#24 Creating Future-Proof Design Teams with Laura Müller
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How to create future-proof design teams. This is the topic of today's episode with Laura Müller. Hello and welcome everyone to another episode of the Future of UX podcast. My name is Patricia Reines and I am your host.

In this podcast, we are exploring the future. We are focusing on new technologies in design and we are exploring possible futures for our design industry. And in today's episode, I have Laura Müller with me. Laura is the head of UX UI at the Henkel DX Innovation Center here in Berlin.

Laura shares her approach on how to future-proof your design team and also what future-proofing actually means, but also why it's important for design teams to focus on it now. In our interview, we also talked about different leadership styles and how to actually become a design leader.

One thing that I personally really admire about her is her approach of failure. From my experience, innovation comes from trying new things out and allowing yourself and your team to fail. That's part of the process. And the truth is, in reality, the failure culture is actually implemented in a lot of design teams, which really harms the innovation.

Yeah, but Laura shares really open and honest about how failure is part of the process to be successful and to future-proof your design teams. Yeah, that was a truly inspiring and insightful interview, not only for designers who want to focus more on innovation and new tech, but also for design leaders who are asking themselves how to approach new tech and how to implement that in our workflows. So enjoy this amazing episode with Laura.

Laura, I'm super happy that you're here. So thank you so much for taking the time to kickstart the podcast. I would just really love you to introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about your background and your experience in the design field.

Okay, yeah, hi. Thank you for listening and tuning in and now I'm going to introduce myself. So my name is Laura Müller. I started in the UX industry maybe 13 or 14 years ago and it was before it was even really called user experience design. So I was still called

information architect or concept for digital. So this term came up a little bit later and I always had a big passion for tech and I even started to code my own websites when I was maybe 13.

I always had a fun element in also even back then I played around with ICQ. So the tech thing was super interesting for me. And then I studied business communication management because I thought I would go more into marketing. And then during my studies there, I realized, oh, marketing is actually not what is interesting for me.

And this was also the time when the first iPhone came along. So or the first adaption of this was in 2009. And then I was, ah, this is so cool what you can do with this phone. I was super, super amazed by this. So I wrote my master thesis about apps.

And you can actually call it maybe the apps there. There were like some really shitty ones out there where you could just shake some things and people were experimenting around with no real value. But then there were also other apps, for example, from Nivea, where they actually told you what sunscreen to use and what your skin type is and so on. So I would say this was a little bit also the...

the beginning of service design and how can I actually help the customer and the user and still market at the same time, but with something useful. So this was one part. And of course, this whole product design thinking of what is the user feeling? How can I help the user? This was for me much, much more interesting than working in public relation or marketing.

So then I thought, okay, this is really what I want to do.

And I then found my first job at an agency that's now called IBM iX. And there I started off in the mobile area in a time when nobody wanted mobile. So we had those discussions around nobody is going to buy a car over a phone. Nobody is going to actually... Unbelievable. Yeah.

or do an insurance over the phone. And now, when you look at it today, it feels crazy that all these arguments were there. And I was the one creating pitches for apps, why companies need them, cool ideas, fast service design concepts, and so on. So I was pitching with the team back then like crazy, and people only said no to everything.

Yeah, you don't need help with recruiting over the phone. This is done more on a desktop. A recruiter wouldn't, it's not practical to do it over the phone to recruit so on. So I heard this no all the time. It was pretty frustrating to start like this in my career, let's say.

because you also think, am I really this bad at what I suggest because I own here? No. But then the good thing was that this brought me into this whole innovation mindset of how do I actually create a pitch, quickly understanding the user needs, quickly understanding the stakeholders, and then being able to pull this all together into an elaborate concept.

And I did this a lot of times, so you get better the more you do it, right? And then I switched a little bit around and went then into an innovation lab. And this was pretty cool because there we actually worked on things in a holistic way. So there were business experts, service design experts, technical experts, UX designers, all creating ideas for ventures.

so our our goal was to create successful ventures with digital products um and um there i changed my mindset again um not so much from going like from a user experience perspective only but also learning what it actually means for a business

And this helped me to provide better information for people that have a business background. Because they are in reality often the ones deciding for an idea or not. So the better you understand their language, the better...

or the more realistic it becomes that your idea is actually executed. So yeah, and now I'm here at Henkel since over two years.

Henkel built a new location in Berlin for Henkel DX. It's the digital department of Henkel. And there I was actually the first employee. And the office was new. There was no team. I was here alone with the task. Laura, please build your first user experience and user interface team. Wow. Big task.

sorry very long introduction no but i think it's super impressive and really interesting to hear like all the things steps you went through to like be where you are at the moment um especially with your background like in business and like building the pitches and i personally really loved um that you mentioned um you know how skeptical people were with mobile phones we forget that at the moment or right now right like

today it's normal that we of course do insurances we buy our cars via phone for sure right um so I'm thinking like you know when you when you look back on on your past and then looking into the future what do you think are the topics at the moment where people are maybe a little bit skeptical and thinking like no one will ever do that now you know there's no chance that this will ever happen and

Maybe in like five to 10 years, it's totally normal, right? Like, and people are not skeptical anymore. What do you think about it?

The biggest revolution will happen in our workforce itself. We know that some countries are already experimenting with people working less. Because this five-day week from 9:00 to 5:00, especially with the AI topic now coming up, that of course has some speed advantages. Do humans really need to work

from, I don't know, 2025 to '67 on a nine to five basis with only 30 days of holiday. Is this concept still a thing? And I'm sure that in about 10 years, people will probably think, why did we do that? Why couldn't we change this sooner? Because I mean, the data shows

that when the work week was reduced from five to four days, actually the revenue went up of these companies. Obviously, there are lots of factors, yeah, but I do think that satisfied humans will deliver better work.

So I think the combination of AI and thinking into the work of the future, this will be one of the things that has most impact. And at the moment, probably we cannot even think maybe even in 20 years, we only work two days a week. This could also happen. So this, I think, is one thing. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, super, super interesting. Definitely something that is really difficult to even put in your head for a lot of people, right? Because it sounds really abstract, but also the term working, right, can change a lot at the moment. It's like,

it's exhausting sometimes. So if you shift a little bit more to other tasks, maybe then like the whole concept of working changes as well. Maybe. Let's see how it looks like. And another thing is that I think we are still in this area or in this era now where we have phones and laptops. So there is still this barrier of going into the digital world.

And I think this barrier is going to be gone soon. So it's going to feel so fluid that you don't even realize it anymore. So you're not actively taking a phone, but it will happen maybe more natural. In what way? I don't know. And I am sure that then

Maybe I'm already dead when this happens, but I'm sure then people will look back and say, what did these idiots do with all these technical devices? It could have been so much easier. So I think also here there's going to be definitely –

a new thing that we cannot even imagine yet, because we are still so used to needing this transfer technical device to jump into the digital. I mean, obviously with the glasses,

You have a little bit then the feeling, but still, for example, for me, I get motion sickness using them. So for me, this is not the right solution yet. But I'm sure that soon we will experience digital in another way. I mean, if the metaverse like we imagine it today is going to be...

really execute it on and be operational, I don't know. But definitely, like the calls we have today where we all are in our small prisons talking to each other, I think this is going to be replaced pretty soon.

Super interesting. And I think your mindset is like pretty fascinating for me to hear that, like being not being scared of the unknown, but saying there is this like void and I don't know what it is, what it will be. Let's see what happens.

how do you live this approach with your team right like not saying okay we have like strict guidelines things need to be a certain way but there is this you know place of unknownness um how do you live that in your team yeah I think um

So maybe I will explain a little bit about my team first before jumping into the answer of this question. So when I started hiring, I was looking for people that are hungry, that really want to learn. So it's not necessarily about the current skill set, but also about the skill sets they want to create in the future.

and about the interests they have in the design space, and not only in UX/UI, but in a more holistic way. And when we put together the team, and I say "we" because the first person I hired, then we hired together, and we have this thing in our team that we make hiring decisions together.

because I really want people to like to work with each other, to have a good time at work. And at the same time, also if the team decides together with you, then you have this better feeling of togetherness because we created the team. And I must say that this actually worked quite well. So we have a good atmosphere. We are very diverse people.

and we have a very broad skill set. When we hired, we looked at what is this person very, very good at and is this something that we still need in the team? Because if everyone is good at the same thing,

then you cannot really puzzle it together that well. And also at Henkel, the projects can go from very specific B2B things that are on a UX level super, super hard to solve

but we also have other projects where it's more about a beautiful landing page. So, and therefore you can already see that maybe one person that covers like really deep user experience and research stuff might not be then the one also designing this crazy project

a website that is more focused on the visual. And therefore, when the team was created, I was really looking at how do these skills complement each other. So this was the one thing. And then the second thing, and now we come back to your question, is

I usually ask in an interview a question around what do you think the future will look like in this field? And then I can already feel is this person passionate about the future? Because I am. I am very passionate about the future. And I want to create the next. I want to see what's next. So it's something I love. And I think...

We as UX designers in general, we have to love the future because we are also creating it, right? So this is something, yeah? And this eagerness and this passion for the future is something there, like I don't compromise. So this is one key element of building a future-proof team.

And going then into the second layer of this question is: I want to know what skills people want to learn. So not what they are good at yet, but what are you passionate about, even though you might not know anything about it. And then once the person is hired, I try to do

Two things. So first, of course, I try to match projects to the current skill set. But then I also try to find projects where people can or products where people can learn the skill set they want to learn. And because I do believe that it's not enough to

to basically do all your projects and products because we have both a tinker. We have sometimes shorter projects, like I mentioned, when you just need to quickly deliver a landing page, but then we have real products with product teams behind working on Internet of Things stuff. For example, we work on a hair analyzer or we work on a research and development platform that's super complex. So there are really those products.

And there, of course, the skill set has to match a little bit to the UX/UI designer. But at the same time, there is this other layer of what they are trying to learn. And I try to integrate this into the project. I give you now one example.

where there is a person in my team who really wants to learn how to use AI on a daily business. So then I basically said, hey, why don't you pitch this in addition to the things you are doing to the team?

And then you can integrate it. So now we actually got in touch with Midjourney and we are trying now to form a collaboration with them. I don't know if it's going to happen, hopefully. And I think here it's

Sometimes it's good to be bold. For example, there was no contact for Midjourney anywhere. So then we wrote the people on LinkedIn and then they actually wrote back. And now we can have our first introduction, right? And this is how innovation is formed. I sometimes don't believe it's a separate thing that happens next to your project you do or next to the product you create, but it happens within.

and you have to push the boundaries here. And yeah, so that was a very long answer. Super interesting. And I really love the mid-journey story. Super inspiring, I think. I get a lot of questions from people who are talking about their team setup and saying that they feel a little bit lost sometimes. They don't...

They don't really know how to approach all these future topics, what to do. Some don't have a good manager or a good team leader who has that mindset. So what do you do if you are on your own, if you are alone, but you're still passionate about the future, but maybe the only one in a team? Do you have any tips?

Yeah, so when I started off in the mobile and app field, my manager back then, she quit after three months when I started. So I was alone in this team, in a new field and with, let's say, not very elaborate skills yet. So I went to...

meetups as much as I could try to find other people who can help me. I wrote people, I tried to find mentors in other parts of the agency and try to get all the help I can get.

And sometimes maybe they couldn't help me directly with the problem or the challenge I had, but I felt not alone anymore. So it was about getting tips, but also about somebody understanding at which point I am. Because at the beginning of my career, I wasn't sure, am I not good at my job or is this something everyone is struggling with?

Good, that's a good question. Yeah, I had this constantly in my head and then of course I was also dealing like many UX designers with imposter syndrome and I don't know if it really was imposter syndrome back then because I really didn't know so much but I still have it now sometimes. So I was really struggling and when I spoke to fellow designers

then I knew I'm not alone. Everyone is struggling with it. And although this didn't help me in solving it, I just felt so much better. That makes a lot of sense, right? I think it's always very interesting to hear that everyone is going through that and also people who are really advanced

right now and have years and years of experience. I mean, you have 14 years of experience in UX and this still happens, right? And it's totally normal and you need to embrace it somehow. And it probably even won't get better in an era of AI where you feel, you know, when you open LinkedIn every day, you feel like, oh, what happened in the last 24 hours? There are new articles, new tools, and you feel constantly overwhelmed by everything that's going on. So how do you deal with

I wouldn't say it's a problem, but with this situation in your team, right, there's a lot going on. How do you keep track of what's going on? But also deal with client projects. How do you find the balance there? Yeah, so I would say if you have a healthy team in place, exchange will happen without

even actively planning it. So we have a channel where we just post constantly about work stuff, about non-work stuff, memes, so it's everything. And there I would say lots of exchange around projects and products is happening automatically. Then we have another format, it's just a weekly,

And here we actually saw that there is so much happening in AI that we have to prioritize this topic at least over the next months. So what we do is each of us shows a tool that they actively tried out and saw a value in.

so if you tried something out you didn't see a value it didn't help your process then we are not showing it because it's uh it's a short time so it's like 10 minutes out of our weekly where we also discuss resources statuses of things but i just want to maybe explain how important this topic is to us that we dedicated these 10 minutes

And then, because what I really want is for us to be able to implement this in our daily life, to use it on a constant basis. And for that, you need different experiences. So everyone in the team was on board and because we are eight,

Of course, if eight people try out your tools and look at the value, then you become pretty fast at going through this topic. I would have never been able to understand this topic by myself. So I think, let's say in a team, I would create a foundation that exchange belongs to

or is just a given. And I feel like in healthy teams it is because then I'm sometimes amazed at how also even without me, people exchange and talk about designs and show each other the designs and really try to get feedback. And there is this nice culture of this that is happening. And I feel very excited

thankful here but at the same time me as um as a team leader of course i also try to find formats where we actively push it yeah because sometimes also you need a small um a small push yeah uh yeah 100 and um i think it's like pretty interesting that you're mentioning it that people are like exchanging on the side because of like the great team

team structure is there something i mean you already mentioned a few things right like really choosing people based on like their skill set and what they want to learn and then like um bringing them together for the right projects but what do you think really makes a great team you i mean you probably had some learnings in the last two years um yes and i mean even even before so um

I would say the first thing is that the people you hire and your leadership style should fit a little bit together. So if you are a person that needs like very detailed structure and lots of help, then probably I'm the wrong person.

Peter here, if you want space to create and to push yourself, maybe I'm better here. So this is the

the first part. Then I would say, I cannot stress this enough, diversity. And I'm not saying this, I think this is sometimes misleading when you talk about diversity. But for me, it was really important that we have different mindsets, genders, and that we can mix this together.

together because for me then what happens is something that I think nobody really talks about this but you actually get a great sense of humor in a diverse team and also mixing extroverted and introverted people because I mean I'm more on the extrovert side so of course I have a bias of hiring

also extroverted people, which is not so cool. So then I really had to push myself to learn about what does diversity mean for me. And then the outcome was the great humor. And humor is for me one of the main reasons why I like to come to work. I like to laugh a lot and

And even in situations where things are sometimes challenging, if you have a good laugh in between, things are getting much easier. So for me, in a team that has good humor, this is a very stable team. This is what I would say. And I feel it is connected, although I have no data to show this, to the diverse team setup.

but this is not something that you focus on in the interview right or in the hiring process that you i don't know check how they if they like to love they like to if you have like the same sense of humor is it something that happens afterwards or already doing the interview yeah so

The interview process in our team is like this. You meet in a casual way at first, and then a few team members will already be there. And this is then to check a little bit the personality and if the personality would fit. Then you are given a task to check the other skill set. But yes, in this first interview, I mean,

I do then maybe make a small joke and see the reaction or I ask them what they like to watch, like serious, because this is also already an indicator of maybe the level of humor. And then I would say,

everyone loves humor, you know, and I think lots of people want to have a great time at work. And also what it means for in the leadership sense is you need to create a safe space where people are even willing to share their jokes or their humor. Yeah, because I mean, obviously, when you are with your close friends, you're

Of course, you have a good laugh around topics because you know each other well. And this is because of the safe space you have. And this is not UX/UI related, but I do feel like a good humor makes also a good team. That makes total sense. I'm just curious, what series would you say show you that this person has a good humor? The IT crowd.

I don't know it. I don't know what I need to check it out. Definitely. So if somebody says the IT crowd, then I am

I'm already in. I mean, something like Breaking Bad is also quite nice. But it can also be something completely different, right? There it's again, also I have to watch myself not to be biased just because somebody maybe finds humor in, I don't know, animal documentaries. That's also fine, you know? Okay, that would be an interesting sense of humor. Yeah.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. So from your experience, I mean, we talked a lot about how future proving design teams look from your perspective as a design leader.

Do you have any tips for people who are looking for teams like that? Because everything you mentioned is pretty rare. I mean, I know how most teams are structured and how they embrace the future new technologies and also how they embrace humor. It's very different to what you're describing. And that's also so important why we need to talk about that to show other people and also other designers that this is still possible also to find good design teams where you are a good fit.

So what would you recommend designers who are looking for a team who really wants to future proof? How do you find these teams? What do you need to do during the hiring process? Maybe also how do you need to prep yourself to be ready for a role like that? Yeah, so I do believe I share your opinion that these teams are rare to find.

At the same time, I think...

If you are from your personality, like you are very interested in the future, you have the sense of humor combined, then you can also help to shape the team. So I think it's not just because you enter maybe a team at first where you maybe don't feel this level of comfortness or you don't feel that people are pushing towards the future.

It was the same for me. I also worked in teams where at the beginning I didn't feel too comfortable. And I still thought, okay, the agency is interesting. I really want to see how they are working. Although there was not a total, let's say, match in terms of level of comfortness and personality. And then the more experience I got,

the bolder i also got in showing who i am and what environment i need of course if you are starting out like some of us or a lot of us are very unsure about who we are in a work environment and there i would say um it's totally normal that you are maybe a little bit more shy and

But this is maybe the first thing that I think a team can be turned around into something where you would feel more comfortable. And it would mean that you show your colors and then others can too, because this is something I also experienced. So if I do like, I don't know, a dad joke, and then somebody else replies with a dad joke, then we have automatically, we found our, our,

a good level and then this also has of course impact on the work we do together because then it's easier to work together. Then I would say in an interview it's kind of easy to see what the atmosphere is because you will see how like are you alone in this interview with another person or who is actually with you.

Like in our case, sometimes four people from the team are with me, which can be a little bit challenging for the candidates sometimes. But it also shows that the team is involved in the hiring process, right? So this would be the first. Then also in the next steps, are you meeting the rest of the team or not? Because I was also working sometimes in places where there was one manager, he or she hired me.

And then I just sat there and the team was informed three days earlier there's somebody new joining, right? So this then is maybe an indication that it's not the team you want when you have these needs, right? So, and I think also in the way the hiring is done, you can see that

how future ready the team is also because there is this whole change in how the modern work will look like. So for example, I'm a mother working

Full time, for example. So this is also maybe a sign that there is something healthy out there. So there can be lots of indicators. But in this case, I would also really, while also, of course, interviewing, observe the situation. How is feedback given in this interview?

How do people answer? Do people look at their boss first before answering or can they just speak freely? So there are small indicators. And for me, one of my first jobs where I was hired, the woman in the interview was teasing her boss in a very funny way.

And then for me, it was just clear I want to work there because if it's a boss and an employee can tease him in front of a potential candidate. But as I said, this is just, let's say, this is more about also what my experience is. It could be completely different for somebody else. And I also...

work together with someone who said Laura I really like you but I like for me it's so hard to work under you because I need way more structure I need to know first I want to do this then that then this and and I

I have this approach of finding your own structure. There are a thousand ways how to solve things and to come to a great UX design, please don't copy mine and find the one that fits to you. But this is especially for ones that are a little bit more junior, sometimes very challenging.

super interesting, right? Because there's always the balance between giving them what they need, but also pushing them out of their comfort zone. So they learn that on their own, right? I mean, it's really nice if someone reads a book for you, for example, but you need to learn how to read on your own at some point, right? I mean, it's not as comforting, right? But sometimes you need to learn it the hard way. I don't know. But so I think that's also really important to...

to keep in mind, right? Yeah. And I think you have to collect the experience yourself. And if I directly give it to you on a silver platter, then even my solution might be wrong. And then I push a designer into

into the wrong solution. So because I'm not always right. And then this person obviously then goes way, way deeper into the product needs, into the user needs. So if I provide them a solution, this would be so wrong in my opinion. Yeah.

But at the same time, this doesn't mean that they are left alone because of course I'm there for mentorship if they're struggling, if there is, let's say, maybe they need help with

with pushing their designs through with stakeholders. So I am there. I just don't want to put this ready process onto them. Yeah, like the perfect structure and everyone needs to follow it. And otherwise it doesn't work. I mean, maybe that's a really good ending question before we come to the resources.

Do you think being flexible with the frameworks you use, with the resources you use, with the mindset you use is something that is very important for like the future proof design teams and future proof design teams? Yes. So during my past 14 years, obviously I found methods that really work well for me.

And then I tend to repeat using those methods and using those frameworks, like the value proposition canvas from Strategizer, for example. I just love it, so I reuse it. But then I also learned that trying out a new method can help a lot. So one example is I tried out the team canvas method.

If a new team is starting on a product, on a project, then alignment is key. I don't mean only between designers, but in a bigger group.

So then the first time I tried this out, it was so shaky and I didn't know what half of the stuff meant in there. And then I was just, I don't know, pretending that I've done this method lots of times or no, I think maybe I even admitted that I use it the first time and want to know if it works. And now it became part of my standard things I do for every project.

And this is important because you cannot

You cannot advance if you don't try out new things. And this does push you in a very uncomfortable situation. As a facilitator, trying out methods for the first time with a group can be quite hard sometimes because you don't have this facilitator confidence yet. So in this case, it's maybe a nice small example of being very shaky trying it out the first time.

And then the second time already much more, I can also do it with much more confidence. And now I don't even think about how to use this method anymore. But now I need to add the next one, right? And the next and the next. And I think maybe eight to 10 methods or frameworks should be standard in your head that you can just use like this as a UX designer. And then I would add...

one every two, three months. And also it can happen, for example,

We all maybe worked with a persona framework, right? To see, okay, I really want to understand my users and now I don't even use this anymore. And I went to jobs to be done because it's way more helpful for the things I want to create. So that's why this constant change is happening for UX designer, especially on the method side.

I think you mentioned something like super, super interesting. And I think this is probably one of the really big important things in your team. You try things out for the first time. You're not afraid to fail. You admit it. And for me, hearing that is so interesting because it's some kind of a role model for me, right? If I would be in your team.

to not be afraid to fail myself if I try something out. And I can talk about my own experience, right? Like the most biggest learnings for me were when I tried something new out, when I, you know, overcame this fear and I learned something. But sometimes I was too afraid also working in teams to do that. And that most of the times because no one else was doing it, right? So like everyone wanted to be perfect. No one admitted failure. There was no like open culture there.

And how should that work, right? Like you need to be bold. You also will fail at some point or will be shaky, not failing, right? Like just being shaky and that's totally okay. And I think it's very inspiring if leaders are doing that and being open about it and not like pretending to be perfect. So I think for me, it was like a big learning, just like hearing that because it's also not normal, right? Like what you have in teams.

Yeah, I think honesty in business can be valuable and it also leads to being future proof. Because if you constantly pretend that you know something that you don't, then you might not get the input you need because you are not alone, right? And then if you admit, for example, also now with artificial intelligence, I admit that I'm scared and I admit that I don't know if I can...

if I can handle this, the speed gains that are created with my brain. And then I share this openly and then lots of people say, I feel the same way. I'm also a little bit scared. And actually, that's also quite

I don't know, in the end it's quite cool that the future is sometimes scary, but if you share with others your fears, then it becomes less scary and more into the way that we can actually create something together. And this only happens when you open yourself and be honest about it.

Oh, amazing. I think great tip for everyone who's listening. We all need to do that much more, I feel, especially on social media, but also in your design teams to really talk openly about everything that's coming, your fears, successes as well, basically everything that's coming, right?

So to end the interview, I am curious to hear if you have any resources that you want to share, maybe that can be books, can be courses, can be podcasts, anything that you would recommend to check out or have a look at. So I think for designers that are leaning at the moment more towards UI,

I would really recommend to use Miro and there in the Miro you have the Miroverse. And in the Miroverse you have all these frameworks, for example, the team canvas, the value proposition canvas, and you have two modes. You have one where it's empty and one where it's filled.

And this enables you to prepare your research, the workshops you want to do in a very cool way. So the Miroverse is something I admire and I also constantly use. Then for those who need to gain more knowledge around the topic at the beginning, I very much suggest UXdesign.cc.

There are articles there more for beginners and then there are articles that are more elaborate. Then my, yeah, one of my sources of information is definitely LinkedIn. It's like because I follow a lot of people there that I

that I admire, for example, I follow Nicholas Thompson and he has, I think almost every day, one minute around what's new on tech and he does it from a storytelling writer perspective. And this is also what I would recommend to follow people that have a different view on things and a different perspective.

and not only follow UX people, but maybe writers, engineers, architects, artists. So everything that can broaden your perspective. For those who work in innovation, I mean, the sprint book from Jake Knapp is a must. So this is pretty basic. And for those who...

who want to go more into a leadership and management role and want to create those future-proof teams. There is Julie Chu, A Making of a Manager, it's called the book. And I got the confidence to lead the team I lead today from her book.

So this is one. And then there's also a dark horse. They have a great leadership training that I also went to that enabled me also to find my own leadership style because before I thought, ah, now I have to be this very strict boss and keep my distance to the team and all this. And then with them, we defined, yeah,

together with other leaders, the style that fits to you. And this then makes you an authentic leader, which is very helpful because it's a mix. Great. Okay. Super cool. Thank you for all the resources. Super cool. I will write them all in the description of the podcast so people can check it out. Just click on the links and find it.

And where can people find you if they want to ask questions, reach out?

Yeah, so you can find me on LinkedIn, Laura Müller, working for Henkel DX. And there you can write me. This is the fastest way. Perfect. Okay, I will link everything in the description now so people can check you out, follow you, see what you post. I mean, I'm following you for a long time on LinkedIn now and I really enjoy your posts. They are always very true and honest and I feel you always share good learnings from your team. So it's a great resource.

Cool. Thank you, Laura, so much for the interview. I really enjoyed it. I'm a huge fan of your honesty and all the things that you are trying out. So I think it's like a really interesting podcast for everyone. If you are a manager, if you're leading a team, but also for designers who want to work in like a future-proof environment. So thank you so much. Thank you very much.

Thank you so much for listening. I really hope that you got a lot of insights from this amazing interview. If you liked that episode, feel free to share it on your Instagram and your stories. Share it with a friend, with a colleague, with someone who might be interested in that topic. And of course, I would be super happy if you could rate the podcast, give us a five-star review, and that would be super helpful for us to support the podcast and my work and make it popular.

more visible for other people as well so thank you so much for listening and hear you in the future