Episode 8: Overlap
38:33 Share

The National Sales Event is on at your Toyota dealer, making now the perfect time to get a great deal on a dependable new car like a legendary Camry. Built for performance and available with all-wheel drive, you can count on your new Camry to get anywhere you need to go. Or check out an affordable and reliable Corolla with a trim for every lifestyle. From the hip sedan to the sporty hatchback, there's a Corolla built just for you. Check out more National Sales Event deals when you visit buyatoyota.com.

Toyota, let's go places. This episode is brought to you by Progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average, plus auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Quote now at Progressive.com to see if you could save. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates.

National average 12-month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary, discounts not available in all states and situations.

Walmart Plus members save on meeting up with friends. Save on having them over for dinner with free delivery with no hidden fees or markups. That's groceries plus napkins plus that vegetable chopper to make things a bit easier. Plus, members save on gas to go meet them in their neck of the woods. Plus, when you're ready for the ultimate sign of friendship, start a show together with your included Paramount Plus subscription. Walmart Plus members save on this plus so much more.

Start a 30-day free trial at WalmartPlus.com. Paramount Plus is central plan only. Separate registration required. See Walmart Plus terms and conditions. Someone fatally stabbed Stacey Stanton inside her apartment on February 3rd. This was violent. It was brutal.

On February 3, 1990, someone brutally murdered 28-year-old Stacey Stanton inside of her second-story apartment in North Carolina, then cleaned up and disappeared. Residents of Manteo have lived in fear. For 30 years, Stanton's killer has had one face and one name. North Carolina investigators and Manteo police believe that someone is Clifton Spencer.

But his prejudice. They absolutely had tunnel vision that it was the black man who killed the white woman. Keeping an innocent man convicted. They even know now some of them old skogies or them good old boys. They know this man didn't do that. And covering up more than one crime. I feel bad for that guy. I just really seriously don't think he did that. This is CounterClock, the investigation into the murder of Stacey Stanton.

I'm your host, Delia D'Ambra. To start off this episode, I want to be clear. I'm not accusing anyone of any crime. I'm simply going to lay out facts that, both standing alone and combined, reveal several ways Denise Johnson's life and the people who knew her overlapped with Stacey Stanton.

After years of research on both cases, I've connected dots within the testimony from people I've interviewed for both women's cases. I encourage you to listen to everything in this episode for yourself and then make up your own mind. And if you're new to CounterClock and you haven't listened to season one, I can't encourage you enough to go back and listen to all of Denise's story.

After almost a year of investigating Stacey's murder, I'd heard Denise Johnson's name brought up a few times. The Outer Banks is a pretty tight-knit community, and according to everyone I've spoken with, it was even smaller during the 1990s. So I've always had this lingering suspicion that maybe it was possible these women's lives crossed paths.

Almost every person I interviewed in season one was living on the Outer Banks when both Stacey and Denise were alive. So I thought one way I could see if there was any overlap was to show my sources in Denise's case a few photos of Mike, Patty, and people in their inner circle. A lot of the images were still frames from the 1990 archived news footage of the Manny Hill Police press conference after Stacey's murder.

These pictures are on our website if you want to take a look. Now using these photos, I went back to the people I interviewed for Counter Clock Season 1 who knew Denise Johnson or lived in Kill Devil Hills in the 1990s. I asked all of them if they recognized anyone in these photos.

I chose to use the old photos of Mike, Patty, and the others because there was no point in showing my sources from season one photos of how these individuals look now. It's been 30 years and they've aged. I wanted my sources from season one to see how these individuals looked in the 90s, and maybe that would help jog their memories.

The first person I talked with that I'd interviewed in season one was Teresa Rogers. Teresa was the night clerk working at the Amco gas station in Kill Devil Hills. That's where Denise Johnson was last seen before her death. Teresa remembers clearly that Denise was inside the store and made a purchase around 1.15 in the morning on July 13, 1997. There's also a receipt that Kill Devil Hills police say they have which proves that.

Teresa positively identified Mike Brandon's photo as someone who frequently came into the convenience store in 1997. She knew Mike's name was Mike as soon as she saw the picture. And just in case you think I was leading her, I want you to know I made sure not to tell Teresa who it was before sending the images to her.

and I sent it before episode one of this season ever aired, so Teresa would have had no way of knowing what case I was currently working on. To me, Teresa's answer confirmed that Mike did go to Kill Devil Hills often and for sure had been seen at the convenience store near Denise's house on several occasions in 97.

Teresa said, though, she couldn't remember Mike ever being with Denise on any particular visit. She said she didn't think they were friends or anything like that. What's also interesting is that Teresa Rogers recognized Patti Rowe's photo from 1990 as well, but wasn't sure of her name at first. When I then told Teresa Patti's name, Teresa said that helped her memory, and she then confirmed she believed the woman in the photo was Patti Rowe.

Teresa doesn't have any distinct memories of Patty coming into the store in 97, and she doesn't believe Patty was the woman following Denise around inside the store in the hours before Denise was killed. But one thing Teresa was very adamant about was that she swore that Denise's roommate, Karen Bittinger, came into the store on a regular basis with this guy, Mike, back in 1997.

Teresa remembers the two of them buying cigarettes and beer together several times and thought that they were definitely friends. With Teresa so sure that there was a connection between Mike and Karen, my next obvious stop was to interview Karen again.

When I texted Karen the exact same pictures I showed Teresa Rogers, Karen immediately called me, and she said that she didn't recognize Mike as someone she knew well, but just said that he looked familiar. She couldn't identify Patty's photo and said she didn't think Patty or Mike ever hung out with Denise. Moving on, the next person I checked in with was Jeff Magruder, one of Denise's former long-term boyfriends.

He's someone who was very involved in Denise's life even after they'd broken up in the spring of 1997. Jeff said he and Denise parted ways for good not long before her murder, but their relationship was amicable and they remained good friends. He says several times Denise said she wanted to get back together with him, but Jeff didn't want to.

When I spoke with Jeff earlier this year, we discussed the photos I'd sent him of Mike, Patty, and some of the people associated with them. He wasn't sure he knew any of them and couldn't put any names with their faces for sure. When I told him the names of the people in the pictures, Jeff still didn't know if he recognized them. But what he did say made me take pause.

Jeff said that in early summer of 1997, when Denise was looking for a roommate and she put that ad in the newspaper, she vetted a few other people before eventually agreeing to let Karen Biddinger live with her. Jeff says one of the people that contacted Denise before she chose Karen was a man named Mike. Jeff says he never knew this Mike guy's last name, but he knew he was supposed to be from the Outer Banks area.

Even more interesting is that Jeff said this Mike guy wanted the room for rent so bad because he'd recently taken a liking to Denise, a strong liking. Jeff said that Denise mentioned that this Mike was a little too interested in renting the room from her, and he'd been telling people in town that he wanted to be with Denise. So Jeff advised Denise to tell this Mike guy no.

Jeff couldn't positively identify the photo of Mike Brandon as being the Mike that was interested in renting Denise's room, because like he said, he didn't even know his last name, and he'd never met him. The only other thing Jeff could tell me was that he remembered back in 1997 that the Mike guy was known to use cocaine and other drugs, and he worked on and off selling crabs to the restaurant that Karen Bittinger worked at.

Now, that detail on its own isn't that significant. When you compare it with what Teresa Rogers, the gas station clerk, said, there's a connection. Teresa said that the Mike who she positively identified as Mike Brandon was friends with Karen. So it's possible to think that maybe the Mike who Jeff says sold crabs to the restaurant Karen worked at could in fact be Mike Brandon.

But I'll admit, that is just me speculating. However, my suspicions only grew stronger when I spoke with members of the Johnson family. When I called Donnie Johnson, one of Denise's older sisters who most of you know well from season one, she revealed something to me that told me I was on the right track.

Do you want to set your child up for success? IXL Learning is an online learning program for kids covering math, language arts, science, and social studies. IXL is designed to help them really understand and master topics in a fun way. Powered by advanced algorithms, IXL gives the right help to each kid no matter the age or personality. IXL is used in 95 of the top 100 school districts in the US.

There's one site for all the kids in your home, pre-K to 12th grade. Kids can even access IXL on the go through the app or on your phone or tablet. No more trying to figure out how to explain math equations or grammar rules yourself. IXL has built-in explanation videos.

And look, my son is only two and a half right now, but I can already tell by the time he is in school, he is going to appreciate having someone explain why something is the way it is. He doesn't like just to be told. So those explanation videos are going to be super helpful. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now. And CounterClock listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.com slash clock.

Visit iXL.com slash clock to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price.

This message is sponsored by Greenlight. A new school year is starting soon, and if you're a parent, you want to make this school year an opportunity for your kids to learn important life skills and continue building independence. For that, there's Greenlight. Greenlight is a debit card and money app for families where kids learn how to save, invest, and spend wisely, and parents can keep an eye on kids' new money habits.

There's even Greenlight's Infinity Plan, which includes the same access to financial literacy education that makes Greenlight a valuable resource for millions of parents and kids. Plus, built-in safety to give you peace of mind. My son is only two and a half, but already he knows what a card is and what it does. He actually took it up to a vending machine the other day, swiped it, and, well, let's just say he's going to be a spender when he's older.

And so Greenlight is the perfect thing for him. There's even a chores feature that lets you reward your kids for honoring their responsibilities around the house. So what are you waiting for? Sign up for Greenlight today and get your first month free when you go to greenlight.com slash counterclock. That's greenlight.com slash counterclock to try Greenlight for free. greenlight.com slash counterclock.

Donnie Johnson is one of Denise Johnson's older sisters and someone who was heavily involved in both law enforcement's investigation and my own reinvestigation into Denise's unsolved murder. Earlier this year, we sat down at her kitchen table and I showed her the photos of Mike and Patty. I didn't tell her the names of the people in the photos, and I didn't preface our interview with any information about a potential overlap with Stacey and Denise's cases.

I didn't want to influence her at all. But Donnie recognized Mike's photo right away, and she said she believed that she and Denise had an interaction with him prior to Denise's death. When I was at her house one evening, we were just sitting outside talking. This guy pulls up, and it looked, that's, you know, what I recalled, this guy looked familiar. And he had been wanting to go out with Denise, and Denise wasn't sure about it.

And he kept asking her out, you know, and I kind of just stood behind Denise because he was kind of kept asking her, you know, I really want to go out. Come on, say you will. Come on, come on. And he's like, no, no, I'd rather be friends. And, you know, he just seemed to not want to take the no for about five minutes. And finally, I kind of just said, you know, we're visiting. So you need to go because, you know, we're just hanging out. So he left. But that's who that looked like to me. And I

I almost want to say, well, I'm pretty sure she said his name was Mike. It was at this point talking to Donnie that I knew I could really be on to something. Donnie says her and Denise's interaction with the guy named Mike happened in 1995, two years before Denise's murder. Donnie stared at the photo for several minutes and continued to try and remember as much as she could about that conversation.

Well, his hair wasn't that bushy when I saw, but just his facial features. He looks like that guy that, you know, drove up in the car. And I can't be sure because it was night and, you know, it was dark. But I do recall her saying it was this guy named Mike who wants to date me. And I just said, well, Denise, you know, you don't have to date everybody that asks you out. You don't have to go out with them if you don't want to.

Donnie's fairly clear identification of Mike was seriously amazing, but to me, it wasn't enough. I mean, it's been 30 years. It was dusk or maybe even getting dark when she and Denise could have had this interaction with the Mike guy. I really just wanted more proof. I wanted some sort of record that tied Mike Brandon and Patty Rowe to anywhere near Norfolk Street and Kill Devil Hills. So I went searching.

And that's when I found it. In the 1990s, Patty's mother lived in Nags Head, a town about 10 or 15 minutes from Denise's house. Now, that's close, but not close enough to make any kind of real connection. Like I said, the Outer Banks is kind of small. So I kept looking, and that's when I discovered an undeniable and almost unbelievable connection.

According to property and rental records, in 1997, Patty's younger brother, Ray Griggs, lived at 1200 West Durham Street in Kill Devil Hills. That home is on the same street you take to get to Denise's house on Norfolk Street. Ray's former address is literally a two-minute walk from Denise's front door.

There's a map of how close these addresses are on our website. You have to go and look for yourself. I couldn't help but wonder if it was possible that Mike and Patty, in some weird version of events, could have been in Kill Devil Hills on July 13, 1997, at, say, Ray's house. Is it possible that Mike and Patty could have crashed at Ray's several times in 1997, either together or separate?

It's documented in police reports that they had a history of crashing at Patty's mother's home in Nags Head, which wasn't that far away. And according to his arrest records, Mike was a habitual cocaine and alcohol user throughout the 90s. Mike's former attorney was quoted in the Coastland Times newspaper in 1994 as saying that Mike, quote, had a severe drug dependency, end quote.

And a former prosecutor who was quoted in that same article said Mike was known to be, quote, "high on cocaine and alcohol" and had been homeless for a time, end quote.

In addition to all of that information, according to Susan Corrington and Joni Newman, women who were friends with Mike and Patty, they said by the time 1997 rolled around, Mike had been bouncing around from place to place because he and Patty's marriage was falling apart. According to divorce records for the couple, they'd been having serious domestic issues leading up to the summer of '97.

The court filing for their divorce states they officially separated on October 1, 1997, after months of Mike not being a faithful husband, failing to provide for their son, abusing Patty, and being on drugs. Those months of his alleged bad behavior included spring and summer of 1997.

When I looked up Mike's Department of Corrections record, I realized he was incarcerated a lot during the 1990s. But there were two small windows of time he wasn't behind bars. One was a short period of time in 1995. And the other was a period of time he was out on supervised probation in July of 1997.

According to the Department of Corrections, Mike was paroled in March of 1997 and was on that probation the entire summer as part of a drug rehabilitation program. That program was something he'd agreed to in his 1994 plea deal after committing the string of burglaries in Maneo, including the two courthouse break-ins that we discussed in Episode 7.

Because the courts had decided to suspend Mike's sentence for those crimes as part of his plea, he wasn't actually scheduled to go to prison for those offenses until December of 1998. So, it's completely possible that Mike Brandon was roaming free on the Outer Banks and able to interact with Denise and Donnie in 1995, as well as be in Kill Devil Hills on July 13, 1997.

On top of that, there's also a tidbit of information that Doresa Johnson, one of Denise's other sisters, remembers. Doresa said in her interview with me back in 2019 that she remembered Denise telling her in November of 1996 that Denise thought someone had been on her roof or was watching her.

Fall of 1996 was also the same time Denise had filed that police report with Kill Devil Hill's police department, where she formally complained that someone was harassing her over the phone and leaving love notes on her car. I couldn't help but think about Mike's criminal history and his M.O. in almost all of his break-ins.

His consistent approach to getting into buildings was that he often went in or attempted to gain entry through ceilings and windows. Is it possible he was the person Denise was complaining about on her roof? Was he lovesick for her and leaving phone messages and notes? I don't know. I can't prove any of those things, but I have serious reasons to wonder.

After looking over Mike's life in 1997 extensively, I also wanted to try and pinpoint Patty's whereabouts in July 1997, or at least see if anyone knew if she was in Kill Devil Hills often. So I showed my archive photos to Lori Sellers, one of Denise's good friends who hung out in the Avalon Pier Kill Devil Hills crowd in the 90s.

Without me telling her any names, Lori immediately recognized Patty as well as Ray Griggs. She went to high school with both of them. She says that Patty was an extremely jealous woman and would pick a fight at a bar with just about anyone. Lori says Patty was no stranger to the Kill Devil Hills crowd, but on a consistent basis, she didn't really see her out all that often in 1997.

Ray, on the other hand, Lori did see frequently. According to his arrest records, Ray was arrested in Kill Devil Hills several times in the 90s for drunk driving, and he also had a reputation for burglaries and drug use. I attempted several times to contact Ray for this podcast, and he hasn't returned my messages.

Me mentioning his criminal history is not me saying or suggesting that he has anything to do with Denise or Stacey's murders. And as far as I can tell, Ray was cooperative when investigators interviewed him in 1990 for Stacey's case. There's nothing I've read about him or in his criminal history that points to him ever being considered a suspect in either murder. However, according to SBI records, he was never given a polygraph.

In my investigative research, it's really only Ray's former address on West Durham Street that puts him, and potentially his sister Patty, geographically close to Denise Johnson. Now, that could just be a total coincidence. But for me, and probably some of you, at this point in the episode, it's hard to write it off as just coincidence.

If everything I've reported up until this point still isn't enough for you to be convinced there is overlap between Mike, Patty, Denise, and Stacey, you're just like me. I'm a triple, quadruple source type person. I want absolute certainty. But sometimes I can't get that. Especially when we're talking about cases that are 30 and 23 years old.

At least that's what I thought. Until one day earlier this year, I opened my inbox to read a tip that someone had sent in. This tip was about Denise Johnson's case. And at the time this came in, no episodes of season two had aired, and the tip writer was completely unaware that I was also investigating Stacey Stanton's murder.

The information I read in the message made me strongly suspect that both women's murders might be connected. I've learned three languages in my life, English, Spanish, and French. And I can tell you the most difficult part for me at times was when I was doing the classroom work. And even though I was having conversations with people in those languages, it wasn't the same as being immersed in that language. But with Rosetta Stone, I get the best of both worlds.

Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program, and it's available on desktop or can be used on an app on your phone or tablet. The big thing for me when it comes to learning a language or sprucing up on one I already know is to have that immersive experience, like I said, and really naturally try and pick up the language, first with words, then phrases, and then sentences. And something that's been really helpful with that is Rosetta Stone's True Accent feature. You get feedback on how well you're pronouncing words.

It's like having a personal trainer for your accent. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started. For a very limited time, CounterClock listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosettastone.com slash counterclock.

That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash counterclock today. All right, so for a long time, I was completely unaware of like what was good wine and what was bad wine. In fact, I don't know.

I usually just didn't even buy it because I was worried I was gonna take too much of a risk. And when I did, I usually let myself down. But now that's completely changed thanks to First Leaf. It's a wine club that's not your average wine club. It's better.

With each shipment, you get a personalized selection of wines from all over the world, handpicked just for you. First Leaf has this great questionnaire on their website that helped me a lot because it asked me questions like what kinds of foods do I like? Sweet or salty or nutty or oaky?

And all of those things created results that had wines paired perfectly for me. You can tailor your membership to your needs, and you can choose between six or 12 bottles, decide how many reds or whites you want, and select a shipping window that works for your schedule. So get wines to sip and share all summer long with First Leaf. Go to tryfirstleaf.com slash counterclock to sign up, and you'll get your first six hand-picked bottles for just $44.95. That's

Three weeks after Patty Rowe separated from Mike Brandon in late October of 1997, Mike was arrested for drunk driving. That immediately triggered a remand on his supervised release, and he was locked up again in the Dare County Jail.

All of the leniency the courts had given him for most of the 90s, allowing him to receive suspended sentences and avoiding prison time, was gone. From the end of 1997, pretty much until the year 2001, Mike would spend years behind bars for past and current offenses. But here's where things get really weird.

While Mike was sitting in jail in late October of 1997, after officially separating from Patty and getting arrested for DWI, he began talking with a former detention center staff member. This individual and I exchanged messages at the beginning of 2020, just a few weeks after season one began airing. At the time, this tipster knew that I was investigating Denise Johnson's murder,

but only Denise Johnson's murder. No one knew I was also looking into Stacey's case. This tipster wrote and suggested that I look into a man named Mike Brandon regarding Denise's death. I agreed to keep this source's identity anonymous in exchange for them telling me their full story.

In their message, they wrote me saying that when they were working at the Dare County Jail in the fall of 1997, Mike Brandon told them that he had been hanging out with Denise Johnson that summer, and his wife Patty had caught him cheating. According to this jail staff member, Mike told them that a few years earlier, in 1990, he was also involved in Stacey Stanton's murder.

He confessed that he'd been messing around with Stacey at the time, and Patty, who was his girlfriend, had caught him and jumped on Stacey and attacked her. Mike told this jailer that he had to finish Stacey off and clean up the crime scene. This jailer said that Mike went on to talk about Denise, and his direct quote to them was this: "She caught me again, and everything ended up ugly. I can't get Denise out of my head.

My source said that they knew Mike Brandon from growing up in the Outer Banks, and even though he was a career criminal and his nickname was "penitentiary," it wasn't like Mike to normally lie about something as serious as this.

My source said Mike talking about two brutal murders only a few years apart in the same geographic area didn't sound made up. The tipster said that after they heard Mike's confession about having knowledge of Denise's murder and his part in Stacey's murder, they immediately told their supervisor at the jail. But their supervisor didn't take them seriously and responded by reminding them that inmates lie.

According to my source, nothing else was done to investigate what Mike said. Now, to play devil's advocate here, I can understand maybe why that was the case, to a certain extent. To many members of law enforcement on the Outer Banks, Mike was a known convict whose credibility was dicey.

To them, the question probably was, why would Mike just volunteer outlandish information like this to the jailer? They probably thought it was just penitentiary lying for the thrill of it. And that's when I stopped, and I really thought hard about it. Why? Why would Mike say what he allegedly did? What did he have to gain by confessing to helping take part in two murders? It's so out of the blue, and it did him no good to say it.

Just think about it. In October 1997, Mike was sitting in jail with a DWI charge and a guaranteed easy sentence for pleading guilty to multiple burglaries. Why would he just up and provide information that he and allegedly Patty were guilty of murdering two women? Here's Donnie Johnson's reaction when I told her about this tipster's message. For somebody to say that,

while sitting in jail knowing they're going to stay in jail for a while. It just seems like an odd statement for him to make, if it is true. It seems odd and, you know, you'd have to know what his demeanor was at the time, but it wouldn't benefit him in any way to say that. It wouldn't get him out of jail, you know. Why even bring that up if you don't know something about it? It's a strange coincidence for a guy who's sitting in jail to

to just bring up Denise, you know, I think it's terrible what happened to her. My wife did it. You know, I mean, that's strange. I didn't take it at face value. I still don't 100%. But for that person to have messaged me thinking I was only working on your sister's case. It raises, wait a minute.

You know, why didn't this person... Well, I wonder why the person didn't come forward a long time ago with this. And if he did, why wasn't the guy ever interviewed? The guy obviously had a lot of troubles. And I would think you would want to look into him just to eliminate him. Because, you know, if it is the guy I saw, and if, you know, you're having cooperating people that say he might have known Denise...

Why not look at him? And, you know, and if you have DNA, why not test DNA against, you know, whoever you can that could be a suspect?

If you have DNA and you have his DNA somewhere, you know, obviously it's his DNA somewhere if he's been incarcerated so long. See if it matches. I really want to know if they looked at Mike Brandon... I do too. ...as a suspect in your sister's case because there is evidence to prove that he was in the Outer Banks at that time. There's people saying that they believed he could have been associated with your sister...

He had a volatile wife. Yes. And that's something that we've always thought was present in your sister's murder was some sort of rage between two or more people that killed Denise. And, you know, you don't want to speculate, but it's hard to ignore, especially because Stacey Stanton was involved.

killed in a very similar manner. I mean, when you hear the injuries to her and the injuries to your sister, it's... Well, if I was, you know, I mean, in my mind, if I was in law enforcement, to me, that would just be something that you look at. Something you might, you know, because all of this time you don't have anything. Well, this is something maybe, just maybe.

If this former jailer's story even holds an ounce of truth, how, literally how, was this not investigated more? Maybe because Clifton was already in prison at this point. So, in law enforcement's mind, there wasn't a need to look for a connection between the two cases. Maybe by the end of 1997, they'd made up their minds that Stacy's killer couldn't have been Denise's killer.

I'll never know, at least not fully, because Kill Devil Hill's police department has never named an official suspect or person of interest in Denise's case or ever publicly ruled out Mike Brandon. The department also won't comment on what evidence they do or don't have as far as DNA goes.

And they won't participate in any more interviews with me on Denise's case. So, in the event that the detectives at KDHPD, and for that matter, agents with the SBI in 1997, didn't know about this jailer's alleged interaction with Mike, I took the liberty of informing them of this this year.

I wrote a long, detailed tip and submitted it to the Dare County Community Crime Line. Hopefully, someone checking that submission page has seen it and taken it seriously. If not, I think voicing it here openly on the podcast should help get the word out.

That all being said, that's it. Everything I've laid out for you in this episode is all of the information I've been able to gather, vet, and determine potentially links Mike, Patty, Denise Johnson, and Stacey Stanton. Maybe Mike is a red herring in Denise's case, a line of investigation that law enforcement chased down, but it led nowhere. But without comment from them, I don't know for sure.

Maybe Mike's loose overlap with Denise and her friends and the town of Kill Devil Hills is just a product of a small community where everyone is too close. Trust me, I know from experience that's true on the Outer Banks. I could speculate all day, but what I know for sure that is fact is this: Seven years before Denise, Stacey Stanton was murdered inside of her apartment with fatal stab wounds to her neck.

That murder weapon, as far as the police have said, has never been recovered. And the killer didn't attempt much of a cleanup to hide forensic evidence. In fact, Stacey's case has boatloads of potential forensic clues to identify the perpetrator. And after the murder, Mike Brandon made multiple attempts to break into an evidence locker, though those break-ins have never been linked by law enforcement to Stacey's murder.

Fast forward a few years to July 1997, and Denise Johnson was murdered inside of her home, also with fatal stab wounds to her neck. That murder weapon has never been recovered either, and whoever killed her used fire to knock her out and attempt to obliterate much of the physical evidence. Just think about this scenario for a second.

If the killer or killers in Stacey and Denise's crimes are one and the same, doesn't it seem like the way the suspect dealt with Denise's scene shows they evolved?

Maybe they knew the way that they'd murdered Stacey was sloppy and reckless. Maybe when they killed Denise, they wanted to be extra sure they wouldn't have to worry about evidence in storage somewhere linking them to the crime. I know, it sounds like a conspiracy theory, and I get it. But just think about it for a second. It kind of makes sense.

And remember, say you're the district attorney in 1997, and the evidence even hints to the fact that Denise Johnson's murder and Stacey Stanton's murder are connected. You automatically have to reevaluate the conviction and imprisonment of Clifton Spencer.

You have to completely re-examine how the district attorney's office handled Clifton's conviction in 1990, because there is no way he can be Denise's killer. He's in prison in 1997.

If there's one thing almost everyone I've interviewed for this podcast in both seasons has said to me, it's that every time someone who was curious about either of these cases poked around, they were always told to leave them alone or let it go.

As recently as last month, I've spoken with former assistant district attorneys for Dare County who say they passed along tips and information in the Denise Johnson case in recent years, and they have never received any kind of follow-up from law enforcement. So many people who have even sniffed around either of these cases for more information have been told to stop and not look into the details any further.

Now that just seems suspicious to me. I don't know. Maybe there's more to this overlap theory. Or maybe it's just that, a theory. But it's one I believe has far too much evidence to ignore. And I would honestly love to know what Eric, Denise's next-door neighbor back in 1997, and his girlfriend Teresa have to say about this theory. Would they be able to corroborate any of it? Did they know Mike Brandon or Patti Rowe?

But because they refused to talk to me regarding the investigation of Denise's murder, I will never know. I did ask Mark Wiseman, the young man from 1997 who lived with Eric up until two days before Denise's murder, the guy who was never interviewed by police. I asked him if he recognized either Patty Rowe or Mike Brandon's pictures, but he said he didn't.

I think, though, the theory I've laid out for you is just all the more reason for both Eric and Teresa to speak up about what they may know or remember from back then. Because what if, just what if they know something that could link both cases? And if that's the case, then they'd potentially be helping clear suspicion from their names. But I can't force people to talk. I can only ask that they participate in wanting to find the truth.

That's the hardest part about all of this, getting people to act against their own self-interest to figure out what the truth really is. In the event that doesn't happen, though, there's always hard evidence one can turn to, concrete, scientific proof that could hold the key to solving who killed these women.

It was a washcloth found down the street that had blood on it. How often are you going to find a washcloth with blood on it down the street from a crime scene where there's someone who's been bloodily murdered? We're taking a closer look at the forensic evidence. It got to the point where, how could we not be able to make this case? Next week on Counterclaw.

The show is getting close to the season finale, and trust me, you guys are not going to want to miss these next two episodes. So make sure you're subscribed on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

And I want to take this time to tell you that the friends and family of Clifton Spencer have created a GoFundMe page to help him raise money for his retirement and to buy his own semi truck. Like many of you have written in to me and you want to help Clifton, you can go to his GoFundMe and donate. You can find the link on our website, counterclockpodcast.com or on our social media pages.

And while you're at it, go ahead and do me a favor and follow CounterClock Podcast on social media. You'll stay updated on these cases and check out pictures and videos related to each case. CounterClock is an AudioChuck original show. Ashley Flowers is the executive producer. And all reporting and hosting is done by me, Delia D'Ambra.

Walmart Plus members save on meeting up with friends. Save on having them over for dinner with free delivery with no hidden fees or markups. That's groceries plus napkins plus that vegetable chopper to make things a bit easier. Plus, members save on gas to go meet them in their neck of the woods. Plus, when you're ready for the ultimate sign of friendship, start a show together with your included Paramount Plus subscription. Walmart Plus members save on this plus so much more.

Start a 30-day free trial at walmartplus.com. Paramount Plus is central plan only. Separate registration required. See Walmart Plus terms and conditions. Boldly searching for your next used vehicle? With CarMax, you don't have to settle on anything when it comes to your ride. Instead, steer clear of the ordinary and buy the car that's right for you. Because CarMax makes it easy to stop settling and find a car you'll love today. Start shopping now at CarMax.com. CarMax, the way car buying should be.