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LinkedIn, the place to be, to be. Are you comfortable? I'm so comfortable. I love this chair. I want that chair. I love that skirt. What is that? You like this chair? I like the chair. I like your skirt better than the chair. You like my skirt? I mean, the furniture is from the 80s. I know, but that's what I love. It's part of the whole ambiance. Well, it's club random. It's random. I mean, you couldn't find, I don't think,
Maybe a set designer could find this somewhere. It's just, it's beyond ugly, but it is of the era. Not that I'm trying to do the 80s, because everything here is from some different, I mean, it's truly random. But you remember this room when I had my, I remember you talking to Barbara Streisand right over there in the middle of the room. Was that my 60th birthday party? Your 60th birthday. Right. I mean, that's before we made it into this, but.
Yeah, that was a very eclectic group. But also, you know, how I haven't been here since the pandemic. And you've built sort of, it seems to have grown. Like there's a tree house and there is the guest house. But somehow it feels there's more, more structures. No, I just lit them. I mean, it took me a long time to get this place done.
Like, I mean, even this place, which is like a dirty little rat scholar, which is what I love about it. It took me a while. You know, I've been here 20 years. Can you believe that? I mean, and didn't you tell me that we know each other 30? 30. Because I did. And it's so amazing because Chuck and Chris, I've known them for 30 years. They were there when I did the first Politically Incorrect in New York.
In 1993. Oh, Chuck and Chris, the producers of this podcast. Yes. And they were here. And Chuck told me how...
Remember when we were nominated for an Emmy for Strange Bedfellows that we did with Al Franken? I've blocked out the Emmys, Ariana, but I'll take your word for it. Remember that. I don't know. I've been nominated for 40 of them. I know. So they all just kind of go into one. But that was the only one I was nominated for. Right. When you and Al Franken did Strange Bedfellows. As part of Politically Incorrect and Bed Together. Right. Right.
And I said, Chuck reminded me that I said to him during one of the intermissions, I said, Chuck, I just really want to get out of here. And he said, great. He said, I'll drive you home. I said, really? So he drove me home and he and my mom and Agapi, my sister, sat down and had dinner. Really? And instead of watching the rest of the Emmys and my mom, do you remember my mom? Of course. She loved you.
My mom loved you and my daughters loved your girlfriends because they always felt that they were more their age.
Well, they were. Still are. And they talk to them instead of the older people who ignore them. I mean, it's been a long time since I brought girlfriends around to you. I mean, it's been a long time. But it's been a long time. It's 30 years. You used to bring girlfriends. Oh, I think. Actually, I hired one of them. Do you remember your science girlfriend? Of course.
So I hired her. I mean, of course. She was amazing, gorgeous, brilliant. And I hired her to be a science editor at the Huffington Post. Yes. And remember she launched this series, which was, I think, your idea, Talk Nerdy to Me? I produced that, yes. So what happened? Talk Nerdy to Me, such a great franchise. Yeah.
We probably shouldn't get into all this. You're right. Beautiful and brilliant and absolutely made to be a science communicator.
I've always felt that. I mean, she had not even thought of that career. I said, this is what you should be doing. And of course, she took to it like a duck to water because as you say, she was quite brilliant. So she could adapt to anything very, very quickly. I remember we were going around to meetings. She was 25 at the time and so young and also no familiarity with show business really. And yet after the first two meetings,
She was so hip to like what was going on. Like we get out of the meeting and she'd say, you know, that network probably needs something in their 8 p.m. slot that I'm like, whoa. Yeah. But look, the girlfriend thing, you know, you always said, I mean, you were always the one saying I should get married. Yes. Have children. And I just feel like I'm at the point now where we know it's not going to happen.
And so I can kind of, I have a little high ground to say to you, people project onto other people what they think would make them happy, but it's really projecting based on what makes you happy. And, you know, you could have been right all those years.
We certainly remember my mother saying to you, Ariana, let it go. I know. That was the moment when I realized, okay, maybe I do have to let it go. But what I mostly wanted for you, because I loved it for me, you're right, because clearly marriage didn't work for me. It's...
And he got divorced after 11 years. Right, so who wins this game? But what worked for me, despite all the pain that came with it, was having children. I remember...
After a dinner, I said, Bill, you've got to come and see my children asleep. You'll see how adorable they are. I took you to their bedrooms, and you said, oh, my God, they look like drunken sailors. That's right. So I failed completely, both on the wife front and the children front. I didn't like children when I was a child.
You know, I just, so it's like, I just feel like people project that very forcefully. Like you have to fit into this template of what makes people happy. And I just feel like now that I'm, you know, 45, I can look back and say to you. You were right and I was wrong. I don't want to put it that brusquely, but I know me. People know themselves.
And, you know, no matter how much you want them to be happy from the things that make you happy, that's not what makes me happy. And of all people, I feel like you should know that because you're seen as sort of like this, you know, what do you call the chameleon? You know, we first knew you as this Republican Lady Macbeth.
Speaking of the bad... I don't know why Lady Macbeth, because I was this kind of old-fashioned Republican who was a pro-choice Republican, pro-gay rights and pro-gun control. I mean, where are these Republicans now? Lady Macbeth in the sense of... I don't know what Lady Macbeth's politics were, but Lady Macbeth was the woman behind the man...
You were seen as the woman behind Michael Huffington, the brains of him. He was this guy who had money, so he was going to run for Senate in California.
What is this, 1994? Is that the year he ran? Okay, so that's right. 1993, when I first did Politically Incorrect. He was a congressman in Washington. A congressman, all right. And I remember I flew from Washington to New York to do the show. '94, he ran for Senate against Feinstein. And it seems unbelievable now that although he lost, he lost by a tiny percentage, like
1.5% or something, which seems incredible now when nobody can unseat Feinstein, even though she's... So he ran against Feinstein? Yeah. Who's still there? Well, he first ran for the Republican primary, won the Republican primary. No, she's still there. And then ran against Feinstein, who is still here. Right. And now people are... Even though she still hasn't said she won't run again. I think she did, but then she forgot. Not really, yeah. I mean...
Whenever that ageism issue comes up, of course, it's one of my pet peeves. But I always do make the point that it's a case by case. So if I'm defending somebody for the charge of ageism, I make that case. But I also, I think, would like to think anyway that I gain credibility by also seeding that case by case. There are people who do fucking get old. And it shows.
It's just not Joe Biden right now. Maybe it will. Maybe we're projecting on that. Maybe 86. How could he do it? He'll be 86 by his second term. You know, people there are people 86 who are completely there.
Completely. And can do everything. And even 96. So we're basing an individual on the odds, basically, and how other people treat themselves. I don't know. I just saw him walking back from Ukraine and Poland. He's very slender.
You know, I mean, he was always sort of gaffy and I just, I don't know. So, but Dianne Feinstein, yes, is definitely that case. It's a case of get off the stage because, yes, your marbles are somewhat scrambled. No, it is. You're right. It is case by case. I mean, I saw Norman Lear the other day. He's actually 100. And it's kind of amazing. Yeah.
His mental clarity. I mean, his hearing is not what it was, but for a hundred? It's just... Yeah, I was at dinner with him at Rob Reiner's only like a couple of years ago, and I don't even remember a hearing problem. It just was like another person at the table. There was no... I forgot his age. You know, I knew it, but, you know, because of the way he... It's about, like, the energy you project.
And he does not project an old energy. And it's not a dodderingness. It's not a faultingness. He doesn't forget things. I do, but it's the pot. It's not the egg. I promise.
But you know, because I come from Greece, as you know, the Saxons, Korea. No. You? Yes, I come from Greece. I was wondering what that funny talk of yours was all these years. Why does she talk so funny? Oh, my God. You think you know a person, and after 30 years, Greece. Greece. So in Greece, you know. Home of democracy. Actually, in Greece, and yogurt.
In Greece, you know, they revere old people. You know that. Most of the world does. Yeah. You know, Japan, Greece. India. India. A lot of the world. Anywhere but stupid America. South America. Everywhere. Indians. Everybody reveres old people because they get the most like intuitive thing to understand about life is that, yes, you're beautiful when you're young.
And you're wise when you're old. Now, of course, there are variations in that. There are ugly young people and there are stupid old people. And sometimes they combine to a person. You don't want to do it, that person. But in general, we get it that even if you're dumb when you're young, you just see the same patterns enough. That's what aging is. You've seen this movie before. So you don't walk down a completely dark corridor. You're actually walking with some light on.
helping you along the way. And so you make better decisions. But you also know what doesn't matter. That too, that's a decision. I think it's like you are, I mean, I'm 72 now. No, and from Greece. And from Greece. You know, you're finding out things about me. And I, during the pandemic, you know, I was sheltering in place in my home here.
And I went through the garage where I found all these old journals. And it was amazing seeing all my fears and worries as a young person. Right. And thinking all these fears and worries for things that largely never happened. And now there's this liberation that you don't have to look over your shoulder for approval. You're not constantly trying to make something happen. It's actually...
wouldn't want to be 30 again. I wouldn't. I say the same thing. I would if I had this brain in my body. But you can't. I know. But if I had to go back to the old brain, no, it would cause too much pain. And you had a lot of things to worry about when you were young. I mean, you were a poor black girl. Yes.
No, that's wrong. I'm sorry. I'm reading from notes. Wrong guess. I'm kidding. The idea that I would have notes on this show. I didn't have notes on real time, let alone this fucking thing. But you were poor, right? I was brought up, yes, in a one-bedroom apartment in Athens, Greece. Really? With my mother and sister. So in this capital.
- So you were not, that's why you're sophisticated, 'cause you weren't out in a farm somewhere with a goat. - No, I was in Athens. No, the best thing that happened to me in my life is my mom, because she, when I saw a picture of a magazine that had Cambridge University on the cover, something made me say to her,
I want to go there. Oh, right. And everybody I said that to said, don't be ridiculous. That is amazing. You don't speak English. Right. You don't have money. And it's hard for English girls to get into camp. Now you've got one out of those two. You're rich as fuck now. And so my mom said, let's find out what you can do. And I took my GCs at the British Council. And anyway, I got into camp. So how did you learn English? I bet you're watching rap videos.
Oh no, those are my girlfriends. I was a nerd. I was what they call in England a "blue stocking." I just started and started and started and I learned English. But when I went into Cambridge, I was ridiculed. You mean by yourself? They didn't teach you at school? No, at school, but I went to the British Council. I took special classes. But they did teach English in the Greek schools? No, they taught French.
So you had to learn English on your own? French is my first language. Oh, really? And I have a very good French accent, better than English accent. I honestly never knew you spoke French. Yes. Wow. You speak French. Or maybe I did and I forgot. I blame the pot. But I probably did know that.
Well, so yeah, right. And I'm trying to think of whose story yours parallels. I mean, I'm sure there's a list of people who like started with so little, with every odd against them and still made it all the way to where they were thinking of going and then beyond. I don't think you thought you'd be this rich, right? Well, I definitely didn't think that I would be
running a media company like the Huffington Post. I wouldn't think I would be blogging when I was in Greece or that I would be leaving the Huffington Post to launch Thrive, which I think, you know, it's like dealing with one of the coolest challenges. How do we help people change behavior so that they are healthier and live longer and better? No, I definitely did not think of this. Well, I know one way. Accepting them what they say makes them happy. Okay.
Okay, okay. I lost that one. This is one of my biggest failures because I did try. But listen, you... I should write a Thrive piece on that subject. Great. Would that make you happy? Yes. It would make me so happy. Would that be a good birthday present for you in July? Yes, do you remember that your birthday presents to me used to be to write a blog for the Huffington Post? Yes, right. I do. You said, happy birthday, here's your blog. Right.
Yes, oh, the era when a blog was a gift. Oh, boy. It was a gift. A blog and a blurb. You've blurbed every book I wrote in the last 30 years, and it's a lot of them. Don't worry. I stopped writing books. You're off the hook. Really? Yeah.
You'll never write another book? I'm done. You know what? I came to the same conclusion. You did. Not that I wrote a lot of books. You did. I wrote one real novel, which is still very funny. I still think it's a good piece of work, although I was 32 when I started.
finished it, I would do things differently, I think. But OK, a few things. But I have occasion to go back and read it for one reason or other or parts of it sometimes. And it really still makes me laugh because I forget what I wrote. And so then I'm laughing at it like a fan.
So I think I really did a good job on that. And then I wrote one after 9-11, that picture book that was going on at a Broadway show. It's about the World War II posters transposed to the war on terror poster.
Yeah, I mean, that kind of worked too. But those are really, then there was two books that are like new rules, but that was just material from the show. So I'm not a, you know, I was never a big lover of putting out a book. But especially now when reading is just such a lost art, I just feel like so much effort goes into putting out a book, selling it. And I mean, a novel, not that I would write another novel, but that would be what would be fun for me to write.
Like if a novel sells 50,000 copies, it's a huge hit. 50,000 in a country of 300 million people, children. Well, if you look at the English speaking world, it's even more millions. Right. I mean, people, but especially in America, and I guess it's the world now, but people don't read, they scroll, they scroll. Well, our attention has been hijacked. I mean, you know, you and I agree of,
on the impact of social media and technology and what's happened to our attention span, which is now shorter than that of the goldfish. Did you know that? What's this? Our attention span is shorter than that of the goldfish. I'm sorry, I wasn't listening.
No, well, how do they measure this? Oh my God, very clearly, very scientifically. I know they can do it with us, but how do they get it from the goldfish? Okay, here's another stat that I think you're going to like more. This was a study by Harvard and the University of Virginia. They put people into a room
And they told them for 15 minutes, you can be here alone without any of your devices or you can get electric shock. And 67% of men chose electric shock. Men? Men. 25% of women. They're wiser sex.
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Did you know HBO Max had podcasts? I'm on my podcast talking about the podcast on my network. Is this what Zuckerberg means by meta?
Now go even deeper inside your favorite shows with audio companions of some of the most groundbreaking and award-winning shows on television. The Last of Us is an original series from HBO based on the critically acclaimed video game of the same name. And every week you can join Troy Baker, who plays Joel in the video game, as he breaks down episodes of the TV series with showrunners Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann.
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Yes, that was the first show. Right. That's what brought you to where you are. You were like a one issue candidate on Prozac. Did you have a book on that? No. OK, but and you were right. And now it's social media. It's probably Prozac, too. But like things didn't get better. They got worse for kids as far as like poison things in their mind.
Because, again, I don't think that the Prozac went away. I just think it's augmented with more things that fuck up their heads. Absolutely. And it's gotten worse and worse since my daughters were teenagers and they dealt with a lot of problems. But now it would have been worse because it's the comparisons, the likes. Likes, yes.
That's an evil thing because the way it's used. I mean, it's funny. I did this editorial on Valentine's Day about how the phone brought out and like dating on the phone brought out the worst in men because how could it not? You know, if you said to a man before this era, you could have a thing in your hand that
where you never have to go up to a girl and there's an endless supply you can look over and it's a numbers game. You try to connect with 20 of them and two of them are going to say hello. I mean, we used to do that in a bar or try to. So it brought out the worst in men, being lazy and horny and not sincere. But it brought out the mean girl, that fucking phone, in girls.
One of our first issues on Politically Incorrect was called Girls Hate Each Other. You're not supposed to say that, but they do. I don't think they hate each other, but they compete. Well, which winds up as hate? Well, you can compete without hate. If a guy walks in the room, I don't notice. Whereas if another woman walks in the room, it's like, who's she? Who's she thinking? Oh, she thinks that's a great laugh. You know what I mean? Like there's this immediate...
Hate is, you know, we're making comedy here. So do all women hate each other? Of course not. But there is an immediate suspicion and wariness very often among women that just men are just, we're just oblivious. Like it's a guy who cares.
I don't want to fuck him. So I don't want to know him. I got friends. It's like, I don't know. It's just a guy. We don't, he's of no relevance to me at all. You know, that's how guys think. Well, I don't think that's how all guys think. I think that's how you think because you're successful. You have gotten wherever you wanted to go. So if men are on the make, they're more competitive. If I see a guy, when I was 20, if I saw a guy...
And I don't know who he is. I'm not trying to know who he is. He's nothing to me. I'm not jealous of him. There's no competition. Just get out of the way. You're blocking that girl I'm trying to look at. You know what I mean? That's all it is. But I feel like with women, there is an immediate...
noticing and sizing up and, you know, is she going to be a trap? But hugely magnified by social media. And it makes everything worse. Yes, much, much worse. They really, I mean, this girl who killed herself in New Jersey a couple of weeks ago, so tragic. And look, I think in general, parents...
do a shit job these days of instilling in their kids a sense of, you need to be made of sterner stuff, you know, just in general, that general note. Yes. That's never what they teach kids. It's just like, you know, how can we bulldoze, they call them bulldozer parents, you know, how can we bulldoze all obstacles, all obstacles away from you before you get there? And
But I agree that this social media stuff can drive, I can see how it could have driven me to suicide. Because at least in school, if you are bullied, you go home and you can shut that off. Here you get no break. The phone follows you everywhere. And it follows you forever in life.
Something you did in eighth grade. You know, I remember when I was going off to college thinking, this is awesome. I can reinvent myself. Nobody knows me in Ithaca, New York. I am completely new to Cornell. Blank slate. I can be exactly a blank slate. I can be James Bond now. And there was one kid from my high school class who was also going to Cornell.
Tried to kill him. After I did that, I just felt like this. And of course, it was so stupid. Like in two months, I became James Bond? No. I was the same fucking clueless loser dork I was in high school.
inept with women and just, you know, just young and dumb. And Cornell soon found the same person that I was in high school. But with the phone following you, you know, anything you tweeted, and they'll go back to eighth grade to get people.
They are... Well, that's something that we have to change. I think it's changing a little. You know, the idea that we are going to be judged by the worst thing in our lives. Yes. Especially this whole idea of the content collapse, that it doesn't matter what else you've done. You're going to be judged by this thing.
as though this was the first thing you've done on the subject. I mean, that for me is the worst. It's actually fundamentally against everything that civilization is about, which is progressing, growing, becoming better. You know, it's like the idea now is that there is this kind of frozen ideal, arrested development. And it's something which I know you've
said so much against, but right now there is a moment when things can shift. I'm optimistic about it. But we can't just let it continue. Well, I hope you're right, but
The demarcation between when it went bad from the frying pan to the fire is, Jonathan Haidt says, 2015. That's the beginning of Gen Z. It's maybe even a little before that, but it's also Trump announcing for president drove people insane for good reason. But around then, there was a whole generation that only ever had the phone.
The smartphone comes out, I think, in 2009. So by 2015, if you're a 14-year-old, you have a phone. You've never really known adolescence without this element in it. And we thought Gen Z was going to be a backlash against the millennials, but it turned out they just did it even more. I mean, the fragility, the oversensitivity, the insanity.
just got crazy. The millennials seem sane, I guess, like all generations do as you get older, like they get wiser and people get nuttier. And I mean, it's Gen Z. And they feud now with the millennials. Every generation does this, except Gen X. Nobody ever fights with Gen X. What's up with that? Why did they get such a complete pass? But I think there's kind of a lack of
sense of history. And if you think of it, I mean, you and I have different views on spirituality. But spirituality. Oh, spirituality. Okay, here it is. I'm bringing it up. First wives and children, then spirituality. Well, just tell me,
Here, I'll go along with anything if you could just define it. And I know you've written whole books about it. I read The Fourth Instinct. I know, which is amazing. I think only another three people have read it. But, you know, it was a long time ago. Okay, The Fourth Instinct. Let's define it. Let's define it for a minute. So most behavioral psychologists and sociologists, et cetera, talk about three instincts, right? Survival, sex, and death.
and status/power, etc. And if you can't really fully account for human behavior historically, you can't account for Gentiles risking their lives to save Jews, you can't account for acts of altruism, you can't account for acts of love and empathy
without what I call the fourth instinct. I didn't even want to call it the spiritual instinct. I see. You know, I just wanted to say there is an instinct that... Like compassion. Yeah, that transcends our first three instincts, which are all about ourselves and doing our lives. Now it's coming back to me. That's it. So I deliberately didn't...
Call it spiritual instinct. Because it doesn't matter what the hell you call it. But then why do we use that word? It doesn't matter. The point is that I wanted to reach people like you, which I failed to do. But I wanted to reach intelligent people who turned against organized religion, which completely understand, and threw the baby out with the bathwater. I totally...
could get on this page. And I think I'm already, no, I think I'm already there in the sense that I also believe there is something past those first three. You know, humans do cooperate.
Now, you can make the case that they're doing that for survival. I've heard that people have studied that and come up with that conclusion. It actually helps us to survive, of course. And we know it often does, to cooperate. And that's what that book Sapiens is so great about explaining, is that chimps can only cooperate up to like 80 of them because they don't have basically lies, lies and myths about
And when you get stories, so you can get, you know, Catholicism, you get a billion people to believe the same story, you can get them to do anything, like attack Jerusalem and take it away from the invaders. Stuff like that, that you couldn't get chimps to do, which I think says a lot about for the chimps. Let's just talk about how, what is at the heart of every tradition that is like a
didn't become organized religion, but it's just like a fundamental tradition around redemption and forgiveness and things that if we can recover them, it's going to be much easier to get away from this insane cancel culture. You know, you did something when you were 18, therefore you are forever a pariah to be ostracized. But at the heart of every tradition,
whether it's Zen or Buddhism or the esoteric Christian traditions or Taoism or anything, is the same belief that we all have this place of strength, wisdom in us and that most of the time we don't live there because we're very fallible human beings. Most of us have strength and wisdom.
inside us as a birthright. We don't tap into it and we don't live from that place, but we have access to that place. But in order to get there... I'm not sure everybody has strength and wisdom.
I got to say, and no insult to anybody in particular, but I just think there's a lot of people out there who don't have a hell of a lot of strength. And that's probably most of us, because if you put us under pressure, you know, the plane that crashed and then they ate each other. But also, OK, there are plenty of examples like that, but there are also plenty of examples where...
something really bad happens and people come up, you know when they say it brought the best out in them. - Yes, yes absolutely. - Something comes out that you know, oh my God, I can't believe this person is acting like that. - Exactly. - So that's what I mean. - There is absolutely in humans the capacity to be heroic. - And to actually exceed anything we'd ever seen from them before. - I just don't think it's all of us. That's what I'm saying.
It's just, it's not across the board and neither is wisdom. I mean, come on. - But wisdom, okay, if you think of wisdom in terms of the possibility for redemption, like that's what I think connects us to this moment. Like let's look at people and whatever wrongdoing they did. I mean, can we give them the chance to redeem themselves? Once they accept and acknowledge their own doing, atone for it, but if we,
If we foreclose the possibility of redemption and growth, then we're really basically giving up on our humanity. So this is one of my big gripes. I know, and you've done an amazing job on that. No, I love it. I can't tell you how happy it makes me to hear you pile on the woke bullshit, which this is, as you are. And if you don't know that's what you're doing, you are. Yeah, but I want to do it from...
also a place of our fundamental humanity. If we give that up, we give up our humanity. Yeah, we're not the ones being inhumane. It's these mean girls. It's the mean girls. It's a mean girl culture. And what is so galling so much is like, you know, they want to think of themselves as warriors, social justice warriors, and they're just fucking sitting home typing.
They're not really doing anything. And really, it's not about making any lives better, black lives or whatever lives. They don't really do anything that does that. They just want to catch people who they can feel morally superior to. Well, that's really the thing. We only have so much energy. And if that energy is spent judging and...
and finding fault with everything, canceling and ostracizing. What's happening to all the incredible crises we're facing? And that reminds me, do you remember in 2000, I organized the Shadow Convention? I was there in Philadelphia. No, and in Los Angeles.
You spoke here. We had one in Philadelphia for the Republican, during the Republican convention, one in Los Angeles. And the three issues that the shadow conventions were designed to address that neither political party we believe was really addressing. Remember what they were? They were the failed war on drugs.
That was my specialty, what I was speaking on. No, but you didn't speak on that. You spoke on the second, which was campaign finance reform. Oh, yeah. And the third was growing inequalities. And where are we? Campaign finance reform, nobody's even thinking about it. It's not even on the radar. No, no, just got killed. Growing inequalities have gotten infinitely worse.
Well, mostly because of you. No, mostly because of you. Oh, please. If I had your money, I'd throw mine away. Mostly because of you flying on private planes. Oh, did you see that? That was...
I didn't put your picture in that montage, but I could have because that was my point. I can stand being a bad environmentalist because we all really are. I cannot stand being a hypocrite. And every single person who can fly in a private jet, including you, including George Clooney and everybody else, Leonardo DiCaprio, everybody. And I'm a big admirer of a lot of these people. Ben Affleck. I love these people. But we all do it.
It's irresistible. And so that's, again, something that looks bad to someone who's in the middle or leaning right when lefties are fucking hypocrites. So I just really wanted to make that case. And we all do it on whatever our level is. I mean, if you drive a car to work, but you could take the bus, you're just doing it on a budget. I'm doing it like a baller. Eat that, bitches.
No, you know, I know. It's so funny. Are you driving a Tesla? Yeah. I loved what you did about the people who are giving up driving a Tesla. And you had this picture of Hitler with a Volkswagen. Yeah, I know Elon liked that. Well, of course.
But, you know, I mean, listen, Elon is a genius, but he doesn't understand how human energy works. What do you mean? Which is kind of on my topic of how can we be our most productive selves. If you sleep in the office on a bean bag, you're not going to be your most productive, creative self the next day. Again, I think you're projecting a little.
- No, it's science. - I really do because like people, well it's science that you get the right amount of sleep, that's science. But there's also variations in the human. - Yes. - Some great variations. Not often, mostly we do need-- - One and a half percent of the population has a genetic mutation and they don't need a lot of sleep.
Elon may be one of them. That's probably him. Elon may be one of them. But the problem is- Then maybe the beanbag chair brings him back to his childhood and he sleeps like a baby in it. Okay, perfect. But he's also expecting his employees to do that. And not all of them have a genetic mutation. I don't think he's expecting them to go that far. He's expecting them to commit to- Well, he's expecting them to be quote unquote hardcore. If we're talking about Elon Musk and Twitter, like there's-
I'm going to like him. I don't care who fucking knows. No, I like him too. Yeah, I'm sure. And there's two things we disagree on. Going to Mars, I think, is incredibly stupid. And it's been great comedy fodder for me. And also his idea that we need to increase the population seems just completely insane. But, you know, people can disagree. And someday I'll talk to him about those things and he'll tell me his side of the story. But, you know, anyway. But
On Twitter, I think he is doing a very selfless thing. I think he is doing basically kind of what Edward Snowden did, because he surely didn't need this headache. But if you're going to kill wokeness, I'm talking about the side of wokeness that is obnoxious and probably could take down the entire Democratic Party. If you're going to drive a stake through that, the shit we were just talking about, the heart of it is Twitter.
You've got to cut, you've got to, that is the place where all the canceling and the hating is rampant. But look at what he did. Okay, but I'm just saying that. He removed from Twitter journalists who disagreed with him. Secondary point. My point, the view from 30,000 feet point is that Twitter needed to be taken over. It wasn't going to go away. And it was this, it's this thing that people use to,
for hate. I mean, I remember when it was first out. I loved it because it was a place you could be irreverent. And then it quickly became anything I'd want to say on Twitter, I can't say on Twitter. That was a terrible place for a free speech platform to go. And it's a terrible place for a country that supposedly believes in free speech to be. He wasn't wrong that it's a kind of a town square. You've got to be able to speak in the town square.
So has he done it right? No, in many ways. Yes, he did not stick the landing and he's going to make fuck-ups along the way. And yeah, I mean, if you want to go through that chapter and verse, it bores me. And I just think
He hasn't done so much horrible that I don't think he can pull this thing out and make Twitter something completely different. And it hasn't gone away. I remember when he first took over, it was, oh, Twitter's going to fold, fold. It's fine. He's right. It's like people, there's not going to be a... It just is a kind of an establishment thing now. But if the whole point is free speech, and then you...
basically punish Barry Wise
because she disagreed with him. It's not like an esoteric little point I'm making. It's fundamental to what he claimed to be doing with Twitter. Anyway, actually, speaking of being... Absolutely, he has stumbled along the way and sometimes been his own worst enemy. But I don't feel like it ever comes out of a place of terrible maliciousness
He's an impulsive genius. No, I'm not saying at all. He's an impulsive genius kind of guy. You know, it's not going to, you know, love travels on a gravel road. Speaking of which. Yes, speaking of which. You mentioned before your marriage. And I remember one time you saying to me, like, I don't know, when was you divorced?
Oh my God, I remember so well. I divorced in 1997. And I moved from Washington to LA for my divorce, my home that you've been to many times. The furniture that I've christened. The furniture that you've christened. And the day my divorce became final, I literally...
got the news, and went to do Politically Incorrect. Wow. That day, I mean, surrounded by boxes and things that hadn't been unpacked. And then the next month, I had a Thanksgiving at home, and you came. You went to the children's table, and you sat down, and you said to my eight and six-year-old, you said, so, okay, are you ready now for your mom to start dating? I did. Yeah.
Well, you know, you can't shield the kids too much. That's my point. You wanted them to be resilient. What did they say? They cried. You made my children cry. I'm sorry. But they came out better for it, didn't they? But I remember you saying to me, I asked you, like, you must have been right around this time, could have been that day, like,
Are you like really broken up and emotional? Are you a wreck? And you said to me, no, the hard part is the two years before this when you're trying to make it work. Yes. And I just thought, wow, that is, you remember that? Yes. And I remember just thinking, wow, that is exactly why I never did that. And for some people it's 10 years. For some people it's 20 years. For some people it's forever. Yeah. Yeah.
Because it's a codependence and they can't break it. I mean, I know what it's like to be that way with someone where you're not happy, but you know you're like in this exquisite pain if you break up or if you're apart and you're trying to get them back. It's like the worst place to be, I've found, psychologically in life. I mean, I've had physical pain. Among the mental pains, there's no pain like desperately wanting another person
And it's not like anything else in life because it has a choice. And if you turn a woman off, there's a key in the back. It's like a pilot light. If the pilot light goes off, you can't relight it. I mean, you can get them back from some shit you do. And then sometimes you just turn the key all the way and the pilot light goes out. And you can't. And you kind of know that. And
Like we were saying about I would never go back to 30. Just to avoid that kind of thing. That's the kind of thing that happens around 30. But then you also began to be much more self-aware. I remember you telling me many times that there is nothing left in the bottle. No, no. You almost got it right. No, you said there is a little bit left in the bottle. No, no, no. Okay. How is it? There's...
When you meet somebody, the sex god in heaven or Mount Olympus, wherever the sex god is, knows there are a certain number of fucks in that can. Yes. It might be 5,000. It might be five. I don't know if it's ever going to be unlimited, but if you spread it out enough, it could be. And that's the point. It's how you spread it out. If it's 5,000, it could last forever. But at a certain point...
There's nothing left in the bottle. You're hitting the bottom of that can. Come on. I know there's one more in there. Come on. That's what... And I stand by that. I don't think I was wrong about that one. But you know what is great? I don't think you hold any bitterness towards anyone you've been with. Am I right? No, I'm bitter at myself for a couple because, like...
I, like, why did I enter into that relationship wasn't very wise of me kind of thing. But not at them.
I don't attract bad people like women. I always wanted to. I always wanted to attract the bad girl, you know, the slutty one who'd be easy and fuck me right away. No, that's not who I attracted. Basically nice people. I guess opposites attract. So I never, that was not really a thing. But I think, you know, it's so amazing if you think of it.
not to be carrying bitterness and resentment. So many people have... And I don't think a lot of people are resentful of me either. I mean, I'm pretty good friends with all my exes. But that is such a gift. I mean, especially if you look at the science of health.
resentment and bitterness and not being able to forgive. Right. You know, they affect your immune system. Right. They increase your stress levels. Of course. I mean, there's a new study that came out that if you're incapable of forgiving, it increases your cholesterol levels. I mean, this connection, I'm fascinated by. Well, cholesterol is not a bad thing.
You need cholesterol to live. Well, it's good for your brain. It's good for, I mean, it's basically what the body repairs itself with. You need cholesterol. Yes, and your brain. It's just a question of... Obviously too much, but it's like... If you have a lot of inflammation, that's what I mean. Right, inflammation. These emotions create inflammation. Yes, yes.
Well, there's something, sister, we definitely are completely on the same- The three fates. The same? The three fates of your health. Sugar, sleep, stress. Stress, yeah. It's the first thing I said on the first show, the last show before we all went inside in 2020, March of 2020. The last show we did was March 13th. After that, we were-
no show and then we did it from here. Yes. Oh, Christ. And I remember I said we had a doctor on and I said, and I didn't think she really was great on the subject. And I said, everybody will be okay if you just take mind the three S's. Yes. Sleep, stress, sugar.
And of course, no one listened to me, as no one ever does. And the people who were lauded as the great leaders of our medical establishment during the pandemic, they never said something like that. I never heard Dr. Fauci say something about sugar.
or sleep, or maybe you shouldn't be putting on weight during a pandemic which kills overwhelmingly obese people. But this is an ongoing issue. It's not an issue that ends with a pandemic because sugar, stress, and sleep deprivation affect every disease.
They affect cancer. They affect, obviously, diabetes. But they affect every disease. And here's what I love about the work I'm doing now is that with micro steps, you can begin changing things.
You know, it doesn't have to be big New Year resolutions. I'm going to give up sugar forever immediately or sleep for eight hours. It's just like, what are the little micro steps you can do every day that become healthier habits? And we've seen amazing success with people when they start on the journey, and that's
I'm such an evangelist about that. Well, I'd like to masturbate more. Is there a micro step program I can get on? I really think you're an expert. I enjoy it. I feel it relaxes me. And yet sometimes I get to the end of the day and I've only done it three or four times. You're not prioritizing. I'm not prioritizing. I think the other thing is that you can habit stack.
Maybe there is a habit you have. We all need a hobby. You can habit stack that. Okay. But, you know, I always wondered about that divorce because, like...
I mean, he's gay, right? He came out as gay. He came out as gay. Yes. And I'm fascinated by the... It's a common... Well, yeah, more common than you'd think. I can think of three or four right off the top of my head. Very successful men. I don't think it's a secret that the head of my agency, I think both heads of the agency, very successful, great guys. But they were...
heterosexual and children and then they I hope I'm not saying this out of school if that is we should cut it out but isn't Fareed Zakaria or is that no she's public about it is that public okay another one had a family had a wife had a kid I think this is your husband and I just I don't get it now I
I'm not saying I'm the machoest guy in the world, but I cannot understand this on any level how you can like... I was either going to take up skeet shooting or guys. I... So...
But there is a continuum, I'm told, and you are at the extreme. And you cannot imagine. And there are people who also think it depends on how you are brought up. So that's the explanation is it's a spectrum. It's a spectrum. And it is a spectrum. But it's also like when you are brought up, when being gay may have been inconceivable.
And so any feelings you had were completely suppressed. And then at some point it became more and more considerable. Here's the difference between liberal and woke.
Liberals, I think, I still consider myself old school liberal mostly, believe there is a spectrum of sexuality. I think a conservative would say, "No, there's men and women and you're either a heifer or a hawk," whatever the terms for animals. "You're either a sow or a bull." I don't know animals. I was not raised on a farm, but you get the point. But a liberal says, "No, of course there is a spectrum."
Woke takes you 10 subway stops too far to every child that is born is jump ball. A penis, well, a penis is one indicator of something. It could possibly be a male, but I mean, you know.
As opposed to, you know what, the default setting is generally penis male. Okay? So we accept that maybe there's a mix up at the factory once in a while. And, you know, this is not going to be how it's going to come out. Or the kid is gay, you know, which is a variation, but still a male. So can we wait on this as opposed to like having, making people at medical schools apologize for saying the word woman? Yeah.
You know, stuff like that. That is, I mean... I mean, you see how they're like... I mean, I have my, you know, when... I mean, I'm a grandma, right? I have a five-month-old grandchild. I do know that. When my... I bet you they're sleeping like sailors, too. LAUGHTER
Okay, wait until I show you a picture. Your heart will melt. I love to see babies. Your heart will melt. There's nothing I love more than seeing babies because they all look so different. Wait until you see them. And so attractive. Boy, if one thing babies are, it's different from each other and attractive. But the idea is... Bring it on. Do you have slides?
You will watch a 30-minute reel, but the fact that you would call somebody a birthing person instead of a mother. Is that your phone? Do you have a phone here? Is that my phone that hasn't been turned off? It's not yours, right? Does that sound like your phone? You hear that, right? Yes. Okay, good. I was going crazy. No, no, you're not. You're not hearing voices. It's done.
Okay. If it is my phone, you can check. We've got to stop in five minutes anyway. It's funny because the only reason I'm rushing is it's been an hour because I want to make you dinner. Yes, I know. I want you to make my dinner. I made my dinner at 8 o'clock for you so that you can arrive by 8.30. I'm trying. I'm doing my best. So I have 8 to 8.30 drinks and then you arrive. We'll wait until you arrive.
We have a great Greek dinner. I didn't cook it, don't worry. I didn't think you, with all your billions, cooked your own dinner. Oh, you were slaving over the stove. No, no, it's not about a matter of money. It's a matter of I've never learned to cook. You know, one of the things I believe is that there are many things you don't have to do.
I cook. Or learn to ski. By the way, cooking, as far as like a trait I ever gave a shit about in a woman, is at the very bottom of the list. In fact, I find it a negative because I don't want someone who can cook. I'll get fat.
will organize the relationship around food instead of sex, which is always a bad idea. So like I could, whereas when I was a kid, they would say the way to a man's heart is through his stomach. I mean, it was like, because this is like before Boston Market, you know, like when, if a guy was going to get food, right, the woman had to make it because of course he was incapable of making food. So like, it was like a big, important selling point in who,
you made it with. Whereas I always thought, who, what do I care if you can cook? Well, first of all, we're eating in restaurants. We're eating in restaurants. I have my own food at home. I have food that I can make a scrambled egg and toast. Is that it? You know, what? That's all you can make? No, no. I can make basic things. And, you know, I mean, I'm not a foodie.
I always thought food was the enemy of sex. So that was always why it had to take second place. And, you know, that takes some reorganizing of your life because the way people live is
And it's stupid. They have the food first. And the sex after. Which is horrible. Your breath stinks. The blood is in the wrong place. You know, it's just a terrible order of things. But, you know, it's very hard to convince a girl on the first date. You know, we should have the sex first. And then we'll go to dinner. I made a reservation for 11.30 at the restaurant.
But you know what? What? We can't live without mentioning something that I think the world has forgotten. Oh, yeah, my plugs. Which is that you were the first person to be canceled after 9-11. People remember.
But do people remember what happened to the guy who was responsible, the Texas radio jock? Do you know what happened to him? You just said we should forget and live on. No, no, no, no, just for fun. Do you know what happened to him? Did you ever find out? Dinesh D'Souza? No, Dan Patrick. Who's Dan? Remember? I love that. I love that. Who's that? The guy, you know, this whole...
Let's cancel Bill Maher. Let's cancel politically incorrect things. Started with this Houston, Texas radio show host. Yes, I remember, yes. Do you know who he is now? No, who? Lieutenant Governor of Texas. Oh, really? Really. He's the Lieutenant Governor of Texas? Yes. I just didn't want to leave without giving you that information. I guess that proves that I did not stick pins in his voodoo doll. Yeah.
Because I didn't even know the name. I remember Houston. And I remember thinking, oh, yeah, that guy, I think he was actually mad at me at something else even more. And he used this as an opportunity, you know.
But the great thing, it all led to something better. Real time on HBO. And now on CNN. And now Club Random. It's endless. Your media empire. You're the media empire. Your media empire is without end. I mean, I remember that period when you were running for governor and starting the Huffington Post. No, Huffington Post was 2005, a couple of years later. Well, that period, I say. Yeah. Right.
So it just, oh my God. I mean, not that you were doing bad before that, but yeah, you had quite a third act. And you know, speaking of aging, when we think that we have to do everything before we're 30, you know, 30 under 30, 20 under 20, I launched the Huffington Post at 55. Right. I launched Thrive Global at 66. Right.
I love to say that so that people don't have that sense of urgency that if everything is not done by 30. And just the idea, I mean, I hear it all the time from stupid millennials. And maybe I was the same way when I was that age about older people. But they just seem to have this idea that you're just going to be automatically kind of decrepit.
at post-60 or something. If you don't sleep, if you're stressed, if you eat too much sugar. Yes, and you can be. But you can also be pretty much exactly who you always were. I mean, nobody's going to be as cute as they were. No. You can't stop that. But pretty much everything else-- now, there is going to be a day will come, and we're all going to be Dianne Feinstein.
don't say it's happening until it's actually happening. Anyway. Okay. I'll be in Ballet's Lake Tahoe Saturday, March 11th. If I was decrepit, could I do that? And then fucking the next night I'm at the Golden Gate Theater in San Francisco. Oh, I haven't been there in a while. I can't wait for that. Saturday, April 1st, Paramount Theater, Seattle. Love Seattle. And Portland, of course. Always that great one-two punch. The Sunday, April 2nd, Arlene Schnitzer Hall show. Okay. Do you have anything to plug for?
No, I just want to... Thrive is thriving. Thrive is thriving. I just want to...
Say how happy I am to be here with you 30 years after we met. Oh, my God. 30 years of friendship that I treasure. I'm sorry I pushed you to get married. I was fucking with you. Wait, wait, wait. One more thing. Sit back. I have one more thing to tell you. Speaking of being such great friends in that moment,
Oh, it was about Travis, the Uber dude. Yes. And you're in it as played by Uma Thurman. Yes. I told you this, right? Okay, so I'm waiting for your arrival because I'm like, ooh, Uma Thurman playing Ariana? I have got to see this. And the first line she has is he's at a bar and he's like, something bad happened. He fucked up and he's looking down. And you walk over. I mean, Uma, as you...
Travis, the bad boy of Silicon Valley. And then he's like, Ariana, please, I had a bad day. And he goes, oh, bad day. I've had to have lunch with Pat Buchanan and Bill Maher.
As if you had to. I mean, it was both stupid, incredibly wrong, somewhat insulting. Something I would never have said. But also laugh out loud funny. That they thought that that was your attitude toward me. You've had to have lunch. I hope you haven't ever had to. Oh my God, never. And what I love is that when we have, we normally have breakfast at 1 p.m. Yes, we are two people who can have breakfast at any hour. That's true. Yes.
Your time is done. Thank you. I'll see you very soon. Yeah, I could do that. I could do it for three hours.