The Power Broker #9: Majora Carter
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So today we're still in part six, The Lust for Power. We're covering four chapters, 35 through 38. That's pages 807 through 894. And later in this episode, our special guest is Majora Carter. Majora is a neighborhood developer from the South Bronx. Growing up, she always viewed her neighborhood as a place where she had to leave to find success. And she's now a member of the

But as she got older, she became more involved. She began undoing some of Moses's legacy and she became a champion for bettering neighborhoods like the South Bronx so that there are places where people want to remain, even when they have been ruined by a tyrant.

Before we get started with one of my favorite chapters in one of my favorite books, so it's going to be great, we did want to talk about something that we teased last month, our very special live event with Robert Caro. Roman, me, Robert Caro, on stage, reunited for the first time at the Newark Historical Society. I'm so excited about it. It's going to be great. But...

When the tickets went on sale, they sold out almost immediately, which made us very proud, but we know was disappointing for a lot of you who did not get a chance to buy tickets. We're really sorry about that. If we could have held the event at a stadium large enough to hold you all, we would have done it. But you are not totally out of luck. You can still watch the event on your computer. Livestream tickets are still available. You can go to nyhistory.org slash programs to learn more.

So on the last episode of the 99% Invisible Breakdown of the Power Broker, we covered chapters 33 and 34, which detailed the ways in which Robert Moses spent the 1940s and 50s becoming the center of political corruption and honest graft in New York City construction world and innovation.

his lust for power that has transformed them into this kind of political machine boss that he used to despise when he was a young reformer. And then, uh, Caro does this delightful chapter on the three mayors that, that followed LaGuardia, um, which did not warrant their own chapters. Yeah.

It's hard to imagine a version of the book where Mayor Impey gets a full chapter to himself, as much as I love that section so much. So it's just a series of mayors that he dominated during this period of time. And on this episode, we'll be continuing our jaunt through part six, The Lust for Power, by looking at chapters 35 through 38.

in the print edition. That's pages 807 to 894. And chapter 35 is titled RM. And that doesn't stand for Roman Mars, unfortunately, because that would be a fantastic chapter. When you first turned the page, did you think for a second, oh, I'm in this book? Oh, yeah, I signed off on something. No, RM stands for Robert Moses and...

More importantly, R.M. is what the Moses men called Robert Moses through a lot of his life. So let's talk about this chapter because it's kind of a fun chapter in certain ways. I know this is one of your favorites, Elliot. So what do you like about it?

So this chapter, it is very fun, and the rest of the episode is going to be less fun because it's – I love this chapter partly for what it does on its own and partly how it works in Counterpoint with the chapters that come right after it. Because this chapter is entirely about Robert Moses' imperial control of the world of the Triborough and Park system, but there's a lot of also like –

I just – I was going to say like public power wealth porn where Kara was taking you through the experience of being a guest at a Robert Moses event and kind of the resources he has and the ways he uses them and just for entertaining people who he can use in some way. And I just love the feeling of –

It's ridiculous opulence, like ludicrous opulence that Caro presents this chapter. It feels like satirical. This chapter feels satirical to me to the point that it feels kind of silly. But then the chapters after it are so much more somber and so much more hard-hitting that I love the trick that Caro pulls here where you're like, I'm having fun.

Robert Moses, you know what? He could have me over to his personal open-air arena anytime. And then the next chapters are, and here's what that power was doing. It wasn't just bringing people to parties where there are martini fountains, as we'll see as we get into the chapter. But it's fun while it lasts. Yeah. And it's one of the things about the book, when a book is this long, getting a bird's-eye view of

What these two chapters juxtaposed against each other, you do get kind of lost sometimes because you're spending, you know, 30, 40, 50 pages on one thing. And it's kind of hard to know. Oh, yeah, they're setting up all this sort of like excess and opulence and how he's getting things done. And then the I mean, there's dark sides, like, really.

Even that part is dark in its way. I mean, even this part, he doesn't come off as a great guy. It's not like it's like, yeah, he'd be fun to hang out with. And also the juxtaposition of the money at his command to do things. In the next chapters, people who are in the lower, lower middle, lower classes and how –

how they barely have the money they need to pay for their rent. You know, just the juxtaposition between the two is very stark. Well, because we got out of the timeline a little bit, because we went through those three mayors, let's just sort of get our bearings here. So this chapter starts when Moses is 60 years old. It's 1948. He's kind of at the height of his power. And let's sort of describe where he is at this point. So Robert Moses at this point, he has...

Something like nine or ten public official posts. He has all this money flowing in from the bridges that he – and the tunnels now also. I think he still has the tunnel authority that he controls, the tolls that are coming in from those. So as you may remember from last time, this is when he has built this kind of personal corruption machine.

And it's starting to get really into motion at the late 40s. This is when it's really ramping up, and he can do basically what he needs to. The government is – the federal government is pouring tons of money into cities. The city government does not have the money to pay for its own things, and now Robert Moses has access to all that. And he doesn't just have –

access to money. Karroth talks at the beginning of this chapter, he describes him as having this incredible access to the ability to do work. He has a voracious appetite for power and a voracious appetite for work. He has no hobbies except for swimming, which he does at night often.

Like he, otherwise his entire life is work. Carol tells the story about, there was a play, a Broadway musical called Fiorello that was about Fiorello LaGuardia. And Moses went to go see it because he had known LaGuardia and this is in 1960. And he goes, oh yeah, that's the first Broadway show I've been to in years. Like this, he has no, he doesn't do anything for recreation. And he's still, he's still relying on his wife, Mary to do like, she arranges his haircuts. She arranges his clothes. She makes sure that the stuff in his pockets that he needs is the right stuff. And, and,

He's just focused on work all the time. If he goes on vacation, then part of that vacation is spending time with people that he needs to lobby for support for his projects. Like he's – Caro refers to it on page 808 as a feast of work, and I love that phrase because it gets across that –

He's not burdened by all this work. He loves it. He wants it. He wants to be doing this. And 10 years later, in 1958, Caro is saying that Moses at 70, he's still sitting at that feast. He can't get enough of it. He just loves working. He wants to do nothing else but work, which gives him a real leg up on most human beings who like to stop working every now and then.

That's right. And he goes through all these sort of things where he's working all the time. The secretaries work all the time. He turns his car into a working office. And I love this detail that he purposely doesn't put a phone in so that he can do more work in the car. He doesn't want to be interrupted. Yeah. If he can get away from a place where people can't reach him, it's not like, oh, I've made it to myself. It's like, good, I can get this work done finally. Yeah.

It makes a point of saying that the car is a limousine where the windows don't go all the way to the back. So he doesn't look out the window when he's being driven around. So he can just work. It's really something else. It's amazing. Caro's like 1955. He has an eye operation. The next day he's sitting in the hospital dictating letters and memos to secretaries. Another time he's got a 104 degree fever. He's in bed, but he's still taking meetings in bed. Like he's still doing work. He like...

And he's presenting this portrait of Moses who is so full of energy. He's always pacing. He's always impatient. And the image you get of him, which is kind of – no, it would be tragic if he wasn't ruining so many people's lives or sad in that way. He's someone who is very aware that the things he wants to accomplish are more than a reasonable life can contain. And so he's pushing himself and he's pushing the people around him so fast and so hard so he can get even a fraction of the things that he – his dreams into reality. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's still swimming at night. His aides start swimming with him because they're worried about him going out into the ocean by himself. But he outpaces all of the swimmers. I mean, it's pretty funny how much Caro kind of talks up all of his physical prowess and his ability to...

I mean, we're getting into Paul Bunyan territory at a certain point where it's like they swam with him and they couldn't keep up. Even when he was in his 60s, what an amazing swimmer. It's like New York tall tales. And it's really amazing. But also, so here's the thing that speaks to me particularly. At the same time, Moses is doing all this work.

he's also doing a lot of writing like he needs money because the jobs don't pay him that much and he lives a lavish lifestyle so he's writing articles for pay he writes dozens of articles for magazines and he takes the time apparently he always wanted to write kind of trash novels and so he writes a pulp romance novel called From Palms to Pines that is rejected by all publishers I'm sure it's

terrible and someone who's i think if i'm remembering correctly carol's like someone read it and was like there's more sex in it than i thought there would be but that carol makes it clear that even if it's a bad novel moses wrote an entire novel while he's also holding down eight full-time executive jobs and all these other side things that he like it's it's amazing it's it's you know where's he finding the time to do it well i mean he's finding the time to do it because he can

yell at people and tell them not to call him and work. He has his own private car and everything. But it's just amazing the amount of work he's capable of doing. But I think it's very funny. There's this alternate universe where Robert Moses sold that novel and he was like, I'm done with city building. Now I'm just, I'm like Harold Robbins. I just write kind of trashy novels. That's what I do. Yeah. But the funny thing is about all this money that he needs is that

When Carol sort of like lays out all of his privileges and the access to things that he has at his disposal, it's kind of surprising he needs money at all because he has these like restaurants that are just like staffed and ready for him to go to and get fed. He has access to a yacht. Yeah.

at all times. He has three drivers, which is like... He has three drivers and eight-hour shifts so they can always be ready at any time. He has the yacht and the captains just sit there by the phone every day just in case he wants to go out on it. Then the restaurants, so these are amazing. So at three different offices, he has full dining rooms with cooking and serving staffs. And again, they're just there. They're just on call every day in case he decides he wants to host a lunch in that office. And as...

Carol keeps saying this is the kind of thing a king has. A king has these kinds of people waiting on him all the time. And there's a couple – in this section, I'd love to read just a few of these short sections because I love the way Carol just kind of – it's almost like breathless. It feels like the way he writes some of these descriptions as if like, can you believe this? This is amazing, but also this is ridiculous. Can you believe this stuff? Yeah.

And so he says – he talks about bringing you into the experience of being with Robert Moses and being entertained this way. And I have to assume it is because he probably experienced a fair amount of this. I think that in the notes, I think he talks about a day when he was given kind of the Robert Moses treatment before RM cut the –

Cut him out when he's still interviewing with him. It says, waiting to lunch with Robert Moses, a guest would be ushered at Randall's Island into an anteroom lined with pictures of Robert Moses' bridges, Robert Moses' parks, Robert Moses' parkways, of Robert Moses posing with Hoover, of Robert Moses posing with Roosevelt, of Robert Moses posing with Truman, with Eisenhower, and later with Kennedy and Johnson and Pope John.

At Belmont Lake, into an ante room with walls covered literally from wall to ceiling with Robert Moses' plaques and trophies. There might be a gleaming white scale model or two of past or future achievements lying carelessly about, dot, dot, dot. Finally, R.M. himself would appear at the head of a procession of eight or ten aides. For if emperors had courts, so of course did he. If by chance he was called out of the room to take a telephone call, when he returned, his aides would jump to their feet and would not sit down until he sat down, dot, dot, dot.

The food at lunches at Randall's Island, not special luncheons, just the typical lunch served by white-coated waiters to groups ranging in size from half a dozen to half a hundred, perhaps 150 times a year, was spoken of by guests in tones of awe. And it's – I just love the –

You can so luxuriate in that. But he's also getting across – it's not just that Moses likes this stuff for luxury's sake, although I'm sure he does a certain amount. It is a way of expressing power. When you're being feted by Robert Moses, you are being overwhelmed by the power of this guy and what he can do. And you go to lunch with him. He will talk the entire time. He does not let you do any talking. Caro says that there's a reporter who went to one of these lunches and secretly timed it, like checking his watch. And he goes – he came back and said, well –

Moses talked for an hour and 20 minutes straight without interruption. And it is all – all of this is a way of softening you up so that you're ready for the hard sell that he's going to make on you. Yeah. And he's surrounded by all these people so that if you have any type of disagreement with him or come to like – just like bring up any point, he'll go –

I don't know. That sounds dumb to me. What do you think, Sam? What do you think, Jimmy? What do you think this? And they all go, I think he's just, I think you're right, sir. And then he's like, yep. Uh-huh. That's what I thought. And that's it. It's amazing how openly straightforward it is. But it's like, yeah, all my guys say I'm right. So are you going to argue with a whole room full of people? And those guys, they are, I mean, I should say they are guys for the most part. They're Moses men, they call themselves. They also...

feel that power themselves. And Kara talks about – this is another passage I love where he talks about them getting the news as Robert Moses is being driven to work. As he passes each kind of toll booth or stopping point – he doesn't stop. He goes straight through. But as he passes what would be stopping points for normal people –

The people at those points are calling the office to say RM is five minutes away. RM is three minutes away. It says they would hurriedly recheck one last time to make sure that any map or blueprint for which he might ask was ready for his perusal. Scurrying back and forth, secretaries would put a dozen freshly sharpened pencils in the pencil holder on his desk.

Straighten the pile of letters there. Dust his office one last time. Worst of all, says one, was when he headed first from his Babylon home to Belmont Lake, for that trip took only about five minutes. Everyone would start shouting, the boss is coming, the boss is coming. He's on his way over from Thompson Avenue. And everyone would start rushing around in little circles as if they were crazy. And it's just...

The idea that they are keeping tabs on how many minutes they have before he gets to the office so they can get things just right. Because he also, part of this workaholism and this energy is he also has a temper and he's known to slam his hand down on his desk or punch the wall or yell at people. It's a, it's all power. It's all ways of imposing your will on other people. Yeah, yeah. And, you know,

You know, it's not just Randall's Island where he hosts these folks. The real place to host people to show the glory of Robert Moses is Jones Beach, this like great triumph early on and is still kept up as a kind of a temple to Robert Moses of this period. Jones Beach is still an amazing, you know, it's the greatest bathing beach in the world, probably, you know, according to Moses. And he has...

All these things there so that he can take his guests and they can go yachting. They can go horseback riding. They can go swimming. There's fancy food. He has – the restaurants there pay ludicrously low rents to the department. And in exchange, they are just always available to host Robert Moses' guests regularly.

for free, I assume. And similarly, he runs the Jones Beach Marine Stadium that way, which is, it's an 8,200-seat theater that is essentially his private theater. There's this stage on a man-made island that's separated from the front seats by a moat, and the front seats are all luxury boxes that are reserved for his, either for banks and corporations or for his personal guests, not the public. And he's got

And the center box, the people who work there are nicknamed at the royal box, and that's reserved for Moses and his personal guests. And whenever he's there, the band leader, Guy Lombardo, very well-known band leader of the time – he's mentioned in the lyrics to Guys and Dolls – he gets a personal introduction from the stage from Guy Lombardo. And Carol makes a point of saying Moses acts as if, what? Oh, I don't need it. I don't need it. He kind of acts like he's ignoring it. Oh, it's not special.

But he kind of always shows up just at the right time to get this introduction, or he'll show up just to get the introduction and then leave the show. And Moses decides what's going to be on in the stadium, what shows are going to be there. Ticket sales, they're never very good. The theater is rarely more than half full. But-

But it doesn't really matter because Moses is not really putting up a public theater. He's putting up a place for himself to impress his guests. And another part of that is showing them, I have Guy Lombardo on my personal call whenever, one of America's biggest band leaders. And in exchange, all I have to do is let Guy Lombardo and his brother take all the money from the theater. Yeah.

For themselves. And they – it's like the state built this theater for $4.2 million, and the state never sees that money back. It's all going to Guy Lombardo. And it's just another example of Moses saying, I'm going to use the public money to build something.

And I'm going to use it for my private needs of exposing power. And the way that I get that is by letting someone else make money out of it. You know, the state pays the money. You take the money. I don't want that. But I'm going to need you whenever I need a favor to impress somebody else. Yeah. And the thing is, again, he's figured out something really critical, which is like you don't need to take money from people if you use their money to give you everything you want anyway. Yeah.

Because normally if you want your own outdoor amphitheater on a beach, you have to pay $4 million to build that thing. But instead, you have other people build it. You don't claim any part of it, but you use it as your own. That's pretty much just taking it for yourself. Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good point. It's like, well, the house department is going to build this mansion for me. I'm going to live in it. But you know what? It's just part of my public use. Yeah. If your house is paid for, your cars are paid for, your food is paid for, you have theaters and all this stuff happening for you. Like, what do you need money for? And yet you're still constantly low on money and running into debt, which is astounding. Yeah.

And Caro, so he, he takes, this is a section that's well worth reading for anybody where he takes you through kind of like what it's like to be the guest of Moses. There's this fleet of limos. There's this, the concierge service that's provided to you. Would your children like to ride in a little boat with Guy Lombardo as he goes to the stage? They can do that. You know, would you like another martini? Of course, sir. And you don't get to see too much of Moses during these visits because he's working.

And he has a cubicle built in the stadium, this little office goal that he can sit in so he can work, go up for his introduction from Guy Lombardo that he goes, oh, I don't need it, I don't need it, and then leave and go back to work. And he'll see you for a couple minutes. In those couple minutes, he'll just totally charm you. He'll be telling you anecdotes about all the amazing things he's done in his career, kind of press you a little bit on the thing that he wants you to do, and then –

It's over, and the limousines take you back home again. And it's like Jones Beach, it's almost like a corporate version of what Disneyland looks like in commercials is what it sounds like. For mid-century American professionals, it's like,

This is their kind of like magical day and in a in a kingdom run by, you know, this magical, powerful man, you know. That's right. And then he kind of does many versions of this every time there is an opening of a public work somewhere. Like he just lavishes everyone with, you know, food and champagne and, you know, waiters addressed to the nines and everything like this. Like he really does. He baffles.

becomes a kind of his own kind of PR machine in a certain way through this like whining and dining.

I mean, if you want to put a good spin on it, you could say, hey, he's always up for a party and, you know, any excuse for a party and he's ready to have fun. But it is always for a purpose. You know, it is to get people on his side. It's not just because he loves a good hang, you know. But you're right, like in 1953, they're opening some new toll booths on the Northern State Parkway. And he's like, yeah, we need a party, 40-foot long buffet table, bring in the waiters. We need champagne to celebrate these new toll booths. And if a big project opened,

then it was, it was just done in an amazing style. And he is so particular about the details of what he does that he is overseeing all this. It's not like he tells his people throw a party. Okay, great. We did it. He is very particular about his style and what he wants to do. And he, uh, Carol quotes from a memo that I love so much where, so Arnold Schleifer, who had,

was running Tavern on the Green, you know, where he had gotten a sweetheart deal from Moses that he, you know, he paid very little rent to run this restaurant in Central Park. He caters one of these and I guess he tries to make it too fancy or too nouveau riche, I'm not sure. And Moses writes this thing, he goes, last night's Schleifer version of Belshazzar's Feast was contrary to all instructions. The catering crew was all right. The hat chicks were bells amaze. Even the fact that he mentions the looks of the hat chicks is ridiculous. But

And the barkeepers upheld the finest traditions of the craft, but the hors d'oeuvres were disgusting. Tray after tray of indigestible insides, cow's eyes on mushrooms, squid in its own ink, pastry costume jewelry, mounted dog food, mayonnaise, rococo, and gaudy gook. Hit Schleifer over the head for me. We are not celebrating a gangster wedding. And it's just...

I love that he is so everything has to be perfect for him. You know, the hors d'oeuvres have to be the right kind of hors d'oeuvres. And at the same time, he is running so much of the so much of the construction in the city, but he's still got time to get mad about these hors d'oeuvres. Yeah, I think it's hilarious. Like, especially the kind of like

I mean, everything about him is tinged with a kind of xenophobia. You know what I mean? Yeah. He's basically saying, I want normal food. You know, normal food that white people eat? You know, normal food. You know what I mean? Where are the deviled eggs, Schleifer? What's going on here? Later in that memo, he goes, we want a few simple appetizing things, not a pastry competition to be judged by pretzel varnisher's union number three. I mean, that makes me think his book was pretty good, actually. Yeah.

That's furniture. You need number three. That's some good detail. I mean, there's something similar to there's certain people who are bad people and are very mean. But in that meanness, they can say very funny things. I see what you're talking about here. Yeah. And so once again, this is not something he does just to feel like a big man or just because he enjoys it. This is a way also of

rewarding people who have done things that he likes. He invites them to these parties, punishing someone who did something that he doesn't like by denying them an invitation. It's all tools of power. If you're a reporter, he will give you special treatment until you write a negative article about him and then you're cut off and you don't get it. And it's a tool for persuading people. And Carol talks about how it is more difficult to challenge someone, to challenge their facts, to challenge their argument when you are having cocktails in their territory and when they're surrounded by people who agree with them.

It's very hard to disagree and challenge someone who is serving you a delicious lunch after bringing you over in a limousine. And when you know that if you disagree with him, he's not going to be respectable. He's not going to take it. He's going to get very mad. And if he wants you to sign a document in that setting and it's all ready for you and he hands it to you at lunch, it's very hard to say no. How do you find a polite way to say no?

He has kind of weaponized mid-century etiquette to and people's natural want to be liked by the other person or at least be approved of by another person in a way that is really kind of very calculating, very cold and calculating. Yeah, yeah. And so presenting all this sort of fun excess, I mean, I guess it's fun excess. You can definitely find some nefarious, you know,

Yeah.

And sort of starts to go to set us up for the next chapter. But like he's really just talking about how, you know, the 20th century in New York City is just the age of Moses, you know? Yeah. He starts kind of saying you basically can't compare him with other people.

who have done these things. You have to say, oh, the age of Moses is like the age of railroads. Other people may have invented things or created things or built things. This guy is shaping a city, and he's doing it over the course of 44 years. He's in some form of high office, high appointed office from 1924 to 1968. And it's just this enormous territory that he has so much control over. And

Caro is quoting Moses at one point predicting that his work's going to stand through the year 1999 because it was a far-off year at the time when it was written. And Caro is like, of course it will. He goes, why won't it last 2,000 years? The works of ancient Rome, they lasted for millennia. There's no reason to say that Moses' work won't. And the funny thing there is that Caro, two of his examples that he gives are Shea Stadium and the New York Coliseum because they were so patterned on the Roman Coliseum. But then those are both gone. They did last until 1999, though.

That's true. They were – I think – yeah, that's true. I'll give you that. I'll give you that. And Caro was like, unless there's an atomic attack on New York or a massive natural catastrophe, New York will remain the city that Moses built and shaped far more than any other single person, possibly to the end of human civilization, which is really astounding. And –

he follows that up with, um, a kind of, it would, that this has been a Testament to Moses's influence to his power. And he follows that up with a Testament to Moses's kind of inability to change. And the, the flip side of that power, which is someone who refuses to listen to others and is even blind and deaf to their existence or needs. And he says, there's a, there's a deliberate blindness, a deliberate deafness to reason, to argument, to new ideas. And Moses, he,

And we've seen it many times, and Kara talks about it again. He doesn't believe ordinary rules apply to him. There are little things. When he goes to the board of estimate to speak at a public meeting, every speaker is supposed to say their name and address just kind of to establish who they are and why they have a right to be there. And he refuses to do it, and nobody makes him. And when people in the crowd start going, make him say his name, make him say his name, the mayor is like, everybody knows who he is. He's Robert Moses. Anyway, talk, talk.

And when he needs beach grass to hold the sand around Idlewild Airport in place, he just sends his guys to steal it from private homes. And there's a moment where

W. Kingsland Macy, who you may remember many episodes back was Moses' enemy in the 20s and then became an ally of his. He's like, why are Parks employees starting to take the grass away from my house and other people's houses? And they don't stop doing it until 13 Parks employees are arrested by the police. Like it's just Moses does not believe the rules apply to him because he thinks of himself at such a high level, that he is a figure of such enormous history and importance. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a...

mention that Keros is that, that he begins to think of himself as, um, Abraham Lincoln. Um, you've read a lot of books on Abraham Lincoln. Do you compare Robert Moses to Abraham Lincoln very often? I will say, I mean, the answer, the short answer is no. Long answer is in Moses defense, Abraham Lincoln moved much less earth, uh, than Robert Moses, uh, unless it was earth being blasted by, you know, cannon shot, the grape shot and things like that. And, and, uh, artillery, but, uh,

But I would say no. There's a grandiosity to that and a sense that their goals were different, I think, and the impact of one over time were more positive than the other. But it really speaks to it that he is not just associating himself with a great, powerful person from history, but from a revered, almost sacred person from American history. Like he's basically America's saint. We have like a few of them.

And Abraham Lincoln is one of them. And he puts himself in that territory. But I would say like the strength of Abraham Lincoln is that he changed over time. Yes, very much so. And Robert Moses has this inability to take in new information and change.

Not to get too much into Lincoln because I could talk about him for hours. We'll do a Lincoln podcast eventually I guess. But it's that – yeah, the thing that – one of the many things that made him the great man that he was was that he was constantly –

questioning, do I really know the things that I know? Do I really understand the things that I understand? And moving and changing with time and with thought and with reason and with changing events around him so that he can adjust himself to what, you know, people talk about, you know, rightfully, because it's true, that Lincoln for a while believed that

colonization of Africa was the only way to deal with the race problem in America, that black people and white people can't live in the same country. They have to go somewhere else and have their own country. But by the end of his life,

He does not seem to have believed that. It seems to be a different thing. His exposure to new realities, his exposure to new ideas changed the way he thought, and the strength of him is in allowing himself that exposure even while in a position of power, whereas Moses is deliberately going out of his way not to expose himself to new ideas, new realities, changing ways, changing times because –

He doesn't care. He doesn't want to. He doesn't care. He doesn't think it's worthwhile. Yeah. He's really locked into what, you know, kind of like he, I keep on saying this sort of word firmware, like he's kind of locked into this, what was written down in his brain in the 1920s because so much of what he did.

Yeah.

And he just did not seem to notice or care that that was the case. That is a remarkable thing for someone who maybe does things I don't agree with. But he definitely thought about the city a lot. But he just ignored this huge change of piece of information. It's kind of stunning to me.

It's amazing. It's almost as if, Roman, you and I were like, we still thought about telephones as a thing that plugs into a wall. It's only connected to a building and you can't listen to music on it and you can't look up information like a computer. Like it's such a massive kind of

misunderstanding of the way a thing is used, the way that the other people think of the thing at that point. Maybe I'm exaggerating a little bit. I don't know. But Robert Caro, he talks about Moses in the way you would talk about an artist, a genius artist whose initial work is stunning, is new and innovative and exciting, but who, because of the reputation of that work, they can get away with this arrogance that they use to distance themselves from the world, and so their later work becomes...

stale. It doesn't work the same way that a genius, even if you're a genius, you still need to be rooted in some understanding of reality. And once you remove yourself from reality, your work becomes at best, if you're an artist, just unpopular. And at worst, if you are building massive roads through cities, it becomes catastrophic for the people who are living there. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's just really, he just sort of puts this bubble around him. This is the other part of that

Yeah. And because he's in that bubble, he never has to think about things. He doesn't reflect. And that's, Caro, I think he's hit this before, the idea that Moses is working too fast.

He's not taking time. And Caro, of course, is not an author who believes in working fast. He doesn't like to do things too quickly. And he says there was a time when Moses –

Had to ride a train from work to his home and would just stare out the window and see the world outside that window and think about it. And there was a time when he would spend days if not weeks if not months tromping around in nature experiencing what Long Island is actually like and thinking about the land there and how it could be used.

And now he doesn't do those things. And Caro kind of implicitly approves of this earlier Moses because his methods are so much more like Caro's methods. They're methodical and detail-oriented. They're thorough. They take time. And he disapproves of the later Moses who's very un-Caro-like, who is just like, got to do it. Get it done. Okay, put it in. Who cares? Move that over there. Yes, this is what we're doing. Don't listen to him. And it's a wonderful thing in a biography, I think, when –

You see the writer expressing their philosophy through what they're doing in a way that is not just judgy, not just good or this is good and this is bad, but where you kind of – you get the feeling that a person is writing this who has beliefs about how work should be done. And they're expressing that not through just telling us but through the way they're kind of talking about this other person. It's exciting to me to read a biography where it feels like –

The author has a point of view about different things about it other than, was this a good guy or is this a bad guy? Yeah. And at this point in Moses' life, this sort of deafness to new ideas is not metaphorical anymore. He actually is literally going deaf, which is another thing a biographer can't resist. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's such a – the subtext becomes instant text. But it's like, this is reality doing it. I don't have to look. Yeah.

The same way he was like, hey, he tried to resign from that swim team from Yale and he resigned as a threat for this thing. This is gold. This is a bit, you know. Exactly. This is wonderful. So he has hearing. He's very sensitive to these things because a lot of his like – his way of being is –

You know, his bearing depends on a kind of physical dominance. And there's so much in this book that I feel like Caro is only scratching the surface of because I don't think he wants – he's a psychologist sometimes, not too much. Robert Moses is clearly afraid of dying, clearly knows that he will die someday, is afraid of being forgotten, is afraid of being someone who hasn't made a mark on the world. And so he's – and wants to stay young. He wants to be young and vigorous and vital. And so he's always swimming and he's got to keep making things. He's got to show that he's powerful and –

Once you stop hearing, like you're old, like you feel old. People think of you as old. You know, he can't have anyone think of him as the old man. And we'll see later on when his when he is no longer in power that one of the big blows against him is that like now he's the old man. Like, who cares? He's the old guy from yesterday. And so he's doing whatever he can to try to not let people know that he's deaf. And they go to like the degree that he goes to not wear a hearing aid seems ridiculous.

Really ridiculous. That he's got this system of amplifiers on microphones installed in his office so that there's a hidden microphone in his desk. So when someone's talking to him at his desk, their words are being screamed at him, I guess, from a hidden speaker behind him so that it looks like he's listening to them and can hear what they're saying. But even that doesn't work before too long. And you're just like,

Mr. Moses, like RM, just if you wear a hearing aid, people will see it, but you'll be able to hear what people are saying, you know, but he's so, there's a vanity to him, you know, and not wanting to be old that is causing him trouble. Yeah. But, Kara was very quick to point out that this sort of

His deafness is much more, the metaphorical deafness is much more important than his literal deafness. Like he cannot update to the world that it is like, you know, he mentions that, you know, he thinks of golf as just being only for rich people in the 1920s. Maybe it was in the 50s, maybe less so. It's a little bit more.

available to the proletariat. If he had watched any episode of The Honeymooners, he'd see that the characters on that play golf. One of them works in the sewers and the other's a bus driver. We're no longer in the Legend of Bagger Vance type territory where golf is just for the rich. And he doesn't notice the change in public transportation and cars. He really is just

just been on autopilot, but has so much power that it can be quite devastating. And he wields that power like a meat axe. So that brings us to the next chapter, which we'll get to after the break.

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Now on to chapter 36, the meat axe, which is quite a name. So I think it's going to be positive. I think that it's going to be a positive chapter. The meat axe. It's such a, I mean, and he's taking, this is something it's, you will see at the end of the chapter. This is from a quote from Moses, this phrase, the meat axe, but it's such a horrifying sounding thing. And it's like a cleaver, right? But it sounds like to say like a meat cleaver, a butcher knife feels so much less

than the meat axe. Like, you shouldn't be hitting a meat with an axe. That's not what that should be. It's so frightening. It is. So going into this chapter, Roman, you were like, oh, the meat axe, this is going to be more about the cooking at these restaurants. No, sir, it's not. So...

At the beginning of the chapter, there's something Caro's doing here that it felt a little interesting to me that he's doing it now. We're 837 pages into the book, and only now is Caro kind of comparing Moses' roads to the great roads of history, which, as we said in the last chapter, he's talking about all this dirt was moved. He's compared to the pharaohs before, and only now is he talking about roads, historical roads. And the reason is this chapter is kind of the first of like a trilogy of chapters that form a sort of sub-book.

within this book that all kind of go together as one – maybe it's one episode of the Power Broker TV show. And to do that, he wants to –

Give you a set – he's taking that idea of Moses as this world historical urban figure and transitioning it to a much smaller human level. And so he starts talking about how Moses' roads compare to the Royal Road of Persia, which is 1,500 miles, or the Silk Road, or the ancient Roman highways. And he says the people building these roads thousands of years ago, they had to deal with bad terrain, bad weather, etc.

I don't think he mentions it, but primitive technology. But they did not face the major complication that Robert Moses faced in New York. And he says it this way. They did not have to evict from their homes tens of thousands of protesting voters, demolish those homes, tunnel under or cut across subways and elevated railroads, sewers and water mains and gas mains and telephone and electric conduits and cables, all of which, providing a city with essential services, had to be kept in operation during construction.

They did not have to solve these problems in space almost unbearably constricted because to obtain a single extra foot of width would require additional thousands of evictions. So he's saying this is the difference with a Moses Road is it is being carved through a living city. And the consequence of that is what we're going to be looking at in a small-scale example in these next couple of chapters. And he points out how the roads built in ancient cities, they were much smaller and mostly unobstructed.

They weren't meant for cars. They're meant for people. They're meant for horses, goats probably too, probably goats and probably cows too. But these are highways. These are built for cars and trucks. The people building the Silk Road, the Roman roads, they didn't have to deal with that stuff. And so now in 1945, Moses is planning to build –

These enormous superhighways straight through the heart of the most densely populated city in the United States. He's going to build more superhighway miles in this one city than up to that point had ever been built in all the cities of the world in human history. This new, like, massive form of road for motorized, intense vehicles. And he's going to do it

through New York City, a city that never sleeps. You can't even do it while people are sleeping and they don't notice because it never sleeps. And as much as that passage talks about the cables and the wires and the tunnels and the stuff, the real problem here is that people live on this land. The final word is evictions. And that's pretty much what the next couple chapters is about, is about the number of evictions required to do the work that Moses feels is necessary.

And we should mention, of course, that the story of America is the story of building things on lands where people have to be evicted because there were already people living on it. But he's going to start by talking about – there's the seven-mile cross Bronx Expressway, which we've mentioned on the show before. And it is – if you've never driven on it, it's essentially a trench gouged through the Bronx –

When you're driving through it, you look up and you see there's apartment buildings on either side. You're right through the middle of the city, and it's going to be disruptive. They're going to destroy hundreds of buildings, half of them apartment buildings, but they're going to have to –

Also, as I said, gouge this trench through the city, this enormous trench, without disturbing all the things that keep the city moving. They're going to have to cross the Grand Concourse, which is the major thoroughfare of the borough. And you can't shut the road down for the years it's going to take to build this thing. They're going to have to dig under it. There's only one problem with digging under the streets of New York. That's where the subway lives. Did you forget there's a train underneath there? So they have to go under the subway, which means blasting through the rock underground.

That is so – the reason New York can exist is because it's on this incredibly hard rock foundation, and they're going to have to blast through that. And it's – a lot of this chapter is about the technical difficulty of building this road. And then on top of that, Carol's going to layer this even more important layer of the people on top of that road. And while they're doing it, there's no –

They're going to have to like be blasting through rock and digging a trench underneath train tracks that they need to keep up and not shake too much. And they're also building through areas where Moses is already building other roads at the same time. Like Carol makes this whole thing sound impossible. It's like an impossible feat of engineering. Yeah. This is one of those sections where, you know, what Carol covers in this,

a couple of paragraphs represents an enormous amount of research. It is just mind boggling having to like often tell stories in this vein. The fact that he just sort of dashes off like the, you know, the type of rock and the distance and the time and the grading and like all the different alternates and everything about it is just like a stunning amount of work. Like when I read this, just,

you know, having covered this type of stuff for now a decade and a half. As an old infrastructure reporter hand. Yeah. Like seven years doesn't seem like enough time to write this book to tell you the truth. Like that, that in and of itself would have taken weeks or months of, of just like getting the details right. It kind of blows my mind. And then to have to synthesize it into a very short amount of space because for all that work,

The reader is not going to want to read a whole chapter about the type of rock that they've got to do. You're right. It's an enormous amount of – I hadn't even thought about that. Because so much of the research in my mind about this book is –

him interviewing people and him going through documents. And yet there's so much just knowledge that he needs about how the city operates, even without Moses and things like that. But they've got to do all this crazy stuff. They've got to jack up the rapid transit train line like three-tenths of an inch at a time because the trains are still running on the line as they're jacking it up. And they have to – he talks about how the job is so difficult.

that they have to move a river 500 feet. And that's one of the things nobody bothers talking about afterwards because it's one of the smaller things they had to do. They're building these enormous interchanges for connecting the expressways. There's barely enough room for the road, let alone the machines and the workers that have to build it. They've got to design new equipment. They have to use handmade steel reinforcements because the steel has to be shaped so precisely. And this is just one of 13 expressways that Moses is building throughout the city. This is

Seven miles out of 130 miles of Moses City Expressway. And the other expressways are not easier. Like the Van Wick Expressway, they have to hold up the Long Island Railroad's 13-track switching yard up in the air. Carol says it's the busiest stretch of railroad in the world. They have to hold it in the air for seven months, steady.

So the trains can run through it while they're building a road underneath it. It's phenomenal. And he says the roads cost at least $10 million per mile to build, and this is in the 40s and 50s. And he says the total cost to all the roads Moses built in the city after World War II is over $2 billion. It's astonishing, just the resources going into this because the thing they're doing is bonkers. Yeah.

It's amazing. I have this one little piece of detail. This is not in the text at all. This is just something that happened to me when I was in Milan. Must be nice. All right. Okay, sure. They have all these beautiful things in Milan and the Duomo in Milan and the sort of Piazza Duomo is there. And it's gorgeous and it's this sort of Gothic cathedral there. And it had been there obviously a long time and they started to build the subway underneath it.

And so my favorite detail and amongst all this like amazing filigree and amazing, you know, statuary. It's a very pointy building. I'm looking at it now. It's very pointy. It's super pointy. It has lots of details in it, but it has these things up called little noses and they're these little bulbous things. And they were put on the columns and they were like a little stone ball, like a little nose that sticks out. And it had a piece of glass inside. Think of it like a laboratory slide, you know, that a microscope slide.

And they put it in there because if they found that the subway tunneling broke the glass inside the slide, they would stop and reinforce everything. And so it was like a little check against destroying these like amazing old artifacts. And that's what I think of when I think about them trying to build all this stuff underneath all this other stuff that's already built, you know.

Anyway, that's a little detail of the world. It's a little 99% invisible detail. Now I can write off my trip to Italy. When I go someday, I'm going to be looking for those. And if I don't see them, I'll be like texting you. I'll be like, Roman, where did I find them? But they're called the little noses. And they're to sniff out whether there was too much seismic activity because of digging underneath these sort of national treasures.

That's amazing. I want to believe that Moses was putting that kind of care into the things above him, but I have trouble believing it. I have trouble imagining it. It's amazing.

Caro, he loves to talk about – I think he really enjoys talking about the scale of all these things. The one thing I want to mention is how he talks about how the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, it's the longest suspension bridge in the world at the time. He goes, it's towers so far apart that in designing them, allowance had to be made for the curvature of the earth. He's just like, this is big. This is big. Big stuff. Big stuff. And –

He's got the people to do it. Moses' engineers, they're up to the task. His staff is all about getting through red tape. The office is working nonstop. When they need permissions for things, they will bother any city official. They'll call them at midnight. They will show up at a Broadway show that someone is attending and make them sign it in the dark at their seat. They get all this money. They put through this $500 million bond issue, and that's still not enough money.

They've got to wait for the 1956 Federal and Interstate Highway Act, and then Moses has to lobby them to put in a provision allowing toll roads to be eligible so he can get some of that money. And Caro says – I love this line. He goes, there were other minor but irritating inconveniences, wars for example. The Korean conflict was a source of real irritation, and it's like –

All Moses cares about is his stuff. So they're like, well, we need this steel for the war effort to make sure that communism doesn't overrun South Korea. And he's like, I don't care. And he's lobbying the federal government. They let him use 10% of the entire civilian supply of steel for the country is just for his stuff. And he's like, that's not enough. And he starts attacking them in the media till they give him more. It's really amazing. And he's doing a similar thing of

making deals with different power areas in the city to get land and things. I'll trade the Catholic Church a little bit of land here so they can have some land there. I'll do that with Con Ed. And he makes the city feel like it's a giant Rubik's Cube that he can just manipulate and change in different ways. He's moving buildings everywhere just because he can. And he seems to have a real joy of the power of being able to manipulate these enormous physical masses the way that he wants them to be manipulated. Yeah.

And because he does it so often, he so revels in his ability to sort of come up with a solution of like turning a church 90 degrees so it fits on a lot or whatever. But also because he does it so much, when he really bungles it, he kind of doesn't care. He just kind of laughs it off and just like, oh, that was a real boner. I didn't create that one right. But he doesn't care because he does it so much. You just get used to that type of failure. And for him, it matters nothing for his overall goal.

He really treats the city, the real city people live in, as if it is a model that he is able to move around and change things like that. It's really – it's amazing. I mean, and who wouldn't want that power? I mean, that's literally – it's the fantasy of children everywhere is to have a play city that you can move around and control the people of. So –

Really, I guess you could say Moses is just young at heart. Anyway, the biggest problem he has though, and this is where we're going to go from kind of the awe of what Moses can do and being like, eh, he's kind of a stinker, but look at what he's accomplishing, to the real problem at heart of it, which is his real problem isn't the physical difficulties. It's bureaucracy and it's politics. And Carol says these great roads that I mentioned earlier, the Roman roads, the Persian roads, the Silk Roads, the Autobahn in Germany –

Those were not built by democracies. Those were built by kings. Those were built by furores. A totalitarian government can say all of our money is going to a big road that's going to go through your house, and you have to deal with it. But in a democratic society, people need to agree that a work of this impact is worth the expense, is worth the impact. And some people might see a need for this road, but a lot of people might not, and nobody I think is ever like, I believe in this road so much that I don't want a house anymore. I don't want to live here. I will give up my house for this.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this is his big impediment is democracy. And he again, we have to get to this point. He has never been elected at all. He is not really that big of a friend to democracy. But like he had to solve the problem of, you know, the democratic process slowing him down. And basically he says that Moses solved it by ignoring democracy. Yeah. It's not that he never takes democracy.

Yeah.

Driving somewhere – or not driving, being driven somewhere and stumbling on an anti-Moses demonstration and just sitting there laughing and laughing and watching the whole thing and laughing at it. And I have to assume it is the laughter of someone who knows these people are mad at me and they can't do a thing about it. It does not matter. And Carroll quotes Moses saying that to build a metropolis, quote, you have to hack your way with a meat ax.

And so Caro says the meat axe metaphor, quote, expressed his philosophy, but it was not philosophy but feelings that dictated Moses' actions. He didn't just feel that he had to swing a meat axe. He loved to swing it. Wow. There you go.

And that's the chapter Meat Axe. In the end, they deliver what the Meat Axe is all about. He likes wielding it. Which brings us to probably the most consequential chapter, I think, in the whole book. It's called One Mile. We will cover it after this. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

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Okay, up next is chapter 37. It's called One Mile. It is probably the most important chapter of the book. Like, I think it kind of, you know, I don't know. I don't know how to quantify that sort of stuff, but it's like, it's the culmination of everything and kind of, if I were to sort of boil down to what

Robert Caro wanted to do with this whole indictment of Robert Moses. I think this is the chapter that explains most of his motivation. Yes, I agree. I think this chapter really feels like for Caro, it is the heart of the book. I think the chapter that's closest to his heart when he talks about writing the book.

this is the chapter that he talks about the most, the one he wants to talk about the most. And I agree with you. If you were like, I can't read this whole book, give me one chapter to read it so I get the gist of it. This chapter in many ways kind of says the things that Carol wants to say with the book in –

Yeah.

This is the story of one of those miles. And from that point, he is bringing you to such a personal level about the effect of Robert Moses' work that I remember reading this chapter for the first time, and it was one of the many times I read the book where I got really mad. I got viscerally very angry about what was happening. And these are things that happened before my parents were born. This is stuff from –

past history and yet he manages to make it feel so alive and so vivid and also so contemporary in that these are issues that we're still going to deal with forever you know about

And balancing big needs versus small needs and individual lives versus ideas of the greater good. And it's just a it's a it's a really amazing chapter and it makes you wish you kind of step in and stop it, you know, from happening. Yeah, it has that it has that quality to it because you see these moments of like.

of where history could have changed. And you just really want it to change for these folks. So the chapter really is about one mile and the seven miles of the Cross Bronx Expressway. And he talks about it. It's this really interesting kind of moment in the beginning, which I don't know if it's even picked up on as much as I would want it to be, but there's this, he's setting the table for this is like,

Moses is an engineer that wants to just put roads straight because it's cheaper. Technically not an engineer, Roman. He calls himself an engineer. He's technically not. That's right. No training. That's right. No training as an engineer. But basically, that straight line crazy, that idea that a straight line is the perfect way to solve and cut through these things. Yes.

But the Cross Bronx Expressway in this one mile has this kind of swerve in it that seems to put it more in the path of more people than is necessary. And it's just a very interesting sort of like.

The foundation of this whole chapter is this sense that none of this had to happen. Like even if Moses was following his own kind of, I don't know, normal behavior or logical sense that all of this tragedy could be avoided. But for some reason he doesn't. I mean later on we kind of learned maybe the reason that he doesn't. Maybe. But you're right. Part of the horror of this chapter is that it seems irrational. Yeah. It seems like – and I feel like this has been –

This often happens in politics nowadays is that it feels like there are two choices, and one of the choices is so incredibly obviously better than the other, and yet it doesn't happen for some reason through some irrational emotional reason or some quirk of the specific situation. And yet running – you're right. Running through this whole chapter, it's like –

There's obviously a better route for this road that would not affect so many people, and he's not taking it. And it's so out of the ordinary for him that he's not – it seems like in this case, it should be a chapter about – in one case, Moses' rules for road building also matched up with what was best for the neighborhood. It would go through here across parkland, but he's just not doing it this way, and it's very strange. And so this part of the road, it could go across the top of – was it Gratona Park, I think? But instead it –

goes north, there's this bulge that takes it through the heart of a neighborhood called East Tremont in the Bronx. And we remember from chapter 25, way back in episode six, he's talking about the neighborhood of Third Avenue in Brooklyn, the one that was destroyed by the elevated highway that went over it. Here, he's kind of talking about this neighborhood in similar terms, kind of what once was there and kind of how, what a home and a community it was. This is a predominantly Jewish neighborhood. These are the people who

We're lucky enough to get out of the Lower East Side but not successful enough to go to Riverdale or the Grand Concourse, the kind of fancier parts of the Bronx. But here they could find this kind of clean, safe place.

… comfortable but not luxurious lower middle class life. These are the Jewish New Yorkers who are still working in the garment trade, but they are saving the money for their kids to go to college so that they can become ensconced in the middle class. And he really – I mean some would see it – some could see it probably as –

I don't know, cloying or kind of sugary, but he really pours it on about what a nice neighborhood it is, how easy it is for the people to live there and feel like they're in a community, how you're walkable to the Bronx Zoo, the Botanic Garden. There's no playgrounds there, but there are places to take kids. The elderly people there, they like to sit on benches. They can socialize. There's a couple generations of people there who are –

Considering it their home, you know. Yeah, yeah.

And there's something I want to talk about here because I feel like – I think one of the reasons this chapter hits me so hard is me being Jewish and this being a Jewish neighborhood. And I think one of the reasons it hits Caro so hard possibly is because he is also Jewish. And I think people reading this book in 1974 would pick up on the fact that being evicted, being pushed out, trying to find a home and being unable to is very much Jewish.

part of the eternal Jewish experience, but also especially the 20th century Jewish experience. Like this, people reading this book, many of them might have experienced, might be living in New York after having experienced the worst time to be Jewish in the history of the world. And Caro, later on, he like is literally quoting dialogue from Fiddler on the Roof. So he really gets, he's really hitting it hard later on. And I wondered if that, I wonder if it hits Gentiles the same way. I don't know. Well,

Speaking for the Gentile community. Yeah, Roman, I've taken on the mantle of Judaism. Tell me what it's like for non-Jews. I mean, I still think it's pretty, I still think it's quite accurate. I do think that when you are, you know, in a culture, those resonances and harmonies and stuff are just built into the stories, which I don't share. But one of the things that Caro does is I think he can make it

Um, he paints a picture that I think anyone can understand. And what he's very clear on is that, um, Moses looks at the same space and views it as tenements and slumps and, um, and doesn't see the value in it and doesn't see why you can't just, um, bulldoze it. Um, and, um,

You know, having lived mostly in, you know, normally shabby places that I considered my home, like that, that I understand, you know, like this thing is like this means something to me. This is a good place for me that maybe somebody else can't, you know, can't see, you know, like where people think like, oh, this place seems dangerous or, you know, this, you know, like, and it's like this. I don't know how to explain it to you, but this is my home. I don't feel fear here. I feel fine here.

Yeah. And that that I can certainly relate to. And one of the things that when you think about the value of what is lost is when he talks about loss.

The rents that people are paying. Oh, my God. I mean, I was talking about kind of wealth porn in the last chapter. This is the opposite of that, which is low rent porn, which is – they're like, you know, for a four-room apartment, this family pays $62 a month. For a six-room apartment, this family pays $69 a month. And this is in the Bronx. It's not in the heart of the ritzy parts of the city. But you just read it and you're like, oh, why can't I go back in time with like –

Regular money from now. Because when I first had my first apartment in New York, this was in 2002, and I lived on First Street and Avenue A. And it was two bedrooms and a kitchenette, and there were three of us in it. And it cost us altogether $14.75 a month. So I was paying $4.25 a month. And at the time I was like – oh, no, not $4.25, a little more than $4.25 a month. And I was like, what a steal. This is amazing. So to read it and be like, oh, my God.

Less than $70 a month for these enormous apartments. It's just – I mean, I guess you just have to keep it in the context of the times that this is also the late 40s, early 50s. But he does give the average wage. And when you compare them, it's kind of like – it seems to equate to maybe one-week wages.

That's true.

When you lose that, it's not like you just lose a location and you can go somewhere else. What you lose is the opportunity to ever have a place with that lower rent ever again. Oh, yeah. They'll never be able to get back on that same train that they were on if they get off here when their apartment is destroyed.

These are families where their finances are so precise. Like what they're paying for this apartment is what they – yeah, what they can afford to pay. And Kara talks about if you're a woman with a family, maybe your husband gets sick and misses a little bit of work. Now you can't afford the rent, and you slide back down to the Lower East Side to where the true tenements are. Like they – it's not like the people living in the apartments are like –

These apartments are so cheap. Look at all the money we have to spend on other things now. Like this is what their level is. And so, yeah, if they lose these apartments, they're losing a standard of living and they're losing a community that they cannot ever find again for the most part. Yeah, yeah.

So, this part of the story when Caro is talking about this neighborhood is where some of it in the language of the prose gives me pause. Like in sort of like exalting in the greatness of this easy to live in cheap neighborhood that has a good community, a strong community. He basically puts that against the

a neighborhood that is failing because of blight, an urban blight, and uses words like slums. And there's something about the way that he's presenting of why this works, of this sort of like the backbone of this Jewish community knows how to take care of its neighborhood, and that there's this other community nearby which does not, which I do not think

You know, I feel like having read this book and several other books by Robert Caro and talk to him and know, like, I know his heart as a progressive and person who cares about the oppressed, but the language of this does not.

comport with what how i would like people to talk about um underserved neighborhoods today yeah i agree he talks about uh the idea that there are neighborhoods to the south of the park that are yeah slum neighborhoods and there's this constant fear and also struggle to hold back the blight of those neighborhoods from moving up through the park to this neighborhood to turning it from no longer being kind of like a good poor neighborhood into a bad poor neighborhood and i

In doing that, he definitely speaks about blight and slums and as almost as if they were – you get the sense it's almost like this kind of inhuman evil fog or like stain that can spread and engulf other things. And there's – it's hard to read it now and not feel a racial element to it, a class element to it, things that –

I think even at the time, we're still baked in, but are at cross-purpose to, I agree, the sense I have of Robert Caro's own beliefs and his own feelings. And I wonder if it's more a matter of, which is rare for him, kind of like insensitivity to the specifics of the language he's using rather than a real intention to label the people who are in those situations as trouble. But he'll talk about

And there is a real sense in those passages that he is talking about kind of like worthy people and unworthy people, which is a painful thing to read. When you read it, you get a twinge of like, ugh, I don't like that. That's not good.

Yeah. But I think the reason why there's some there's some dehumanizing sense of it is I think he does dehumanize it as a condition. Like he's not saying that poor people are wrong or a certain type of poor people is wrong. He's saying like the sin here is poverty in general. But the language is, I think it's just imprecise here. Like you have to imagine when this book is being published in 1974, right?

Happy birthday, 50 years, Power Broker. Exactly. But the idea that urban blight is this monster that could take over and swallow New York a la Escape from New York. Yeah. Or Hedorah the smog monster from Godzilla vs. the Smog Monster. Yeah. Is a way that people thought about things and is very prominent. And he's probably speaking to these things. He's like, you cannot think of this as a plighted

Poor neighborhood that is not functional. This is one of these. This is a good neighborhood, even though it's poor. And he's trying to make that point. And I think in making that point, he he commits, I think, some sort of dismissal of of these other poor neighborhoods that are not as worthy of preservation or or care or lifting up and whose condition is poor.

Because of outside forces, not necessarily inside forces and not like just taking a point to recognize that that that dysfunction is the fault of people who are not living in it. Yeah, it's not that not the fault of the residents, but the fault of the people who are making the larger decisions, which I think is the larger message of the book that it's it's Robert Moses that is and the people like and they're doing this. But it in the writing, it does come up. It does. It does start to feel as if like there's a barbarians at the gates.

type attitude. Exactly. And I think a lot of that is also in probably the language of the people who he's interviewing. He's taking on some of that empathically and not checking it. It's just something to think about here that is worth taking head on versus just letting it go. But I mean, this is

I think of this as extremely progressive text. I think of it as a very important text that is, that is about, um, telling the stories and taking care of, of people who are ignored in history. Whereas most people, you know, write the history of Robert Moses, uh, through the greatness of Robert Moses. That's certainly how he would wish it was written. Um, and so, um, the overall intent I think is just, is, is, you know, is super heartfelt and, and meaningful, but I, I, I just have some misgivings about some of the way that this is presented. And at, at,

I would say mild misgivings about the way that's presented. Not spicy misgivings. Not to belabor it, but before we were talking about this before recording, Roman, you mentioned also, which I wasn't even thinking about that, when this book came out, New York was in bad shape. Like New York was in rough, rough shape. So the idea of

blight and the city deteriorating and rotting, you know, was something that was very much on people's minds. This was the period when it's, I mean, reading the book, it sounds like New York never had any money to do anything, but this is when New York really didn't have any money. And I think the way that you would describe, if this book was written now with 50 more years of New York's history, it would be a different framing and a different way of looking at it because the city now is so different than the city 50 years ago. I, I, I,

I mean, it's kind of amazing. Like the fact that in the subtitle is the fall of New York. I think that's a subtitle that can only exist in this narrow window of a few years. And so, you know, I think that a lot of that discussion has to do with that time that it was published. And, you know, and the fact that he's really like putting

putting his chips in on, like, this is the type of neighborhood East Tremont that should be preserved because of all these sort of connections he feels with it and the people he's talked to. So anyway, but what he does find when he's there are these folks who,

who, because they form these communities in East Tremont, they have a little bit of fight in them to stop this. And this is where a lot of the heartbreak is, is because you get the sense that they could, you know, like...

stop this from happening, but they cannot. You get the sense that in a properly functioning democracy, these people would have had their voices heard and been able to save their homes. In the Hollywood movie version of this, they were able to save their homes. Spoiler alert.

We'll get to it. Nobody saves their homes. But so it starts out – he's talked more in general about East Tremont. And then there's like a little space between paragraphs. And then there's this one-sentence paragraph that just says, the letters came on December 4th, 1952, one day after my birthday, many years before I was born but still. The East Tremonters –

They know there's an expressway coming their way. They've been hearing about it for so long, and it's been so long that nothing has happened that they kind of don't worry about it. It's like climate change. They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we've been hearing about it. It'll get to us someday, I guess so. And then they figure –

This – it's obviously going to go along the edge of the park. That's the best place for it. Like why wouldn't they put it there? But they get these letters signed by Robert Moses, city construction coordinator, saying where they live is needed for the Cross Bronx Expressway, and they have 90 days to move. And one of the residents, Lillian Edelstein, who will become a major figure in this chapter, she says it was like the floor opened up underneath your feet to get a letter in the mail saying you have 90 days. You have to leave your home, and there's no –

There's no way to push back against it. And the thing is that deadline, that 90-day deadline is incredibly arbitrary. Moses does not even have the money to get the title to the land yet. Like he doesn't even have the money to get the land and build on it. And he secretly is like, yeah, it's going to be about 18 months before…

Before the area is going to be clear of people. But he wants to scare them. He wants to make them feel like it's got to be done now. Get out of here. And people panic and they start looking for new apartments. And New York is in this post-World War II housing crunch. A lot of people are returning from the war. There hasn't been a lot of construction during the war because all the resources were going to the war. And there's not enough places for people to live. So they find –

They can't find apartments that they can afford that are anywhere near what they have been living in for most of their lives. Yeah, yeah. The reason the floor is opening up underneath them is they know...

like how precarious it is and how good they have it in this one spot and that it will not be replicated anywhere else. Um, again, this is where we were personal story, but when I, when the twins were born in Chicago, um, we got kicked out of our apartment and, a few weeks after they were born and they didn't like kick us out, kick us out. Like they just took down the fire escape and they began demolishing other parts of the apartment. And, um, I had to move three times in the first year of their life in Chicago. And,

And, um, it is, you, you feel like you are under siege in, in these situations and that if you can't rest in your home, it is like a war crime to me. Like, and that's what these people felt. And I, I just, I totally empathize with this. It's, that's very much, it's like exactly the situation that they're, they're dealing with here. It's, it's really intense and it's very scary. And so, um,

People are panicking, so they want to reassure the residents. So another letter goes out and it says, hey, you're in section two of the construction map. Section three, we already have been relocating tenants starting in 1946, and it went fine. And in section two, people are like, let's form a committee and go over there and see what it's like and what they find interesting.

And it's another – I'm just going to read a tiny bit of this. It's another classic Caro urban dystopia, you know, cataclysm writing. He says, where once apartment buildings or private homes had stood were now hills of rubble decorated with ripped open bags of rotting garbage that had been flung atop

Mrs. Edelstein says,

Over the rumble of the bulldozers came the staccato, machine-gun-like banging of jackhammers and occasionally the dull concussion of an exploding dynamite charge. And in the midst of this landscape of destruction, a handful of apartment buildings still stood. And they go into these buildings, and the places are wrecked. Like, they're just in shambles. They're filthy. And they'll knock on doors, and they'll find families like themselves.

still living in these apartments because they have not been relocated. And if they have been, they've been relocated to the next building down the line that is about to be destroyed. It's like something out of like a Franz Kafka or like a Philip K. Dick story that it's like you're being relocated one building down and then the building you were adjusting gets destroyed. You're being relocated again. The building you're in now is being destroyed. They're living out of suitcases kind of being moved from building to building, these people in section three. And each time they move, they get hit by a 15% rent bump.

Which is the thing that always astonishes me the most. They still have to pay rent and they're getting charged more to live in this kind of nightmare land. It's so – and Section 3 is like, oh, yeah, we got the same assurances that you guys got in Section 2. But when they found – there's this tenant relocation bureau, but the apartments found were worse and more expensive.

And the bureau basically says, well, you're on your own. If you move now, we'll give you some money to cover your moving costs. If you move into one of these worse apartments, it's more expensive. And people start to swallow their dignity and say, what about public housing? Like they're building all this public housing. We've never wanted to be on assistance. There's a stigma attached to it. But –

Can we – what about that? And they'll be like, the waiting list is tens of thousands of people long. And this one woman in Section 3, she's like, yeah, I've been on one of the waiting lists for public housing for six years. And it's just there's no – they feel like there's no way to go. They've journeyed from Section 2 to Section 3, the people of East Tremont, and they've seen this horrible glimpse of their future. And they need to do whatever they can to not be in this situation where their neighborhood is being torn down around them while they struggle to find a new place to live. It's really – it's like a –

real life urban equivalent of, you know, someone coming back from the Terminator world and being like, don't let this happen. You know, exactly, exactly. So they do what all, you know, good liberals do. Maybe they're liberals, maybe they're not. But they say, you know what? We just can make a logical case for the people involved. And if we just have the right argument, we can convince them that they're wrong and they should save this neighborhood. It's that we've seen it.

Time and again it works every time in this book. If as long as we can just sit down with the man, just sit down and explain our feelings and our situation, of course he'll see the truth. Oh, boy. These poor liberals. They are liberals. These are like ex-socialists and things like that. These are real hardcore. But what's funny is they're like, hey, maybe there's an alternate road for this. And they happen by luck.

to be kicked down the ladder to the one guy in the planning commission who was like, yeah, there is an alternate route. You know, it should go through the park. It shouldn't go through your homes. And that person is told never to talk to them again. It's,

It's so awful. He's just low enough to not feel like the presence of Robert Moses in every moment of his waking life. And so he looks at something with clear eyes, you know, uninfluenced. And he goes, yeah, totally. This would be so much better if it was right here. And then as soon as he suggests it, all of a sudden the shadow of Moses, like the eye of Sauron, turns on him. Yeah.

And they have to get an engineer who used to work for Moses but was kind of blackballed because he spoke his mind too many times. They have to get him to make plans for an alternate route that they can at least show to the city. But he goes, I'll only do it anonymously. People are so afraid of Moses that they do not want to be putting their name on this. The new route they have, it's nearly identical to the old one except it avoids their homes.

is less expensive and would be easier to build. And they're trying to get a meeting with Moses and Moses' office is like, it's not worth it. He's never going to change it. The coordinator has decided on the route. He is not going to change his mind.

And he's right. But they keep on going through this because they keep on finding other people. And this is where they try to, you know, they think this is what democracy is for. I'm going to talk to the borough president and see if they support us. And mostly when they meet with, you know, these people individually, they go, yeah, that doesn't make sense. Yeah, I'll support this change and present it. But every time they present it to someone, it's...

And the East Tremonters, they're doing everything right. Like they form a neighborhood association. They are lobbying their elected representatives. Like they are trying to get into the press. They're doing everything right. And they just simply –

They're not having no results, and it's because of Moses. And there's a thing that Moses says that really hits me hard because it is – he's making that argument of like, no, because I don't care, that means I'm the best person to talk about this. And he says, this route will be the backbone of traffic for centuries after a few objecting tenants have been removed from the scene.

You have – this is a letter he writes to the Bronx borough president. You have from time to time remarks that I do not have to be elected to office. Perhaps that is why I'm in a position to protect the really long-range public interest, this idea that because I'm not answerable to the public, that's why I can do the hard things that have to be done even though people don't like them. And I'm like, what is he, a Supreme Court justice? What's going on here, Moses? Boom, relevant, relevant. And he pulls his tricks all the time of –

If you obstruct me, I'm going to take money away from your borough. I'm going to reveal things about you that you don't want people to know. And like you're saying, they just – in private, they will meet with the East Tremonters, and mostly – and these are mostly women from East Tremont. And this is the early 1950s. These are women who are not used to taking a public role in something, and they're finding this strength and this courage to go from up in the Bronx down to City Hall, a place that they've never imagined they would have reason to go to. Right?

And to talk to these very powerful people and say, you need to help us save our homes, and they'll be like, of course, of course. And then it just doesn't happen. Moses' route is just kind of going through the process without really any obstruction. And in theory, Carol says, East Tremont, the people there, they could have slowed it down with a legal battle.

But lawyers cost money. They don't have that money. None of them are lawyers. They're not educated people. They're garment workers, and so they can't do the work themselves. And later on, we're going to see a successful fight with Moses, and the difference there is the people fighting him are upper-middle-class people who have access to money. Some of them are lawyers. They have access to the press in a way that ordinary people, the people of East Vermont, don't.

do not. And they feel like it's hopeless, but they still fight. And Lillian Edelstein really becomes, is one of these like civic heroes that shows up in the book where she's doing things she's never done before. Like she's teaching herself how to type and run a Mimeo machine. She's teaching herself how to run a local camp, a publicity campaign. Like she's arranging rallies. She's chartering buses, things that she's never thought she'd had to do. She's doing now, but enthusiasm just keeps falling. It's hard because they keep hitting failure after failure after failure. But Roman, you know,

There's one person who seems to have been listening to them. Who is it? Who could be their potential savior in this situation? It's Robert F. Wagner Jr. This is before he's the mayor. We talked about him as the mayor in a couple chapters ago. So if this was a Marvel comic, there'd be an asterisk that would say, takes place between Impey and Wagner in chapter 34, Smile and Stan, you know, something like that, you know.

That's right. So right now he's the Manhattan borough president and part of the board of estimate. And also he's right now is about to run for mayor. So he sees all these people, these potential voters, of which there are many. I mean, you're talking about 1,500 apartments. That's at least 1,500 voters and probably more like 3,000 to 5,000 voters. It's something around 5,000 people, I think, Carol makes it sound like. So yeah, this is a – it's not enough to

to like win an election, but it's enough to make it to swing an election probably in a close one. Like you want those people. Yeah. So at some point he promises them that he will, you know, hold off any approval of the combination of their different properties and stuff. And he kind of like

I'm trying to think of this crests over to when he's the mayor, does it? It does. So he's the Manhattan Borough President and he says, yes. And on the campaign, he says, I will not approve this route. I will not vote for this route. That's right.

This is being built with federal and state money, and I represent those officials. And I think it's amazingly telling that he says, I represent those officials. He does not represent the people of New York. He represents the money brokers that he's dealing with. He goes, and if you try to move this –

You're not going to get the money for this road, and you're not going to get the money from the state or the federal government that you want ever again. And Wagner as mayor, he tries to drag it out as long as he can, and the deputy mayor offers his support too. And there are moments of hope, and then they're undermined, and they study an alternate route, but it turns out most of the staff studied the wrong route on purpose, and in the end –

It doesn't matter. Moses applies his pressure. The deputy mayor switches sides. Everyone on the board, including Mayor Wagner, votes to approve the condemnation of East Tremont, even though he has been on the record saying – first saying, I will not vote for this unless these people are relocated first, and then saying, I will not vote for this. Yeah.

But then he does it, and the East Tremonters meet with the mayor, and they go, what's going to happen to us? And he's like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen to you. They've been completely sold out, and they can't understand why. But the mayor has been assured that an efficient private firm, the Nassau Management Company, will handle their relocations. So don't worry. I guess they're in good hands. Yeah.

And years later, Caro says he talks to Moses and he wants to know why did Epstein change his vote with the deputy mayor Epstein? Why did he change his vote, which led to the mayor also changing his vote? And Caro makes a notice of saying that like when nobody remembers this vote and when he talks to the deputy mayors who at this point had died to his widow, she's like, I don't know what you're talking about. Like, I don't I don't have any idea what this is. But Moses remembers. And he says, quote, he was hit over the head with an axe, but I won't tell you what we did to him.

But in his words, he seems to be hinting that they were maybe going to reveal an affair that Epstein was having or insinuate that he was having an affair. And Karo says, like, what about the difficulties of all these people building it? And Moses says, there are more people in the way. That's all.

And talking about the people of East Tremont, he says it was a political thing that stirred up the animals there. And he has no regrets, doesn't care, does not see those people as people. And one of the shattering things is that the New York Times reports on this story basically not at all. But the one time they do is when the route gets approved, and it's just noting that after years of delay, the Cross Bronx will finally finish its construction. Like this is a victory for the Cross Bronx Expressway and for the city.

And it comes after this long – like we've really done a kind of brisk summary of it, but this long story of these people trying and trying and trying and doing all the right things, all the things you're supposed to do in a democracy to save your home. And it just doesn't matter, and the people in power are mostly deaf to them, and even when they seem to be hearing them, they bow to the other pressures. Moses just – he's got the power, and these people do not have that power.

And so then, you know, Caro tries to sort of spend a moment here to go like, well, why did this have to happen at all? Why did this bump out have to happen? Why did the alternate route not be chosen? That seems straighter. That seems like it would displace far fewer people. It would cost much less money. That's money he could spend on other roads. He loves building roads. He doesn't like to waste money. And the people fighting it have heard rumors that maybe the Tremont Bus Depot, you know, like it was necessary to preserve roads.

all kinds of things. Maybe the Bronx borough president had like a relative that owned land there. Like they're hearing, nobody really knows for sure. And the rumors sound, I mean, Caro seems to kind of lean on the bus one a little bit, but the rumors sound like rumors. They sound like someone desperately trying to figure out from a nip of something they heard from, you know, a neighbor, what it might possibly be. It's something that I know Caro hates doing, which is being like, yeah, we don't know. We don't know why he did it. Yeah.

And but what it comes down to and what Carol sort of settles on is that it doesn't matter. The reasons don't they don't matter in the real world because the reasons don't really matter to Moses. What Moses wants is what Moses goes after. And that's it. That's the end of it.

Doesn't like to be questioned. Yeah. The reason Moses did it is less important than the fact that only Moses' reason was the important one. Whatever reason he had, whether it was a whim, whether he was like, I think I'm going to try a slanty line this time. I'm going to put a curve in my road. I'm tired of straight lines. It doesn't matter. Whatever he felt was

was the only factor that was important in the decision. And Caro says, "...neighborhood feelings, urban planning considerations, cost, aesthetics, common humanity, common sense, none of these mattered in laying out the roots of New York's great roads. The only consideration that mattered was Robert Moses' will."

And it should go without saying – we're going to talk about this more I guess I think in a little bit in the next chapter possibly. But it goes without saying the Nassau Management Company, which gets millions of dollars in relocation contracts in the city, is controlled by three of Moses' key aides and we'll see is terrible. It's very bad at what it does. It's just another corruption thing. And there's a black line here that separates sections of the chapter, which is another thing he doesn't do that often. Every now and then, Robert Caro will throw in a little formatting trick that you don't expect to see. And –

He's doing it because he wants to introduce a quote, which he doesn't usually do, which is this section of dialogue from Fiddler on the Roof, which is the moment when the characters, the Jewish residents of the shtetl of Anatevka – I could go into it in more detail. It's a show that is very important to me. The moment when they realize they are being evicted from their homes. They've received a piece of paper. It's a letter from the czar saying you have to leave, and he's so explicitly comparing the relocation of these tenants with…

to the expulsion of the Jews from the Pale of Settlement, the area of Russia that Jews were allowed to live in, and then were told, no, you can't live in here anymore. And it's the expulsion that led many of the families in this chapter to come to the United States in the first place. It's the kind of expulsion that led my family to come here in the first place. And so as an East Coast, fiddler-on-the-roof-loving Jewish guy with Eastern European roots in his family, this parallel, it just hits me so hard that he's – and there's a certain added aspect that I think –

Caro doesn't go into, but the idea that there's a kind of tribalism that should not play a part in politics, but that Moses is a Jew who is doing this to fellow Jews is like a little bit of extra bad. He should know if anyone because this is something that if he felt any sense of community with these people, which he doesn't, he would be aware of. But it's just a moment where it feels like Caro is going out of his way to –

Create a parallel between an explicitly non-democratic moment as well. That Moses is not just acting like a dictator or whatever. He's acting specifically like the czar of Russia, which is the kind of thing that America is not supposed to have or do at all. And it strikes me especially – it's not a connection I expect – Caro expected anyone to make because they didn't know exactly which books and musicals I had seen and read. But that –

Moses is comparing himself earlier to Lincoln and that Lincoln said at one point that the – specifically used Russia as an example that if slavery is legal in the United States, then all the things that America says about equality and freedom and democracy are false. It's all hypocrisy and that he would rather live in a place like Russia then, which does not have the base alloy of hypocrisy as he calls it and is open about the fact that it is a kingdom run by a czar unlike the United States, which purports to be something different. And so it's just –

Caro here is – he's making these connections and swimming in these waters especially hard in this chapter, this idea that Moses is in the chapter about RM, the fun-loving party thrower. He is a king in the fun way, and here he is a czar in the bad way where he is throwing people out of their houses. Yeah, yeah.

And if you thought the other part was heartbreaking, this is in a way where the misery really begins when they finally decide that this is the end of this neighborhood. And as hinted at, the Nassau Management Company is not really up to the task. No.

Its office is located far away. Its business hours are like maybe a couple hours a day, he mentions. And so people go there to try to find that the apartments there that they're offering people to be placed are far worse than they than the ones they came from. There are long lines of people waiting for them. And then the women show up to go look at them and they go, well, if none of these people are going to take it, it must be so awful that I wouldn't want to take it either.

Yeah.

Surprise. It's terrible, and it's leaving them with no place to turn at the exact time that now that Moses has the ability to take control of these buildings, he is physically making it so incredibly undesirable and uncomfortable to live there to push them out. So January 1st, 1954, he takes over these buildings, turns off the heat, turns off the hot water.

And Roman, I know you live in Northern California where it's kind of chilly sometimes, but January in New York can get very cold. It's very cold. Yeah, it's not a time when you don't want heat or hot water, and it's not like they can find it too many other places. It's the 1950s. There's not that many places to go to stay warm at the time unless – if you don't have money to spend. Yeah.

On May 1st of that year, the residents are sent notices warning them to move out by the end of month or they'll be evicted. These are false notices. They have no legal backing. It's just more of this scare tactic. And so families start to move. There are elderly widows that are trying to last as long as they can, but they start getting scattered to various public housing projects. There's this part that is so sad where it's these elderly couples that have met later in life. They are not married, but they are in love and married.

They can't get apartments in the same public housing projects. The system is just not set up that way. And so they're just kind of scattered around the city and they're too poor to afford car fare to see each other. And so these elderly people are just never going to see their friends or their loved ones again. It's just not going to happen. They're going to live alone and lonely. It's so sad. It's so incredibly sad. I mean, that's something that Caro pointed out in our interview, like that the loneliness was what struck him the most of people's lives. That was the

saddest part. They didn't really harp on the physical structures they lost or anything like that. It was really about that loneliness of being isolated. And yeah, sure, they have a place to live. Maybe they landed on their feet and found a place to live that was too expensive for them. But they never got back that sense of community and connection with other people. Something that has always struck me about the work of 99% Invisible, a really wonderful podcast about architecture and design that I love, is that

You often – and the reporters who work on it, all the great and amazing staff of reporters and editors and writers and et cetera. Mostly them at this point, yes. Yeah. As absentee landlord, Roman Mars, goes on his power broker jaunts. There's a real emphasis on the emotional impact often of infrastructure, of architecture, of living. And it's very easy for –

official organizations to put a lot of emphasis on the money something costs, on the amount of work that has to be put into it, on the amount of cars that can be moved per hour or per day through a space, the amount of money you can raise in tolls without putting the emphasis that deserves to be there on the emotional cost of something because it's harder to quantify and it's easier to dismiss because it's an individual thing. But that loneliness, that Caro hits it and that this isn't just a matter of people living in

more run-down apartments than before. But yeah, this is a matter of their feeling of security in the world taking a hit, their feeling of living in a place where they know the people and have relationships with them being hit, their sense that they have any sort of control over their lives in this world being hit. It's such a

I'm glad that Caro also looks at it from the point of view of how are these people feeling about it and getting that across because in many ways it's so devastating and it's like I feel lucky. I've never been thrown out of my home, but I've been lonely. I know what it's like to be lonely and to live that way every day with no end in sight is – it's so horrifying. It's a nightmare. And they just –

bungle everything about this in terms of taking care of these people. I mean, not that his intention was ever to take care of these people. Yeah, I feel like bungle implies that they were trying and they failed out of incompetence, whereas they just, they're trying to do it on the cheap and with as little effort as possible. Yeah, yeah.

But they keep claiming success, which is infuriating. And probably it keeps on being reported as a success. At a certain point at the end of that year, the Nassau Management Company announces that in less than 10 months, we have relocated 90% of the 1,530 occupants of Section 2, which is a lie. Yeah. I mean, they've moved out. I mean, they weren't relocated by the management company because at this point also –

As soon as people start moving out, they start tearing those buildings down. And they're tearing apart buildings while people are still living in them. If the top floor gets vacated completely, it doesn't matter if there are people living in the next floor. They'll just start ripping the top floor off. And so it becomes this self-sustaining cycle of people who have tried to stay have to leave because their buildings are being destroyed around them. And this once comfortable neighborhood – not comfortable in a rich sense but comfortable in a – you felt safe and you felt home there. Suddenly it is –

Just rubble. The rubble gets lit on fire. Crime starts to go through. Vandals come in. He talks about how one mother finds her sons jumping back and forth over a hole 20 feet deep because the basements of these buildings that are no longer there are just open pits full of debris that they don't even put fences around. It's another one of these, again, more urban dystopia stuff where it's just like rats and glass all over the floor. It's like rats, glass, and dust everywhere. And

I don't know if you've ever read the book The Sheep Look Up by John Brunner. It's a science fiction kind of ecological catastrophe horror satire novel, and it's the only book I can think of that comes close to my feeling reading this. And that's one where it's extrapolating into the future world where the environment has just collapsed and everyday life is a nightmare. Just this idea of, yeah, anyway, I'm trying to still live in my neighborhood. They won't push me out, but everything is rats and glass and dust and vandalism. It's just –

And so, yeah, by the end, they haven't necessarily relocated 90% in a good way, but they've certainly pushed them out. And that's a victory that the Nassau Management Company is happy to announce. Yeah. So that's the story of one mile of the Cross Bronx Expressway. And that leads us to the next chapter. It is the afterword.

of the previous chapter, which mostly you have afterwards when you're talking about a whole book. But apparently this chapter is itself kind of its own sort of dystopian novel. And so it has an afterword. What is going on here, Elliot? Why do we have an afterword for the previous chapter we just read?

This is an interesting question because, as you mentioned, afterwords are usually for whole books. You don't – it's like putting an epilogue in the middle of a novel. I mean like this is the epilogue for that last chapter. And you're like, well, why didn't you just make it the next chapter or part of the previous chapter? And I think –

He is doing it for effect, for dramatic and structural effect, but also because he is – there's a little bit of a pun there maybe that he is literally talking about what happened afterward, what happened after that chapter. And I think he wants to – I think it's actually I think really masterful that in that one-mile chapter, he is taking you through –

The experience of being a resident of that neighborhood as it is taken from them. And in this next chapter, he can kind of zoom out a little bit and instead look at it from the point of view of numbers and facts and figures and the consequences of what happened. That's right. This is about how the fact that it isn't just all those people being moved out destroyed that neighborhood. The fact of this highway dividing this section of the Bronx destroyed this neighborhood in a way that was beyond reasonable.

Yes. It is the continuing tragedy that happens after that construction. I guess that's a great way to think about it, that this afterward is a little bit his way of saying everything is after this and it doesn't end. It doesn't stop. Yeah, it's not like –

Well, we had to break some eggs to build that road, but now the road is here. Everything functions great as I intended. It's wonderful. And you know what? I mean, it was amazing. It was chapter 38, one mile afterward. It just starts with, and he was right. The road was great and everybody loved it. Like that's, it's not going to, I mean, that's not going to happen when the chapter previous to the last one was the meat axe. It's just not, it's people don't title the chapters meat axe when good things happen at the end. So yeah.

It's November 1955. The tenants have been rushed out of their homes. Time to build that highway. When the money comes through. They don't have it at the moment. It turns out traffic is going to be heavier than expected, so they've got to build some new bridges too. And you know what? We're going to try to finish some other stuff sooner in time for the 1958 gubernatorial election. So this road where it was so important that these people be kicked out of their homes because construction had to start in 90 days –

It isn't finished until 1973. The East Tremont section isn't complete until 1960. So it takes five years after he throws everybody out to get the money and then build the road. And it's just like even if you like the road and you feel like they had to be kicked out, those are at least a couple years that they might have been able to stay in their homes. And the

And this road is so expensive. The Crossbrocks Project, originally Moses was like, oh, yeah, it'll cost $47 million. It ends up costing about $250 million, which is amazing. But he says only 5,000 people were evicted from East Tremont. It's not like the whole neighborhood was kicked out. There are still 55,000 East Tremonters who did not need to leave their homes. They get to stay. Wonderful. Everything will be fine for them as a massive road is dug down.

Deep into the earth, right under their windows, and they have to deal with the consequences of the stuff that we were reading about earlier with Section 3. An expressway is going through their neighborhood, so it's the demolition noise, jackhammers, drilling, blasting. The ground is shaking. The buildings they're in haven't been evicted from. The buildings are not condemned, but the walls are starting to break, and fissures are opening up in the floors because the buildings are shaking. Buildings shift to the point that they are unsafe to live in.

And there's dust everywhere. There's dirt everywhere. The residents start to call it fallout. They talk about if you sit in a chair in your apartment, you will be covered in dust and dirt. Like you wake up in the morning and you're covered in dust and dirt. It sounds so incredibly disgusting. The idea that if you stop moving, dirt just settles all over you. It's horrifying. It's so gross. But at least you can still go about normal life, right? Even though it's expressways going through your neighborhood, right? You can still do your normal stuff. Not at all. You can't do anything. And it's...

And even after it's done, the way that this – and this is something we talked about with AOC – the way that this divides and sort of makes what used to be a neighborhood not function by having this split in it is just –

But it's like it's a little bit more slow motion devastating, just like the basic functioning doesn't work. But they also just like he talks about how, you know, like you can hear the jackhammers and that's one thing. And maybe the jackhammers go away. But then, you know, the the amount of poison that these cars produce.

spit out. Like you just live with the, like the carbon monoxide and it makes people sick. It just makes everything worse and worse and worse and just degrades this neighborhood in a million ways beyond just destroying the apartments that were in the way of the road.

Yeah, it's that the idea that when the construction finishes, the road is still making it a worse place to live. He mentions that he goes, he goes, people get nausea, they get headaches, they get dizziness for days, and then their bodies acclimate to the carbon monoxide, which is, I think, one of the scariest parts of this of this book, maybe to me, the idea that a human body is just like.

I guess I'll just deal with all this poisonous gas going into me, and you have no idea what other effects are going on because you're no longer feeling the symptoms of it. That your body is just like, look, where you're living is so unsafe that I'm just not even going to tell you about it anymore because I told you plenty through how bad you were feeling, and you didn't go anywhere. It's just unbearable, and more and more people move away.

They are replaced by poorer residents, mostly poor black residents, and this is where some of that language starts coming in where I think to give Carol the benefit of the doubt, he is not trying to villainize the people moving in but is villainizing the forces that are –

breaking these neighborhoods down uh a lot of those residents he mentions get moved they move in and they are taken advantage of by their landlords they get charged much higher rents than the the jewish east tremont people who are leaving and the buildings are going unmaintained and it's really the people in positions of power that are allowing these buildings to deteriorate that's the kind of thing that karo sing invites vandalism theft break-ins uh and

People are just moving away. Businesses are moving away because the insurance rates are going up so high. When you leave a boarded-up storefront behind, that contributes to this feeling that the neighborhood is falling apart, and it creates the opportunity for more kind of trouble in the neighborhood.

And by 1962, 1963, there are stories of horrible crimes being committed, one in particular, this assault of a teacher who is leading a class trip in the park and gets kidnapped and assaulted. And Caro cannot ascertain the truth of this story. He can't really see if it actually happened. But the rumor of it is enough to drive more people out. And hey –

There's maybe some hope. In 1959, a new group of residents because Edelstein, the former kind of champion of the neighborhood, she has long since moved away. They have a way to save the neighborhood. Look, what if we made this a Title I housing development project? And they bring it to Moses who oversees the Title I housing city, and he's like, I like it. I approve of this project. But you know what? Instead of being a small, low-income project, let's make this a 5,400-unit community.

It's going to go in the space where the best apartment buildings that are still standing are. We're going to tear those down, and we'll put it in, and these will be middle-income rents, which is higher than the residents can pay. And so it's this sad thing of like they agitated for a solution, and the solution made things worse for them. And the residents, they try to use a different housing program that Moses doesn't have control over, and they find land that the city owns. They find a private developer who will do the job, and the city is like, great.

Turns out that land is technically owned by the Triborough Authority. Oh, no. And it's just – they feel like there's no way of fighting Moses. He controls everything. They're helpless. More people are leaving. It's so – it's just every step. It's terrible. Moses is behind every door. It's like the story of the lady and the tiger except it's called the tiger and the tiger. All the doors have tigers behind them. Like there's no good way to do it. Yeah.

It's terrible. Yeah. And so this sort of... This neglect by the powers that be, it creates more problems in the community. And it just...

It just gets worse and worse because powerful people in charge have chosen this place to be abandoned. And there is no investment. It's just a mess. But one of the things that's interesting is that it's really a testament to how these larger forces are the things that cause chaos.

This type of effect in a neighborhood. He makes a point in the previous chapter. He says, this is the kind of neighborhood that works. And if you left it alone, even with the forces of blight that everyone's worried about, it would keep working. And when new people move into this neighborhood, they are brought into the neighborhood and assimilated into it and it works. And he just he says, all right, if you leave this neighborhood alone, it will survive. And they don't leave it alone. And it gets mangled.

And by now, East Tremont is in a different place than it was 50 years ago. But it took –

many years of work, I'm assuming from authorities, but also from the people living there. Mostly from the people living there to make it a place worth living in again. Yeah. Things are made worse by the powers that be and things are made better by a community sort of like bucking against those trends. This is why, Roman, I'm glad that we're finally getting into the kind of hardcore libertarian sentiment that I feel like has always been an important part of 99PI. No, I hate to, I believe so much in the power of

Yeah.

But what's important to just remember – For the record, I just want to make sure people know I don't think there's a hardcore libertarian theme running through 99.pi. There is not. And mostly I like a government that works, but I like them to work – I like it to work for the people. You like a meat axe that is cutting up meat for people to enjoy when they're hungry. You don't like a meat axe that is cutting through homes. That's right. But –

This place, what roads do roads like this that are meant to move people through a place and not in a place to move people out. So like the one of the people we will talk to in this episode, Majora Carter, one of the things that she talks about in her writing and her work is that the ultimate goal is

of someone who lives in a neighborhood that's been abandoned by the powers that be is that you get to get out of that neighborhood instead of staying in to build it and to make it better in different ways for the people who serve it, whose equity they can build, who they can pass on, that can, like...

accrete and begin to like grow the way that a lot of people have, have had that ability to sort of like to, to build wealth. And usually, you know, real estate is the way people build wealth in this world. And, and,

And and but when you have a place like this that's undervalued and left behind, but its inherent value could be so great. There's people who come in and are predatory that that don't serve the public and and take it away. And it takes a real mindset change of of like being in a place, investing in a place and and thinking of it differently than as something to go through or get out of.

Or to look down on. Yeah, exactly.

As opposed to the expert coming in and saying roads are great and I like roads and the best way to do it is to go straight through where you live. And it's true. Like the Bronx is not the place it was in the 1970s. The Bronx is a great borough. I really love it. When I lived in New York, I wish that I went there more often. I usually did not have a reason. I had to invent reasons to go up there other than to go to the zoo, which I love.

But my wife and I, we both have kind of family roots there, people who lived there a long time ago, and it's a great borough. But when you go there and when you ride in the Cross Bronx Expressway, like it does feel like you are riding through a scar that the borough has –

managed to heal past in many ways, but it's still there. It's like a, and if it's a, I'd like to say that it's a, it's a C-section scar that's left behind because of the birthing of a new and better world. You know, it's a, it's a, it's a symbol of the work and the, and the sacrifice that went into creating something great. But in reality, it seems like, it seems like someone hit the Bronx with a meat axe and it took, and then the Bronx is healed, but the scar is still there. And it's just very, it's sad that that, that scar probably,

didn't have to be there at all. I mean, I will clearly say it didn't have to be there at all. I mean, this is... Let the jury still out, Roman. I mean, we've got to wait till the evening to see how good the day has been. Okay, I got it. Let's give it another 100, 200. When aliens arrive and the only way to defeat them is to march our troops down the cross Bronx and that's how we can get into the weak point of their ship, we'll be glad that Moses did it, you know, someday. That story. I'm sure that was one of his plans, you know, yeah.

These are a couple of really rough, dark chapters where Moses is at the height of his power. He's also kind of the worst he is as a human. That happens like a little bit more in the book, but I think...

By next – I think maybe in the next episode or subsequent episodes, things – the Robert Moses temple begins to crumble. Yes. If you've been waiting for this guy to fall, you're like, he just keeps getting higher and higher in the power structure and he never receives his comeuppance. By the end of the next episode, his uppance will begin to come. And then –

It's all just, and then it's all just tumbling down from that point. You're going to start seeing him losing battles. You're going to start seeing people not liking him. You're going to, you're going to, and you're, I promise you this, listener, I promise you, you will hear an episode, not next episode, but someday when Robert Moses offers to resign and that resignation gets accepted. I promise you, you will, you will get to hear that someday. So hold out. Don't, don't lose hope. Hold on. Don't lose hope. It is coming. There's a light at the end of the tunnel. So stick with us.

What's up, podcast listeners? It's Tanks, host of the It's Me Tanks podcast. Join me weekly on It's Me Tanks as I dive into topics like relationships, why it's okay to feel lonely, fighting summer comparison, and pop culture's hottest takes. I

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And now for a conversation with Majora Carter. Majora is another one of those people I knew I wanted to have on the show from the very beginning. The way she thinks about neighborhoods like the South Bronx, where she grew up, is directly antithetical to the way Moses viewed them. He saw them as places to move through as quickly as possible, to get out of, and she sees them as places to stay. My name is Majora Carter, and I am an urban revitalization strategist and also a real estate developer.

And I'm from the South, South Bronx in New York City. Well, let's talk about first being from the South, South Bronx, New York City. You were born, raised and you continue to live in the South Bronx. Tell me about how Robert Moses has influenced your life. Wow.

Before I even knew of a Robert Moses, he was influencing my life because my neighborhood really did bear the scars of his handiwork. And I lived in an area that literally...

that it had a little piece of a highway in it that was never actually built, but was, but served to separate my community from itself and from the waterfront that honestly I didn't know existed because that little highway was, was stuck there. You know, there were years of financial disinvestment that came as a result of all sorts of things, but in particular, most notably like in my lifetime much of the, the, the

the fires that happened as a result of the financial disinvestment landlords were torching their buildings because there was no kind of money coming in because of redlining, you know, and the collaboration of the banking industry, you know, within that as well. You know, again, all kind of Robert Moses's work played part and parcel to that. Like, did he cause all that? No, but did it

Exacerbate it all. Yes. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. So let's talk about one of those like specific instances where this kind of abandoned bridge like clearing was this dumping ground that you helped turned into Hunts Point Riverside Park. So tell me about that story and when it happened and just like the details of that.

Yeah, it was sort of funny having growing up in here in the South Bronx and feeling the impact of just how disinvested we were, you know, not just economically, but I also feel like

It was almost a spiritual disinvestment that many people from our communities experienced because, you know, especially during the era I grew up in where there was a lot of abandoned buildings, you know, where that had been burned out as a result of the fires and also lack of financial investment in them as well.

So I grew up with that in my mind and literally worked to measure my success by how far I got away from my neighborhood with education. You know, got myself into some great schools and was sworn never to come back except for my mother's really, really good fried chicken. And so I did often. But living here was not something I really wanted to do. But I had to because I was broke.

And when I started graduate school and needed a cheap place to stay and, you know, the cheapest place I knew was mommy and daddy's house, my old bedroom. And that's what I did. And it was then, you know, here I am going to school at NYU, not spending a whole lot of time here and only got connected, reconnected to my community because I

I discovered that there happened to be, and in a part of the program I was in, was this young man who had been working on opening an arts organization here. And that was unbelievable discovery. It was literally two blocks away from my house. But through that, as I started doing art stuff, you know, and having like the time of my life and like, oh my gosh, there are actually people in my neighborhood who are super cool. And so that was fun. But then we

We discovered that there was this huge waste facility that was about to be placed on our waterfront thanks to the city's rather discriminatory land use policies that continued to concentrate environmentally burdensome facilities in poor communities of color around New York City. And my neighborhood was one of those neighborhoods.

And so it was around that time when I understood that no, not, there wasn't enough art in the world that was going to help our neighborhoods. And so I really started looking for what,

What we can do to create more of an opportunity for us to feel like our neighborhood had some kind of value. Because it was just like, again, the spiritual disinvestment that I started this with. People felt like there was nothing you can do in our neighborhoods and that the best you can do was get out of it if you could. And that just felt weirdly wrong.

wrong in every single way, you know, because it was just an admission. Because for me, maybe it was, I was happy that I did have some education and some distance because that's when I realized, I was like, oh, it is because we're a poor community of color and that's politically vulnerable that we're being treated this way. So how do we flip that dynamic? And so

One of the, so we did, I definitely worked on things like, you know, how do you develop a much more sustainable solid waste management plan, which was a, which is an amazing, wonderful undertaking that I'm just grateful that I got to be a part of with a bunch of other really incredible people. But what was really interesting to me was like how, in addition to fighting against stuff, what are we fighting for? Because again, this is our neighborhood that has been literally defined and

created outside of our hopes and dreams and desires? And what is it that we can do to make it something that actually feeds our

hopes and dreams and all that good stuff. So we started thinking about that. And one of the things that came up is how often people would take their kids outside of the neighborhood in order to experience nice things, whether it was, you know, a shop or a park. And that's when I kept getting these notices from this woman named Jenny Hoffner. And she was working with the parks department at the time through a grant program.

from the US Forest Service. And they were working specifically on threatened urban waterways around the country. And the Bronx River, the only true freshwater river in all of New York City,

is one of those threatened, very urban rivers. And Robert Moses, and now we're back to Robert, was the biggest threat to it because Lord have mercy, literally. So he built all the spaghetti network of parkways that literally run through the Bronx and cross it. And it's really hilarious when you look at a map and see it. And then there's the Bronx River Parkway. And

I only knew that there was a real Bronx River because I could see it on a subway map, but I had never seen it. Literally, I had never seen the daggone thing. And he rather famously wanted people to travel on the parkways and cars, of course. And their goal was to have something nice to look at as they traveled along the way. And he just thought that

The way rivers kind of meandered, you know, that like, you know, sort of swishy way that they do was just like, that wasn't cute. And, you know, who wants to make those hairpin turns, you know, you know, as they're like on a parkway in their big old car, like, oh God forbid. And so he straightened the river in this ridiculous engineering feat that was just the most horrible thing. I mean, just terrifying for the river. Yeah.

And so here was this Jenny Hoffner lady. She was so cool. She was very cute. Like, I just adored her. She was just like, look, we've got this little seed grant, you know, for people who want to do work on the Bronx River. And I'm like, well, she is obviously really smart and knows all sorts of things. But clearly she doesn't know you can't get to the river from here. And to be clear, let's let's draw a picture. So why can't you get to the river from there? What is in the way?

Yes. Okay. So again, there is a river. We knew that. It was somewhere out there. But all along where we knew the river was, there was a whole other layer of industry. There was either some light manufacturing. There was the Hunts Point Market, which literally is the second world's largest food distribution center, which literally covers all of it. And it's about

And in my neighborhood, it's only about 690 acres. They take up a third of the acreage in this entire community. So most of it's on the waterfront. So it's just like, you can't really get there. It's like ridiculous. And so that's all I knew to be on the waterfront. Right.

So that doesn't sound very hospitable, but I had a crazy, just a very large, crazy dog at the time. Her name was Zina. Yes. For some of us of a certain age, she was named after the warrior princess. It's true. And she was just like utterly rambunctious and I'd go jogging with her. And so one time while I was still in the neighborhood, she pulled me to what I thought was just sort of like a dog.

a dump like that you could see from the street. And I saw it like pretty much every time I went running, it was like, it never occurred to me to go into it. Cause it's a dump. It's like, it's just like part of the dumps that are, you know, around here. But this time one day she literally pulled me and decided there was something in there that she just had to get. And I was just happened to be at the other end of her leash. And she pulled me in and I was just like, this is gross. I mean, there was like,

Weeds, piles of garbage, like everywhere. And I'm like trying to run through it, like, you know, like hurtling over these things. It was just crazy pants. And there she was having the time of her life. But literally at the end of it, at a clearing, I realized, oh my God, I did just run through a dump. But what I'm facing now at the end of that little run was nothing.

this beautiful river and it was really early it was like six o'clock in the morning and and it really is an image i will never forget because it's just like that was like beautiful kind of it wasn't magic hour but it felt like it was and it was like the sunlight was glinting off the water it was it was a good high tide so it just looked really beautiful and you could see like this

with this crazy park across the river that really was just like a bunch of weeds, but I didn't care. It looked really beautiful from where I was standing. And I was like, oh my gosh, like this is, this is, this is the Bronx river. There is a river here. I had, who knew? And, um,

And that's when I thought, oh, maybe Jenny, like, figured that maybe I might figure this out. Yeah. And she was 100% right. Went back, wrote the proposal, you know, to get this tiny little seed grant. And after that, like, I was the craziest driven woman. And I was like, look, we're going to get a park grant.

on this waterfront. And yeah, and eventually we did. That little $10,000 seed grant, I mean, was leveraged like many, many times over. It became a $3 million park, you know, a good seven years later, but it made these beautiful little baby steps along the way. You know, I made friends with

everybody that I could. Like, I just didn't, you know, I was older at the time, so I didn't really know who I wasn't supposed to talk to. I made friends with businesses. I made friends with government agencies. I was like, look, I don't care who you are. Can you help us do this? But it was a beautiful moment, you know, to see how that crazy little dump transformed into the absolute, it's a now a national award winning park. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty cool.

It's amazing how it's like there are certain stories that recur in myth and in cycles. And your story of going into this forgotten area and finding the place where the park should be on the waterfront is so similar to the story of Moses when he was young, when he was still doing good things, going into the lands of Long Island and finding these places that people had either forgotten or not known about. It seems like is the secret.

to be on the ground, to really be looking at a place and really knowing it from the ground up to find ways to create things like that for people? Yeah, I mean, you gotta be exploring. Although that was, for me, you know, reading The Power Broker and realizing that Robert Moses actually started off kind of cool. It was just like... It's the tragedy of it. Like, what? Wait, I did that? Like, no! I don't want to! No!

It's amazing because it's like he went out and found the world that was kind of carved up by the Long Island robber barons and reclaimed it. And you found the world that he carved up. And so someday in the future, I guess the world you've left behind, someone else will find some amazing spot in it. This is true. You know what? And maybe they will. Or maybe they'll improve it. That's the way I'm going to try to think of it.

They're going to make it better. You'll make it good and they'll make it even better. Exactly. Exactly. You won't take that heel turn that Moses takes. Yeah, because that would be painful. But you do have to be on the ground. Like how else are you going to see what folks need? And the talking to people I find, you know, is something that often goes wrong.

I don't know, I may be undervalued in some ways. Like, like, like I think of journalists who are, you know, can be deeply embedded, you know, when they are like, yeah, I'm deep embedded or however that, that phrase is. And, you know, and I do think that on some level we do have to do that. It's not, you don't always have to do it in order to see what a community needs, but I do think it's super important.

for there to be opportunities for folks, you know, within those communities to also be the leaders in terms of how their neighborhoods are developing. And I feel like that is often something that, you know, especially in the kind of neighborhoods that I work in, where that's not always considered like a viable path for folks. But I'm really grateful that I had a chance to, you know, express that, that need, I think, for

creation, you know, of our own future. And I'm super excited that there are other folks following, you know, behind me who also feel like they can do it too. Yeah.

I mean, Robert Moses was completely disinterested in the opinions of people in the neighborhood about what he was doing. But also, but one of his other virtues beyond the sort of the beginning stages of him chomping through and exploring places was he had this ability to see beyond what was there into imagine, imagine a future, imagine something.

And you write about this in your book, that this is a key element to being a part of your neighborhood, revitalizing the neighborhood, of seeing beyond what is there. So could you talk about that a little bit? Yeah. I mean, you know, I think early on when folks would ask me that question,

I would think that it was mostly, you know, just because like I was, I was a creative and you know, I was, I was an artist. And so that's like part of being an artist. Like you literally look at a blank canvas or, you know, a piece of sheet music or the, you know, a floor that you're going to dance on or whatever. And then you're like, imagine something different flowering up in there. But now the way that I see that is more about people feeling as though they actually have the right art.

to create. And I realized that that idea and just that feeling is often not in communities like the ones that I feel have been most impacted by Robert Moses' work. Because, you know, we've, so many of us have been, have spent, and the communities really have been designed by others, you know, through the lens of, you know, systemic racism and on all of that, that

I think it beats the hell out of people and just feeling like it's just enough to survive, you know, in some ways rather than to try to do much more of anything else. And so I really do, I consider it, you know, a privilege, you know, that I've been able to do the work that I've done. But I also feel that it's a right that folks can express. But I think there's far too many people who feel as though that that work

is actually belongs to be the work of someone else and not necessarily folks within our communities.

Yeah, I can totally I can see that like as agency is robbed of you of when a highway is put in or a river is straightened. There must be just this moment where I mean, even you who, you know, went to school at all these like, you know, ways that you were empowered or must have thought, well, can I do something at this park? I mean, am I allowed to? You know, like there must have been just a period of time where you just had to get over your old mental roadblocks to get to the point where. Yeah.

And it was those mental roadblocks that I had to get over. But it only came through the knowledge that like, no, these communities were designed to be this way. Which means they could be designed another way. That's right. That's all. And that was one of the most liberating moments of my entire life. When I felt that I...

didn't necessarily have to ask permission, you know, to try to do something, you know, and I remember first hearing,

just literally those words from a mentor of mine who also like totally did whatever she could to sort of smack Moses around as well. Her name was, yeah, her name was Yolanda Garcia and she was second generation Puerto Rican woman from Melrose, which is a neighborhood nearby in the South Bronx. And her family owned this furniture store and, you know, had for a generation. And she,

She was still running it. And then the city was decided to do urban renewal and they were just, you know, she and there weren't that many people left. I mean, that neighborhood was just as badly damaged through the fires as ours was. And her neighbors were just like, no, we're not leaving. We're going to work and we're going to create the plan ourselves. And.

She and her neighbor started an organization called We Stay or Nos Quedamos, which is that we stay in Spanish. And it was, you know, they spent a decade, you know, working on developing a plan for that area. And, you know, with homeownership and just some really beautiful, you know, features that really made you go like, OK, yeah, I see what you're doing. But unfortunately, Yolanda didn't survive. She didn't. She literally died at her desk.

She was younger than I am now. She was in her early mid-50s. And she didn't get to see the construction of her work, in part because she wasn't really taking care of herself, which was also, I think, a part of that lack of agency. She suffered from a lot of the conditions, the health conditions that many folks in the South Bronx do, which I also think stems from people feeling as though they...

care that there is more of a self-esteem issue. It's kind of like, this is what's happens, you know, real diabetes is something that just like happens to people, you know, in our community. And maybe I can do something, but there's the stress of just living life as a person of color and we feel it all. And yeah, it's still,

That still haunts me, but I feel like I get a chance to, hearing her remind me that I did and do have an opportunity and a right to create the kind of things in our communities, whether or not there are people telling us that we don't deserve them or need them or anything like that. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, there are a lot of qualities to Robert Moses's mind, which represent cardinal sins and why he shouldn't have been the person in charge of all these things. But one of them is his overall mission in these roads was to move people through and out of places. That's what these things were for, you know. And I think that that focus, you know, creates the condition that

That you talk about a lot in your book and you do a lot in your work, which is this idea that you're kind of incentivized if you do well, your goal is to leave. Yes. And, you know, you have this quote that's on the Smithsonian Museum of African-American History, which is nobody should have to move out of their neighborhood to live in a better one.

I can guarantee you that this is not a central tenant of Moses. This is the central tenant of yours. No, definitely not. So what does that mean? Like when the master planner of New York is all about moving people through these places and not about being in these places. Yeah.

I mean, the parks you could talk about, but those parks were distributed unfairly. So clearly. But, you know, what is it when you think about development that's responsible, that's responsive and, you know, gives equity back to the people who are actually from there. How do you do that? You know? I mean, you remember what are the things that everybody wants, you know, in a place that makes them feel like,

They don't have to move out of their neighborhood to live in a better one. I mean, it's really simple. People want great places to live, work and play. They want to feel good about how they move through an area. Is it walkable? Is it the kind of place where you feel like you're it's,

happy to spend your money and feel like you're getting quality for it, as opposed to feeling like, you know, you're getting reamed in some awful way. And, and it's just like, not a pleasant experience for you, whether it's where you're living or where you're working or what you, where you're shopping. And I feel like that is, people feel that that's,

in particular for poor people and poor people of color. And I, I've seen it all over, you know, the, the, the country. I, we tend to use a phrase instead of just like poor disadvantage. Those, the same, those communities are, we call them low status because we're,

low status really, without including race or economic status. But it's clear that those are the places where inequality is assumed by people both inside and outside the neighborhood, and it shows up statistically. And they could be areas as diverse as inner cities or Native American reservations, or even poor white towns where there once was industry, but it's long gone and

Now those places remind you statistically of inner cities. And so we know that that happens as well. Low status communities are the places where young people that grow up in them are taught to measure success by how far they get away from those areas. And that is...

the places where we should be thinking about how do we make it so that the experience of anyone going through them, literally, on a daily, just how does it make them feel and what do we need to do in order to make it seem as though we can create more economic, environmental, and social wellness in those areas by making a really local and living economy on all those fronts.

And I believe you can do that because, you know, people in low status communities like the same daggone things that everybody else does. You know, I mean, it's just like we want a cool place to live. We want to feel safe. We want to have the opportunity, you know, to make a living and have a clean, beautiful place, a decent place to live. And, yeah.

that's it pretty kind of much all there is i mean so why do we feel as though that somehow or another that's only you can only get that you're only good enough when you can get that but obviously you can't do that in these in low status neighborhoods that's just not going to work because there's something fundamentally wrong with them and i feel as though people really on some level believe it and that's what we're struggling with so no robert moses probably no i i i

He would disagree with me on the fact that there are some places that are good. Yeah. No, he would. No, but it's true. There's a – it's so much of the book that what Robert Carroll writes about is about choices, the choices that people making these decisions make and how none of them are natural. Like you said, things were designed this way. It was a choice that was being made and that Robert Moses was kind of choosing which people deserve nice things and which people do not deserve nice things. Right.

how do you think...

you go about showing people that even that choice that some people deserve them and some don't, that's a choice about not treating people equally and kind of creating high status or low status neighborhoods. How do you think you go about, it seems like you're saying such a fundamental mindset. How do you go about shifting that in the people it needs to be shifted in? Oh, I mean, and this is where I do think being a somewhat creative person helped me because it was really easy for me to,

Just know, oh, the problem is, is that people don't feel like there are choices, you know, but what if we made choices for people to choose between something? Like, so that's why, you know, actually working to build to be a project based developer for me was such an easy kind of.

push. Because I knew that if we, if all we did was talk about how things could be better, first of all, it just gets boring. And it just people gives people reasons to be like, well, it's not happening here. So let's move somewhere else. So that's why it was like, okay, if we can literally change the landscape for folks to see something different, but it's still in their neighborhood, maybe they could see that, you know what, maybe things can change here.

And that could be just enough of a push for them to just sort of question, you know, why do things happen the way that they do now? And maybe things could be different. And so for me, so the artist in me was just like, oh, yeah. And it was that was much more exciting than that.

just talking about a change that could eventually happen somewhere, um, as opposed to just working to create it there. And, um, and it was super fun because I, it, what also was, was what I, one of the, one of the many things I like about me, but in particular, what I like about me in this, in this arena, no, it's true. But, um,

You know, I don't know. I have this really crazy sense that I could celebrate the small victories. Like I can see like the tiniest little thing and know that things have changed. And then you make a big deal out of it so that folks go know that something just happened because people don't always see those little things as the changes that they are, or even as anything, because they're just so used to like not even seeing anything.

That it's kind of sometimes they don't even pay attention. So you have to give that you make a celebration out of it. So folks will go like, oh, wait, something did just change. That wasn't like this before. And so even with that little crazy park. Yeah, it was a dump when it started.

People remember that, believe me. So we had after the many different cleanups that we did, you know, we started doing things like hosting, you know, canoe rides out there. Literally, it was just really simple just to like remind people like, oh, no, no, no. We do have this amazing natural asset that can actually be fun.

And things like that just like blew people's minds because it was just like, wait a second. But we still had to like show them and celebrate those kinds of things. I'll never forget the first like, you know, big event that we had down there and we had canoe rides. We had like the senior citizen center who did like this beautiful, you know, Latin dance come out. I mean, you know, we had a DJ. We had the best time. And it was just like, it was almost as if

we'd like we might as well have just like invited people to mars because people just could not believe this was happening in their own neighborhood it was just a beautiful beautiful thing but then fast forward to five years later when we actually had the opening for the park and it was after a three million dollar um insertion and the next thing you know we had this beautiful thing where um

you know, gorgeous park, won national awards. And people were like, it's wait, that's in our neighborhood. Yeah. Like, is it for us? Yeah. Is it for us? And I feel like that's the kind, that was such a telling moment to me that here we had all worked so hard to show that something like this was, was wanted and needed in our neighborhood. And then we get literally like,

All the bells and whistles. It is just spectacular. And there were folks who were kind of like reticent to even walk in it. Like it was sort of cute when it was sort of like a, you know, a DIY version of a park, but, you know, with wood chips. And, you know, we had a, we literally had a sprinkler from Home Depot, which was our like a water feature. It was hysterical, but it was nice.

was nice i mean people liked it but but the other piece again that was the part it was a psychological break that people were just because i'm like that just does not compute because we're used to our neighborhoods being a certain way yeah and expect it like that yeah um

And now there's all these sort of official kind of design cues that these are places that you're not supposed to be in. Not supposed to be. Yes. And I was just like, wait a second. You were just here. Yeah. Before we went under construction, like this was your park. And now because it's nice, it's not. That's fascinating. Yeah.

Yeah, we got to work on that. That's tragic and fascinating. But that's something that could be that's something that could be worked on for sure. Yeah, totally. We do every day, literally. And it's a process. And the hope, I guess, is that the longer it's there, the more it becomes taken for granted. No, this is ours and we deserve it. Yeah. And we deserve things like this. Right. And it was just like the same on that same token, you know, having highways literally run through your community, separating you from your waterfront. That was normal, too. Yeah. Yeah.

So Robert Moses is so fascinating because it's the big vision that was kind of like, you got to have a big vision. So I can respect that on some level, except how it was so horribly executed. Yeah.

For sure. It feels like what he has in common with what you're doing and what it sounds like is, correct me if I'm wrong, very necessary to any kind of development is imagination. He has to be able to imagine taking the world as it is and changing it. And then it takes a lot of imagination, it sounds like, to look at what he's left behind and say, no, it doesn't have to be this way either. There's a better way beyond that. It seems like such a...

It's such a hard thing for people who live in a world to imagine a different version of that world, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I realized that wasn't really a question. I was just kind of restating what you said already, but I just inserted the word imagination into it. But I love the fact that you did because it does require that. And what happens when your imagination, you know, is stunted in some way. And I think, unfortunately, many people, you know, in New York City,

felt that in a really big way. Um, you know, because the neighborhood and just kind of all neighborhoods have so much imposed on them from outside forces, development from outside forces, things done to your community that you have no say in, or you have limited say in, um, as you do these things with the, with your neighborhood in mind to make it better for the people in it, including you who grew up there, um, you have managed, uh,

a bit of skepticism from people who are used to the old way of doing things and that making things nicer means it's no longer for them. And then that means they no longer own it, that, that it's, you know, taking, it's been taken from them in this sort of like, you know, kind of rapaciousness and a sort of con that sort of,

robs the value of a place. Um, how do you, how do you navigate that and sort of get, you know, things better without, without losing people in the process and making them understand that they're not being left behind. They're being included. I love how you refer to, um,

The skepticism, rather, most people would call it my haters. I call them my fan club, the majority fan club, because I really do think that they kind of have a little crush on me, actually. It's just like they can't spend that much time thinking about me. And it's just like put so much effort into it. But there's also, you know, but yes, there is actual like real iteration, too. But, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Can you can you just just so people kind of understand that?

the premise here, I don't, it's, it's difficult. I know for you to represent their point of view, but, but like what, what are they hating on exactly? Like to, you know, for people who just don't know any of this situation. Oh man, Lordy, Miss Claudia, it, it, it truly doesn't make that much sense to me because, but, but from what I understand, many believe that any development is, is,

oppositional to the development of the community in a good way. And so when I started calling myself a real estate developer or wanting to work with understanding how the way local economic development could work, that could be in service of supporting our communities. It was just like, you gotta be kidding me.

It's either all about building only affordable housing or, you know, urban gardening. It just can't be. And anything that's different from what is sort of like the predetermined notions of how we're supposed to be was just considered anathema to the spirit of community development. And I just felt and still do feel that we have...

the ability for our communities to generate and retain wealth, which was literally denied to, you know, starting with Black folks and other ones fell right behind. But we're still at the bottom of the heap, Black people. Yeah.

It seemed to me that that was one of the reasons why we needed to be thinking about wealth creation, wealth retention within our communities and doing it in a way that actually supported us first. So that's why we focus a lot on homeownership, local business development, and really thinking through that, through how we don't have to always be the recipients of someone else's largesse because we're

That really hasn't worked out for us. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just saying. Totally. And that's the thing that's like you write about this in this kind of like sense that if you interview all these well-meaning people, they go, well, we want affordable housing options. We want community centers. We want urban gardens like you mentioned. And then when you talk to people who really live there, they're just like, I just really want a good place to get a cup of coffee.

Yeah. Good place to get a cup of coffee. Nice place to shop, you know, places that feel good and safe and fun and fun. And, and the, the, the story that got them to that point of skepticism and criticism and sort of knee jerk reaction is also the world that Robert Moses created. You're like when, uh,

Everything is about someone else's, that's somebody else's resource to exploit. You learn that behavior too, you know? Amen. Yeah. Well, we're just about out of time, but I just had a pleasure talking with you. And thank you so much for being on the 99% Invisible Breakdown on the Power Broker. We had a great time.

I am so excited. I can't believe I'm on this. Thank you so much for having me. It's just it's an honor. It really, really is. Next month, we're going to finish part six. Finally, it's a very long part and start part seven called The Loss of Power. See, we told you there'd be some come up and soon. Don't worry. The arc of history is long, but it bends towards Robert Moses forever.

eventually not tearing people's homes down. We'll be covering chapters 39 through 41. That's pages 895 through 983. And if you just cannot wait that long to hear my voice talking about something and interrupting people when they're trying to talk, then please turn to my other podcast, The Flophouse on the Maximum Fun Network. Remember,

You can still buy live stream tickets to our talk with Robert Caro that's coming up on Monday, October 7th. Find them at nyhistory.org slash programs. And be sure to check out our amazing Power Broker merch at 9mpi.org slash store. I've been wearing my Power Broker t-shirt all the time on my walks with my dog, and I'm still waiting for someone to come up and say hi to me.

The 99% Invisible breakdown of The Power Broker is produced by Isabel Angel, edited by Committee, music by Swan Real, mixed by Dara Hirsch. 99% Invisible's executive producer is Kathy Tu. Our senior editor is Delaney Hall. Kurt Kolstad is the digital director. The rest of the team includes Chris Berube, Jason DeLeon, Emmett Fitzgerald, Gabriela Gladney, Martine Gonzalez, Christopher Johnson, Vivian Leigh, Lashima Dawn, Jacob Maldonado-Medina, Kelly Prime, Joe Rosenberg, Nina Potok,

And me, Roman Mars. The 99% Invisible logo was created by Stephan Lawrence. The art for this series was created by Aaron Nestor. We are part of the Stitcher and SiriusXM podcast family, now headquartered six blocks north in the Pandora building in beautiful Uptown, Oakland, California.

You can find the show on all the usual social media sites as well as our own Discord server where there are fun discussions with 5,000 other beautiful nerds about the power broker, about architecture, about movies, about music, about podcasts you should be listening to. That's where I'm hanging out most of these days. You can find a link to that Discord server as well as every past episode of 99PI at 99pi.org. There is a Mr. Softy ice cream truck outside my window. Can you hear that? Ha ha ha ha ha.

It's really loud up here. So I can't hear it. But if it shows up on the on the recording, that's that's real Bronx atmosphere. That's that. That proves it. OK, there you go. Mr. Softy, you know, right there. It is a part of the zeitgeist here.

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