Horse Thief PT 1
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I'm Kate Winkler-Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the last 25 years writing about true crime. And I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them. Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes. And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st century lens. Some are solved and some are cold. Very cold. This is Buried Bones. ♪♪

Hey, Paul. Hey, Kate. How are you? I'm doing well. How about you? Oh, I'm actually physically hurting. Oh, no. What happened? An encounter with a bear? What happened? Multiple bears inside a jujitsu. Oh, okay.

I started Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and oh my God, I'm getting my butt kicked left and right over and over again. I'm going to need some videotape evidence of that. Well, right now, it's just my partners that I'm sparring with are just folding me into a pretzel, so it's not very exciting.

Okay, so what inspired this choice with all of the other things that you're able to do in Colorado? Well, you know, I kind of at various points in my life I had done or dabbled with martial arts. You know, when I was a young kid, my mom had me briefly in judo, you know, and, you know, the tumbling. And then I did just briefly wrestling in high school, did taekwondo for about

a while in college, you know, and then of course, you know, going through the police academy and advanced officer training would get defensive tactics instruction, which is inspired a lot by, you know, fundamental martial arts movements. So I really wanted to do that, but, you know, the arthritis in the shoulder had always prevented me. And so now that I'm two years post-op for the shoulder replacement,

The shoulder was feeling good enough to see if I could try this. And so, you know, I'm trying it. I'm being very careful with the shoulder. But, you know, you can't sometimes help what the other person is doing to you. Was this recommended? Did your doctor really sign off on this? Or is this like a don't ask, you won't reveal anything sort of thing? I think he would probably scowl at me if he knew I was doing this. Mm-hmm.

Kind of like me with indoor soccer. People in my life saying, I don't know if publicity tour is going to be in your future if you get a black eye. Yes, I understand that. With your shoulder. Now, you know, the shoulder is a concern. And I mean, yeah, I've gotten beat up. I, you know, had, it wasn't a black eye yet, but got a pretty good scrape underneath my eye. But my feet, my knees are all, you know, scraped up. You know, it's,

And it's different. I try to stay reasonably fit, though my cardio hasn't been the best. But I tell you, this is tough. It really is a physically demanding activity. And I hope I don't get injured and can keep doing it because I think, of course, it will just help my fitness level, but also physically.

You know, the self-defense aspect, I think, is huge. Yeah. And just the camaraderie, you know, with... Yeah. I mean, you're getting as close as you possibly can to people because you're just rolling all the time with, you know, all these people that are in the class. And, you know, you form bonds. You're trying to kick each other's ass, but it's in a good way. Yeah.

So it's part of mental health for you. I mean, we know that's one of your biggest ways of coping with everything that you have to cope with is a lot of different kinds of exercise. So I have a lot of respect for you for that. I think that's great. Well, it definitely, you know, the doing an activity because, you know, with the arthritis, my physicality had just gone away. You know, even though I stayed active, I knew how limited I was physically.

And now that I'm able to at least do something, you know, it is very, it is good. It kind of cleanses the soul. I'm sure a lot of people who follow you on social media know this, but you are very fit. And despite what you're saying, you're very fit. And so,

You have said to me several times when we've done some rescheduling, you've been really flexible because my schedule at the University of Texas is really wonky sometimes. You've been really flexible. But one thing that you said that stands out to me is you said my mornings, my early mornings are sacred because that's when you try to go to the gym. And so I think that discipline's really great. And it's nice to see it expanding, not just into the gym, but I know you're doing some swimming and you're doing a lot of stuff where you're really trying to rehab that

shoulder and be responsible with it. That's great. We'll see how it goes, you know. No more scraped up eyes. I can't guarantee that. So...

Listen, as long as you don't get an elbow to the windpipe, I think I'm okay with whatever you do. But if I start hearing your voice be affected, then I'm going to have to put my foot down, I think. Well, you know, that's one of the primary parts of jujitsu is the submissions. And a lot of the submissions are various chokes. No, sir. Nope. No, sir. No choking. I should not have to say that. But no choking, please. No.

I'm going to put a little insurance policy on your voice. Nope, that's it. That's it. You just be careful and I'm sure you'll be fine. But I'm glad that you're expanding your horizons. I appreciate it. Okay, let's go ahead and transition to our story, which takes us to upstate New York, one of my favorite spots. I wrote a book set in upstate New York and it's near the Finger Lakes. And I want to give people a warning that in this episode, we do talk about the death of a child. So let's go ahead and get started. Let's set the scene.

Okay, so let's jump into a story that is very complicated. I know I say that all the time, but this is really a killer who there's a lot more to this person than it seems. So we're going to be doing something a little different. We're going to go into present day, which to me is hilarious because it's 1846, and then we're going to go back a few months, and then we're going to go back to present day, 1846, to

to kind of see if when you hear about this crime initially, you'll have a reaction. And then when we hear about the killer and then return to the scene, I just wonder what kind of clarity you have when you learn about a killer's background. And we haven't talked a ton about that yet, about what leads killers to do what they do, the level of brutality. And how much do you, leading into this episode, Paul, care about a killer's background? Paul McCullough

Like, I know it informs you of stuff, you know, but does it sway you very much when you find out about things that have happened to this person in the past? Yeah, the offender's behaviors, of course, are being dictated by his or her own internal thoughts, fantasies, and what has caused them to lead up to committing this act of violence is often

what they've experienced in their past. Now, typically when I'm getting involved in a case, it's unsolved. I don't know the offender's past. So what I'm doing is I'm reading what I can discern from what the violence the offender did, the interactions with the victim, who the victim is, to try to get a sense of the offender's past.

to help narrow the suspect pool, you know? So it's kind of in reverse. And I kind of go to Golden State Killer with Joseph DeAngelo. I was doing all sorts of analyses based on, you know, what the victims who he let live, what they said he did, you know, what they said he said to them.

but also what he did during the homicides where the victims can't speak. And that was informative as I was focusing in as to, okay, what suspect pool am I going to dive into? But once D'Angelo was identified, I...

just wanted to know a little bit about who he was, but then I kind of pushed away. You know, I'm all about the hunt. Yeah. Yeah. And so now I know there's probably a lot more that's been made public about D'Angelo that I haven't gone and

dug into him yet. That may happen at some point. But it is something that your criminologists, your profilers, they study. Once an offender is identified, they study the offender's past to try to learn, okay, why did this individual commit this type of crime?

And how can we utilize that information in the future for other unsolved cases, you know, to be able to help the investigation?

And that's not right now your main interest when you're looking at these cases, because I know you did mention that about Joseph DeAngelo. Now that he's been caught, you're not reading about updates on court cases or his health or like other people who are really interested in true crime. You're moving on to the next because you're really interested in the result, the end result, not necessarily what led this person. You're not looking at the mystery behind the dark mind, right? Not once they're caught.

Not typically, no. You know, I have done that, and that was just all part of sort of the academic side in terms of learning what can be discerned, you know, about the offender and who the offender is based on what the offender does to the victim or does at a crime scene, etc. Maybe at some point I will get more geared into studying crime.

identified offenders and their past. But it's just like, you know, recently, relatively recently, Long Island serial killer was identified. And all I needed to know is, oh, he's architect, lived in the area, using the online space, sophisticated offender.

I don't need to dive into his psychology, his upbringing, how his father treated him or anything like that. Right now, I don't have an interest. It's like, okay, move on. You know, let's focus in on another case that needs some help to identify who's committing these crimes or who has committed the crimes. Well, for this case, I need you to be interested in the guy's background. So I need you.

To do a big think about what ends up happening with the killer in this case. And I know that because I've requested it, you will do it, Paul Holes, even though I know that's not your primary interest. Yes, ma'am. Okay. So this is in New York State, upstate New York, one of my favorite places. My third book and the first podcast was set in upstate New York, and

near Ithaca, but it was right on the Finger Lakes, which was, my lake was Cugo Lake, but this is close to one of the Finger Lakes, which is Owosco Lake. It doesn't play into the story, but it's nice for you. I know I see you on Google Maps right now.

I know you like to see current day stuff, but it's nice to sort of picture this. I think it's a beautiful area. I unfortunately end up being there in February most of the time, which I still think is beautiful, but the locals are always like, why are you doing it now? Why don't you come in the spring or in the fall? So what do you think? It's a nice setting for us, right? Yeah.

Yeah, I'm looking at the location in the country where it's at. I can see why this name of Finger Lakes, you've got some very long, narrow lakes there.

all spread throughout this region, Rochester, Syracuse, Ithaca. I bet in February it's got to be freezing cold, though. It's freezing. Yes, I can attest to that. Freezing cold and slippery for me. Let me tell you, I went into the backyard. I was at Edward Ruloff's old home, which was the subject of the first season of Tenfold More Wicked in my book. The owner, who is one of his relatives, popped her head out the window, and I was in the back,

And I was just standing on a pile of sticks. And she said, you know, you're standing on a pretty large creek, right? And I looked down and she said, it's iced over. I would get off the creek if you can right now. And I thought, I mean, I grew up in the country, but Texas, we don't have stuff like that happening. So I learned a little lesson about thinking sticks were safe to step on. Yeah, that's scary. I'm glad you didn't fall, break through the ice. Me too. I know.

Experience the glamour and danger of the roaring 20s from the palm of your hand in

In June's Journey, you have the chance to solve a captivating murder mystery and reveal deep-seated family secrets. Use your keen eye and detective skills to guide June Parker through this thrilling hidden object mystery game. June's Journey is a mobile game that follows June Parker, a New York socialite living in London. Play as June Parker and investigate beautifully detailed scenes of the 1920s

while uncovering the mystery of her sister's murder. There are twists, turns, and catchy tunes, all leading you deeper into the thrilling storyline. This is your chance to test your detective skills. And if you play well enough, you could make it to the detective club. There, you'll chat with other players and compete with or against them. June needs your help, but watch out.

You never know which character might be a villain. Shocking family secrets will be revealed, but will you crack this case? Find out as you escape this world and dive into June's world of mystery, murder, and romance. Can you crack the case? Download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android.

Discover your inner detective when you download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android. That's June's Journey. Download the game for free on iOS and Android.

So, we are in the Finger Lakes region, but it's 1846, which is pretty far back for us. And actually, this is right when Edward Ruloff was stomping around this area also. So, this is a time period I've researched in this area. Let me tell you about where we are. This is a beautiful area now and in 1846 also. It's near the lake I had mentioned, which is Owosco Lake.

And it's one of New York State's 11 Finger Lakes. They are long and narrow and really pretty. I love it. Waterfalls in a couple of them. And it's very nice. So in the mid-19th century, this area is booming. Lots of manufacturing at mills, lots of farmers. It's beautiful. The Industrial Revolution has not quite gotten here yet. It's very rural, but really pretty. More and more people are going to school, even in the countryside.

And Auburn and Fleming, and this does come into play a little bit, Auburn and Fleming, these are two of the towns where we're talking about, eventually become enshrined in history for their connection to the abolitionist movement, especially Auburn because it's a hotspot for abolitionists, including Harriet Tubman.

Black people in Cougar County are still contending, of course, with discrimination and racism and white supremacy that are plaguing the nation just overall. So race is a big part of this story. I'll, you know, alert you about that right now. Okay. So this is a beautiful area, very rural, tight-knit communities. You know, people know other people, but for

For sure, racial tension. Now, slavery officially ended in New York State in 1827, so that's 16 years earlier. But, of course, Black New Yorkers are still in serious social and economic disadvantage compared to white people. So this means that, as I said, racial tensions quite a lot, especially when crimes are being committed.

So now that I've set the scene, let's get to the first of a couple of different crimes. This is the main one, though. Around 9.30 p.m. on March 12th, 1846, we are going to focus on one family, the Van Nist family. And there is a woman named Sarah. We don't know her age. We looked all through newspaper articles and they were very vague, which is not surprising for the 19th century. She goes into her backyard, which is in Fleming, New York.

And she steps outside. We don't know for what. It could have been firewood. It could have been for anything. It's 930 at night. It could have been to use the outhouse. We don't know. She is attacked. And she is the first in this family who is absolutely brutalized by what seems to be one killer. So the man is armed with a knife. There will be a witness in a little bit who survives. But most of the people in this family do not survive.

So she's outside. It's in March. There could be snow on the ground. We don't know. She steps outside. Someone stabs her with a knife. Strong upward sweep of the knife inflicting a single deep wound in the abdomen. And she dies shortly after being attacked. So just on the offset, you've got somebody in her backyard, fenced in, in Fleming, and

at 9.30 at night who is attacking her, this woman, for no apparent reason, and there doesn't seem to be evidence of a sexual assault. What at first blush is your thought about this? Besides it's awful, of course. You said this was 9.30 at night? Correct. Okay, so in March, it's obviously going to be dark. And cold. Dark and cold. Now, I'm assuming that this was not a routine by Sarah in terms of every night she's stepping out at 9.30.

Doesn't sound like it now. It sounds just, we don't know why she went outside, but it could have been a myriad of reasons. Okay. So at this point, at first blush, this sounds like Sarah was a victim of opportunity. The offender was in the area, was armed. And if the offender pounced right away...

There is no delay. There is no, you know, kind of surveillance as Sarah's wandering around outside. The offender had already committed to committing violence, you know, on whoever stepped outside. I can't say that there is a focus on Sarah at this point without knowing more.

You know, why was the offender in the area? Is this a stranger to Sarah, a stranger to the family? Is this somebody who has a connection to the home? You know, these are questions that I would be asking. You know, is it possible this is, you know, an internal, an inside job, so to speak. Within the family, you have a violent actor who decides to take Sarah out, you know, to kill her while she's outside.

But right now, I'm assuming that the offender has just happened to be out there, whether to commit a burglary, but had already in his mind, and I'm going to just use the pronoun his just because most of these types of crimes are committed by males, but it's not specific. I can't say for sure it's a male being armed with a knife. And if he acted that fast, he was there

primarily with an intent to commit violence. It's interesting, just what was described as a single upwards sweep of the knife. And so in essence, you have probably a stab followed by an incisive action cutting through Sarah, I'm assuming her abdominal area, and it was enough to kill her. There's no additional stab wounds.

No defensive injuries. She was absolutely blitzed and the offender didn't spend time with her. Oftentimes, you will see with knife attacks, you know, the victim is subdued and then you have a lot more knife play, more stabbing, stabbing in the heart, stabbing in the neck, stabbing in the face.

This is not happening here. So this is almost like an elimination homicide, and then the offender is moving on. I think blitzed is an excellent way to describe what's getting ready to happen. So, yes, you're accurate with everything you're saying so far. And I will tell you at the end of this, there is no robbery. There's no one. It doesn't mean that wasn't what his intention was, but nothing was taken.

Listen to this. It's awful. So John, her husband, Sarah's husband, the victim, hears her scream. So she gets a scream out before she dies. He's a local farmer, about 41 years old, and a justice of the peace. He hears her scream. He rushes to the back door. He's at the front of the house. Before he can step outside, the doors open, and the killer with this knife confronts him.

and stabs him on the left side of his chest near his breastbone, one wound, five inches deep. And they say he dies instantly in the doorway of his house. One more, just one stab. And it keeps going, just so you know. Yeah, so this knife, you know, the description of the stab wound just left of the breastbone, this knife, that stab wound likely went into John's heart.

possibly severed, you know, aorta. For him to just die instantly like that, it was just a perfectly placed stab wound. Now,

You mentioned John was a justice of the peace? Yep. Okay. And in 1846, is that basically the equivalent of what I would call a judge today? Yeah. And I think somebody who's just in law enforcement. So, I mean, a justice of the peace, I think, could be a judge. It also could be somebody who responds, you know, if there's an emergency. So, yes. But he's also a farmer. I mean, you know, people wore so many hats in the 1800s.

Sure. And so I'm just kind of keying in on the victimology there in terms of potential suspect pools. Who has he run across during his job, you know, that could be seeking vengeance? Yep.

What is the one wound? I know you mentioned this with Sarah, but with a man, is the one stab wound significant of anything? Does that tell you anything? Because I could see with a woman, maybe he thinks just this one sweeping would take care of her, but this is a 41-year-old farmer who we presume is in good shape. Well, I'm surprised because typically in stabbing homicides, there's usually more wounds than just a single wound.

It's possible that this offender has got a fair amount of experience in using a knife and knows what it takes to kill somebody. And knowing where he stabbed John and how John reacted afterwards, Pat had absolute confidence that he killed John and then moves on.

But just like with Sarah, the offender is not spending time. It's, again, this is an elimination homicide. Okay. Well, there's more elimination here. So John is dead in the doorway. Sarah is dead outside. He walks into the house, goes to the second floor, and comes face to face with Sarah's mother, who is a woman named Phoebe Wyckoff.

"'She's on the staircase. I'm sure very upset.'

She sees him with the knife, bloody. She tries to run. He stabs her, kills her. Ultimately, she dies a little bit later, but she still dies from the wounds. I don't, it just says wounds. I'm not sure how many times. But if she's actively, if he hasn't surprised her and she's actively either fighting or running, I assume he thought it would take more than one stab to take care of her. But he encounters her and he's killing anybody who gets in his way, essentially. Yeah.

So, you know, one of the thoughts, questions, I guess, that I have is this offender, okay, he's killed Sarah, he's killed John, he's going into the house, Fifi is upstairs, right?

I, you know, the question that I have is, is did he know that she was inside this house before he entered? Or is he now just kind of going in and doing, in essence, a building search, just trying to see who is in the house and then killing them as he encounters them? So right now, don't know, you know, but it's it's interesting that, you know, he is progressing, going upstairs, going

and possibly either knows Phoebe's up there or is wanting to just eliminate anybody that's inside this house.

Well, let's keep talking. Now we've got Sarah dead in the backyard, John, her husband, dead in the doorway, Sarah's mother, Phoebe, dead around the staircase. He enters a nearby bedroom on the second floor. And this is the warning that I told the listeners about. This is where the family, the Van Ness family's child is. He's two years

His name is George, and he's been sleeping with John and Sarah, his parents. The killer goes in with this knife, and the newspaper report said that George is stabbed to death so severely that the knife passed completely through his body. Now, what the hell does that mean, Paul? That is not true.

unusual for a stabbing of a small child like that. Oh, gosh. In fact, I have a case involving, it was a whole family. It wasn't a case I went out on. It was one I reviewed as a triple homicide, a mother, father, and a little boy, you know, in diapers in a crib. And this is exactly what happens when you have a long enough knife going through such a small body.

So it doesn't really... It's not indicative of any additional anger or level of violence being inflicted on George relative to what was done to Sarah, John, or Phoebe. But killing a child... Yeah. What does that signify to you? Wiping out a whole family or just wanting to kill whoever's in your way? I think it depends. You could have an offender that is...

got some vindictive rage that has just decided, I'm taking out everybody related to this family. Like in the other case that I reviewed that I talked about where the toddler was killed, I think it's very possible in that case that

The toddler ends up awake and is making a lot of noise, is crying. And so now the offender is eliminating that noise because that elevates the risk of the offender being detected inside the house. And so it really just depends on, you know, what I would be interpreting as how much time the offender in this case is spending with George. Is it a single stab wound or is there a lot more time

violence being inflicted on George, then that could be informative in terms of why the offender is choosing to kill the child.

Well, I'll tell you, the offender doesn't have very long to stab George because we do have a survivor out of this whole mess. So, you know, we have Sarah in the backyard, John in the doorway, the mother-in-law who's in the staircase, and then George is now dead. The offender turns with this knife and starts to walk out the door, and he is confronted by a farmhand. His name is Cornelius Van Arsdale.

And he normally doesn't spend the night in the house, but he did this night, which is unfortunate for him. The offender raises the knife and stabs Cornelius in the chest. But because of all of the noise, it sounds like Cornelius knew this was trouble, and he came armed with a broom. And he starts to fight off the slasher with a broom.

So here's the curious part, which starts to play into the request I had of you to think about when we find out who this killer is, what the background is, and why it matters. So he's fighting off Cornelius, this killer, who has a broom. And Cornelius, being a farmhand, is putting up a heck of a fight. The offender stops trying to stab Cornelius at one point and asks him, quote,

is there a man there? Before continuing to try to stab him. And eventually Cornelius basically shoves him out the door.

It's an odd question, is there a man there? But I think that Cornelius was interpreting it later on to be like, is there somebody else there? Maybe he was on the hunt for someone. It was an odd question, especially to literally stop in the middle of trying to kill somebody and ask a question and then continue on. What do you make of that?

It is odd. You think about this dynamic, very stressful situation that Cornelius has found himself in. He's being confronted by a man who's now trying to kill him. One of the questions that I would have about the interview, you know, here he is as a witness

He's making a statement. Okay, under this stressful situation, did he hear that statement accurately? You know, that's always going to be something that I would be questioning just due to the nature of how he's hearing that statement. But assuming that that statement is accurate, why is the offender asking that? Is he asking...

If there's somebody, another male in the house, or is that a statement directed at Cornelius? Are you a man? You know, almost as if it's derogatory. I don't know, you know, at this point, but I have a feeling that that will clarify itself as you tell me more details about what Cornelius witnessed.

Here is an option number three. I don't mean to lead the witness here, but I also wonder if there's a delusional aspect to this. Oh, okay. Yeah. When he asks that question. I just finished listening to our episode about sleepwalking, and I just remember thinking, we've encountered that quite a bit. People who just

claim that they don't remember what's happening. And I'm not saying that's what's happening here. It's just a question of, is that a possibility too? Well, most certainly. You know, and this is where we start talking about, are we dealing with a psychotic offender, a disorganized offender that has just decided, this is the house and I'm going to go inside this house and take everybody out?

Well, we have two more events that I think are very odd in a very upsetting and odd crime spree here. And I'm going to pause after each one and you tell me what you think. So now, you know, we've got three adults, one child dead. We have a farmhand who's been stabbed in the chest, but with a broom has managed to get this guy out the door.

And now I'm sure Cornelius is trying to figure out, now that he's shoved him out the door and shut the door and locked it, I'm sure Cornelius is trying to figure out what he's going to do next, how he's going to get help. He's seeing all these bodies everywhere. He looks out the window, as do we think a couple of the little tiny kids who were living on a different floor who might have been witnesses. We aren't 100% sure. We just know Cornelius definitely saw everything. Cornelius says...

that the man walked out the door. After he got shoved out the door, he walked away, and then he turned around and he came back. After all of this, he comes back to the house, he kicked the door, he bent down and peered in the window, all while holding this knife, and then he vanished. Why would he go back?

after fighting with this man and clearly being ejected, why would he go back? And look in the window. It just seems so weird. I think as he's walking away, he's recognizing that Cornelius is a witness. Yeah. You know, I don't know if Cornelius knows the offender, but Cornelius might be able to describe the offender.

And so he's going back to eliminate that witness. That's the first thing that pops into my head. Or he's deciding that his, you know, his job is unfinished inside that house for whatever reason. Boy, it seems like it's taking a big risk by doing that. But you're right. And also, if he's in the heat of all of this and not thinking straight, maybe that's something he's doing. It just seems so odd. Now, this gets even more odd.

Cornelius is looking out the window after the man turned and left for the second time. The offender goes to the Van Ness' stable. He gets on an old, unsteady horse and I imagine wants to kick it and have him take off and take him to safety. But this is a very old horse and he isn't able to carry the offender very long.

The horse ends up collapsing a few miles away on a road. And, you know, we could see this that far away, right? So he's injuring the offender when he falls down. And it sounds like what happens is the offender grabs the knife and he stabs the horse to death. Is that psychotic or is that just a bad man? We don't know yet. They don't know, you know, I think that.

You know, it could be, you know, he's frustrated and angry. The horse didn't accomplish what he wanted to do, which is to get further away. And so he's just taking that anger out on the horse. It could be a delusional aspect for sure. So who knows? But I imagine this is a fairly rural location. Yes. So he's probably the only one.

in this spot with the horse, as opposed to other horses and carriages riding by. So he's not necessarily feeling that there's a lot of eyeballs that are going to be seeing him. So maybe he's got a level of comfort knowing, okay, well, he's upset with the horse possibly, unless it's a delusional act, and he's taken some time to kill this horse versus just running off.

Can you be delusional and angry at the same time? Oh, absolutely. Okay. Yeah, no, for sure. You know, and delusional thoughts. And I'm, you know, I have to preface this. I am not an expert when it comes to the various mental health conditions.

But these individuals can take, you know, whether it be a normal anger response. And then, of course, during a psychotic break, they act out or they misinterpret some benign incident. But because of their mental state, that is the stressor.

that kind of causes them to start acting out violently, you know, because they're misperceiving or misinterpreting this benign thing that is occurring in front of them. Well, it'll be interesting to see how this unfolds. The offender who had just stabbed a horse as well as five people decides he still needs to get out of town. He goes to another stable that's not too far away, steals a different horse and

And continues to go out of town. So a couple of things before we move forward with the story about the dynamics. Just so we know, we have that witness, Cornelius, and Cornelius was asked once, it was revealed that this all happened and law enforcement came and he was interviewed.

He was asked, what did the man look like? And Cornelius said he was a Black man. The Van Ness family was a white family. And here we get into the very complicated relationships between Black people and white people in 1846 upstate New York, particularly complicated when a crime happens. The Van Ness had an excellent reputation.

And the interracial aspect of the murders sends shockwaves through the community. And I would have thought it would have been harder to catch the offender, but people knew who he was. I don't think it was Cornelius, but I do think that when word got around, there was someone who turns out to be the killer.

His name was William Freeman. He is in his early 20s. He is a black man. He was arrested by constables the next day, 40 miles from the crime scene, because he was trying to steal that stolen horse, the one that he did not stab.

And William Freeman was about to go under the spotlight for murdering this white family. And it would become something that really affected the community.

So the main suspect we have is William Freeman. We don't know very much about him. I will tell you that this story is so big that it needs to be a two-parter, and it also makes history in the courts. It's an important story. So I'm going to leave you with this. William Freeman is a complicated man with a very, very difficult past.

And I just am going to want to know from you, how much does knowing about his past and what he's been through inform you about what happened with the Van Nest family? And that's what we're going to talk about next week. Sounds good. And, you know, I have a ton of questions myself. Uh-oh. Ruh-roh. No more questions, Paul. Okay. So I will see you next week with part two of the story. Sounds good. Looking forward to it.

This has been an Exactly Right production. For our sources and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com slash buriedbones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Amorosi. Research by Maren McClashan, Allie Elkin, and Kate Winkler-Dawson.

Our mixing engineer is Ben Talladay. Our theme song is by Tom Breifogel. Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer. You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at BuriedBonesPod.

Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode the criminal mind, is available now. And Paul's best-selling memoir, Unmasked, My Life Solving America's Cold Cases, is also available now.