Ben and David on "This Week in Startups" Holiday Special
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Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of not only This Week in Startups, but I am officially welcoming Ben Gilbert and David Rosenthal's amazing audience.

Pretty sophisticated audience, I would say, based on the slack that I'm in at Acquired FM. Yes, this is a collab, a collaboration. All the kids are doing it on the YouTube. David and Ben, welcome back to This Week in Startups. J-Cal, welcome back to Acquired. Is this your first time doing a collab?

oh this what is this episode like six seven we've done together you guys are now in like the rankings of most on the show seventh episode together yes who else is on that leaderboard who we uh who we have to battle here brian alvey uh who was my best friend from high school who i did weblogs inc which has been on a lot of times there's some people on the news roundtable like molly wood's been on a couple times yeah i'd say the news roundtable uh alex wilhelm

It's been on. All right. So some formidable competition. Yeah. You're, you're up there. Zach's been on six or seven times. Yeah. Zach Coleus would be on a lot. Cause he does ask Jason and Zach because I find like there's some people I just vibe with. And obviously Ben and David, you're two of those folks.

If you don't know about Acquired.fm, where the hell have you been? Go to Acquired.fm and sign up for their elite $100 subscription product in addition to their free... Do you do... Yeah, Jason, we have big news. Yeah, we changed the model a little bit. So we started releasing all LP episodes for free after two weeks. Because we had such awesome guests that we were like,

you know what? If people want this information in a way that they're going to do something interesting with it, two weeks is plenty of time. Um, but,

you know it's incredible guests they're saying incredible things it's a shame to lock it up for just a couple thousand people so that's always been the problem i've had with the paywall and the market for advertising is so vibrant right now for podcasting at least you can't say that about blogs or other things so yeah i think it's a good decision we we started playing with the you know um

paid concept on patreon whatever and i was just like you know this is like an antithetical to my personal brand of founders don't pay and my audience is founders mostly you know some investors and some tech enthusiasts but mostly founders and i just they've got a hundred bucks or no offense you have a lot of capital allocators so a hundred bucks is just like whatever i just want to put the show i'd rather they put it towards their startup or something so well congratulations it was much more about about the well au is people who are paying us some people were paying for the content uh

But it was a minority. Most people were paying because they liked us, wanted to support the show. They wanted to support the show. And then be part of the community. We do monthly Zoom calls with our paid LPs. That's very cool. We get to hear about their crazy NFT exploits in the last six months. Oh my God. I mean, we... I don't know when the last time we got together was, but we have not really...

When was it? I think it was right before your Italy trip. Oh, right before Italy. Okay. So it was August. Yeah. Oh, thanks. I've lost 20 pounds since then. You were looking good. You were seriously looking good. You know what happened was David and I were talking and like, I don't know if you remember this all in where somebody had a picture of us on the golf course in the middle of pandemic in Cabo. Cause we had done this, like, I mean, David had basically gone AWOL and it was kind of like a, I don't know if you guys ever watch a

apocalypse now like colonel kurtz goes like into the woods and like he goes kind of crazy so like david sax is missing and so people are like hey david's kind of lost it in the middle of the pandemic he just went to cabo can you go retrieve him and i'm like okay so i you know it's middle of pandemic i fly down private to cabo i find him in cabo and he's like literally he

Yeah, he's kind of like, I don't know about this pandemic. Is this the end of the world? He's kind of, you know, on edge or whatever. He's like Colonel Kurtz. He's basically gone Colonel Kurtz. You're going into the heart of darkness. I'm like, you can't live this way. You've got funds, you've got family, you've got friends, you've got the poker group. You've got to come home. David, you've got to come back to the bay. You can't stay in Kabul for the whole pandemic. So I brought him home. But anyway.

There was a picture of the two of us on the golf course. And I'm like over 200 pounds. He's pushing whatever. And we started doing all in together. And then, of course, fat jokes. We just fat shame each other incessantly at the poker game. But you can't do that anymore, can you, Dave? You're not allowed to fat shame. I have the picture ready to pull up if you want to see it. I mean, no, I don't want to see it.

I think it's okay if you do it yourself. Oh, wow. There we are. I mean, there are... Well, I mean, you're kind of leaning backwards. We're sucking it in there. We're sucking it in. We're working the angles. I'm all in black. He made the terrible maneuver of putting all white on. And he's like, why are you wearing all black on the golf course in Cobb? Slimming. Slimming, exactly. Why do I wear black all the time? Slimming.

I love that we're looking at it through a screenshot of a Zoom background while Sax is talking over it. It's a very 2020 version of this photo. It's peak pandemic. Yeah, that's a peak pandemic approach there because you can see the aliasing around the thing is just terrible. That's when Zoom just started that feature. Yeah. So we look really fat. And so we were fat shaming each other. And all of a sudden I noticed he's getting thinner. And he's talking about his weight loss. I'm like, oh, God. Anyway, I'm 176 this week every single day.

Congratulations. What's your secret? Trainer? Peloton? No, I stopped working out actually. Because what I found was in the research, if you're working out and you have a serious amount of weight loss, which I did, I was over, I was 198 or 199 was my peak this year. I'm 176 now. So I've lost over 20 pounds this year.

When you're that fat and overweight, I'm sorry, obese, whatever, if I'm triggering people, but I consider myself a fat bastard. You were not happy with where you were. I was, if I'm being totally candid, Ben and David, I was very disappointed in myself that I could be so successful at anything I tried.

With the exception of weight loss. And it was like embarrassing to me and frustrating to me because I would lose 10 pounds, 15 pounds, and then 10 pounds, gain it back, 10 pounds, gain it back for 10 years. And it's just basically I was a marathon runner who stopped running marathons. And so my metabolism, you get older and then I kind of forgive myself. You gain a pound or two a year. That's not a lot. And you do it for 20 years, you're going to be overweight. So that's exactly what happened to me. Anyway, I just went down to 1.5 meals a day. That's it.

It's just literal starvation. Uh, and yeah, it's, it's not fun, but thermodynamics, you know, are, are a fact of the universe. And, uh,

What's that? There's some quote. I lost a bunch of weight when I was in college and I remember some quote. Were you fat? I lost 40 pounds my senior year of college. You were fat. And I've been about the same. Yeah. I mean, depends on definition, but I wasn't happy with how I was. I mean, you're definitely in the obese category, which is 30 BMI or more plus 30, 40 pounds. I mean, no, I was obese too. You get the sense that David was never obese.

But there's like those phrases like... When I was a little kid. David actually played football in college. That's a long story that we don't have time for now. Let's do that on the next twist collab. So how did you lose the weight then, Ben? Very similar. I cut all carbs. But at the end of the day, I think it's kind of a... You know, it's a calories game. It's a calories game. And then I've done a bunch of research about this online. It turns out when you have fat on your body, there's all these...

systems in your body that when you have fat, your body, which is, you know, an operating system from, you know, that's tens of thousands of years old, just says, oh, there's fat on your body, put more fat on. You got to keep that because it's obviously the winter. So let's keep it on. So your body basically just makes you ravenously hungry to try to keep that fat on. When you get like 10 pounds off, it's like, oh, something's going wrong here. Put more fat on. So your body actually actively starts fighting you when you hit that like minus 10 point. So you really have to just break through. And then once you break through, you're good.

So David and I both broke through and it's been great. I mean, he's 168, he told me, and he started at 192 or 94. So we're both on the exact same journey and we're going to do like a weight loss...

program and then start selling it for like you know whatever i'm in sending the dvds 149 dollars or something me and him doing aerobics third fourth leg of the uh launch empire stool you're launching wait this is good so we we want we jump let's skip ahead a little bit here but um we wanted this to be like the holiday special episode yes you have one of the questions we had for you okay 2021 year in review this is the perfect t-up

How's your relationship with Saxipoo? We all over the beef? All good? You know, Sax and I are like brothers. And we... Sax is also a leader. And before all in, we could break each other's chops about our position on, let's say, politics. Obviously, I'm left-leaning, he's right-leaning. I'm kind of more of a centrist. And he's becoming a little bit more centrist. I feel like we're both sort of coming closer on this.

But then you throw in the all-in podcast. And that was just to have fun. And now it's obviously gotten larger than we thought it would. It peaked at the 41st episode in the country of all categories. That's crazy. Episode 56 and 57 were like 41 and 55 or something. I don't know. I look at it over the weekend and that's crazy. So it's gotten extraordinarily popular.

You should get Chartable, by the way. They send you alerts on when you're ranking on different... I think my team has that. I have to get that. So anyway, that has created another level to it because when we break chops, everybody sees it as a 10x what in reality we're experiencing. We do this as a course of action. And I basically started it because I grew up in Brooklyn where we break each other's chops as sport. It's kind of a way to show love and affection.

He buys into that 100%. We've been friends for 20 years. We've been doing it for 20 years. So it makes everybody uncomfortable. We go out with our wives or we're at a party, like our wives will take us for a sit. Can you guys stop ribbing each other? It's making the other guests uncomfortable. I'm like, why would it be uncomfortable? Oh, sorry. Why would it be uncomfortable if this like, sympathizing...

this fat bastard and I argue. And she's like, please stop. It's making it worse. So we just, you know, just beep, beep, beep, beep, beep that and make it post-production. So it's actually never been bad, but we do argue over things. And one of the arguments has been, and I'm curious your position on this is how much politics on all in, you know, when you talk politics on any podcast, you probably have seen it on yours.

All of a sudden, you got all these thumbs up, thumbs down. The comments go crazy. The tweets go crazy. You're an idiot. You're stupid. You know, it's polarized like anything else. So it becomes like Thanksgiving dinner during the Trump era. And so I've been the other three besties who are not David Sachs. Freeberg doesn't want to talk about any politics. You see him like just zone out. If you're watching him on the stream...

during a politics discussion. He just goes and does like real science while everyone's throwing bars. He literally walked out off on the, I thought he left the program, but he's like, oh, this is a perfect time for me to get a cup of coffee. I'm like, you just can't leave in the middle of the day. He's like, I just had a cup of coffee, whatever. I was like, okay, fine. So he hates it. Chamath,

is fine with it if it's in relation to the same position as me. Markets, tech, you know, science. Can't argue it doesn't impact our world anymore. And then David would like to talk about the insurrection. You know, he wants to talk about any, you know, he wanted to talk about Rittenhouse, you know, and that was something like a big debate. Are we going to talk about this or not? And

So anyway, that is at the core of it. And I think we've worked through most of it. I mean, you asked for our take on it. Like my quick one is I actually love listening to all in for that reason. I've been, I thought I was going to listen to it for like business and tech stuff. And I excited, I tuned in a lot for like

COVID updates and a lot for what's going on. I don't live in San Francisco, but like San Francisco politics because I didn't really understand it until then. And I feel like it's an intelligent politics discussion. I mean, there's barbs, but Sachs is the first conservative to make arguments where I become amenable to them and then look at myself and I'm like, no, what are you doing? But like, it's smart. It's well-reasoned. It's not incendiary most of the time. David?

I totally agree. And I go back to, you know, you can't, um, you can't separate anymore. Like tech and our world and our industry is so much more a fabric of the whole world. And so like to pretend that politics and world events and stuff, you know, don't impact our industry and vice versa is silly. And there's no place else where you can get a good discussion of these things then, then all in. So I think it's great. I agree with Ben. I think it's a core part of the show.

I appreciate that. And I agree with you both. Like, I mean, to say it's part of the fabric of society, capital allocation, wealth creation, technology and science are our society as far as I'm concerned. Like, I don't think almost anything is important now. Entertainment, media,

Like religion. I mean, all the movie studios are owned by big tech, like literally owned by there are no more independent film studios. So is that enough? Yeah. So, you know, I appreciate it. What we're trying to do, you know, we have we play poker most weeks or have dinner together, you know, every couple of weeks, you know, during poker. And we really as a as a quartet have had discussions about, hey, what is the

What is a vibrant civil discussion, right? And so, like, interruptions comes up all the time. Like, how prepared are we? And so...

That was another big discussion like, you know, hey, are you interrupting people? It's like it's a conversation and, you know, Saks would show up with a monologue. And I, you know, we had to have this like discussion like Saks has researchers and writers or, you know, giving him notes. And none of us are doing that. I'm like, hey, listen, I don't want you monologuing on the show. I'm going to interrupt you if you monologue. So you can get 90 seconds into this. But when you get to two minutes or three minutes, I'm going to ask you a question. You got to pass the ball. This is not ISO ball.

This is not like 90s basketball. You're not Allen Iverson or Carmelo Anthony. I want warrior style basketball. I want the ball passing. And he agrees with that. By the way, I don't know how this did in your analytics, but one of my favorite all in episodes, if not my favorite for this year, was when you had Draymond on. I don't know if that was a deep cut or if that was that was high up on the charts, but it was awesome. It was in the early days. We have to have him back on after the season.

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like Vanta's 7,000 customers around the globe and go back to making your beer taste better, head on over to vanta.com slash acquired and just tell them that Ben and David sent you. And thanks to friend of the show, Christina, Vanta's CEO, all acquired listeners get $1,000 of free credit. Vanta.com slash acquired. One final question on all in. How...

Has your thinking evolved on the sort of Jason Calacanis media and investing empire since adding all into the mix? Like, how does it fit in with launch and twist and how you're thinking about the next five and 10 years now? So I love doing it. I love doing it. I am now, you know, I turned 51 on Sunday. I have now, I've just oriented my life. How old are you guys, by the way?

32 and David, you're 35, 37. So I focused my entire life on performance, you know, success, trying to be somebody, be important, get money, get power, get status.

And I just made the decision after Tony Hsieh passed away, which is just now the year anniversary and after, you know, COVID, that I am going to put an equal amount of effort into my personal enjoyment with my friends and my family, which, you know, has been a journey of my 40s is trying to just.

put more effort into my friendships and families and relationships. So I bought a ski house, you know, like, and I'm going to spend a month in Tahoe skiing and doing the show from there. So actually, I'm orienting the empire around my personal enjoyment of life. And, you know, my relationships, and the success is going to take care of itself. Because it has my I was at like, maybe 300,000 followers or something. I think I had 100,000 followers since

All in became popular. I'm getting a lot of offers to do other media stuff now because people saw me in a different role, like as a moderator. So you might see me on some other, you know, mainstream media stuff or other projects. So it has changed things for me. The things I love doing, investing in startups.

performing on air, like doing podcasts and writing and being a great friend to the people I love. Those are the things that I've taken stock of my life that I enjoy doing. And so that's what I'm orienting everything around. And you know what? Media is what I love to do. I love to create media.

And it's really that simple. If I like this, you know, like last night, I was like, can't wait to be on the show with you two. You know, and it's like, I really enjoy our time together. We felt the same way. Chopping it up. And I, you know, I get a little tingle, you know, before all in or before certain guests. And, you know, as part of that, since this being sort of five days a week this year.

We're bringing Molly Wood on. And so Molly Wood is obviously a very famous podcaster from NPR, New York Times. And before that, she kind of pioneered streaming media on CNET. And we've been friends for a long time. And she's joining us in January as the co-host of This Week in Stories. We'll take a little pressure off me and kind of add to that. Oh, great. Yeah, it was a two-year thing. Yeah. I've been talking to her about it for two years. But she wants to be an investor.

And so she was like, hey, how do I become an investor? And I was like, well, you quit your job and come work with me. And so she wants to do climate. So I don't know if you saw the syndicate launched, the SaaS syndicate.

And I'll just break a little news here. We're going to do a climate syndicate next. Oh, sweet. And Molly Wood did this great podcast this year called How We Survive. It became the number one business podcast for a couple of weeks. And she's passionate about that. So she's going to spend the first half of the day working on this week in startups with me. Second half of the day, investing in climate startups and other startups. And I'm going to teach her how to be an investor. And we'll actually do that on air. So that's going to be really exciting for me, too, because I just think she's awesome. That's great. How are you guys thinking about your media empire?

That's a great question. I mean, it's gotten very popular. I see you guys in the rankings like we're both right there in the top, whatever, top 15 tech podcast, 10 to 15. Right. It's it's well, it's been a while. I mean, we never expected any of this. Like, yeah, but you're good at it. So it's it's been a while. Thank you. It's been awesome.

We live in this golden age. I'm full-time, Monica. Acquired is what I do. It's my job, quote-unquote, now. I used to be a professional venture capitalist with a hobby podcast on the side. Now I'm a professional podcaster with a fund. Hobby venture capitalist on the side. And never been happier. We live in this golden age where...

I mean, media broadly defined what it's become. The internet, media influence is the key to... We were going to talk about Sequoia on this episode and the state of the VC landscape, as we always do.

Just being capital by itself is not enough anymore. What we do, what you do, what All In does, you tell us, but I'd imagine for all four of you are investing on All In and you with the Launch and Twist empire.

It's the best thing that you could do for your investing, right? You know, it's something you can do. It's not for everybody. I think you have to want to put yourself out there. You want to have an opinion. And it does take a lot of time, right? So I'm doing six podcasts a week, two hours approximately of effort each one. But for me, talking is my superpower. So it's not that hard. How is your business being impacted by this, Ben?

Yeah, it's been interesting. So I think a thing that we were really worried about for a long time is, so we started as like the normal podcast that everyone says you should do, which is 30 to 40 minutes. And we started bleeding longer and longer. Then we got into this territory where like, we do these, like we need to do 50 hours of research on a company to produce a three hour podcast on the New York Times or TSMC, which went nuts this year. And we were getting a lot of feedback. Can you explain what TSMC is?

Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturer? No, a company. Taiwan Semiconductor Company. Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company. Manufacturing Company. The ninth largest company in the world by market cap. They make all the chips, all the most advanced chips in all smartphones. This is a key asset in the world.

It is a geopolitical linchpin. It's a geopolitical... It's like literally like a... It is a keystone or a linchpin. Like you pull the linchpin out or you remove the keystone, the arc collapses. Like this is what... Literally modern life like disappears. It's a really significant business that is more important... Let me ask you this, having you guys doing the deep dive on it. Is it been more important...

than the actual Taiwan, like the country itself? Like, if you think about China and the US interest, if we're being totally cynical or candid, do people care more about the people of Taiwan and the state slash province, however you look at a country of Taiwan? Or is this more about or equal about Taiwan Semiconductor?

I mean, we cannot compare the value of human life to the value of the market capital corporation. The thing is that it's not either. It's the same thing. The country, Taiwan, started... This is the whole history that we tell in the episode. Like,

it was government policy, domestic policy that they wanted to start this. So they recruited Morris Chang, the founder who was by that point, an American citizen. He's from China originally from mainland China, uh, recruited him to come take over like a, a, a ministry. And then that led into one thing led to another. Then they started TSMC, the government owned it. There were outside shareholders and there obviously still are now, but, um,

It's the same thing. It's like the most strategic asset, political asset that the government has. Yeah. I guess the point that I wanted to make there is, so we do this three-hour episode on TSMC, and we've done these three-hour episodes on all these other companies. And it finally dawned on me that you can just go be weird in a corner of the internet, and the internet is now so big that if you just keep at it, and you have reasonable distribution channels...

You will find all the other people that are weird in the same way that you're weird who will come conglomerate around love So while the conventional wisdom is don't do three-hour podcasts like 160,000 people who like three-hour podcasts have found their way to us over the last six and a half years of bang our head against a wall so I I find that inspiring for anybody who has something where they they feel like they want to go and operate in some pseudo obscure corner and

I think that's exactly right. When people started telling me, like, try to get this to, you know, an hour, do this. And like, I had the original producers on this week in startups were trying to like fit it into like a TV format. I was like, turn the microphones on. Like, how long is it going to be? We got to tell the guests, I was like, tell the guests to just book two hours. And it might go over, might go under, and we'll get a hamburger or coffee after whatever they want to do. But

But just look at this as a conversation. It ends when we both think it should end. The end. Love that. If you don't have constraint, why would you add it? You have to ask yourself. So if there is no constraint, you would add constraint because you think it makes the product better, right? Yep. And people are just so used to things being a certain length or they look at the...

you know, top rankings and they're like, oh, well, Ben Shapiro and The Daily Show, you know, and all those daily things are exactly 25 minutes each day. And it's like, well, yeah, they're done by The New York Times or somebody like they're there. There's some reason there, but you don't have to. They're fitting into a traditional media format because they're also going to be distributed on traditional media. That is actually what happens. They're on a regular radio. They're being syndicated in some cases. So, yeah, they're and they and, you know, they just may come to it with a little bit more of a rigid thing. But that's what I love about all of this. And

And then to answer the last part of your question, sort of like how does it fit into investing? So I'm a general partner in a fund in Seattle called Pioneer Square Labs and our investments with PSL Ventures. And David, last January, despite much pushback, convinced me that we should do a Bitcoin episode, which was our first crypto foray. Amazing. It took us till January of 2021. But since then, I've gone like way down the rabbit hole. We're on our seventh...

web3 related episode and a bunch more in the in the pipeline now and uh i i where we have five partners at psl but i am um personally exclusively looking at crypto and web3 investments now and that that's fairly new it's in the last month but just been a total total total change for me and that wouldn't have happened without um sort of having acquired as the vehicle to pursue that curiosity

I tell people podcasts can be like your graduate school, like, and literally like every year you get a new degree or every like 10 episodes. It's like, here's your new, you know, minor in crypto. Here's your minor in smart contracts. Like, it's like literally taking another couple of credits. And I always tell people it's a front for me to build relationships and get smarter. I think maybe it's a good segue into crypto. Is that somewhere on the docket that we're talking about crypto?

I don't think it's explicitly on the docket, but it's like, hey, Jason, are we talking about mobile? Are we talking about social today? I mean, probably not. I guess I'm trying to make the point. It's like it's in the fabric of everything now. Let's look at it specifically in investing, because I literally was looking at a Dow company. I'm going to look at the Dow companies. I'm like, somebody's going to make a Dow platform. I think for me, I looked at the four... Totally needs to happen. I look at the four...

stages of crypto. And I covered Bitcoin when it was trading in the sense, and I wrote a seminal piece like the most dangerous technology project I've ever seen. Turned out to be pretty correct. Is this public? Like it's a blog post from... Yeah, they'll pull it up right now. When I had my email newsletter, it was the most dangerous technology project I'd ever seen. And I asked my producers to pull these for the future. We'll talk about them on the pod. Maybe somebody on the producing team can look at when we first talked about Bitcoin.

This was around that time I had a Bitcoin episode. The four stages I saw, putting aside like the underlying technologies in terms of use cases, store of value, not interesting to me. Interesting to somebody who's in a communist country, somebody who's

got runaway inflation somebody who's doing money laundering whatever somebody like me who just bought a hardware device to specifically put my store of value on geeking out store of value whatever i would rather store my value in a ski house or you know something else like i don't know the you know uh a vanguard fund like there's other places to store value that i think are much better for somebody in the developed world in the united states second one uh

Money transfer. Again, we're in the developed world where money transfer is not a non-issue and this stuff is more expensive, cumbersome, harder to use. So that was a fail for me as well.

NFTs, collectibles, I kind of like those when there's, and that was when I kind of got like crypto curious or like crypto, like, okay, maybe I'll do something here. And then finally, DAOs, which is really about company formation, governance. It's kind of like a new LLC structure. It's kind of like venture funds. It's kind of like running a company. It's kind of like culture and capital formation on a global basis. That to me was just like,

Man, that was just like, just fentanyl for me. Right into your veins. Right into my veins. I just, yeah. I smoked that Dow right up and I just collapsed. I was just like, give me more Dow. And so now I'm just like a junkie. But the problem I had was I started looking at these Dow companies.

And I kid you not, I just start every conversation with, hey, can you show me a product demo? And they're like, yeah, here's a Figma, you know, design, or here's our white paper, or here's our six pager in the, you know, parlance of Amazon. And I was like, where's the product? And they're like, well, there's a Discord server, you know, and there's a database. And I was like, well, can you walk me through the product? Nobody's got a product. And they're like, product will be ready in three weeks. And I keep hearing that from people. And the valuation was

you know, hundreds of millions of dollars, raising, you know, low millions of dollars for, you know, basis points. I was like, this does not make sense as an investment.

That's my... But this is what happens every time there's a new paradigm, for lack of a better word. Back in the original Web 1.0 bubble, Web 2.0 mobile, there's tons and tons of people rushing... Valuations never get disconnected from reality like this. Totally get disconnected, and there's tons of fraud, and there's tons of companies that go nowhere, and just Figma designs that never become products. But...

There are a few like this is the moment they're going to be. They're going to be the next trillion dollar companies, quote unquote companies that emerge out of this moment. I'm not sure. Maybe trillion dollar companies. It might be one or two, but I'm not sure like these platforms will be. I think they'll be. I think their value, I think in the likely case when I've seen on crypto valuation, I've been very interested in hearing what valuations you're seeing and how disconnected they are from reality.

When companies get these kind of valuations, a billion dollars or more in value and there's no product in market, remember Jason's rule, it's either a fraud or it's going to fail. Whether it's Quibi, Magic Leap, Quibi, Magic Leap, Theranos, Nikola, Fisker, any of these companies that become worth over a billion dollars, but they don't have customers or a product in market. It probably shouldn't apply. Which one? It probably shouldn't apply to any biotech.

Yeah. I mean, biotech. Yeah, that would be different. I agree. It was the whole Zimmergen, uh, uh,

Well, but there's been lots of multi-billion dollar no products in market companies like Moderna that then became products in market and were super viable. I think they did have some products like actually in the formation of making drugs, like their platform to make the drugs was the product. So if you look at that, that product did exist. The drug did not go through the approval process. So we might have to workshop Jason's law with that caveat, but I think it is a good edge case to carry up. I mean, tell me a company that became worth a billion dollars, Quibi.

um before the product was launched uh i don't know if they ever hit a billion but um what was jason kyler's company uh yeah what was that that was another one of those that was like huge valuation vessel vessel well that was in the era where like there were very few billion dollar companies so i remember he raised i can't remember if it was a 40 or an 80 million dollar seed round and that was on a few hundred million dollar valuation and that was like

you know, 3X an outlier of anything else anyone had ever seen. So times are different now. What valuations are you seeing? To answer your point... And how do you reconcile them? Because I don't know if you saw Fred Wilson's post that said, listen, $100 million pre-launch product market fit. You cannot have a winning portfolio buying it at that price, knowing what we know about exits, even the extraordinary exits we're seeing today. I thought that was one of the most cool-headed, sober, rational posts I've seen.

Um, it also nicely flies in the face of this sort of Andreessen Horowitz philosophy over the last decade of this is all going to be so much bigger than anybody can possibly imagine. So, um,

On our Andreessen Horowitz episode, I can't remember the exact number, David, but someone was making the case that for Mark's fund to actually return, these companies would need to have an aggregate enterprise value of over $15 billion or something. And he was like, well, yeah, of course it is. And it seemed crazy at the time and was totally, totally true. So I think Fred makes the well-balanced point that either we have a problem here or...

these things are going to... There's going to be way more multi-billion dollar companies than anyone has... than possibly exists today. Anyway, in crypto, I'm seeing a bifurcation where...

If people are raising on the traditional structures where they're raising equity, they're a little overpriced relative to the regular insanity that's happening in the fundraising market right now. Put a number on it. Pre-product, pre-launch in the $15 to $30 million valuation range. Oh, that's not that bad. No, exactly. That's double or triple reality. Right.

But then you get into when they're issuing tokens from the get-go or doing a SAF, the Simple Agreement for Future Tokens, or things like that, where there's never any equity structure and they're purely starting by selling some number of the eventual fully diluted total number of tokens. And the valuations make no sense. Like, there are 3, 4, 5x because they're not...

the argument is, well, it'll never get diluted. We're never going to... The fully diluted tokens, there's already a set number and you'll never get diluted again. And you're like, you kind of have to...

Yeah, that's an interesting one. It's like there'll never be another secondary offering. There'll never be like an IPO. There's never going to be a Series D or a bridge round. There's never going to be a punitive bridge round with warrants that are 10 to 1. The idea is it would be like your startup has a billion shares on day one and they're trading for a fraction of a penny or a penny. And then, you know, we'll take it from there. And there's also a different notion where tokens have a...

a second or third use case other than just representing sort of ownership in the value that is created because so many of them, you know, you have to have at least more than half, often more than 60% allocated for the eventual community of the thing that launches. So all the founders, all the investors, all the employees of, and they're not really employees, but all the people working on the project

are going to be a minority. And so that's different too. That's gonna make it at least two or three X more expensive because you have to save a certain amount for the community in the future. So I have found, and I'm new to this process, I've found that it just requires a very different way of thinking and I'm still working through what's my framework to evaluate if something is a reasonable price 'cause price means a completely different thing in that token world. - Fascinating. You buy any of this, David? You smoking this?

I think I don't know. Are you mainlining it? Are you got tinfoil in a straw? Are you freebasing this craziness? I think anytime you're talking about maybe this controversial, I think anytime you're talking about valuations or where the market is right now, it's just like it's noise. It doesn't matter. Like I go back to like this. Does it matter for investing in the law? OK, like all of this that is going on Web3, Dow's.

say you're 21 years old right now you're in college or even a year older like what like this is so amazing if i were that age now i'd be like oh okay i could go like work for a company get a job uh where i'm selling my labor for money do that for a while maybe someday i'll start a company with equity and all my eggs are in one basket this blows all that up you'd be like okay cool i'm gonna like

Give my efforts to a bunch of projects. I'm going to get tokens in those projects. I can diversify. I can work on where my interests take me. Those projects can do well. It's just a whole new model of labor and capital. I'm talking about in our day jobs, like entry price, investing.

But I like your further point, which is the great resignation and young people becoming entrepreneurial. So let's put a pin in that and get to that. But before we get to that one, there's a thing, David, that I know you want to say that or that you've said to me before, which I think is a reasonable and succinct way to put this, which is because we are elephant hunting in the game of venture, all that matters is that the entry place that you get in is sufficiently low, below some reasonable number such that you're still early stage. And like,

Do you care how low, below that? Not really. Just go put wind in the sails of the company. But as long as you're in early stage in a winter, that's what matters. It totally depends on the style of investing too. I used to be a professional venture capitalist for over a decade. Very traditional. I'd make one to two investments a year. I'd sit on the board. I'd like...

My model has completely changed now. And I think back on that, that's a great, totally viable model. But you're betting on so much to go right with every individual investment there. You are threading a needle every single time. And now I just think about it more as like, okay, I and my partner, Nat, and my fund in kindergarten, we're going to make 50 to 100 investments a year.

they're going to be small, small checks. And most of those, we're not going to make any money, but some of those are going to make so much money that it'll pay for everything. And we have so many chances to be right. And what I'm saying is that like what web three endows, that brings that same dynamics to companies themselves, to founders, to employees. And I just think that's like, like, uh, we had, we did a great special episode a couple of weeks ago with NZS capital, which is a hedge fund, uh,

based out of Colorado. Those guys are so smart. They're so awesome. And the whole premise, they spent a lot of time at the Santa Fe Institute, which is an amazing institute. And their whole premise in starting the firm was like, we don't know what the future is. And if you just have that as your baseline, we don't know what's going to happen.

then what do you do? They've culturally outlawed the word conviction. No one's allowed to come and say, I have conviction in this investment because they're like, you don't know the future. That's a ridiculous thing to say. And now when I think like traditional venture investing, caring about valuations, I'll be like,

that's like you're kind of betting on yourself that you know what's going to happen. But if you're just like, I don't know what's going to happen. So these valuations are probably crazy right now. Sure. Right. But they may not be crazy. And as long as you're investing through time periods and up cycles and down cycles, it's all going to balance out. Interesting.

I might take the other side of this, that some price discipline matters and that outrageous valuations could be a sign of a founder who is optimizing for the wrong things. And if you're optimizing for the wrong things, like I've seen founders turn down like top tier firms to get plus 10, 20% on a valuation.

And then they just don't have Benchmark or Sequoia, whoever on their thing. But they got some second tier or third tier firm to go 30%, 40% over what those firms offered. I had one founder who got offered to vest all of their shares ahead of time. So no vesting schedule and control of the board. And I was like, but don't you want that person on your board? Because they've done this 100 times. Isn't that the value? Yeah.

You're framing it as that. I totally agree with you under that circumstance. Let's compare apples to apples though. Great firm offering you ludicrous price and two to three X as much money as you actually need in this round versus taking a more reasonable valuation and selling at a pretty much the same amount of the company. Yeah. You go for the higher valuation, obviously. Right. Yeah. So I don't blame founders for taking advantage of this moment in time. I do think

A lot of firms I'm seeing are going to have a hard time reaching the valuations they hit. I don't know about crypto because crypto is just so wild that, you know, having the public, having a global day trading base of users that is completely unregulated, participating in startups. I think I'm just sort of like stitching this together here in my head, but let's see what you guys think and you can riff on it.

you know, we had as the venture community angels a lock on accreditation and investing in startups. Then you have this equity crowdfunding, which is very interesting and kind of opens it up and syndicates opens it up a little more. But then you say, hey,

We'll let anybody invest in this token, which is a proxy for a share, but we're just going to circumvent all securities law. Whoa, careful there, buddy. It is obviously a share because people are buying it to afford to appreciate and nobody buying them is actually using them for the utility of them or 99.9% are. So if it looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck.

It's a duck. And so it's a duck, period. Sorry, folks. You look at that. What that shows to me is there's a global appetite to participate in company formation. But then imagine if when Uber was starting out or Robinhood or pick the great firms that you guys have invested in, if all of a sudden the public

When they saw the app and downloaded it, and Twitter or Foursquare went viral at South by Southwest, everybody could just take out their Coinbase wallet and Robinhood and just start trading it and buying into it. They're like, what are you using? Oh, Twitter? Oh, yeah, I'll buy 100 tokens of Twitter. Oh, yeah, what is that this year at South by? It's Lyft and Uber. Okay, yeah, I'll buy 100 tokens of that. No wonder they get so valuable so fast. Well, basically, you're taking the virality of Twitter and social media and the algorithm there, and then you're combining it with finance and private companies.

So you literally are going, I just, it's putting this together in my head. Like, I think these tokens are like the equivalent of going onto, going viral on social. And the real, like, next layer on top of that, that compounds the whole thing is, if it's not just I open up Coinbase and, you know, or FTX or whatever, and buy some of that, assuming it's traded on a centralized exchange.

If it's actually something where the token has intrinsic value in the network and I decide, ooh, I'm going to start participating in the network and I'm going to own some of that part for speculation value because I think it's going to go up. But the mere fact that I then adopt it grows the network and grows the intrinsic value of the network. And so you do actually have this thing where the price is growing. It's the old Buffett aphorism. Price is what you pay, value is what you get.

Sure, the price is going because it's this public thing that everyone's buying in a mad speculative rush. But in this ideal scenario, the value is also growing because the network is expanding. Solana or Ethereum. Okay. Are you using Solana and Ethereum in your day-to-day life or professional life? I do...

I just held up my weird little hardware wallet that I just got to do DeFi stuff. Okay, yeah, showing people your crypto is not to try to like... By the way, have you guys seen these memes of people showing girls in the club their Robinhood accounts or Coinbase accounts? Oh, come on. I swear to God, it's so great. This isn't to show you like, look, I have coins. This is to show you like,

Well, I have an application on my computer. I use my Phantom wallet on Chrome. Okay, but you're not doing anything. You're not solving a problem in your life with these coins. That's where this whole thing... I got a great example. We invest in... You should have these founders on the show. Braintrust. Have you had Adam and Gabe on the show? I don't think so. You should. Full disclosure, we invested at kindergarten and...

Whoa, pumping his book. I know. Here we go. Here's the plugs. These guys are awesome. So it's... Adam was the founder of Doctor on Demand. You know, like super legit Silicon Valley guy. He's been around for, you know, many generations since Web 1.0. And...

Oh, I know about this. Yes, it's. Yeah, keep going. And so this one is interesting to me. This is generation labor marketplace. Yeah, it's like it's much more than this. But the gross analogy is Upwork or, you know, Fiverr or whatnot. But with crypto and it makes so much sense because. So explain it to somebody who doesn't understand crypto. Great. But does understand Fiverr.

Okay, so on Fiverr, you, you know, get a job, you work a job, it's like, you know, temp jobs, labor, etc. It's low paying jobs, because so much of the value is going to the network, like you're working these jobs, you're not really building anything, like a lot of the values go into the company, they're taking a big take rate, etc.

On Braintrust, you take a job, you work on there. Braintrust takes de minimis. I think it's like might be five or 10%, like very low take rate. And they want to get it lower, ultimately get it low, I think down to zero. And you get paid in whatever currency you agree with, with the employer.

But everybody also gets tokens on the network. You work your labor, you get tokens, companies get tokens, people who refer people labor in jobs that happen, get tokens. And then you are becoming an equity owner in the network by working there. You can work lots of different jobs. And as more jobs happen on the network...

that token increases in value. And so you're incentivized to do everything through the network versus where Fiverr or Upwork or whatnot, you're incentivized to take that offline immediately. So imagine you got paid in Bitcoin, just to... Since everybody knows what Bitcoin is, you go and I'm a writer and I write a press release for somebody. I'm good at writing press releases. I write a press release. I say, hey, that would be... If I was going to charge somebody to write their press releases, I'd charge them $5,000.

But most people probably charge a thousand. So let's say it's a thousand bucks. Okay. Here's a thousand dollar press release. Boom. I wrote it for you. I get a thousand Bitcoin instead of a thousand dollars in cash. I can then cash it out or I could spend it with other people on the network. And the idea is in order to be a contributor on this, you have to own a certain amount of these tokens or something. You have to be, it's not even that complex. It's you get paid, but you want to get paid in USD. You get paid in USD. You get a thousand dollars in cash. You also get brain trust tokens. Ah,

And the company is like a pot sweetener then. Yeah, exactly. I just like the creative thinking here, right? Because then if you use those tokens to do other things and. And as those tokens grow in value, then you're like, oh, crap, that job that I made a thousand dollars USD on now in USD equivalent two years later, if the token appreciates its value. Wow, I made ten thousand dollars on that job.

Or, Ben, and you can relate to this, sometimes we buy extra fuel for jets, you know, like three years in advance. So if we think jet fuel is low now, you'll just buy three years worth of jet fuel. I did it last week. Looking at your PJ and you're like, you know. Yeah, I was just like, f*** it, I'm just going to buy it. You got to get to that ski house somehow. Well, exactly. No, I'm driving, trust me. I'm getting snow tires right now. I don't have a PJ. I have snow tires. Like, that's the level I'm on. I'm getting snow tires.

You have friends with DJs. They're really good. They're really good snow tires for my Model Y. But some people will buy three years worth of JetFuel. So actually, if you think about brain trust like Fiverr, if I were to do, if I were able to buy $10,000 worth of Fiverr credits now and had a reasonable expectation that it might go 3, 4, 5X, my buying power would go from 10 press releases if it goes to $50,000. Now I have 50 press releases sitting waiting there. So it's almost like paying in advance. I could spend it later.

Totally. Kind of cool. This is an example too. Like, you know, I mean, shoot, valuations are, maybe they're too crazy now, but back then we invested pre-launch. I think the valuation was like $166 million or something like that. Crazy, right? You invested in this company at $166 million. Yeah, but listen. Listen what happened. They launch and they list on Coinbase. It trades up to an $11.5 billion market cap. Yeah.

It's now down a lot since then, but it's still, you know, one to two billion dollar market cap. Wait a second, did you buy shares in the company or tokens or both? SAFT, SAFT. So you have future tokens. Did you get your tokens? Got the tokens, yep. Are you allowed to sell them or are you locked? We're locked, yeah. So, okay, so that's ridiculous. I mean, the people who bought the tokens on the free market can do whatever they want, but the VCs who put the money in early are locked for how long? Oh, you must have gotten a much better deal.

Well, we invested pre-launch at, I think it was $166 million valuation. It should be a lower valuation than whatever the tokens were trading for most of the company's life. Yeah, if we had bought in at $11.5 billion, then we wouldn't be locked, but we wouldn't have bought in at $11.5 billion. This is the problem with what's happening in crypto is these valuations, like, oh my God, it's worth $10 billion.

Put aside Brain Trust, just call it Acme Corporate because I don't want to deride this company. So Acme tokens are worth $10 billion, the market cap. But $10 billion of tokens have not been sold. $10 million worth of tokens have been sold, but people are buying in $100 increments.

Nobody can clear their positions. So when we look at Solana and a lot of my besties have big positions in Solana and other, you know, that famous fund. What's the name of the fund? Multicoin. Multicoin. Yeah. So Multicoin, like they're in this very unique position. There's not a market to sell all of those. So what do you do? You're just going to be like, you know, drip, drabbing them out to sell them as you go.

And so that is the thing about crypto that I think people don't realize is that I would guess two thirds of the valuation of crypto is unrealized and unrealizable. Because there's not deep liquidity to actually trade your position. There's not enough liquidity to do it. And I think if you look at Bitcoin specifically, I mean, maybe a third of the wallets and tokens are dead. I keep asking this to people. People keep saying...

low double digits are lost coins. So when you look at the market cap of Bitcoin, 20%, chop it right off, let's say. Some people have told me a third, but let's just take 20%. How much does Satoshi have? I don't know. I think it's like 2 billion. They never touched their wallet. 2 million or 3 million of the 21 million. So that wallet's been dead since day one. It's never sold. So that's crazy to me.

Like, here's a question, though, that I was thinking about the other day. Like, we can observe if there's ever actually been a transaction. So we are like, oh, the coins haven't left that wallet. If I were Satoshi, in some ways, you're like, well, that's proof Satoshi's dead because no human could actually resist the temptation of being able to go make that much money or spend that much money or do something with that money. They could totally take a loan against that as collateral. Oh, there's something even better they can do. There's something even easier. Because then it's not on chain. Here's how you do it.

It's a little secret that happens sometimes in our industry. You may not have come across it, Toti.

I didn't want to bring it up, but I am. I am one 16th of Satoshi. If I was Satoshi. Is this like when you were, you said you were BC Braggs? Yes, which I thought was great. And people still to this day, they got BC Braggs. It's so great. Oh, so great. Well, I coordinated with BC Braggs. BC Braggs, you know, I'm like, I'm DMing with BC Braggs all the time saying, this is hilarious. Please keep going. Because I was like, we're the original targets. And then you take out your other phone and you're like, thanks, Jason. Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. So anyway, I was like,

I was like, okay, how can we make people believe this? I'm going to tweet something from the VC Braggs, and then I'm going to delete it. And then you screen capture and then share it somewhere else to prove it. So we were like going like through a whole like deep, how do we convince people that I accidentally tweeted from my Jason or at this week in startups? Anyway, putting that aside.

Here's how you do it. This is like QAnon for startups. Basically, yeah. It's a little pizza gate or something. Aliens, reptiles, Illuminati. So you would create an LLC, Ben, and you'd say, I'm contributing of my 20% of the Bitcoin. I'm going to put 1%. I'm pledging 1% into that LLC. And then if you all want to buy it, I will sell it to you for half price under the concept here that you can't sell for 10 years. Okay.

So they could have done all kinds of off-market transactions like that. We could be doing them all the time with a non-disclosure. Yeah, people used to do this. I don't know if they still do with employee equity in startups, right? What happened to me was I owned equity in a high growth startup at one point, and it was a very coveted share. And that company was not allowing people to sell them because the founder ruled with an iron fist. And that was why he was so successful.

And then somebody talking about somebody upon a time and start up on a time. Somebody said to me, listen, don't worry about it. F that guy. We'll make an LLC. You sign this piece of paperwork. You contribute your stuff. I contribute into that X number of dollars. We now own your shares and this amount of cash. Anytime you want cash, you take it out. And then I own a couple of shares and it's just a liquidity pool for you. And nobody has to know. And I was like, huh?

I'm not going to do that because he's my friend and I'm just... Well, when people were doing that, at least with startup equity, there was a lot of risk because if the company found out, they could cancel those shares, right? Theoretically, they could cancel those shares. That has never gone to the test. And so this person is like, no, they can't do it. It would go to the Supreme Court or whatever. I'm like, yeah, that's exactly what I want to be doing. He's like, with one of my besties...

Going to the Supreme Court, like I trust my bestie. I'm looking at the data like liquidity.

Illiquidity is a feature. It was very beneficial for you to wait. Yes. This may or may not be... The LLC was not based in Wyoming, by the way. It was not in Dow. May or may not be relevant to this conversation. I'm just curious. Popped in my head. Are you still in touch with Travis? What's he up to these days? Thank you for asking. I don't talk about Travis publicly. And I don't talk about the guy with the rocket ships publicly anymore. Because the press now...

Because of reblogging, if I... I talked about the SNL thing and the amount of blowback when you have a high-profile friend like that. It's just like it's back-channel blowback. It's people asking me to ask high-profile friends to solve some problem like their kids benefit. Yeah, that makes sense. And the other problem is...

And I basically told my team... Sorry to bring it up, but... No, no, it's totally fine to bring it up. I actually like talking to you about it. When you start having some... Okay, let's...

I have acquaintances and friends, and then there's like very close friends. When I have close friends, and I was on CNBC in the early days of, let's say, specifically Uber and Tesla, I say, listen, I have the roadster. It's amazing. I was out there stumping for my friends. Hey, Uber's great. They're going to get through their problems. Hey, Tesla's amazing. Yes, the Model S is late, but I have the first one. It's incredible. It's transcendent. I was doing that. My friends were on high profile, and I was supportive. So no problem.

Then if your friends become too high profile, if I mentioned something about a Chamath SPAC now, like if I had Chamath on earlier, I'm like, hey, meet my friend Chamath Palihapitiya. Here's how you pronounce his last name. That was like, you know, five to 10 years ago, and I was introducing him to the world on the pod. I could say, well, now if I were to say something about Chamath and then bring up one of the IPO SPACs,

it gets reblogged and people say, well, he's an insider, he's his bestie, he has inside information, this is a publicly traded stock. And then all of a sudden I am trading on a friend's reputation as opposed to supporting friends. So now

I support my friends. If they become so high profile, I've now just learned to just turn off the spigot. So everybody keeps asking me about Travis. I spend time with Travis. I know a lot about what he's doing. I say nothing because he has said, I want nobody to talk about what I'm doing. And I said, great, I respect that. And then people are like, are you an investor? Are you involved? Are you on the board? And I say, I don't speak about it at the end, you know?

That is 100% his rate. That is great. And you're a good friend. I try to, you know, one of the things I've tried to do in my life is be the best friend possible for my friends because it gives me joy to be able to take a phone call

from somebody who is having a hard time. And I took these texts from Tony, you know, leading up until his suicide. And, you know, it's like something that stuck with me. It's like, did I do enough in that situation? Could anybody have done anything in that situation? And

you know, it's, it's, it's like heavy stuff to be somebody's good friend and then have them kill themselves, you know, uh, in a really disastrous way. And so I've just, this, this is like, you asked me like what I'm thinking about and top of mind for me and my career at 51, it's that it's like, I have a lot of friends in high pressure situations or friends who, you know, have died early from, you know, like Tony from drug abuse and mental health issues. And like,

that's what i think about is like my friendships and whatever because i'm not going to be here much longer i'm 51 i got whatever 19 to 40 years hopefully i want to really enjoy these and be supportive so i don't mean to bring the show down but that's how i think no it's uh yeah i mean well and it kind of you know i don't know weird to connect this to dows and everything but like i do i just i think that's what's so cool about dows and web 3 is like

you get to do stuff with your friends and that leads to awesome stuff. You know, like I love that about DAOs and crypto. Let me, let me throw this up there. You said earlier, I think Ben, no, maybe it was you, David, that there's always fraud. There's always craziness. And then something real comes out of it. I agree with that as a premise.

I've been super critical of crypto. I was like super enthusiastic and I became super critical with all the grifts and the ICOs. That's right. And these like stupid, like NFT painting the tape and market manipulation. And then now I see NFTs that have IP included with them and residuals and smart contracts. And then I'm seeing DAOs. If we are in a journey of where this becomes legitimate technology that people use every day, you know, and just pure speculation, right?

If that was like a nine inning game, what inning are we in?

That's a good question. I saw a stat. I don't know if this is correct or not, but I saw it somewhere. That's something like 2% or 3% of the US population owns an NFT at this point. That may be an incorrect stat. Wait, what number? 2% or 3% of the US population. I don't buy that, but that's incredible. Yeah, that seems high to me. But if that's true, then like, wow, that's a lot farther along than I would have thought. I think 9 million people. It was 270 million adults? 300 million adults then or something like that?

This is not the number of adults, but this is a tweet that I saw yesterday. Someone did an analysis of 6.1 million trades of 4.7 million NFTs, which is interesting to see like one and a half trades per NFT is the average, shows that the top 10% of traders have traded 97% of NFTs, which definitely puts meat on the bones of the hypothesis that a lot of NFT trades are wash sales intending to artificially boost prices. 100%. There's some interesting graphs that they show. Define wash trades for people who don't know.

selling something to realize the loss and then very quickly thereafter buying it again and resetting your basis. Right. So you bought the NFT for $10,000. You sell it to another wallet for $100. You've got $9,900 in losses, but you still own the asset. Yes. Yes. But then when you do those watch trades, don't you get the tax...

Well, the proposed tax regulation for next year that has passed the House but not passed the Senate will make digital assets subject to wash trade rules. So that, you know, in all likelihood, there's only another month left on that being an unregulated thing.

So where do you feel? Nine innings. When the ninth inning hits, this is as... This basically becomes 2005 using the internet. Everybody uses it. Everybody's got a mobile phone with the internet on it. It's the moment when the iPhones in people's pockets, Blackberries, and everybody is used to the internet. Here's the... Yeah. So I haven't defined it in terms of innings. I've defined it in terms of years. And the thing I keep going back and forth on are, are we 1994 or 1999? Yeah.

Because you could make an argument we're 94 because, like, the real heavy use case things, the Amazons of Web 3 are just now starting. But the craziness level feels pretty 99. Oh, I like that framing. So the technology development is 94. We're at Mosaic browser, Netscape 1.0. Yes. Oh, my gosh. You look at MetaMask, like, that is Mosaic.

Okay, so we're like mosaic going into Netscape. But the hype and the finance is like peak 99, 2000. I think that's exactly right, actually. Everything is so much faster now. Every cycle is so much faster. Every trend is so much faster. Information disseminates so much faster that like the hype and the bubbles and the bubbles popping and the bubbles coming back.

Like all of the cycles are just massively accelerated now. Wow. I think that is the best framing I've heard in a long time. And I was writing a blog post called Crypto

cognitive dissonance. And I think you just gave me the supporting point, which is, you know, you have this cognitive dissonance, which is there are so many scams going on here. And this does not, there's no way these valuations match reality, because there's no use case. But then you look at the underlying technology and its potential, and it doesn't take a genius. In fact, it just takes somebody with a base level of understanding of business and technology, David, to understand that this is going to change everything.

at some point, these things are too powerful as a collection of technologies to not be highly disruptive. It's just obvious. And that's the dissonance we have on podcasts or on Twitter is like,

Holding two ideas at the same time in your head. Ah, it's the hallmark of intelligence. Well, yeah. Tolerance for ambiguity certainly is. Yeah. Oh, no. There's a famous quote. Oh, shoot. Who said it? Of the hallmark of intelligence is holding two conflicting ideas in your head at the same time. I remember your wife, Jenny, told you, David. So that came from a good authoritative source. Yes, she told me, but I forget where. Well, cognitive dissonance is the psychological phenomenon. And then a tolerance for ambiguity is...

I think, you know, how I think people explain it in academia, which is when there's an ambiguous situation, which is typically because you have conflicting thoughts, if you can hold them in your head for a little bit of space, like Ben just did eloquently, hey, it's 94 in terms of the technology, it's 99 in terms of the hype cycle.

Great. Okay, now that gives you a framework to hold it in your head and say, okay, that's a really dangerous place to be as an investor. It's a really great place to be as an investor. If you're not caught up in the hype, and you're focused on the tech, right, you can actually you can actually develop a strategy by holding conflicting thoughts in your head.

Yes, absolutely. I mean, we did three three-hour episodes on the complete history of Berkshire Hathaway at the same time as doing deep dives on Bitcoin and Ethereum in the first six months of this year. And that, I think, is how I got smarter this year, was doing those things that couldn't be more diametrically opposed, like pure value investing versus mostly speculation and believing that there are true intrinsic merits to both.

I just got this from one of my producers. F. Scott Fitzgerald famously wrote, the test of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. One should, for example, be able to see that things are hopeless, yet be determined to make them otherwise.

which is Victor Frankl. I don't know if you guys have ever read Man's Search for Meaning. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's amazing. Great late holiday read. I've read it three times in my life, and maybe it's a good idea for me to read it over the break again. But yeah, I'm not even going to explain what it is. If you've heard the name Victor Frankl and Man's Search for Meaning, I'm going to just give every young person out there a gift. Don't think, don't read reviews. Just buy the book.

put it in your drawer. And when you have a, you know, a time to read it, it's like 40 pages, right?

It's more than that, but it's a quick read. It's a thin book. It's a thin book with a lot of deep and important ideas. Okay, rapid fire. We got to get out of here. Amazing episode. If you are listening on the This Week in Startup stream, just type Acquired FM into your podcast player, click subscribe, write a review, and then go ahead and follow the YouTube channel. Maybe consider subscribing if you want to get into their awesome Slack.

And likewise, if you're listening on Acquired, go subscribe to the JCal Empire. All in. Twist. You just browse the top technology shows. They'll all come up. Do you have a preference of how people consume? Something we're thinking about a lot these days, video versus podcast versus... I am focused on building a great team right now and training that team. So we now have three full-time producers on The Speaking Startups.

You can reach them at producers at thisweekinsertives.com and then empowering them. Excellent producers. And putting them in charge of specific projects. And then I have Charles who does AV and then Molly coming on board. And so, you know, six person team plus two salespeople, eight people. I focus on the team and then people can consume wherever. And we do live streaming. We do clips.

And we just look at the data and, you know, I kind of feel like Ben, you know, did before, which is if you, I think you were talking about making something crazy obscure, maybe that was your David. And then the world finds it. It was Ben. It was Ben. Yeah. I think that that's the right insight is just, you make something you're passionate about and then people find it. Yeah. And you know, this week in startups is a niche podcast. That's gotten, I never envisioned it as like about 10 or 20 podcasts in tech. I thought it was a niche podcast just about startups, but.

It's expanded and, you know, five days a week, I can't talk just about startups. So it's kind of got a bigger mandate now. Okay, rapid fire. What didn't we hit on the list, Ben, that you wanted to hear from David and I? Our rapid fire favorite carve outs, our favorite books, movies, TV shows, things we read of all of 2020 that we would recommend to listeners. Well, for TV shows, I am obsessed with Secession.

Oh, it's so good. I'm glad you caught my PJ's reference earlier. Yeah. I mean, the three, the last three episodes of secession is just extraordinary. Like they just keep peaking and peaking and peaking. And I, are you also in on this David secession? I don't watch enough TV. So no, I need to, I need to at some point. It's just, it's not even TV.

It's more like Dickens. Yeah. Well, and it's about News Corp and the Murdochs, right? A fictional... I used to work for, so I gotta go. It's ostensibly about that. Watch it. But what it's really about is power, privilege, family... How money corrupts. Corruption, society, and...

The characters in it, I don't know where you are in your power rankings or who your favorite characters are, but... You can't make a few, you can't make a Tomlet without breaking a few Gregs. I'm like all in on the Greg character. Cousin Greg? For me... Cousin Greg. You know, obviously Logan's amazing, but, you know, I feel Kendall is a snowflake.

And annoying. And I feel Shiv is like a super woke lib, but who also wants power and is kind of like disingenuous. And for me, it's about Roman. I feel like Roman is like a pragmatist who wants to win, who loves his dad, who knows his dad is flawed, but cares about the empire and building the empire and maintaining the

and growing, and it doesn't matter what the costs are. It matters what the outcomes are. You're saying the ends justify the means for Roman? I think Roman is looking at it, and he's almost like an edgelord poster, where he's slash...

So that would be how you would describe him in today's parlance. And you previously described him as a rabid capitalist CEO, a marauding pirate. Those two things are kind of the same, which is, you know, nothing matters. It doesn't matter who's running for president. What matters is we are influential in helping put that person in power and we have a relationship with them. So if it's Trump or it's Obama, all that matters is how does that benefit us?

And where is our seat in power in relation to that? I'll go out on a limb and say that there are zero people who are pure likable on the show. Greg's probably the closest, but it's because he's kind of a bumbling idiot until the moments that he's not. I think he might be... They've kind of been teeing Greg up to have his moment at some point. You get that sense? Yep. I think the ultimate thing would be for him to just get absolutely demolished and that moment to never arrive.

Like, I think that's actually what they're thinking is like, oh yeah, he's going to save the day. And the best possible thing is he doesn't have a trust fund. He gets fired and he has to go start his career over and he's never important. And he's going to sue Greenpeace. Yeah.

Is there a way for me to sue like my grandpa, like in a loving way? No, it's not. Okay. So anyway, secession for us. What do you got, David? You said you don't watch TV or movies. I don't buy it, but okay. Well, I do. I got one TV. I finally, this is how much under a rock I live. Finally, Jenny and I get into Ted Lasso. Big fans. So great. Perfect pandemic. Yeah. So, so great. But,

Instead of TV, my used to be my guilty pleasure is no longer guilty. I fully embraced it. I don't think there's anything to be ashamed of.

I love playing video games. Uh, so I got a, after like a 10, 15 year hiatus, I got the new Xbox. Uh, they came out this summer. Is that five or something? Where are they at? Uh, it's the X and the S I got the S, which is nice. It's real cute. It's a little, so they don't even number it anymore. They're just like, it's the Xbox. And yeah, it's the latest one. And you bought it. And all the, all the games work on all the old ones too. It's just like how good a graphics. It's kind of like how, how dialed in do you want to be? Uh,

I love it. And Xbox game pass is the best. Cause like you can, you get access to dozens, hundreds of games. You only, or Spotify for games. Yeah, exactly. You have a game that you love or a genre of game you love. Oh my God. Halo. I, so I grew up first person shooter. Yup.

I grew up on Halo, like kind of high school, college years, and then hadn't played in so long. And then they have the Master Chief Collection, which is a remastered version of all the old ones. And there's Halo Infinite, the new one coming out. So I've just been...

Playing with all these other old millennials. I will confess as well. I have been playing the new Age of Empires 4, which was re-released. And this is my little tradition. I get the girls to bed, whatever. I have the next game. If it's an early next game, I just record it. I get everybody to bed. And then I sneak back to my office and I pull up Age of Empires, the next game, and my Slack and email.

And I'll play a little Age of Empires, do a little slack in email, watch the Knicks game. And I just have my giant 49-inch monitor, three windows set up. And I can just have two or three hours of watching the Knicks, playing a game, grinding. Because I can't be focused on one thing anymore. My brain is just forever corrupted into multitasking. Oh yeah, tech has broken us. Yeah, my brain's broken. You guys got a book you like?

You got a book or an audio book you like this year? Let's hear it. Earlier this year, after doing all the research for the Andreessen Horowitz, a couple of episodes that we did, obviously they based that a lot on CAA. And so I was like, I should learn about CAA. And I read Michael Ovitz's book. Who is Michael Ovitz? It is so good. I mean, if you like Shoe Dog or Ride of a Lifetime or any of these like

unbelievable business thrillers. It is definitely one of those. And I don't think enough people in our world know about

how powerful CAA and Michael were in their heyday. I have the ultimate build on that. The oral history of creative artist agencies. Your next listen. Yeah. And I'm in the middle of it right now. I am like 12 hours into the audio book. So that's a great compliment to the Ovid's one. And then the other compliment, there it is powerhouse. Um, the other compliment to that is, um, right of a lifetime. Oh, sorry.

So good. Oh, you bought your business. So if you take those three and you put them together as like a little, you know, sesh, you will get all the Disney stuff and the building of Cap Cities and ABC and whatever. CAA is involved in all that stuff going on in Jurassic Park and this and that.

So you get like, it basically gives you the 80s and 90s in Hollywood, and then how you got to the Disney megacorporation. And it's like shining a flashlight on these different corners. It's like lighting up different corners of the universe as you read each one of these books. Yes. And it's Rashomon, like five different versions of the truth to kind of get to what actually happened, right? So if you don't know the reference for folks listening, Kurosawa.

uh, famous Japanese director, famous director period had a film Rosham on Rosham on, which is about a crime that occurs and there's different people's perspectives. So the movie is shown from their different perspectives and it is about the ultimate nature of truth. So great. I, uh, other books and recommended to me that I need to read as part of our, you know, learning about this space in Hollywood and all the analogies to tech, um,

OG. Have you ever read The Genius of the System? It was recommended to me years ago. I got to read it. It's about the OG original studio system. How did that get built up? And then, of course, that's what... It was already starting to fall apart, but then really went over its left. William Morris started CAA. That really blew up the studio system and put the power back in the artist and the agent's hands. Amazing.

I, on the fiction tip, I really like The Martian and the follow-up to that Project Hail Mary came out from Andy Weir. I just bought it. That's my holiday reading. It's great. I really enjoyed it. Yeah. Which one's better? Well, The Martian was so unique.

In terms of his style, I feel like he is like a standard bearer for Michael Crichton, where Crichton would very much get into the science and the technology and then create a great, really fast paced story to go with it. And I actually had Andy Weir on the program. Oh, before the movie came out. But after the book came out, because, you know, he was down in San Jose and I actually went to his apartment. He's like, yeah, you can come to my condo and film me. And I went to his tiny little condo.

before he became a Hollywood guy. No, that's awesome. Yeah, I don't know what episode it is. I'm going to throw it into the chat. And then I hosted a screening of The Martian with him, and I did a Q&A after in San Francisco at the Metreon, and I invited all of our fans to come. So anyway, I think you're going to really like Project Hail Mary. And then, as mentioned... Oh, and then on the bio tip, I finally got around to grinding it out, the Ray Kroc story. Oh. Absolutely fantastic. If you've seen...

The movie, The Founder. Have you seen The Founder? Yep. I have not, but... Incredible. It's slightly fictionalized, but I think it's really good. Well, if you watch the two, it's pretty tight. And then I'll add to it Mark Knopfler's, the leader of Dire Straits, song, Boom Like That, is a song that the director and writer of The Founder

It turns out Mark Knopfler read Ray Kroc's biography in whatever years ago, wrote this song Boom Like That. And then the directors heard the song Boom Like That, read the biography. And so just do those three together. Oh, sweet. So great. So I'm giving you a little trifecta there on the pop culture tip.

I also reread because I started writing my next book. I re-listened to when I was in Italy. What's it on? Can you give us some deets? It's going to be about money. And that's as much as I'll say. Okay. But it's not a tactical book.

like Angel, this is a book, like big think book. And so it's, it's for everybody, but, uh, on writing by Stephen King is, uh, Oh yeah. A really, really great, uh, practical book about writing combined with his story. Uh, and it's just a great moment. He's the best. Well, there's an amazing anecdote. I'll just tell briefly here. He was doing, um, he was a teacher. He wrote like three pages about Carrie and just,

about how this girl had had her first menstruation cycle and the girls made fun of her or whatever. And he was very frustrated with it. He crumpled it up and threw it away. His wife pulled it out, read it, said, you got to finish this. I love this. This is like incredible. Please finish it. He finishes it. He sells it for like

essentially two year salary as a teacher is making like 4 000 he got like 8 000 or 9 000 for this uh you know uh paperback back then paperbacks and and hardcovers were two different deals so he gets the paperback deal the paperback takes the paper the hardcover takes off he sold the hardcover and then the paperback rights are still out there he gets a call from his agent the publisher because the publisher then would split with him whatever they got

publisher of course says hey listen we got you four hundred thousand dollars you get half so you get two hundred thousand goes oh twenty thousand dollars you're kidding he goes no no four hundred thousand you get two hundred okay so i'm you're telling me i'm getting twenty thousand dollars for the paperback i got eight thousand for this it's five times as much that's like forty thousand dollars twenty thousand dollars you realize it's like five times a year salary i can quit job he goes no no steven

We're getting $400,000. You're getting $200,000. And he can't process it, which I related to because at one point with the Uber shares, they had done a stock split of like four to one or something. And so somebody on my team is like, hey, here's the update on this. Because they were not giving us too many updates. Everything was kind of close to the vest. And I was like, whoa, that's a lot of money. And they're like, yeah, it's actually four times that. And I was like, what?

Yeah. It was like, you know, it was like a couple million dollars and then like, you know, tens of millions of dollars. I was like, you're kidding. And they're like, no, we're not kidding. And I was like, oh, okay, there we go. All right. Uh, you, what do you guys got on Stephen King though? Uh, quick shout out his gunslinger series, not as well known, but it's his magnum opus. It's so good. So, so, so good. I've never read his fiction. I got to get in there. Oh, so good. Uh, and then I had working backwards by the way, uh, which is the Amazon book, just cause I'm trying to institute the writing culture inside of my companies.

Great. I got a real quick one sticking with the fiction and the sci-fi building off the Martian, the expanse. I've not watched the TV show, but the books are so good. I feel like not enough people know about these and yeah,

People don't know James S.A. Corey, the author, has a pen name. It's two people who write it together. And either both or at least one of them is George R.R. Martin's assistant. What? So literally, this is Game of Thrones in space. It is exactly that. It is so fantastic. I started watching The Expanse, but I think we fell asleep during it. The books are so good. They're so good. And the last book just came out, wrapping up the whole series. Nine books. It's excellent.

All right. So I think we got all the books. Any more books? Let's go on to podcasts then. Any podcasts that are non-obvious that you guys have gotten into? I'm trying to think. David, did you have a favorite podcast this year? I've got a few.

uh two video game podcasts video game nostalgia history podcasts that i love actually three one og that i've been listening for years wizard and the bruiser is kind of like a fun poppy take on uh nerd culture retrograde amnesia is my new favorite they go through old school rpgs like like playstation era rpgs and they play them and then they like talk about the experience like like beat by beat they do like

50 episodes on a on a game and then resonant arc is another one in the same vein that's also great mine i think is actually a late a late 2020 but i'm going to recommend a single episode of the tim ferris podcast where he interviews jerry seinfeld oh it starts slow but by the end it's maybe the best podcast episode i've ever listened to on jerry the creative process building habits sticking to habits what makes a great comedian twist

I had Tim famously on This Week in Startups, a live episode when I would do live episodes every month in San Francisco or every other month. And famously during that episode, you know, because Tim and I have a personal relationship and he talked a little bit about like his, you know, depression or other issues or whatever, mental health issues. And then he talked about for the first time live in the room, we kind of took everybody back.

his suicidal ideation when he was in college. He then wrote a blog post about that and talked on a show and it became like a top search term. And then somebody who was listening to the show emailed us both

He was going to kill himself, listen to the episode, got help. Oh, wow. Yeah, so pretty heavy stuff. Wow. But Tim and I are good friends and I got a lot of respect for him. I added The Watch, which is a ringer podcast where they talk about TV episodes, but in a long way. And they do every secession episode the night after secession. So now my new habit is I'm about the debrief. So now...

I watch Secession and then I listen to The Watch talk about Secession. And I'll listen to some of their other episodes as well. But they go deep. So you have to have watched the show or else you get spoilered out. And then I will watch, I'll add a streaming show to this. I will watch the Knicks game and then Knicks Fan TV comes on and it's like a call-in radio show using this restream technology we use today. And it's

this changed my Nick's viewing habit because I find the debrief is kind of like, I'm in it for the debrief now. After secession, I like to talk about secession after. Totally. You know, I think that's enough show. Anything else you guys got on the podcast, Ted?

People should subscribe to your show. I think if anyone's, uh, I, I retweeted it. The acquired accountant has been streaming this the whole time. Um, fantastic. Yeah. I can't, I, I can't say enough. Like I, I've been a long time twist listener, but, um, all in is just brain candy in every way. You, you, you light up all the different parts of the brain and keep going.

Yeah, it's, uh, you know, it's really a five person team there. You got the four of us and then producer Nick has done an amazing job just giving up every Friday night. Um, so shout out to producer Nick who is nice. I got one, one real quick holiday rec to end on is a question for you. We actually need your help. Oh, uh, we, we need to give a very nice, uh, gift to a fellow podcaster friend, a friend of the pod. Um,

And we hear that he likes really nice wine. We don't know what to do. I hear you might have a recommendation. We're thinking like really nice, like a few hundred dollars, super nice gift. If we're thinking about the friends I have, a few hundred dollars is not going to do it. Okay, so cheap in your league, but expensive in our league. What's the cheapest bottle of wine you would bring over to like Sax's house for dinner and be like, this is okay? Yeah, I mean, you know what he likes is Pappy Van Winkle.

And I don't know what a bottle of Pappy Van Winkle. That's like $3,500. Sorry. I basically was on his plane. He had a Pappy Van Winkle and I literally just took the bottle. It was like three quarters fall. I was like, I'll just take this home with me. I didn't do that. That's just a joke. I make jokes like that sometimes just to tweak them. He thinks that he really does think I took the Pappy off his plane. He's like, that's a $5,000 reserve bottle. I was like, that's why I took it.

And he doesn't know that I'm joking. And now he's talking to his people like, is that bottle missing? They're like, yeah, we actually think one of the bottles is missing. I know his pilots are taking those bottles too, by the way. Can I ask a question about Sax's plane real quick? Does he just have like an incredible liquor cabinet like stored on his plane or do you bring it on for every flight?

All right. I don't want to speak out of turn. You're not supposed to talk about private aviation because it's like rule number one of private aviation. Is that an out-of-bounds question? Totally. You never talk about it. You never take pictures of it unless you're Phil Hellmuth. It has no... We call him... I nicknamed Phil Hellmuth the Duke of Discretion because if you watch... And I love Phil, so don't take it the wrong way. But we call him the Duke of Discretion because...

Like literally, he got to Miami yesterday and he walked through this giant J-Lo house and talked about the helipad and everything. And he just talks about pH nice life. So every time he's on a plane or I've been on a plane with Phil Helmuth, he's like taking pictures out in front of the plane. And I'm like, oh, like, this is a high profile person, like the tail number. And, you know, like it's sometimes it's his friends in sports. And it's like, I wouldn't say Michael Jordan's plane, but it's a Michael Jordan level person, you know, and you're like, Phil, no pictures.

And he's like, no, it's not for Instagram. And then you go on his Instagram. Of course, it's there two days later or whatever. It's on a delay. But I think what I would say, Nick, is when you do take these, the meal and the wine would be somebody's assistant would have thought that through and probably curated that.

So that's kind of one of the fun things about when you have a plane, or at least I've, some people just get like the standard food. But I've been, you know, it's just terrible, but serviceable. But what some people do is whatever city you're in, the flight attendants, I've seen this a number of times, the flight attendants will source whatever the best restaurant is in that town or whatever.

And they'll say, hey, can I get a to-go for this flight? And so one time I was flying out of Boston and like, we literally had the best chicken parm, gnocchis and whatever from like some North Beach. And it was just like, this is, that was Chamath's plan. I can say that. But anyway, Chamath sent this person to, you know, like find the best Italian place. We're like pounding chicken parm, you know, whatever. Yeah.

Yeah, and of course it's paired with something nice, so. Amazing. Okay, okay. All right, so it's been an amazing episode. We can't let you go. Sub $1,000 bottle of wine. I have to think it through. I'll get back to you with the rest. Or send us your wine person. Oh, you know what else? I don't really drink, is the thing. I would actually say a dessert wine is not a bad call because they do cap out. So Chateau Yakem, is that how you pronounce it? I'm learning about a new thing, so I don't know. It's basically dessert wine is a whole category. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Chateau de Yquem. Yes. And so I would look at that Chateau de Yquem. Saltaren. Okay. Basically, they take like the late grapes. They're very sweet. And you can get into one of these bottles, like the small ones. They're kind of like the half-sized dessert wines that you might see at a fancy restaurant. They bring out and give you a small little bit of it. Tastes like honey and raisins and fruit. It's very dense and fortified.

So it's kind of like a port, but it's a little bit lighter. And if you have a significant other, I would just buy yourself a half bottle of this and crack it open after dinner one night and

Love it. Absolutely delicious. Like skip dessert and have this. $2.75 to $7.50. So perfect. Yeah, that's perfect. Because there are half bottles, which will be small. And then there's the full bottles. You probably want to go with the full bottle. You don't want to spend the $7.50 or $5.50. You don't want to look like you're cheaping out on a nice gift. And what's very important about these, I'll just say, is the years can have very different profiles. So just go on wine.com or one of those wine rating sites and just find out which is the good year to get. Because that's how these wine people think.

They know all the brands of wine. They're on the next level of knowing the vintages and which ones were great. So if you had a choice to get a half bottle at twice the price, but the right vintage, that would be the power move in a wine gift. Make sure you get the right vintage. The other thing I would pair with it is a Dandelion Chocolate, which is a chocolate company in San Francisco. Yeah. I do all my gifting from them and I just made a small angel investment in the company. Yeah.

very privately like um but they have chocolate bars that are all high percentage dark chocolate you know we're talking 12 bars of chocolate that are artisanal but that are kind of life-changing because you have you break open one of those bars you know at dinner after dinner and just crack it open everybody have a little piece boom just really delightful all right it's been an amazing episode of the acquired fm podcast and this week in startups

You know what to do. Have a great holiday, everybody. It's just great to know you guys. We have to bro out. Like, we have to like, are you guys going to Miami for our Basel and pre-money? We're not in P2 league yet. Oh, no, that's what we should do. Why don't we do, this would be a great 2022 for us. Why don't we do this live?

This Week in Startups acquired Crossover Live. 100%. Where are you guys based? Seattle or something? I'm Seattle. He's San Francisco. So you're neighbors. All right. So then you fly to us and we'll do it in Redwood City or something. There's a nice theater there or something. Or we could do it in the city if Chesapeake doesn't arrest me. I'm sure we can find a spot. And let's just do like an intimate, I don't know, 100 to 200 people.

Sell the seeds, you know, break even on it and then maybe have a little party afterwards, you know, like post-COVID or whatever. That sounds amazing. That is a great 2022 plan. All right. Anywhere for people to follow you? At Gilbert.

Pretty nice. At Gilbert or at EJ Rosent or at Acquired FM or just search Acquired in any podcast player. Listen to Acquired. Watch us on YouTube. We're on YouTube now. Oh, fantastic. Excellent. Yeah. We got these nice professional video setups. Yeah. You guys look great. Really good lighting and everything. All right. Listen, this has been great. Thanks, guys. Thank you.