Metaphor, Dragon Age, and What Makes a Great RPG Party
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Okay, i've got balloons and streamers and curtis free drinks, and Jason's got the cake or set for party time. Welcome to triple click where we bring the games to you. This week we talk about parties in role playing games. It's the other kind of party where there is an on sambo cast united by a common goal, or maybe there not united may keep swinging or dating or dating you. I'm my mires.

i'm Jason share .

and i'm kr camels .

and hello hello, it's my friends. But we are recorded this on election day. By the time this goes out, maybe there will be some clarity.

And what has happened today, maybe the we don't recording this hours before polls close. So it's an interesting happened. We don't know about IT.

We are in the past. Yes, right now we've all voted, of course, early. I hope.

I guess I just made a big assumption here. We all voted right. Everyone decided I okay, good. I think it's a good idea.

Vote in poor and pretty interesting. This year, we've got ranked choice. We got a hole into people running.

We like overhaul our government. Last you got ranked choice. That's amazing.

Massachuset gestern choice two years ago, and i'm still mad about IT, but this year we had some pretty good ballot questions. But you know why I don't need to get into that? You know what I do need to get into?

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We play video game.

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You do like a rank choice. Vote for something we should. If we did, we would. We would do rank .

choice if we ever do. Invite the listeners to out on something only people who are remembers look at rank choice and everyone else will just get regular voter. I don't know, we might worked up this idea of the air.

Jason came up with this. I'm just, yes, ending IT. Uh, but that's enough of that.

That's enough talking about maxim. One dollar ash, join you. You already know. You know, the drill listeners. What are we going to talk about as our hot topic today? Kk.

we are gonna k about RPG s about roping games and more specifically about RPG parties, and less specifically, kind of just about the RPG of twenty twenty four. We are kind of in the midst of dragon age veiga discussion. We talked about the last week where the two of you had played, but I had not yet played. I know have the game and have been playing IT. And I think we're going to do a dedicated episodes about that game and what we think of IT and dragon age and all of that next week.

But this week, we're kind of I did know we're in a little bit of a middle ground and it's this game and a lot of the games we've been playing like we have got me thinking about parties in particular, like the group of heroes that you assemble in a game, and how they can be used to tell stories and how they can make a game more interesting or more confusing, how they can kind of help or hinder, uh, a video game story. And this year we've had so many amazing world playing games. And even beyond, like the RPG category, we just had so many games with great groups of characters, all kind of working together to the story that I thought that might be something fun to talk about, to look at the chances in the similarities.

in the way that all of these games are set up. My favorite ARP g party is at the beginning of fall out three, when it's birthday candles.

As I was going to specify that I think the best R V G party is the one of the end of act one of borders gate three. That's a very fun for .

everybody. Like if we had just come prepared with a city .

parties in R P.

we could talk about massive c cid. al. There's a really good party actually in the dragon age trust pasir d lc.

Both of those d lc. Have very memorable parties, so we can talk about them. And actually that kind of a party is a good showcase. Four of the party that you've built, like both of those games, like those are both celebrations of more than anything else, their celebrations of the the party members is in your relationships with them since that's kind of the beating heart both of those series.

And you know we'll get into a vae guard as well since there is a whole new party of of adventures and heroes and anti heroes and that game. So yeah, I don't know till list a few games that i'm thinking about here. There is, of course, final fancy seven rebirth.

There is like a dragon, infinite wealth, which i've played. I don't think that the two of you have played, but has certainly one of the most interesting and enduring a bans of miscreants ever assembled a video game. There's dragon's dogma, which I really love. Takes a very different approach to NPC and party creation.

There is paper mario of a thousand year door, which chase and I believe this most familiar with, but also has a kind of interesting party, persona 3 reload， which I only played a bit of, but I played almost all of persona three in a very familiar with that kind of persona. Approached to party building, which is shared, of course, by metaphor, refers tassie, which we just played and talked about, and I believe almost jnet you're not quite done, but all three of us almost finished that in. And then now there is dragon age, the vague guard, which, yet again, another bioware game with a big group of heroes. And then that's not to mention tactical, what I actually think is like the best party based game of the year and the best party story of the year, for sure. Yeah, it's not a role .

playing .

game and it's sort of a different approach. But I think that would be an interesting point of comparison. So all of these different games take a different approach to, like ensemble based storytelling. And I thought that could be kind of erode in.

So I guess to start with, can I just say that I am enjoying drag names of veiled? I think some people are probably curious about that, right, since I SAT out last week's conversation. Um I think it's pretty fun.

It's what are you? What class did you pay?

I'm playing as a rogue up to where I have every party member. And IT sort of finally feels like on RPG, like just going out into the world and it's unlock king bigger and bigger parts of the map. And i'm expLoring in finding sideways sts and doing going on data with people that kind of remind me of marvels, midnight suns, where you just hanging out yeah and you like, go help someone train in a new magical power they've got you get to like chat a little bit about their .

back to whatever. Why do you have to wait that lung for IT to become B G. Like I haven't because I just don't want to play anymore because .

it's not an you know I think I know why that is. I have a theory anyways. And I think it's because they consciously designed the game this way after dragon age inquisition LED so many people to get stuck in the hinterlands just doing empty sid quest. I think that they structure the game to deliberately kind of push you through like a series of canals, you just like wrapped through the whole introduct react. And it's kind of a long time because it's a big game in his later characters. I think that i'm guessing that, that was on purpose, that they wanted you to get to know everybody, to kind of see all the different regions that you're going to go explore, to meet all the factions and then to start enticing you out into the world and they kind of even unlock different parts of the world like more and more as you go to keep from overwhelming you with like a huge open world space that you can then spend the next twenty hours just wondering around doing kind of empty sideways sts. There's also the fact that the are like much more structured and narrative in this game as far I can tell all of them are like there's no quest that are just like go collect for of the some little .

story or something connected usually to a specific NPC and what they want to do yeah, that's what I found.

That's my sense of wild structure. That way, I think will probably talk more next week about whether that works. I could see playing and and thinking, og, this is just a totally lining AR like got of war lake in.

But now that i'm playing IT like where I am, IT actually feels a lot more like inquisition. There's like big open areas and expLoring and like solving environmental puzzles, looking, finding little explanation points on the map or on my goes. Someone's got a map, a quester where they'll go check in out classic.

And one of the classic o IT just takes ten hours before IT gets good game.

It's not the only game on this list. Where that could our you be? I wouldn't really say that IT .

takes that long to get good. I was having plenty of fun in the first ten IT. Just I was like, I don't think this is what this game is going to be like for its entire run.

And that turned out to be true. So anyways, yeah, let's look at all of these games. Let's let's zoom out a little bit on the year in RPG. I'm just sort of curious if either the two view has any thoughts on this idea on the the groups of characters that you have accompanied on these various adventures over the course of the year?

Yeah, I so i've been thinking a lot about metaphor because that's the game i've been playing the most over the last few weeks. And i've been thinking about like, what makes that games party cool? What makes IT not cool, what makes the games party interesting, is that, like a specific chemistry of the characters, is that the individual characters themselves, are they kind of stronger together than like, than the sum of their parts.

And in this games case, I think they are because none of the characteristics in metaphor on their own are particularly like, I don't know, memorable on the level of buried and final fantasy or whatever, some other kind of iconic video game character. But that sound to say they're bad. I mean, he has, I .

say, the one who hok burg is also .

kind of a break out like just with her weird obsession with ugly food. And so SHE has SHE has a fandom.

It's cute yeah I mean something the corks are pretty fine um but I also I think that together they work really well. Part of IT is visually they just make such a like um such a painting, such a kind of like vivid display of different sizes and looks and characteristic in a way that is really striking kind of a fun contrast of final fancy seven rebirth where the party looks really weird together because baron is not like talking yeah it's like it's so everyone is so disproportional is so off um they all they look like Better looks like he came from a different game then like cloud and tef a where's in metaphor IT really IT feels like you're looking at this beautiful striking painting every time you see the of them just kind of group together um or in a portion or whatever um and they play a lot with those still settings that you go to and you see all of the image and it's really, really good a lot of cool looks um but also I think part of IT is just seeing the banter between them like hokey burgs um that personality to imagine Carry about her like being in love with this nasty food IT is played off by the other characters really.

Really well and so like someone like straw who is otherwise just kind of like whatever, IT doesn't really have too much of a personality. Um I think watching him interacted with talking work is really fun in the same way that watching reusable in percent of five interact with some of the other characters is a lot more fun than just like dealing with refugee on his own. The everything is that metaphor is really good at and creating not sad quest, but like these kind of follower like sequences, story sequences and telling each character story and really cool way through that that actually because each of those each of like the social links that you do with them is so much lower impact than doing a whole last side quest would be. Um I think that IT gives you a lot more story and a lot more chance to develop relationship with them and learn their person, learn about their personalities um in more of a rapid fire, more of kind of a traditional story telling me the way you might see in a book or a movie where it's not broken up by like an hour of go hunting, going hunting for monsters in between at all and so that helps to help of the characters, I think, in a cool place so yeah, I mean, I think that at least part of I I think metaphors, characters are really strange.

uh, resonating with me. Yeah I I would agree, but I do think that some of these other examples are in the sense that I ve remember in the past when we were talking about final finish seven birth, the main thing we talked about was the banter.

And thinking back on this topic this week, I was really remembering that and how much I loved that part of the game, maybe more than any other part of the game, was just the the hang out sensation of having a party of characters who are wandering around with you and like having a good like one of the questions that you you have in our outline, curt, is what are the different ways the game relates the party members to the main character? And in metaphor, I don't think the main characters particularly interesting. They're kind of a safer and you don't really I mean, I don't really have a big relationship with him as a person, but he's just a facilitator or almost for all these other goofy dynamics that happened around him.

And cloud is very similar in part because he's just so traumatized and emotionally closed off that he's not going to engage willingly with almost any conversation so you can just throw him into any social scenario and IT will automatically be funny or awkward or have tension or conflict just because you have this character who is closed off and all these other people bouncing off of him and trying to get him to react to things or figure out who he really is. And that, I think, just automatically creates an interesting story with a character who would otherwise be extremely boring. Like if you replying, the entire game is cloud or is the main character in metaphor and you didn't have anybody with you like I can't even imagine how boring that would be. That would be like you would have so much trouble caring about that.

That I Carry is called jagged quest and IT rules.

Okay, fair enough. I haven't played those game, so maybe he does rule, but I would definitely be a really different vibe and longer I think and maybe kind of sad and not not kind of the mad cap hang out scenario, that final fantasy seven and metaphor both really have and i'm hoping dragon in as as I as I go .

on yeah an thing with RPG that have a main character. It's it's an issue that other types of ensemble story telling don't have. And not all video games with ensemble casts have this problem because not all ensemble video games have a main character.

true. That's actually something I think is interesting about tactical breach wizard is there is not a main character of that game. You start playing as an and what's your name and your name? jane? Thank you.

You start playing as jane and jane, and they kind of feel like you know them closest thing, the point of view characters, but really everyone's an equal part protagonist. And you're just kind of controlling slightly the flow of conversation. And then in the end, you can have these next epo gues, where you decide how everybody ends up.

And like that actually makes for a more organic kind of a ensemble story because it's not the story of any one person i've been like I mentioned last week, i've been watching the legend of vox smokin a, which is uh the critical overall T V show. And that show is very similar to dragon age and also to triple quests, which I think we should also mention. Here is one of the airports twenty twenty four.

So since this is a game, yes, is and and IT involved us coming up with the party. And IT is also an ensemble story. And it's from these video games because there is not a main character. I mean.

arguably luthor is the man character.

There's another version of that story that's just love the story that that would .

be very entertain the rose cranze guilty certain quest.

But no one of us is the main character. So IT made for an it's like easier to tell a story that kind of goes in a variety of different ways. And that's certainly true in something like A T V show, like, you know, game of thrones or the legend of ox mark and anything like something with a big bowling cast.

There isn't really a main character like someone may get the focus for given episode, but that just allows for a more dynamic storytelling approach. And I find that video games really do run into the protagonist problem. As i've been thinking about this, I think that metafor and f seven and personal three, i'll have this similar issue where there are nice moments between cast members like this, nice banter, and there's a good sense of their community like how they relate to another, especially nf f seven rebirth.

I'm thinking specifically of tif a and aris kind of hanging out and becoming friends and the lead that their relationship has been fleshed out the best yeah, it's really nice. But for the most part, the games kind of do revolve on the main character. That's something that I really noticed with metaphor.

Well, like characters have these surface level reactions to one another, but IT isn't that often that they're sitting down and really talking or getting to know one another in the way that they might be able to if they didn't always relate back to the main character like each of those have been. Yet each of those character of vineet and metaphor is like you and that character. And so they're just like telling you their story and then reflecting and you kind of learn more about them and then you maybe say one or two things to them and then IT moves on.

But it's like they're all very kind of atomized. There's not really this sense of like everyone sitting around talking. And while you know there are seems like where you're having dinner after you go out and adventure, I really like that.

Go back and you set and have dinner. I really wish there was a little more to those scenes. There's always this like if you have like an unfinished quester something it'll give you a dialogue topic option. Do you know i'm talking about we are at the table and every once in a blue moon you can like pick a thing and then you'll actually talk about IT. I wish there was kind of more than there was just more color because in that can I do wish there was more of a sense of the community of characters and how they were .

late to one another. So okay, let's stuck about the protagonist for a second because I think the games that we've but pinpointing the two have the protagonist and not the ensemble uh, cast, uh, have this kind of this array of different types of protagonist metaphor you have essentially asylum protagonists mean, technically he talks, but he's basically like matty said, he is a safer story, doesn't like brother, he was silent.

I mean, basically they only give them a voice because he was awkward and personal of five that he didn't say anythin' and now is a voice but it's basically the same charter. Is your percent of five charter or is not a charter? So protecting the one extreme? And then one of them to see seven birth cloud might be a little animated, but he's a character staying up like he's a fool, flat character.

And then in middle you have dragoned. The vale guard and something that I don't like about dragon age, the vel guard is that I think and i've seen a lot of people point this out, we've gotten much further in the game than I did. So I don't think this change is very much. Um you you are kind of presented with this idea of this character who you shape his personality the same as you doing in other bioware games and you do that by picking dialog options and choosing what kind of character you want you going to look that's your nickname to be.

Um and I think one of the problems in veal guard is that the all the options all just kind of lead to the same place, which is that they all just kind of like positive leadership like this study who is just not really roughing any feathers is really just kind of always saying the right thing kind of captured in amErica is and his in his dialogue and I think that like if you're going to take that approach, I think that's the hardest approached to master much, much harder than some the protagonist, also much harder than full fledge character, protagonist like a cloud or cradock, whatever. If you're going to take the choose your own adventure, customized your protagonist, pick whatever way you want a approach, you have to do IT Better than I think, well, guard does and previous firework games did that. They created, they allowed youtube to role play your character, and also a different ways.

And bounders gave three in contrast, which is, uh, unfortunately, in contrast to have to be quite a lot when you're talking about the rolling elements of dragon for about to get three lets you play around of the character in so many different directions that can get a little ridiculous, so many different options you have. Um and I think that like when you're interacting with your party and to when a good when you're like you want that banter and and when you're kind of evaluating your emotional relationships with your characters and your party members, I think you're be part of that when you do have that customizable hero is seeing what kind of like options you can explore and what kind of reactions you can get out of them. And yeah I mean, it's IT was unfortunate to kind of feel like dragon age wasn't giving you that many choices in that regard.

Yeah I don't know that I agree that other dragon age games they are bad either, but I totally .

agree about bothers yeah I didn't necessarily. But I previous much Better. You play as the kind of the bad guy.

And then even before that, I mean, builders gate two and one, which do not forget, we're ballot, will buy our game. They both let you go full on evil. Like to the point, where are you making major decisions in really evil nai ways?

Yeah I mean, I haven't played those with pology three. I completely agree. Like that's a new standard of tagged ist customization. And like the entire dark age plot line, existing is incredible and fascinating and is like an entirely different game within the game where like everything plays out differently. And the fact that there is so much content you don't see, I mean, we have talked about this before.

But like when you introduce all these additional Prices that actually change the sequence of events, you're creating things that many players won't see and that only certain players will. And I would say val guard kind of follows in the footsteps of previous dragon age games in the sense that IT doesn't change everything like you. You can make this slightly different personality based comments in conversation, but it's not like the plot is gonna wildly change. However, I mean, I think there might be some bigger changes near the end of the game, but IT, that just isn't really the style.

Yeah, i'm not even necessarily talking about choices of changing. I'm talking about choices in how you can interact with your party because if you're going to create this system where the hero is this customizable version of yourself, you kind of expect to be able to have certain levels, chemistry or lack there of with your party.

And I think it's again, it's a tough thing to pull off but in something like valders gave three where you can really you could be making choices. You can allow one of your party members to kill another can choose whether to like ah let someone suck your blood every night and just can go about I mean, making these traces is a big part of what makes a party cool or not cool is getting to interact with them and play with them. And really, I mean, that's what distinguishes all playing games from, I don't know, watching a movie about like a high smoke, hear something like that .

yeah and they feel more like people.

So leaving vae guard aside a little bit, I am not totally sure how the dynamics are onna play out of. Even then i'm enjoying getting to know the characters and uh you know going on dates with them actually think that the interpreter banter is also cool like each character seems to have uh you know one sort of conversation path that they go down with each other potential party member and it's neat.

They're all specific and you wouldn't necessarily see them all on the party that you're playing with. And I i've enjoyed that. That's actually given me more insight into the party listening to them talk to one another than any of the conversations i've had with them. One on one. Would you could argue as a failure of the writing?

Bt, it's also a successful the writing because like listening to neve talk to talk about pathetic CS, because tosh has a pathetic horn, never has a prosthetic leg and touches like giving nave advice and it's it's cool like I think like that kind of banter is what I have always liked about bioware games. You know, I don't know that I totally like. I'm thinking of where the protagonist of a veil guard lands related to these other games.

I don't actually think of cloud is a very good main character or a very defined one. He doesn't really have much of a personality and you know he's he's this kind of happiness beautiful gun, who these too much more like viBrant and interesting women are like obsess with him. And that's the mean dynamic. Ic is like the the Betty and feronia and achieve ve meal .

is he's trying to repressed emotions and that comes out and I feel .

like that's a little bit of an easy.

but I mean, that does tell a certain story, right? Yeah, I mean, IT does let you project your cell phone to a charactery.

I don't know if I agreed with the that.

No, I know you don't let me let me lay out how I think of that. I think of cloud is like a less well defined character, maybe because of conscious narrative decisions, but he is kind of a blank slate in a lot of ways. Then the then broke in vail guard, because at least i'm playing with, like the british lady accent, which, by the way, is a really interesting accent.

IT moves around from region to region as, after having just played metaphor, the two cat boys who sound like their from liverpool, they sound like the frequent beatles. Every time they talk, I love their voice at and there very consistently liver pulin, which I believe is how you say, yeah, yeah, it's funny. I'll here a little bit of that in rox accent, but then sometimes i'll hear other actions from other regions and i'm not well versed enough to like, no, I saw someone say, basically rock sounds like someone who grew up in liverpool and then moved sort of a funny read on IT.

Anyways, i've been finding that character to be pretty well defined, like between her look, her voice, the way that SHE performs in some scenes. There's so much, I think, some really great animation in the game. So I I feel like that she's a character like, along with everybody else that I just allowed to kind of imprint on you.

But I want to mention each year ban cassock the protectionist of like a dragon and like a dragon, infinite wealth. This is the game that came out earlier this year because he is the most well defined protection nous of all of these games, and kind of belongs in this conversation about, like, how a protagonist and how a protagonist is written, can change the way that a party feels. Because the entire success of that game, and it's a really successful game.

I've i've gone back to IT recently, have been playing IT again. It's so good. I like IT as much or more than any of the other refugees that I just listed here, at least from what I played of IT.

And it's all down to him. He is an incredible protectionist. He's a really well define in character. He's really well performed, and the whole game just orbits around him in his unstable charisma. He's basically a guy who's can do spirit and belief in redemption and other people drives the entire engine. And everyone in your party, they're all a bunch of former criminals.

Or it's sometimes there are people that you'll meet in the game who totally screw you over and like leading to ambush and like they really mean things to you and they are really horrible, but then you beat them in a fight, you know, and then you get to talking and like they start being like me. And it's just so hard ever since my brother got sick. You know this and that and then each ban is like, oh, well, I totally understand they started talking and pretty suing the guys in your party and then pretty soon you're getting to know him even Better and you realizing like, oh, this guy should have been my friend all along.

And that's kind of the magic of that game, and also a big narrative theme of IT. I think that that game deserves a place in this conversation because IT shows how you can have a very strongly defined protagonist. The game would not work without him, but because he's so well written and because his personality is the thing that, like, centres the orbit of every other character, IT works beautifully for that game, and IT defines .

the games s whole personality. Yeah, I love that is so good.

I wanted play IT now so is that is that game um you just recruiting a ton of different characters. Res, there's there like a defined party of like a certain number of people like out of the party system work exactly.

It's like most RPG where you start with just kind of one friend and then you meet another, know you meet up with, Carry you in hawaii. And he is like, know the former protecting of a bunch of the accused games. And the game is kind of a lot about here.

You you could argue here is the protagonist in that he is revealed prety early on in the game that he's sick and dying, and I don't know yet whether he dies or not. I am so fairly early in the game, but that's like the big revelation is the tighten of the accused series. The protectors of many of the games has cancer.

And like. Doesn't have long to live. And so he in each on our friends and you play as each on but it's kind of curious story, which is another kind of smart way of like giving a lot of emotional have to a different characters than your protection nist. But now as you go to you the game, you just kind of a me, you pick up guys or ladies like you pick up different characters who just joined your party. And it's a really long game like I don't have all the party members yet, but but it's it's structured like I don't know like metaphor, it's structure like A J R P G where you just gradually get more and more party members 嗯 yeah.

it's so good.

you guys it's I mean.

you're kind of describing something that I really wish metaphor had done with its main character. That doesn't happen, but that the characters keep telling you is happening. And I say, this is someone who really enjoyed manager a lot.

Love the game. absolutely. One of my favorites of this year. However, the characters are around. The main characters continually say things like, wow, you're such a great leader i'm so i'm just naturally drawn to you.

I just feel like I I can't help but follow you and just love everything you stand and like I the player i'm like, I don't know what this guy states for. He has a no personality, I don't see White. Many one would be naturally drawn to him in any way and he doesn't say anything in meeting any of these characters.

That seems like you would convince them of that in the way that you're of describing the like a drag and protectionist is doing when he's having a fight with someone or whatever the the situation is wear by, he's meeting the other party members of and convincing them to join him. Yes, like those sounds like they are actual scenes where the characters are, where is in metaphor. It's more like that's happening all on the part of the party members and like they all have complete stories and motivations to join you that are internally consistent and make sense for them and make them feel like more fully realized characters.

And like you get why they would want to join somebody with the political aims, like it's some explicitly like there's election in the game, it's political. Your characters running to become king because there is a democracy. Now I don't know it's why d play metafor, I explain that. Um but why would they back him as a candidate is kind of never explained other than met there is just sort of these unstated good feelings but he is representative of that would probably .

not worth in real life yeah I mean, there are worst motive of people. Well, what often happens what I appreciate about metaphor um among other recent games is that the entire party has a reason for sticking with you to the bitter end even when you're going off and fighting like optional dragon bosses and grinding for experience or whatever like i'm doing now um as I was to you some party base R P G S or sometimes you'll get someone to join you and you'll do that by helping them out with something and we'll have some motivation like go and kill the wizard of the tower and then after you kill the wizard of the tower will be like, oh, you are going to save the world let me come I also want to .

see simply and I yeah .

suddenly i'm going to think with you this entire for the rest of the game no matter what you do. And I I always appreciate IT when a party member has kind of a motivation for actually seeing things through at the end the way and find of an everyone every everyone has their one kind of personal reasons for going after several rough or I don't know, there are a lot of games like that.

And in metaphor, I agree, they all have their personal reasons for wanting to be there and overview the current system of power or question IT like they do well.

get revenge. Yes, many yeah I I agree that of IT IT feels .

a little like they're each doing IT on their own because your main character isn't like meeting them halfway and giving them that extra. Not right. Like I would follow each other ban into Moore itself like that guy is like a leader worth following. And I do think if you can write a leader like that, it's really fun to watch a group of misfits arrange around him, especially because the characters themselves, you know, can be a little more reducent, or can seem a little more like unlikely heroes. But then you can believe IT because you're like, well, if I met you own cast again, he told me to come get in fights the people at the mall with him I would do IT I would be at the all of punching people being like I don't know why this is happening but i'm with this .

time i'm doing whatever he says yeah I mean, it's tough to write a character like that which is why yeah so often and you just have to kind of trust that when they're saying I don't know in percent of five or like the sand games and they're all you, you're a born hero. You're a born leader and they're just like staring at the other doctor. You just have to buy into the illusion. Yes.

it's definitely what makes that came special. And it's something that is is very hard to do in general. I it's like when you're write a book about someone writing an amazing essay.

you then have to write the amazing s my god a another problem.

metafor has her way, the afra he's ready in the greatest piece of music ever, you have actually put IT in their problems .

that everybody run. Well, that's why should just .

run a tribute to the greatest. Exactly, exactly. It's like that game, we all a tribe to the greatest, and like final boss of an RPG ever or something.

And just remember well being in here, but I was the same from the country. Just to tell you, the game is called the remake the end of the greatest RPG of all time. And IT is doesn't have a released date yet, but IT looks pretty cool. You you can watch a trait for steam. I am sure it's on youtube too, right back the show .

being I do want to .

mention dragon and dog mu as one other of that, which is also fascinating. And that's the phone system. So that game goes the entire opposite direction. And they're basically like, you just make whatever like mindless, NPC person out of clay that you want to and broadcast across the multiverse and then pick up other people's broadcast and just make whatever you party you want out of these weird interchange able people, some of whom sounds like that berry from what we do and some of whom don't, and some of whom have like really, really strange voices and look like cats.

And like that game is kind of like also really successful in its way because it's not trying to have interpreted dynamics that are written in the way that veil guard is. You're not going to hear your two pins saying anything meaningful to one. They're gonna repeat .

the same weird s of that.

I love IT though because like it's so particular to that game and IT IT works that actually I have like a real fondness for some of the ponds that I ve had in my party and even the relationships that I sort of imagine between them. Like there's a lot of space for you in that game to just look at this weird character that somebody else made that you lend to your game that sounds like laslo and then just be like OK like I really like this guy. What a character. And I I think that's actually a really cool approach to and it's actually it's really interesting that a game with that approach came out the same year with all these other games that took all these different approaches.

Yeah and also it's a system based approach. It's like you end up believing in and liking your party members based on how well they behave around you in battle. And it's stems.

It's and then you can to project personalities onto them based on that or or sort of the conjuring encourage good feelings in you because they're helping you in a specific way or working together in a specific way, which can be just as effect. Like Jason you were mentioning last week, were talking about drag age, about liking characters because they help to in battle. And like that is such an important part of a party system in the game.

And we haven't really touched on yet and that I was thinking about going into this conversation where I was like, just the fact that the party members have an armen designed to have different abilities than you. And our complimentary to you is something else that just automatically enders you towards them, even if they are also written to be intentionally sort of annoying. Or serbia, that is part of what will make you be like.

But this is my friends group. And like that guy has this other thing. He contributes, and we all put up with them because he .

shoots fire out of his hero. Yes, there is a of characters. J RPG s see this a lot, like in final fy tactics.

This is character who comes later in the game called orlando, who is like, ultra powerful. T like there all these characters have these special skills, and he is like three different characters, special skills all in one. He's like a broken character and part that part of the reason he said like of is because he just destroys everything.

Or like in that brief period in faa phantasy seven, when you play, you get several in your party and you see ultra powerful he is really makes you appreciate character. Yeah that's me that we haven't talked about much is way the game play plays into all this the way that yeah you like you want finding your fave based on like what they can do for you, how good they are um although yeah I mean the procedure generation stuff is just not for me. I can never get into that game.

What was that game called a while back was like procedure narrative, I think was called wilder. Um I can never get into that because like the characters that aren't actually written, I just can never get into um and I can never get in into that kind of story telling A I generate gains will never be for me as a result but a creating your own stories other characters because they're super powerful or super useful. Um I think that can be a very effective technique to like making you really love falling up with the character yeah that's .

something that tactical breach reserved does exceptionally well is tell that story through mechanics. Almost all of the game takes place know in a nice metric view, technical strategy game, but there are these kind of interstitial sequences where you talk and you see the characters talk to one another, because there is no protagonist, the conversations can be any number. Of them talking to one another and you get to choose what different people say, but it's never clear who you're onna get to choose for. So you're really role playing as all of them.

So you just have a conversation .

of yourself well but IT doesn't feel like IT feels like watching these different characters talk to one another, which is kind of like the magic of that game and further, I mean, to that games.

endless benefit. IT just has the best rating .

of any talking yeah it's probably does more with like five lines of ideology than game like metaphor, which again, I like as well can do with like five hours.

People have somehow needs five hours to say .

one a different yle of thing. But IT really is remarkable. So he has that going for IT as well. But I think that like watching the characters do their thing in the game itself is a huge part of understanding them.

And then there are even these like narrative sequences, usually dream sequences, where characters will be having a dream with multiple copies of themselves talking to, like, the future version of themselves who has all of her abilities on, like, and they're have to clear a room together. The future version of you will be like talking shit to your current self about how useless you are. And like they do.

There's a lot of stuff like that as well. I think the x com games x come to most recently are also really great at the kind of mechanical party storytelling things where I always get a persons, definitely you, that one cymer, who pulled you out of the shit three or four times and then died a hero like you kind those stories. And that that really works for me in a way that IT is somewhat procedural, but it's also author by me because i'm the one giving them the commands and playing through the missions. So it's not just like having like a procedural version of IT wouldn't be like having A I tell me a story IT would be like taking a few things that are generated by algorithms and then using them to tell my own stories. And that's a kind of a worthwhile ild distinction, at least that's why why x comm really works for me.

Yeah I agree. I do think it's so different though. I mean, it's it's almost kind of funny you to think of x comm is like an ensemble cai a party this game but IT is I mean, IT is and I like that way of thinking about IT for sure. Yeah, yeah.

It's really kind of an RPG. I think I had that realization when the first one came out. And then I mean, playing through marvel's midnight suns. I actually think that dragon age, the veil guard is very similar marvels, midnight suns in terms of tone, in terms of ensemble story telling the way the protagonist works. What was the protected ist name marvel at night play?

I remember that's how little they matter, honest.

yeah. And it's very it's kind of similar weather.

They are like a player character that kind like.

very important another daughter .

yeah daughter and you have a name anyways and it's sort of similar to rocker or whatever. Where could be anybody .

but you're there to watch other characters fall in love, get fights and like have sheets like you're just also there for a fun story that's unfolding between all these other huge personalities? Weigh hugeous than yours. And I think that can be really effective in a way that metaphor is where it's like you're just kind of don't matter and you're just gonna a fade into the hunter. That's the name, right? Not even an actual carefully.

We couldn't even remember that. Yeah I think that like the sort of middle of the road feeling that rock has in failed guard is just reminds me of that and IT sound of bad thing for me because .

I did love that game. So mame, it's why I does bug me because .

I just don't right. I really like, I really like the night sons and so I kind of find with IT. But yeah, it's a that is a kind of particular flavor of this bioware inflected story telling where now you kind of have this you know middle of the road protagonist, you kind of cruizers has a good va and like good acting and kind of does exciting line reads but isn't like wildly you know it's not jade empire.

It's something as all their biologies where you can like literally exterminate humanity or save everyone. You know you're not making decisions like that really. And as a result, your character doesn't have that level of uh, variability.

And then as a result of that, your relationship with various party members doesn't shift quite as much because it's a little more about just hanging out with them. I'm not sure whether that's worse or Better. IT does seem to be a little a bit more of a modern phenomenon.

yeah. I something else I wanted to get to before we wrap, is this question that you also have here in our outline, cork, which is, is conflict always necessary? And i've kind of realized that for me, IT is I really like IT.

When the party members don't get along, I think that ends up becoming one of my favor, parts of a party base RPG. And I can overshadow any concerns I might have about the main character being boring or uninteresting. And furthermore, I love a kind of friends, or enemies to friends or enemies to lover was kind of vent roke in a party.

Like it's part of why, like the idea that teef and eric could turn out to be friends after all was something that I thought was so great in final fantasy seven, eight births. So surprising to me heading into IT, just sort of assuming that they just be romantic rivals the entire time. And then really surprising me with that all over the course of the game, that kind of plays out almost outside of clouds view, keep capacity to under .

almost Better thing. yeah.

And I love that. And like just having the characters be at odds with each other for any reason ends up allowing for so much more story telling to happen. And if you don't have that, I mean, I cited this is one of my reasons why I think dragon age of vile guards starts too slow.

I just think they should put a way more conflict up top and then that would help. And there is conflict later that I think really does help the game, just to have the party members be fighting with each other and have political disagreements. I mean, that's also what I think makes metaphor reference taio interesting, is that not all the characters agree on everything, but ultimately they are like, well, we're gona work together though, even though they they do have different some different political leanings and different totally different backgrounds and classes and all all these other things. And like, that's great that I think makes for a well rounded party storage wise as well yeah that .

kind of conflict like not liking one another and growing into friendship is an interesting part of F F seven rivers. Because ah the cause T V an area don't dislike each other and then grow to like one another. We just sort of assume they didn't like each other because that was kind of a dynamic in the way that fancy is pitted them against one another. So they just treated, that is kind of their first sect, and then they just jumped right into IT with this refreshing and surprising friendship, kind of right off the bed, which worked because of that metal layer in f seven rebels .

in the original. They kind of, I don't know the hally dislike each other, but they definitely one of them asks, I think tif a asks. So this errors like a youtube, like, 对， like us of a teva, like something like that. So it's kind of implied in the first that they have .

some jealous and they can build on that or answer the question that fans had filled in previously by just assuming they hate each other. Like what's not what you thought just so .

I think that I think that fs was also like kind of flubs a lot of character relationships like that one is an interesting one like they try to do a whole thing was buried in uv where barrett doesn't like uv like they kind of get to like i've .

just forgotten everything. I didn't like the .

game kind of his memory holds for minute, but there's definitely suffered. I am like, oh, are they trying to do a thing here? And I was never really clear. So I think they they didn't nail every single one of those, but that is a really great uh, dynamic to watch play out in a relationship is like no enemies to friends or you know learning to respect one another, meet one another on your own terms or yeah, even Better fall in love.

Yeah, yeah, I really.

really like that kind of thing. Well, it's yeah, I don't know. It's something that we're constantly engaging with these big groups of people, these ensemble dynamics and just thought might be an interesting thing to talk about. Will even they get more into the veil guard next week? And i'm sure we'll reference this conversation and all those other games .

to i'm i'll keep thinking about IT as I as I see more and more party dynamics playing out in vague guards here.

Yeah for sure. This is the captain to a very interesting year in row. Playing games aren't well, let's take a break and then come back for one more thing.

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And we are back for one more thing. We we have two games and Melissa book here. So let's let's do a game book sandwich, when to start, when the games meti.

What is your one more thing? Me books in which delicious? I just say that I finished the main story of metaphor .

reference, easier .

reference to you. I don't know. I producer, you want. I defeated the main story, and I loved IT. And I just wanted to kind of put a cap on my feelings on this game without spoiling IT. And just say, I think this is the first time in my life that i've completed uh, turn based RPG of my own volition without IT having been .

that are being my family.

And I do think that's really notable. And I kept thinking.

did you finish bothers get three?

I did that's true.

But I but I like the kind of .

a different type of thing than this. Like this metaphor is like the type of game that I feel like twenty years ago, matt, I couldn't even imagined playing.

And I J, R, P G is, I mean, but it's just .

not the kind of thing I Normally play. And I feel like IT speaks to how much the combat is really fascinating and chAllenging and like variable for me, but also how much my own taste of change in how i've kind of realized that I actually do like a lot of things about the genre, some of which i've learned by forest things suggest in trial.

I do actually appreciate having to learn this historical things by flames we go to do in final way to see six. But I really love the story of metaphor. And I know I was a little hard on certain parts of IT in the discussion that we just had about the party members.

The main character does not have a personality, but I just I really want to recommend this game just from a story vantage point because I think what is doing is really fascinating and it's surprising. I loved all the different story twist that kind of unfold. There's like a series of different kinds of story twist that happen.

They surprised me. I thought the development of the different tribes in the game, and that, like depictions of bigotry and politics, were really fascinating and nuance in ways that I just never would have expected to see. And I just, I don't know, I really can't recommended enough.

I just had so much more fun with IT and was so much more compelled by IT than I ever expected to be. So if you're a listener and you're like, this really isn't my type of game, I wouldn't I don't think I would like this. Maybe think again because I actually really ended up digg IT.

I know IT starts a little slow, but I just i'm really glad i've finished IT and I really like the characters and IT. I'm just I don't know. I think it's right. I think metaphor is a good video game. So that's what time to say .

about .

that good video game and will definitely so i'm almost finish click.

I think IT would be fun to talk more in detail about some of the the specific quests and and just kind of NPC story lines that unfold as well. It's very cool. And there's the story lines with NPC that aren't in your party, which I think is really need as well that you like unlock like these these kind of social bonds with people who are just kind of on the outskirts of your life and interactions. I think that's a really cool touch as well.

In one minute your dog sitting for a lady. Next minute.

yeah, that wild, good stuff.

cool. Yeah, that'll be a fun.

Beans cast for sure, are right. So that's the bread. Now we get to the the literary.

what is your one more? The j maybe it's a vegetarian and wich.

no, no.

it's a, yeah, it's the turkey in ham. It's one of the .

italian subs like good.

I'm reading a book called the unseen world by liz Moore. Liz Moore wrote got of the woods, which is a popular book that came out earlier this year. And I talked about this is my one more thing a couple months ago, and i'm really listened back by her and it's really, really good. It's really cool book. And so the story the book is it's about this woman a um part of the time she's a woman, part of the time SHE is a twelve year old girl on is about her relationship with her father um who is this query dude, this kind of A A I researcher in the one hundred and eighties who um home schooler by bringing her to his lab every day and is kind of like socially bizarre and is just kind of a strange dude and it's about her relationship with him and how what happens to that when um he starts deteriorating mentally and then he learns that he is the beginning stages of alzheimer's and the new kind we follow the progress of her life and IT sips back and forth between the one thousand nine and eighties when she's twelve and um the kind of late two thousands and when he is in a grown up uh in silent valley because where else um and he also tells the story of the AI program that he was working on with her and her kind of feeding IT with conversations and stuff like that and hey, as IT turns out and this is kind of like the exciting incident inside to speak um as he is determining and has revealed that his entire life was a shame, was a lie and like was not what IT seemed and he has to like simulating ously deal with like his alzheimer and her own kind of like life is like being raised and being placed in school suddenly for the first time ever at the edge of twelve while trying to figure out the secrets of his past and like why he lied about his past and it's really fascinating uh super compelling rate ah she's a phenomenal writer little more and I am really enjoying IT not quite finished ed yet but but almost there and the twisted turns along the way very fun um really enjoying IT really give up the unseen world is called yeah man there's a lot of .

dimensions stories out there right now and I think I find them hard and also kind of healing way that i'm sure a lot of listeners who have a parent with dementia relate to like slow horses did IT a thursday murder club has a really like involved storyline with one of the character's spouses has to mention yeah and it's kind of everywhere IT feels like it's everywhere but anyway that sounds good story .

check IT out yeah IT always resonates like when you when you know someone you're like a struggle would like a family member dealing .

with that sort of thing that is that experience and so to put some bread underneath all that delicious and tasty and and salami. What was IT so will put some some nice go under there, some mustard on IT. My slice of bread is a little slice bread called call of duty .

black ops six that is really bread holding like a beach of machine again. Yeah.

it's actual bread, guys. It's tactical bread. It's got some cava playing and it's ready for action. Yeah, i've been playing i've been playing this game because I sort of people saying that it's pretty good that I got I played it's on, it's on game and play my playing on steam. And when I say i'm playing to get my I mean, i'm playing the single player campaign.

i've heard that's very good and said.

yes, i'm not one for for multi player call of duty. So you'll need to listen to a different podcast to get opinions about whatever how the time to kill has been tweed on them, whatever is a machine. So yeah, i've been playing through this game.

This is it's really funny that this is the sixth black ops game. I don't remember the last one of these that I played. It's spent a long time since I played any color of duty campaign um I skipped all those modern warfare reboots, didn't play there was like, I don't know black ops that was in the future.

If I recalled correctly, most of the black ops games are about the past like they started their kind of vietnam, a called where you like spy, paranoid spy thrillers. And then at one point there was a black of theme that took place in the future. I remember that there was also those around when they did advanced warfare, which thousand with Kevin spacey? There was infinite warfare where they are on the moon with jon snow and a robot. And I played some of that one. But I I remember, I think bouncing of that .

one didn't really like this .

series is insane. There are so many of them.

It's just wild that we're on up to black hops six.

And they're going because .

I think four had the four hashes ks.

instead of the I V technical cook were up to like modern warfare eight.

No, I mean, right. Of course, there have been a million of the color duty games in general, but like black ops as this, like what used to be tracks, like signature series, I guess there is now is on the sixth game, which just time, time is moving along anyways. Yeah, I don't want to barry the lead any further.

This game is really fun. IT reminds me actually of machine games wolf and time games IT has that same kind of rythm and feeling is by far the most enjoyable and kind of just well put together call of duty campaign. I've tried at a long time, qualified by the fact that I skipped out of the recent ones, but there were a few in their infinite warfare among them. All right, I said i'd start and i'd play a little bit and then IT would just be so railroad dy, you're always in these shooting galleries .

and it's just loud and like .

machine and big piece and then another shooting and boring .

time crisis to style.

right? Like i'd like like far cry style first person shooter. I love games like that where you're like circling around and like picking your you your vantage point and like sneaking in and using stuff and like trigger alarms and then sneaking back out and letting guys chase you and like all of that stuff is really fun.

And color duty just typically doesn't really do much of that. However, black of six does do a fair amount of that. And furthermore, it's just at least from what i've played, I played like four or five hours and like five, six missions in. It's just a it's a pretty fun and pretty dumb story that i'm having a good time playing through. So this is set in the ninety nineties during Operation desert storm during like the first gulf war, which do not let you think that that lead to any kind of a political statement or any criticism or even commented.

None in this game.

No, they're not interested and they have not been interested for very long time. So like you know, that just kind of is what that is at this point. You show up, you're in the gulf.

And then like immediately the first bag guys, the shop you like, it's panthay on and pathy on is like this private military like spy group that works for bad guys. And those are the guys you fight. Like the whole time occasionally you'll go into A I was .

see you're not actually fighting like iraq. No.

and i'm doing a mission right now, I guess where i'm fighting like arms soldiers like so he has mentioned like he has hired the the whatever shadowy group to like give him weapons or something. So like it's in the background, but it's not like you're not like a soldier on the ground and it's not doing the thing that like modern warfare IT did, for example, where you're popping between two different protagonists.

So older call of duty games, you would be one guy in like the military front, like you're just fully like a grunt next to a tank with the machine on just fighting armies. And then you're also like a british sas agent where you're seeking onto the subs and doing like covert Operations and like they get a kind of moderate their pace by switching you between characters. In this case you just one got a person case you don't have a name or you don't speak. It's always the way this way and color. Do you like all the other characters.

talk kind like the metaphor refers assia good.

But what's interesting is just the structure of the game and all of the variety of that put into IT. So you're kind of like you are working for the C I A. But then IT becomes clear, the C I, A is compromise, so you have to let go. Rog and IT really feels like one of those new mission impossible movies like basically like you were in the I M F. And now the I M F is compromised.

So you're just about and there is a ball in cu. And that and .

so you're in this absolutely beautiful mansion. I mean, like natural wm, and you not.

this place is beautiful. H G, T, V episode.

really the best place are beautiful. It's like a nineteen seventy managed that's kind of a little decrepit. And now it's the nineties and like no one spent there in a while and you're expLoring IT and there's like you can use the uv light to find secrets and unlock more things and then all your buddies hang out there. And as you play your missions, you recruit more buddies and then you go and you like talk to them.

So it's it's got that feeling of one of those machine games, wolfstein games, where part of the fun of the game is just you have this big, cool kind of ever expanding hub that you're just walking through and it's so beautiful looking and just kind of nice and then that you talk to people and you like choose questions to ask them and they sort of answer your questions. And you have conversations with different characters even though. Your character doesn't talk and that part of IT is just cool.

And then the missions themselves are also pretty cool, like there's a lot of sneaking. There's a pretty good stell system. I'm doing a serious emissions right now that's like kind like far cry, like it's a big open map and you have a car and you drive around, you know it's not like farcet.

It's kind of like uncharted for where they give you the sort of open areas and you have a car and it's like still it's not A U V soft me like it's not a totally systemic simulated thing. It's still kind of controlled, but it's open and like allows for some flexibility with how you approach things. I think that's really cool.

And I guess my last thoughts that i'll say is that i've i've been playing IT at the same time as the veil guard, and it's just taking me back to that kind of two hander gaming that I haven't done in a long time because I haven't played a call of duty in a long time. But I used to really do this, especially when I was just kind of gamer and like, wasn't writing about them in the kind of in two thousands, I would play a color duty campaign as IT just mindless fun thing, and then also be playing some big RPG that had also come out in the fall. And the games have such different rhythms.

They're so like, you know, they just are totally different type of game that depending on what i'm in the mood for, I just go to one or the other. And they've really have been kind of pairing well together and making me very an nosti c for that. So anyways, yeah, I really like IT. I think if you like first person shooters and like single player campaign s at all and you have game pass like check IT out at the very least like it's it's worth worth giving a spin. It's pretty cool.

And so there I just hung up on this point a lot of IT. So is their responsible the criticism that has been made in the past about like caldo the games, just having you shooting, like arabs and Brown people, like a special ops, like mercenary group. Is that there way with this is what all .

of these this is like what action movies i've been doing this the top gun movies, some mysterious private group that you're it's .

just so funny. Well, because they used to be like, oh, you go in and you should like, I don't know, like easter grapes so like you, whatever yeah, if you're in a middle astern country, you just shoot. It's just so I mean, these games, the way they like, the way they bend over backwards, should not be political in any way. It's just extremely funny.

I guess. Yeah I mean, you are still shooting the republican guard like you were shooting the rockies in this time and it's you know you're going to feel about that the way you'll feel that I think most of the game is just like tom cruse mission impossible movie. So IT doesn't really feel like they're saying anything at all. They're very .

consciously trying not to yeah, I don't think that kind of how they do IT is by just introducing so many non historical aspects to the historical fiction such that year. Well, this is an even based in reality anymore so I don't know what it's saying like that kind .

of their own and honestly and in my opinion, that's it's for the best like I do.

we want the .

same thing. Let us just play through .

a dumb action movie. It's fine, like I at least I maybe i'm just exhausted at this point of hoping for anything else. Like I just like, cool.

There's like coolness assn. Lady and he wants me to help her kill a bunch of like mafia guys somewhere after you have great like this is fun. I got a remote control car that that kills people like that kind of what I mean for early ast.

What I mean doing about IT anyway is pretty fun game. And um and yeah kind of a return to form at least for their single player campaign. S ravens of I believe did the did the single player for this game and they've made some pretty cool ames in the past.

I don't know how many people are still there or how much things have changed, but it's cool the cm, getting to do another one. All right? Well, that is a long episode. It's like we've been putting on dealing with something else in the world that might be making a sanzio. I sit here talking to our microphone .

about video that I .

can just last for you.

I just want people to know. Five, forty seven m now pulls closed, start to close in one hour and thirteen minutes.

and then the counting begins. Yes.

and that could the breath, the breath, everyone, we're to get through the city. right? Well, I will see, come a hello, high water. I will see the two of you next week.

So true, luis.

One by.

Triple click is produced by Jason share, many mires and me, kr milton, I had mix the show, and also are the music show. Art is by tom D. J. Some of the games and products we talk about on the subsides may have been sent to us for free. For review consideration, you can find a link to our ethics policy in the show notes. Triple click is a proud member of the maximum fund podcast network, and if you like our show, we hope you will consider supporting us by becoming a member at maximum fund at org flash, join find on twitter at triple click POS, and email the triple click at maximum fun t work and link toward this court in the show notes. Thanks for visiting cn next time.

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