#01 - Exploring immersive spaces
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Hello and welcome to the Future of UX podcast. I'm Patricia Reines, UX/UI designer and creative resident at Adobe. So in this very first episode, I spoke with Gian Thomas, a UX designer from D-Modern from Hamburg. He is working across a wide range of disciplines and with new technologies like augmented reality or virtual reality.

And in our interview, he shared his experiences about designing with virtual reality and augmented reality. We were talking about the chances, but also the challenges of those technologies and how to get even started. And we also talked about the future of design and all the skills which will become important in the future. So let's start with this inspiring episode. Have fun.

Hi John, thank you so much for being here today and making the time to talk to us about your projects. You're working a lot with augmented reality and virtual reality and I am following your work or what you're doing at demodern for quite some time now. So I can't wait to hear more about your projects. But before we are coming to that, it would be great if you could introduce yourself a little bit and

talk a little bit about your way into design. Sounds really good. Thank you for having me. Let's start when I was a kid. And as a kid, I always tried to understand the world around me. I'm also a fairly intentional listener. I take in a lot of inputs, so to say. But I couldn't just accept stuff from people talking about it. I always had to find out for myself, see if it worked, if it didn't work, and if it didn't work, fix it and

think how I could like bring ideas into reality and I think that started at a very early age for me as a kid and luckily my parents always supported me in that which was very nice and so I took this learning by doing kind of thing and I took that with me and I think that is also what brought me to where I am today. Somewhere in between when I got out of high school I went to

pursue an MBA, which is much different from what I'm doing today. I didn't make it all the way to the MBA. I stopped after the bachelor. But when I was finished with it, I had the feeling that the work I do, I wanted to be closer itself to the people that the work touches. And so that combined with this urge to actually like make tangible things

Kind of led me to reconsider my direction, so to say. And then I found this place, so to say, called Hyper Island, which sounds a bit magical. And maybe it is also a bit magical. It's basically, it's a school and they provide this framework that is all about group dynamics. In this framework, you reflect the law.

where you want to go on your process how it's been what happened how you feel about what happened what insights yet you can kind of derive from that and and how you should then adjust course and and in that process which is supported by by briefings from like industry partners like regular briefings like agencies would get you it's like a journey of self-exploration and

most of all self-leadership because you kind of lead yourself into where you should be. And I think that's a really beautiful thing. And there I found that with this thing that I'm quite the intentional listener, so to say, and that I really like to make stuff that UX design is exactly where I should be solving problems that make sense.

the world a better place, so to say. Yeah. So what did you study at High Island? Back then the program was called Digital Media and now I think it's called Digital Media Creative. But besides that, I think they have at the moment also things that are more about designing for artificial intelligence and so on and so on. They're constantly in exchange with people from industries.

about what they see on the horizon and then they adjust their courses based on that which is which is a very powerful tool in the end everything boils down to the same all of these directions that you can choose they are founded on this framework or this basis of group dynamics self-leadership they basically get people ready for a world that's that's always changing

Yeah, that's an amazing approach. That sounds really interesting. Definitely. After your studies there, you started to work at an agency, right? Not a demo den, right? You started somewhere. No, I started back in my first internship or like I did an internship. It was at an agency called JWT and they were setting up a digital team there. I found two awesome mentors there. Not like what you would usually expect.

for a UX designer because they were not UX designer. One was a digital planner or like strategist and the other one was a creative technologist. Since besides me as the UX intern, there was no other UX person, I kind of filled this gap in between them, which was both sometimes a bit frustrating because you're still trying to figure stuff out for yourself a lot. But understanding how these two amazing people worked

also helped me to kind of push myself and explore for myself, which I enjoyed anyway, finding stuff out for myself. So it wasn't that much of a problem. And so we, together, we also moved to another agency as like a team and we built out another team in a classic agency. That didn't work out so well. We always said that without...

patting ourselves on the back. People there, they were quiet. They were all good people, right? All good people that do great work. But it was in an environment that wasn't so receptive of digital yet. And we always kind of thought it was like, we always took the following metaphor, that it was basically a, that we were like the color printer that they bought

but they were only printing black and white on it. People would come in and they would ask like, so what's the claim? And we were like, I don't know, we got insights for you? Things like that. I mean, bless all those people, but it just didn't work. Okay, yeah, okay. But I think I know what you mean. I'm sure that many people out there have those kind of problems even today because...

Yeah, like digitalization started like some years ago, but some companies haven't like implemented it completely. So I think a lot of people understand what you're talking about. But how is it now at Demodern? Like for those who don't know Demodern, maybe you could talk a little bit about what it is. That's the complete opposite, so to say. It's a 100% digital agency. So let's say digital first. Basically, we consider ourselves an innovation and production house.

for digital solutions with the creative application of new technologies. Creative as in joyful, but at the same time also meaningful, of course. Otherwise, I wouldn't be a UX designer. So we're at the moment, we're three offices. We have a little satellite office and about 100 people across all those offices. One thing that we have as a culture is that you step into this environment where it's just a constant...

flow of inspiration. Like there is, there's people that I found people that are there that are kind of like they share the same beliefs. And they also believe in trying new things, and learning, staying curious, although caring about process rather than just like the end product, because in the end, if the process is good, and people are happy, the end product will be

better as well for it. And that is, that's very humbling to be part of that. That's really nice to see how everyone or how actually how no one is too good for anything. Everyone just rolls up their sleeves and tries to make the best stuff they can possibly make realistically.

And how do you structure your teams? Because what I think is really like interesting about like your project is that you are able to like fill different positions. For example, you have like a really nice storytelling about like all your projects.

but also like a great concept and great visuals as well. So there are like many skills combined in your projects. And this, I think, is really interesting because sometimes I'm seeing projects where I think, okay, it's a really great concept, but actually it lacks a little bit of visual design or the storytelling. So there are some things missing. And I think what you are doing like so well is like,

combining all those skills. So I would like to know how you structure those teams and how you tackle problems like integrating technologies like virtual reality, for example. So how do you start those things? Let's start at the beginning and talk about how we are structured, because I think it lays at the foundation about why it works to a good extent.

I'm in the Hamburg office and in the Hamburg office there is about, I think we're almost at 50 people. Besides like office management and so on, there is three teams and each team, we call them squads,

they're autonomous in themselves like they could take on any brief any problem and translate it into a digital solution that is either like a web experience or an ar experience or a vr experience or or anything um because they're they're all made up out of every specialism that you need from digital producers of course ux designers but also front-end developers

backend developers, Unity developers, so like people that can create games, for example, or VR experiences, 3D artists that make these, the objects that go into these worlds, for example, storytellers. So as kind of like the, for UX, which is a lot about how stuff works,

should work. We have like, so to say, it goes hand in hand with storytelling. And that is kind of that is pushed by different people. And so we have this back and forth, where we kind of bring solutions to new levels by simply working

Another that I feel is important to make things like this happen is that everyone is involved from the very beginning when the brief comes in to almost the very end. But especially the beginning is important when we define these ideas and everyone sits together from storytellers to developers and so on to all think about the

How can we best, let's say, capitalize on this opportunity space that we have based on the insights that the brief gives us? And there is this simply communication and people collaborating to create ideas and build on each other. I think that's a big part of why it works. There is basically no hierarchy. Like everyone can lead or can drive their own direction.

the things that they care about, give their input and speak up and make that a reality if they convince people enough. It's sometimes it feels a bit, you might feel a bit lost

But at some point you start to understand that, I mean, in the end it's like structured like an ideation process. But as soon as people do it more and more often enough, they start to kind of internalize this process and you start to see that people also start enjoying it more and more. I think that is maybe a bit of the secret sauce. Yeah.

That sounds really interesting because in the beginning when you were talking about your story, your journey, you already said that you really like to get a lot of inspiration from different sources, different people. Your first mentors you got were from different fields.

that's I think that's really interesting and now you're like based in a team with a lot of different people so you get a lot of like different inspirations from different people and maybe this is some kind of a key to like really like keep inspired or like come really up with innovative ideas because this is like what your teams are actually doing so that's that's maybe also like a really great tip for for people not to like surround with like

your ex-designers all the time but like get input from other areas exactly like we're also kind of like every specialism has their own let's call it guild or like

like group that kind of transcends or like goes outside of these autonomous squads or teams. But I always have the feeling the most interesting inspiration comes from outside of your comfort zone. I think that holds true time and time again. Yeah.

It's like outside of your comfort zone because it's actually really comforting and nice if you surround yourself with people, you know what they're talking about. But if you're talking to a developer, then sometimes for me, I'm just like, I don't really know what this means. Please explain it to me. So you learn something, but it's also kind of difficult at some point. I also think when we're talking about always trying new stuff and learning, try maybe coding.

as a UX designer. It doesn't have to be fancy stuff, but with the tools that are available today, you can kind of start to understand how the

the people the developers that you work with how they think and when you understand how they think you can work better together and they'll appreciate that if you're lucky or probably the vision that you have for the solution that you want to create might also benefit from this better relationship so it's like a win-win and it's fun or i think it's fun

Like the projects you're doing there are like really innovative. You're trying to integrate a lot of like new technologies, virtual reality for example, augmented reality. Do you have a favorite project where you could like explain a little bit about how you came up with the idea at which point you decided we need virtual reality for that case study? Like a couple come to mind. I don't have like one darling or so but maybe I can talk about one of

the more recent project which was or is an immersive space and it's like an interactive and exhibition it's called Discovery Dog and basically it's this space where you where you can experience the unseen of

and the unseen and the future, which is also the unseen of the Hamburg Harbor, because it's a bit futuristic or like futuristically set. That's one thing why new technology, of course, was like an obvious choice, but also because we wanted in this space that allows like,

about 30 people at a time, we needed to create like immersive moments, also provide something for different types of visitors. So what we found is, of course, we didn't start with the technology, we started with asking ourselves, what's the story that we want to tell in the end. And the thing, the story that we wanted to tell in the end, based on the insights that we got, is that we wanted to show perspectives that people would otherwise not see on like a harbor tour or a

harbor boat tour or something like that so the insight was that one tourists in Hamburg don't have a lot of time when they when they visit the city only do like some like the highlight attractions they don't stay so many nights the other insight was like I said they don't really see the heart of the harbor and that's what we wanted to change so we wanted to transport people to this

unseen place and let them experience it at different levels. And if you think about it, it's like a, it allows you to explore six different perspectives that would otherwise remain unseen. Like you can,

see what it's like to be a customs officer and look for counterfeit goods in a container. You can have a look under the Elbe or underwater in the Elbe, which is the river that flows through Hamburg. And to make these experiences compelling, we, for example, used VR.

because it simply provides the most like emotional experience that is also that people are also able to enjoy individually while they're in a space with lots of other people i think that is

That is definitely a benefit in this case. What we found is that if you create an interactive exhibition and you have these 30 people, it's like you're directing a play, but with multiple protagonists that are all free to do whatever they want. And all of these people, they all have different wants and needs. Just like you would do with a website, you have different types of users. And so we found that there are these people that are like,

through like experience seekers so they would run towards like VR stations and so on right away. Then there's the people that are more like passively interested so they would probably enjoy something like video content.

And then there's also the people, maybe they don't even want to be in this space. Maybe they're just like the teacher that's there with his classroom and just needs to check if everyone is behaving. And

basically is only interested in having a second screen to a VR application and so on or maybe a bench to sit on I don't know like all these things and all these kinds of visitors you need to kind of cater to and that was a very interesting thing to get right or to

to balance. How do you as a UX designer design those things? Yes, it definitely doesn't start with technology itself. Anything that makes the idea testable in the easiest shape or form. So probably starts with text. You explain that idea and then you get feedback on it and then you scribble it or you scribble it together. Then you start to prototype it. Then you start to

when you all agree on it internally, you build something that kind of shows your vision, that makes your vision emotionally tangible. And so maybe that's more for websites, but like, for example...

Wireframes, there is no real emotion in that. But if you think about a small interactive prototype or a short animated film or something coming out of the motion graphics department, that is something that can captivate not only people internally, but also the client. And I think what we see very often is that

Once your vision becomes in like you have these kind of I would almost call those things tools like the prototype and and like the animated film because they become a tool for the client to pitch it also internally the project if they still need to convince other stakeholders or the CEO and so on like it's a win for every everybody. I think that's that's something I definitely believe in when it comes to

to the prototyping, I would say there are some tools that are definitely helpful to create or like in the creation of VR experiences or AR experiences. Like for me as a UX designer who is not the greatest in 3D design or in building a quick prototype in Unity,

I would go to a tool like Google blocks. Google blocks is basically this app that it's a VR app. And so you start with a spatial canvas and you can put anything on it. Like you can create your own shapes or, and I think this is probably...

The best thing about it is you can look through a massive database that is called Google Poly of low poly 3D models that you can quickly use to create and whip up scenes that you want to kind of create in VR to tell your story. I think that's a really nice tool for UX designers. And I'm quite excited about when it comes to AR. So Apple is really investing into AR and

I think it's part of the current beta and soon it will probably be released together with iOS 13. It's called Reality Composer and so it allows you to easily prototype and also I think create, like I think it's also meant as a tool for production AR experiences. Okay, interesting. Those are already really great tips, I think.

because especially like the prototyping and testing with AR and VR is like super interesting for me and I think for many people because if you're not a coder or a 3D artist then you definitely have some problems but those tools need your ex-designers and they need a way to prototype for it but we can't like

do normal wireframes because they don't even work pretty well for websites or apps. So we need to come up with better ideas to look more realistic. So, okay, really great tips with the tools. I'm going to link them in the show notes so people can check it out. So you already started to talk a little bit about augmented reality and this is something I'm really excited about.

Because what you said, like Apple is investing a lot in this technology and in the near future, we are not going to use phones anymore. We maybe have like smart contact lenses or things. How do you, are you already talking about those things? It's like in your team or how do you think about augmented reality? What do you think about like their opportunities? That we all know where it's going. Like what you already mentioned, like,

And even though that is probably very far away, the idea of true AR that either comes through like contact lenses or maybe something is even directly hooked into your brain. I don't know. I think that's what we're ultimately aiming for. But the current status of like this soft version of AR, I think we can already create so many

wonderful new solutions with that like whether that's trying out if this chair fits with my with my living room back home and so on that that's already like very valuable things for customers to imagine products or things in the space that they're in when we design for that i think it's important that we remember that when we're in when we're trying to augment

reality or a space we also need to involve that space i would say you can you can for example you can create a basketball game where you shoot hoops a basketball game where you can create a basketball game where you shoot hoops and you put everything on the table in front of you and you just flip some basketballs i don't think that that's like the best use of space but if you think about

maybe I need to move through the space to do something. There is like this idea of hide and seek when we have object recognition that we actually use the space and involve it. Use the opportunity that the story that we tell through AR is different for every environment that I use this app or experience in. I think that's super interesting. We're currently working on an app that is an AR app that is for

I think like toddlers kind of, to teach them soft skills, like friendship and human connection. And so there is this character in AR and first thing it does is it hides from you. And so you need to like search for it with your mobile phone. And I think that that's a very nice way of you moving and using the space in order to interact with this app

Unfortunately, I cannot tell more about it because it's still in production. Looking forward to try it someday, hopefully. And that's interesting what you just said, because it really depends on the use case. You know, there are so many apps out there where you think, do we actually need AR for this? So where do you think are really opportunities or problem we could solve with AR? I think you have different projects at Demodern, but do you think there are some general areas?

Off the top of my head, like two things come to mind. And one I think is fairly obvious. And that's when we talk about education. I personally believe VR is also very good at conveying educational experiences. But with AR, we get this relation with the real world. And if we think about kids these days and that they're

maybe a little bit too much behind the screen. It's maybe good when that screen at least takes in the real world, explains things as they can also like physically and tangibly interact with it. I think that's a really, there's a really big opportunity there. On the other hand, and I'm just gonna refer to a case study now that we kind of thought up a while ago. If we think about research,

retail experiences. So brick and mortar retail is not doing so great. We need to create things for these stores that draw people in again, that give them something that they cannot have at home. At the same time,

those places where the people are that should go into these stores are usually big cities, rents, and like selling space, like every square foot or square meter, no matter which one you take, it's super expensive. So you need to use this space efficiently. I think AR there can be used like in the sense of projection mapping. Like if we take a blank model of something, in our case, we took a

I think it was a Vans shoe or something like a sneaker. Map every model that we have onto it. We don't need to like put them all on the shelf and we can even allow for hyper personalization, which is this other kind of trend that's been going on for a while, but we can make people configure their own product on the spot, whether that's for Vans or Nike ID, whatever.

I think I saw it online. It looked really cool because they were also moving the shoe, but it stays on the shoe. So it was working pretty well. Yeah, it had a bit of latency still, but for a prototype. It was cool, yeah. Yeah, and imagine that you just have to try one pair of shoes and then you could map everything on it. It's the same brand, of course, but you don't have to switch between different models. Because this is really annoying. No one really wants to do that, I think. If we think about...

the future of how things are going to evolve in the next 10 to 15 years. I think for us as UX designers, many things are changing because of automation, also artificial intelligence and all those new technologies. So we are living in a very exciting time and

I think it's really interesting to talk about what would be the best way for us to get ready to not really like miss the best times or the education we need now to like be successful in the future. What do you think about this? That a lot of things are changing also on like a more global scale, I would say.

Of course, there will be new technologies and new discoveries in science and engineering. But we also have population that is still growing, resources that are depleting. Everything is in constant change. Our jobs as well, like jobs come and go. And even though I believe UX design in itself is not so prone to being wiped out, we need to...

we need to make sure that we redesign ourselves as designers all the time because the only thing that doesn't change will be changed and I know that this is like

This is said so often, but one thing that is timeless is that we will always have to work together and collaborate and learn how to work together to solve these fairly complex problems. And that together with an internal passion or drive to reinvent yourself, to learn, unlearn and relearn.

I think those are the tools that will help us as UX designers move into the future. And maybe in the future, we will not really, maybe we will relabel ourselves. Maybe we will not be UX designers anymore, but I don't know, emotion designers or something like that. You never know, or it will become more fractured that we all find our own domain. Like there is a domain for AI, one for AR. So you become UX designer plus a domain.

I think that could become a scenario. The other thing that goes hand in hand, I think is that if we look at the book from Don Norman, "The Design of Everyday Things," which is kind of like, it's like a little Bible for UX designers. It wasn't about technology all the time. It was just about everyday products and things. I think we need to go back to that a little bit. And also beyond that,

maybe, and consider that we're not just trying to solve things through technology, but more holistic and consider the world as a whole when we do our jobs. I think we definitely be moving away from our screen. We'll probably in the near future, screen time will still increase, but then at some point we will transcend and go beyond

the screen with like what we talked about before or with AR or like the true form of AR around the corner and also with artificial intelligence making strides or big steps. I think it's important to realize that we will be designing more holistic human experiences that are maybe less about moving pixels or defining where pixels should go and more about what information should be placed

when and where. Maybe at the same time, I believe that with the advance of AR, which might actually reach this point of being true and completely, let's call it like a natural layer, that might happen maybe in 15, 20 years. I think an interesting thing there is that the world itself, like we know it today,

and you and me or people, we might not change so much, but the way that we see the world and, and see each other, I think that's where the big changes, uh, will happen. Also how we see ourselves, um, or, uh,

maybe thinking even further how we express ourselves like if if everything is always or can always be superimposed by virtual expressions I can wear a hat and any hat I want and switch it on the fly and everyone else will see it but it's not really there it's like an Instagram filter that is always there so to say and I think that

that's kind of interesting. It's a bit weird and confusing maybe. Also because the world that you see or that anyone sees is not the same world maybe that I see. And so our experiences with the world will become different. I think there are so many new connections and things to think about in that space. These are the reasons that I think we'll never be out of a job as long as we stay excited.

And I really like what you said because you referred to the book "Design of Everyday Things". This really made me think: Of course we are going to design for the human being in the future as well. So, you know, the human being is going to stay the same. It was like before digitalization,

now or even in the far future the human being is going to stay the same with the same needs and desires and hopes and interesting to keep that in mind so yeah super interesting that you mentioned this because sometimes I think we tend to forget this

To jump in on that, I think when we are working as UX designers, with all the pressure surrounding us, we often focus on the average end customer as our user, so to say. I kind of have a problem with the word user in itself.

And that's our main stakeholder that we're designing for. We're forgetting about the long tail. And there are so many people, whether that's people with maybe with disabilities, like maybe they're blind or they're deaf, but also like then going like a few levels beyond that, like the world in itself, maybe we should consider

mother nature as a user of the products that we create and think how it affects society and the environment a bit more. I think that's also part of this thinking in a more holistic human experiences. The good thing there is, I believe that UX design as we know it today,

When we think about that, we spend probably still a lot of time making these wireframes, for example, we probably won't in the future. Like that's something that probably an AI can soon do better than us. And maybe the time that we save there, we can use it to more and more empathic again and truly understand the world and like pursue different paths to find a solution. Okay. And

And I think this was also a really great tip for young designers who don't really know where to focus or where to put a lot of effort and time in about the whole thing as an experience, about nature, the society, understanding people, the user, how...

do you do this? In the end, it's all about communication, talking to people, like trying to understand them, going different routes, also validating the ideas you have, not just with the people that are sitting next to you in the office, but with random people on the street, um,

I have to be honest, we don't do it, but I was listening to a talk from someone that works at Dropbox the other day. They had walk-in Wednesdays or something they call it. And basically they would put a sign on the door that said, yeah, if you feel like trying something new, just come in, you'll get a free coffee and a cookie or something like that. And just random people on the street could come in and test stuff out. And so they could validate it

not with like the perfect end customer or whoever but but like random people and I think that's important that we don't forget that that we're not that we're also designing for this for this long tail of people I did some like research where we just like went out but we look for specific people who

really like fit to our prototype we sometimes make it easy on our for ourselves whether we're constrained by time or budget or something like that i mean it's it's a human thing to do we take often the the path of less least resistance and that's really yeah that's a that's a good point and also a great tip i think for designers in general just talking to strangers sometimes

So do you have some resources? But do you have some other things you would recommend designers if they want to work with new technologies? Personally,

really enjoy reading medium articles. So a medium is like a big inspirational resource for me. I also found I use Slack a lot and we have this space for our agency, which is private. But for me, that's a very inspirational thing because I can actually look into the brains of other people and we share everything and like

There are many different tight-knit and friendly communities around design and UX design that you can join on Slack. And you have all these spaces that basically are a great curation of whatever is needed.

is making people excited on the internet. I think, yeah, Slack for me is a big thing. It comes to... Another thing for me is when we think about mostly about VR experiences, but all interactive experiences that try to tell a story or make the user...

tell a story for themselves, like story doing. I think it's super valuable, interesting and exciting to simply

pick one and see if you like it and also look at how they gamify things and how they build tensions and how they keep the player in this kind of state of constant interest for any story that you want to tell over time or like that the user participates in you you want to create this flow of tension between i feel like i achieved something new and that makes me feel good

And there is something next that I want to reach for. And if you play games, and I'm not even a big gamer, maybe a casual gamer, but I like it. And I think if you look a little bit deeper into how games are made, you can learn a lot about interactive storytelling, whether that's on the web or in AR or in VR or whatever.

Yeah, I think that's a really great tip. In the game industry, I think it's so interesting because people don't really want to go to the help section, they want to find it out themselves. So the usability aspect of games is super interesting and also what you said, like the gamification and make people really enjoy the whole thing.

and gaming is a pretty big industry at the moment and i would like to talk with you about another project PETA so for the like animal rights organization right and this was really interesting and special so maybe you could talk a little bit about this

That was a very cool project to do because it took VR, I think, to like a new level maybe and also in a very meaningful way. One of the biggest benefits about VR is this sense of immersion and that it's so incredibly good and conveying emotions or making people feel things. And what we wanted people to feel is basically...

what it is to step into the shoes of a guinea pig, a laboratory animal, a cow that is soon to be going to the slaughterhouse. We try to convey them in an experience that is guided by a little rabbit. You put on the VR headset and you're greeted by this rabbit. And the rabbit, it talks to you. It sees you and it

It does so. It's fully virtually made. It's hyper-realistic, but it's completely virtual. But behind it is a voice actor in a motion tracking suit. We translated human movement to a...

through the limbs, to the limbs of a rabbit and let it speak, let the artist speak through the rabbit with the visitor, so to say. The visitor is in a room where we could, it was a pop-up experience, where we can see what the visitor is wearing. And so it was especially interesting when they were, for example, wearing leather shoes. The rabbit would say something like, ah, it's nice to see that you're wearing one of my friends shoes.

And so the rabbit would then take you on a journey in another scene. You're like in the middle of a large field and you're surrounded. I'm not entirely sure how many farm animals, but like you're surrounded by cows and pigs and chickens. And

The rabbit is also there with you in that scene and he tells like... Well, he always uses the scene to tell a story and...

you have all these people, all these animals standing around you and staring at you and the rabbit says like: "Well, if you're a meat eater, this is about the amount of meat you will consume in your life." And it's like animals as far as you can see and that's like a very... that hits you as a person. And

it also ends and I think that that's a very nice touch where you are brought back into the real world so in the end in the in the virtual world the rabbit is always on this on this little stool and when he leaves he leaves a little envelope a little note for you and then when you take off the VR glasses that that note is right there in front of you so we kind of like

connected what happens inside the VR experience with what's outside. That was a really nice project to work on.

Yeah, I really especially like projects that try to talk about those kind of things at the moment because we like put it away as far as we can and we haven't experienced it. We cannot really imagine it even though if we saw some videos it's not the same. If people want to follow you or get some more information about those topics, where can they find you?

They can find me on Twitter. You can always shoot me a question there. I guess the link will be in the description. You can always write me an email. That's also fine. And if you're ever in Hamburg, stop by. We're open every day or like every workday. You can have a coffee. You can experience some of the things that we created and put our hearts into. Yeah. And if you come after five, there might even be a beer.

Yeah. Okay, that sounds great. So really good, really good final thoughts, I think. Thank you so much for being here. I think it was so, so interesting to hear your experiences, all your thoughts about those technologies. So thank you so much for sharing all of those things with us. It was really, really nice. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Let me know if you have any feedback or recommendations.

I wish you a great day and hear you in the future.

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