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Hey, CounterClock listeners. I'm your host, Delia D'Amber here, joined by the show's executive producer, Ashley Flowers. Hi, everyone. I am so excited that we're recording this episode today. Delia and I, but mostly Delia, are going to be trying to answer your burning questions about season one, the ongoing Denise Johnson investigation, and all of the lingering questions you have about season two and Stacey Stanton's case, which

Based on the number of emails you all sent in, you have a lot of questions. So I think we should just get started. But before we jump into the questions, Delia, you have something that you want to share with us? Something that maybe has come up within the investigation literally within the last month or so? Yeah. So before we dive right into questions and answers, I want to give you guys a quick mini episode of sorts. It's breaking down a lead that I've been investigating recently.

pretty much for the better half of 2020, and it's regarding Denise Johnson's case, which is something you guys have all been keeping tabs on for the last two years. So new information recently made its way to me, and I vetted it, and the explanation of what this lead is and how I chased it down, I'll admit kind of like

First off, that it is anecdotal to some degree. But based on everything I've gathered on both of these cases in both seasons, I felt like I had to write it up and let you guys know about it just because I think it's a really true testament to how much this podcast impacts people who have knowledge about Denise's case and it encourages them to come forward. So here we go. I could not believe it.

That is the start of a conversation I had with Donnie Johnson, Denise Johnson's older sister, in May of 2020. This was shortly after season one of Counter Clock ended, but well before season two of the show even began airing.

Donnie called me because she said she'd had a strange encounter with a woman in the rural town of North Carolina that she lives in. This woman told Donnie some startling information about Denise's murder that Donnie says she'd never heard before. Donnie told me that she'd seen a woman painting an old house in town that was getting renovated. So Donnie pulled over her car, curious to see who was doing the renovation, and she started chatting with the woman painting.

Even though they were strangers, they talked like old friends, typical North Carolinian fashion. After a few minutes, Donnie sort of formally introduced herself, and as soon as she did, the woman painting suddenly and unexpectedly started crying. Like, not just a few tears, ugly cry, waterfall tears. And Donnie couldn't figure out why. And I mean, I couldn't believe how this girl was just bawling. I mean, crying.

The woman painting had realized in that moment that Donnie Johnson was Denise Johnson's sister. Through her tears, the woman told Donnie that many years ago, around 2001 or 2002, she learned that the boyfriend of one of her former female co-workers confessed to murdering Denise.

Donnie was skeptical about this story, though, and naturally so. She's been fed a lot of BS by people over the years. But the woman's emotional response caused Donnie to take her slightly more seriously. So Donnie said thanks and passed her information along to me. At this point, Donnie trusts me to vet people who make claims like this.

A few months later, I was finally able to get a hold of the woman who'd spoken with Donnie, and she agreed to do an interview with me. Her name is Michelle Basinger. It had to have been at least 20 years ago that I worked with a girl named Sherry and her sister named Bobby, and we were working for Joe Boyd.

Sherry sat me down one day and was telling me that her boyfriend said that he was the one that did it, that he came home angry. He always beat on Sherry, so she was terrified to say anything to anybody. But she said that he'd come home saying, you know, that he is the one that killed her, and if she told anyone, that he would kill her. Sherry was terrified.

Miche says in 2001 or 2002, she was working as a painter for Boyd Brothers Painting on the Outer Banks, one of only a handful of companies employing painters back then on the beach. Her co-worker at the time, a woman named Sherry, told Miche in secret that she was scared for her life and that her boyfriend had been the one that murdered Denise Johnson and that he'd not been caught.

Miche doesn't remember Sherry's last name or the name of Sherry's boyfriend. All she knows is that, according to Sherry, the guy was violent, a felon, from the Outer Banks, and worked in the construction and painting trade. Now, in addition to all of that, what was super interesting to me is that Miche mentioned that at the time of Sherry's confession to her, the two of them were also working with a woman named Bobbie, who was a house painter.

This got me thinking. Barbara Jean McGinnis, a witness in Stacey Stanton's case and was a known female house painter on the Outer Banks in the 1990s, often went by the name "Bobby." I wondered if the two "Bobbies" could be one in the same.

But Miche couldn't confirm that the Barbara "Bobby" Jean McGinnis I know is relevant to Stacey's case was the same Bobby Miche worked with in the late 90s, early 2000s. So to some extent, that was a dead end. But it's interesting nonetheless.

The bottom line is I need to find out who Sherry's old boyfriend was because based on my instincts, I had a good feeling who it might have been. And he's someone I've been able to link to both Stacy Stanton and Denise Johnson. My next move was contacting one of the Boyd brothers, Michelle's old employer. But Joe, the former owner of Boyd brothers has never returned my calls.

That's frustrating because I want to know if he knows Sherry's last name so I can find her and ask her who her boyfriend was. But as of right now, that's a dead end too. So with some idle time, I decided to figure out if Miche's tip to Donnie Johnson and then Donnie tipping me off could all lead back to Mike Brandon. I was working on a total hunch that there were more potential overlaps between him and Denise Johnson.

And that's when I remembered something. Something Susan Corrington had told me when I interviewed her for season two. Remember, Susan is the woman from season two who knew Mike Brandon well and was in the Green Dolphin Pub the night before Stacey's murder. She said that throughout the mid and late 1990s, Mike worked as a painter. At one point, she and Mike worked together for a company called Color Tech Painting, which was based in Manteo.

Susan worked with Mike periodically painting buildings. In fact, she told me that the summer before Mike broke into the Dare County Courthouse for the second time, he and her were hired to paint the roof. And she says that's how Mike knew how to enter the courthouse from the roof, because he'd been up there painting and saw it.

Still working on my hunch about Mike, I decided to try and contact the owner of Color Tech Painting, a guy named Kenny Peary, but turns out he's dead now. So I got a hold of his widow and messaged her in May, trying to find out for sure exactly what years Mike worked as a painter consistently for Color Tech. A few months went by, but Kenny's widow finally saw my message and responded in late September.

She wrote me saying, quote, Hi Delia, just saw this in a message request folder. I've been listening to the podcast. It's surreal. My husband and I hired Mike in 1996 and he was a good worker, father and friend. We lost touch when he moved in 1999. Then I heard he died. Stacey's murder was never really talked about. We had heard about it. In my heart though, I feel like he was capable of doing it.

So, Mike Brandon's former bosses join the ever-growing list of people who think Mike killed Stacey Stanton. That's not a surprise to me at this point. But one thing Kenny's widow didn't mention was anything about Denise Johnson.

However, she explained that Mike for sure worked for them in 1996 and 1997, painting houses all up and down the beach, including homes in Kill Devil Hills. This got my attention. I circle back to where I started with this lead, Donnie Johnson.

And I asked Donnie if Denise had ever had her house painted in 1996 or 1997, the years I now know for sure Mike Brandon was painting in the Outer Banks for Color Tech. And Donnie's answer was yes. Denise Johnson had the exterior of her house at 2014 Norfolk Street painted in late summer, early fall of 1996.

Donnie couldn't confirm if Color Tech Painting was the business that Denise hired, but just the fact that she said Denise got her house painted in 1996 made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. Not to mention, Michelle Basinger had told me there were only a few major painting companies back then who could have done this type of work.

Boyd Brothers Painting and Color Tech being two of the biggest companies that everyone who painted worked for. But Miche has no memory of Boyd Brothers Painting Company being the contractor who worked on Denise's house.

Now, I'm not saying there's a direct tie here between Sherry, who Michelle Basinger says told her her boyfriend was violent and confessed to killing Denise, and Mike Brandon, Color Tech Painting, or Denise Johnson. But you have to see why I found this lead so interesting, right?

I mean, on top of all of this, you throw the mention of a female painter named Bobby in the mix, and that makes it even more interesting when you consider Barbara Jean McGinnis's relevance to Stacey Stanton and Mike Brandon. The unsolved nature of Denise Johnson's murder and facts in Stacey Stanton's case are like a puzzle. Some pieces are there, some are missing, and I don't and can't ever fully see the big picture.

But every now and then, something like this lead catches my attention. And I feel I have to pursue it to the end to know if it fits somewhere or there's any truth there. I'll be honest, this lead feels like a puzzle piece that fits somewhere, somehow, but I'm not sure where. But then again, maybe it belongs to a puzzle that doesn't exist. Maybe it's just speculation, a hunch I'll never be able to prove.

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Okay, so now that everybody is filled in on that update. I can't get over it. I think I've like replayed this a hundred times to you. But like I remember when you called me with this update. I was at my grandfather's house and I just remember sitting on his like back patio when you said like, guess who had their house painted in 1996? And I was just like, Denise. It was freaking Denise, wasn't it?

So I guess what I couldn't get over is like, what are the chances that, you know, we have all these suspicions about Mike Brandon. And then, I mean, I think you explain it like in episode eight, the potential overlaps with him and Denise. And then we have this house painting thing on top of that. It's just...

Again, nothing concrete. Like you said, it's a little anecdotal, but it's like it's interesting. And this is how you build a circumstantial case. How many times have we seen circumstantial cases get built? There's just definitely something there. Yeah, I think there has to be something there. And what I want, you know, a lot of listeners to keep in their minds is that

when you're doing investigations like this, there are these sort of unbelievable coincidences or leads that even shock me, and that's when I call you, and you can hear in my voice, I'm like, you will not believe this. But even though a lot of these don't always pan out to something tangible and concrete, I think that this one has much more potential than the others to be something that the police in Kill Devil Hill should really look at a lot further, just because of

The amount of vetting that I did on it. Well, yeah. And I mean, I think if the cops are doing what they say they're doing, you know, like following up on, quote, every lead and investigating every new avenue. I mean, then they should at least put some attention into investigating Mike in relation to Denise Johnson at this point.

I mean, again, even though he's dead, they could still potentially compare his DNA or his son's DNA to anything that they say they collected from Denise's crime scene, right? Right. And I think we always have to remember, too, like Mike was a convicted felon, like multiple times in the state of North Carolina. So you know that his DNA went into databases and he has, you know, living relatives.

his son. So I think that's just something that kind of bolsters my hope that someone will realize these connections that I've made and at least see if it's possible that Mike came in contact with Denise in 1997 in particular.

Right. And I think this actually kind of brings me almost to another update, because one of the big questions, at least, I think that always got floated is I know police said, you know, maybe we have DNA, maybe we don't have DNA. That's one thing that they would just would never confirm for you. And you were never able to confirm. So for a long time, we even kind of wondered, is there anything real or anything left that can be tested?

one of the things that, you know, obviously, was she sexually assaulted? Is there a rape kit? Is there something like that? And we didn't know. A lot of those files, because it's an open investigation, were not provided to you. You requested them years ago. And then this week, you want to talk about what happened this week? Right. So this week, like literally two years after I requested as much documentation and information about Denise's autopsy from the North Carolina State Medical Examiner's Office, I

I actually got her full autopsy file, which this is sort of amazing for people that kind of follow true crime and cases, particularly unsolved homicide cases. Like a lot of stuff is kept on lockdown.

In season one, I talk about the four-page autopsy summary that the state would provide me. And they also gave me her toxicology at the beginning. And I think that was really important because that showed us, you know, there wasn't any drugs, there wasn't any alcohol in Denise's system. But that four-page autopsy summary, though it indicated manner of death and, you know, some kind of strange symptoms,

stabbing markings on her, you know, anatomical figure. I mean, it was very basic. Really vague. Very, very vague. But there were some pieces in there that then led me to get another medical examiner to kind of confirm the revelation that, you know, Denise had inhaled smoke, you know, with that 25% carbon monoxide poisoning. So those things kind of came out of that summary. But getting the full autopsy report and how I even got it is...

is nuts. So going back, when I originally requested Denise's full autopsy report, I was living in a different place. I had a different address. And I guess the state medical examiner's office two years later finally gets around to processing my request or for some reason decides to release it to me when at first they said, no, you can't have it. But anyway, they put it in the mail to me. It takes two years and it went to my old address, my old house and

and somebody else lives there now, and they got this mail. And normally you just, like, throw away junk mail that you get from, like, old tenants. It's usually junk. But this person, like, saw that the envelope was, like, thick and that it said, to Delia D'Ambra...

Chief Medical Examiner's Office of North Carolina, like, coroner. So they were like, this is serious. And, like, then they look my name up and they're like, oh, she's, she's, like, an investigative journalist. I've got to get this to her. So then they contacted the office at the old place and, like, through Facebook and text message, they're like, we have to get this package to you. I didn't realize that part of it. Yeah, like, so this woman's like,

And she posted it on, like, the community forum in the old neighborhood, which I'm not a part of because Facebook groups kick you out after you move away. So she's like, where is this Delia girl? So my friends at my old community, love them, senior citizens, awesome people, they texted me and were like, we have to get this mail to you. So I had, like, five people working to get me this package. And then I left town.

And I was like, I've got to get it. You were here in Indiana. I was here in Indiana. So my husband goes, picks it up, gets it, and, like, brings it home that night and is, like, reading it to me. And I'm, like, dying because I'm like, honey, I need you to just scan it. But we don't have a scanner at our house. So he either went across the street to our neighbors or, like, did it on his phone. But he got it all to me. And just having that happen the way it did, I think, just shows you, like, the lucky breaks that you catch sometimes.

doing this kind of work. I think even law enforcement could speak to something like that, too, is that sometimes it's just, it takes two years, but you get something. But when we, you and I, talked about what it says in that autopsy report, it is super revealing. And I don't want to go into too much detail of

What it says, because there is an ongoing case and because I've consulted with Donnie Johnson, there's things about the state of Denise's body, her injuries, etc., that I think could be kind of the killer only knows information. You know, so I don't want to ruin that for anyone that's building a case.

But even when we were talking, there were things that jumped right out. Like it confirmed we were right about the soot that's in Denise's lungs and nose and the carbon monoxide. She breathed it in. She was breathing. She was alive in that house when it was burning. But there's also, you know, other things that come in this report that show you she was savagely attacked by whoever killed her. Yeah.

And I've had little elements of it as I've been doing my investigation and getting stuff from sources. But, you know, this whole thing from Kill Devil Hills Police about when they originally told me, you know, there was no signs of sexual assault. Mark Evans, the former officer who was in the autopsy, said there was no indication of sexual assault. But what I will say that comes out of the full autopsy report is one of the last lines on one of the last pages says that

that a sexual abuse kit was performed on Denise's body. But the medical examiner never says anything about what the results were.

And it just says that that kit went to KDHPD and they took it back to the department and that's it. So that's what's interesting to me is that it wasn't like the medical examiner, Dr. Hudson, said there's absolutely no semen bound. There's no battery of her genitalia or anything like that. What he says is I took a kit, but I...

I never did anything with it. I gave it to KDHP. So that tells me if anything was collected from that...

If Katie HPD has DNA or not, it could have come from that. It also could have come from other things like her fingernails and such. But the full autopsy report doesn't mention anything about Dr. Hudson taking clippings of Denise's fingernails. So the DNA that they have or don't have, to me, doesn't indicate it came from her fingernails because there's no mention of her fingernail clippings being taken.

But there is this mention of a sexual abuse kit. So... Yeah, my biggest question is, is that something standard that they take whether or not? And maybe that is like the indicator. And so, you know, in a perfect world, like if everyone was doing the right things, it gets sent to KDHPD and they're like, oh, there is nothing here. A kit standard, but we found nothing. And maybe that's what they're saying. Maybe not. Maybe there's something else there that, again, it is an open case that they don't want to talk about. But...

There's definitely an open question that I think would be super easy to answer. Yeah, the autopsy and, you know, too, from reading it, it raises a lot of questions for me. Confirms some stuff, but it raises a lot of other ones. So, but I think with all that being said, I think we should just jump right into some of the big questions that listeners emailed in, which was about DNA and mostly DNA in terms of looking at it now that I've introduced Mike Brandon and the Stacey Stanton scenario and the overlap stuff. So,

I think the big question was, will there be any DNA testing comparison done between Mike Brandon and Denise's case? And my answer is, I hope that there is. I don't see why there's any excuse or reason not to because this is something I talked about with Donnie recently is...

If you have DNA in Denise's case, why not compare it to Mike? You have no reason not to, I think, just to clear it. Great. If it's not him, move on. If it is him, then we've got a totally different picture here. So I don't – I hope that they would do it just for clarity's sake. You know, to me at this point, I think he's been raised as a potential suspect, more so than just some random person on the street. But I think another part of that, which you know from the cases you've covered, is Mike

sample size. And that's the one thing I kept thinking. I would imagine by this point, though, you know, there's two types of DNA samples that you can take, right? Like the kind that goes into CODIS and then the kind that they're using for genealogy. I would imagine by 2020 that if a sample was big enough to be taken for CODIS or to even compare to someone, like that profile would have already been done. So like,

Either to me, it's either so small that it still has never even been processed because it's so itty bitty or it has been processed, in which case if it's already been processed, we don't need like a new sample to compare to someone else. Like we've got that standard. We just can't do like different types of testing with it. So I mean, again, this is where like if we had a little bit more clarity on what they do or do not have, we don't have to speculate on how well they're doing their job.

And I think you have to remember, too, that Mike's DNA was processed twice in Stacey's case, once by the NCSBI lab and once by LabCorp. So you have two entities that should have a sample or at least a profile of him that you could subpoena and get, even though he's dead. But I think more so than that, you have to remember, too, that when Mike's DNA was taken in 2004—

He had cheek swabs taken, which we know those, I think, can degrade a little bit more so, whereas in 2004, Patty's DNA was taken, and it was a blood vial sample. So I have to wonder, and I know, too, that when they tested Clifton's DNA a couple times, they went back to him multiple times over the years for cheek swabs.

So I think there's something about the cheek swab that maybe they don't have a fresh sample of Mike's DNA, but they could get one from his son. So that's the bigger question of what do we have of Mike's? But I think saying, oh, don't test it because it might not be worth it's not even, you know, a good approach. I think what we have to remember, too, which is something I brought up in the finale for season two is Mike.

I can see why law enforcement and prosecutors wouldn't want to sign off on that. Because if you find out that Mike Brannon's DNA is at all at Denise's crime scene... You're proving the guy that you put in jail for it is innocent. And that basically opens up a legal case for Clifton to come back and sue the state of North Carolina. Yeah. And I think the question that came in from one listener was, do I think there's a greater cover-up going on here? Yeah.

Look, there's a lot of conspiracy theories that people can believe about any crime, but I never want to think that in humanity. But when you stack all these things side by side and you really listen to episode eight and you see what the investigation has revealed, it does create the greater question of what are these political players and law enforcement players motivations here? Is it to cover something that was wrong so that repercussions can't come into play or

Or is it just negligence and bad, you know, police work and people dropping the ball and change of guard? But yeah, I think the question is definitely there. I don't think I'm fully committed to a conspiracy theory cover-up, but I think it's very possible. I agree. I think it's really likely, only because I don't think that it was like from day one, this big orchestrated plan. I mean, I think it started with bad police work, with a little bit of racial bias. I think it started that way. And in all these years later...

I mean, we've seen it not even in Clifton's case. I mean, this is like a little bit of a backstory, but I remember you and I watched the documentary Outcry. And it is... There is this DA in that documentary. My hero. Like, literally. I'm like, we're going to frame his picture in the office. He's like,

He goes out of his way to open up a case that was completely closed and say, you know what, let's just double check that we got it right. And you and I are literally like almost in tears watching this. And I remember talking to you and being like, why? Why does that stand out so much? Like, that is a DA's job. It's supposed to be to find the truth. It's supposed to be to find justice. But it shows you the fact that we were so taken aback by him doing his job that what we are used to

In society, in our justice system, is people taking sides? Is the DA not looking for necessarily the truth, but a win? And then once you get that win, keeping and securing that win at all costs. And we've seen it with a ton of wrongful conviction cases where it seems so obvious to everyone else who looks at it.

Right.

the state of North Carolina doesn't open themselves up to a lawsuit is what it feels like. And I also have to remember that what I've been told from sources and just seen throughout the narrative of the case is that you had this staunch Clifton is guilty, everything summed up in 1990. But then you really see this change of sentiment in Frank Parrish, the DA who came after H.P.

literally writes a letter on his behalf saying this man

could not be found guilty if we were to take this to trial today. And then you have DAs that come after that who, again, it's just kind of fallen off the radar because it's in the past. So, you know, no judgment towards Andy Womble, who, again, like, I mean, he's been in office. He should know about this. So I don't hold him accountable and also don't hold some of the current people on these law enforcement forces that weren't there. But the thing is, is it's now been revealed to you and there's proof.

In terms of what Frank Parrish wrote and in terms of what H.P. Williams is now saying. So this change of sentiment tells me that they know something's up. And then I combine that with everyone that I've spoken to, almost everyone that I've spoken to in Denise's case and in Stacey's case, who on and off the record say, you know, people have told us keep quiet about this.

People have said to private investigators, people who kind of decided to kind of snoop, leave it alone. Don't bring it up. And to me, and I've been told that. So to me, that combined with some of the things, it has the thought of, is there something being kept secret?

down here? Is there fear that something's going to be revealed? Again, because of, you know, is a lawsuit going to be filed? Whatever the threat is that the state could see. But I think those things all combined tell me that there is something that somebody doesn't want to be resurrected. And to me, that's not right. Well, so who do you think should be held accountable in Stacey's case? Because to me, it's very clear in Denise's case, the people who are accountable are the investigators. It is an open case. It is their responsibility for investigating it and coming to an answer and finding who did this to her.

Stacey's case is technically closed. So who do you hold responsible now? As a society, who should we all ask to be held responsible? Well, yeah. I mean, Andy Womble's office, the district attorney of Dare County, is the responsible office for what has played out. Him personally, I understand he wasn't the DA then. There's been several since. I hold...

the NCSBI responsible, particularly for Clifton's interaction with the criminal justice system, his experience. That's who Clifton holds accountable. He has said multiple times, the local people, I don't have any hard feelings towards because I understand the way things work, but I hold the NCSBI responsible. I hold the district attorney at the time, H.P. Williams, responsible. I hold some of the judges responsible for

He has no ill will towards Gary Trawick. I think that the fact that Gary Trawick, the appeals judge that denied his motions, the fact that he talked to me, I think says a lot to me that he's not running or hiding. But I think, yeah, these entities that exist now are responsible for righting wrongs. Do I hold them responsible for the wrongs that were committed? To some extent, no. And that's just me giving grace to them because it is a tough job.

I understand that investigations are tough because I've done them myself. But that being said, I've given ample information to Kill Devil Hills Police and to the Dare County Crime Line. I've also given them contacts for labs that are doing genealogical DNA testing and other testing. And so that ball is in their court, so to speak, and they should do something with it. And I will call them out every time because it is there. You have the information at your feet.

You have lists of people to go and interview that I've presented to you do the work. There's no excuse now. So what are the other like the burning questions that, you know, people wrote in? You've obviously been getting these for years at this point. What is it that everyone wants to know about the evidence and what can you tell people?

So a big question that a lot of people had is, like, the quality of the science behind some of the testing on the evidence in Stacey's case, particularly the hair and fibers, right? Because that's, like, the big point of Stacey's case is, like, in her hands were clutched hairs, right? So that's significant for any investigation. It was significant for attorneys. I mean, that's just stuff that people jump on. So what's very interesting, going back to looking at Denise's autopsy report for a second that we just got in—

I know without a shadow of a doubt that there were hairs and fibers found on Denise's body as well, which is not something that I knew very definitively before. So again, questions about hair fibers, testing of them. A lot of people brought up the point, well, you know, hair science is junk. You know, you need a root. And I explain a lot of that in episode nine, but there's a lot of mixed professional opinions about that. But I think the hairs and fibers are significant. I mean, that's...

evidence that you can look at. I think you can test now with methods today. I was just going to say, I know when people refer to hair science being junk, what they're talking about is like comparing them under a microscope and saying these hairs are similar or dissimilar. And for a long time, you had to have that root to get true DNA. But that, you're right, that's changing. Now they can pull the mitochondrial DNA, like the maternal lineage. We can get that YSTR or YSTR

whatever, for genealogy to actually use these hairs. I mean, it's brand new. It's like just been happening within the last like year or so. But as long as those are preserved properly, like I don't think that's been done yet, but it would totally be a possibility. Whose hairs is she clutching in her hand? That seems really important to me. And that's a question that the investigators asked day one in Stacey's case. And I think even for the science that existed then, which was

limited, it came back as they are not what's defined as Negroid hairs. They were not Clifton Spencer's hairs on her body and in her hands. And so right then and there, that tells me

With the limited resources they had, there's no way that that is forensic slam dunk evidence against Clifton. And so that's what you have to remember in all of this. And I think a lot of people that have been fans of the show, they identified that. Like, if anything, they knew that for sure. So now let's expand on that as we have more methodologies and resources for DNA testing now to then figure out whose could they be. And that's what I think is so upsetting is, like, I think this is one of the things that, like,

if Clifton would have gotten the chance to go to trial. That's a question I would love to hear the answer to from the investigator. So you think this guy is, you're so convinced he did it, then what's the story behind these hairs? Who do you think these belong to and why is that not significant to you? But we never even got to ask those questions because Clifton kind of got pushed into taking that plea deal. Yeah. For me, just a side note,

a lot of things would have come out in a criminal trial for this. So many. Every single person that I have brought up, whether it be their inconsistent statements, their timelines, those people would have been called as witnesses, I would have hoped.

And I just don't think their stories would have held up under a cross-examination. There's just so many things that a jury would not have been convinced of. And that's reiterated by Frank Parrish's letter, and that's reiterated by everyone that's looked at this case. It would not have stood a chance in a jury trial, and it certainly wouldn't have stood a chance for first-degree murder, capital murder.

There's just no way. And it goes to things like the hair, you know, results and things like that. What would that have meant at trial? But we'll never know. There's also a lot of questions that came in from listeners about were the hairs that were found on Stacey as important as we think they are because it was known that Stacey was a hairdresser on the side and she cut people's hair in her apartment and

And so then you kind of think, all right, well, are they just stray hares laying around? But I think you have to look at what was documented, which is they are in her wounds. They are in the mutilation wounds. They are in her neck wounds. They are in her hands. That...

evidence doesn't just magically float to a place like that. Well, is there anything like specifically said in any of the reports you've read about how deep in the wounds or like were her hands clutch? Because the one thing I will say, I remember when we first found out that someone turned the freaking ceiling fan on in the crime scene. So a little part of me, I mean, and maybe that's how they would have explained it away because I can kind of see that, right? If she's a hairdresser and she has these clippings, I mean, I

You have to be like pretty untidy. I don't believe she would just leave clippings all around her house. But if there were some clippings that got missed and the ceiling fan gets turned on, like I can see how they could blow on her. Right.

literally fall down from the sky. But that's where, to me, it becomes important of like, I mean, are these deep? Are her hands clutched around them? Because then that doesn't happen. Yeah, and I always think about the volume of hair that was found. So when they took the tapings from the carpet around her body and on her body, the lab reports say, you know, quite a few hairs were on those. And they would pick one or two to actually test, right?

So I also think about that theory of, well, why were there so many hairs? Like, if I'm fighting you, I'm having to pull out a lot of your hair. So the fact that there was, to me, what appeared to be a larger volume of hairs could speak to, yes, some of them might be belonging to other people. And it just so happens that the ones they chose to test or not test, again, is it relevant? Yes. How relevant? I don't know. You don't know until you do the testing, right? Right. Right.

And we just talked about this, but one question somebody sent in was, what kind of physical evidence makes Clifton 100% guilty? And the answer is, none. None. That's why we're sitting here screaming. Yeah, the only thing that you have is his fingerprints there, which, you know, he admitted to being there. And you have the sample of saliva on one cigarette, one of like 10 cigarettes, right? Well, and this is what really gets me is, again—

Zero evidence that he was the murderer. There is evidence that he was in the house, which he says, yes, he was. But if that's all you need to make a murderer, there was another man in that house who admits to being in that house with both of them. So what made Clifton more guilty than that guy?

And there was documented a lot of people that had been in and out of that apartment, whether it be in the hours or days before. So you have this high traffic area. So saying that, proving someone's presence there, to me, is not, you know, the linchpin of this. God, I hope not. Or, like, anytime I go visit someone and then they die, like, I just might go to prison. Yeah. That's terrifying. But, again, that speaks back to the racial element of this.

that, you know, they had someone set in their sights who they felt was a prime suspect. And having his fingerprints there, I think, combined with potential prejudices, you know, lined up to be what it was. But

A lot of people asked about the hairs and, you know, the state that evidence is in now and if there's hairs still around. And I really can't answer that because, yeah, I hope that there's evidence still around. Whether it's been destroyed or not is an unknown. But if there are things that still exist in boxes somewhere, I'm betting you that it's not kept very great because I know that it wasn't kept great for decades.

All those years when Christine Mumma eventually had it taken back out, a lot of stuff was degraded and missing. So, you know, whatever is there, I don't think it's that great in terms of how it was stored, but I don't think it means it can't be tested. Well, and that's like the— Or shot. What you run into with any cold case, right? Like, time is not on your side, whether it's people passing away, people not being able to remember, or evidence degrading. Like, that's why it's so important that these cases not just sit and be forgotten, and that is—

Someone needs to be actively working and needs to be asking these questions. Well, there was a lot of even outside of evidence. There's a lot of like general questions that I think people have gone bananas over, like you have gotten asked a hundred thousand times. So it might be nice to just like what are the what are the questions that you get get asked the most that you would like to provide some clarity on if you can?

So yeah, there is one question that has come in the most from listeners in the entire time that I've been doing these investigations, and it has to do with Teresa. Teresa.

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That's T-R-Y-F-I-R-S-T-L-E-A-F dot com slash counterclock. Tryfirstleaf.com slash counterclock. Okay, so give me the scoop. What does everyone want to know about Teresa? So people have asked me time and time again, hey, if you know who Virginia Teresa is, and this is Denise's case we're talking about,

Why don't you show pictures of Virginia Teresa to Teresa Rogers, the Amco gas station night clerk who contributed to the police sketch who she says was completely wrong. The sketch was done wrong. But she says, you know, she has this distinct memory. I remember the woman following Denise around this convenience store. Right.

And my answer to that is I have. I promise you, I have. So I have a limited amount of photos of Virginia Teresa that I sent to Teresa Rogers. But the problem is, is Virginia Teresa's pictures, she's wearing a hat or sunglasses or they're a little far away. Her appearance has changed over the years. And

And so Teresa Rogers cannot make a positive, absolutely sure ID because there's some obscurities in Virginia Teresa's appearance. And so that makes it difficult. But I just want listeners to know that I have. Like, that's something I have tried to corroborate. But, you know, Teresa Rogers just can't make that confirmed ID. And then you also have to think about

You know, it's a lot of years that have passed, and people do change. I'm going to look a lot different 23 years from now than I do right now. And, you know, you combine things like potential drug use, alcohol use. Those things change people's appearances, and they affect people's memories. I was just going to say, I was like, more than anything, too, I...

It was a significant moment. I'm not doubting that Teresa Rogers doesn't remember. But like for my own self, if it was 30 years later, I don't know that I would have a clear picture of someone in my head anymore. Or I mean, there have been so many studies about just how like fallible memory is in general.

and how we can implant our own memories or change them or whatever, and no matter how much you believe they're true. So even an ID this many years later, even if she said yes, I think we would have to take it with a grain of salt. If she said no, take it with a grain of salt. That's just never going to be the linchpin, I think, for me. And just because Teresa Rogers can't make an official ID on Virginia Teresa doesn't mean that Virginia Teresa doesn't need to be interviewed more or her story questioned more. And I think police know that.

And so having the ID would be great, but I think the fact that she is relevant to this narrative about, you know, the hours and days and weeks leading up to Denise's death, she's still a very relevant person. Well, and I think that that's what's so important in looking at this case when you talk about them getting spoken to again by police is

It seems so critical because we're not saying Eric and Teresa had to have done it right all along. We've been saying talk to them. And that is proved in season two when we're saying, hey, there's this other like really good road that you need to be going down and investigating. And just for argument's sake, say the road, the right road is the Mike Brandon road in Denise's case. To me, then talking to Eric and Teresa becomes all the more important.

You were right next door. Let's talk about when she got her house painted. Let's talk about did you see whoever was coming and leaving those letters? Did you hear anything that night? Even them as witnesses become so important. So I hope that they would continue to cooperate with police and talk to police. Whatever road they're going down, because I think you see this in so many investigations. And I think it's so important for listeners to keep their mind open and not go crazy on the Internet because...

So many roads can look so good when you're investigating them. You feel like you're on it. You feel like this is the one and then you find something else. Like as much as I've worked with police, that's the one thing I walk away with is in most of the cases. It's not just like this is it and this is the only way. Like so many times I've seen like there's like three or four people that you could make the most amazing case for and I believe it.

Yeah, and I think your point of Eric and Teresa become all that more important to speak to in light of the potential Mike Brandon scenario coming up is really critical because I know undisputed that in the late, all throughout the 1990s, but particularly in 1997, Mike Brandon was a habitual drug user and alcohol user. And he was caught up in that drug community.

I also know that his brother-in-law, Ray, Patty's brother, who lived a stone's throw from Denise's front door, was also in that lifestyle. So the fact that they could have been in a drug community. But then I also know that the people in and around Eric and Teresa's sphere, again, Eric being Denise's next-door neighbor, that Eric was involved in drugs too.

And one drug in particular in which he had a later conviction on, which contributed to him leaving the Outer Banks after the crime. That's undisputed by eyewitnesses and people that lived with Eric and Teresa. So I see that overlap of drug community, drug interaction, the close proximities of these players as

to Norfolk Street, to Kill Devil Hills. So I think talking to as many people that were in that sphere becomes all the more important when you introduce Mike Brandon into the picture like I've done in season two, because did they hang out together? Was Mike Brandon ever in the 2012 Norfolk Street downstairs apartment where Eric lived? Was Eric ever over at Ray's house on West Durham Street, right next door to Norfolk Street? So it leaves you all those questions, and I think that's the stuff that police should be asking.

So what's another one of these questions that you just get asked over and over and over again? One big thing that people have written into me asking is Donnie Johnson brings up this barbell that was found in Denise's home after the crime scene was cleared. And Donnie's really specific on this. She says she came into Denise's house. Everything was charred and burned. They're cleaning stuff up. And she sees this barbell in front of the threshold of Denise's bedroom door.

And there is an evidence photo on our website, and it's been something that listeners have been able to go and look at for themselves. And you do see this large, what appears to be a weight or barbell of some sort laying right across that door to the bedroom. Upon closer examination, people have raised the point of, I think this might be a floor lamp.

You know, like a tall, skinny floor lamp that on each end kind of has these half-dome ends. Kind of reminds me of the clap lamps, you know, that could have fallen. And that's what's in front of the door. And to that, I say it's possible. KDHPD has never clarified. We don't have an inventory of evidence that I can see. But Donnie's pretty clear that she believes it was a barbell. So it's stuff like that that I can't answer for sure. But I do want listeners to know that

I have read those messages. I've thought about it. I've looked at the pictures over and over, the limited ones I have, and it's possible. But there's really no definitive answer.

Another thing that listeners also wanted to know more about is the potential of a bat being in Denise's home. And it's something that I raised when I interviewed Jeff Magruder, Denise's long-term boyfriend, who she still had a cordial relationship with just prior to her murder. And Jeff said at Denise's funeral, you know, she had bruises on her face. She looked like she'd been beaten.

She didn't look the same. And he knows that Denise kept a baseball bat or a softball bat in the home. And when I asked Donnie Johnson about that, she says, you know, I think Denise played softball. Maybe there could have been a bat. So the whole relevancy of was there a bat, was there not? Could that have been involved? You know, I don't know. But something that's really interesting is I got a phone call just a couple of months ago from a guy who had recently started listening to the show.

And he's from the Outer Banks. And he called me and he said, hey, I just want to let you know that I listened to that episode about the bat. And my mother was friends with Denise Johnson back in 1997. In fact, the summer of 1997. And he said, my mom played in a softball league with Denise Johnson. There you go. And those leagues still go on today in the Outer Banks. Yes.

And so for me, though it was a very small detail, it was now the third corroborating

account that Denise could have been in possession and very likely was in the possession of softball sports equipment, potentially a bat. And so Jeff's observation of, I think she might have been hit with that bat, now becomes a little more relevant to me because I got that call. Does it mean I know anything for sure? No. But again, it's these overlapping accounts that make you go,

Do police know that? Did they know that then? Now that they know it now, why don't they go check the evidence, see if there's a bat? If there's not a bat, could it be something a killer took away from the scene? You know, those are the questions that I think start to arise. Well, I have even like a, to kind of zoom out a lot, one of the questions I hear all the time is how did Delia even decide to cover Denise's case? I mean, this is the first one, season one,

Very first podcast ever. Like what drew you to Denise's case? Like what was that moment? What was that thing that made you decide like this is the case that I'm going to work on and this is how I'm going to turn it into a podcast? I think I knew that I wanted to put my skills towards investigating things long term. I wanted to try and help families.

And I knew that my skill set of being an investigative journalist would allow me to do things for these families that maybe would give them some peace, could maybe find resolution, could revive cases, get public attention. I worked in TV news for years before I started the podcast, and I knew that I was going to be a part of that.

I knew that attention, public attention, outcrying gets people to do their job. So that was my motivation. I think Denise's case for me was that I was a local. I was from there. I am from there. And the fact that it was so cold, I mean, nothing had been done, just told me, like, there's so much more here. I think the arson aspect of it for me was incredibly interesting because I

you don't see that often. I mean, we know arsons and bodies being burned are things that occur, but just all the circumstances of the case just really motivated me to think, is there more questions we can ask? I bet there's people that know stuff that they're not saying. And so I think being a local, knowing the area, having inns with people was the reason I picked Denise's case for Stacey's case. And this is a question a lot of people have asked me. I was actually there for

that one we didn't know each other when you started Denise's case but I'll never forget this call either is I remember I was in I was actually in Florida at the time and we had just launched I think season one and so we're talking about like obviously by the time we launch most of the work is done like the season's ready to go out and we're like okay well what's what's next

And I vividly remember you being on the phone with me and like pitching me story ideas. I'm like, yeah, it's good. It's good. And I was like, I don't know. Like, I feel like I feel like it's missing something. Season one was so strong. Like, we've got to have something just as well. And you're like, well, I have this thing in my back pocket. But like, I thought that people wouldn't want it.

Yeah, so as a reporter, like, I've always kept an ace up my sleeve kind of thing. And Stacey's case was formulating into that. So the months prior to season one launching, I knew that I wanted to do another case and

And I have covered a lot of cases. A lot of cases poured into me after season one kind of got attention to people, a lot of people asking for help on their loved ones' cases. But Stacy's to me was something that I didn't know hardly anything about. I remember growing up in Manteo, you know, running around, skateboarding, going to church, I mean, right there by Stacy's apartment.

So the fact that I lived there, I had heard about, oh, you know, a woman was stabbed there. My family knew Edgar Barnes's family. My dad and him are good friends. Eddie was always haunted by this case. Eddie being Clifton Spencer's appeals attorney in 1992. But, you know, my family, we were so ingrained in that community that when I really started to kind of poke and pry into Stacey's case, I realized...

Wow, this is kind of nutty. Like the fact that this occurred, the sequence of events occurred in the way they did, it just seems unthinkable.

And again, the way she was murdered, her background, it really kind of harkened back to Denise's life. I identify with these women. They were my age, roughly, when they were brutally murdered. They were both waitresses. They were both brutally stabbed in my hometown. And I knew this area, and I knew the people there. And we moved there in the 90s. The 90s are my thing now. So, like, it just becomes...

It's something that I just felt compelled to do. So when I was pitching in these other stories, I was like, yeah, I could do them too. But then that ace up my sleeve was maybe this one's the one we do. And the wrongful conviction element of it too, I think, was something that just really, really settled in my soul. And I said, I've got to look into this further because it just doesn't seem right. Yeah.

And so in all of your, you know, it's been a couple years now of investigating both of these. I think every week there's a jaw dropping moment for the listener. This is like your everyday life now, though. But of these two cases that you've covered, can you identify like a couple of moments that were like your favorite?

moments? Yeah, so the really big like aha or oh my goodness moments for me like in real time for both of these investigations was one that understanding Denise was actually breathing in smoke before she died. That was critical for me in terms of time of death and sequence of events. I know for a fact investigators that looked at this case in the beginning said, oh,

oh, it was maybe, you know, a robbery or a murder or something covered up by arson. The arson was after the fact. The arson was to eliminate evidence. Some smart criminal came in there and figured out, I've left stuff behind. But the realization that that was not true and that Denise...

Her home was on fire. The fires were burning significantly to some extent before her fatal wound changes the trajectory in which you see how the killer could have struck. And so for me, that was a huge moment. And I think it was a huge moment for listeners and for you as well.

Also, another big moment for me in Stacey's case was this discovery that Tina, who found Stacey's body, was in fact Mike Brandon's sister. I will never forget that when you called me. That is something I think even the best detectives will go, you cannot ignore that. That is not coincidence.

So that was huge. Well, and I think what's so important, and I think, again, speaks to the diligence of your work, is I remember not just that first call, but the follow-up calls when you're like, I talked to this person who was a lawyer who worked, like all these people who worked on the case, who made this case their life for a period of time in their life. And that was news to every single one of them.

Because they didn't realize she had been married, divorced, remarried. And so her originating name, maiden name of Brandon, was sort of lost over the years. And so until you go back and look at that, or I don't know, just ask the question.

What's your name? What's your relation to the people in this case?

about how he murdered Stacey. So that, for me, that affidavit in 2016, so many years after the crime with Terrell Charity not having really any motivation to make that claim with no benefit to him that I can find was significant. And I think it's significant, too, because, I mean, what he's saying is,

granted, I think his is the most compelling, the most strong. It is the affidavit he had nothing to gain by saying this, but it is backed up by all these other stories we're hearing, right? Like there was that jailer who said Mike Brandon confessed. We have Patty saying it was Mike. Like in all these different time points,

people have alluded to this confession happening or straight up said this confession happened from Mike. So it's not just one person with one story. Again, I think his is the most legitimate, but it's backed up by like a story people are hearing over and over and over again over a long span of time. Yeah. And I think to the point I made in the finale, which is,

Why wasn't that affidavit enough for the Innocence Inquiry Commission to get Clifton's case before their three-judge panel? I mean, I know you can't bank everything on one person, but they weren't. They had other things that they had observed, other testimony, other motions, other things that had come into play, so Terrell Charity added to that still not being enough to

to me, just screamed, why? And that's the question that I want the listeners to ask, which is why we asked them to write to the Innocence Inquiry Commission and to write to the General Assembly of North Carolina, because you should be asking that same question that I am. Yeah, and we still have all of that information in the blog post for episode 10 of season two. Literally, guys, it's the easiest thing. You can copy-paste. We told you exactly what to write. We told you who to send it to by email, by mail.

It's important to get that information. And like Delia said earlier, what she's learned, what I've learned from our years doing any type of media is that what gets people to do their job and to do it well and to be held accountable is the public pressure for sure. Yeah.

So you talk about the affidavit from Terrell Charity being so important to you, but there were actually a lot of other, like, statements made by other people in this case who are not, like, the main players. They're more of, like, our periphery players that a lot of our listeners had questions about. So do you want to speak to those a little bit? Yeah. So one person that a lot of questions came in about is –

Ray Griggs, Patty's brother, who is someone who contributed quite a bit to the statements provided to police in 1990. What's very interesting about Ray is right after episode eight, the overlap episode released, I got a message from Ray saying,

And I had been calling him and emailing him and, you know, leaving messages. So he knew that I wanted to speak with him for months and months. After that episode aired, he messaged me saying, you know, hey, I think you should call me at my house. And here's the hours that I work. And you already have my home phone number. I can see. So yeah, I do because I have been calling you. But then, I mean, just within it was on a Saturday and just within like an hour or two of that first message where I'm like, great, awesome.

Let me figure out, you know, how I can coordinate this. Yeah, you literally texted me. You were like, Ray's ready to talk. Like, I'm going to set something up. And then, like, you're not kidding. Within an hour, you text me back. And we're like, it's not happening. Yeah, so he wrote me a message. And he said that he actually thought that he should no longer talk with me. And this is the actual verbiage he used. He says, because he didn't think there was anything he could say that would change anything.

And I find that really interesting because to me that tells me, one, he's been listening. One, he knows what I know and what I know that he said. I know about his, you know, obviously being Patty's brother. But the fact that he said there's nothing I could say that would change anything basically to me is him saying I can't change the past. I can't change the fact that I'm Patty's brother anymore.

it's just interesting to me that someone would say it in that way. And to me, I disagreed with him. I said, actually, I think you could help a lot in terms of clarification. I'm not after you. I've said that publicly on the podcast, but I think you are somebody who is part of this regardless of whether you want to be or not. And your sister is as well. So it was a bummer that he kind of

changed his mind. But even though, you know, we didn't end up talking, I do want listeners to know that I've had interaction with him. And he's somebody that, you know, just changed his mind. And I can't, you know, change that. In all of the documents you've reviewed and evidence and transcripts and whatever, did he, I know he did an interview. I believe he got polygraphed. Is that right? He was never polygraphed. Never polygraphed. Okay, never polygraphed. Did they ever collect his DNA? Not that I have ever seen documented.

Which is interesting to me because I remember one of the things that we talked about in the season was that washcloth, right? Yep. It didn't match Patty or Mike, correct? Right. Didn't match Clifton. Right. So the prevailing theory was, oh, this has nothing to do with it. It's just like such a weird coincidence that there's a bloody washcloth right near a crime scene. There's no direct connection. That's what they say. But I...

To me, I don't know how you can say that yet until you eliminate everyone who's in this circle. So that was always a question I had is, was any forensic testing done for Ray? Again, like he has never been connected to this. He's never been named a person of interest. But like so many people in this case, I don't know that he was talked to enough. And I...

I would hope that he would want to talk. I know, again, like you said, he thinks he can't change anything, but I do think he could provide some valuable insights to fill in some holes and some pieces where right now we're kind of just left to speculate. Yeah, and that washcloth that was found on the street

presumably on Ananias Dare Street, it came back to a male DNA profile. It did not come back to female. So it cannot be Patty's biological material or blood or whatever, you know, was on there. So it's a male, but it's someone who's not in a database or at least wasn't in 2005. It could be now. So again, resubmitting that could be a potential, you know, aha moment.

And another person like Ray that people had questions about was Leslie Austin. So this is the young man. He was a young man in 1990 who lived on the same property as Stacey's apartment complex. And he has a statement to police that he saw Stacey in the driveway. She needed a spare key to her house. He gave her one because obviously his parents were the landlords of that apartment building. And so, you know, he's also the guy that went to the ATM and saw Mike Brandon twice and

in this, you know, time span in the night that's sort of in question. And people asked, you know, more about him. Could he be lying? And my answer to that is, I don't know. Police didn't press further in 1990, and Mr. Austin has no desire to speak with me now. Some people have raised the question of, was he related to Burt Austin, the Deer County Sheriff, who was...

you know, a figure and somebody that I interviewed for the show. And yeah, they're in the same familial line, but so are a lot of people on the Outer Banks, you know? So again, is there this greater question of, is Leslie Austin someone that could have done it? I mean, at this point, I think...

I think the question of could Clinton have done it is no. So everyone else is, yeah, a potential. So do I think he's someone that could provide more information? Yeah. I wish he had had more interviews with police back then, but they just didn't pursue that. So it ends there. I have all the same questions about him as I do about Ray, right? Like, again, my questions weren't specific to Ray. It's he probably wasn't polygraphed. His DNA was probably not collected. So again, it goes back to like, I mean, this guy lived underneath her, had a key to her apartment, right?

I would assume that's someone you have to thoroughly vet, but who, based on the information we've been given, has not been thoroughly vetted in a way that you would look to eliminate someone. Somebody else, Patty Rowe. Her name is no longer Rowe, but, you know, she is critical to this. She's critical to everything. She is a part of this narrative.

She was spoken to multiple times by law enforcement. She provided information to law enforcement. Her DNA was taken. There's documented criminal history of her on the Outer Banks attacking women throughout the 1990s. I mean, these things are undisputed. So, yeah, I would love to talk to her, but can't. She won't. Will she talk to police? I would hope so. She has in the past. So that's kind of my answer to those questions.

So obviously, with all of this, we raised a lot of reasonable doubt at a minimum. Yeah. What does that, you know, I've alluded, I've said it in the past, like, I think if the state of North Carolina were to reopen, I mean, that they're opening themselves up to a lawsuit. I think, I think Clifton has a really good case, but he's out of prison, which makes it really complicated. So...

Give me, I know there's been a lot of questions about, like, Clifton's legal battles and what's next and how, where does his case stand with the state of North Carolina? So can you kind of just talk about all those questions you have related to Clifton and the legal process? Yeah. So as it stands right now, according to Clifton's attorney, Christine Mumma, they want to get back in court and get a new hearing, which, you know, she's, again, she's filed motions to get

more evidence that was tested by the NCIC, North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission, to then introduce that in a new hearing to say that

Here again is all the reasons why I think this man was wrongfully convicted. And so then that puts the ball in the state's court of saying, OK, do we want to retry this? Do we want to keep these charges and build the case again from scratch, which is going to be super hard to do, especially with everything I found out.

Or would the state decide, hey, we think it's about time, we're just going to vacate the charges, which again is different than exoneration. But it is taking that second-degree murder conviction off of Clifton's record, which would no longer make him a convicted felon in the state of North Carolina.

So, getting back in court is kind of the priority right now. But to the question of can he file a civil lawsuit, yeah, he can file a lawsuit against every entity if he wanted to. But, you know, I think he has a great case for that. He certainly would have an amazing case for that if he was formally exonerated, either by a pardon or...

winning it in court, which is something that they definitely are after at this point. But whether that will happen anytime soon is kind of up in the air. So something that I think is important to get into, and I know we get questions about, we heard a little bit from Stacey's brother in this season, but not a whole lot else. You know, they're not super involved in the investigation or in your work. I mean, obviously they support it, but like, can you give the listeners a little more background into really

where Stacey's family's head is at right now. Have you had any contact with them since the season? What are they thinking? I mean, I think we'd just love to hear more about...

Yeah, and that's a very drastic difference between season one and season two. Season one, you have Donnie Johnson, a very active participant in the investigation into Denise's death. With season two, yeah, we don't really have that family member that's like the one that's been kind of like, you know, the spearheader of everything all these years. But it did take a lot of work tracking down Stacey's family. So Stacey's mother and father are deceased.

She does have two sisters. They just declined to participate in the podcast. I just don't think it's in their character to come out publicly and do something like this, and I totally respect that. But they do know the show's out. They talk about it.

Edward Stanton, Stacey's younger brother, was interesting because I was able, after months and months of trying to contact him, was able to contact him and begin this kind of messaging relationship that we have through his wife and through social media. And so a lot of that interaction has been really positive. And at first he was hesitant because it is really, they're still grieving this tragedy, but they fully support the show. They listen every week.

They are very appreciative of the work. And, you know, they've learned a lot of information from it that I think has really touched them a lot. Yeah, and I know that—so we obviously read an email or message from them earlier in the season. But actually, as the season came to a close, they reached out to you again, right? They did. And I will say, as they have listened to this season, like—

Ed and his wife, Sharon, are absolutely 100 percent convinced that Clifton Spencer is innocent and is not the person that murdered Stacey, which I think is absolutely critical for listeners to know. And they have stated that to me. And so that's very interesting when you have that coming from them. But, yeah, the message that they sent me just recently was actually really touching, because

And to me, I think it speaks a lot to just how this series impacts people's lives, particularly those that are close to the victims. So the message that she wrote me on Monday, I'll just read it verbatim for people to hear. But she wrote, Hi, Delia. I'm soon finishing up on your podcast about Stacey. I have so much more to listen to. Ed can't thank you enough for all you have done in your investigations. You have done more than anyone ever with like three exclamation points.

We know Clifton is an innocent man. I know you mentioned about any more questions. Is there any DNA left that can be tested? If you have any more questions for Ed, please reach out to me. We are forever grateful for all your hard work. We were in the Outer Banks in August 2019. Ed wanted to visit Manny-O. It was his first time there since the murder. We walked through the town and thought of Stacy. Then six months later, we hear from you and

And we find that amazing. We currently have a vase of Stacy's in our home. It was in her apartment at the time of the murder. It still has the same dirt in the vase. I talked to the vase. And I've prayed for closure for my husband. I'm thinking by the time I hear all of your podcast, we will have a definite answer. You get choked up when you read it. I do because it is a reminder that

These people are really suffering and they have these like mementos like we think about victims families like they keep these little things and like the dirt that's in the vase like to me like you can't ever let this go. And the fact that she talks to it it's like she's talking to Stacy and I just like I get really touched by that because

It's just, I don't know, it's just like wrenches at your heartstrings. And so to have them message me that, it's a reminder that this work is important and that this work matters and that it matters to them. And to that point, that's what really matters to me, that they are on board with it and cool with it. So yeah.

A few months before Sharon actually sent me this message, she sent me another message, which was something that I shared with you. And it had a bunch of great photos of Stacey that they were sharing with us for the website and for the series because they wanted to have, like, good images of her. And a lot of them were taken at the Christmas before her murder. So it's, like, just a few months before her murder. So they were really recent of her. And it was when she was back in...

at home in New Jersey with her family. And there was this one photo that included something that was really interesting. It was something that I called you and I was like, I have to talk about this. The cat, yes. Right. So the cat is something that was in these pictures when I looked at them. So

There's this photograph in the pictures that Sharon sent me of a cat sitting on a sink, and it's just sitting there. Like, no one's holding it. No one's petting it. It's just sitting there. But I noticed that the timestamp for the photo in the corner says 1996. So I'm like, why are they sending me, with all these photos of Stacey, this picture of a random cat from 1996? Like, Stacey was murdered in 1990. Right. So what is this? And so Sharon went on to explain that

The cat was actually named Molly. And according to Edward, he took the cat after Stacey's death and the cat was Stacey's pet. And they were told that the cat was in the apartment at the time of Stacey's murder, which just like,

It blew me away. I had never heard that or seen any reference to that anywhere. And when I called you, you had a thousand questions, too. I was just going to say that, yeah. Because, you know, the obvious question at first is, again, we're talking about these short hairs found in Stacey. And then all of a sudden it opens this question, okay, not only could they potentially be people's hair that she's cutting, could it be cat hair? Is this hair even human? Right.

There's nothing in anything that says these aren't consistent with human hair. I believe that those are human, but we don't know for sure. Right. But I think the bigger question that this raises and why we think it's so important is why is there no mention of a cat? Like if you're doing a thorough comb through of a crime scene,

we don't hear about, if we don't hear about the cat at all, we don't hear about the food, the litter box, like anything that an animal would be in there, an animal could have disturbed the crime scene. Was it an indoor cat? Was it an outdoor cat? And it wasn't there. And that's why the crime scene, it's just this weird, and this is why we couldn't really fit it in any episode, this weird, like, oh,

open-ended thing. What is this? Yeah. And so the importance to me is like, I look at it and with my investigative cap, I go, look, this isn't corroborated by anyone else. Like I cannot find a shred of documentation from the crime scene walkthrough by the NCSBI, crime scene tech, like nothing that mentions a cat or cat paraphernalia, like you said, a litter box or any paw prints or anything like that.

And so the fact that I am told this by a family member who then later cared for the cat and that I don't see it in any NCSBI stuff combined with I know there are falsehoods in those reports about Clifton makes me bring into question everything in them. Like...

Did they just not pay attention to the cat or was it there, but they just really thought that these hairs were Clifton's? So when they wrote up their reports before the testing came back, it's just like, you know, something that they didn't want to put in there when they first made their assessment. Like, there's a lot of things I have questions about. The fact that it's omitted from the reports but stated by the family is weird. Well, and a thought that I just had and honestly had not thought about before is I think it's really important to me

if this was an indoor cat versus an outdoor cat, based on how they went and took care... I just have a feeling it was more of an indoor cat, but I do not know. But say it was. You know what's really strange to me is we have the crime scene photos, like...

It was a bloody crime scene. There are no pity paw prints in the blood, which means either the cat's not there and it means nothing. Or if the cat was inside, to me, it's more of an indicator that we didn't have a long time that Stacey was just in her apartment alone with her cat or that cat likely would have been like roaming around if the cat was hungry, like going towards, you know, Stacey for whatever reason.

It almost like potentially could narrow down that window of time more and more and more, which we've speculated before. Could she have been murdered closer to the morning or, you know, like closer to when she was actually found? And that's interesting to me. If there's a cat in the home, but zero sign of it, like why neglect something like that? It might not be important to the investigation, but the fact that it's not there is strange.

So I think we've actually covered most of the lingering burning questions that the listeners have had. I hope this has been helpful for them. But this is where I think our investigation truly ends in this. I mean, I know you never stop. Like, you will always be taking tips. You will always keep going. But really, you have done so much. It is now in...

in law enforcement's hand for Denise Johnson's case. It is now in legal hands for Stacey Stanton's case and for Clifton Spencer's case. And so, you know, I think this really is the wrap up, right? Like, I think everyone thought we were done with Denise. It came back in season two, but...

You're moving on to a new investigation, and this is where this one ends. Yeah, and I think, you know, people's—a lot of questions came in, any teasers for season three and what are you working on? And, you know, I'll let you handle that, but I think people just know that my style of storytelling, my work is the same. I'm passionate about season three's case. It is super, you know, complicated, but that's kind of my specialty now. It is.

And I I'm you never cease to amaze me because I'm always again, your work is was so good on Denise Johnson's case that that I was I was concerned. I was like, I don't I don't know how season two could compete. And it did. You raised the bar.

Season three, one of the questions that we actually didn't ask is someone sent in, they were like, Ashley, what was your oh s*** moment? Like the time that Delia called you and you just like couldn't believe the thing that she was telling you. And I mean, I've had a lot of those throughout season one and throughout season two. But I think the biggest one that I had came in season three, which you have been working on now for like eight months now.

Which we plan on putting out early-ish in 2021. I mean, I think we're looking at like Q2 of 2021, if you guys want to like set your calendars. And it's going to be, you know, it's all the same great reporting. It is the biggest, strangest case that like we have ever been involved in. We're going to release it in a little bit of a different way. I mean, I think there's a lot for the listeners to be excited about.

And you guys will have those huge, like, what the crap moments that I have had that just, oh my God, that just like blow us away. It will, it will blow you away. Yeah. So if you guys haven't already listened to Counter Clock Season 1 and 2, or you want to go back

and kind of like compare some of the stuff we've been talking about, feel free to go back and binge season one and season two. You can find it on all of the podcast platforms and I will see you guys back for season three. So stay tuned. Bye.

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