of cases to choose from you guys have a lot you think you only have you and your team your small team working this stuff right and so you don't have unlimited resources unlimited time unlimited things just to do every single case you get you have to pick and choose ones that are worth your time work your effort with the resources and then you dig into it like you do you know very deeply and do a great job and so it just gives us some legitimacy to this

I think the biggest thing was just cohesively telling the story that we wanted to tell. And it's so complicated, but we wanted to

Like I've been trying to, I guess I've been trying to tell people around town, like what actually happened for so long, but until they had the whole story and like, y'all are just able to tell it in like the most perfect way. The support around town has been absolutely incredible. Like I'm seeing people I haven't seen since childhood, you know, saying they have our back and they'll support us at whatever we need. I don't know. It was just, it's, it's been freeing in a way.

I like how she put that, that it's freeing. Because, I mean, it's not justice or closure, but that's at least encouraging to hear. It is. I also think it's, like, the best way to wrap up this Q&A episode. You know, when we have to, like, wrap these things up, I feel like this is one way to do that. So I want to thank you all again for listening to Season 5 of CounterClock. And like I said, I'm still actively reporting the parts of this story that I can. So there may be some updates to come. Stay tuned.

And what I will just add is parts of this story along with parts of other stories. So there's been things happening. You said at the top of this episode that, you know, people find, you know, they come for the Bruce Kutcher case maybe and then they find these like past four seasons. Yeah.

And you still get tips. I mean, season one, season two, season three, stuff's developing in season three. So my advice to people, again, if you've been following any of these cases, make sure you hit the follow button wherever you're listening, because there's actually potentially some bonus stuff coming out about

past seasons based on your continued reporting because just because you move on to another season like you're never truly done I know and I think I was just having a conversation with you Ashley about some Denise Johnson stuff that I want to follow up on and I think that's going to be huge for that case but also for listeners who have like been with us since day one

In the meantime, I am deep into my investigation for season six, which is turning out to be a massive undertaking. Ashley, you know this. Every time I call you about it, I'm like, more and more and more. So be sure to follow the show on social media, and I'll be back with a future season.

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