31. Service Design 101 (feat. Thomas Wilson, UXMC, Senior Principal Service Designer & Strategist)
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This is the Nielsen Norman Group UX Podcast. I'm Therese Fessenden. UX is a broad term. Yes, it means user experience, but if you've been listening for a while, then you know that user experiences aren't limited to digital designs. And the best ones are typically a careful orchestration of many kinds of interactions—physical, digital, interpersonal. So to honor the range of experiences and types of design work in our field, we're going

We'll be using the next few episodes sharing interviews that we've had with members of our UX Master Certified community who are applying UX principles to their work in different ways. Today, we'll be featuring a type of design that's less focused on visual appearances and more focused on untangling really gnarly, complex problems, service design. To do that, we'll be sharing an interview we had with UX Master Certified Thomas Wilson.

Thomas is a senior principal service designer and strategist at UnitedHealthcare, who spent the last 13 years in the service design space. In this episode, we discuss what service design is, how Thomas got into this field, and what makes the work so challenging, but also so rewarding. So without further delay, here's Thomas.

So Thomas, I'm excited to have you here. I'm excited to have you tell us a little bit about your work and especially around service design, which is a field that's growing rapidly as far as like a field that is adjacent to slash related to UX. So I'm excited to kind of dissect that relationship a little bit and learn a bit about you. So before we get into that,

you know, how you got here. I would love to sort of dissect what service design is. Cause I think we have a number of folks who may have heard of this term, but don't really know what service design is and, you know, maybe want to know a bit more. So how would you define it? That's a great question. And if you ask 20 different people, they'd probably give you 20 different answers. And if you ask people who are like in the European countries, especially like the Scandinavian countries and the Nordic countries, they,

they would definitely give you a different answer than folks in the United States would because we're kind of functioning at different levels and service design is less mature over here than it is there. But I would define it, my definition would be that service design is kind of like, it's the research and analysis and design of those choreography of interactive touch points that customers have within a system or service.

It's all about solving problems and trying to create positive outcomes for customers, employees and the organization. You know, it spans everything from systems design to business design, venture design, organizational design, CX, EX and as you previously mentioned, UX design.

and any aspect or iteration of like innovation in designing new products and services. And so really it's all about customers, right? It's about customers and business and merging those things. And so in my personal philosophy, the only type of persona or archetype that really matters is a real one, right? And the only type of service experience that matters is

are the ones that consumers and customers and employees are actually having. And so we map those things to better understand those pain points so that we can provide a more preferred solution for the future.

And so, you know, we're in a service economy right now. Right. And everything is a service, including software. That's that's where SaaS comes from. Right. Software as a service. Yeah. I kind of laughed a little bit when you mentioned that depending on who you ask, you might get 20 different definitions because I feel like there's a constant debate in like LinkedIn, for example, where some people will be like, well, service design is like more commonplace.

all encapsulating the new X's and then other UXers are like, well, UX captures services. And there's always sort of this like one upping of whose domain is like more responsible. And I always kind of laugh a bit at this, not because I don't think it's appropriate or, you know, accurate. Cause I think both of these kind of schools of thought have some level of truth to them. But, but what you mentioned, the sort of orchestration of, of,

all of these moving pieces, which includes employees, which includes, you know, all of these maybe third party partners and systems and making it something that works as like an ecosystem. And that delivers an experience to customers. Like I definitely can see that as at least that's how I see these as coexisting. Like neither is more important. They're, they're both essential ingredients to delivering like a good service. So,

How did you discover this? Have you always been in service design or have you sort of gotten into this space from an adjacent field? No. So it's funny that you ask because I started off

being a visual designer and a writer and, you know, kind of doing that art director, creative director track, you know what I mean? We're talking, I don't want to age myself, but in the early nineties, I started off doing that kind of routine. And when I started going to school, there wasn't a lot of availability to understand like human factors and

You know, there's certainly I had certainly never heard of service design at that point, but not even UX. You know, it wasn't even a thing. And so I started off doing that visual design stuff. And, you know, in the nascent years of the web, because I moved from Miami where I was doing like high fashion, I worked literally for Burdines and Bloomingdale's, which is now Macy's.

And I was airbrushing tattoos and piercings off of models, you know what I mean, on Christmas Eve and doing stuff on sunsparks and Chemex and Unix systems. And I came back to Houston and there was none of that kind of work. And in Houston, you have a lot of oil and gas, petrochemicals.

environmental stuff, and you have healthcare. That's basically the big industries there. And so I started off doing for the oil and gas industry, I started getting into like doing schematics and diagramming and mapping for GUI devices and interfaces, you know, back then it was called graphical user interfaces, GUI.

And doing that HMI work and like SCADA controls and SCADA requirements, I started working on things like nuclear reactors and durators and various types of electronics like heat exchangers and pumps and then medical devices. And then to like more customer facing things like kiosks, like interactive kiosks inside of retail environments. And just understanding those form factors, touch target sizes and, you know, things like

the average height of American males that would be working in a factory that would be touching the device that I'm making. Like I started learning those types of things and geeking out on them just naturally. And so I didn't really know it was called a thing. I just knew that I wasn't as fascinated with gradients and fonts and things like that, that some of my counterparts and friends were, and I was more interested in how things work. And so

I started doing a lot of employee experience design as well. So having your feet in both of those worlds, it really started pushing me more that, you know, into that direction of understanding like brand marketing service, digital marketing,

employee experiences, being inquisitive about collecting data on those people, places, partners, props, and processes, and how that stuff works. And just like you mentioned a second ago, I really got immersed in wanting to understand that ecosystem. And when I started going more towards just doing software, like the early 2000s,

Merging the customer experience and getting those customer requirements or user requirements with the business needs and business requirements like BRDs and distilling those down into product needs and product requirements. That's what it all kind of became very clear that I was doing well.

more than just visual design, more than just UX, more than just UI. You know, mapping all of these things, that's what I really got fascinated about, you know, and started hearing the term service design was probably the early 2000s. Yeah, and like the more I think about it, I feel...

it seems like service design is a relatively new discipline, at least as far as what we've been covering, because we do have our service blueprinting class at NNG. And it's a class I share with Sarah Gibbons and a couple other folks. And we talk a little bit. It's funny that classes evolved. We used to talk a lot more about the history of service design and covering some of the very early papers that came out in like Harvard Business Review. And that was like the 80s, which I mean, to some,

Some who are entering the industry, that might seem like it's an older field, but it's really not. It's still relatively new compared to a lot of other disciplines that are adjacent to it. So in many ways, it does seem like it's something that's still growing. And like you're saying, there are some areas of the world, some industries that maybe have more service design maturity in the sense that they've had more time to establish the best practices.

And others are just getting their feet wet and even realizing that this is something you can do. And it's really kind of a fun time to be involved in a way. It's exciting, but it's also a little bit nerve wracking to some degree. But yeah, it's new to most of the larger organizations in the United States of America. And like I said, we're still doing it a little bit more.

um, weirder and not at the top of our license. Uh, and so there's a lot of, there's a lot of, um, evangelizing and proselytizing that has to go along with that so that we can get to a place where it's a little bit more respected like it is in, you know, places like, uh, you know, Germany and our Scandinavian countries. Um, they, they really do respect it over there and they, they do it well and it's valued.

Yeah, yeah. And I definitely love to kind of explore that side of things in just a moment. But you kind of mentioned that right now there's a lot of figuring things out, for lack of a better way to phrase it, in the U.S., where we're still figuring out what is best practice for us and how can we make this work for us.

And of course, as a result, we often learn a lot in the process where there might be things that we realize, wow, we got that all wrong or, oh, maybe we got that part right. But what do you think is the biggest misconception that people tend to have with service design? What are like the biggest, I would say, misunderstandings? That service designers are or should be product designers. They should be UI designers that get down in the weeds.

with heavy lifting or iterative UI incrementalism, or that they should be one aspect, one leg of the three-legged stool analogy. Service designers should, in my opinion, most people's opinions, of course, answer directly to the business first. They should answer to the business, or if they need to be on a team or governed by

a specific business unit, it should probably be customer experience. Second, or be on innovation or flex teams that answer to those folks, answer to business and portfolio managers or some type of design leadership. Where it gets problematic is where it's not understood and sometimes even not to be

You know, adversarial, but it's not even respected. That makes things a little bit harder if you're in a large organization, that if it's not put in the right place or context and if it isn't supported, that will be difficult for service designers to operate at the top of their license and to function for the business and for the customers.

You know, what immediately comes to mind when you mentioned like not respected, and I certainly don't want to throw all of my public sector buddies under the bus, but when thinking about how a lot of large organizations, federal entities or otherwise, there tends to be this sort of belief that, well, they're employees, like, you know, they're designing whatever they need to design for their teams. Like they're not users. We don't need to study them. We don't need to

do a deep dive here. Like they're just going to use whatever we tell them to use. Right. And there's often like this lack of regard or at least like lack of understanding the value of doing research with employees. So.

I would argue that it's a lack of respect intrinsically. One of the most important things that when we understand why human-centered designers and service designers design and the methods that we do, it's out of love. It's out of love and respect for customers because we see ourselves in them. And that's really what empathy is rooted in, right? It's a secondary notion, empathy. It's rooted in love.

And so if you're not doing this for the love of solving problems for humans, you're probably doing it for the wrong reasons. And that's one of the most things that's challenging

about what you just asked me is it's when you don't have that buy-in or support from leadership and they don't understand it or they don't respect the idea that the majority of what a service designer does is research, right? You're researching and then you're mapping the things that you're finding out and you're getting that shared consensus. And so,

And so that notion that they should be isolated or distributed among teams are governed by PMs. And when businesses are really immature and they do that sort of stuff and they don't understand the value and promise of service design or strategy, you know, allows to work at the top of our license, then they're just not getting the very best from what we're capable of. And the real losers in that framework are the customers, unfortunately.

Yeah, and I actually love to unpack the idea of the word customer too, because in service design, you've got a lot of people who could be considered customers, right? We've got end users, which in UX we get- Employees, yeah. Yeah, like you've got employees who could be end users in some cases, or you can have agents who are working in a system that customers also see. And you might have two people working in the same system, but seeing very different views or very different groups of information.

And in a way, we're sort of like neglecting half or more of an experience by not designing for employees in the process and having that same kind of care and attention and empathy for coworkers or people who may not be immediately on our team, but people who are inevitably working on these systems together.

Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You have, you have a lot of different people in that lexicon, right? You have like service customers, you have a service users, you have the front stage service employees. Like when you start talking about like, like blueprinting, right? You have the backstage service and employees, you have partner service employees, you have, you know, all,

all of that stuff. And understanding the difference between CX, EX, UX. It's a, it's a, they're all just humans, right? Absolutely. And it's, you mentioned service blueprinting and what comes to mind for me is actually this debate I've seen recently. And,

I would love your thoughts on it, but it has to do with the idea of service design is not service blueprinting. And service blueprinting is certainly a tool of service design. Oh, sure. It's an artifact. So I would love your thoughts on how service blueprinting kind of fits into what you typically do, say at UnitedHealthcare or other jobs that you've had as a service designer.

Sure. So I think there's a holy trifecta of like a persona archetype, how that persona or archetype group is visualized via their journey, right? And so that top piece of the journey, the top lens would be that persona or the archetype group and how they're going through a specific use case or scenario, right?

and solving a problem or how they're going about their whatever their job to be done is or experience that they're having and then that top part of the journey goes to the feeds into and and is a part of the the blueprint right at the top of the blueprint and then you do of course all the the the the um the the front stage and backstage and all of that stuff

So when you look at those three things, what those things are rooted in are the hero's journey, the hero's journey. And now I'm going to get a little metaphysical and a little bit, you know, numinous. So, but like Joseph Campbell, Carl Jung, this is where we get these ideas from.

And what we're doing here is we're doing one of the oldest things that you can do. We've dated some of these things back as far as 10,000 years, but a lot of the things that we're, that we're discovering in tombs inside of pyramids and things like this, there are blueprinting types of scenarios, crazy sixes, crazy eight storyboards, personas, uh,

icons and glyphs, semiotics, all of this stuff is on the wall of pyramids. And so we've been telling stories about humans and what we do here and in the afterlife for thousands of years. And so this notion of storytelling isn't new. And I don't think service design or human-centered design is really new. I think that we're using these artifacts

to tell stories so that we can relate to one another and so that we can build consensus. And that's why I mentioned previously, this is rooted in love because when you have a passion for solving problems for human beings, you're going to tell their stories with, with more than just empathy. You know what I mean? Um,

You're going to want to get every single detail because those are the, like I said previously, those are the stories that matter. Those are the journeys that matter are the ones that people are actually having. So one of my biggest peeves when I'm like training folks or teaching anything to do with service design or when I see these artifacts is,

is if it's not a real person or at least a group of people that have very similar experiences like an archetype bucket,

I don't like those mega maps that have tons of stuff in them and there's no human in it. And you're just saying this is how a pregnancy occurs or this is how someone goes and shops at the grocery store. Well, who's that someone? You know, hundreds of millions of people buy groceries every day. Hundreds of millions of people have babies. Everyone doesn't have the same experience in a scenario like that.

And so that's the most critical thing is you have to tell those stories. And the way that we do it is with those artifacts and many more. There's a lot of different types of mapping, right? There's ecosystem mapping. There's, you know, use flow diagramming and mapping. There's lots of different types of mapping. But those main three really give you a good idea

picture of a specific human going through a specific thing, right? A scenario. Yeah, absolutely. And I think you bring up this really important point, which is the idea of storytelling. It's not really this optional skill to have in the field of design in general, right? The whole point is not to be able to say, oh, I designed something, now I'm going to tell people about it, but rather to

the ability to construct a story, to understand what journey someone is actually going through. That's where you're going to find that enlightenment and those great ideas that actually have impact. And it's funny you bring up the point of the, or the mega maps or the other type of map that often gets on my nerves sometimes is the map that's so general because we want to capture all of the customers that we have. That's what I was just talking about is that,

It's not a specific to a specific human going through a specific thing. It's just this generalized thing. And frankly, there's only two reasons why people make those maps. Number one is out of ignorance. And number two is because they work in an environment where they're not being allowed to go get research.

And that goes back to what I was saying before in one of the places that's problematic. When you're working in a product environment and basically it becomes the PM's request for a service designer to go map out their idea and prove it. And basically they look at it like a form of validation, like go map this thing out to be true. And it's like you have no research to confirm that that A is even a good idea or B that, you know what I mean? It would ever happen. Yeah.

And that's when it gets problematic. And I see that a lot. Definitely. And also, I think there's a lot of pressure, too, because, I mean, these efforts, like you were saying earlier, they require research. They require a lot of information. And that takes time. That naturally takes time.

time, energy, investment, resources. And I think there's often this sort of fear of expending these resources on something like a map when it's like, why would I spend it on a map when I can just put it toward a product or to developing something? And that can be a real issue, right? Because we might actually be setting ourselves up to like do a lot of busy design work as opposed to targeted design work, right? Yeah.

Right. Yeah. It's very wasteful. It's very wasteful. And it's actually far more financially consuming and involved to do it poorly than it is to do it right and invest a little bit of time on the front end. We could actually do an entire podcast on product first and waste and the, you know, the viability and importance of research and service design and UX design on the front end of a project. But you'd probably need a couple of hours. We would need to take breaks.

Yeah. Oh, I'm sure others listening will agree with that statement. Yes. But, but yeah, I mean, I bring that up just because I, on the one hand, you need the value and the respect for the discipline in order to be able to do the work right. And at

at the same time doing the work right can often earn the respect and the value acknowledgement that can sometimes arise, like once people have seen the value. So it can kind of be a catch-22 and kind of frustrating at times. Oh, believe me. So I'm curious then, you know, what has been most helpful to you, you know, as you've grown in your career? What has really helped you, you know, kind of take your work to the next level?

That's a great question. You know what? And it's an easy one too. And reading. I read a lot and I follow a vast variety of smart people just like you, like Don Norman, Jacob Nielsen. But I follow a vast variety of smart people and I read a lot, like members of the Service Design Network.

So I read a lot of peers and a lot of people that came before me. I also follow and read people like Erica Hall, who's one of my favorite researchers and strategists. I'm sure you know who she is. Adam St. John Lawrence and Mark Stickdorn, both very smart guys. Of course, they've written very, very well-known and famous books. Tom

Tony Olwick, Bob Moesta, both those guys, JTPD guys. And I follow some really intelligent product management folks too. So I don't just stick to like service designer researchers. I follow everyone. And I really like some product management folks like John Cutler, Powell Hearn. I've also been fortunate enough to make some

virtual friends and share information with people like Megan Miller, who is actually going to come speak at our design hour in a couple of weeks. There's a fellow Austinite named Douglas Ferguson, and there's some behavioral design folks like BJ Fogg and

Dan Ehrlich and you know those guys and Robert Meza yeah so I really like following those people reading what they have to say reading books from them and I just think that it helps a

what other people have been through, how they map experiences, how they solve problems. It helps identify with challenges that are surfacing in their lives. And if I'm seeing them in mine too, it helps me to just know that I'm not alone and I'm not crazy. You know what I mean?

Because we're all struggling with some of the same things, right? And so it helps when you see someone who's more established or makes a hell of a lot more money than you or is very well known. And they're saying the same things that you're saying and seeing. And so that's really my secret sauce is read and follow smart people. Read a lot. Consume information. Yeah. And I think you bring up a really important point too. It's not just reading. I mean, yes, reading fellow researchers work, I feel like is really helpful because first of all, they're doing research with lots of different types of

employees, customers, et cetera. Like they have a lot of perspectives just on that

from that alone, but they also can share a lot about their methods, about what's worked for them, what they found maybe not so helpful, especially when it comes to theory versus practice. Because obviously there are things that might be amazing to do in theory, but when it comes to actual resource constraints or time constraints that you have, then, well, yeah, maybe there are certain things that have to go by the wayside in order to actually get work done, right? So

So that certainly can be really beneficial. But I think there's also some value too in just reading about the perspectives of others, like you're saying, right? Getting into the minds of others and understanding these different lifestyles or different ways of living. And the more you can get familiar with

alternate ways of living other than yours or alternate perspectives other than yours. It might be deeply uncomfortable in the moment, but it will give you so much more to think about as you're creating some of these deliverables and as you're creating some of these designs and suggesting changes to processes and stuff. Right, right. Yeah. So what would

you say is like the thing that you love most, but if you had to point to like a couple things that really make this a field that you enjoy being part of, what are those things? Yeah, it's, I, that's a, that's a really great question too. So I love that moment when you have this holistic view of an ecosystem and you can see all of its working and connected parts and

You know, because you've mapped and diagrammed and you've been able to understand what those dependencies and relationships are. Right. And you can see those patterns and pain points and the breakdowns in service. But you also know that when you're in a mature environment and people respect and value design and service design, it can be a great unifier across divisions, across lines of business, across companies.

different stakeholders. And the underlying theme of it is to build consensus. You know what I mean? And to understand where to play, what to design, what to build,

If you really want to understand the passion of most service designers, I think, and myself included, it's about ecosystems. And if you look at a brain, if you understand the mind-body analogy, and your brain is kind of like a business, right? You've got that frontal lobe, which is kind of like the thinking, speaking, memory stuff.

And that can be your C-suite, right? Your perinatal lobe, your language, your touch, your feel, that would be like your UX, right? And occipital lobe and the cerebellum, your balance, coordination, vision, perception, color, all that stuff. That can be

more like product or in your temporal lobe, you're hearing learning feelings. That's kind of like your marketing, right? When you look at the different parts of the brain, they're just like different aspects of a business. But when you start talking about what it is that we, what we provide to our customers, it's more like a nervous system.

And so when you understand like how a nervous system diagram kind of looks like, imagine something like you have a 4G or 5G cable or satellite or your Wi-Fi connection, right? And that is all connected to computers, mobile devices, anything with an IPv6 connection. And those are like nerve endings, right? Those touch points for a customer. And everything that we do is about that knowledge management of data that we're collecting from those endpoints.

and so that we can provide a better service and better products for our customers. You know, when we collect that data and we bring it back to the brain, it has to be centralized and it has to be accurate and scrubbed, right? And it has to inform some type of personalization and self-service. Yeah, and I think kind of

harkens back to what you mentioned earlier, which is, I mean, nothing, again, nothing against visual design. I think visual design is crucial. It's the way that we, you know, communicate the way that people see our designs and the way that we can manipulate attention toward what we need people to look at. So,

I think there really is a sort of fascinating aspect to really dissecting these ecosystems of products, people, props, right? All of these different systems and processes, right? There's a lot to...

untangle in these ecosystems, in these networks of support. And often if you like really difficult problems, like if you're someone who walks up to a broken vacuum cleaner and you're like, I need to take this apart as opposed to, I'd rather just throw the thing out and buy a new one, right? I mean, obviously there might be a point where you're trying to take this apart, you kind of lose your mind, but

It's in that investigative process, in that, you know, un-piecing and re-piecing together. If you enjoy that sort of thing, service design is absolutely a field that allows you to do that and to live in this space of ambiguity and questions and also of learning, right? So I can definitely see the excitement in that and the passion in that. It's funny that you bring that analogy up because...

Trust me when I tell you, everyone who is in service design or UX, our significant others absolutely hate us because of what we do. Because you can't go to a checkout. You can't walk through a line. You can't experience a service. You can't run your car through a POS system. You can't just go to a car wash without critiquing the health of the business.

oh, the button's on the wrong place. Oh, this affordance would be better if it were down here. It would be better if it was this color. You know, my wife hates that stuff. Like, we'll be just trying to check out and buy food. And I'm like, well, look, honey, let me show you. She's like, I know, I know it sucks. Give me your breakfast. You see it everywhere. You do. And on the one hand, it's fun because then it gives you ideas for like, huh, this reminds me of a work problem or this reminds me of something else I'm working on. And maybe this could be

an analogy that I can now use as a way to kind of think through these problems. So I guess on that note, like obviously there are some people who are like seasoned service designers who might relate to a lot of what we're talking about, but there might also be some folks who are thinking that maybe this is where I want to take my career. - I would reiterate, read and consume a lot of information. There's a lot of things out there that aren't very expensive. You can get on Udemy for virtually nothing.

and learn. You can take classes at NNG. You can take classes at IDO. You can do all sorts of stuff for continuing education. There's also interactiondesign.org. That's a great place to learn. That's very inexpensive. But just know that other people have come before you, and there's a lot to glean from that. And

smart people really love to share their wisdom. They're not trying to make a million dollars off of you or hustle you. Really smart people want to share. And so, yes, they might have classes that cost money and it might be considerable cost, but there's also a lot of free videos out there. NNG, IDEO, you have YouTube channels. There's tons of stuff up there that you can Google just about anything.

anything on the NNG site and it doesn't matter if it's personas or blueprints or how to research, you can find it on there. You'd be surprised how many people are sharing this information. There's also Mark Fontaine, that service design show. Go watch his YouTube channel because he talks to people all the time and has great content.

If you're just starting out and you have the time and you have the money and you're young and you can move around, go to a college like SCAD. Savannah

College of Art and Design has really come a long way, especially in the last 10 or 15 years as far as their offerings. And now it is really a great service design, UX design, everything, product design school. So if you can afford to do that, go do that. But I would caution too, like gently, but stay away from this business if you're attracted to six-figure salaries, if you think that's what it's about. If you've seen stock photography of people playing

with stickies and cause that's not what it's about. It's, it's, it's not about playing around and, and fig jam with cupcake and unicorn and lollipop emojis. And I see a lot of that, a lot of people that are like coming in for all the wrong reasons and,

They think it's about fun and games, and it really isn't. I want to caution you, this is a mostly thankless job. And more often than not, fighting for people you'll never really know other than if you get the opportunity to research them and do ethnography or interviews, and you're going to be solving problems for them and finding pains and gaps.

And you're going to be in meetings and war rooms and in message threads where you're fighting for them and representing them with people who have different agendas than you or your customers have. So if you don't understand the politics behind this work and if you don't understand that it's really about deep investigation and curiosity and it's about learning and constant negotiation,

and you're going to get your feelings hurt. And so the main thing is what we mentioned previously is it's that storytelling for solving human pain points and systems. And it's not about money or glory or accolades. And we really do do this for the love of humans. Yeah. I think that's a really fantastic way to wrap up the episode because I don't think I can top that. And

You know, really, if you like complex problems and you love

learning about people, this is a great field for you. And like Thomas said, I mean, and kind of shameless plug about our YouTube videos, you know, even if you don't want to come to one of our classes, although I'll certainly be happy to see you there. But, you know, we do have YouTube videos. We have free articles. Feel free to check out our free stuff because it's a great place to get started if you're not ready to dive in with both feet. So Thomas, if anyone wants to, if anyone wants to follow you and your work, where could you point people to?

Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm easy to find. I'm usually talking smack about service design and UX and the value of research. You can find me and I'm always pretty active. I post on there pretty regularly. I have a pretty decent presence. So get on there, follow me, ask me questions. If you want to know how I do anything, I will usually take the time if I can find it to set up a meeting with you, a Zoom call and show you how I do things. So

Reach out. We'll definitely include, you know, a link to that LinkedIn in our episode notes. And for any of the other big names and research that you've shared, we'll also include some links to those great thinkers as well. All right. Thank you. Yeah, no problem. Have a great day. That was Thomas Wilson. You can find links to learn more about him and other resources in the show notes. But also keep in mind that our website has a growing body of knowledge about service blueprinting and service design.

And don't forget, we do have that UX certification course on service blueprinting. To learn more about any of that, check out our website, www.nngroup.com. That's N-N-G-R-O-U-P dot com.

Finally, if you want to get the next episode lined up and downloaded on your listening platform, make sure to follow or subscribe to our podcast. This episode was hosted and produced by me, Therese Fessenden. All editing and post-production is by Jonas Zellner. Music is by Tiny Music and Dresden the Flamingo. That's it for today. Until next time, remember, keep it simple.