The Labor of Love with Francesca Hogi
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It's what all the poets write about, all the musicians sing about, and all the broken-hearted cry about. That's right, we're going to talk about love. And I was lucky enough to sit down with Francesca Hoagie. Some of you may recognize her as a contestant on Survivor. But she was also a corporate lawyer and a matchmaker. And these days, she teaches people about romantic relationships and self-love. And turns out, love is a labor. This is...

is a bit of optimism. Francesca, how are you? I am doing very well. Very excited to talk to you, as always. How are you, Simon? I'm very well indeed. It's nice to be back doing the podcasting. So I really am excited to talk to you because you study a subject that almost all of us struggle with.

How to find it and then how not to screw it up once you've got it. Yeah.

I know. Isn't it wild how challenging that can be? It's the most basic human stuff, right? Absolutely. Well, at least that's what I think. You mentioned something the other day that I think is brilliant, which is the history of dating is not what we think it is. Yeah, it's definitely not. And when people complain about dating and dating culture, I like to point out to them that

This is a social experiment. In terms of the span of human history, it is just the tiniest of blips on the radar. So when did we start dating? Just take us on a little journey of the history of dating.

Yes. So before around 1900 or late 1890s, there really wasn't such a thing as dating because the way that we made it was it was more about community. It was about culture, was about tradition. It was about property succession. So arranged marriage was very common in many cultures. And even where it wasn't specifically arranged, we still mostly said, OK, here's the pool of people you have to choose from based on whatever relationship.

the norms of that culture are. And then it's like, choose one of those. Women often didn't have a choice at all, right? Women have been getting married off as young girls for most of human history. So the fact that we are now in this place where you actually get to choose who you spend your life with and who you partner with, that's actually very, very new. It's a new invention. It's an American invention.

And it coincides with the, of course, it's like we invented all sorts of things and we also invented dating. So America to thank for this. I'm watching House of the Dragon. And of course, the discussion of being married off for maintaining alliances for the strength of the monarchy. Even as recent as Prince Charles and Princess Diana, he had to marry someone of blue blood who was a virgin. Yes. Yes.

All of these old traditions. And so turn of the century, what happened? What happened was the Industrial Revolution. Manufacturing came to the cities of America and they needed workers. And so for the first time, people were leaving their small towns and they were leaving their farms and they were going to the cities to find work.

It was an unprecedented migration of single young people to cities. That's not something that had ever happened before. And so now you have all of these working class young people moving to cities. And all of a sudden, people start finding new ways to connect. And it completely upends the traditional way that we dated in our culture. And it was controversial from the start.

It was so controversial that it was common for women in particular to be arrested, right, for being seen in public with a man to whom they were not married. It was called being a public woman. And it was often conflated with being a prostitute. I mean, really, like the FBI has its roots in actually policing dating, which is a very

which is really crazy. The initial agency that turned into the FBI, they were all about vice and prostitution was one of their primary concerns. And they considered all these young women in these cities going on dates to be prostitutes. So...

So it's, you know, it wasn't that long ago, right? And in our history, and it really took about 30 years of dating in cities. And it was a very working class phenomenon, right? Because still the upper classes had their more traditional ways of courtship. So once it was normalized, it's less than 100 years that we've been trying to figure out how dating works.

Yes. Yes, exactly. Which is crazy. And as you said, it was more working class. If you consider all of society, it's a lot less than 100 years. Yes. Yep, absolutely. That's why I think we all need to give ourselves a little grace because we're figuring things out, right? And our society has changed so rapidly and so drastically over the last 100 years. And a lot of the expectations people have about relationships and dating are really old-fashioned.

Right. And so it's like, no, no, no, we got to catch up and we have to redefine and we have to understand that this whole dating culture is something that everyone is co-creating. And if we do that with more awareness and more intention, then it becomes easier for everyone. Are we having conversations about how to modernize dating? Because dating is clearly a different thing than it was 20 years ago, 10 years ago. Yeah.

Yes. There used to be a time where somebody would have to muster up the courage to go up to somebody in a bar or at a restaurant or at a social event and be like, hey,

Hey, you want to go out? You know, like now there's no courage required. You just swipe right. And if you're lucky enough that they also swiped right, ta-da, you can go on a date. How do we modernize our approach to dating given the changes in technology and culture that helps us to be more likely to find the thing we're actually looking for?

Modern dating has been completely revolutionized by online dating, dating apps, even just I mean, I really call it digital dating now. I don't really just call it online dating because we date on all sorts of platforms. We date on social media, anywhere where humans connect on the Internet. There is a possibility for dating.

But people are looking for these very traditional roles and these traditional rules to really lean on. And they just don't hold up the way that they used to. And so I think that it's important to have these conversations so people can start to say, okay, I'm willing to put...

aside some of these traditional ideas that I've had about dating because I see how it's not working anymore, right? I see how it's actually getting in the way of what I truly want to experience and then start to really prioritize, okay, what do I need in a relationship?

You know, I talk a lot about relationship dynamics and the fact that when we go about dating, we typically are very focused on, okay, what are the traits of this person? You know, I want somebody who's XYZ. I want somebody who looks like this. I want somebody who makes this much money, et cetera. But I actually like people to take a step back and think about the relationship itself.

Because relationships have qualities. Relationships have dynamics. So unless you are looking for a relationship where the dynamic is, you know, the man is calling the shots, right?

And you as the woman are following his lead and he's the provider. Unless you are actually looking for a relationship in which you have that traditional dynamic, then you really need to look at how you're dating. And most people don't actually want that type of relationship, but they're still approaching dating with that expectation and with that dynamic. That causes a lot of problems. One of the things I find interesting about modern dating, the way dating used to work pre-tech,

was you would meet somebody at a birthday party, in a museum, wherever you did, and you found each other physically attractive, and you flirted with your eyes, and maybe you talked and you flirted some more. And then one of you said, "You want to go out sometime?" The attraction and flirting happened before the connection to go on a date.

Yes. And now there's none of that. You show up quote unquote on your first date because you both swiped right.

And now you're attempting to flirt and discover physical attraction and get to know the person on the actual first date. Yes. Which is a little bit like an arranged relationship where you're showing up and meeting for the first time sitting in the room because our parents told us that we had to marry. And we're like, so you want to get a bite to eat? So maybe digital dating and forcing us to meet people that we don't actually know and haven't flirted with is actually...

The most traditional thing we can do.

The difference is in the prior arranged relationships, if you said no, the parents were like, sorry. Whereas here, it's an arranged marriage with an escape button. Yeah. Well, and also the other thing is that before, the reason that arranged marriages worked, I say work, I don't know if there's really any other option. But even, you know, there's still arranged marriages happening in cultures today, right? Like in India, for instance. In India, they call marriage as arranged marriage by default, right?

And then there's love marriage, which is this dating. And India is going through a really interesting transition because they have this clash of the traditional and the modern. However, that works when everybody is ascribing to the same values, to the same motivation for getting married, when everyone's on the same page, right? And they understand like, okay, well, marriage is about family. It's about relationships.

It's about, you know, it's about succession. It's about, so with everybody's on that same page, then you're not going, well, you know, this person like, yeah, they're kind of cool, but you know, they do this really annoying thing when they chew. And I just, eh, you know, I mean, yeah.

or like, oh my God, or like, oh, they were wearing these shoes. And I just, I just can't see myself being with somebody who would wear shoes like that, you know? So that's another thing is that the expectation now is you're going to be my best friend. You're going to be the best sex I ever had. You're going to have all of my same interests and hobbies. You know, you're going to seamlessly fit into my life and me into yours and everything is going to magically work out and we're going to live happily ever after.

So, that expectation is a challenging one. So, Francesca Hoagy, expert in love. Now we've talked about the problems. Let's talk about how do I show up on my first date? How do I find love? What do I do in the relationship? Tell us, teach us, help us all. So number one, it's really important for people to understand that your romantic relationships, just like all of your relationships, are a co-creation.

It's not about finding one perfect person who just magically fits into your life and you never have to make an effort. You know, you never have to grow. You never have to deepen in your, your ability to communicate or to be vulnerable or to compromise. You have to understand that from the very beginning, from that first date, you were setting up a dynamic.

Because so many people go into dating with this attitude of like, you know, first of all, I'm looking for instant chemistry. And if it's not there instantly, then I'm just checked out. Instant chemistry, as magical as it is, it's also a very unreliable indicator of long-term compatibility. So you take that as like, okay, I'm attracted to this person, but does that mean this person is actually capable of being the partner that

and co-creating a relationship that I want. This is about how you show up on a date. Because if you're showing up on a date and you are folding your arms and you're sort of leaning back and you're kind of like, okay, show me what you got. You know, woo me. If that's your energy going into a date, then you are not taking any responsibility for

your half of this dynamic that you're creating. You can go on a date and you can say, all right, I don't know if I want to rip this person's clothes off, but I'm here. Let me be open. Let me see what we can spark together. And so then it's more of a leaning in and everything from the conversation that you're having to your body language, to just being present in that moment. And then at the end of the date, you see, you're like, okay, you know what? Maybe at the beginning, I didn't

think that I was so attracted to them. But, you know, by the end, you're like, you know, actually, when he was talking about, you know, what he really loves about his job, his face really lit up and he has a nice smile. And, you know, is the needle moving? It's more about sort of training yourself to start to look for the good, which is not settling.

Because I never want people to settle rather than what makes this person a no. It's like, well, is there anything here that makes this person a yes? I love this idea of looking for what's right about somebody because I think so often we show up on dates and we start crossing things off the list. Nope, you don't have this. Nope, you don't have that. Oh, I didn't like the way you answered that question.

It's like a bad job interview. And I love the idea of showing up with an open mind and finding out what's right with them. And then you can still leave and say, I don't think I'm interested, but they're a good person. Yeah. And you tried. And I tried. And I like that. So I'm an introvert, right?

And I'm not good at social situations because I put up a lot of pressure myself, like say something funny, say something funny, say something funny. And so for years, I would meet someone in a dating app and the anxiety of having to be charming and funny and all of these things. And I would fill up with lots of coffee. So I had lots of energy. I'd show up and I'd have an amazing time because I did all the talking and found myself unbelievably charming.

And then there either wouldn't be a second date or if there was, they were attracted to all the wrong stuff about me, which is this hyper jacked up on energy, which is not who I am all the time. And so a string of failed relationships, either no more date or we'd get into the wrong thing. They were attracted to the wrong thing. One of the greatest gifts I was ever given. I went on a date, the pattern was there and I had a great time. And I said to her, look, I've had a great time and I'd love to see you again.

And she goes, Simon, I think you're great. And I don't want to see you again. And I was like, what? And she's like, I think you're great, but you're too much. Listen, ask me a question. Be curious. We actually became friends, never dated again, but we became friends. And I was so grateful that she just told me what was wrong with my date on my date. Yes, that is a gift that she gave you. I had the pattern of going on lots of dates,

I'm like, this was a great date, not getting asked on a second date or maybe getting asked on a second date, but not getting asked on a third date. But I finally realized I was like, okay, I'm the common denominator in this pattern. And so I gave myself a challenge. I'm my first client because I actively decided I needed to teach myself how to date because I clearly didn't know what I was doing. Right. And so I said, okay, my goal at the time was

was I want to go on a date and I want to be asked on a second date. Even if I don't want to go, even if I decide I don't want to go, that's my intention going into my dates. And it completely changed the way that I dated because it made me then say, well, what is this person responding to? What actually makes another person feel good? Because I wasn't doing what you were doing exactly, but I was doing my own version of that because I'm also an introvert. And so I was being very guarded

And I was asking a lot of questions, but I was doing it like interview style. You know, I wasn't doing it in a conversational way. Because that way you didn't have to talk about yourself. Because I didn't have to talk about myself. Right. And so I realized people don't want to just be asked about their job and where they went to school. These interview questions that people default to so often on dates, they are not conducive to creating a real connection. Right.

So I started saying to people, tell me what it is that you love about your job. Or if you could do anything in the world and get paid $10 million a year to do it, what would you choose? Just started asking them questions where there was no right or wrong answer.

but it was just genuinely, I wanted to learn something about them that was meaningful. When you give people that attention and you have that genuine curiosity, it makes people feel good. Like we all want to feel seen. We all want to feel special. We all want to feel acknowledged. And when you give somebody that energy,

and they're able to receive it, they're going to give it back to you. This was actually how I learned how to flirt. Because I was like, oh, this is really what flirting is. I mean, there are lots of different styles of flirting. I could talk for hours about flirting. It's one of my favorite topics. I define, you know, flirting at its core is taking actions to make another person feel seen, special, and acknowledged. That's the baseline. Let's say that again slowly, because that's really good. Flirting is...

Taking actions or saying things that makes another person feel seen, feel special, and feel acknowledged. Yes. Okay. Like you can add on layers, but this is the core. There are many different styles of flirting. Just being attentive is a style of flirting. There doesn't have to be anything sexual about it. I'm just really paying attention to you. You're so interesting.

Compliments are a style of flirting. Physical touch is a style of flirting. Some people have a formal style of flirting. Some people have a playful style of flirting. I mean, there are lots of different ways to go about it. It's just understanding what works for you. So I found that I am an amazing attentive flirter. Like I have a really good ability to just turn that laser beam of attention on another person and just make them feel good, right?

So once I discovered that was my superpower in dating, dating got way easier because everybody wanted to see me again because everybody wants to feel good. Everybody wants to feel seen. Everybody wants to feel special. Jessica, this is very good. So let me raise a question. So I know that the way Americans date and the way Europeans date is very different. In general, it is fairly an accepted practice in the United States that if you're quote unquote dating, you are canceling.

casually seeing a few people, meeting a few people. You can go on a few dates a week, a few dates a month. It's not considered socially irresponsible. And you're seeing where one of them goes. And that's very acceptable American dating. In France, for example, the minute you meet someone, you're with them. You date no one else.

From the first date that you go on, you're with this person, whether it lasts a week, two weeks, a month, a year, you're all in for one person until you're not all in anymore. There's something to be said for...

At least being open to that, right? Like, hey, if we really like each other, we really connect. Let's just see where this goes. I mean, I've been with my boyfriend since our first date. That was it. We stopped dating other people and we've been together since then. But I think in general, we actually need to date more than one person. And it also depends. Some of the clients that I work with are out of long-term relationships. They've been married or with somebody for 10 years, 20 years.

And so for them, they actually need to date multiple people because they need to really discover themselves through that process because you're so used to one way of doing things, right? And then to go out with somebody, you're like, oh my God, people behave this way. Like that can be me. So the contrast can be really helpful. Now, if you're a person who's like,

You're a serial dater. You've been, I mean, I've been on hundreds of dates in my life. Okay. So have you just been on date after date, after date, after date, and you're still in this like, well, I just got to keep all these balls in the air because I just can't decide. Then it's time to take a step back and to really get some internal clarity on, well, what is it that you're actually looking for?

And do you even know what that looks like? Would you even recognize it if you saw it? Maybe not, right? Given the fact that you're dating and dating and dating. So it's somewhere in between. You touched upon something that I think is worth double clicking on, which is that you have to discover who you are. Yeah. Where dating becomes not just a mechanism to learn about another person, but it's also a mechanism to learn who you are. And you said, if you're the kind of person who doesn't like to open up,

for whatever fear of damage, fear of overexposing yourself, whatever, fear of getting hurt. Fear of rejection. You're probably not going to find the love you're looking for. And that's internal work. Dating now becomes internal work. And look, we've all been rejected. Yes. We've all done it, where we really like somebody, whatever reason they don't like us, which may or may not have anything to do with us, but we don't know that.

But we all have the capacity to start forming a narrative of replaying the events. I shouldn't have said that. Shouldn't have warned that. Shouldn't have done that. And we go deep inside of this beating ourselves up for why this person didn't like us. Yes. Walk me through how fear of rejection or the feeling of rejection, how do we overcome that?

Because without being able to have that skill of overcoming that, finding love is going to be much harder. This is everything. I mean, love is an inside job. And it's so challenging for people to grasp that because we've been so indoctrinated by the fairytale industrial complex to think about it as if I just meet a perfect person and they choose me, then I'll live happily ever after, right? Then it becomes this, well, if I'm not...

If I'm not being quote unquote chosen, if I haven't found that person, there's something wrong with me. So the first thing is to understand that the only reason that we ever fall in love with anyone is because they are unlike anyone else we've ever met.

So if you're going, I mean, it's like, no one's ever said like, oh my God, like she's so amazing. Like she's just like everyone else I've ever met. I want to spend the rest of my life with her. Right. So, so it's like, you have to understand that being yourself is the only way that you're actually going to meet the person who loves you for who you are. Like, I mean, it's so basic, right?

So the reason that I talk a lot about rejection and I like to reframe it for people is to understand that everyone is bringing their own experiences, their own preferences, their own fears, their own traumas, all their own programming to the table. And so somebody not wanting to date you is actually always about them.

Just like you wanting to date somebody, it's always about you. It's about your preferences, about all that. So it is always the case. Like you said, everybody has felt rejected. I don't care. You could look at anybody you think you look at and go, oh, they're the most beautiful person and they're the most handsome. They're the most successful. They're the most amazing. Everybody has felt rejected. Rejection is a story about you not being good enough in some way. And the reality is that you are not for everyone.

Everyone is not for you. Not everybody wants to date you. Not everybody wants to be with you. Just like you don't want to date everyone and you don't want to be with everyone, right? And so if you can just start to take things a little less personally...

And start to focus on, well, what do I want? I don't care how much you are convinced that this person is the perfect person for you. And the two of you should just be together and they just need to see if you are convinced somebody is the perfect person for you and they disagree, you're wrong. You just are. And that's okay, right? You don't have to judge yourself about it, but it is an opportunity for you to say, okay, well,

What did I like about that person? Because a lot of the times the people that we're drawn to, we're drawn to because we're looking for approval for something that we feel insecure about. If you can start to understand how much really who we're even drawn to in the first place is a projection and a reflection of what's going on internally with us, the more we can see that in other people as well and take things less personally. And let's be crystal clear, recognize that rejection is their issue, not yours, assuming you're showing up as yourself.

But that doesn't mean you can't still be sad or disappointed. Absolutely. You can still have feelings of being sad or disappointed, but

But then you say to yourself, look, I guess I'm not right for them. And that's fine. You can still be sad and disappointed and not feel rejected. I'm glad you made that point because it is so important to say that. I mean, your feelings are valid. Feel the sadness. Feel the disappointment. Feel the embarrassment. It can be grief. I mean, if you, I don't know about you, but I've been broken up with by somebody who I thought I was going to marry.

Right. When he broke up with me, it was like there were so many things I had to process. It was like my whole vision that I'd had of the future. I had to grieve that I had to let myself feel all those feelings. But the thing about rejection is that it's always a story because there's what happened.

And rejection is a story that it was because I wasn't good enough. It's because there's something wrong with me. And even if, you know, maybe you messed up, right? Maybe you messed up in the relationship. Maybe you were terrible at listening. Maybe you cheated. Maybe you were unable to compromise. You know, there's, it's not, it's not to say that you're perfect. No one's perfect. And, you know, relationships give us opportunities to learn. Nothing teaches us about ourselves like romantic relationships do. Right. And so if you can take those lessons and,

And you can use them rather than create a story of now I'm just not good enough. And, you know, no one's ever going to want to be with me because that will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Because if you're really fearful of rejection, I mean, if you're extremely fearful of rejection, you won't date at all. You will not be open to anybody seeing you or loving you. And that becomes a prison.

And if you are mildly fearful of rejection, it's going to show up differently, but there's still going to be some part of you that's always going to be withholding your authentic self because you're now more focused on being accepted by this person rather than finding somebody for whom you are actually genuinely a great match. You said something before that I really, I wrote it down. You said love is an inside job.

And the thing that I love about that is dating is relationship preparation or relationship practice. Yes. So every date should make me slightly better at being in a relationship. Like I'm using all of these dates to become a better listener.

Yeah. And as I'm improving my listening skills, eventually my dates will start to go better. And if one of them becomes a relationship, I'm already a good listener and I learned from the dating. I didn't have to learn it in the relationship. Or at least I didn't have to start learning it in the relationship. Hopefully the learning never stops. It doesn't. It never stops. And that's the other thing. There's no finish line. I have a motto. I have many mottos, but one of them is no bad dates.

And no bad dates. It's a mindset. It's an approach. Because if you understand, even if this person isn't the love of my life, if I'm approaching this date with the right intention and the right presence, I am growing through this date.

I'm discovering something about myself through this date. Even if what I'm discovering is I need to get better at my date selection. I need to get better at discerning who is and who isn't a good match for me. Because if you're going on terrible date after terrible date after terrible date, that's a lesson for you. And again, learning that is going to help you to learn how to pick a partner who's actually the right partner for you.

This is a great insight because I know that every relationship I've ever had was better than the previous one because I learned something. But I've never taken it down to the date level where every date that I have should help me be a better boyfriend at some point. I love that insight. I really love that insight. And showing up with that kind of student mentality and the desire to learn and improve on a date, the dates will go better.

even if it doesn't turn into a relationship or not, because you're showing up for them. You're not showing up for yourself. Also, when you say love is an inside job, it points to the fact that whether you're dating or in a relationship, you're always working on yourself. Yes. So why do relationships fail? Okay, we did all the dating. Great. Ta-da. This is amazing. You're the one. I fall in love with you.

Why did I fall out of love? I mean, why relationships fail? I mean, we could do a whole other podcast about that. But, you know, first of all, even just the word fail, right? I think is...

But I understand what you mean, so I'm not going to be semantical. Because a relationship ending is not necessarily a failure, right? Sometimes a relationship ending is a triumph because you have chosen your own self, your own integrity. You love yourself enough to know that you deserve more than what you might have settled for.

So why most relationships don't work out in my personal opinion is because most people get into relationships through a lens of projection. And they're just expecting that, okay, now it's your job to make me happy. I mean, how many times do you say that? I just want somebody who makes me happy, right? And if you don't understand that if you are an unhappy person, like your relationship will never be happier than you are. Your relationships will never be happier than you are.

Oh, God, that's a sting.

You know, the amount of pressure we put on another person or on our relationships to be the salve, to be the antidote to my unhappiness. I will be happy if dot, dot, dot. Yes. It's unfair to put that pressure on another person that you are responsible for my happiness. Your relationships will never be happier than you are. I mean, that really points to the fact that love is an inside job. This is what I'm learning from this conversation with you. Whether I'm in a relationship or out of a relationship, I need to work on myself.

But because our relationships, we're social animals and our relationships present us all the human problems and point out all our blind spots and make all of our worst habits front and center because we're affecting another person, that the best way to work on ourselves is actually to be in relationship and include dating in that. Like to be in relationship in communication with another human being is the single best way to work on ourselves. And the idea of the best way to become a better version of yourself is

is to find someone who's on the same journey as you. Absolutely. That we enter into this partnership, into this union to make ourselves better. And in so doing, we'll make the other person better. I'm not showing up to fix you, help you, heal you, but I'm showing up to be fixed, be healed,

be improved and in so doing, we, we grow. Yes. We become better. Yes. We become more deeply in love. Yes. Doesn't it make it easier? Don't you feel relieved just thinking about that? Because one of the biggest problems with modern dating is that people feel incredibly disempowered. They think the opposite of love being an inside job. They

As soon as you think that, you're giving away all of your power and you're now putting such an unattainable burden of expectation on another person who has their own internal life that they're dealing with.

So I really teach people to focus on, first of all, their own personal happiness, but also to focus on people who understand that they're responsible for their own happiness too. This is not a selfish disposition. It's worth parsing out this nuance, which is I have to put my happiness first is not what we're talking about. It's not even prioritizing my happiness. I'm just working on myself because I will make sacrifices for you. And I will ask that you make sacrifices for me. There are compromises that come in relationships.

So I want to just make sure because I think there's also a movement of like, I come first, me, me, me. And that's going right back to where we started, which is you were responsible for making me happy because I've declared what makes me happy. And now you have to give it to me. Yes, exactly. What we're saying is love is an inside job, which means I want to constantly work on being a better version of myself so that I can show up as the best version of myself for you. Francesca Hoagie, I know one thing.

I love talking to you. I love talking to you too, Simon. I really, really appreciate this. I, though we were done talking, I will continue. This will, this will continue with me long after I, I hang up. So this is, uh,

This is great. Thank you so, so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it. If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsenic.com for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself. Take care of each other.

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