Drive with professional racer Danica Patrick
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For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end. It sent the message that we can prosecute these people. Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello and welcome to Haunting, Purgatory's premiere podcast. I'm your host, Teresa. We'll be bringing you different ghost stories each week straight from the person who experienced it firsthand. Some will be unsettling, some unnerving, some even downright terrifying. But all of them will be totally true.

Listen to Haunting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life in marriage. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words that I've said like in my head for like 16 years.

Tenacity, grit, drive. These are essential characteristics if you want to make it in any industry, in any category. But what does it take to be the only female driver on the track in American motorsport?

That is Danica Patrick. When she drove, she was the only woman competing in such a male-dominated sport. But what happens when someone like that leaves the track, leaves the competition? Where does all that tenacity and grit get channeled? More interestingly, what happens to your self-worth? This is a bit of optimism. You have this drive that is...

quite inspiring. You just want to do things and accomplish things. Do you know where it comes from? What I really like to do is I like to try things that are

scary or hard, I wanna do 'em. I like to do things to make sure that I can. I just wanna make sure that I can, if I need to be challenged and pushed really hard to the edge, I like to push myself in that way. I would say I get a goal and I'm goal-driven, but I'm quite process-inspired. So along the way,

It's actually the process that I'm enjoying. So the reason why I stopped racing was because every year I felt like there was an opportunity to do better, finish higher, have more success. And when I didn't feel like that was a potential anymore, I was like, I'm done. Because that was what I loved. I loved the journey part. I loved setting a goal and accomplishing it. Yeah. Well, let's get into that.

You are a role model for a lot of women because you were pretty much the only woman, not pretty much, you were the only woman in a man's sport. You raced Indy cars and then later NASCARs. And it wasn't like there was a women's league. Because driving is interesting, right? Because the reason we tend to have...

men and women divisions, I mean, like if you're a marathoner, there's the women's first and there's the men's first, right? You know, like there's different metals. Yeah. As because of the biological differences. Totally. I mean, that is the reason. Yep. But in driving, anyone can drive the car and may the best driver win. Right. And so I understand why it should work. So number one, and you've said some controversial things here. You've got a bit of flack for this, which is why aren't there more women driving cars against men in any...

you know, NASCAR, Indy, F1, stock car, pick a category. There are no women. You're it. You're it. There's not a lot of them. Why not? I really think that there's just, there's like a killer instinct that I have in me that I don't think is super common. And it's like, you have to be able to get into these really

competitive, aggressive, contentious environments and you have to have the confidence to go for it. You can't get scared. And there's been girls that have been fast or had speed, but when it gets into the race situation...

It's a little bit more challenging. They don't necessarily shine as much. And this isn't... Again, we're talking in generalities here. There's some girls that have done really well. But I think that it's very... I think it's less common. I think my dad is part of it too. I mean, when I was a kid, he pushed me pretty hard. Yeah. So...

Even when I was fast, like be the fastest go-kart in the class, like I'd be the fastest. And even if I was a couple of tenths quicker or a half a second quicker, which these are a lot of time, he would still keep pushing. And so there was an idea that was placed in me that nothing's ever enough.

And trust me, that's had its repercussions in my life. Never enough. Oh, woe is me. But it really did help me accomplish great things. So if you were a guy, your career wouldn't have stood out. Exactly. You didn't win enough. Right. Totally. I mean, you won one Indy race, right? That's right. Yeah. And if you were a male racer, no one would know your name. Probably true. So you being a female in a man's sport, in a traditionally men's sport...

And you've done well, but you were, like I said, how many races have you raced? A lot. Yeah. I raced for 27 years. You raced for 27 years and you won one. Well, one IndyCar race. One IndyCar race. Sorry, but NASCAR. I didn't win a NASCAR. No NASCAR. I qualified on the pole at the Daytona 500, but I didn't win any. Right. I had a bunch of top tens, but... So walk me through that. Well, I mean...

I don't doubt that I was given opportunities because of being a female. Sure, sure. It's absolutely part of my story and I'm grateful for it. But look, it's a double-edged sword being a girl because if I go out and have a good race and finish fourth, they're going to talk about it, right? Right. And so they wouldn't have otherwise. Right. But also if I...

don't do well at all, they'll talk about that too. And if I say something or I get angry at a driver, like all this stuff makes the news. So there's the other side of it, which is getting judged and being questioned a lot. And so you have to endure that side of it. Basically, the point is, is that everything I do is analyzed a little bit harsher and a little bit more. So I did have to deal with that. It's,

It's always a balance in life. Like there's always just sort of a bit of duality or polarity to balance out the good with the bad. But I think that's true for women in the workplace too. You know, a man in the workplace who's hard driving is considered like...

oh, he's impressive, where a woman who's hard-driving in the business world might be considered a bitch. Like, you know, there are unfair double standards in the aggression or drive or ambition that someone shows at work. And I think, to your point, the spotlight is on a woman more in the workplace. And I think

being the lone woman in the race, it really focuses on that double standard. But I do find it interesting that if you were a man, we probably wouldn't be sitting here talking about your racing career. Yeah. Yeah, but it comes with the other side. So what do you want young girls to learn from you as a role model? Just that they can do anything that they really want to do. That's it. It's just like,

I was different, but I still did it. And I think that the real, I think one of the big reasons why I was as successful as I was

is because I didn't think of myself as being different. And I think that I was able to go, my expectation levels weren't to be the best girl. My expectation levels were to be the best. And so you don't get what you want. You get what you expect. Right. And so I expected to win. So I got closer than most ever have. And I did win, you know, so

That's why I think it's more of a mindset thing about not wanting to isolate as a female so much. - I think this is a great insight, which is I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves, or other people put pressure on us, that if you're gonna compete you have to win, which is incorrect.

you have to compete. Like it's the Teddy Roosevelt quote, you know, what is the Teddy Roosevelt quote about being in the stadium in the game? Oh yeah, the man in the arena. You're in the arena, right? In the arena, yeah. Yeah, you're all criticizing the person but that's the one that's putting their blood, sweat and tears because they're the one in the arena. Like people can criticize whether you won or didn't win but the difference is you're in the game. Yeah. And the difference is you're showing up to win and whether you had pull or not, whether you won or not,

The point is, is you were in the arena and you were fighting every day as with all the other gladiators. And

And you were good enough to compete. Oh, yeah. You were good enough to be in the arena. And that's a big deal. And there were only 20, 25 gladiators in IndyCar. In the whole world. Exactly. And there were only 40 gladiators in NASCAR once you went. In the whole world. And so these are all people that. It's an elite, elite, elite group. Yeah, I had to kick a lot of ass to get there. Yeah. And while I didn't win as much, it's still like, that's why, you know, people along the way, you get to the very top and it's like, yeah, but they're better than 99%.

of everyone in the world. Right. There has to still be a best and it might not be you but you are still part of like the top, top echelon. It's like the Olympian who came in last. It's like, well they won everything to get to the Olympics. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Like they're all champions in every other competition. I was having a conversation with

a friend about this. That's true, because you had to win every race to get to. Oh, I won so much in go-karting. Like, to get people to notice me, I won so much. To get on a team, to get on an F500 team, to get on an Indy 500 team. Yeah, I had to do well. I had to run really well. I had to win. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had to impress people. I think we forget that. It's a great point, which is we forget what it takes to get somewhere. Yeah. And the mere fact that, as you said, there's only 25 drivers and 40 in NASCAR in the whole world. Yeah. That's it. That's the entire sport. Mm-hmm.

It's not like the pro leagues in baseball and football where there's hundreds of players all in. You know, there's 20. And even that's still admirable. And to simply be in the arena, I think we forget that. I think that's wonderful. The drive is to be in the arena, not necessarily to win. But I think without...

the drive to win, you don't have a chance of making it to the arena. No, I agree with that. I agree with that. Did you ever see the movie Senna? Yeah. Yeah, I did. About Ayrton Senna? Yeah. So Senna is one of my favorite documentaries of all time. It was very good. I've seen it six or seven times. I cry every time, by the way. I know exactly what's going to happen. I cry every time. What I love about Senna is even if you don't like race car driving, I think it's an important movie to watch because what it does is it sets up these two archetypes.

You have Senna, Ayrton Senna, the Brazilian race car driver who drives with the love and passion of the sport. Of course he wants to win, but he's driven by passion. And then you have Alain Prost, whose nickname is The Professor, because he does everything by the numbers. And he's not driven by passion. He's driven solely for the score. He's driven solely to win. And as a result, an inconclusive, but he's been accused of...

Playing dirty, where he might not win the race, but he can win in points. So he maybe runs other drivers off the road, you know, so they can't win and get points. He doesn't care about how he looks to get the numbers. He doesn't care how he looks. He wants to win at any cost. Yeah, there's a lack of purity to it. And where Ayrton won because he had an absolute love for the sport. And you see play out that when there's controversy, all the other drivers side with Senna.

and never side with Prost. And you start to see the one who's driven by passion, even though he may beat us and we actually are competitors with him, we want him to lose when we're on the track with him. We want to beat him. The reality is the person who's driven by passion is inspiring to us. And I think that's what we're talking about here, which is to do it for the love of it. Of course you're driven to win, otherwise why would you be in a sport? I mean, there's no point in being in a game or a sport if you're not driven to win. You're not playing to lose, you're playing to win. But to drive...

and to be in the game for the love of it allows you to have joy and excitement and thrill to simply be in the game. Well, it allows you to be inspired by the process. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Otherwise, the process is nothing because if you're only inspired and driven by the outcome, it's just...

because like in the scenario with Elan and Senna, like Senna had authenticity to the love of the sport, which authenticity is the strongest energy we can put off of our bodies is the frequency of authenticity. And that resonates with people. Yeah, and it resonates with people. The question is why does he resonate deeper? I love where this is going. I need to take a quick break and then we'll get back into it.

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For decades, the Mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end, sparking a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the most powerful crime organization in American history. It sent the message to them that we can prosecute these people.

Discover how a group of young prosecutors took on the mafia, and with the help of law enforcement, brought down its most powerful figures. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcast, this is Law & Order Criminal Justice System.

Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is in

I think he was like, oh, yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast Misspelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words.

That I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Misspelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I think we sometimes in our modern society think we heroize the wrong people, right? We heroize the high performer, but we don't consider how they got there. We don't consider their

their ethics, their values. I think we're a little bit seduced by fame and fortune, that that becomes the thing we want more than anything. But isn't it better to be a good person? And I'm not saying...

Ambition is fine. It's at what cost, I guess is what I'm getting at. - How can we give a-- - Like I don't want to achieve things at any cost. Like how I get somewhere and how I do things really does matter. I think that's what values are. - Well, I mean some of what I didn't like at the end of my career that made me not want to be around is like what I had to do to progress

or move forward or do well was be a real dick and be even more selfish. Give me a specific story that helps me understand when you had to be a dick. Like you had to, you'd have to crash people on track. You'd have to really like politic and manipulate the system to get the crew chief you wanted and position yourself within the team. There was like games. You had to play games.

So you had to play games to get the equipment and get the positioning that you needed to. And then you had to go and essentially play a little unfair at times instead of just for the purity of like speed and what you're able to achieve with your car. It's like, no, no, how can I, you know, like it would be like, well, I'll just move.

move you. I will just move you out of the way. And like that just wasn't ever the way that I did things. And so it felt like to me at the end that I just wasn't resonating as much with the work that I had to do to do really well. It's like weightlifting, right? The only way you can win in weightlifting is if you take steroids. Right, exactly. And there was a great documentary called Bigger, Stronger, Faster. Mm-hmm.

And basically this amateur weightlifter and his brothers are both amateur weightlifters, one or two brothers, I can't remember. And his brother decides to take steroids and he doesn't. And he can't win because everybody's taking steroids. And so he goes down this path, which is it bad to take steroids? It's a really interesting documentary. Like it's against the rules, but is it actually bad for us? And the results might surprise you. But the point is, is that at what point do you want to win where you have to

push other cars off the road. You have to play the politics because if you don't, 100% of the time you come in last. - Well the only person that you live with your whole life is yourself. And so even the most successful people can be very miserable. And so you can think that you'll have everything you want by winning or making all the money or being the CEO or whatever the thing is, but you still have to go home to yourself every single day and wake up with yourself every single morning.

But people don't think that way. Like, I mean, like, it's become a punchline, right? It's like, well, you know, how do you sleep at night? And you have to look at yourself in the mirror in the morning. Right. It's like, I can tell you all the banker boys who destroyed the economy in 2008. They slept just fine, you know? And it's like, in the moment...

I don't think anybody thinks that way. I think when somebody's in it, when they're in the drive and they're driven by personal ambition and fame and fortune and I want to be number one and I'm going to push people aside to do it, I don't think they look at themselves in the mirror and go, oh, I need to change. I think they might not be happy. There might be sadness and stress and all those things. I think they just, what they do is I think they rationalize their stress and their depression.

I think they can rationalize it away. It was like, you know, look how much money I've got or look how much fame I've got. I'm the world champion, you know? And I think when they are the world champion and when they are wealthy and when they are the leader, those rationalizations work. But when they're out of the game, when they're no longer the CEO, when they're retired from the sport, that's when the demons come because no one cares about you anymore anymore.

You're yesterday's news. Now. Right. Now do you want to live with yourself? Right. Well, that's the tradeoff. Ride the roller coaster, man. If that's what you want to do, you'll ride, you'll be really high and then you'll be really low. And I've found that in life. There's always, if you're really, really high, there can be, you better expect that there can be a really big low for that. You can be a race car driver and go have adrenaline every single weekend and then you come down off of it and you're like, I need to be busy. I'm bored. I need something. I need stimulation. Let's jump out of a helicopter. Like,

You ride the roller coaster. You steal from someone and you pay the penalty in some other way. Maybe it's not legally. Maybe it's not in business. Maybe it's just with your own thoughts inside of your head and the feelings that you have about the way that you do things. But I find that there's always a pretty reciprocal tradeoff with everything. It's, you know, or being famous and like, you know, there's a tradeoff to everything.

having fame and fortune and is that look people know who you are they're going to judge what you do and it's like yeah but they bought your house they bought your boat they bought your plane they bought your you know you have to understand that your popularity is also fueling a really great aspect of your life that people don't get access to you

I also think that, and I'm not sure how applicable this is, but we're talking about personalities and dynamics and the way people act and how they sleep at night and if they do. I just think that life is, we're getting into more of the nature of reality, which is something I'm super fascinated by. But everything is here to show us us. And so if we are someone that goes and sees someone that just crashes someone out,

and doesn't have a regard for the ethics or the purity of a sport, then maybe we lack ethics and purity of the sport in our own way, in our own life. And that that is going to run its course. And when you finally recognize that pattern through who you cheer for or what you've struggled with on your own, it's showing you you. And so I think what it says, that people loved Ayrton Senna so much

so much is that there's a lot of good people. That's why it resonates. That's why it made it. There's actually way more good people than bad people because it's showing them them. They resonate. They get it. They can meet them there and go, I love that. I do it for the love of it too. I think when we're young,

We're constantly trying to prove ourselves. Teddy Roosevelt said, no, there's a second Teddy Roosevelt reference now. Comparison is the thief of joy. Oh, I say that all the time. That's so true. And when we're young, it's all comparison. I meet young people who I'm like, why don't you take a gap year between high school and college? They're like, I can't. I'm like, why not? They're like, I'll fall behind. I'm like, fall behind what? What race are you in? What do you mean? I can't. I'm going to be behind. And by the way, that was me.

When I was younger, I was competitive against other people. And now I'm competitive against myself. And I'm a fierce competitor and I like picking arbitrary competitors. So like when I go for a jog, for example, I'll always pick someone who's in front of me and I'll be like, beat them. And I'll run past them and I'll pick somebody else's head. And I just pick arbitrary people because it motivates me to push myself harder. But I'm not like running past them and like,

flipping them off as I'm running by. It's part of your own personal game. It's for me. It's my little game to push myself. There are pawns in your game. But those are finite games. They're finite games. And then when I come off the trail, I'm not like, I passed eight people. That's not what happens. It's simply to make me push myself harder. It's a finite game within the infinite, to be honest, because your infinite game is to always excel. No. The infinite game is to stay in the game.

Isn't that the definition of infinite game? No, the infinite game is not necessarily to excel. The infinite game is to stay in the game, right? So the infinite game, in an infinite mindset, for example, the infinite mindset requires that if you're burning yourself out, it's better to slow down and to reconfigure and get your head in place and get your body back in the game.

I tell this story of, you know the story of the two lumberjacks? No. I love this story. So there's two lumberjacks. Every day they start chopping wood at the same time and every day they stop at the same time. And every day one of the lumberjacks disappears in the middle of the day for about an hour and every day he chops more wood than the other guy. And this goes on for months. And finally the one who works all day says, I have to ask you, every day we start at the same time. Every day we stop at the same time.

Every day you disappear for about an hour in the middle of the day. Every day I work longer and harder than you, and every day you chop more wood than me. Where do you go for that hour? And the other lumberjack looks up and goes, oh, I'll go home and sharpen my axe. In other words, for that hour, his performance dips. For that hour, when he leaves and he stops chopping, the other guy is going to be way ahead. But when he comes back, he's got a sharper axe and he makes up for it. And that's what the infinite mindset is. You allow...

for slowing, you allow for stopping, you allow for the metric to go down so that you can sharpen your ax, whether it's your mind, your body, your spirit, whatever it is, to come back stronger the next day. And I've seen this pattern repeated so many times.

Rick Elias, who's been on this podcast, runs a remarkable company called Red Ventures. Rick was, remember the US Airways flight that landed on the Hudson? - Yeah. - Rick was on that plane. Now Rick was this hard driving entrepreneur who spent, I don't know, nearly 20 years of his life building a company worth a few hundred million dollars and he thought he was the shit. He thought he was high flyer, Mr. First Class, you know who I am, you know?

And then he has this near-death experience, which he says was the greatest gift he could ever be given because there was no survivor's guilt because everybody survived. It was 90 seconds, he says, which is just long enough from the minute the engines cut out to the landing on the Hudson. Everybody survived. So you get to have the lessons of the near-death experience without all the horrors, right? Yeah. And he reconfigures his entire way he leads. He makes it not about himself anymore. He becomes infinite-minded.

It's not about winning or being the best or being first. It's about just being a better version of himself. He practices all these new things like forgiveness. And he builds, in just a few years, he builds a $6 billion company. We'll be right back.

For decades, the Mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end, sparking a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the most powerful crime organization in American history. It sent the message to them that we can prosecute these people.

Discover how a group of young prosecutors took on the mafia and with the help of law enforcement brought down its most powerful figures. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcast, this is Law & Order Criminal Justice System.

Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is in

I think he was like, oh, yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast Misspelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa, I said the words. Yeah.

That I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Misspelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Cheaters and Backstabbers. I'm Shadi Diaz. And I'm Kate Robards. And we are New York City stand-up comedians and best friends. And we love a good cheating and backstabbing story. Oops.

So this is a series where our guests reveal their most shocking cheating stories. Join us as we learn how to avoid getting our hearts broken or our backs slashed. Listen to Cheaters and Backstabbers on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Do you think there's always like a, there's an eternal infinite game going on? Well, I mean, that's ironic. Of course, is the answer. Right. The question is whether we're aware of it and playing it. I think too many of us... So...

Let's take your sport, right? Let's take driving, which is the people who go into, whether they're Olympians or race car drivers, they are fundamentally driven to win. They like winning, they want to win, they push to win, sometimes unethically, but they

they play right to the hairline of the rules. You see this, I watch Drive to Survive, I watch F1. These guys are all playing to the hairline of the rules and when one of them's clever and finds a loophole, the rest of them freak out and say you're cheating. It's only because they didn't figure out the loophole. We see that all the time. But that attitude, I think, follows them off the track.

that everything they do, they're driven to win. And you hear, like, you know, whether it's gambling or whether it's relationships, you know, like, it's always this win, win, win, win, win. And I wonder if they recognize that the infinite game of life has finite components, like when you're driving. Right, exactly. But not everything is a race.

Not everything is a race. This is the one thing that I talk when I talk to former athletes and the people out of their, like where they struggle is their self-worth comes from the easy metric, right? I won. I came in third. I'm in the game. I made the Olympics. I'm one of 20, 25 competitors in the whole sport. And if you've been racing since you're 10 years old and been playing the game and your whole self-worth comes from being in the arena and you're no longer in the arena, the question is, is how do you redefine your self-worth?

I mean, this is a very hard question. How do you define your self-worth? Maybe it's just by how happy and content you are. Like, what's the ratio there? Tell me a race that you were a part of or something you did in your racing career that if everything were like this one event, you may not have even done very well, right? But if everything was like this one day, this one race, this one event,

you'd be the happiest person alive. Yeah, it wouldn't have been when I won. So tell me a specific case. It wouldn't have been when I won. So tell me a specific case. There's a couple, but I'll say this one. My first race at Martinsville is the one that sticks out first. It was this really hard little half-mile track, and...

You know, it's known as one of the harder races of the year. And you're not relying on aerodynamics. It's like you got to get the handling right, but then you got to pass and you can't put a wheel wrong because then you go offline and you lose a lot of spots. It's just a tough race. And it's really aggressive too. There's a lot of bumping and banging. And my boss at the time, Tony Stewart, was like,

Dang it, I can't believe I forgot to put Martinsville on your schedule last year for the 10 hardest cup races I needed to give you to prepare for the next year when you're doing it full time. And so we get to Martinsville and I'm not super fast. And then I spin at the beginning trying to pass someone and I go to the back and I'm a lap down and I manage to get my lap back. It's 500 laps around Martinsville. And I managed to pass Tony and I beat Tony and I finished like 11th or something like that.

Like I had a great race and I would say that that one sticks out because I earned it. Like I had adversity, like I wasn't good and I made progress. The delta between the start of the weekend and the very end result was so dramatic. There was so much to be said about that where when I won in Japan, I was just running along and we ran a fuel strategy and you know, I wasn't the fastest car. No, the top, the other four or five top

competitors. There was a gas. Yeah, there was six or seven of those guys that, you know, they were running to hope that there was a yellow, but they all had to pit. And I saved fuel from the beginning of that run. And I mean, I beat like Elio Castroneves and I beat some other cars that were doing the same thing. But I didn't beat everybody that way. So I wouldn't say that that was my shining day of like, like, I just did what I was told. I saved fuel and,

You know, I was fast enough to be ahead of other cars that were running the strategy, but I wasn't the fastest car. You know, when I say like the result is sometimes evidence of the effort, it's like the 11th, like if you'd have seen where I started, right? So it's kind of like you have to know the start and the end to generate that delta. Tell me an early specific happy childhood memory and something I can relive with you.

- You know, I remember going up to northern Minnesota to where my mom grew up and it was like right on the border of Canada, Minnesota and Canada. And all of the grandkids, there was tons of grandkids, there was like 15 grandkids. We went up to Lake of the Woods and we went fishing. First time I ever went fishing and I was probably 10ish, I maybe had just started racing age.

And I caught like five fish the first day that I went fishing and it was the best. And the next day I caught nothing. And I was like, wow, I really had an epic day. But I remember I held the fish like with a screwdriver like through its mouth. And I was like, ew. And there's a picture of me too when I was like a kid with my glasses on. And I was like holding the fish like, ew. And my sister's like, ha, ha, ha, smiling. And I just thought it was. So of all of the wonderful things you did as a kid, what is it about that memory that stands out?

It was simple. It was rewarding as well as fun and free. I think what's also interesting about that story with the Martinsville story is the Delta.

You said it's the delta. You've never fished before and you caught five. - Exactly. - And it's the thrill of going from zero to five. - There you go. - And Martinsville was, it's not that you won the race, that you have more pride in coming in 11th because of where you started. - Than when I won a race. - Than when you won a race. And I think that's very interesting. I think a lot of people are driven by the traditional metric, the win, right? At any cost. You're driven by the improvement.

You're driven by the delta. And I find that wonderful. The joy is in the journey. The joy is in the journey. It really is. And what I like about you is you're very self-aware that you know that if you were a guy, we wouldn't be talking about your racing career. I mean, you won one race in Indy and zero in NASCAR. But the level of improvement and where you pushed and the delta of your career is probably one of the most remarkable ones out there.

you know, going from unexpected, you shouldn't be in this race, all of the

push back to simply being in the arena. It's not that you're in the arena. Having people around you that maybe didn't believe in you. Maybe I didn't have the best equipment. Maybe I didn't have, you know, on a four-car team, the fourth best equipment and I still beat them. Yeah. Like that's a delta. I mean, and I love that. What I admire about you is when we say, what did you accomplish? Other people tell you, I won this, I got this, I hit this target. You go, no, no, I came from here and I got to there. Mm-hmm.

And the joy that you have being in the middle of the pack because you knew where you come from is a lesson I wish the rest of us would learn. Think about how much joy there would be in the world if we knew where we started and we look at where we are now. And it doesn't matter if we're on the podium. It doesn't matter if we came in first. What matters is do you know where I was? Do you know where I came from? Do you know what I had to do to get here? And that's where our self-worth comes from.

- That's why documentaries are so loved by people is because you finally get to see the whole story. Like we just see the highlight reel on ESPN or in a magazine or a newspaper or online now. We just see the highlight reel. We don't get the whole story. And I think that's also probably partly why podcasts have become so much more popular 'cause you're like, oh wow, I get the whole story now. I understand them, I can cheer for them now. And see ourself in it.

That's good. I love talking that all out. You process out loud, which I love because it means you can have like a really like fun back and forth conversation because you're vetting as you go. And you're also okay to be wrong because you're like, oh, okay, maybe this. But this stuff helps me really understand myself better. So thank you for pushing me and helping me really understand myself better because...

you never really know all the reasons psychology-wise why you do or why you like things. But when you have enough time to really think about it, because you don't think about it. You don't always spend a lot of time thinking about it, do you? You just do it. You just do the thing. I think that's true. I think many of us follow the script.

You know, you just do the thing. And I think what we're talking about is I think sometimes it's nice to slow down and take account. I just need to remember that I've grown and I've come from there to here. And by that, I mean that in all aspects of life. I'm not even thinking professionally as I say that. Like even if I look at my personal relationships, you know, like I wasn't very good at boyfriending. Like, you know, if boyfriend is a verb, like the skill of boyfriending was something, you know. Sure.

There was a lot of room for improvement. And I look now and I'm good at boyfriending. Am I the best? No. But if you look at where I came from, I'm really proud of the growth and I'm excited for more growth or being brother or being son or being friend. I want to see Delta. I want to see growth.

And there's never an end and there's never a quote unquote best. It doesn't exist. It's totally elusive. It's a moving goalpost. It's a moving goalpost. Absolutely. Or there's no goalpost, which is even more unnerving for people. Right? Because the only comparison is you. Like you don't have to be better than somebody. You have to constantly be better than you. I don't have to be the best at anything, but I want to be better than me. And there's a great joy in that. And I think more people would have more self-worth in that.

if we stopped comparing our level to other people's levels and starting comparing where we are now to where we've come from and be truly proud of that effort and that growth.

This is where you see people proud to post like a before and after, like a body picture. Yeah, yeah. Because they'd never, ever, ever, ever, ever post the before. Right. They're embarrassed. They don't even want to take the picture. Right. But they will when they have an after. When they have an after, yeah. Because they're proud. Yeah. And now apply that to beyond our bodies, but our minds. It's all the same. It's just patterns and applying in different ways. Yeah. Oh, this is great. Thanks, Danica. Thanks, Simon. So good.

If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsenic.com for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself. Take care of each other.

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