#119: Born as a Girl, Chinese Higher Education System, Stereotypes and Migrant Entrepreneurship with Royal Reed
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Kia ora, ni hao and hello. Welcome to the Cheery Journal podcast. I'm your host, Camille Yang. My guest today is Royal Reed.

Royal has 20 years of experience in the New Zealand legal profession. She is also well respected in the Chinese community as a TV and radio presenter and for her legal education programs. In today's show, we talk about born as a girl in traditional Chinese family, Chinese higher education system, stereotypes and migrant entrepreneurship. I hope you enjoy this episode.

Welcome to the show, Royal. This is your, I think it's the fourth or fifth time you are attending my show. But before we did a couple of episodes in Chinese and my listeners, they learn a lot and benefit a lot from your experience. So I think today we'll share your story in English as well. Wow, that's really cool. Let's start from the very beginning. Mm.

I read your memoir. You wrote it during the lockdown. It resonates me in so many ways. And first of all, I just want to discuss with you about being a girl born in a traditional Chinese family. Yes. In the traditional Chinese family, people may value boys more than girls. So what was your childhood like? Yes. Unfortunately, the memory of growing up as a girl was

in Taiwan was a little bit of a funny struggle I have fallen up to realize slowly as I gain more and more understandings, even from very young age, that apparently we didn't matter. It is the boys that eventually that everyone count on, and it's the boys that people really feel that need to be most importantly respected

developed or most focused in supporting them to develop many talents and many skills. And girls are just tagalongs and it's best if they could also do well without much time and effort or hope invested in us. And I don't know if I was just rebellious or too rebellious for my type. I used to always think, seriously? Yeah.

Why is it unfair? Well, why is it so different? And I had a very distinct and painful memory growing up that around the Chinese New Year's, I grew up in a family of, with my brother being the only grandson and all the rest of us are girl cousins. And I remember he would be given...

All the latest Transformers, they were too expensive to be true, that he won't even play with for more than five minutes. And all of us girls would just get like a really cheap plastic toy from a night market, an equivalent for our Chinese New Year treats. Of course, we all get red packets for some cash gifts as Chinese people do that.

And then I would also very quick to notice that my red packet was very symbolically thin, whereas my brother's would be maxed out that the envelope almost ripped because it's so full of cash. And all these comparisons growing up made me realize there is a really hopeless bias that we have.

take for granted in our culture as a Chinese family. And I didn't have a reason why, apart from the fact

that he was the youngest in our family. But then I have friends that have eldest brother in the family that get the same privilege. And then we have those pretty much not the oldest or the youngest, but the middle son of other friends' family that also immediately attract the premium treatment. So I think growing up, we all slowly or gradually

quickly realized that we have a different standing. And our TV programs also very, very, very immediately and naturally teach us how this is what everyone thinks, and that's how you are supposed to think. I remember watching a TV program where there were seven sisters and a little brother, and every single girl in that family, their name, personal names,

were named by their parents to be referenced as, say for example, the older daughter would be called 昭弟. Oh, I see, yeah. 旺弟. We need a boy, yeah. 其弟, 来弟. So every name of the older girls is about reminding the parents that we are waiting for a boy. We are looking for a brother. So, I mean, imagine being named

And that is your purpose is just what? Prepare and wait for the next and it's better to be the brother. And that's why in a lot of Chinese family in my time when we grew up,

Many families will continue to keep having kids until they get a son. And if they get a son first, lucky for them. If they get a son second, then they stop. If they didn't get a son, they don't stop. That's why in that family on TV, they had eight siblings until they get the eighth little baby brother.

Yeah, that's so interesting. Just like you, I was very rebelling when I was young. And there was a tradition to worship your ancestor on the tube sweeping day, Qingmingjie. So they are not allowed girls to go to your ancestors' tube.

to worship your ancestor. Only boys are allowed. Really? Yeah. That's from my great, yeah, great grandfather side. Wow. Oh, that wouldn't be something I complain about. Yeah.

As a kid, I used to not like going to those things at all because I find them very daunting. Yeah, because you need to do it during the festival, Qingming Festival. So I was questioning when I was five or six years old, I said, why my male cousin, they can't go, why can't I go? I just say, I'll go. Then my father, he was very open-minded. So he said, okay, you can go. So I was the only girl among

all the boys. It's a very interesting experience. But I think nowadays it's probably getting better. Yeah. Well, I think because you guys grew up or now have families in China and for many years now you only have one child, right? I think that somehow, although it was a sad policy for family to be so restricted in their right to have however many they want, but I think it somehow accidentally fixed the problem. Yeah.

that you only prefer boys because if you only can have one and you have one girl, you will be so grateful and so happy that you will do everything for that only one. So suddenly gender became secondary, even though I know some family probably still feel gutted when they had girl because they felt, okay, legally we can't even have another one now. But I think because now everyone only has had one, so they start to treat their only child differently

as the most relevant because they have to. And sometimes then, therefore, we've seen a lot of girls grow up with the same investment in education and opportunities and respect and love.

which is pretty cool. That's great. Yeah, I think my dad, I know he prefer a boy, but he just raised me as a boy. I would say, yeah, he took me to play sports, play football and ask me to do all kind of dangerous things that girls not normally do. Climbing mountains or climbing the roof or doing archery. Yeah, all sorts of things. Wow. I think in my times,

It can't be disputed that most of our parents, including my own, were fairly educated and a lot of them are actually very advanced in education. So I don't think the bias is deliberate or even expected. But it's been centuries and centuries of this entitlement or this worldview that we grew up with.

So you almost are trained to know or trained to understand and trained to sympathize

that, oh, you will know as a daughter-in-law that if you have a son for the family, then you are doing what you're supposed to do. And if you didn't have a son for the family when you gave birth, then you are failing their expectation. So it's a default thinking, which is hopeless, actually, and it makes people feel really

depressed because you almost don't know why you feel so disappointed when you end up having a girl and it could be a completely healthy and lovely and pretty little girl but because in our culture we're trained to think well okay son is so much more important to have and son is so much more successful to have and son is so much more pleasing for everyone to know then suddenly daughter by default become a oh

oh, that's a shame. Oh, let's have another one. Oh, we can try again. And I think that is the hopeless bias that we have all lived with for generations. And when I had my babies on my own terms, I became very conscious to...

Just saying, oh, wow, you know, I'm not going to be thinking that having a son or having a daughter should be any different. Yeah, exactly. So your father...

went abroad to study and does that contribute to you like make the decision to make to New Zealand because my father used to study in Australia when he see the westernized education system he thought oh I need to send my daughter overseas what motivates you to move to New Zealand well I actually have a probably a slightly different situation

I understand that when my father had the opportunity to study in the States, it was because he came from a very modest family background. So he was...

on some sort of government scholarship. And that was when Taiwan was very, very focused on training the young people in the States to learn as much as possible. So he went and studied medicine there.

And in fact, his scholarship was so important to the government and his return was so important to the government that when he studied there, we as a family, I was a baby, I think, we as a family were bonded in Taiwan, which means we were not allowed to travel until he came back. Oh, I see.

So there was a real fear or concern that if we invest so much in these students who got scholarships to go abroad, we don't want them to stay in America and forget that they need to come back and help us fulfill these investments. So I remember it was really tough, mom and mom, because, you know, there would be a young couple with a young family and to have to live apart and studying medicine is a very long journey.

So it got really tough, I think. But when it came to my turn to consider where I should study next, I actually had a funny situation where I was training or wanting to be trained in Taiwan University to learn international politics. And I wanted to, at the time, to become a diplomat for Taiwan.

And it was really ironic that I was so naive, you know, even though I was, you know, passionate and inspired. And by the time I got to the third year of my degree, I realized it was going to be pretty pointless because we are so politically isolated or, in fact, not recognized. I will be...

a diplomat even if I'm selected and trained to be one, I'll be a diplomat under the disguise of some sort of cultural representative or some trade representative. That really annoyed me and I was not feeling very happy about that. But at the same time, I felt that it was a really nice opportunity

opportunity to be able to gain that ability in English and gain that comfort and confidence in English so that I could one day advocate or speak for my people in English when that need or that need is important to them or is simply a necessity.

And so when I came here, it was purely because I was a little bit frustrated with where I was at in my academic journey or my future career. So when I came here to study law, initially I thought, well, if I became confident enough to use English, even for a subject such as law, and have some groundings in the common law,

Surely it will come in handy one day, even if I came back and still tried for this diplomat path of career. But now, obviously, as you know, I only am a diplomat in my marriage and I don't do international relations. That's cool. So did you take the national...

colleague entrance examinations in Taiwan. Yes. Because I know it's very competitive. Oh, yes. I think in those days it was always a very competitive experience. And I think that comes back to that issue that we talked about at the beginning is everyone has so much expectation in their sons. And

And to be fair, not all the boys are destined to be academically excellent. Some of us are not strong in that way. But in Taiwan, we had this hopeless, hopeless culture that everyone must be academically relevant, successful, accomplished.

And we have this culture that if you didn't get into high school when you were 15, you didn't get to a good high school. We have this whole industry of cram schools. There's some boys that I know and grew up from my school who were pretty bad at studying and pretty not motivated and also probably really wasn't

wired to do so many subjects and do so much memorization they will go through crime schools again and again for years just to get into high school so by the time I finish high school senior high school this was they're still trying to get in a senior high school

And when I went to university, both times going to high school and university, I was lucky to get through first time. It was pretty pleasing results. I think as girls, it was not as hard for us. We seem to be very good at memorising details and we're much more committed to putting the time. And we just were better at listening to the teachers. And so when I got to university year one,

In the freshman year, I remember many of my contemporary that started in my course had been doing crime schools before they got in as my peers.

for a couple of years and some even more. Some of them came across like an older person or a mature student, not because they have done other things in life, but because they've been repeating the exams. And that was how competitive it is. And if you think about it, we already have a large population. And then you have so many people that are repeating the journey for the sake of getting a better place. So every year the pool of people trying for the same place is always expanding.

And it's pretty sad for the amount of competition that we live with. And it's also very sad for a lot of years to be wasted. A lot of these kids didn't fail to get a place, but they failed to get a place in the prestige ranking. So they were redoing it, not because they couldn't go to a high school or university, they were redoing it so that they could go to a prestige ranking school. And...

and really waste a lot of time and years for that to happen. And that's the same with many national exams, and it's not just finishing at uni level. I remember when I came to New Zealand in the middle of my degree, so after the sophomore year, I had classmates that obviously continue and finish the degree after I moved to New Zealand and start again in New Zealand.

When I finished my degree in New Zealand and finished my bar exam for becoming a lawyer, so that's five years later because I started the degree here from day one. Those of my contemporary in the Taiwanese law school that didn't delay because they didn't leave the system to go overseas, some of them are still trying for the bar exams after they graduated for three years in a row.

And I remember one really brilliant classmate who came from a really legal family, was many family members, old lawyers and judges, that when I have already set up my firm in New Zealand, which is so many years after I became a lawyer, he has just got his lawyer license.

So the professional exam and the national exam were just way too competitive for some. Yeah, exactly. I remember I was competing with 20 million people

to get into the college because I was born in the dragon year and everybody wants a dragon baby so in my year so many people was born on that year so you can imagine the competition during that year to go into the college only like 1 million people can get in yeah maybe less than that number of 500,000 and a lot of people they just try again next year or try again

The year after, do you think that's because, you know, a lot of Chinese people are very competitive. Do you think we can get this education system push us to be very competitive from early stage? Because we need to win. Otherwise, we don't have a chance to go into the prestige university. We won't have a good future.

Yeah, I think because we both come from very populated Asia, so I think the fact that we have to share opportunities with so many more that always want the same or similar opportunity make it an inherent stress and it also makes it an unavoidable survival mentality that if I don't compete or if I don't compete well...

I won't even get a chance to go into a school or a good university that would allow me to later establish my ability to enter into, say, a workplace where

The requirement is coming from a top university in China. And I think the size of the competition is definitely, in my view, a little bit toxic. And I actually don't think we were trained better or we had any better desire to be so competitive. But the size of the competition that we live in forced us to

have to be so much more committed to cover every possible score.

I felt that's the strangest thing. We weren't even learning for the sake of learning. No. We were learning for the sake of doing exam and these extreme level so that everyone will just assume based on the school we went to that we are good enough to work with for future jobs or business opportunities. Or in modern world, I was told that if you didn't go to top university, you don't even go on a blind date. People will write you off for...

for a potential marriage partner because you're not very smart. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. I remember back then, back in my high school, I need to memorize a big book. There's all the things. Once you memorize a whole book, you will pass the exam. But I don't remember anything I learned from that book. I just memorized those things. Then after the examination, I'll forget. Just a total waste of time for three years. Yeah, I think there was, if anything...

when I think back my study years, it did train me to have the ability to memorize and mentally hold on to

a lot of details and facts and things that I might be tested on. It didn't unfortunately inspire me to love the subject or even try to understand more. You know, I was reading a funny dialogue on the internet someone shared with me recently.

to say, you know, all these amazing scientists and people that discover, say, Newton, who discovered... Gravity. Yeah, gravity, or there's this other person who discovered some new physics principle in his past. I can't remember his name now. They couldn't have been Chinese kids.

Why not? Because none of the Chinese kids would have been allowed in their prime years of growing up to sit under the tree to waste so much time until the apples fell down because they would have been asked a million times to go practice piano. No Chinese kid would have been allowed to have a bath endlessly until they discovered some physics because they would have been told that you can only have fun. Yeah, so true. Yeah.

It's very funny because, you know, we have a lot of Chinese friends living in New Zealand and they kind of bring this mentality to their next generation. Like you need to win, you need to go to this mathematic class after school, you need to go to this English class after school. Even in New Zealand, the size is not that big, but they still inherited this competitive mentality. Yeah.

Yeah, that's what I noticed as well. Now that my kids are also going through high schools and I have come to realize that

Like all around them are these Chinese families that have over the years moved here. And even though the system here is quite different and you don't have these similar large competition, heavy national exam, but the mentality to succeed or to make sure you don't miss out in case you have to compete with someone for any limited place offering is so severely rooted in our society

sense of security that we felt automatically nervous if our kids are not trying their every minute to gaining grounds and preparation for what they might need to use to prove themselves later. So it's quite interesting that in New Zealand we don't have so-called national exams and

And we also don't have these sort of ranking almost among the university, really, seriously speaking. And there always seem to be a lot of schools and subjects that are open entry. So you would think the pressure to try to get in to a good university is not there.

But even then, I noticed almost all of the Chinese families are making sure the kids are doing the equivalent of the difficult exam in the States to position themselves to be ranked for Australian universities or British universities. Not so much because the kids are really aspiring to leave wonderful New Zealand behind, but it's more that they are trained to think differently.

you have to attend those level of invitations to be invited to enroll in an American or British university, even if you're not going. I think that's just something that has become quite rooted in our concept, that success means success.

academic achievement. Success means opportunity to attend greater study opportunities. Yeah. I do see your children, especially your son, he's very smart and he's kind of has this entrepreneurship spirit. Yeah, I'm not sure what's happening to his development and

Because I feel we are still a work in progress, right? He's still growing up. But I do notice that he has, you know, been born in New Zealand, grew up in New Zealand. So he has been trained to think for himself, which I thought I didn't have that much independent thinking or the confidence or the sense of my independent thinking when I was at his age in Taiwan.

And I thought that was very refreshing to see or very scary to see because we were always told growing up in Taiwan education system, they don't trust your young thought because they are not tested or they are not as good as those old and wise theory.

And the old and wise and theory help us to fold back to you just have to go to the top school. You just have to do the top degree. You just have to find something that you can use to support the rest of the generations. And that's a pretty heavy burden to grow up with. Whereas in New Zealand, for my kids, they have just none of that weight on their shoulder because their education is not about telling them

oh, you have to get to the top of the country. You have to get to the top of school. You have to get to the top. Their education is more about what did you find out? It's very inquisitive and it's also very much experience-based. What did you like about what you researched and what is your finding and what is your conclusion and what did you think is still relevant

there to be found. So growing up, they have this homework that I didn't understand the point of. And now they got older, they also find some of their projects are just too hard for me to even chip in to help because I remember when my daughter was maybe eight and she had to do some project, two projects. And she was wanting help from me because she was finding it a little bit big and rushed.

But when I sat down thinking, well, you know, I, as a highly qualified mom, was in many years of academic success and much more work experience. Surely I can just ace this in an hour. And she really needed to go to bed. And when we sit down and work on it, literally we then work through it for the weekend. And she did most of it, not because I didn't want to help more, but because they were too hard for me.

It wasn't even something that I could just tell her or quickly Google to give her a quick insight. It was so big and interesting a subject. She really needed to research and think and come up with her own finding and explanation.

I remember one of the topics I thought of just as random as it could be was what does human wear each time when they went to the moon? Oh, okay. That's interesting. Because you really, yeah, and it's at best interesting, right? Yeah.

The rest are just, I was pulling my hair. I was thinking, you know, I can't even find the answer in a quick way. And she had to go and read all about each time and compare the photos from each time. And I think that sort of education really broadened their inquiries and their interest point and their overall learnings.

But it definitely didn't prepare them for competitive exams of memorization-focused system. And it also made them probably a lot more creative. So I found that both of my kids are extremely creative. That's great. And therefore feeling very comfortable about being creative with their future career options. And they are great.

not so quick like I was to accept, okay, there are only these disciplines of subjects and qualification and occupation that will be good in human terms. So I should just aim for that school or that school. For them, life is really like a box of chocolate. And

They are there to explore and try and enjoy their journey. And I find that very scary for them, but they seem to be completely happy. The world is their oysters. They have so many options to choose from. Yeah, and my son doesn't like prawns or oysters. So far, he hasn't liked many things he's chosen, but he continues to enjoy his new adventures and have been enjoying

very passionate about everything new that he's trying and is finding his new talent or passion. And it's been very interesting and daunting as a mother to go through at the same time next to him and secretly hoping that he will suddenly sound a little bit like how I used to sound, but so far it hasn't happened. That's nice.

Yeah, let's switch gears a little bit. So when you first moved to New Zealand, have you encountered many stereotypes?

Because I remember reading your memoir, you mentioned when you attended an event, people thought you are waitress because you are the only Chinese there. Yes, I think it was, I didn't expect that because obviously, you know, when I started to study here, I felt like I was an equal and at least I was already considered an equal person.

student joining the course and I didn't feel I had anything different about me even though I was new and not particularly confident in my English but

But it was, I think, three or almost four years into my study, which is toward the final time when we were all finishing our degree. There were all these drinks and parties where the different firms and organizations that would like to attract law graduates came to meet us and talk to us about the benefit of joining them.

And there were many, many firms and there were many, many potential graduates and there were many faculties from our school. And usually in school, you know, we are all pretty, you know, casual and we don't notice so much. But in those setting of drinks where all the HR managers are there and they put forward their ideas

top young lawyers or hires from our school to come and talk to us about their happy time and their organization suddenly it became a really odd place for me to even be among them because I was in my year the only Asian graduate or would be graduate and

And you know, in those recruitment events, we are told to dress in the way as if you're going for an interview. So they could see you visually as someone that might be roaming around as part of their team in the organisation one day. So typically we all come in with something that's a little bit like an interview suit and not our usual jeans and hoodie. I remember I had a white shirt, a black skirt,

and a blazer, just very simple and like the rest of the people. But unfortunately, because of my ethnicity and the odd fact that I'm one of the law grads, people keep coming to me for food, assuming that I was part of the casering team. By then, I was already studying and working part-time in various jobs.

companies and restaurants in New Zealand just like a normal university student so it wasn't unusual that I could be in the role of serving customers but I was very aware I wasn't there to serve customer that night

And the first time when that happened, it was a bit awkward but funny. I remember being there with my then boyfriend, now husband. So we thought that was funny. And the first time when someone mistaked me for the person to go to when they wanted a little bit more chicken wings. Yeah. And then the request for wonton came.

And then someone might as well ask me what was the thing that they just ate, as if I know all the dishes and what would be in them. And then I suddenly realized, oh, wow, they thought I was there to bring the platters.

And I really wasn't there for that. What was your feeling back then? Do you feel like a little bit angry or you want to challenge the status quo? I was a little bit embarrassed after the initial funny episode occurred and when it repeated a few times. I think I was young and I was more shy than I probably am now. And

And I didn't really have the strength or even the mental ability to challenge or really think about what was going on. And as you know, you know, sometimes when you meet an unpleasant situation, what I was, I tend to try to forget it. I just wanted to not think about it because I would like to believe that might be just a series of unfortunate mix-ups. Yeah.

So I didn't want to dwell on it or think too much about it. And it's not until they repeat themselves in my professional journey of how easily I was considered not the right fit or how easily I was considered probably the weakest in my year or how easy I was considered probably someone who should be more grateful than my peers to be even just there for the same role.

that I realized this inherent bias that I experienced when I grew up as a girl, when compared with a boy, is now expanded to the fact that, you know, it's bad enough I was a girl growing up. Now it's bad that I'm an Asian or a Chinese person or a Chinese-looking person in the middle of this really exclusive circle of

Because there is a certain type of people that we look for, right? We don't automatically find it natural when what we expect to see changed. For example, when I went to an event recently and there was this beautiful blonde girl at the entrance of a Chinese industry conference.

giving out name badges. It's not uncommon for Chinese organisations to engage European personnel to be the pretty face at the door. But what was really unusual, out of the ordinary to me, is the whole time she was looking after us at the entrance, she was busy on the phone. That wasn't strange because, you know, running a conference could be busy. But the most unusual feature is she was...

completely fluent in that telephone conversation in Chinese. Oh, wow. Okay. So, you know, we all have stereotypes. Oh, this is a pretty young blonde and that will be looking after all of us in English. But she wasn't. She was looking after someone else who clearly struggled with the direction or the timing or the details of the conversation.

and was very much professionally assisting that person in this most fluent and professionally adequate Chinese. Yeah. And that made me turn my head twice and really had to have a good look at her and have a good notice of her and was quietly impressed. And so I think we all have our stereotypes and going through the legal process

journey in New Zealand made me realize how I was not in that default expected type of players and it was difficult to be given the benefit of the opportunity that others are quite easy to

obtain otherwise. And I have a really clear proof of that because the funny experience for me is as I come out of law school, I fairly quickly got married with my husband. So before I finished and before I got married, I had already become organized to start to get my first job.

And I sent out all these applications in my Chinese name, spelt in English, of course, and sent out with my grades and my cover letters. And I may have sent out maybe 100 applications, and I did maybe receive 10 letters that all told me that you are unsuccessful in your application and there would not be an interview for you, but wish you all the best, that sort of thing.

The other 90 applications didn't even receive a response that was sent to me by way of a letter informing me that I won't be considered.

And a couple of months after that, I had by then got legally married, changed my surname to my husband's surname, and he's a local Kiwi. So I became someone with this misleading surname as if I'm one of someone from here. Of course, because my previous applications all went nowhere, so I continued my journey to look for a job as a young, newly married woman.

wife of a local husband and I sent again my cover letter but of course I had to update all my names on my CV and I did update all my names on my cover letter and I think I may have even updated my transcript in my in my name because you can do that by getting the school to issue your transcript based on your married name and then suddenly my applications gained traction so

on the same grades, on the same litter. And then I realized we were just laughing. You know, what changed in my application? The only thing that changed is my name. Name, yeah. And it became a little bit sadly obvious. But, you know, when I was young and just looking forward to starting anywhere I possibly can, again, I just didn't want to think about it. Yeah. Because it's almost too painful to be philosophical and

trying to have an answer about something that feels a bit wrong and a bit scary and a bit disappointing. Yeah, I see. I remember when I used my English name, Camellia, and I did the A-B testing, either Camellia or Cam, C-A-M. Because Cam, maybe people may think, oh, it's a camera, short for camera. It's a boy's name.

So I did the A/B test and the people replied back to me more if I use Cam as a name rather than Camelia. How interesting.

Yeah. So I think, yeah, I feel like we have a glass ceiling to break through and also the bamboo ceiling pretty hard. But those are the things that are out of our control. So I agree with your philosophy. Just don't think about it. Just do your best. Yeah. I find that glass or bamboo ceiling mentality or that terminology to be a little bit, not so much my experience,

My experience is, I think for you to be dealing with some sort of ceiling, you need to be in the game. You need to be already there going up in the same direction. But I think as an ethnic Chinese, the barriers that we face and the rejections that we experience are a little bit more severe than that.

I have met so many like me that we didn't even get to come into the game. So there is this willingness to just keep you out because we have other better candidates. So we don't even get to go up yet. We haven't come in. And I think that is the sad part. And as you know, for any roles and many, many, many roles involve you

coming in from a very large pool and then slowly move into a smaller pool and becoming more and more recognized for your specialist skill and a smaller team. And until you really move from that big circle to the inner circle, you don't even get to start to consider going up vertically, right? Because you are just one of the mass. And it's not. It's actually a much longer and more challenging journey.

And I have, over the years, met so many wonderful new migrants that come to New Zealand from all over the world. And many of them were not like me. I had a local qualification and I was young and inexperienced. Many of them had a lot more to prove their relevance was because they've already done great international experience work.

better international training background or qualifications. But the fact that they were not from here and not ethnically the same, they were still overlooked or completely considered irrelevant because they couldn't even get their foot in the door.

And I think that is a real problem for them and it's a real problem for us because until we look past that bias of what fit we thought there should be in the package of this person,

Then we continue to miss out on these really wonderful skills and what they have to offer from their background. And I think, you know, that is something that is really a loss on both sides. Exactly. I think the same thing happened when I moved from New Zealand to the UK. I started to apply for a job, but they all say, oh, you don't have the UK experience.

all your New Zealand experience are not counting. Wow. Even I'm from the same English-speaking countries, there's two. We're not counting your New Zealand experience. We want the local experience. Yeah. That really shows how we suffer from the inability to conceptualize or really appreciate things

one another from a different context. And I was recently, because of COVID, I was recently meeting with many returning Kiwis from overseas market as well.

And they have, funny enough, now for the first time probably, experienced what we experienced. They may have done great things in another country, but when they come back to prove those experiences to a local New Zealand employer, the employer actually don't know the relevance of that experience or don't know how amazing that experience is. So almost they have to also go through this translating their overseas experience into what is locally relevant. Wow.

And I think that's just because we default to what we know and we don't really try to know what we don't know and we don't necessarily choose to undertake that analysis unless it's very easy for us.

And I think that's a shame because a lot of these international return Kiwis are so amazing and with so much to offer, but even they are missing out on their own race of getting back home into a place where they can really contribute and apply their abilities. And no wonder, you know, there are so many international migrants who have even less

to relate to a New Zealand potential employer or opportunity.

struggle even more. I think with remote working and digitalization becoming such a trending, I think people be more open-minded with the global experience. It doesn't matter where you are, as long as you can deliver the project, deliver the good outcomes, we'll hear you. I think the local experience won't that matter much in the future.

Yeah, that's actually what my son has been telling me. He doesn't actually think that my way of thinking of securing a pristine degree in something or securing a couple of majors in something else that have proven to be useful and more broad training that's likeable for future employers is really something that

is going to work for his future. In his view, he needs to be good at what he wants to be good at. And with those skills being in shortage, then people will need him. Yeah. And he will be able to deliver and offer those skills.

Whereas our training growing up is cover your bases, right? You know, do a commerce degree or do a law degree or do a medical degree or do an engineering degree. Because with those degrees, you could cover your bases with quite a number of future useful job opportunities. And apparently our world is changing on that.

And I'm hoping seriously that my son is right. I think he is right. He's very smart. May I ask why you decided to start your own business? What problem were you thinking to solve back then? Well, I have been working as a lawyer for a number of years. By the time I wanted to set up my own law firm, it was partly driven by this issue we have talked about. It was becoming a little bit suffocating.

to not be able to have more say and opportunity to look after the clients that needed my service. As you probably can imagine, in the law firm in the old days, it's pretty hierarchical. So when you get a big client come in, then the work is done by very senior people,

And when you get something that is litigation service that the client needed, then it will be passed to people who are in courts in the firm. And I was in this process of facilitating many client relationships and communication for these clients. But I was founding myself in this place that was becoming a norm for my employer to just keep me as this highly qualified employee.

translator in the name of a solicitor or a lawyer. I also was busy bringing in more clients for

because of the language advantage. But I wasn't getting deeper in my training and I also wasn't getting more opportunities to really work with the clients beyond the high and the selling of the firm and very basic junioring interactions with the client liaison. And I was professionally a little bit frustrated with how the model was designed

almost keeping me in a place that I didn't really want to remain in. And I also was a young mother who had two young children. And in the life of juggling two young children and a professional career, that demanded a lot from my attention to be a pretty real battle every day.

I wanted to try a different way to allow me to maybe have fewer clients, but much more thorough and deep interactions and much more solid service that is not changing hands between many other seniors with me as the translator.

And I also wanted to find a way to work without feeling so apologetic every day about having to work around my baby if they just had an immunization and was feeling a bit unsettled. Or if it's simply a really rotten day weather-wise and it's just not worth my time racing between the A and B of my home and the offices for the sake of being there.

We didn't even have a swipe card, but it was just very inflexible, the whole work environment back then. So I wanted to try something different. And I said to my husband, do you think you could give me a couple of years to give this idea a try of doing perhaps a more small service offering and a small list of clients, but just

just in the hours and in the place that I could fit to allow me to also work around my children's schedule without feeling so inadequate on both fronts. So he thought that was very brave of me and we both thought it was a real possibility that in two years I may have realised this is a complete failure and I need to go back and get a real job.

And fortunately, we both were wrong. And in the firm and the approach of focusing on fewer clients, a more personalized solution to just work around these fewer clients proved to be very well received. The clients loved it. They felt at ease that we were so on top of their needs that they never need to switch to another firm.

And they also felt so respected and supported that they were giving us a lot more than we thought we could ever get out of every single client. So that's where it all started and grew from. Yeah, then you formed a team and now it's been...

acquired by one of the biggest law firm in New Zealand. Well, yeah, we end up having to build teams and learn how to run teams of lawyers because the business demands and the client's needs grew as we grew. And, yeah,

We also grew to a level 14 years after I started that I became a little bit not so sustainable for my personal capacity to continue to maintain the momentum of a lot of personal attention because obviously I'm still me and having a few teams to manage as well as the clients.

it became very, very taxing for my energy and lifestyle. And it's serious business. Law is serious business. And so we were actively growing our team to become more self-managing because some of them were becoming fairly senior and confident. But the journey of training lawyers was,

was a long one. You know, it takes many years of experience to get there. So not many young lawyers could attain the level of confidence to share the load of running a firm that quickly. And it also wasn't wise to raise anyone in that regard. So I had to explore my options. So either I had to take on maybe two more senior partners

or I need to be supported by more senior lawyers for the sake of my clients and for the sake of my young teams. And they, unfortunately, we came to have this really good opportunity to meet with a really well-established firm that had very strong senior capability and reputation. We

fitted well for the business reason as well as for the management reason and also for quality of the legal service to be able to be expanded

and not compromised and still everyone can have a life. So I just literally jumped at the opportunity. So I'm very curious about your leadership style. You know, when you start up the company, then you need to

form your team how do you cultivate your leadership still because I know you are like a pioneer for flexible hours and remote working I met one of your employees in London and she speaks highly of you I think obviously one of the driver for me in the beginning to set up my firm is I was a

female lawyer doing a lot of work for my employer and I knew I could do it even if I wasn't sitting at the designated desk in my office. And I was passionate about doing my job well and I was committed to do this career further. So I think

You know, I wasn't any different from many of my peers. And if anything, a lot of them were better than me and even had greater aspiration and dreams and law and beyond. So I came to realize that actually in my own experience, you know, if I want to do it, I could do it anywhere. And I remember working in those days, laptop was a very rare position. Yeah.

But I remember spending a lot of money that could otherwise get us a much nicer car on the smallest laptop I could afford so that I could work from the river park where my children might be feeding ducks or I could work where there might be a cafe with a playground in the back so my kids could play and I could focus on my drafting activities.

And I remember this is before Wi-Fi or mobile data was a common existence. So I used to have those things that look a little bit like a business card, a plastic business card or a dongle so big that it looked like you were getting some sort of medical supplies out of your pocket.

to plug into my laptop so that I could have internet anywhere I went. And I know it can work and I know it worked. And it just required that mutual understanding and commitment from some committed players in the team, as well as a willing believer in me as their leader that I know they can deliver and I know they will make it work.

I especially had a different bias at the time when I hired for my team that I was actively looking for

that I know would just probably think a little bit more like me and would probably go through a more similar journey like mine and would probably appreciate and feel inspired by the mere possibility to have that much needed flexibilities on days when so many demands come at the same time. And I tend to trust, given my own experience, that

that when the same challenge came to them and they were given that opportunity to manage both, they will appreciate being given that opportunity. And as a small firm, I had to find good people and I didn't have a big name to offer and I didn't have a big package to offer as a humble boutique firm.

But what I did notice, I could offer something that many other big establishment can't offer, is the ability to be respected in where they want to work, how they want to work, and when they want to work. And over time...

I must say, you know, we try many different things as we do in the new business as entrepreneur. But this particular trial of giving people the freedom to choose when they work and giving them the tools to work wherever they work from has not actually ever failed us. Yeah.

So cool. Speaking of female, you are part of a female organization called I'm Being Bold. So what's your role there and what's the goal are you going to achieve? Like many of those awkward and embarrassing moments that we described, you know, when I got a bit older over the years, I started to have more time to

to really reflect on what happened in those times and they weren't all happy conclusions and it sometimes can be a bit emotional to realize how many opportunities were missed not through my willingness but simply not up to me. I wish I had a little bit more tools and support along the way to probably tackle those barriers and blockages earlier

And thinking back, I didn't have that support and I didn't know where to go for that support. And it was really cool when I came across some really successful female leaders of many different industries just by chance. And they have been, even though they are mainstream, apparently too successful to be true,

They have been approached by many other women who may not have been from migrant background, but simply just female aspiring willing candidates that have missed the boat again and again in their organizations for help. So these women leaders have been asked by so many people to have coffees, to talk about...

what they are battling with and what they are struggling with or what they are stuck by. And apparently the level of invitation for coffee and personal mentoring have gone to such an overwhelming status and that these really conscientious and willing to help female leaders have felt a real constraint in their ability to help further.

So they got together and came up with this great idea that individually we can probably only have so many coffees a year with people, even if we do want to kill it in our schedule. And it's not sustainable for us to overdo it in our own schedule either. Why don't we team up and make these support and learnings and possible sharing available for more by being more

smart about it and by establishing a way that they could then reach out for content and maybe pre-recorded materials or conferences or workshops or events or dinner dates to become much more accessible for more.

Because some of the women who needed help may not even have the physical ability to come to where we are and have a coffee. But surely those people shouldn't always be left out because they also deserve that support. So I...

very, very quickly. So that's such a great idea. And I wanted to be part of this, but I wasn't as successful as these people. So I sold to them a small offer that I could offer, which they might not be able to.

is I explained to them that what they had to offer is so amazingly helpful and I think it would be even more meaningful if we could reach more women, including those from my ethnic background, that may never have even dared emailing any one of them for a coffee. Yeah. I wish to help them reach that market and have more women

being able to share whatever that is going to be on offer. So we started, and this is going back six years ago, and it's been well received. And in December this year, we are going to have another conference. And I was just emailed last night that we are completely at capacity for the conference, and this year we are at 900 people. Oh, wow. Wow.

That's great. Yeah, I wish I could go back and attend this event if possible. Well, if you manage to make it back here, just let me know. Okay. I will give you my seat. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Last question. What gets you most excited about future? When I look back as a woman, I am someone who is more experienced in life.

learning from my failures setbacks and obstacles than otherwise so I think if there is a brand for me then I am that woman with many failures to share so for me what is exciting is it almost doesn't matter what happened yesterday

and what happened last time. We can always grow from that and look forward to the future. The future is always a brand new start. Yeah, well said. Thank you so much, Royal, for your time. Always enjoy our conversation. Thank you.