Roundtable_003 - Oct 2024 - Elections, Faketoshi Sues Again, Taxess, and ECB Concerned about FaiRNeSs
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What is that? guys? Welcome back to bitcoin auto. I am guys won the guy who has read more about bitcoin than anybody else, you know. And we have got a round table.

We are back with a mechanic, Steve, and my good brother, jeff, and we are digging into everything that had october is over. IT feels like that was yesterday, and we didn't even have time to deal with everything that happened in september. Weve got a number of different things with the sec, with taxes, with capital gains, with the election, which we don't get to until the very end.

But everybody had some really fun input on that. We've got some new developments with the number of the privacy related core cases is going on with toronto cash. And sammer, I crag right, is suing people again.

shocker. Some major updates have drop for B T, C. Pay server. And there is a new l two design. Light Spark has just announced at an entirely new layer to design a unique one called Spark plus number. Different things to wrap up after lugano.

And so much like really cool stuff was both unveiled, and I gotta talk to and see a lot of people. Now, finally, I got my kid hoody. I'm really stoked about this thing.

I've been love in up and where. And ever since I got IT got to sit down with the whole punch crew. Are there a fireside chat with math, David and Andrew, and that is being edited and should be released soon. That'll be both on our show as well as the youtube channel and I assume their youtube channel as well.

And we also did a cue and I after we went for like three hours, like there was a serious run down of so many of the different issues and things that we've been talking about and in the the tech and the things that they're building, everything going on the key just just seriously IT was a IT was a marathon of conversation in Q A. So definitely stay tuned for that. Don't forget to check out the sponsors uh or IT, excuse me, are affiliates and for sharing the show out and boosting and streaming on fountain.

Thank you to everyone who does because that is how the show gets out there and it's a great way to support our work. And you know what i'm doing over here at big one possible that lasted into the news. Quick run down before we jump into IT for the big coin weather report.

We are at the block height, eight, six, eight, eight hundred and sixty eight thousand three hundred the entire size. The time chain is just shy of seven hundred dig bites. Now my a one terrible umbro node is gonna be on the struggle bus here.

In a couple of years, hash rate is way up again, uh, four percent increase for the last divulge change. Bitcoin Price recently shot up to seventy three thousand dollars yesterday and it's back down to her else about seventy thousand dollars headed for fifty eight k forever. And in the maple has an infinite number of transactions in IT IT with a huge six hundred megabit backlog and fees are five sets pervy by IT, so you can get the typical transaction in for about forty.

Maybe if IT is an excEllent time to consolidate, open up new channels, close all channels. And of course, if you haven't set up about the hub, we will be talking about IT in this episode because theyve had some really cool new things. And I finally got to use IT, put my hands on IT and do some lighting transactions with IT.

So you will hear all about IT. And with that, that's the between weather report and we will get into two days episode of guys round table number three, october two thousand and twenty four. This is guys round table.

Everybody wants the .

round table around.

okay so round. So yeah, it's some couple of court things. Cg twenty to cash, some taxation shit. One big thing. I think we pretty much talk about that last time, so might not do that again, but might be worth bringing up if we have time. Data has a thing.

I don't know if anybody know, talk knows about that a bolts with the B T C play, B T C play plugin haven't gone to use. But i'm pretty giz that ali hub boom. Book in love. Now we have it's working .

with you about a bunch of these things.

Last time a bolts in the B. T. C. Pay.

you talk about that. We talked about that. We did me talk about how we hope to.

Can we talk about how and why didn't get to use IT? I hadn't used IT.

Don't know. So maybe i'm wrong.

maybe maybe I did come up, I don't remember, but danny is just update new. New release brink donation. So you kind of talk about some big development stuff tour project um kind of cool donations, natch ing up to three hundred thousand dollars a support for IT.

Now light Spark, this one is interesting and I haven't gotten to go into the details, but there is a new layer to called IT, literally Spark and it's kind of like a combo between it's a bit inspired by state chains um and it's a actually IT actually seems really wild. I haven't gotten the technical aspects is very much like service provider ask and you know do A A fet service provider. But IT also has unattentive exit.

And just with time locks for the typical on a typical thing. But I think you probably just kind of inspires discussion about l two stuff in general um and maybe about self forks activation. That's what to think I felt there's probably good to bring up just because they're still quite cote. Totally new things that we keep um keep dropping. Then I did want to talk about the quantum resistant thing, uh the um quantum resistant hash address p two Q R age and the cubit just because how gott go back and forth on that so much my quantum sounds like a sm ninety eight percent of the time and then like two percent of the time, like there's some very reasonable things said about IT and I just don't I don't know but .

he's pointed Jimmy song about IT like he sent me an article that was written in like twenty nineteen is just like the whistle blow on quantum computing is like a biggest m and blockchain .

technology such it's such .

a bunch pushed like every single they always like there's like a couple of ridiculously unsolved problems that they always just call out. It's just an engineering chAllenge and it's like, yeah, you say you calculate you prime factor, you know you figured out the prime factors of fifteen and three and five. You started out knowing that was the answer and you can tried everything about IT to give you that and then you acted like now like it's just one more little leap yeah where we can get that without knowing the outcome.

And it's really just like a lot stuff I don't really understand, but a lot of IT just rings so true from like experience some wisdom of clown world and like cowardly experts like it's just physicists can make a living of IT, they can spend up ridiculous narratives and they can Carry on getting funding. And no one that knows anything about IT has any incentive to blow the whistle. Everyone can Carry on making money and Carrying on in this bullshit cracky.

Like i'm just there's not there's like one paragraphing that says physicists used to be they used to torch a nature into revealing its secrets. Now they're just a bunch of like ridiculous cowards like, you know chasing after government money, just telling complete nonsense stories in doing no real work like that. Sounds like everything about .

the modern world. I believe IT rings very fusion is right around the corner.

Yeah I some of my post doc work, we had this collaboration with some quantum physics at oxford and IT was like, I mean, the first quality of computer paper was writing in one thousand nine hundred and seventy two. And now or at the point of maybe factorization two digit numbers by the if there is growth in quana computing, it's not exponential loving people think of all growth, and computing is exponential just because that's computing.

But most things don't grow exponentially. No, most things grow linearly. Like progress in quant computing is not growing fast at all, is not on track at all, grows like five percent year and that this is never going to get there.

Yeah that's that's the thing that um I had somebody i've had a couple times we're out on social.

I've just been like I somebody try to convince me like where am I were wrong? Where am I like kind of dismissing something that's an important question and i've heard really good arguments but most of them, like jamison lot that a really great article about like if quantum computing is a threat, we should figure out how it's a threat first you know um like a lot of very simple kind of like principles of how to deal with the unknown I guess are the best examples of arguments for quantum computing being a concern. But I had bunger people says, I know it's super real.

You should check out this account in this account and they like, tag them is like, show guy, that this is how IT really is, like what's going on and then they linked to a bunch of papers like, oh, no, it's very real. China did this and blow up, blow. And I went digging into IT and are so many of the articles just don't tell you what happened, like they don't I don't tell you what the supposed breakthrough was. They just say, you know, we factor a number or we did this thing and I was like, huge and now we've got a thousand cubits and IT was one hundred cubits two years ago. So there's expansion al growth but then I kind of dig into IT and it's like virtual cubits on like a and it's like.

okay well a simulated conduct .

computer and literally and ah I am like I have .

like I develop his think like years ago. If someone has the name quantum in the product that they make, it's A.

I know who the guy is, who waited. Like, you remember that guy is things could quantum .

something like.

there is, there is like his thing like.

you know, orgel well was in the spanish civil war. And that was when he learned his entire like, political perspective. He was like, I would read articles about battles that literally never happened where we won.

And we're like honor bolen. There would be battles that we lost, that never got mentioned at all, that literally were erased from existence. He's like, the press just reports a narrative that they just will invent stuff to support a narratives theyve been told they're to do and it's got nothing to really.

And this was like, this is where my whole life basis came around for judging sort of technological progress. IT was blockchain technology. Like I watched this thing develop and I just become a bus word, and all the money start getting invested into IT and IT just be nonsense from beginning to end, like completely using the wrong tool for the job. Like everyone that knows what a lock chain is knows is useless in almost all possible applications apart from bitcoin, where you keep IT minimal enough and then you can be distributed widely enough that IT becomes this fantastically reliable redundancy. Wireless, if you keep the features that primitive enough, it's worth at having IT and for everything else, is like the worst thing ever because they are all centralized applications, would like advanced features where the last thing you want is a blockchain.

Dentists in is extremely revolutionary o .

it's very important technology. If you don't if you go to the dentist without using dental coin, you're really missing out on the utility that is presented by the blockchain of industry.

I mean, teeth just start get .

in any wider the underlying nutritional technology of you like i'm just a round of my point. I'm just saying that became like my whole world view that you can have bullshit tech, just appear that no one ever clocks as being bulls shit. So to this day, people are still like book chain technologies is what paris we going to use IT to revolutionize whatever.

And and IT just goes on forever because no one involved in IT has any incentive to go that bullshit apart from like bitcoin maxims, to have nothing Better to do than call out scammers all day. And IT is even that it's tiring after a while. So now I look I look at corner computers and on my is that can happen. You can have an entire industry of hot with nothing to show for IT at all. And you can fall for IT, like google will fall for IT, like the the chinese government .

about governments have fAllen for. And that's like kind of big thing is that that like the canary in the coal mine is that the nsa is switching to a quantum resistant photography and the chinese government is switching. And all this stuff is like we should be really concerned. And like it's .

the government, like they used to walk around iran with these little sticks. You know where you hold IT was like A A bit that broke off a tree with like is like A Y shape. And they were, they were told that they could detect bombs and explosives with these things. Then they just had people walk around holding the two ends of the serious point that, yeah, and they would walk around iraq and stuff like they're very into woo these intelligence agencies. They're like, look, man, metaphysical stuff is not the table in two seconds.

I don't know about a stick you like dowsing, you that there like pointing toward like dowsing stick or whatever to find water, but you can legit take one of those little metal flags that like people stick in the ground and IT and how like bit over into an l and loosely hold IT and IT will point to stuff. IT will point to power lands under the ground. IT will point to water running under the ground.

You tell what you verified. Do what have you verified this? Yeah, i've done this. You have, you've seen me do this. Yeah, this more.

Some sites, one hundred percent. You can do that. I don't, I don't know why would do IT tree branch, but but IT IT legit works like it's doing.

I don't know the bombs. I don't. Well, the thing is, is like IT does work with like power lines under the ground so or water pipes.

whatever. So electricity moving through a wide does have an electric field, I mean a magnetic field. Creative.

it's down. You're right. Maybe I dismissed this wrongly.

but again, I don't know what the hill. I mean, i've heard the tree branches like there were maybe there was a certain kind of branch, they would do that. But no, I don't know and I don't know what like he's right. Like like I don't have bombs and makes me like maybe you can find some sort of understand that people buried a bunch of stuff. Maybe it's just disrupt some sort of the election matic field in the intermagnetic field in the earth, I don't know, and maybe that would do IT.

I might be. But on since since we have spent a tim and starting about quantum already, I guess we'll just start with our first news item that bp sixteen seventy has proposed cubit, which is a quantum resistant south ork with the new p two Q H R address format and IT renews the quantum resistant discussions after uh quantum computer between hope in height by Scott arrison which is also something I had intended to cover on the show but I haven't really ducked into um but it's one i'm interested in digin into just gin to see if I can be proven you know dismissive about IT um like a man I guess it's kind of cool that we have a formal bit in case in a case like IT seems to appear that there is development you know especially when they were talking about computing just in general, like the fact that there could be a change in a computing paradise is not too crazy to me.

I get especially with the way this sort of technology moves in general. But uh, going back to the thing I brought up about, i'm asking for someone to prove me wrong that like this wasn't just overhyped nonsense when somebody gave me a paper with like I was like quantum satellite communication and this like quantum quantum networking and so like they just little to put quantum before like a bunch of different things. And instead he was revolutionary, and this was like a proposal and like a government agency. I was like, this is the biggest bunch of bullshit. Like there is I can pull nothing substantial from this.

And that's one of the big problems, is that you get people who have no idea they're talking about, who have just bought into IT, sending you stuff that's complete just horse crap, you know, just like nothing at all but the dad, like a couple of like experts jump and like no guy you you're missing IT you you not seeing the riding on the wall and sure there's a lot of hide and onest up and they sent me this send me a couple of articles and a number of the articles failed to say what they did they they said like all we succeeded in factory a prime number um and I ve started clicking on all their sources and most the links went like wikipedia definitions and stuff like that's not you're not sourcing anything. You're just writing some stuff and and linking to diction for right sake and that's like one of the biggest things is like quantum articles, articles about quantum articles, articles about quantum revolutionary articles guys uh um articles about quantum inevitably have all of I always try to find the source where the hello this coming from and IT is shocking. The number of times i'll have like forty links in there and none of them go anywhere meaningful to back up what the actual argument is.

And I finally I like really, really dug and I finally found a um a paper that was talking about I think IT was google quantum computer and saying that they had success fully factored and I was like kind of hidden because I was IT IT was like round is like one of those things like if you want to hide something in a story, you you start like a list of things and you say there was a you know as a paper on the desk, there was a small trash can, there was a gun on the mental, there was a crack in the window. You put IT in the middle so that people don't really think about IT too hard. But they had factored a two digit number.

yeah. And this was supposedly revolutionary. This was the only thing that this guy could link me to.

And the paper was from like two thousand and sixteen. And this was like twenty twenty when I did this post. And there was nothing. This was apparently like the big thing to be concerned about that was like legitimate and i'm just like the only .

other thing I ve ever seen is like they just created a bunch of random right? Like it's like.

look, we set off he was a glorious and number gender yeah yeah.

Just another man is .

just another one of these things like climate change and stuff that like you're never going to be able to disprove. So it's just filed IT away in that hard to your mind that you're never going to get until someone actually cracks something. It's just going to be a bugging man.

You know, this is not a threat to because it's crazy how people prioritize threats to biton. To me, like this is just I mean, bitcoin core completely stops in the year twenty one. I sits like bit the whole bitcoin project as of now, yet absolutely stops in twenty one or six.

And people want to talk about things like tail emissions and twenty one forty four and quantum computing. That's never gonna happen like that. The priorities are just like crazy.

And in twenty one to six actually isn't IT. Not that IT stops, but the way IT won't IT roll over. Now you want IT technically go .

back to fifty born. You cannot .

produce .

a time stamp in one block greater than thirty two. absolutely. Part of the concerns that bit going absolutely stops in two thousand and six. This.

it's prety easy to fix the yeah .

but all biton ordinary right now absolutely stopped them. And it's like, ah it's not easy to fix socially.

It's like a soft K I mean, a hard work for that or maybe a software. I think you can do a software .

is soft cable not that hard to fix and everyone's motivated to fix IT. That's why it's not worrying who's gonna help about where's the bitcoin flash crowd in there?

There is a huge crowd trying to make IT into a hard fork and trying to pack other things into the hard fork because if you if you wait long enough, it's only a soft fork. If you start early, if you wait until like right before and after, IT is absolutely going to be hard for. But if you start fifty years ahead of time, that I can, I can be a soft, like any note running today. IT will be a hard fork for that road node running today. The only way it's not going to be a hard fork is if all the .

nodes are ad by the time .

twenty one or six happens. You know running today, absolutely hard works in twenty one or six. So our only hope that in no hard pork is that all those nodes are no longer on the planet. And twenty .

one is yeah really the sooner .

the sooner you get the code and there to fix that, the Better. Because then every update like IT would only be the people that are not updated from now, right? And there's like a bit more people running nodes from now, hopefully.

So like IT, the problem gets harder. Like IT more likely that there would be knows they can kick off the network. If you the longer you wait.

you could have done I P V six and solved that problem in a ninety four IT would have probably been a whole lot Better on the uptake. And we'd actually IT actually be useful today, are usable?

yes.

So I just I there so many things .

to worry about and quite just not one of them that is always .

the other ones are the one is just not compelling for headlines like the minute is quantum. It's it's a click, people will click on that.

It's some sort of new magical thing that we .

have to we're talking about IT algorithmic.

I'm pretty sure once a year there is a mainstream media piece on how content m computers breakout. Like and I get IT from my dad as a text like going.

So like once a year, probably ce every quarter, like it's pretty frequent if you're like searching for IT, maybe maybe as far as like big media, there's like once a year, yeah, but IT comes out pretty, pretty often actually .

I thorning bored of discussing it's not a thing and oh.

I guess since mechanics. So we're going to change topics too. OK, what's 我 不要放弃。

i'm going to .

do a quant .

episodes bit you off。 Let's about how this yes.

you .

guys get in the one I oh god, okay, let's hit some bad news. Let's let's be depressing first since i'm still the our room that work into an I D Y um train.

So uh two senior E C B researchers, okay, this is it's hard to call this bad news because this is part hilarious um uh E C B researchers, uh so european central bank published the distribution consequences of bitcoin, arguing bitcoins rising value benefits early adopters at the expense of non holders and late investors. And read the whole abstract because this is just, I could do a three hours. Guys take on just this abstract.

Here we go. there. This is by yordan chaff and ic been seal from the E. C. B. So super experts here, the original promise of knock moto to provide the world with a Better global means of payment has not materialized. Instead, the focus has increasingly shifted the bacon as an investment asset, promising high capital gains.

Promoters of this investment vision put little effort relating bitcoin to an economic function, which would justify its evaluation. Just little effort, while most I just, oh my god, the thousands of fucking episodes. While most economists argue that the bitcoin boom is a speculative bubble that will eventually burst, we analyze in this paper the impact of a bitcoin positive scenario in which its Price continues to rise in the foreseeable able future.

What sounds intuitively promising, or at least not harmful, is problematic. Since the quin does not increase the productive potential of the economy, the consequences of the assumed continued to increase in value are essentially redistributive I E. The wealth effects on consumption of early bitcoin holders can only come at the expensive consumption of the rest of society if the Price of bitcoin rises for good. The existence of bitcoin in publishes both non holders and late commerce, while previous discussions on the redistributive effects of bitcoin assumed that badly time trading was a necessary condition for losses, this paper shows that neither poor timing of trades nor holding bitcoin at all are necessary for impoverished under a bitcoin positive scenario.

Sounds like there's some projection going on here.

These mother focus print money. These people counter fit money as a business. They suck a wealth out of society. The only thing they do is create in polishing. And they are saying that non holders and late commerce benefit from bitcoin going up less than people who got in early are getting poor because they're not getting as wealthy and all of that cares their money printing disease. Twenty three hours of a guys take have on staying for makes .

me sick men makes me thorough si stomach is reverse in the counter and effect, which is under ably the most ethical thing you can do. And the appeal, of course, is that that's not fair on how and that's how they ride up the masses. And you know it's common you know that one day when the wheel comes totally off, when there's like a uh a sudden acceleration elerson this moment where there's some real hardship for people that isn't just the boil frog thing. It's like really something broke and people really struggling, you know, they're going to do and take that anger and point IT at bitcoin and go those fricking bitcoin is a why you're suffering right now and everyone is gone to believe IT because that's what always happens.

world economic terrorists.

They are going to say we to the financial system and its our fault that you can't afford you know anything anymore. They're gonna do that and people are gonna believe IT because angry people are stupid. Even if the clever Normally wants to make someone I angry, they don't think anymore and goes, he was big coin us big kind of room.

Everything is not, they're rich. You're not rich. They got lucky. You didn't. And it's much easy to believe that. So that simpson bit where, like, where a poo is, like showering his wife with valentine's gifts, and, you know, and all the wives in the town are getting upset, because this is one guy that's amazing to his wife. And, you know, you know, home is like, who we gna blame for this.

And then they go, well, we should blame ourselves, really like, and he's like, yeah, look, it's easy to blame ourselves, but it's even easier to blame a pool. You know, it's like that. It's like we told you about bit going four years.

You didn't listen to us. You can either slow the humble pill or you can sit there and go score these big gones. Like, why should they be so rich?

Like, and it's it's just crap. But you know, it's going to happen. There's gonna blame us for everything and we're going to have to sit there and deal with people. China, robust china, break into our hotel room. Whenever IT comes to well .

hopely guys about the say I is thunder, we do need to like beat on top of IT with the memes and like the it's not that hard to to like. I mean, this is what, this is what the mainstream does. They try to note late people against, like ideas that will lead them to the truth, right? So we can inoculate people with names against the narratives that we already know. They're going to say like that, you know I think it's doable. And we just we need to be crafted about IT.

We need to mean Better and harder and we need to be more terreno cyp to anarchists.

We've got some good means, i'll currently that, but you know they've .

now this can be rough.

Yeah, what's gonna a little harder with the etf now to make all the wall street to bad guys?

Yeah, why don't IT pretty .

easy to make wall street seem like the bad guys? But but they have a lot there's a lot of financial senate for them to to like like dave Smith points out is that you know in in twenty ten you had two movements. You had the occupy wall street and the tea party.

They were both like sired around hating the banks and hating the financial sector. And somehow they flip that into like being angry about you do transgender bathrooms or something. They became some sort of weir cultural thing instead of instead of the actual thing that we were both technically united against.

I increasingly think it's going to be really difficult because of the either access to information but also the degree to which I think people will slowly exit and when how many people will likely already be connected to IT in some way, in the sense, like like having an allocation to a etf, having bought some on some exchange or whatever. When IT gets to the point where they need like they really need to attack IT.

Is that yet you know if more and more of the people are actually getting some sort of of uh positive result from IT, like you know their investment is literally only their retirement is only up two percent because four percent of IT is bitcoin and you know six six x in the the time that all this went on and then the banking sector blew up again or some ship because that'll be A A thing that happens every two years. Now probably for the foreseeable future, IT will be a little bit like telling, trying to tell the people that you are the problem, you know, IT be like saying, that is so stupid hooo nes as why the dollar is crashing. Look at all the Prices of all these homes. But like everybody has a mortgage and their home and like the whole middle class is like it's my foot you know like um I I kind of suspect is especially with the amount of cultural momentum going against the political class lately, I don't see that getting anything, but I see that going in one direction and kindness appears that way globally like dave the woke and the believe every single thing the government says, mentality and culture, I feel like peaked in twenty twenty um and we're starting to roll downhill. And I doesn't mean that IT can't turn around, but it's really hard to unrich to to undo a break and trust I feel like to rebuild that back up.

He definitely is. There is like a weird like I mean, it's a small subsection of the population, twenty percent group that is like full in a full on, you know like everything they say and IT would be I mean to be a not .

scary group of right super boot look in lunch s but yeah.

I think like IT depends like or wish I was that optimistic because on the one hand, you have people that are like thinking and rational, but also can not even trusting. And just like the architecture mid IT, right? They are. They are not actually stupid, but they just, you know, they're just unable to quite grasp. Corrupt institutions can become.

And the fact that you don't take scientific studies at face value, you do have actually you know you do have to actually taken into consideration the motivation of what funded IT and the people behind IT and the the way that might be reported. You have that and those people can come along. And B, I, O, turns out you know the vaccines weren't safe and effective, or or, you know, that was the result of gain of function research.

The disease happened. But that is only one cause of IT. The other one is this simple coatee. Some people really just unprepared to think outside the box or think for themselves at all. And those there's no redeem those people.

They still they're more afraid of going against the group and they are like whether not it's true is really kind of relevant. They just don't want .

to be astonished yeah and that you don't people, people are never gonna cut. Those people are always looking for, you know, they're just outsourcing every single opinion they have. Uh and and they're just never gone to stop doing that.

Those people there's stuck that way. You you can't cure cowardice like that. It's just onna go on forever. Those people are condition that way and they're never to you're never going to shake them out of that.

I'm here a jeff has to say very quick before I but I want to say something on that inside.

Some of that though is there is like this is something i'm kind of realizing recently is that there seems to be like, this is like people just cannot allow themselves to entertain the idea that most people can be wrong about most things. And that has been the case throughout all of human history. But if you set that off limits, like if you will not allow yourself to, like even consider that most people in the field could be completely wrong about that field of of thought, then you can you can follow the facts correctly, right? Like if if the facts are going to lead you in that direction, then, but you've already set something out that this is just awful limit.

like there's no way ably have to not trust any fact that doesn't come any any fact that doesn't come straight from those that trusted, right? Um um and .

that's like IT is like you've already made one of the possibilities just impossible for you. You you've already set like this is a legitimate possibility like legitimately everybody could be wrong in a field like IT IT happens. And so what's kind of .

the historical norm?

I think I think not only a historical norm, I think is the case in most field today.

So I think it's actually kind of the case always in kind of permanent since because it's not until we have a new foundation. It's like slightly more accurate than the previous one that we can have a new era of technology that then opens up this entire new area of information and data that we couldn't get before. And then we realize how stupid, naive and simpler stic the previous explanation was. IT only allow us to have the technology to get us the new data that allows us to modify the explanation, but that everything moves infinite in all directions. And it's only ever just going to be that we were wrong and we just find out a new way that we were wrong about IT.

yeah. And the problem is, is that you can be right while also being you can be right about a lot of details while also being .

completely wrong with the and so .

it's like in the same way that people were accurately mapping mars relationship to earth, and everybody thought that the earth was the center of the universe. And it's doing these like loops like, you know, this IT moves really weird and they're like giving you these crazy calculations that are accurate .

representations of mars .

relationship IT IT doesn't make the problem. It's extremely complicated, hard to like make sense of until you put the sun at the center and then, oh, well, okay, we were accurately describing the relationship, but we were making lots of mistakes because we didn't understand how IT all really move. Rena rena, understanding what the center gravity is. Um so like it's you get a lot of details right while also just being completely fucked and wrong with your explanation.

even that there was an orthodoxy because um have you seen the principle you heard of IT it's a movie no is is a science documentary that is like the accident we accidentally geocentric again like and it's they did a bunch of I don't know, I don't understand, its super well put study in costi to IT. You know they're just like look looks like the I actually is in the center of the universe like it's not just a thing IT actually seems to be I understand IT well enough but it's a mainstream physics documentary.

It's i'm definitely going to have to watch this one.

If our technology is limited in our ability to see out you know away from the earth, then everything we can observe would be that we would be in the winner of that.

I don't know. It's more, neal. It's not the old like if you're in an explosion, every point looks like it's in the middle, the explosion. It's not that like trivial thing. It's like this mittie kako and people in IT like the like one on like why on this shouldn't have happened and I don't know what exactly the study I need to watch IT again.

really like I feel like I I feel like i've gotten to a Better place .

with the stuff. I just think IT of models like is one grade class where we did the other center model in the sun center model, and we just looked at IT as trade ss know like like the art sender models Better for this, sun center models Better, Better for that. There is no like perfect model. So it's just like, yeah yes is like what .

you think about itself is kind of like measuring the speed of something, right? Like it's it's relative. You know it's it's all about like what you're measuring IT against that that kind of decides what what your output is like.

Can't launch a satellite time, hours using the earth or center model, but you can do a tone of great things with the earth centered model. So it's like, what are you using the model for? You know, it's not like reality was made for our mental models of IT. Our mental models of reality never gonna reality going to .

be a business gum, sir. There's simplified attract yeah exactly.

So like asking what models true is just kind of like missing the point of using a map? No wih map is truly you're like watch map. Do you need to get where you're going?

Yeah as a great way. Yeah but yeah so bit going. What's going? yes. So let's keep going. Let's he going on on our news items here.

So cg right, sues biton court developers for nine hundred and eleven billion pounds in the U. K. High court, alleging the secret and taut deviate from bitcoin s original design as a decentralized cash system interest.

They was denied the decent centralized intentions of IT because b sv were so underived ly centralized, right? But I mean, I hate plane gotcha with crag because he's completely just inconsistent. He never like he doesn't remember said yesterday, he's just makes IT up and and what I really just find IT amazing that people fall for this stuff is just, he's like, again, he didn't have a quantum computing game at one point.

Yes, yes, good. I'm twenty .

for twenty. If IT says quoting it's a scare.

like we need some sort of review, like like we really we need like the fact that he's already been involved in multiple court cases, he's clearly just completely full of shit like there are ought to be some point where you can create another cause you know, I how is .

how does this go to court? How does this waste people's time and money? Like how is our court system so bad? Somebody who is, is not.

is not america? I mean, well.

I mean, amErica runs on suing people. So like it's extremely popular here as well. But I just don't understand how, like I don't understand IT IT just blows my mind how unbelievably corrupt in bad IT is that you can destroy years of somebody's alive on and make them spend tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars defending themselves from something that is brilliantly and obviously untrue, pushed by someone who is blatantly fraud and has done this numerous, numerous times before.

How does this even go to court? How does this survive long enough for, right, an article about IT this point, you know, I don't. They got money.

That was, calvin had a lot of money to throw out this. That helped a lot.

How does where is his money come to? How does he does he hate his money? Is he matted his .

money? No, I think some cost fallacy is a very real phenomenon. And IT would kind of be, you know, he made his money from gambling websites, right? Then, you know, I would be kind of poetic if he lost IT all with the same gamblers fallacy of, like, if I keep daring money at IT, eventually I win something right?

Like I already spent billions, while hundreds of millions, I don't know how much you spent, but I don't know like since losing and having increase over with that humiliating staff on his twitter, in his website saying I am not any of the following things. And like a the guy who wrote the White paper, no, i'm not the guy who who used the named Sophia in the form. I am not the inventor of any of this like.

you know very .

beautiful and yeah the first time you've been honest about something, but I mean, it's definitely infuriating. And until the prosecutor in the U. K. Takes IT upon themselves to go after him, state verses crag for committing gery, you know, seek out maximum sentence for the whole thing this to happen. But no one seems to be bothered like if you commit a crime and no one's interested in pursuing you for IT, then IT goes on pon IT and you just .

keep going on and .

it's it's an old like biblical principle like you hear this phrase and eye for an I A tooth for a tooth all the time. But the context in which has written in the bible was specifically, if you go to court and lie in order to get someone to incurs penalty for a specific action, you other one that has to suffer IT. So if you're accusing someone of rape or something like that in the penalty is death and you're lying, then you get put to death.

So in crags case, it's that it's that old. It's not like, you know, someone punched me, so I punched him back. That's not what the principle was. IT was always um he wanted me to go to jail for four years. So now he goes to jail for four years.

Is that yeah so in this case on what whatever is he wants the the ring he wants to impose on other people, he needs to suffer all of IT. That's that's like the oldest concept of justice. I know that you know that relates to courts and other stuff and IT needs to happen yeah.

but I know that yeah .

it's it's always taken out of context, right? It's used to justify revenge is not revenge. It's just it's that specific principle .

like considering the amount that A A court case can steal from your life like that seems like a perfectly reasonable think that you know if you're trying to destroy somebody's life for steel, a million dollars from them and like you get proven as totally full of like just completely making IT up, like that you are a fraud and that you wasted three years of this person's life in one hundred thousand dollars in legal costs in everything, is that you pay for IT, like you pay for the punishment that you are trying to an act on them.

Now that's a great principle. I like that. And also like reveals a lot about like you know the whole like accusing someone of rape to destroy their life, or accusing someone of .

the .

the many sort of things that are used in that kind of back stabbing way because your because of the tendency to want to believe the supposed victim and the difficulty of proving, oh my god, that is an adorable cat um and the difficulty of proving certain things so that you just get the benefit of the doubt of just saying that like they were there and they did this and then everybody hates them. That doesn't matter if it's true or not.

It's just over you know um like drag and Russell breakthrough articles in the news for a year as a violent drug king pin right and he he was like, well, that was that was all they needed, those they needed then they he's a murder. We we charged with murder oh, but we've revoked that. We're not going to do that because we lose the case. Um but this doesn't matter because we got to talk about IT in articles for a year before his court case and now I running knows that he's murder and .

yeah big one just brings up the mani ax out of society no like right and there is a Price in list people but you know what i'm talking about IT.

Probably going. But it's like even the good .

there's .

no consequences, like economic consequences. Bitcoin brings reality back. It's like, you know if you make a bad decision, you don't just print more money and pretend this never happened and slowly everyone suffers like bitcoins just brule and that that makes people just go this is and the stakes that is so high. So like people are gonna do some insane stuff and IT you know it's a transition .

yeah like you be a big, long, messy.

painful transition if just no, no one .

takes anything the feet world, no one takes anything seriously that's the problem but no one will do anything of any like quality or you know just low time preference means taking a game seriously.

That's all like the fia world is was like the slow and gradual taking over of all thinking and culture and everything with a series of escalating White lies. IT was like, if you can get someone to sense for themselves about something very shallow and simple and seemingly non conceptual, then, okay, well, less, less, extend that just a little bit further. And you know, boiling frog, let's make them admit to this other thing, which is a little bit less easy to accept but because you variety accepted the the coon code easy thing you're more likely to lean towards the yeah i'll just let that slide to and then IT goes again and IT goes again. And then like seventy years later, you believe women have penises and it's like, how did this happen and where the hell did this come from and your not only that that to say something so simple, so innocuous, so completely harmless as that now that's not true. Like could literally make someone want to physically stab you in the face and that like they are because to admit that is to like unravel this whole stack of like cultural and political White lies that are all built on each other, like like poking poke in the bottom of the the teater a little block game again thank you like poking the bottom of the jingo tower. I don't look there don't you dare um but yeah as well yeah I think like my my .

since I law show my favorite thing has just been trying to figure out why I like acceleration ism so much and I think I like because it's the only known cure of boiling for syndrome is is the antidote the only way you can do IT so i'm like definitely yeah kala wins or they even Better like everyone votes for charm and they say kalo winds again and they arrest everyone that disagrees with IT like like is the only way I know to like wake people up and go that's IT like, of course is messine like awful but I want to just love IT otherwise everything is slowly .

worse and worse than slowly worse. Like the it's it's like taking a recession now in the short term uh or going into greater debt to kick the can and down the road for thirty years and like that's really soft and easy. But you know if we had just had like sick recessions along along the way, we'd have cleared out really quick.

The economy will be baLanced. We would would have a giant multi trillion dollar of fraudulent banking system build on nothing. And you, we'd actually have sustainable growth.

We d still have savings. Know, people could actually quit their jobs if they didn't like them and groceries would be affordable. You know, I just it's .

really frustrating because everything is getting Better technologically like the bottle of everything gets, the more the parasite class can steal and get away with. So it's like, you know, a few centuries ago, a one percent tax is enough to start a new country. Now it's like, it's like, yeah we going to everything just fifty percent of what you own is coming to us like they just passed a new thing in britain that if a farm is over one million pounds in value.

which like all of them are .

everything in inheritance tax, like you cannot proceed down to your children like and they just they what's so unknowing about IT is if they were as bad as this when technology you wasn't as good as IT is now IT would have spot you would be over already funerary. But like, they can get away with IT because people still have basically a reasonable quality of life despite the fact that almost everything they own is getting stolen from them.

Yeah and you know, even like trump, like he instead of like there is like these decent ideas, like all the income tax I do like or just taking taxes off of like overtime or whatever you like um taxes off the tips, whatever, like those okay, that sounds great. But then he's like tariff. The best thing in the whole world is like the fuck, man.

Like so you're gonna create a new layer of taxation that will disrupt all international supply chains and and what's can happen when you're gone is the next state come back and we're just gonna a whole new like category of taxes on top of the es we've already had. Like it's not just fucking ridiculous. And and then you have conservatives are just fully on board with that.

Yeah, that's fine. Just do let's get rid the income text. I think that's really onna happen and and it's just replaced with tariff s and mean that it's always you always get the worst of whatever they're saying they're gona do.

You never get like if there's a thing ad thing yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's go to the next thing because this one it's it's about courts and stuff again. But the judge in the tornado cash case ruled that and this is funny because this was just after ruling that um analysis was protected by free speech for my camera exactly what the details were um but so they used free speech to defend the the liars in this case but anyway the tornado cash rules uh that code is not protected as free speech.

And i'll just read you without reading the article from the rage by the way, by local etes i've had the link to and in the show in fact, when we go to say this, not forget um is uh um this is the subtitle. So in a oral statement issued on thursday, tornadoes cash judge says the code is not speech, non custodial service providers can be money service businesses, and specific knowledge of criminal activity is not a prerequisite for charges of conspiracy to commit money launder ing. So you do not have to know that criminal activity is going on in order to be launching money for criminals, which is like saying that you do not have to know that somebody is is going to kill someone with a hammer to be guilty of conspiracy to kill someone with a hammer.

If somebody buys the hammer from you can kill them you non custodial providers, Candy money services businesses, which means that even though you do not have control over the funds and all of the instructions, sending and receiving details are being written by the users, you are still a money services business, even though you never actually control any of the money. And code is not speech because apparently it's a it's a different kind of language. And you know I think IT was actually in the article loa wrote about musical scores.

That's a great one is that music is a form of code. And because IT is um uh like like musical notation is a little a literally a mathematical formula. So when you are broadcasting IT, to say that this is functionally different from Normal conversation is to save that a certain song that makes you feel or want to do something in a certain way is, again, not protected by free speech because because its functions, because he has some other purpose, merely speech. And that's what the argument is, is that there's some other communication other than the fact that you're just communicating information that is involved in this. So curious, curious your thoughts.

Is there way we can is there way we can like a record the code into a book and like, do the same thing, know, like, like, like, how do I mean, how do you to play the game where we just I don't know it's such a thing. Put IT on a short .

get everybody he's going into the tornadoes cash hearing yeah.

I don't know. I mean that they have particular sly over the top. Of course they always do that, but I don't know this is a pregnant thing way your approach just has to be find loops, exploit them, find new ones when they come after those and it's expensive because that means you just need lawyers all the time.

Now what are doing like um without going too much into detail, like ocean has to do what he does in a very careful way, like we won't permissionless non custodial mining to be a thing and one of the three code is is a lawyer and he knows every single way to do IT in a way that you know you need someone who cares about IT for a start but more than that um it's not about being full harder or making itself a matter is just about carefully doing you know things that you know allow you to tell the story the way that needs to be told for IT to be convincing and if they if they go all right, I guess because you've done this that and the other you are on on custodial and you are allowed to be permissions and you don't have to you know ask for D N A samples of everyone that uses your service, but from now on we require this and then you get took, all right. Well, let's move head that like you can do IT right if you have a lawyer, right? But if you're just some deaf on github, you're gonna think about this stuff, right? IT is gonna fly go excise ad.

Like i'm sure when summary, when they came after summary, everyone started guessing. Like, wait a minute, did I break the law with that pull request I made? Like, yeah, when I found a bug that did, you know what I would leak its I P addressed something when you supposed to be using tour is closing that am I now in trouble?

Like everyone was suddenly asking themselves these questions, right? And like I say, you don't you don't want your legal council reviewing every line of code. You right, but if you're in that position, you can do some amazing things, which has been part of the whole fun of ocean. Just having this lawyer not not like a guy we have to hire and pay by the hour, but an actual founder of the company just be like, yeah we can do this. We can do that and if we do this we have to do IT that way and IT doesn't make any sense to any of us because we don't think like that but this guy knows so yeah like .

um this may be one of the arguments against acceleration ism. Is that know at what point does your lawyer not matter anymore because everything you can anger ero court and and you're just literally at war with you know the. The organization that is ruling over you, right? Like, well.

I mean, that's what that's what acceleration ism is, is the point where we're suddenly all at that point rather than one of us is and then another .

guy and .

then another .

guy be at once wanted a time. Like I just I don't know IT depends on mean, like right now, it's wanted a time and and we still like like we're very close to the point where he doesn't matter. Where do you have a lawyer or not? Like they're just going to rule, like these rulings are completely insane, like they're just in a rule against you no matter what.

And so I mean, know the same thing was like, well, so we know a lot of these things that have gone on. And so like they're still like a cord we need what we need is, I guess the acceleration ism makes sense in in a way, but like there also needs to be enough of of a way for us to coordinate into like cause this this really the problem, right? Like the decent, the resistance is always a coordination problem.

Coordination is difficult without trigger ing events that cause on its coordination is spontaneous and is based on absurd actions. Like, you know, U. K. Government gives four hundred and fifty billion to banks in baila that was like a trigger. And suddenly it's like occupy london is a thing.

You arab spring was triggered, right? Doesn't this why they hate mass protest so much and they wanted dispose gatherings because when I see that you agree with me, and I see that you see that I agree with you and that cades, and suddenly there's a million of us standing interior square or something that's just like a trigger, and suddenly it's like the world was never the same after that day. That is the mingle.

Prevent things like that from happening. Like we don't mind if, like eighty percent of the population is sick of the government. We don't actually mind that because none of them know how anyone else feels, right? So as long as that's the case, they can never coordinate.

It's always gonna be like splinted fringe groups and you know, guilty pleasures watching people, you know that you agree with that, the same politically and correct stuff on social media. There's no trigger, there's no muscle organization because that can only be try that that can only be triggered by like outrageous events. And IT feels like occupy and a the arab spring will like the last time they ever let that happen. Now it's just no way .

yeah I feel like i'm and I go back and forth between acceleration ism and um optimistic incremental like shifting a kind of of mentally totally based on my mood generally if i'm a bad mood he's like just fuck and burn in all down um but the the interesting thing like going to actually can to cure point about like you know occupy wall story and these things is that there seems to be the sudden shocking moment in which lots of people wake up but IT also often just Peters out or it's easy to break up the organization or the ability to get anything functional or meaningful done from that.

And people just run at a time and capital to invest to IT and then IT just hana become it's it's almost demoralizing you know a year to down the road that nothing happened from IT. And then to the other point of that, like, well, the overwhelming majority of people are followers. Like there are countries that are run by like crazy totalitarian regimes that got slowly voted into office of with the whole boiling frog thing.

Eighty and ninety percent of the country absolutely hate them like don't trust them think they're total lunar s they don't align with him culturally at all. And there's there's nothing there's nothing. They just stuck there.

You know, south amErica is such a great example of so many times in which there was some apparent push towards freedom or like, uh, possible moving away from IT and then things got horrible and then there's just like not like people just don't anna die and when you have an enemy this is willing to kill you IT almost doesn't matter that everybody knows IT um and that everybody believes the same thing. So I don't know. I worried that acceleration ism just produces that because most people are awards ends without the right event, at the right time, with the right tools to organize and to prevent dispersion of that organization.

Does IT even go did does images get tired to go home and try to get a nap? And then we wake up. And we're in this world where we don't have any power, freedom of or anything.

you know, yeah, the houses .

for guns.

our school systems like there's having such institutional like dominance in in terms of, I really like like we have a plush school system, right? I mean, like this kindergarten is a is a german word like, school is a german word like and so so like we have the system of like training people to respond the bills and training people to worship you, the teachers, the center of the class, and breaking up age, age groups and in their intelligence levels, and all of this stuff that like, really like isolates people from you.

Like you, you get stuck in these little buckets, right? And so that is like, it's so like colors, everything about the way you see the world and function and how many people are like, I just don't know. Like what do we need to break first in order？

I mean, like the amount of home schooling is increasing, the amount of monetary schools and things like that is increasing. Like, is there that do we need things to be muddy and slow for long enough that we've broken some of the like the brainwash? I mean, like the fact that so few people now believe the the the corporate media, you know, the government sponsored media is is like a huge shift and that most of that has happened since twenty, twenty.

And so maybe, you know, there has to be maybe before you like like acceleration ism. I mean, twenty, twenty was an acceleration of thing, but we walk, go IT back, you know, for at least the last year. Two, right? And so there's this, like, I don't know how much of that is is bad, because now people are going to comfortable again, and they're going to do another one. This can be two steps forward, one step back toward authority m or whether and because they're still a much people invested in the twenty twenty narratives.

twenty twenty one yeah twenty bad things they they pull back on, seven of them give the appearance of success and are you still .

moving in the wrong direction, right? Um and so I don't know I don't know whether whether we I mean, honestly, twenty twenty I think revealed a lot of things to a lot of people and may not me like I just look at i'm kind of thankful for IT in a way because I made me start looking at, you know what I would do to get out of the country if I need to make me start you made me realized that there were a lot of people that I dated. If I had been with them like I could, my nightmare was ending up on on the like opposite side of some issue like this with the person i'm going to spend the rest of my life with is right. And so so i've specifically like, you know, crafted, you know, how am I going to find people that our .

girls and community .

is different? No, IT has IT don't mean .

like you like.

it's fantastic. And now .

you give. up.

And but I might tell you .

what I .

did a literally my profile like the goal just became gonna scare away everybody that is not like compatible with what i'm looking for. And that means there's a lot less matches. But the ones that I do here, I feel like, yeah like just the whole thing, the whole goal is just a filled her .

out like I stop waste in your own time like the last thing you need is to accidently get your filter needs to .

be like a huge, no huge. And I I used to just try to be funny or something as attract as many people as I want. And I can just go and be picky and I can choose.

But that's not how IT works. You just have going to want a bunch a terrible first day, do you know? Like so so like and filtering people in like friend groups and everything else IT really doesn't matter. Like because there were people that I was friends with that I think would have just had me in the back if like you go to happen again. Like you just can't trust anything that you know some of these people believe.

So yeah IT comes down to trust ment. Like, yeah, if you're going to fall for stupid narratives, I cannot trust like have kids that gets even worse. Like, I just too important if you're in my life invented .

in literally decisions about the kids so the issue is one hundred times worse than if I was just between you and the well, yeah.

it's just like, you know talk to certain people and when I talk to about canadian Mandatory vaccines and they're just like, well, you're just an idiot for not getting in the first place on like, yeah, that's IT you're over like I cannot I cannot trust you like that's just that's never going to work ever again.

Like that should send off every red flag like the fighter that does not yeah coerce into medical decisions I don't want to take that are demonstrably bad, by the way. Um even if they weren't just that is a principle you cannot violate you know you're all worried about holo cost and in apparently you out here to the you know neuron boat principles, no way like that. A violating every neuron bug principal there like this is an involuntary medical experimental the fact that you don't have that as a red flag tells me you just absolutely and done with .

IT like I don't care absolutely crazy like like literally if you're going to invoke void holocausts the juice, the first thing they did was treat them as sick and disease, and they needed .

to be isolated. And you and like this.

Yeah and and I was like, so I was like, well, yeah, I did. I was like, was talking to some Normally and they were like, well, yeah, they did that. But I was not that they actually were like, there wasn't a pandemic.

Didn't think I think okay. So they they use covet to scare all of you into believing that healthy people were the cause of the pandemic and that justified them being turned away from hospitals, fired from their jobs, locked in their homes, not allowed to travel. Like.

like, how do you not see the parallels.

man? G, and lazy. And if you allow them .

to infringe .

on your rights in exceptional circumstances, they will create exceptional circumstances.

Yes, I can't help thinking about one time I arrange about people being sheep in my wife and he says, I love sheep and I was like, I kind of sheet too I .

may I .

may want to like, doesn't actually take all types .

you like yeah I .

know .

they're definitely argument.

We need .

people that follow, right? Like I don't. But the thing is.

is that how evolution works? You like there's a reason why we have this intricate baLance between like people who deviate from the group and people who conform to the group and people who go out to basically stand strongly enough on what they think to make a new group. You know, like there's a really great book that kind of talks about this from the context of starts, with the context of bacteria. They literally have generational differences, where we thought for a long time they were completely different species of bacteria because they change based on their conditions um and whether not they are conforming and consumers versus explores and individualist literally like in the bacteria colony um and then like goes all the way up the tree and like explains this in human civilization and culture and social dynamic xing, all this is pretty bucker uh, h Howard bloom, how bloom is the author? But really cool, very cool ory but I did you have something add because other we have news items .

takes all type IT haunts me you know it's what about IT would .

be nice IT .

would just be nice if some of the types didn't .

want to kill us. Yes, that would be really nice.

Like, you know, the best, the best thing, you know IT just allow the best ideas to bobble to the surface. And you remember that individuals are still people and use claim to have empathy and at stop killing people, not be nice .

account account with this shit and IT just drives me so mad like this. I can't like i'm still gone round on airplanes and seeing like people where three mosques get the fuck over IT.

Like it's while we're going in deep in dark here let's talk about demarch taxation minister and how they have proposed. And this is increasingly seems to be getting closer and closer to reality because he keeps getting push by more, more, more different municipalities and uh, urge governments to state of taxing unrealized gains. Yeah .

accelerate.

accelerate celerity.

I should be a dollar for my halloween outfit and just walk on going accelerate.

Wasn't a denmark .

register .

search .

for bombs at news? Um we had we had connection polite and i'm just fuck all these countries are psycho and just government is crazy, don't .

government yeah and .

connection. And they got pulled him they pulled him out in a random search um and then wiped some little piece, took some little piece of paper out of a bandy rapper and and White did on his uh suitcase right White did not go back and .

so I have twenty something came .

up with traces of explosives yeah .

there's no telling what's on the book bag. But I never never built any bombs with IT .

was I was certain I was like this that we're going to miss. So we are have been programmed, then reprogram to a whole bunch of new flights. And mr, first one, apparently the guy broke into our room and just dusted explosives all ever my brother's back. And that is the only thing I did just trying to screw up our flight schedule. And now we're like stuck in this in between just about, get on the plane and server is like head in hands whatever is like all we found explosives in your back and where and I just start genes like, so my brothers is going to get some drinkers up as today and it's only about percent funny that it's about thankfully.

I think the god that was doing IT didn't want to be, didn't want to have to, didn't want to be doing any more than I want to be there. And so he like took he's like, we're gna have to unpack your whole bag and I like started dump gs like, no, no, i'll do IT and he started taking and like White, the couple of things in there. And they finally came up positive, like like without the game, the failure. And and I came up Green and he was like kay .

and realize gains .

topic yes yeah .

on on that same topic. Italy has raised capital games to forty two percent for next year.

It's sure not known for doing things under the table. So I am not .

sure .

they'll ever won'd be paying in that. yes. And IT won't just accelerate .

the p to p economy. Yeah, acceleration for sure i've been thinking about are been looking into kind of games you can play with lending to get around. Can no capital gains and unrealized gains like I think there's a lot of things you can do, like if you set up my company and you learn the company the company bitcoin, the capital, the cost spaces does not travel with that bitcoin.

So the company gets IT at like you know, zero cost spaces. I think just keep lending bitcoin around in a circle between like you and your companies. And I think there's gonna a lot of creative stuff in that world. Get around cap games.

That sounds interesting. I'm on board with this.

Yeah, everyone, he's not travel with the thing. let. But the thing is like you can't have the lending in terms be that you pay IT back and see a because then and that's going to be considered to sale a bitcoin. So you just like create these, I eventually pay you back and bit point things. And then like you never .

pay you back or something like that are impossible anyway because go up my company.

the company would technically be losing money in terms of bit coin forever and the new just restructure .

every five years or .

whatever exactly um that kind of hits our bad news um which is good, but they're definitely attacks the crap out a bit um and they can .

only do this so much they can reduce .

the oh yeah you know and this is actually something funny in fact, I think mechanic, you talk about this in your talk because I was after a set for privacy and you know, something that gets me on the whole privacy issue in bitcoin is that so many people who talk about a lot seem to forget that this is a transitional thing.

That the number one loss of privacy avenue or the the attack vector that every but the point that that is going through where they're losing IT is the exchange like it's finance, it's swan, it's rivers. Is any sort of K Y C exchange where you have to give your information because they have a financial uh services obligation or whatever had to report to the government? Um and you know then coin by sells IT for you know extra money of pretty scores and dump ed on their users.

But um when you actually like I talk about IT um when we're actually like a big on economy, there really won't be exchanges won't be like two steps away from every single big one transaction. You know like I don't have like a shockingly small among of the beacon in that I use these days is attached to K, Y, C, anything because I get paid in bitcoin and I paid people in bitcoin. Like I don't have I sure there's could go privacy concerns with U T X O and I have to just know how to do like simple separation between a lot of these things. But I don't have any big thing attaching like stuff to my identity um outside of just like if i'm consolidate inside of a wallet or something. Also I like twenty while I said I break up bason what i'm using IT for and all of .

this stuff like advance to .

use a hundred percent hundred percent. I I don't need to dismiss that. I just me point out the fact. Using bitcoin day today and actually being on a bitcoin standard, a shocking number of the privacy concerns aren't really huge concerns anymore because you actually restore the su danna mous nature of the transactions.

If you've got five people between every K, Y, C, if you got two hopes between A K Y C, two hops of actually using IT and then K Y C, okay, you can basically tell who everybody is in that situation and then you contact probably a lot of other stuff to IT. But if you get five, six or seven people, they're just using bitcoin. You've probably get four, four hops in that, that you just have noted with hell.

You don't know. You don't know if you're probably never gonna. Um if you've got if you're on a big in standard, the big problem of privacy is a transitional one.

Bitcoin is sudanese and if you're using just bitcoin and lightning, you can still get a lot of benefit from IT. It's really the the K Y C transition where fia is still the norm. That is the biggest problem.

Yeah I think um these guys come in privacy is like a very unique weird thing that is not what bitcoin is about at all. Bitcoin goes for the sort of approximate you know approach of anonymity suit anonymity um which is just you know that's a much more realistic approach because IT Carries on with the assumption that you're gonna be in public. It's just try to not identify who you are.

Don't try and op privately where you know everything is known but only to a controlled small group of people that know who you are, know how much big going you have but you trust them not to tell anyone else like it's money. So you necessarily are going to interact with other people no matter what you do. And privacy just assumes IT just basically always comes at the cost of centralization and completely unscalable methodology.

So it's never been a thing that was a part of bitcoin cultures, always been the sort of enthusiastic fringe movement within IT to try and have some sort of privacy there. But it's not against IT either. You can have IT and I I feel like i'm repeating what I might say love show you to be onest, but it's just like the privacy brows that come in.

They never care about desensitization or scalability or anything like that. And access for privacy is a great example of IT because as a bunch of ideological position, he takes on everything that completely unrealistic, always letting the perfect with the enemy of the good. And and that that approach to me is not just it's it's sabotage.

If if i'm gonna be like harsh about IT because it's just not doable, I don't I didn't actually watch the talk I was on after that panel. Um and you also want to introduce me anyway um um but I didn't watch IT because you know I just want 了 这个 prepare myself what I was going to save for mine。 What exactly was the high level points they made about privacy and bitcoin, do you mind? Like running over .

them was like basically the silent payment. He mean he just towed like silent payments and something else.

IT was really focus on what do how you can get privacy. Um that was actually really good talk um and IT was less about even though he's um seems to be a bit of a he's partially a do mor own privacy but then also partially like we just have to do something about IT and partially shick we have to do something about IT you know and that a lot of people just um and silent payments is a huge like I I love the fact that their implementing silent payments and I totally agree with them that I wish that they were the norm because one of the biggest quote, quote attack vectors is just that to publish a address politically, kind of the same as publishing of lightning invoice publicly, that IT has information where you notice and what channel you're paying to um is to just obfuscate that ends like that should be the norm.

And whether you were in A K Y C two steps removed from every transaction or a bitcoin standard like a something like silent payments is such a huge improvement over the general mode of can you connect this address to this person like that's a really, really big um like positive to the point that like you can have to send them bitcoin to try to see if you can get them into wrap IT up with other ut XO to start making connections between wallets and addresses because you just have nothing public to attach to um and there's really simple like on front end obfuscating that we can do this actually a massive benefit um to IT. He he's a little less on he doesn't really agree with the privacy of or that lightning is as private as a lot of people say. And I kind of disagree with some of his argumentation there. Um except that you do also it's kind of like what you said earlier, you you also and have to know how to use IT. If you open up the channel and a node like to you know a bunch of like recently connected um uh nodes and then you do nothing but pay out lightning is a really, really private protocol to use well.

But again.

you can't have to know what you're doing.

Privacy is an amazing on lightning. But yes.

it's just just the foundations .

are there because you only me and you care about what we're doing. I don't need the entire world to know the history of IT and agree on IT, which is what lay ya want is is so that just by its own nature, if I have a part, a channel with you and we just go back and fourth for years in one like economic relationship that no one else is going to know about what happened in that.

Well, okay, if I have just just using, okay, well, i've perceived a relatives large amount of bitcoin from cracking into my into the liquid, you know, second, later portion of maccoll let, which means there was a lightning swap for liquid and liquid has lightning, has privacy things and then liquid has its own extra privacy.

Confidential transaction.

if i'm sending that from if I move that from there on, you know, back on the lighting network or back you like doesn't that I mean, like IT seems like we've got a lot of exchanges that are paying people paying people's unchained fees to withdraw right now. And that's still cheap and doable. But at some point, IT makes sense that they going to need to integrate with something like this, with lightning, whatever, to reduce their own calls and maintain the same amount benefit that they can provide to their customers. And so if this sort of thing becomes the default, don't we get a lot of privacy from K Y C services?

You know there is a uh there was a really good article by the simple x guys actually um which I should I should go back and actually read out on the show talking about the fact that privacy, anonymity and then like security decentralizing and censorship resistant is that these things are actually fundamentally at odds and its wise complex is not trying to be decentralized. It's trying to be private and allow anonymity if if someone wants IT. Um but IT was a really great just explanation of kind of like that being a fundamental very often than a fundamental trade often are those things are kind of odd and lends itself to the idea of like a cash being the a private privacy thing and just explicitly needing the the decentralized trade off um because both of those at the same time can so often be at other each other what gives you privacy gives you a problem with decentralized or security and the advice versa. FAiling it's scaling yeah trying to that's what I mean when IT comes to security .

is no man is a good example, right? It's has privacy take like baked in IT works, but scaling in keeping IT decentralized is just completely impossible and everyone knows that. So it's not going to work and that's why you get the luxury of privacy at the small scale, but you never get IT like that's why I was just not .

attempted in bitcoin with a billion people. The same reason a blockchain is in a payment network. Sure, there are you make transactions on IT, but IT is not a global tail payment network is just never was.

It's is an absurd thing. It's to suggest that the broadcast layer on your land can be a global billion user text messaging network. So like as it's not work, man.

I can see Michael sailor, uh, citing mechanic as his reason for doing his like identity on the bitcoin blockchain thing being like just listen the mechanic, he says privacy impossible. Therefore, my identity product is like really important. just.

I think the is .

sailor might use you as a support .

I don't know. He's like we ve met a few times islands a very quickly was like please don't do what you're doing the way you're doing like it's um I just hate IT like you got nowhere still do you?

The way you doing.

的 stop in you 对 like what there's nothing like， is this the same old oracle thing, right? Like you i've got microstrip. We all create a digital identity within the organize.

We hash dive into a tree and we uploaded that, you know? And now that does something that an email couldn't have, I I don't know what that is like like somehow, instead of something like noster, which works fine for creating digital identities, for some reason, we needed to bake IT into a block chain to prove that. That happened a certain time.

I get that. But there still needs to be an authority on on, you know, the CEO of the companies going to be, yeah ignore that one. That's not the real someone's boost microstrip gies employees create identities. Ignore that just like on nasty you know, there's gonna be like hundreds of people called lin older or guys warm like there's gonna be fake ones and you just have to figure out who the real one is in baking IT into the .

brain .

to be just the first one exactly. Doesn't do anything because it's not scammers can be before you in history, black people go on squad. You know, when blue sky came around, someone went, you know, squatted all the names of famous bitcoin because they like, well, this might be the next thing. Just because they were first doesn't mean that the real one like you know it's that's just part of IT and not being like putting in the blockchain and what is IT you think that's doing? Because like noster was actually made by clever enough people that they were like, yeah trying to upload all the end pubs into .

you Operate on something doesn't do IT um not only does not do anything, but it's suddenly like tones of overhead added complexity that means that you have to have what like a light client node or something in order to start using noster and like publishing this thing and like like for for what like.

And it's also trying to make one network where the the idea of decentralized in the context of communication that way, like it's not a consensus protocol. Like speaking is not a consensus protocol. English is not a consensus protocol.

It's just a protocol so that anybody can communicate. We don't need to stamp our this conversation somewhere in the public square in order for you to be Better or worse or to prove IT or anything. The conversation is between us.

It's fundamentally like we trying to solve the double spend problem because that is an issue that is unique to money and needs to be solved when you doing with money identity does not have the double spend problem IT. That's not how you establish that you're talking to the person you think you're talking to because you already established IT in another context earlier, right?

I know that like you send money to point a and you send the same money to point b, we all agree that I didn't go to point b because he already went to point a but they are both valid, right? Neither them speaks to whether or not do you know i'm saying, like when IT comes to establishing an identity, i'm not going to say, well, i'm gna completely believe, along with the rest of the world, that you are who you say you are, because use this identity happened first. That's not how you establish IT, right?

Like if I get a phone call from you saying your guy and I believe you're not and then I phone the real guy and you're like, that is a different guy like it's a fake guy, not onna. Sit there and go. Well, the other guy was first.

IT doesn't work like that.

but in the context of money, we all agree that the what happened first is what happened. So IT is not a correct application for the job at all.

Yeah, it's using a hamer with screw driver. It's just not not same problem, you know um not but .

I mean, if I running to say that again, like just use all protein like we kind of one span was, I will say that we did because everything is just opper tense now and that was the least harmful way to put spare in the chain. That was the olive branch. So if i'm like, if you wanted do this silly thing with decentralized identities, just you wanna use up return, you can IT won't make any difference to IT.

You just put hashes of the thing in there and everyone has to refer to a centralize oracle for the data that makes up that hash. Sure, that's a trusted thing. But you can still verify yourself that you there are eight thousand employees in this organization.

Here are all their public keys. We hashed them into one digest of forty bites. So whatever IT is, and that's small enough or not, pretend, put IT in the chain.

And then when anyone wants to question IT, they just going look at that one, not perturb. And then you say, this was my identity within that, you can rerun the calculation and you can go, yeah, that hash checks out like, that's fine to do. You don't need to upload the entire thing. You don't .

everyone's .

and a route, man, so you might want to get set self custody.

I don't know. Apparently that is genuinely five teachers, but yeah, apparently. And at the same time, the children horse of IT doesn't work if we keep making up excuses for IT. So we have to treat IT like is genuine. So yeah, it's like a really stupid thing where we have to be like say there's the worst guy ever because he telling people not to self custody. We have to be outraged about IT even though we know he doesn't mean IT so but I thought he doesn't work because IT ah you can't can't play poker if you're telling everyone or if you .

you know by the way we're block yes.

mean that is a tactic in focus about example.

But and what are the chances serie at point based on the next year? Do you think there more like point one percent? You think there are more like .

fifteen or thirty, thirty.

thirty three for a while? I have like as all this etf stuff was coming out and like going basis the center of everything, my thinking was just well, that's going to be the end of the next cycle. Is that going? But I don't know. I might not be this like might be like they're going to scrap at some point. I mean, like the fact that they head to like freeze a bunch of withdraws already points to yeah they're gona screw up like so yeah.

I don't know.

Yeah guess I guess in the context of hack versus just like something going terribly wrong and causing like a serious problem, I say it's like thirty three percent over the next the whole next cycle, like it's pretty likely next year .

specifically have few exchanges that never go that we know .

never .

in like a really, really big way. I think there .

was problem not to be hack. They can blow themselves up.

IT doesn't necessarily have to be a hack like really dumb decisions and leg.

And so I figured IT was like, every time someone successfully .

hacks in this just crashes. So they had. Um dude, so i'm not sure if anybody y's use this. I haven't really gone to play with my V T C B server recently because I had the one in the clown and then switch shit all over to start nine and I really haven't set up my pgc pop back on start nine like I had IT on lunar node.

No, but A B, T, C pay had a bunch of stuff around start to s self hosting and BTC pay. So BTC pay, two point of is here, which looks pretty awesome. They have like a ton of kind of back in changes to kind of streamline IT. Um the interface looks a lot cleaner like they've you've switched everything.

It's only the sibWright as they had this like really they originally hit like that top bar thing and I hated the navigation originally a BTC pay and things are a lot Better with the cyber update, but they still had some of IT in cyber and some of IT up the top. But there were multiple times like in the early interfaces where I just ended the ends that I live. Could you you get back to where I was? And IT was a little frustrating because the software was super powerful, but like really uninspired.

Um but they've really kind of completely overhaul their navigation. Um I have not tested this yet, but they said they have a totally new on boarding flow for like new users and to set up a point of sale, it's supposedly much easier. And also this is another point is like relevant to this is bolt now has a pluggin to accept lightning payments without setting up a lightning node. So basically what is going on with like award wallet and stuff when you get IT straight to liquid even though you give lightning invoices um as you can now just do a plug in and then accept bitcoin or accept liquid straight in a BTC pay and you know you have to know and your customers can select lightning and you just have this integration with bulls, which that's a really that's a big hurdle that's overcome. So a bunch of really cool stuff with BTC pay, uh, very recently in this in this past months, i'm does ever to hear use BTC pay in some former fashion.

I haven't used for a while. But I mean, it's fantastic software. Yeah, like I just is such a beautiful story to find anyone that doesn't know.

It's like twit number two in history like this is lies. I will make you obsol like he did. He absolutely did.

Yeah, I was just fantastic. But I have A I have been having a thought about, know there's been a lot of momentum with zap, right? And like, you know, companies need to keep back in on their baLance.

shit. They do. They need to do IT properly. And i'm like and they act as if like big winners, their own companies like just don't know that they can.

And I think this is like a little bit misleading because I think a lot of bitcoin, bitcoin ers that own companies like their goal is to get their bitcoin off their box now like there. So I, what if I just pay myself some salary by some coin? Take IT off the grid for on my hardware.

While it's like that, I feel like the phrasing of this movement is like, get all of your bitcoin on the books. Let let the government see how much you big coin your own and it's like you do realized that like there's a whole kind of different movement going on where a bitcoin ers are trying to keep their bitcoin off their books right? Like um why are you trying to convince big winners to own companies to like K Y C all of their bitcoin? Like so I don't know. I just feel like that's a little bit like discontinuous with something like zh rod right crowd and know businesses .

get all your people crowd kind of do they make that argument? And i'll just .

say I loves upright as a tool, just it's about their invoicing and and .

I love also just being able able to integrate with like because they're not a custodian or anything is IT like i'm just plug in like I can pug in my vtc pays server into my zabra to like push IT to that is just kind of like a universal invoice thing is kind of like the um um like if I set up my website with example, right then anything that I change on the back end, like if I want to take a create card bore cash APP or striker or whatever, is that I don't have to change anything on the website is I can just direct that to a different thing in sap, right? It's kind of like a obviously tor as to what i'm actually doing on the back end, but my invoicing and everything is universal. But I also agreeing that in the sense that like getting IT put on quote on the books as I got much rather just like, well, well, I shot I should you invoice over little I I droit in our key room and I don't pay IT and I just drop IT in the male year. I got also rather do that yeah it's .

just like you I struggle with with my business because there's always just thinking my head about OK should be a bit coin base business and I should have all my bitcoin on my baLance. I should convert my businesses treasury into bitcoin and then I like when I just pay myself some salary yet that treasury just buy biton off the books like um why would I why would I want sometimes like you could like have a meet .

up and like get people there and you could buy like like something.

Not americans. They are like accepting biton as payment for their business. And like i'm speaking another title american right now, but I just I feel I based at least I addressed that IT might not be you might as a business under what that between off your both instead of on IT. Like just a you know put the full discussion out there.

I just want to point out that wow, around rock was on stage. He was trying to prove how B. T.

C. Pay had just completely designated bit pay. And guy wasn't listening closely. And he like, is anybody here use bitpin?

And guy was like, the only one in the, the only one in the room. Yeah, 我操。 I love me back. Thanks to bring that up jam, right?

But like nobody uses.

nobody does that. I see IT from .

time to time like the mmi sues bit pay.

Actually I used to have the card like a bit pay. The black side stuff was great. I was like afraid that I was going to get charged for, like when obama care that I passed, I had like, I legit had to drop my health insurance and I was afraid they're going to charge my bank account.

So I just close my bank account. And I I like just bought t bitcoin with everything and was using the bit pay card as my bank. And then and then they went, not during the new black size stuff. I got fucked with some cut this up and I found some other solution.

And yeah.

I .

mean, not give up. I forget.

I actually want to go on to sense since we have a BTC pay a major upgrade. But i'll be hub finally came to start to s and I installed IT and mechanics. So you had told me that elen d connect was like amazing.

And I set IT up. I think IT was through lightning terminal, I believe, was the one that was actually doing the Ellen d. connect. And I think IT was sessions who said he was having a similar problem where he was getting like RPC errors and like things just wootten boot up and written load.

But then I did this through, I don't know what magic sauce alby hub has for how they're running IT, but do to a million times Better. I finally kind of feel like I got the feeling of like, oh no, oh yeah, this this totally does work and my node can be my back end, uh, at lugano and I connect IT to it's almost weird because i'm used to I used to having a jump over when i'm on doma. I'm used used to having a jump over to the wallet and then I have to prove the transaction. But now i've just set like an allowance to done this and I have connected the APP and so when is APP is just like done and I always like have this moment or unlike, okay, shift over to the wallet and i'm like waiting for like a confirmation like, oh, no, I is out parties that has done and sometimes i'll just go over now I will go to what the mobile wallet and I have to look at my trains history so I convince myself, no, yeah. I just APP ed, there there IT is my transaction history .

i'm taking out. I'm installing IT right now. I haven't even really excited about IT.

So I want to be great like I can connect individual apps. And I concept is basically what I wanted to do with insect monaker for lightning, which is insect bunker, where you can connect certain clients to your insect. But then you have a policy where you just say, oh, you can only do kind one events or you can only publish this amount.

You can read my dms like this sort of thing um because you are connecting to a central hub that you are setting instructions for so you can piece me out. I can connect like highlighter dot com and then say only do one hundred thousand seats on highlighter like for you know whatever reason maybe don't trust IT very much or its my first time using IT or something. So I can have policies that are um that limit the exposure of my wallet to certain applications ah and I just like run through this whole list and I can connect the whole bunch of stuff and just kind of give myself one taps apps all over the place.

But IT was fantastic。 IT was fantastic. I used IT a couple of times at lugano before, of course, my power blinked off here.

And then I start time, I shut down. And so I lost IT the last two days. I was there and I was very good, but I was working for lessons, and I was superstate about IT nice.

I'm stolen now. I could check IT out as anybody else.

Don't help me up.

I, i've gotta review, like my entire, I have not paid any attention. I start not in a while. I've been just.

I need update .

everything and like, actually I set up some suckers when I couldn't IT, I haven't mess what IT sense. Basically, I was not happy with my section, my wallet connection, to start nine. And I was just like a, well, there is not the sort of solution like I was listening to what you were talking about, like they just not the sort of solution I need right this minute.

I'm just onna, wait until you figure IT out. With the wholesale or whatever. And and then you know and once once is like obvious, what I need to do is all we hope yeah I hope sounds like might be IT. So .

yeah, i'm surprised that Allen see on lightning terminal didn't work for you or sessions. I don't know why because .

that's no I know you were saying that like you had no problem at all with IT and I was like a snap like I don't know IT seemed. And the importantly, the first day that I used that I had no problems, like I was fully import, was like, oh god, this work, this is a fantastic, this is exactly what have been waiting for you for a long time. And then at some point, just like loading, every time I put IT up bizos stick like any circuit open, like i'm just like this there spinning um and then transactions wouldn't go through after IT was almost univerSally that after I did a transaction that worked or I did as that that worked really, really well and really, really quick that the next one get me an r PC error like I was like after I did something successfully IT would now throw back an error. Interesting is weird sweir d ali goes a great mobile wallet, though I don't know if you can connect other stuff to IT, but if you got to have my hub to talk about minimalist, send receive button and a baLance a bit, all man.

when you show me IT reminded me of bread water. And that was like my favorite thing.

Those were the days bread wallet day. That's right.

Was got a high ec quote in the bottom .

of all by hub. Know your audience. You do I don't always retweet a quote on monster, but when I do, it's usually hike.

Um brink receives donation of two hundred and fifty thousand knowledge from the draper foundation so as cool brink does solid work on development and um all sorts things, they are tour project uh also receiving donations and uh power up privacy is uh matching donations three twenty twenty four up to three hundred thousand dollars so that's cool tour project not dead and still very very useful specially for privacy. Bitcoin related wallets in such um would not use IT as a Normal communication mechanism because IT socks and its slow. Otherwise if you're using IT for privacy, it's very nice.

Um a light Spark, okay? This is one we briefly brought up before the show officially started. Lights ark has a new bitcoin alto and IT is called Spark. And i've gotten notices, updates, the universal money addressed standard, which I was meaning to look back into, but I never actually got to do before we started the show here.

But this seems like some sort of a weird middle ground between arc and state chains, because what appears to be happening and i'm gona have to do an episode like really deep diving in into this um but what appears to be happening is it's it's got a service provider just like R C L S P S or anything like that stay change the same um but whether arc has this like really big tradeoff of like every single time a transaction happens, you have to update the connector. Um so you're just batching transactions, which means if you have like one hundred users who were just doing the transaction once a day or once every two or three blocks or something, you have zero is scaling benefit. Like none like you have to have like ten thousand users who are using IT a lot to get like a substantial scaling benefit.

We get a horble o up battle battle IT is not like you have to make blocks. Every single block for no reason is only when a transaction comes in, but you have to update IT even if there's only one transaction, which means you get no benefit whatsoever. But this, interestingly, is some sort of an atomic swap system with the kind of looks like this interesting middle road between channels ends like a big pool um but you're atomic swapping between you and the other user with the S S P, the Spark service provider yeah S S P um which could also be a group like it's a threshold signature um so kind of like a fetid sort of thing with the user having unattentive exit with the time lock.

By I think again I don't know。 I did had no not nearly ena time to actually learn how IT works. But it's really interesting that we have a new entirely new l two with a different construction, very similar to a lot of ones that are out there. But IT actually looks really.

really promising.

just requiring soft ooks. no.

See, this is what I want to see. Doesn't ly and osi fy camp I give up with governance actually? Yeah, yeah. I'm not. I'm curious where everybody is.

I am still on the, I still like C. T V. I still like C.

T. V. And I still like the idea of convenance as basic, primitive. I think I know Steve, he and I have gone back and forth on this a couple of of times. Uh Steve, you in the total osoph's raise your hand, raise your hand around table you .

for osoph's well, I mean office fictions, a strong word. I'm like I think that what most likely outcome is that convenance what kind of just be unused? Um I think there's a different outcome where they get approved and that the scammers finally the scammers find way to use that.

Here's outcome where they get approved and IT does the things people want them to do. But I think the most likely outcomes is just they never happen or they like they happen, but nobody ever uses them for anything. I think that's the are most likely out. Yeah.

I agree. Let me let me grip of that. The the promise of what they can allow for is always in the context of dome stay in aria where we have eight billion people all trying to make their own ut exos. No one can. So everyone results to off chain staff and there's no good solutions without confidence.

That's basically the sort of read and coal should no be you know advocacy position and it's um it's alarming for sure but it's also just so unrealistic that like going to bringing around these unreasoned about changes that we know are being pushed for by malicious actors um is going to have the desired effect like even if even if you of lightning was ten times Better, IT still does not mean anyone runs a node and doesn't use IT in a custodial way. Um like the desire just simply isn't there for people to be you know doing this stuff and much more in the mister hodden camp where he's like just bitcoin is not for everybody. Just accept that it's niche and accept that we are we are the the small intolerant people that will insist on doing everything in a sovereign way.

And when you bring on the masses and the nomes, then they're going to run nodes and use convents to like have these sophisticated beauty X O sharing mechanisms and that's what's really holding them back. That's not IT at all. It's just they don't care.

And when they finally forced to be bit on as they're not gonna na use IT in a software way, they are just going to IT is not the technological thing that's the main blocker. And like sure, back in the block size was I was advocating for small blocks just to make IT easier for people to run nodes if they wanted to. And if that was one thing that was preventing them, well, we can try and minimize that.

But I don't help myself if I pretend that the reason people don't run nodes or use their nodes if they run them is technological in, you know, in motivation is the motivation is just simply not there, regardless of how easy or cheap IT is. People who don't want to take on their responsibility and messing around with bitcoin and adding up codes in the, in the, in the hope that they will become so is, you know, and the the degrees of complexity that they need, like generating a secure bitcoin address and having all your bitcoins you sent there in one U T X O, managing twenty four words or whatever, that's already like a big ask for ninety percent of the planet. Like coming being part of A U T X O sharing system where you're running a bunch of additional software that is relatively untested.

In what universe is that ever gna happen? And I found myself making this awful argument that, you know, the vitality beta in mountain man position of like this is just for no cases, or even silo saying, you know, that's just for cyp to anas any form of self custody. There is truth in both of those positions, right? And it's just it's not going to happen and unfortunately, it's not without a tradeoff, especially things I opt cat like that's ridiculous, right? And you have people up on stage at the gona right now being like, yeah, I like cat and we know cat vms the thing and we know it's being pushed by the wish.

Dds, and it's it's it's unpleasant, but i'm just they're going given all this and given what I know in my experience, I end up back at this position where i'm saying, yeah assif y, but I don't is important to define that time. I don't mean get rid of old janitorial, housekeeping stuff that has to be done a bit and I don't mean but I do mean not adding new up codes and acting like we know all the ramifications of adding them and that we have a hope in hell of the benefits their proponents. Will you use to justify adding IT? And another one little point or make a chat help with Jimmy song in loco.

What he's saying, you know, every time we add these things, we rug all of the the higher up players that are trying to you fully expanded and utilize all of the design space that's permitted by prior upgrades. setton. Tapert is still barely being used when you think about what they permit.

And if when you add stuff, I mean, lightning now has tap route channels or non tap p ro te channels, and that's like, okay, we need three years to properly absorbed the ramifications of adding that. And it's like if you're adding new soft folks and new address types and things constantly IT IT breeds. The wrong mentality is just like what's happening in like code, where it's like new java script frame. Can this that and like a new programing language and is like, look, what if I is to you only to you see and that's IT right. Have fun with that and see what you can actually do with IT.

Um and as IT turns out, you can do everything with that.

You just yeah and it's just the efficiency that breeds like his bitcoin. I'm only given you say with and you got tap put as well. You have to figure everything just based on that and and you can come out and tell me you need three more like red and came up with a proposal is like seven soft folks like seven new overcoat added and i'm like, i'm sorry, do you don't get that? Not with bitcoin. You just don't like if you wanted do that kind of stuff, you can prove IT go liquid or something .

like it's .

i'm sorry.

it's just i'll tell you, here's my case.

I still love to see I would still love to see something like like cross input, signal aggregation or any preval or whatever the like, like the things that we've been talking about forever that I mean, still probably not going to happen. But but like I think IT would be awesome to get some of those things or one or two of those things. And but the upcast of scars of shaomin, the and everybody dies like, no, no, no, we can like, we can prevent like the IT being used maliciously. We can like limit the amount of things you can do.

Sounds a little bit like ad. And yes, like trying to have some limit of .

the computation. And like literally, if you take like what makes a strong password is you know thirteen of character, the fourth character like you expansion ally, like increasing the number of variable, like the number of possibilities. The same thing happens when you add more up codes, like if you add another, especially something like up cat, which can be used with anything like you're now adding another like layer of unknowns that financially increases the number of potential problems. And so I just I don't know why people want to think about IT in that like context um but yeah.

I feel like there there's an argument that liquid has had on cat for a long time and you know notice anything with IT. But I also feel like. There's not really much incentive and nobodies attacking liquids. You know like like right now, it's not quite the best test case. I feel like in my opinion.

Well, this is the other thing is that liquid has existed and has convenience and up. So if there is a use case for another thing we need.

add fuck you on liquid and .

show that IT works and like show that there's demand for the thing and let's do this. Let's do that. And then even .

if you even if you take IT from like the position of there are no unintended consequences to adding our cat and IT has consensus and there will be no drama around activation for IT.

Even that is still saying to the people that work in bitcoin, just don't bother building on top of bitcoin because the design space is gonna keep changing like even that is bad and then you you add insult tool that by just saying the people pushing for cat, I try to do a six tux hostile take jack man makes the just fantastic point. That secretary to ex is basically what happened. Sure, I happened via software, not hardware.

But we have blocks, the two megabit, and we have seat, right? The reason we didn't like secret to x was because of who was proposing IT. And we don't want to set the president that CEO of bitcoin exchanges tell us what the code is.

That was like a political value. IT wasn't a technical value. So the same thing happens if the people pushing for our cat actively malicious attackers, then obviously, we can't accept an upgrade from them like they would be stupid to do IT. So and that just adds to the first point, which is it's just immature to keep adding these things when when not fully utilizing the design space we have available to us. It's immaturity and it's is Young rocky debts that just want to build like and again.

I before thing sounds cooler and actually doing the long term slow or do as work of the last thing yeah you can do so much with what .

pickin is at the moment and trying to add new features being a great example .

already in scot Adams .

book years ago. And engineering will tell you if I ain't broke, IT does not have enough features yet.

yes.

leaving .

alone .

this way and I relearned that. So tell you just able to up multiply. So it's like it's kind of understandable why you disabled division, but up integer multiplication was disabled by a toshi because he wasn't sure IT .

was secure. Yeah like now that's .

a completely .

different months .

of ah yeah no that's a completely .

different month than this ship is being done right now.

I'll tell you, I don't agree with the like. I'm totally get your stance or whatever kind of the framing like doing. People need their own ut XO, and it's not really important in that context.

I think most people won't do IT, but I think about IT in the context of like what would make what would take lightning to the next level and kind of fulfills the vision of lightning in a really in a much more simplified way, like basically decreased the complexity of IT like in the in like multiple times. I have actually used in practice a multi sig wallet with multiple different people. And nunchuck in particular is just awesome for IT feels natural.

You're just like in a chat, you're like art assigned you guys, we need three more signatures and everybody else do things like sweet sign sign and it's like it's paying like messages. IT works amazingly. And all I can think is that from the context of the cyber punks who want to run nodes and want to be able to kind of like be offline at times, and we want to build up with all the new pure to peer technologies, like with whole punch key now pub key in the stuff that they're doing with pear p car.

A oster is small groups of people. We still do not have a construction that makes sense and is simple enough to be safe with channel pools. And a very simplified limited cabinet gives us the ability for the four of us to landing channel where updating is very easy, sharing that back up to what needs to be so that we all have unattentive egg between our devices in a simple, decentralized way is very naive.

IT is not a complex set up, and we can basically run a collective lightning node where we kind of get that benefit of offloading, like where the transaction in payment in lightning, not online or is not on chain. Well, neither is our individual and A A relationship to the U T, X, O. That is on the lightning payment.

Neither is that online is just the the very next step. The most naive way to make that happen is a simple, understandable covenant that is resigned. I mean, basically what lining does we we make precise transaction and we given to each other does IT.

This is just make precise transaction and then lock the um lock the U T X O to IT. So that is really matter if we give IT each other or not. We just don't need just simplify IT.

And that's my reason for IT because IT feels like the natural next step of lightning of of extending the way that we are already developing with a primitive that's pretty damn basic and that we know exactly what locking IT to a payment hash is and how that works to the point that we've created this round about two step function to do IT in all of our l tools right now. Well, what if we could do? And was that like that's my case for something like C T V.

But the fact that it's a soul fork, the fact that we already can come to do IT in certain regards and we don't have in IT, like I think there's plenty of good arguments for why maybe it's unnecessary. We certainly have not fulfilled everything that we could build with the already there's so many tools in the toolbox, but I also IT just feels like that natural next step and could be to the point that I don't think we would ever need anything else. I bitcoin doesn't need a lot in my inie.

Once we can build bridges between you like liquid and lightning or lightning on top of liquid and big like the on top of bitcoin, I mean, couldn't means that we could be still build a wallet that uses liquid to do exactly what you're just talking about, right?

Like I mean, yes, I think as as far as IT seems like I would love to see that, that would be awesome if I had the time and even slightly the expertise to do that, I would totally go for IT. But yeah, and maybe if maybe one of my of the projects takes off IT would be it'll give me the capital to actually do IT well back to back to .

you like whether everybody he's going to want to note or not. I I still part of me still kind of hold out hope that there is you know, the question is, like you said, that a lot of people that run those, they don't using them. And one of them, I mean, I have used nodes often on for a long time. And I like bit ut and .

I actually use my simple. I just want everybody to know that because i'm very proud of that. And you should think of me is Better than you because I use my mental that space.

I've use my own mental that that using my simple is actually is actually one of the things that i've done more of on this than anything else. But but like I don't I go back and forth. I don't not I don't have any money.

I think on my start now right now and and I have had I have, you know up to use bitcoin Q T. And sweat the dresses and did all sorts of technical now that i'm not like capable of using this stuff. But the easier IT gets, like, I like, even though I know how to use a wallet, is more technical. I D like bread wallet. You know, i'd like I have like alby hob or whatever, like something that is just stupid, simple I don't want to think about, makes life easier to non shock is fantastic.

Like like, so if we can get things to the point where a bunch of know you can buy a device and just like, no, it's the same sort of argument like is that you if you told everybody what you had to have to connect to the internet, you know, like in the eighties, whatever, like in the future, you're gona have a thousand other computer and you're going to have two hundred and router, and you going to have a two total people like all these things. This sounds fucking and ridiculous, but there's so much value in. If you're business, you want to control your own money, right? Like so.

And my hope is that there will be enough incentives for people to an and enough tools that make IT easy that that people will want some sort of sovereign. And whether that's on liquid or on bitcoin or some mix of you like Spark chains and lightning, what you know whatever like like whether it's some next the side chain nodes and we just have software that is kind of comes, like you just click download and IT kind of runs. And like the easier we can make IT, the more likely we have people doing things that actually you improve.

There's that. I mean, it's like keep right, like keep a perfect example, like every there's a lot of people that would like to be more private in their social media or like they like have a Better way to communicate with people. And keep finally makes IT easy enough to like to communicate with people in a like pretty sovereign way, in a private way without, you know without having to have any sort of you don't want to know head to run a server or anything else right?

Yeah that and that sort one of things that um like I feel like the the goal or the kind of incremental improvements is just lowering the barrier, injure to do doing the next thing and I feel like and this is this is something that i'll talk with people Better to be like, oh, whatever you can always do this, you can always do peer to peer stuff. You could use f FTP server.

You can just punch you in the command line and like, IT always drove me crazy because I was like, no dude, like you're talking about like like just look at the technology that actually made stuff happen, like that actually, like, moved the needle on stuff. Youtube created an entirely new market with, like, hundreds of millions of content creators because of how vastly IT lowered the berrier entry to publishing something. But that was IT just lowering the barrier to entry.

And from the context of something like like right now, the barriers to entry, in my opinion, are like lightning service providers and running a node for you or your friends. And I feel I actually feel like noster and key, the pair stack. Are kind of like the biggest tech note, not even big coin cell forks or anything.

They're really kind of the big things to lowering the barrier entry to barrier to entry there because IT allows you to run a server without servers like without D N S, and without like the complexity of setting up like website, you know, web hooks and like all all of these different things and apps and all of this stuff is you can start like dam. Dam is a great example, actually, 嗯， is, you know, what did you do? You made IT so that people could just run IT and IT works. You know, like, you just made IT two steps to go from soren to sothern.

This is a good point, man, because i'm trying, like every wants to know the comparisons with S V two. And i'm like, alright, how hard can that be? I'm going to a set up S V two and trying to mind that way.

Like first of there's no pool the there's no pool out there that has S V two that will allow you to make your template tes locally like you have the lottery mine if you wanna use the the job declarator and second off, I couldn't figure that out like I when I stalled us, I did all the things I have to do, and I tried to get the thing running. And IT doesn't run IT just looks like every other abandoned where experimental project that no one is actually seriously gna run like that. On works you're download the binary if get help, you can pile IT yourself if you want using sea make thought slashed battle on the score gateway and IT works and IT sits on top.

Yo, bitcoin node. IT works as well as a lightning node, right? Like it's a thing you run. IT needs R, P, C, credentials and IT grabs templates from an a bitcoin node.

And I figured out really quick, it's just written in a way that people are actually going to use this, right. And now seventy percent of the block ocean finds out that blocks where the minor made a template ate. And it's real like, i'm sorry, S V two is just not gonna get there.

And I hate IT when people on paper this is all possible with mutant things on in practice it's only going to be used by one. The people actually meant IT. So um you know that kind of comes comes against my anti convenance position right right?

So you can do IT all and bit as is right now. But is we're asking debs to build stuff on bitcoin as IT is right now. We're not asking norms. You we're not asking me to to go ahead and developed these new interesting ut XO sharing things were asking deaf ths to get interesting and creative and use the minimum resources they have in the minimum know the minimal amount .

of primitives thing in out even further for more things.

Hello, before the post from blue that showing how easy IT is to a music has been too to connect .

three minus thirty second.

Well, it's just not four man. It's just like, I want to do IT. I want to run IT and look like, Frankly, lucas said, you know, S S, V two is hopefully where we all converge like we need IT down and we needed IT now.

So we built IT. IT was quick and IT works. It's quick. I wouldn't call IT quick and dirty because it's really slick.

But is doing what is is doing what needs to be done. There are don blocks being found like every two days now, which is awesome. And this been a radical improvement to things. If S V two just gets Better and Better and Better and becomes realistic, we're going to incorporate IT um when the firm wear .

upgrades on minus to having IT, of course support the other.

we'll incorporating once the wilder ecosystem uses even that. Um but like at the moment, S V two is is demand pool, which only allows you to lottery mind. So calling a pool doesn't make a lot of sense.

Um like pool is kind of being used as eufemia for will run a strat themselves for you. Where's pooling really refers to the splitting of rewards. So if that's not happening, then you you're not doing the primary function of what pull is and is being used by brains because brains make their own after market.

O S. For ant miners, that actually does use S V E too. So if they get the encrypted communications, they get improved centralized template construction. And the irony with brains is that they just use animals template. Tes, as far I can tell, which means that doing the very opposite of what, you know, the decenter, everything with strap v to approach is the is only manifested on one pool that not only doesn't allow minus I tempt construction, the pool doesn't even create template. Tes, IT gets bit men to do IT, which is like the worst thing you could do ever like this kind of point, is to stop bit man .

being the centralization theater, rather than actually like demonstrating the the solution to the problem, like and really good books.

But still, if the ita N S V two gets good enough and it's just the opens down the wheel use, then sure that time becomes a thing that was like, oh, well, that was a waste time that actually gave us a year of miners making their own templates and you showed IT could be done like if that ends up me in the case so be at I think we'd d all be happy with IT.

Um it's not got a time like a long fight um but I just don't think the S V two world really has IT. And like then h interestingly, this is from in laguna. There was an educational thing before the main conference there was A I don't know if they called the themselves plan b as well, but this the guy, alex, the french guy who like does teaching stuff in itself the door and and and but yeah that, you know, there was a presentation. I did one on data. Uh S V two guy did won and brade pool guide did warn and like, this is just amazing to me because there's a lot of people that think brad pool is like in of the real solution here that like ocean is still in a is still as trusted third party in a central point of failure and know that .

even if we get minds great pool like .

peer to peer or something well yeah but it's like it's it's unbelievable on paper IT does everything it's like insanely complicated um and I don't think anyone's under any illusions that is like an easy quick fix but there are holes in IT and the one I didn't realize was that they hadn't taken into consideration. The miners can make different template aes. How do you deal with that? I was like, so right, all this looks great.

What happens if i'm making a crappy template and someone else is making a really lucrative template? What do you do with the rewards split? And then I oh well, our assumption that there was been to everyone would just make identical template based on the metal.

And i'm right this that that's know how any of IT works like you have like this is the main issue. Like an ocean right now is like, what do we do with different template? Tes, like this minor wants to mind three hundred kilo bite blocks.

That guy is marple, and he has a bunch of out out of band, incredibly lucrative spam transactions that are even known to the wider network. How do you Normalize shares like they can't be getting the same, right, right? But what do you do? And that's just that's like the the fundamental problem to decentralizing template ate construction in a pull context.

How do you decide who is worth what? Because you can't stuff people come along in mind empty blocks, just control everyone else and get the same split for the each of their shares. So how do you do IT we go spreading y on her with the trade offs of each and every idea? And it's uncharted territory.

especially with a peer to peer pool like that's just gonna tons of problems with that because somebody can go and just to calls like just to be just been asked .

yeah I mean they they do leverage the proof of work that's already being done to light establish you know to prevent certain grief ing attacks. So if like that is the sort of low hanging fruit that they'll always appeal to. And that's a good approach, of course.

Like if you're seventy percent of the pool, you don't get to IT this, that is civil resistance out of the gate, right? Because you have you can't fake the proof work you're doing as a minor um so it's a good idea. I actually like great pool, but I just the when I was like what you do about different template es and I like good question. I'm like wo .

you didn't .

have an answer for that. That like this is all i've thought about for a year now. Like if you centralization messy, so you have to put safeguards on IT and all of them are bad in one way or another.

And if you don't do IT, that's the worst of everything. Because then, you know, the big centralized guy comes along and minds awful blocks and gets paid the same as everyone else. All your mind ders are making fifty percent of what they were expecting.

The pool dies like that, just just out of the gate. Your dead, but every single solution to IT sucks. So like, I mean, I was saying at the begin of option like this is decentralized, even like, well, what about this? And like, yeah, you're gonna hate IT.

You will be surprised how much people like centralization when IT means a parent controls everything and make sure you will get the maximum t of money. You've surprised them how used to that people can get. And that appeals to bitcoins, old game theory, which is, don't worry, every minor will seek to earn the most amount of the most amount possible, so all the temperature will be jam.

Pact to a transaction, please, no matter what does naive man, it's only one share at the end of the day of some minds and empty block deliberately that's one share like is no skin off there is block withholding barely cost mine as anything and IT kills pools in seconds. Like technically there is a financial incentive for a minor never to do that. But it's so little when IT comes to the money they lose by doing IT.

And it's so damaging to the pool. That is that the asymmetry between the cost to the attacker and the cost to the, 嗯， you know, the attack is just a it's like a fundamentally unsolved problem. But people are going to use pools even though pools can be attacked. So what can you do? I actually .

talked about this with, I mean, wasn't quite in this context, but the conversation, the fireside chat, which H I guess should be up up sometime soon, I don't know. They are going to the video of IT. They're editing in sending IT to me but I dive with the whole punch guys with the math intosh Andrew and on the talk um I mean IT .

was IT was really good and David um but one thing we talked about .

was time out for once second about politics quick so .

are yeah we have .

to specially requested to comment on is an IT okay, well.

this rage quit okay. So what are there's an election, there is an election and that soon .

think .

I think elections are more damaging to society .

than hrk anes actually fuck yeah worse than the worst silly version of climate change out. And is are there .

is the political system manipulating the her canes? I don't like this point.

Know, like lunch of antennas, what they got those antena for.

Otherwise this is whether .

more of computer and pretty.

Totally not a game.

Know what? IT takes .

all types. So what does do take some time sometimes. You know, it's the rest of the things that I have .

up here is another stupid dumb then elen hance.

which we already talked about, south fork and stuff and that's basically convents and C C S F S and those source of things um so we can we can I think we hit major news items that like I was at least concerned about so let's go to let me talk about first the the thing about the whole punch guys um is ah they talk about that is is how much like we have to like slowly etch a way at that, like centralized framing that like our mental frame is still to just centralized to solve the problem and how difficult that is to get out of that mindset and and also to realize when a tool does solve one of the problems is not even realizing how I can be used.

I kind of like in IT to my the first time that I realized that I had um like the first like six months that I had a smart home and I had the internet. My pocket is how much I had to relearn how to how to do things because suddenly I could look something up by we didn't have to have those questions anymore where you know you you're just off hand having some conversation or something. And you're like, I wonder where the origin of bt came from.

I wor, what's the origin of that word? Like, all know. And then you like, you have the internet. You're like, why is second, I can look IT up. And then the same thing we like, maps and stuff, is like, I had to rethink what the tools actually enabled, granted. Now I just want to go back to the time where we couldn't look up stuff.

but computers were a stay.

where there were, where there were mysteries everywhere. But like this saying thing.

like if you get a three d printer like and and you have to actually learn, it's like, yeah it's like, okay, I can solve this a new of whole bunch problems I can solve now, but you have to know when you can solve them, how easy IT is and like, and you have to compare that too. Like, well, I was like, everybody wants to use the tool sometimes wrongly, like IT.

Maybe it's just easier to bend a little piece, bend a coat hanger and know, solve a problem rather than to go and draw something in three d printing. Do you just like like not only had to learn how to think with the tall, but you also have to learn how IT relates to all the other tools already have. And so, you know, like you get the central like again, it's like it's like the like they said, like you have a whole bunch of tech guys that have been brought up in this like server centric like world and they think that you just can't do what you're talking about doing and just not you know, they can't break out of the thought of that framing.

Look, has cove IT. Sorry, you just sent me a positive code.

Oh no.

he does not. Governments and works, that governments works. But he should take IT.

He totally, he totally should. He had actually part really.

I do you anything when I took IT really.

really.

that's interest to help me a difference for me.

The only thing that helped me was like being really warm, like I was, I was in mexico and I was like, kind of winter and I was like, no, I don't need a blanket. I was sleeping with this like thin sheet every night and I really as was like cold and then like, yeah, it's mexico. I need to actually stop telling myself that i'm not feeling cold because I mean, mexico somehow it's freezing. So I got like a thick blanket, slept for like twelve hours, and woke up like, like forty percent. But I finally.

I have like, twenty percent Better.

Yeah, I was like, now turn to corner. I'm actually gonna like, build a recover from this thing, but let you guys .

finish on. I got to head out. I got some hotel rooms. I got to break into.

what's your last words? What's your last word?

Takes most?

Are you rap?

No, yeah, i'm never voting. Takes most time, right? For Michael sailor. And I guess.

yeah, no. Takes, takes all. Guys, super.

yeah. yeah. Thanks, guys.

Thanks later, man.

I mean.

I said, what would rap this up with just a little talk on the election is let's talk .

about politics.

I was thinking of driving down to seattle, voting for to someone just for fun. Not in america, of course, doesn't seem very much.

So do you could do that and record the process? IT would be IT would be like a wonderful, like.

I would actually be a great series.

yeah. Should I do? IT, hey, guys, down to amErica today to vote do .

not be amazing. No, there was A, I think IT was you on posted a map of those states that do not require any sort of voter I D not even a non picture. I D like a library card with your name on IT um and you can just go and you can just vote and is like uh as like five states were in the grey there are like three different is like a color coating of like how what you had to have to to vote and I was funny because like all of the states that were gray were also bu blue states in the context of voting .

here you haven't had have an ID previously but you had to give your name and then they have confirmed that OK and part yeah and so is that is IT just that they don't require anything in some of these places like you don't have to have a name or anything you like. You like we know that dead people have been voting too, but you know like they have to like give like whatever you know invalid voter person, you know a name of a dead person to say or .

I don't know naming and .

I heard is IT pakistan or something when you vote, they dip your finger in this like purple die that like takes a few days to come off like just .

I am like purse I am or something just make sure that's funny you .

try and vote again sorry, you got purple finger like .

we know urban .

think is like the simple of the attack the more reliably is minute voting machines and i'm done like even if IT was open source, that wouldn't .

even fix IT almost oh my god. The idea of sort by tary electronic voting machine drives me crazy like no, do that's that's a hundred present bullshit. Like I would have a trouble trusting an open source one.

Just like you said, like your machine, you you still just can't verify IT. But regardless, the software, the whole machine is closed source and proprietary by a government contract company like no, no, no, no, no. Are you fucking insane like .

the digital counting machine from the same fucking problem? Like like if you have a thing where you're .

feeding vote, remember there's not the wrong with paper ballots. There's no we don't need to fix paper ballots.

No, but that's what i'm saying is if you feed a paper ballot into a thing that counts them, that's also just as bad like because you can expect that .

you can at least check IT later that that is that you can hand verify yeah whether or not the machine is telling you the truth. And if you but like using a close source, propriete punched in an electronic button as to who I was voting for is like literally is literally like saying we are going to put all of the we're gna, let's say we do paper ballots, we'll do a paper ballots analogy. We're all going to do paper ballots.

We're all going to put them in boxes. We're not going to look at them account in beforehand. We're going to give IT to one guy, and then that guy is going to give us the number of votes that we're there.

And then they are going to set every one of the fire. And then we know, and we have verified because the guy is super trustworthy and he gave us the number. That is what using a close source propriete electronic about the machine is. And if you don't get that, you either a liar or you're stupid. And just one know how computers .

were and when he goes in the room to count all he has an internet connection to.

by the way. Yes, yes.

yes. Like they found a bug, right? And they shipped, they patched IT, they hot patched IT on my okay. So these machines .

are literally for medications.

So sorry, i'm just .

but it's I don't know like it's.

The theory is that you can only rigger IT so far, and then if you like, over the top rigged, then somehow that trigger a mess, you know, civil disappearance event or something like that.

But yeah, I don't think it's gonna happen like I little ally think conservatives are just take IT and they'll just feel like .

they are all family men with kids men they don't want to do like at the end of the day like and you know we'll be something like come on is great is ri ever when you'll have like forty thousand views and then joe rogan will go on sorry to go forty million? Yes, yes, to be fair, a lot that is the rest of the world. sure.

But like you, you know it's it's unpalatable and just completely unacceptable to me. And even speaking from like the perspective of someone that thinks it's all the show anyway and there's no real you competition, I have no time to winter. I don't like camera .

and A I was certainly are voting for kala .

do trump is way more entertaining? Like actually like fun I want like I can has got zero sense of humor .

like just .

stupid corning phrases like if if you just want entertainment without you trump ney to win for sure well.

and do I just can't like dick chaining and bush supporting fucking kala like what more evidence do you need that this is not .

have a less faith in liberals principles of anything? If these prints, for all the times that I had agreed with them and that, like I saw, I was like, man, they're right, like the ants, I war stuff and all of these positions that the, you know, my body, my choice, and how quickly and completely they just trample on this ship when IT isn't some specific issue, or just when the political wins like commodo gy says, have totally different position on fracking and on immigration and everything just completely changed IT and all liberals are like, okay, sure, sure, whatever, sure, whatever.

Like did you have? Did you believe any of the shit, any of IT that you were saying? You know.

like the nineties or the united early two thousands, like bush in china worthy IT? Like the they were, they were hitler, right? They were the is like of the democratic party and now they just we're the same team.

The left used to be anti war. I just don't like they literally used to be anti war. And that's when I was like, okay, yeah this like that's when I when they were right, you know and I was just like realizing what an absurdity, you know, the my period of going republican was and how absurd my my framing of everything was. And then I just like, these people are just can Bakers they'll just blockers with like a different .

coat paint.

you know .

yeah they got no interest watching all the bands like rage against the machine and all that turn into we're .

going to .

be punk rock for the establishment like what the book like. I just first you .

do what they tell you.

你 不。

it's awful. It's line of shoot, like just that does my ad man like I don't I don't I don't know this any I think IT is identity. Like people will say i'm a democrat or i'm a republican, which is ridiculous.

Like you are not. That can be an identity, a political party. That's ridiculous.

That's just complete. You can't like they're going to change. The politicians that represent them are going to change.

And your own self description is gonna mean that you, you know, you require yourself and justify your own positions and try and reconcile everything to fit with you. Your preconceived notion of who you are. This is like fundamental to help nosis. Like if you tell someone, i'm notice if someone says i'm a smoker, like that's an identity, right? So you can give up, but you're still a smoker that just gave up and you'll start again because you're a smoker like it's that that identity thing is like rule number one and how you change your behavior. So if you're going to identify as a republican, IT doesn't matter what the party turns into, you're gonna be that saying with democrats like i'm a liberal, i'm a democrat that will completely reverse the definition of everything that those things once meant and you'll you'll just go with IT because it's is literally you that's changing. Not you know you're not staying conclude with any of the principles that made the thing what IT was and when someone comes along some annoying like kid like me, that's like, so you you standing side by side with bush and blair and chain and whoever the heck like these are people we marched in the streets against over the iraq war.

And these are the people totally fine with .

because their anti trump o is literally hit learn a nazi, even though there's just absolutely zero evidence of that whatsoever. It's literally at this point the connection is patridge sm or any sort of element of your national pride. It's all just racist to you and all completely unacceptable.

He's a mass genus of racist. He hates mexicans. All of these things that are just made up essentially .

so wild they don't even know what policies were put in place like like his his area or muslim ban, like travel ban. Exactly the same policy that obama head during one of those like bombing campaign and or something and it's like, so so wait me, it's only racist when trump does IT like, I don't you know, like they will just use anything.

And the only time they were ever nice to trump is that the one week that he was bombing, he dropped the the mother of all bombs, whatever the mob on afghanistan or whatever IT was. And like then then they were done by all. He's so presidential and it's like, like, does nobody fucked? And remember that like, like what they were doing last week and know, and I don't know, even the crazy thing about IT is that even the libertarian party has tried to do this like they have like nicks or what, who I think was just a fucked in government plan anyway.

Like he was like the leader of the libertine party for a while but like he actually said something like, know we need to support whoever the liberty an candidate is even if they don't like matter our principles or something and dave Smith was like, wait, wait minute and so if like if hitler, it's like somehow wins the libertarian nomination, you think we should just support well yeah mean, like we've got to get behind whoever IT is and like, I can't remember who was talk him out at the time, but I just so OK. So we don't need to have any principles. We just need to online with the party like we we need to Denny needs to be the party.

You know, this is, I don't know what happened to guy. He's gone just me. And you know.

yes.

this is a bit coin out table.

Yeah, right, right. Well, let jump off because i'm stop in anyway is always good to see you. That was a lot of fun and going.

I do. I had the breakfast for my favorite. I think every time .

coffee with bitcoin is in a hotel is like, that is literally my happy placeman the scrambled eggs with good too. So IT will that i'll spit. You may have a good name.

All right now we had to cut that one off at a awkward place because I got disconnected, because my computer, I had a seizure and everything shut down. And I spent like a good. They waited around.

I got to tell you if, if we find any good stuff because we've recorded the private conversation between mechanical and jeff that was left over when I disconnected, and i'm pretty sure they had like really wonderful things to say about me. So we're going to pull out the the hits of when they probably thought they weren't being recorded in that we wouldn't published IT. And we're going to share you know, i'm just give IT to the audio notes.

I give you the practice the after everything screwed up and we were trying to salvage the invite show to the audio. Not so keep IT I out for that. If you're in the key group or you're in the telegram group, I will have to published for you guys so that you can listen to the lovely ranting and a all all of the things that we talked about before the show when we should have been talking about IT on the show.

But yeah, I feel like we wrapped IT update up. Pretty good mechanic lobs kala think she's a genius, very consistent and has definable and reliable belief system. Also, a great laugh, just a wonderful laugh. And Jeffery is definitely voting for trump because mostly just because of the overwhelming entertainment value that he can provide for our country. But also, I know jeffrey is very, very own born and very excited about his terf policies.

I really feel like IT doesn't matter who gets elected, becomes going to go up because trump seems very favorable able towards bitcoin and it's likely to have a much Better regulatory landscape with a trump regime in office where as kala, I think I would actually go up because people would be afraid of what the healthy banking system and rules are going to be and how bad inflation is going to be, and they would also be buying bitcoin out of fear of what the regime is going to do. So I don't think IT matters a whole lot. You know, it's one thing interesting that I I have learned in the bull bear market years, I guess, for three cycles, four cycles now in bitcoin been around for a long time.

And one thing that I have noticed when you're in the bear market like so much of this is really about liquidity and broader long term sentiment and how long IT takes to shift from one or the other. So one thing that i've noticed this is just something to kind of keep in mind is that during a bear market, good news doesn't matter. IT doesn't really do anything.

IT doesn't help if there's ever just a short term blip doesn't matter, is just everything is negative. However, in the reverse, when we are in a hype cycle, when we're in a massive expansion ary and growth phase for the network, bad news IT doesn't matter. In fact, bad news often helps IT because it's like one of those things that people just realized that how external to the system is or maybe it's not even got anything to do with them like i'm probably just projecting on what I think other people think about IT.

But IT just doesn't matter. Bad news doesn't hurt IT when we are in a massive bowl market because it's been the last three years that put us in the bull market and its lack of its inability to just die and go away and IT keeps growing. That finally just kind of beats itself through people's heads.

That man, maybe I should actually have a little piece of and we go to this over and over and over again, and here we are, seems like back again, freezing up through seventy three thousand or freezing up into the seventy thousands and making its way back to all time high. And honestly, I think we're just going to keep running, just going to be a slow and steady will have some little Spikes like volatility will start to increase a little bit. But I still think he will be a little while before IT gets really serious.

But I think it's really important to consider the exponential, consider the the size and era that we are in now. I think it's probably within the next year did we will see a twenty and maybe even thirty thousand candle, thirty thousand dollar candle on maybe the daily, the weekly like it's it's going to be it's going to get wild. It's going to really big and really crazy.

And I think just important to prepare yourself because everyone is going to be talking about IT. It's know when this happened last in twenty, twenty and twenty twenty one. There was still a lot. There was overshadow wed and two thousand and seventeen was kind of the days when big one was still just seen as like kind of a joke.

And I really think that something that has changed in the framing for where we are going to be this cycle, I believe, is that this will be the cycle where you start to look questionable, where you're reputation and your legitimacy starts to just kind of wing a little bit. If you can't realize that bitcoin isn't a joke and that there is something very significant here, I think that's slowly just going to be the known people are going to realize that bit. One is here, but I think that's what this cycle is.

It's the big one is here and it's not going anywhere cycle. And I don't know what that means, but um it's certainly going to be really interesting. So that wraps up a tober.

And if all men, we didn't talk about pop key, that sucks, right? I'll have to do an expo on this. And they will use this as kind of foundation round table. And we will have a much Better foundation on a lot of these things because there are a number of things that happened at plan b and lugano that we did not cover as far as just kind of announcements and things that I learned about for the first time.

So we kind of take the opportunity to explore those for the month and then come back with round table number four to wrap up november and get everybody's thoughts on the new tech. And I learn how Spark works, and i'll let you know. But with that, let's get out of here.

I'm done. I'm sick of this. what? What are you still doing here? Man, this is, oh my god, so long.

Okay, check out the affiliate and a links. God, you guys got to try. Hold a lot.

Man, you all really need to try that game. And there's a discount code I think is like ten percent. I I can't remember but there's discount code down in the show notes.

Um we're trying i'm actually working with Scotti to uh, I hope should I say that? I know never mind. Sorry about that. You should check out the week in games because they really, really cool and you should play with them with your family because IT is a fantastic way to learn bitcoin and no, they're not educational games. They're actually phone.

But uh also don't forget to check out like if you want to buy bitcoin, use my links is a great way to help out the show and IT doesn't call anything, and I just literally put the links for the services that I like to buy bit with like these, the ones that are use the same with all the affiliates. I just kind of went around to the things that I like. I get a lot of questions about a guy I do you know thing that does this, the ones that were most fresh in my mind, those ones I went to get so that you just going to have a easy resource right down there in description um and also an easier to support the show.

So thank you. Thank you so much. And I will catch you on nester on as still in next everyone's a while and i'll catch you on the next episode of the one order table until next time guys dead easy.