#451 – Rick Spence: CIA, KGB, Illuminati, Secret Societies, Cults & Conspiracies
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The following is a conversation with rick spence, a historian specializing in history of intelligence agencies, espied, secret societies, conspiracies that are cult and military history. And now a quick few second mention of sponsor. Check them out in the description is the best way to support this podcast.

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You have written and lectured about serial killers, secret societies, courts and intelligence agency. So we can basically begin at any of these fascinating topics. But let's begin with intelligence agencies, which has been the most powerful intelligence agency in history.

the most powerful intelligence agency in history. I mean, an interesting question. I say probably in terms of historical longevity and consistency of performance that the russian intelligence services now said to say the K, G, B specifically.

But the russian intelligence services going back to the zest period are consistently pretty good, not inevitable. None of them are. Course, there's a common western way of looking at anything russian very often.

I think it's still the case. Russians reviewed in one of two ways. Either they are bumbling idiots or their dialogues clever. No sort of middle ound. And you can find both of those examples in this.

So when I member, that is that if you're looking at the modern S V R or F S B, which are just two different organizations that used to be part of the one big K G B or the gb or its predecessors, the check, uh, you're really going back to the late one thousand and century and the imperial russian intelligence security service, generally known as the OK rona or ochrony, it's really the department of police, and they special corve john darm. Their primary job was protecting the imperial regime and protecting IT against imperial or other interior enemies, revolutionaries with the most part. And I got very, very good at that by correcting people within those movements involving and recruiting informers.

Ogan provocator res. In fact, they excelled that the ogan provocator person you place in an organization cost trouble, usually modo over them into a position of leadership. And they provoke actions that can then allow you to crack down of them, that is, many sort of lr, or bring the target organization into any illegal, legal or open status that I can be more effectively suppressed.

They are very good at that. So good that by the early twenty years century, in the years proceeding, the russian revolution in one thousand hundred and seventeen, they had effectively infiltrated every radical party, bulch vx, menchov x sr, great and small, and placed people in positions of influence and leadership. So the point that arguably that is you can debate this, and I think the whole they could largely dictate what those parties did.

Nothing was discussed at any central committee meeting of any revolutionary group that the chronic was an immediately aware, and they often had people in positions to influence what those decisions were. Course, that raises an interesting question, is that if they were that good, and they had infiltrated and inevitably controlled most of the opposition, then how did the regime get overthrown by revolutionaries? The answer to that is that IT wasn't overthrown by revolutionary IT was overthrowing by politicians that would then take us into A D two or into russian history.

But now I just leave IT with this. If you look at one thousand seventeen, and you look closely, this is one of the things I always tell my students, is that there are two russian revolutions in nineteen seventeen. There's the first one in marcha, depending on your calendar, that overthrows, Nicholas the second revolutionaries are really not involved with.

That bulch vics in a, where A, B, C, roski in land, or know where to b, have anything to do with that. There has to do effective with a political conspiracy within the russian parliament, the duma, to unseat an emperor they thought was, you know, bungling the war and was essentially a loser to begin with. And IT was a call data, a parliamentary cool data, the temporary or provisional government that that revolution put in power was the one overthrowing by london eight months later.

And that government was essentially one dominated by moderate socialists, because the government that very quickly sort of turned to the left. Now, the guy we associate with that is Alexander currency. Alex ander krenski was a russian socialist politician.

He was the quail I dictator of that regime. He is the person, not the zar, who's overthrown by lena. So the the revolutionary and did not prove to be the fatal threat to the ZARA regime. IT was the areas political system itself that did that. What then transpired was that the chronic and its method in many of his agents then immediately segway over into the new soviet security services.

So one of the first things that landed in december one thousand, nine and seventeen, within a month of seizing ing power since the hold on power was tenuous at best, was that how he require some kind of organization to infiltrate, suppress those pesky counter revolutionaries in foreign imperialists and all of the other enemies that we have. And so the extraordinary commission to combat counter revolution and sabotage that chaka was formed, you put a veteran bolger vic feeling to digin ski at the head of that, someone you could politically rely upon, but doesn't n't keep built these organization essentially out of the crown I made the out. There are all of these informer setting around with nothing, nothing to do and they were employed um in the early twenties the kind of ranking file of the chick a might have been eighty to ninety percent former imperial officials.

Those are gradually decreased over time. So why would they do what they were professionals. They also needed to eat and and things for somewhat precarious.

So if your job is to be an organ provocator or your job is to infiltrate targeted organizations and lead to you do that for whoever pays you, that's part of the professionalism which goes in and under the soviets. The sov intelligence services are also very good at that. They are very good at infiltrating people into opposing organizations.

And I guess the one example I would give to demonstrate that of the cambridge five, the british traders, so its standpoint, he rose, who were recruiting, not of the most notably kim filby guy burgers on a mclain, Anthony y. Blunt, there may been, well, more than five, but yeah, I wasn't bad out of just cambridge. And then placing those people in high positions.

The the ultimate goal, of course, is to get your people into positions of leadership and influence in the opposing intelligence service. And so they did because that i'll fell apart. They ended up, and no, you'll be ended up living the last part of his life in exile and moscow, but they out their moneys worth out of him.

And you can also find this in kgb infiltration of the CIA, the FBI, the old rich aims, handsome cases. Of course, we, we were infiltrated by we. I mean, the americans in the west managed to infiltrate our moves as well. But if he came out, someone could dispute this. But I think if you we're going to come down to a kind of like a who had the most moles super bowl, probably the obvious would come somewhat ahead that so the scale .

of the infiltration tion, the number of people and the skill of IT is a case to be made that the krona and the chaka orchestrated both the components of the russian revolution as you describe them.

Well, there's an interesting question for me. I think there are all kinds of questions about this I made one of the questions is whether not lindon was an okoro a agent. okay.

I ve just said herrick, uh, some people do that quite often because I am a heroic and proud of IT. great. why? Why would you possibly say that liming could have bit in ocracoke? Well, let's look what he managed to do.

So you had coming into the twenty years century A A single il ominous, a single marxist movement, the russian's social democratic labour party and bull chavez and manchac x majority, its and minority is are merely factions of that party. And they always agreed that they were all marxists. And we we all believe in die electrical materialism.

And the rise of that, we're we're all socialist camera. Uh, the difference is the the tactical means by which one would obtain this. And what leni wanted was A A militant small scale vanguard party.

What a revolution. What did the cease power, cease control of the state? And once you have the state, then you induce socialism from above. Who reas the majority of people is so called minimum x the minority I, who are ugly enough, the vast majority of the party. That's one of the first things.

How do you lose that argument? Okay, how how the how does the minority get to grab the name majority ice? But lin did that.

So what let I wanted was A A conspirator, oral party of committed revolution, areas that would plot and scheme and undermine that, eventually seize control of the state and induce socialism from above. There were other russian marches who that that sounded vegging, totalitarian and not really democratic, not even terribly socialist. And they oppose that ineffectively from the beginning, outmaneuvered every step of the way.

The mantrip ics are a case study in failure of a political organza that too will be harrick to some people. But look, they lost now. So what linning managed to do, starting around nineteen, no three, continuing under this, is he managed to divide to take what had been a single march, this party, and split IT into angry, contending factions.

Because he, in his boxx rn, one side advocating a much more militant conspiratorial policy. The discommoding latest manchester were over in the other, in in between, where a lot of people really didn't know who are they stood on this. I mean, sometimes they kind of agree that he seems to making sense today. No, no, I I don't think he's making sense in that day, but but he managed to completely disunion y this organization.

Now who could possibly have seen benefit in that they were grown up now, whether or not they put him up to IT, whether or not in some way they helped move him into a position of leadership, or encourage IT or encourage IT through people around him, whether he was a waiting or unwitting agent of azara secret police, he certainly accomplished exactly what I was they wanted. And I find that suspicious is one of those things that it's it's so convenient in ways that i'm not necessarily sure that was an accident is also this whole question to me is to what was going on within the ochrony itself. And this is one of these questions when I come to the later about how intelligence agencies interact or serve the governments to which they are theoretically subordinate.

They do tend to acquire great deal of influence and power after their main job is to collect information. And that information could be about all kinds of things, including people within the government structure itself. And they also now had a leverage, that information in a way to get people to do what you want them to do.

So an argument can be made, again, an argument, not a fact, merely an opinion, which is mostly with histories made out of opinions, is at at some point between about nineteen, one hundred, one thousand and seventeen people in the krona. We're playing their own game. And that game took them in a direction which meant that continued loyalty to the emperor, specifically to nicolas the second, was no longer part of that.

To me, anyway, IT seems almost during the events of nineteen and seventeen, that one you had an organization that was very effective. Point IT did that suddenly just becomes ineffective, doesn't really disappear. These things don't go away because IT will reappear as the ocha, basically fairly quickly. But IT raises the question that we used to want degree. There were people within the organization who allowed events to take the course they wished.

I was wonder how much deliberate planning there is within an organisation like a krona? Or if there is kind of a distributed intelligence that happens.

But one of the key elements at any kind of intelligence, organizational or Operation, is compartmentalise ation need to know. So rather, do you have occasion or everybody, everybody in an executive, physical, all brought into a big corporate meeting. And we discuss all of the secret Operations that are going on.

Now you never do that. Only a very limited number of people should know about that. If you have a person who is a case of a serious controlling agency is the only when you should know these people are possibly his immediate superiors.

But no way do you want that to become a knowledge. So information within the organization itself is compartmentalise ed. So you don't need everybody to be in on IT.

You don't even be necessarily the people who are nominally at the top for is the ochrony, the real boss of the aquino was the imperial ministry of the interior. The minister, the interior, in fact. But the minister, the interior had no real effective control over this at all.

I mean, to the point was that that one point early on, they actually organized the assassination of their own boss. They have their agents among the revolutionaries killed the minister, the interior, because he dispute, be replaced by another one. He is an imperial democrat.

He's not really part of there organization in. It's like a director of an intelligence said to see appointed by the president. Maybe he's part of the organization.

Maybe he isn't. Maybe he is not one of us. So you've got different levels, different compartments within IT and and who's actually running the show, if anyone is, I don't know. That's never supposed to be apparent.

Well, that's a fascine question. And you can see this with N K, V D. It's obviously an extremely powerful organization that starts to eat itself wherever is pointing fingers internally.

Also, as a, as a way to gain more power is the question is, in organizations like that, that are so compartmentalise, ed, where's the power? Where is the center of power? Because you would think given image power, some individual or a group of individuals will start accumulating that power. But that seems like that's not always a trivial thing. Because if you get too powerful, the snake eat that person.

Well, you go back again to the the founder of soviet secret police, felix ski zinsky dies in one thousand nine, twenty six heels over after giving a heated speech to a party meeting.

That the common view what you usually read, which is was given for the time, is that clearly stolen had him actually because anytime someone died, IT was almost always IT, and I think a lot of times he did, but in some cases, silence probably getting blamed for things that he didn't actually do. Roginsky wasn't even opposed to stolen. So it's not clear who why he but this was that know, stole died, obviously he was poison.

Something happened. IT was an unnatural death. Somebody goes in for an Operation, you know, guess a little too much anaesthesia.

Stalin kill them. Uh, somebody tips over in a canoe. And upstate new york, stolen, killed them is actually a kick about that. So that itself can be kind of useful where every time someone dies, they think you kill them as a kind of an interesting method of intimidation in that regard. But the suspicion is nonetheless there. The zion sky had been, he was the grand in quieter he was seemingly firmly in control of the organization because maybe he wasn't maybe he was my guess would be is that if to sinker's death was not natural causes, that he was probably eliminated by someone within his own organization. And then you look at the people who take over um his immediate successor is got to love mangan ski who's really I really a secret policeman more are kind of intellectual dilaton but if you look behind him, you as the fellow his henrica goto and you go to will really sort of manage things from behind the scenes until mission ski dies in one thousand thirty four and then you go to the hold until he is the victim of the purchase I think in in thirty seven or or thirty eight a ega is ambitious murders and if I was going to point the finger to anybody who possibly had their jinky who waked IT would be him. And for the purposes simply of advancement, the you know that the person to look at any kind of corporate organization is you're immediate subordinate, the person who could move into your job because more than likely that's exactly what they're planning to do.

Yet just one step away from the very top, somebody there will probably activate the most power. You mentioned that the various russian intelligence agencies were good at creating agent provoke tours, infiltrating the holes of power. What does he take to do that?

Well, there's a interesting little acronym, my M I C E, and it's generally used. And it's just the way in which you would call, how do you get people to work for you? Well, instance for money, you pay them.

People are greedy. They want money. You know, if you look at all the rich aims, you had a very, very expensive wife with expensive tastes. So you want to the money I is for ideology. So during particularly in the hundred and twenty years, in the nineteen and thirties, the so is very effective and exploiting criminalists.

You know, people who wanted to serve the great cause, even though that that's initially not really what they wanted to do, because the idea was that if you were bruit agents from among let's the american communist, you compromise the party. Because exactly, we are in a music to say, is that all the minister, soviet spies for all trades in some way. So you would really want to keep those two things separate.

But ideology was just so convenient. And those people who just work for you so well, they were. You can get them to do anything between their grandmother. They would go and do that for the greater good.

So ideology can be a motivation um and that can be and know someone who is a who is a devoted markus lenders that can also be someone who is a disgruntled unst because you is there's no anti communist like an x communist. Leave milk those who lose the faith um can be become very, very useful. For instance, if you if you look in in the case of american intelligence, the people who essentially temporarily destroyed much of the K G B organization in the U.

S. Post world war two, where people like what ica chAmbers, luis bidens, Elizabeth bently, all of those people have been communist party members. They had all been part of the red faithful. They offer one reason or another, became disillusioned and turned rat or picrate, which every kids you may want to a put in that regard.

What is the sea in the eastern for?

The sea is for coercion. That's where you have to persuade someone to work for you. You have to pressure them. So usually you blackmail them, you know, that could be they have a gambling habit, you know, in the old days was very often because they were gay.

Okay, guess them a decision where they can be compromised and you can get them do you're bidding that those people usually have a certain amount of control? Here's interesting example how the okra attended to handle this, and I think it's still largely used. You round up a bunch of revolutionary.

On some charge and other distributing revolutionary literature, running an illegal printing press. You bring guy into the room, me to say, okay, take to work for us. Of course, you refuse to do so and go well.

If you refuse, will walk you through us, your cameras in jail for a while, you know, maybe beat them with a rubber trench or so. And we're just going to let you go. We're just going to put you back down on the street.

And if you don't work for us, we'll spread the rumour through our agents already in your organization that you are. And then what will your comrades do? How long are you going to live? So you see you have no choice, your ours, and you're going to CoOperate with us.

And the way that that effectively will be ensured is that you have multiple agents within the same organization who don't know who each other are. That's very important. They'll all be filing reports.

So let's say you have three agents inside the central committee of the S. R. Party and there's a committee meeting and you're going to look at the report staff they already to agree with each other, right?

If one person doesn't report with the other to do, then perhaps they're not entirely doing their job. And and they can beat liquidated at eighty time. All you do is dropped the dime on them.

And this was done period ally, in fact in some cases you would betray your own agents just to completely discommoding ate to the the organization this happened in one particular case um around nineteen and o eight the fellow who is the head of of the chief revolutionary terrorist organization, which wasn't multiple, but to so called socialist revolutionaries. Actually the biggest revolutionary part of the sr are even actually marxists, more anarchists. But they went all in for the propaganda.

Indeed, they really like blowing people up and Carry out to say, and he Carried out quite a campaign of terrorism. The fellow who is in the head of that terror as a organization was, was a filling the naif. You have no as if, and you have no as if was, guess what? An ochrony agent.

Everything he did, every assassination that he planned, he did in consultation with his control. So he kind of run out his string. There is increasing suspicion of him. He was also asking for a lot more money. So the acron itself arranged to have him write out.

And what did that do? Well, what do you do in your party when you find out the chief of your terrorist bergin was a secret police agent? It's so constantly and my trust nobody een the party would ever trust and you couldn't tell who he was sitting around um I know that I feel I read a biography on board seven coffee was a russian revolutionary and in the second in the command within the terrorist organization rather way the guy that wouldn't also have the job so bad he can taste IT.

Well on the one level he expressed absolute horror that his boss was a police agent. And well he should because seven cop was a police agent to so they already had the number two waiting in the wings to take over, but he was legitimately shot. He didn't really suspect that.

So it's it's a way of manipulating this. And then finally we come to the e that I think is the most important ego. Sometimes people spy or betray because the egotistical satisfaction that they receive, the sheer kind of mucky, valan joy in deceit.

An example of that would be kim filby, one of the cambridge five now. Now filby was a communist, and he would argue that he always saw himself as serving the communist cause, but he also made this statement. I think it's in the the press to his autobiography, and he says one never looks twice at the offer of service in elite force.

He saw him about his recruitment by the N. K, V, D, in the nineteen thirties. And he was absolutely shifted by that. The mayor, fact that they would want him, what he considered to be a first rate organization, would want him satisfied his eager.

And I was to take a guesses to whether IT was ideological motivation for there IT was the romance of communism, or there IT was the appeal of ego that was the most important in his career, treason. I go with ego, and I think that figures into a lot. You people don't someone doesn't get the promotions that they wanted.

Again, if you look at something like older age, aim m's career particular, you ve got this kind of and he is great. C I A was hitter miss. Um he didn't get the postings or promotions that he wanted. His evaluation never felt that he got credit for doing that. And that's the type of thing that tends to stick in someone's craw and can lead for typical reasons and added incentive to betray yeah .

there's a boost the eagle, when you can deceive, serve, not play by the rules of the world and just play with powerful people like there your ponds.

You're the only one that knows this. You know, the only one knows that the person who was sitting across from you, to which you have sworn your a loyalty, you are simultaneously betraying what a rush that must be for some people.

I wonder how many people are acceptable to this. I would like to believe that the people have, a lot of people haven't, the integrity to, at least we stand the M. I, the money in the ideology, the pool of that and the ego.

You can also be a combination of the two, and you can create a recipe of these things, certain count of money, ego and a little push of coersion that if you don't. Well, well, at you out, we will be exposed.

What are some differences to you as a we look at the history of the twenty century between the russian intel gent and the american intelligence in the C.

A. If you look about to your krona and the K G, B, one of the things that you find consistent is that they, a single organization, handled foreign intelligence, that is, spying upon enemy or hostile governments and also internal security. So that's all part of IT.

Who is? If you look at the U. S.

Models that evolves you you eventually have the FBI who enter hover insists that he's going to be the counter intelligence force. okay? Their comi spies are in around america.

The FBI who supposed to fear them out. The C. I, A, is not supposed to be involved in that.

And the the charter, the basic agreement in one thousand nine forty seven did not give the C. I. A any yes, often said they, they were barred from spying on americans, which isn't quite true.

You can always find a way to do that, but they don't have, they don't have any police or judicial powers. They they can't run around of the country Carrying guns, deals on people. They can't arrest you.

They can't interrogate you. They can't jail you. They have no police or judicial powers. Now that means they have to get that from someone else.

That does not mean that other agencies can be brought in or local police officials, corn and whatever you need, you can eventually acquire, but they can, they can do that directly. So you began this division, uh, between foreign intelligence and domestic counter intelligence, often split between hostel organizations. The relationship between the FBI and the C I A, I think it's fair to say is not shamming never has been.

So he's been a certain amount of of rival ready and contention between the two. And it's not to saying that something like that didn't exist between the domestic counter intelligence and forever intelligence components of of the K G B. But there would be less of that to a degree because there was a single organization.

They are answerable to the same people. So that gives you a certain greater amount, I think, of a lee way and power because you're controlling both of those in remember somebody telling me once that and he was a retired K. G, B officer, there you go, retired. One of the things that he found amusing with that in in his role, one of the things that he could be is that he could be anywhere at any time in any dress, wifi method, could be in or out of uniform, and any place at any time he was authorized to do that.

Some more freedom, more power.

I think one of the things that you would often have the view is that the russians simply no naturally meaning there. There's less respect for human rights. There's a greater tendency to abuse power that one might have mean, Frankly, they're all pretty good at that.

They're probably IT is fair to say that there is probably some degree of of cultural differences that is not necessarily for institutional reasons, but cultural reasons there could well be things that americans might bulk IT doing more than you would find on the russian or soviet side of the equations. The other respect of that is that russian history is long and contentious and bloody. One of the things that certainly teaches you never trust foreigners, every foreign government, anywhere, any country in your border is a real, a potential enemy.

They will all at some point, if given the chance in vaio. Therefore, they must always be treated with great suspicion that goes back to something. And I think that the british observes that countries don't have friends, their interests and those interests can change over time.

What the CIA is probably equally suspicious of all other nations.

But is your job you're supposed to be suspicious. Your job is not to be trusting yeah the mazza job of an intelligence agency is to safeguard your seekers since al the other guys and then hide those away.

Are there laws either intelligence agencies that um they're not willing to break? This is basically lawless Operation to where you can break any laws as long as IT accomplishes the task.

why? I think journal kay give his pen name, talking about his early recruitment into british intelligence. And one of the things you remember being told up front, well, if you do this, you have to be willing to lie and you have to be willing to kill.

Now those are things that in ordinary human interactions are bad things. Generally, we don't like IT. When people lie to us, we would expect that people will act honestly towards us.

You know whether that's being a business men, you're involved with your employers. We're often disappointed in that because people do lie all the time for a variety of reasons. But bit honesty is generally considering me.

But in in, in a ilm where deception is rule, this honesty is a virtue to be good at that to be able to lie convincingly. Kids good, it's what the thing you need to do. And killing also is generally found upon yeah put people in prison for that the otherwise executed.

But in certain circumstances, killing is one of those things that you need to be able to do. So when he felt was being told in that case that you know, once you entered this room, the same sort of moral rules that apply in general british society do not apply. And and if your screen ish about IT you won't fit in, you have to be able to do those things.

I wonder how often those intelligence agencies in the twenty years century, and of course, the natural question extending IT to the twenty first century, how often they go to the assassination, how often I go to the kill part of that versus just the espana.

let's take an example from american intelligence is from C. I. A one thousand nine hundred fifties, one thousand nine sixties into the one thousand seventies. M, K. Ultra, that is a secret program which was involved with what is generally category ed as mind control, which really means messing with people's heads.

And what was the goal of that one that they seem have been lots of goals, but there was an FBI memo that was I recently acquired, quite legal late by the declassified, but it's from nineteen forty nine. So this only two years after the C I, A. Came into existence.

And it's an F, B, I memo because the F, B, I course very curious what C I is up to. And the F B, I are not part of this meeting. But they have someone in there are sort of spying and what's going on.

So there was a meeting which was held in a private apartment in new york. So it's not held in any kind of unit is so essentially never really happen because it's in somebody's house. But and there are a couple of guys there from the CIA.

One of them is cleve baxter. Cleve baster is the the great godfather of the wide detector. Pretty much everything that we know, or think we know about why the sectors today, they ude to clear baxter.

He's also the same bird thought that plants could feel, but which somehow was the derivative of his organisation, ctr. So these guys are there and and they're giving a talk to some military, another personnel and there are certain parts of the document, which of course rejected. But you can figure out what IT is that they're talking about.

And they are talking about hynd suggestion and all the wonderful things you can potentially do with hypnotic suggestion. And two of the things they note is that one of things we could potentially do is erased memories from people's minds. And in plant false memories.

That would be really keen to do that. Just imagine how that would be done. So here to me is the interesting point to talk you about.

This forty nine M K. Ultra does not come along until really nineteen fifty three over. They're all source of art, choke others.

Everything sort of leading up to that is simply an elaboration of programs are all already there. I don't think that IT ultimately matters whether you can implant memories or erased memories. To me, the important part is they thought they could and they were going to try to do IT.

And that eventually is what you find out in the efforts made during the nineteen fifties and sixties through M K ultra, M K surge, M K naomi and all the others that came out. That's one of things they're working for. Um and among the few M K ultra era documents that survive, there's that whole question is that you get someone to put a gun to someone's head and pull the trigger and then I never remember IT later yeah you could interestingly enough.

so non direct violence controlling people's minds, controlling people's minds at scale and experimenting with different kinds of ways of doing that.

But one person put IT that the basic argument, there are the basic thing here, after I was to understand the architecture, the human mind, how IT worked, how IT put together, and then how you could take those pieces apart and assemble them in different ways. So this comes, this is where hypnotist comes in, which is a was then still a fairly spooky thing. Nobody has ever explained to me exactly what IT is.

The idea was that could you you think of the whole possibilities in this case? Could you create an alternate personality? And use that alternate personality in an ancient role, but then be able to turn IT on.

And all so subsequently, the the person that personality inhabit was captured and interrogated, tortured, no other fingernails torn out. They would have no member of IT. They couldn't give any kind of secret away because I was embedded in some part of their brain where there was a completely different person.

I mean, you can just imagine the the possibilities that you can dream up. And again, it's not I think the question is the whether you that is possible or whether IT was done all. I suspect that both of those are true, but that you would try to do IT then imagine the mystery that comes out of that. And one of the big complaints from a legal standpoint about mk alter and arrest is that you are having medical experiments essentially being Carried out on people without their knowledge and against their will, which is, no, no, yeah.

the fact that went to do medical experiments says something about what you're willing to do. And i'm sure that same spirit, innovative spirit, persist to this day in a maybe less so, I hope less so the united states, but probably in other intelligence agencies in the world.

Well, one thing that was learned in the reason why most M, K. Ultra and similar records were destroyed on order in the early seventies, the time to C. A, A became understood the amount scrutiny twenty seventeen ties were not a good time for the agency because he had the church committee breaking on their neck.

You know, all of these access people were asking lots of questions. And so you need you need to dump this stuff because there's all kinds of you, because you are committing crimes against american citizen. So let let's eradicated.

And the important listen to be learned is that never do this type of thing again, where, at least in any way in which the agencies direct fingerprints are placed on IT. You can pay people, you can subsidize research, you can set up venture capital firms. You got plenty of money, and you can fund that money into the hands of people who will Carry out this research privately. So something goes wrong. You you have perfect deniability on the .

topic of mice, on the topic of money, ideology, question and ego. Let me ask about a conspiracy theory. So there is a conspiracy theory that the CIA is behind jeffrey .

have seen at .

a high level. If we can just talk about that. Is that something that at all even possible that you have? Uh, basically this would be for cursing. You get a bunch of powerful people to be sexually mister ious, and then you collect evidence on them so that you can then have leverage on them.

Well, look at what abt am was doing. He was a, he was a business man who then also develop very lucrative sideline in being a high level procure, basically in supplying Young girls. And he also filmed much of that activity. Um I think his partner is jane and I hope i'm going out and I think is gay gilan I .

of both was gay .

or gane whatever IT may be I think her argument at one point was that IT did this to protect ourselves, but this type of thing has been done before. There's nothing new about this getting influential people in compromising situations and filming them.

I could give you another historical example of that in late nineteen to an actually early nineteen thirties just pre not see berlin, there was a very prominent, sort of would be psychic and a cultist by the name of eric yan, honey son. Uh, he had a private yet I think he was called the seven sins. Uh, and he hosted parties.

He also had a whole club called th Epace o f t he c old, which hosted parties where things went on and and there were cameras everywhere. He filmed important people, you know, guys like the Brown shirt chief of berlin in various states of and in sexual congress. And he did that for the purposes of blackmail.

So in abstains case, he is a procure of Young girls, two wealthy men, largely. And many those events were recorded. Now, even if IT wasn't his intention to use them for black mail, think of what someone else could do because people know about this.

So you can raise a question, is this not your estein is just kind of a greedy pervert. But through his greedy perversion, he is now collecting information that can be useful. Who could that be useful to? Who would like dirt and prince Andrew on the clink? Think of all the people who were there and and they these now there were the important people who went to, look, little island.

So if IT isn't ext directly, he might have been been am not trying to let him off the hook because of anything for him. He was either running his own blackmail business or someone was using him as the front for that. I think I think we're kidding ourselves. We trying to pretend that's not what was going on.

So you think even american intelligence agencies would be willing to school, band and take advantage of a situation like that?

Well, you know, just american politicians could ultimately end up in a position to oversee things like intelligence budgets. One of them might even become director. You can never know.

I can ever tell what some crazy president might do. IT could be where I live. One of the guys who understood the perth was jagow. j. Grover spent a long time collecting docs and politicians.

How do you think he would remain director of the FBI as long as he did, because he systematically collected dirt on people? So there is a history of this type of thing. Anybody could argue that's partly for his protection to keep his job to protect the the santillan security of of the bureau can find a million different ways to justify that.

It's really dark. Well, there is that side to human nature. Just put that way.

whether is the C I A or the a rona, maybe that's what the president of the united ted states seized when they show up to office is all the stuff they have on him or her and say that that there's an internal mechanism of power that you don't want to mess with and you will listen, whether that internal mechanism of powers, the military industrial complex or whatever, the the bureaucracy of government.

conceptually, the deep state that did the tend to bureaucratic. Well, it's been said, and I think it's journal true, that bureaucratic creatures are like any other creatures IT basically exists to perpetuate itself to grow. Nobody wants to go out of business in the questions you get all of these you know things like pizz gate accusations of one for another.

But there's an interesting thing to consider. okay. And I want to argue that I am not saying that pizz gate and anyway was real or cute on him is but where do they get these ideas from? So let's ask ourselves, do pay philes exist? Yeah, do organized pedophile organizations exist?

Yeah, they, they, they share information, pictures there, out there on the dark web they could Operate. So does child trafficking exist? Yeah, that does.

So, in other words, whether or not specific conspiracy theories about this or that group of organized pedophile cultists is real, all the ingredients for that to be real are there. Pedophile iles exist. Organized pedophilia exists.

Child in human trafficking exists. At some point, at some time, someone will put all of those together. In fact, certainly they already have.

We will jump on a little bit but yeah, your work is so fascinating and IT covers so many topics so let's if you jump into the present, uh, with the bohemian growth and the builder over .

older burgers.

So the elites, as I think you ve referred to them, so he's gathering of the elites. Can you can you just talk about them? What is? What is this?

Well, first thing in our point is the bohemian growth is a place, an organization, is where the bohemian club meats, that twenty seven hundred acre old growth red woods near north of sands, is go. The bohemian club began with back eighteen seventies. Its, its initial members were mostly journalists.

In fact, this disposedly, the name itself, comes from that was a term for an itinerary journalist. A move paper to paper was called the bohemian. And although I think there may be other reasons why that particular term was was chosen as well.

And I I think the gino five members there were, there were like three journalists. There was a merchant and there was a guy owned the veneers. California, how surprising.

No of them terribly wealthy, but they have formed an exclusive menus club. Wasn't still is nothing terribly unusual about that at the time. But IT became fashionable. And if IT became fashionable, more wealthy people wanted to become part of IT. In the thing about getting rich guys to join your club is what a rich guy has, have money.

And of course, is one of those are rich guy, is that bought bohemian grove for now, you build the earth, your old boy summer cap, which is what IT is. They got cabinet with goofy names. They go there.

They perform skids. They dress up in costumes here. True, some of those skills look like paging human sacrifices, but know it's just as a kid what's really going on there.

So on the one hand, you can argue, look, it's just, it's a rich guy's club. They they like to get out here that the whole model of the places weaving spiders come, not here. So we ever going to talk about business. We just want to get out of the woods, put on some robes and burn a couple of effigies in front of the oil. Have a good time.

probably get drunk a lot. What's with the robes? Why do they do weird, creepy shit? Why do they put on mask and the rope and the, and do the place and the, the out with the and in sacrificing?

I don't know what. Why do have a giant? How do you do that?

But what is that in human nature? Because I don't think the rich people are different than a not rich people. what? What is IT about wealth and power that brings that out of people?

Well, part of this is the ritual aspect of IT. And then, clearly, is a ritual. Rituals are pretty simple. Rituals are just a series of actions performed in a precise sequence to produce an effect that describes a lot of things he describes place symphonies. Every movie you ve ever seen a movie is ritual IT is a series of actions Carried out in the precise sequence to reduce an effect, but then had the soundtrack to kill you to what actions response to be feeling a great idea.

So the rich people should just go to a movie. Maybe you go to a tail is with .

concert like why why .

you well why the house .

part of IT is to create this kind of since I suppose of a group solidarity, you know you're you're all going to appear and also waves of yourself anyway. You know when you put on the robe is like putting on a uniform, you are in way a different or more important person. It's a rural, okay? The key ritual that behmen grove is the thing called the cremation of care cremation.

And that's what it's supposed to be, is is secretly were going to put all of our rich, important people we have to make all of these critical decisions. Life is the art. So we're going to go out here in the woods.

We're going to kick back. We're all all going to gather around the lake and then we're going to Carry its its weaker. It's not a real person and how we do, you know and they're gone.

I'm gone. And this is the cremation of arc, but it's a ritual which is meant to produce a sense of solidarity and relief among those people who are there. The question comes out of the Richard is how seriously do you take them? How how important is this to the people who Carry them out in?

The interesting answer to that is that for some people, it's for some people is just boring. I know there are probably people standing around the world who think this is ridiculous and can't wait for her to get over with. There are the people who are kind of excited about IT to get caught up into IT, but other people can take that very seriously.

It's all the matter of the intention that you have about what the visual means. And I don't mean to suggest by that there is anything necessarily sinister about what's going on. But IT IT is IT is a IT is clearly a ritual Carried out for some kind of group reinforcing purpose.

And you're absolutely right, right? You don't have to do at that way. That's not an i've gone to summer camps and we never Carried out mox sacrifices in front of an al right.

We did all those other things. Um we didn't mean have any robes either. So IT goes beyond merely A A rich guy summer camp, although less an aspect of IT, but also, I think, often obscures that.

Focusing on bohemian grove at the getaway of the club ignores that the clubs around all the time, that's what's at the center of this IT is the club and its members. So despite all to talk about no, no, weaving spiders coming around here, what are the other features of the summer meeting? Are things called lakeside talks? This often people are invited to go there.

And in one of the people who was invited, I think one hundred sixty eight was Richard nixon, who was making his political comeback. And he was invited to give a talk who are very important, people are listening. And nicks on in his meal was realized what was going on.

He was being auditioned to, whether not he was going to be read. He recognized that was really the beginning of his second presidential campaign. He was being voted.

So one of the main theories, call IT a conspiracy there about the bohemian club in the gatherings, is that people of wealth and influence gather together. And whether or not it's part of the agenda or not. inhabitable. Ly, you're going to talk about things of interest, but to me, the main of fact that you invite people in political leading to give lakeside talks means that there there are weaving spiders, which are going on, and IT is a perfect private venue to vet people for political office. I mean, yeah.

we're else. Are you going to do IT if you're interested in betting? If you are interesting in powerful people, select well.

see, here's the question. Are these guys actually picking who's going to be present? Is that the decision which is being made or they just deciding what horses they're going to back? I think the latter is the simple reversion of IT.

But IT doesn't mean the the other way. Rather that is the kinds of you know I mean, nixon was, you know, there was the whole nineteen sixty thing. So he he's the new nixon member. This and this this is where the new nixon, uh, apparently made a good impression on the right people because he didn't deed, did the rubble of the nomination and he didn't become president.

But there could also be a much more innocent explanation of really it's powerful people getting together and having conversations, and through that conversation, influencing each other, other's view of the world and having a legitimate discussion of policies.

policy, you assume that people are not going .

to do the other thing with the, with the robes.

like what? Why the all? And why are the robes?

Which is why becomes really compelling when guys like Alice Jones a forgive me but have not watched his documentary I probably shed at some point a about to behaving a girl where he claims that there is a sadness human sacrifice of I think children um and I think that's quite a popular conspiracy theory or IT is lost popularity. IT kind of transformed himself into the q on set of conspiracy theories. But I mean, he speak to that conspiracy of this way.

The digital public grish people are inherently suspicious. Let let's put IT that way. First of all, they ve got all that money.

And exactly how did IT one obtain IT? And I do not a necessity. Add here to the view that behind every great fortune, there is a great crime.

But they are often are. There are the reason, which is quiet. But I think it's one of the things I think that can happen is particularly when people acquire a huge amount of money.

And I want name any names. Will they say there are people who, perhaps in the texas here, who, coming from no particular background of wealth, simply find themselves with six hundred billion dollars. Wow, what? This is the question you'd have to ask yourself.

Why me? Because you are one of the rare, tiny group of human beings, will ever have that kind of wealth in your hands, even if you are a convinced atheist. I think at some point you have to begin to suspect that the cosmic muff in providence, whatever IT is, put this money in your hands to do what achieve great things.

Just think of all the stuff is. So you're going to start a foundation and here to start backing all the things that you you like. This is yeah, I think there's an element of ego that comes in with IT as well.

And again, IT may not be so much what the rich person with a huge amount of money at their disposal and a lot of fuzzy ideas about what to do with that can be influenced by others. It's always that question is to who's actually manipulating these events, what's what's going on in that guard and some way they can be a very useful sucker. You know, find somebody with a lot of money in, get them to finance the things that you want them to do.

The bohemian club is, I don't think any of itself inherently evil or minister, but IT means that there are a lots of different people and IT who have different agenda. IT goes back to what I said about how somebody feels about the cremation of care gradual. This is either just a waste of time. IT is some sort of silly thing that we're doing or IT is something of great importance, perhaps even mystical or religious importance because that's extensively. What is pretending to be is always this question is the degree you begin to play and the play becomes serious, that attends to happen a lot.

You've studied a lot, a lot of culture in a courtisanes. But IT is the power that mistake experience.

Well, what is broadly referred to be going to what? What's the cold is? What's the court? The court is the hidden. So IT really means specifically hidden from sight. And the basis of IT is the idea that what is hidden when, what is hidden from us, is most of the world, most of reality.

So the basic concept within a cotis m, the basic concept within most religions, which are approved forms of a cult, sm, is that the world at the physical world that we are aware of, is only a very small part of a much larger reality. And that what the methods and practices of a court ism arguably do is to allow someone to either enter into this larger reality or to access that larger reality for purposes to be exploited. Here, the most interesting statement about, and a key element, this becomes something called magic.

Now we all know magic. You know, it's a guy standing on stage performing a trick. But leading thing about a stage magician is that a stage magician is, we know women washing is that is a trick, yet we can't really figure out if he does IT well how that trick is being accomplish.

Because IT seems to define physical laws, and that's what's fascinating about IT. So even though, you know, it's a track, if you can't figure IT out, IT has this kind of power fascination, but is mimicking something stage magic is mimicking real magic. So is real magic.

Well, let's go back to alister colic because, you know, he always has to, we knew, knew is going to come up at some point in this, really, that because he always that all roads lead, all roads lead, alter, cruel, alter cruelly. And I said this enough that I should be able to get to, right? But i'm perforating here.

He goes magic, which he course he spill with. The key to our C K um is the the art and science of causing change to occur in conformity with will so in the way that sort of mind over matter but is the idea that one can through will through in tension. Been reality to make something happen.

Somebody one's put of this way, it's tipping the luck plane. So you know, you guess someone kind of a level plan that do just tip just a little bit of the marble rules, rules over one side or another. Now that presupposes a lot of things that is there a luck plane? I don't know, but no, it's it's a good sort of idea to have.

But and here again, don't become overly bothered trying to figure out whether you actually can bend reality. Become bothered by the fact that there are people who believe that they can and will go to great efforts to do so and will often believe they have succeeded. So is this effort to make things occur in a particular way, maybe just this sort of nudge reality and one little way or another? And that's where things like rich als come in.

Rich als are away focusing will and detention were all there. We're all thinking about the same thing. And you have to imagine just how know the pervasive veness of what could be called that, that kind of magical thinking.

Everyday, I is everywhere. So let me give you an example. If you've ever attended a high school football, pepper away.

Think of what's going on there. Okay, your team is gonna going to battle the other team. You've now assembled, everyone in the gym, asian.

You've got people who are dancing around an animal totem costumes and and what are you chanting? Everyone is supposed to chat that know that the other team dies, okay, that you'll be horribly defeated, that our team will be Victorious. That is a magic ritual.

The idea is, he becomes into this idea, very popularly, about visualizing things. Visual is manifesting alteram. You need to manifest your success. Well, that's just magic that is trying to cause change in conformity with will. So these things can happen without you being even consciously aware of what's going on.

And you don't need to be because if you're all part of the of the mob, which is there in the gym, asian and you you get into this and you get worked up and a cultist would argue what you're doing is you're creating a huge amount of energy. All of these people are putting energy into something and that energy goes somewhere. And maybe you can maybe just maybe you actually can slightly increase, ed, the chances of your teams of Victory. Of course, your opponents are having their own ritual at the same time. So whoever has the bigger mojo will apparently win on the team.

So that's A I was a trivial example that but a clear one. I do believe that there's incredible power in groups of humans getting together and more fing reality. I think that's probably one of things that made human civilization what IT is, groups of people be able to believe a thing and bring that belief into reality.

Yes, that's you're exactly right. Bring to conceive of something, and then through intention will to manifest that into this ROM.

And of course, the that power of the collective mind can be leveraged by charismatic leaders to do all kinds of stuff where .

you get cults .

that do horrible things, or any anything.

There might be a cold that is good things and depends we use.

We don't .

call those calls without endorsing ing this entirely. And interesting in one of the questions, what the difference when to call in a religion and IT has been said that in the case of a cult, there is always someone at the top who knows what's going on generally, who knows is a sm in the religion that person is dead. So say, i've just managed to insult every single really and end IT, but it's it's an interesting way of of thinking about IT because I think there is some degree of of accuracy in that statement.

You think actually the interesting psychological question is in cults, do you think the person at the top always knows that is a scam? Do you think there's something about the human mind where you gradually begin to .

begin to believe your own bullshit? Yes, that that again is part of magic I think is believing your own bullshit. Um IT doesn't itis mean that the the head of the cult realize but there's someone maybe the second was sort of looking in the lutte, someone probably has an idea about what's going on.

Ah the other thing that seems to be A A kind of did give away for what we call a court is is what's called excessive reference for the leader. People just believe everything these people say. Give you an example of the first time I ever encounter anything like that was in was a sanaa, arba, california, than eighty seventh time is going to grad school.

And there was a particular caught locally, I think, his brotherhood of the son. I was the same that there is some guy who was among the other things followers were convinced to hand over all their money and personal belongings to ham. I believe he is part of that money to buy a yacht with. Anyway, a lot of IT went to him, and then, of course, working for free upon different cold own business enterprises, of which there are several. And there was a person I knew who became a devoted follow of this.

And IT was a all, like I think of at one point, was asked them, what the hell the matter with you? I mean, have you lost your mind? But why would you, what is that, that this person can possibly be providing IT that that you essentially are going to become slave to them, which, which is what they were doing.

And I actually give that credit away of sort of Sparking my whole interest in things like secret societies. And here again as a disclaimer, I am not now now where ever, ever been the member of any fernal organization, secret society or cop that I know of. And that's what interests me about them because I am just always trying to figure out why people do these things.

Like I said, why the robes in out? why? Yeah, why do you do that? And it's trying to figure that, I mean, I couldn't even hacked the boy scouts.

Okay, that was too much of though because to me, you join an organization and the first thing comes along as there's somebody, their rules and somebody is telling you what to do. okay? I don't like people telling me what to do.

Spent much my life trying to avoid that as much as possible and john a called there's gonna be someone telling you what to do um join the bohemian club there's going to be someone telling you you what to do. And obviously a lot of people really get something out of that IT IT. IT becomes, in some ways, it's sort of necessary for them to function. But I do not understand IT, and my study of IT is a personal error to try to understand why people do that.

There are so many reasons, primary of which, who says the desire in the human heart to belong? yes. And the dark forms that takes throughout human history, recent human history.

Uh, something I love to talk you a bit about. If we could not go back to the beginning of the twenty eth century. On the german side, you've described how secret societies like the T. V society lay the foundation for, not the ideology. Can you, through that ones, from that perspective.

describe the rise of the nc party? Well, I guess we can start with, what on earth is the truly society? So the truly society was a small german, a cold society, that is, they they studied ed, my physics.

Other fancy word for that appeared in munich on nineteen seventeen, nineteen eighteen. The key figure behind IT was a german isota ist by the name of rudolf phone is a bottoms doff, okay? Not his real name.

Real name was adam root of glower. He was adopted by a german noble man and got the name phones is a botton df, and i'd liked to say that name. So I was real thing about vague, mysterious characters to show up and do things. And in trying to figure out who these people are. So we work the years, sort of prior to the first world war. So the decade or so prior world world one he spends a lot of time in the automatic empire turkey there isn't on and the the autumn empire um which was a fairly tumultuous place um because in one thousand nine hundred and eight and one thousand nine and nine there was the Young revolution and you had a kind of military coup which effectively over through the autumn salton and install a military honda which would go under the first world war to make its greatest achievement in the armenian genocide eventually he created a genocide military regime which would lead the country into disastrous first world war which would destroy the automated empire out of which a modern turkey emerging and by the way.

we should take a tiny tension here, which is that you refer to the intelligence agencies as being accepting successful and here, in the case of the Young turks, being a also very successful, or are in doing the genocide, meaning this achieved the greatest impact, even though the impact on the scale are good to evil, tense to res evil.

is one of the thing that often comes out of revolutionary situations. Revolutions always, always, always seek to make things Better. Don't think we're going to take a battle regime, you know, assault is.

And the third was bad. I think it's very quite set up to her me the second was not yeah wasn't called the red salt because of his favorite color type of thing. And the ideas that they were going to improve, they were now going to the ultimate empire, was a multi national empire.

They're going to try to equalize and bring in the different groups. And and and none of that happened. IT became worse. Okay, in the same way that you could argue that the goal of russian revolutionaries was to get rid of the bad old, incompetent, meti evils arrests regime and to bring in a new, great, shining future. And I became even more authoritarian, and the crimes of the imperial russia regime pale and significance.

What would follow in the same way that the crimes of opto, humid, pale to when you get to the Young turks? But that wasn't necessarily the intention. But once abundant door is a german business man whose whose working in this period, and at the whole point here, is that the ultimate in part in this period, is a hot bed of of political intrigue, in all kind of interesting things about that.

The Young turk revolution is essentially a military coup, but he is in Masonic ologies. Okay, I know technically, mesons ic logic are never supposed to be involved in politics, but they are um or you know the launch meeting breaks up and then you pass the revolution so saying group of people but it's is not but yes, in there there's the the massoni resource of lodge in tesla. Nii was ground zero for plotting this military cool they've supposed to improve the empire the bottom dov is in one way or they mixed up in all of this.

At least he's an observer a plus he's initiated he's initiated into the message lodges um and in interestingly enough, to fellow who initiate them into one of these eastern lodges is a jewish merchant to the name of tair moody and who is also a cabinet st and info top is very, very interested in the east he is initiated into eastern sonic lodges in a period when those saying logger are being used as a center for political. He also apparently is involved in gun running, which he was in revolutionary periods. Is there's a lot of the money to be made off of that.

So he's connected to various dark businesses in a commodious time with connections to politicized free macy and the a cult. Now in the course of the first world war, he returns to germany. Peter shows up.

And IT would be my Operative suspicion or theory that the boden dov was in working for someone. I don't think he just pops up in munich on his own, the court. Why does he leave the automation empire and return to their place? Who's behind him now? Maybe no one, but maybe someone, because they just seem to have money at, is disposal.

And he comes in the music, and he basically takes over this small sort of a cold study group out. Interesting thing is that the tools society is really just a branch of another existing was called and ariosto s border, I think, called the german order of the gaman orderin, which is centered in berlin. But for some reason he doesn't want his group to be connected by name with the german in or so to the society too.

Ly, in the cases of reference to positive, a mythical arctic homeland of the erie race, can apparently there are all snow, people who wander out of the snow at some point? It's kind of like a frozen atlantis. So I mentioned these people, the ariosto hist, who, which is have to practice saying that.

So what are they? Well, there are kind of racist germanic offshoot of philosophy. And I know i'm explaining one thing to explain something up, but there's no other way to do this.

So theosophy was a nineteen century, very popular and widely modeled, a cold belief that was found by a russian. Remember the name of Helena SHE was a medium psychic. He supposed to get channels from the ascended masters.

The basic story there, there are all of the ascended masters, which are mythical beings that mar men out of once been human. They live inside the himalayas that they flow among them on a cloud and and they guide the spiritual evolution of humanity. But bavasi did was to take western esotericism and blended with hindu in budd's esotericism, which became very, very sexy in the west.

Still is no booties. M attracts a lot of people because, well, it's boodles. M it's differenced. So, you know, the hat must the ascended masters were sent her messages, despite the fact this he was later proved, and pretty much to be a fraud, and running the letters yourself.

Nevertheless, people still went along with this doctrine and has been widely modified in, copied since then. So an idea in philosophy was that human spiritual evolution was tied to physical evolution. So in the case of lavasa, lavasa never said that americans, White people, anything out this presumes, or SHE talked about me a the different root races.

But it's just come their version of IT. It's just total double the group that seems to include everyone. And I did defy you to make much sense out of IT.

But in the early twenty and th century, there are different. Sort of, you know, one of the things that became unfashionable, you know, not terribly popular. These are small movements with the idea that, well, you, germany is a new upcoming country.

And and part of this, I think, was really trying to define who the germans, the war, because remember, the german empire, germany is a political state, doesn't come into existing till eighteen seventy one. Prior to that, germany was a geographic expression, a vein which described a large area in central europe. Or a lot of people who warn leather shorts and or something like that and spoke similar german dialects were nominally germany, but they might be brushes or bavarians or no, they came in all source of varieties in religion.

There was no german identity. Some, incredibly, happened in italy in the same period. And they weren't a tablets. There are sardinians, there were romans, and there are sisi ans.

Omber's spoke again dialects of a similar language, but had never lived in ince, the roman empire, under a single state, and really didn't think of themselves as the same. So you have to create this artificial thing. You have to create germans.

There is now a germany with an emperor, and so we're all going to be germans. Well, exactly what is that? Much of IT is is an artificial creations.

know? I have to decide upon some sort of standard dialect, kay, we will decide what what that is, often dialect that only a few people actually spin. Then they will be drilled into children's s heads through state schooling programs.

So I think this is the kind of menu that IT comes out, people who were trying to figure out what on earth germans actually were, and the need for some sort of common identity. And, you know, that leads to everything like ordinary and Opera. We are ordinary, wanted to create a german final music.

So he went back and strip mind old german myths and cobble them together, and do a lot of people standing on stage singing. And that was his purpose. He was, he was a nationalist. He was, in many ways, a kind of racialist nationalist. And this was this idea of trying to create out a bit and pieces of the past, a new, single form of german identity.

So on the more mythical into this, you had the ideas that we all germany, must have been created for some special purpose, because the german must be very special people and we must have some sort of particular destiny. And then out of this and all the direction this is heading, well, we're all part of some sort of master race, uh with with some sort of ties to some sort of great civilization in the past. Call IT too, we call IT, whatever you want to be.

They basically just invent things and try to attach those to the past. And so arrigo soph was the ionized version of theosophy. And what this did was to take the idea that spiritual and physical evolution had LED to the most advanced form of human beings, which wore the areas in the most advance group of them worth course, the germans.

And this attracted appeal. Like, keep in mind again, this was not a mass movement. This is very much a fringe movement. Most people weren't aware of IT and weren't particularly interested in IT, but i've had an appeal for those who already had a kind of esoteric bent in some form another.

And this is where things like the grand and or in the german order in their other groups, that is only one of many sort of grew out of. And when IT was that the truly society as a branch, the truly gazelle shaft, was supposed to do, was to study this. IT was IT was an esoteric study group.

And so people will get together and they talk about things, probably make more stuff up, and all sort of work around this. This idea of of german arias is the most advanced type of human beings, and all the wonderful things that the future would hold. And the most, the fact that this was in the middle of a war in which germany was again fighting and they saw for for its its existence heighten those kinds of those kinds of tensions as well.

so. My suspicion again, is that the boat door, in terms of who was behind him, that he was essentially call back to germany to work either for the brush, an political police, or for some aspect of german intelligence security, to try to mobilize a cult, sm or esotericism for the war effort. Because, again, this is nineteen and eighteen. The the world is one on way too long, within a few months of germany will collapse. IT will collapse simply from the psychological exhaustion of the population.

So this is almost like to help the war effort with a kind of propaganda, A, A narrative that can strengthen the will of the german .

people in the will of some people. Some you have, you have to try to appeal to different aspects of this, but that the mystic aspect is one of those things that can be you can have a very powerful influence in the ideas. If we we can come up with some kind of.

Mystical nationalism, maybe that's one to put in that kind of mystical nationalism that can be exploited for the workers at this point here we kind of grasping straws. And this this is a whole period when the germans are marching the last of their forces to launch a series of offensives on the western front. The piece offensive, which will initially be successful, but will ultimately fail and lead to a collapse and moral.

But among the leadership of germany was a recognition is, was that national morale was flagged. And one of the other things that was kind of raising its head was what had happened nearby a year while the russian revolution, which is now bright, the idea which, but another solution to all of this, the idea of revolutionary marxism. Here we need to remind ourselves where marxism comes from, not russia, germany. Where was the largest marx's party in germany?

In Marks probably expected the revolution to begin. In germany. Where else means the soviet union is not very industrialized. Germany is. And so that's why would probably russia .

five percent of the population is a destroy workers? In germany, forty percent of the population, isn't that. So if any place was, like, made for marxism, IT was germany.

And that's what I caught on in east germany. So well, because it'd kind of come home. And then IT was was a local belief. IT wasn't something imparted, imported by the russians that was IT was IT was a german invention.

So the truly society, one of things you can see in this is the tully society, was particularly involved in sort of anti marxist or anti bolshoi c agitation. They solve themselves. The voting source, i'll sell them, is this whole mood. IT was a counter to this. IT was a kind of counter marxist movement.

Can we sort of try to break that apart in a new west way? So IT was a nationalist movement. The a cult was part of the picture, a cult racial theory.

So there's a racial component like the area and race. So it's not just the national germany. And you take that and contrast IT with markers and the day also formula that in racial terms. The day formulate that in national versus global terms like how do they see .

this marxism? Formal is everything by class. People who categorize by class you're part of the proletary or part of the bush.

Was here part of the proletary or some sort of gum really need to be swept into the dust in of history? Only workers count. And that was what would take, someone who was a nationalist, what sort of drive them in crazy.

Because their ideas, we're trying to create german people. I, we're trying to create a common german identity. But what the marches are doing is that providing germany against each other by class german workers hate the german bush was I german bm poetarum is opposed to german capitalists.

We're all, we're all trying to fight this war together. So that was why marxism in the form, particularly the form of otium, was seen as unpatriotic. And of course, IT was opposed to the war as a whole.

And the idea that parenting lendon was that the war was an imperialist war. And the only thing that was good that was going to come out of IT is that the imperialist war, through all of the crisis IT was creating, would eventually lead to a class war. And that would be good because that would reconcile all of these things.

But think of this, the two very different versions of this, the the boss of this version of the discount date, the marxist version of germany, IT, was going to be a class society in which we're going to have to have some kind of civil up people which have germans fighting germans. Where as the the kind of mystic nationalism, the most kind of religious nationalism, that the boat door from the truly society IT hitched his wagon to held, that germans are all part of a single racial family, and that's what must be the most important thing, and that these can be different ways of trying to influence people. He comes down to a matter of of political influence.

So in a since I think that what's the bottle from the truly society was trying to do, at least within muni que was to use this idea of mystic nationalism is a potential rating point for some part of the population to oppose these other forces, to keep people fighting. The war is lost though, by the in november, you know, the kind of a decades. And essentially the socialists do take over in germany, things can very, very close to following the russian model.

And you even get the russian version or taken the bullet. Bics, which are the spartiate, is who try and fail to seize power early on. But you do essentially in IT with the socialist germany.

And that then leaves in the aftermath of the war. The truly society is sort of the the odd man out, although there's still very closely connected to the army. And here's one of things that I find interesting when you get into one one thousand nine and nineteen, who is that? It's paying about endorse bills. It's the army. The one thing the german army is absolutely determined to do is to preserve its social position and power and they're perfectly willing to dump the kaiser to do that.

A sort of this deal who SHE is made um in november of one thousand nine hundred eighteen, kay's abdication and the proclamation of a german republic, which you just had this guy declare IT IT wasn't really planned um there's the the abbot groner packed goner is the chief of staff, general staff at this point of the abbot with the chief socialist politician basically and and they make a new agreement. And the agreement basically is that the army will support able to government, if able, supports the army. And particularly that means the continuous ation of the officer core and the journal staff and one form another. So a deal is made and that, of course, is what will eventually help defeat the sparrow is uprising.

Where was the army doing the similar kinds of things that we've talked about with the intelligence agencies, this kind of same kind of, uh, trying to control the direction.

public hour, the german intelligence landscape in the first world wars that is obscure in many ways there. There are lots of things that are going on. You've got the germany has an a military and intelligence service called up tillion or section three b that just plain military intelligence know they they're constantly trying to collect military information. Now before the war, about the weapon and plans are the animates and then about what the Operational plans were during the war doesn't really go much beyond that though. The german foreign office runs a kind of political intelligence service, and that's the one which is much more involved in things like subsidizing subversion in russia, which is one of the things that the germans sign on to fairly early.

Little diversion here in one thousand nine fifteen there is a russian revolutionary who live much of his life in germany um who goes by the code name of parvis and he essentially comes to the germans in constant in opal interesting enough in turkey he's hanging in around there the same time the boat is there which I find curious so previous or Alexander hell hand to give his actual time consume goes look is a lot of revolutionary in russia. There's a lot of mistrust with the regime. We think that the war will increase the contradictions in russian society.

And if you give me a lot of Marks, I can finance this revolutionary activity. And through the version, I can take russia out of the war. The german are facing a two front war.

That sounds great. We ll use money in order to, but notice what they're doing. The german general staff, a very conservative organization, not a much revolutionary, are going to finance revolution in an opposing country.

They are going to finance revolutionary version to take russia out of the war, which basically works. So that gives you another idea, is to what the german military is willing to do. They're not revolutionary, but they'll pay revolutionary to several another regime.

Now you've got the problem is that the revolutionary regime that your money help bring the power is now threatening to extend into your country. So the whole question for the army and for others in germany in nineteen nineteen is how to keep germany from going. Bolshoi c, from an a sense being hoisted by your own patara.

So the tully society, I don't think, is a huge part of this program, but IT is a part of IT, and it's all the effort to try to keep control. And that's why the army is financing them. That's even where the army, at some point, didn't supplies them with its own propaganda ists.

So the tully society begins to create, under supporting those leadership, what he called the rings of tully. And these are satellite organizations that aren't the society is so, but there they're kind of controlled and inspired by IT. And one of those, this thing called german workers party, in the german workers party, again, is local, not large, is not terribly influential.

But what is IT inspired to be? IT inspires to be a party that will bring german workers away from the seductive influence of the bulge vics, and into a more patriotic position, a patridge. And the way I described this is that it's not an anti communist organization, is a counter come in a storage animation.

So you don't create something which completely opposes IT. You create something which mimic IT, which is ultimately what the german worker's party will become, is the national socialist german workers party. Notice that term socialist. And that is, in my view, what natheless m is from the beginning. IT is a counter communist movement.

And by the way, for people don't know, the national socialist german workers party is also known as the native party. So how did this evolution happen from those that that complicated a little interplay? We should also say that a guy named at all hitler t is in the army at this.

yes. Well, he is going to come into this because remembers that the army was going to supply its own propaganda, develop the german worker's party and the tolly society, do their work. And the propaganda they supply them with is, is a man who the army trains sense to classes to learn the art of public speaking and propaganda. And that fellow is corporal, add hitler.

So how does add hitler connect with the german workers party?

Well, you've been in the army during the war, the only regular job that had ever had kind of liked IT. So you often get the views, that whole thing, end of the war, he joined millions of other german soldiers who didn't have just now. He stays in the army.

He stays the army till nineteen to twenty one. He's on the army payroll at the very time in which he is able help them to set this up. What appears to have happened is this the button door phit organize the fully society that didn't, that had to try to do a pose cut.

There's actually a brief period of time in which the common is actually take over muni e um the bavarian soviet republic, which doesn't last very long and eventually the army volunteers put this down. Ah well that's going by the way, hitler is actually sitting in the barricks in munich's wearing a red armed band because he is technically part of the soldiers who have got over to the bevary an soviet republic. He seems to had flexible interest in this case um so once order is restored, so to speak, the army comes in to decide that well, one of the things we need we need have people who can lecture soldiers on on patriotic topics.

And so there is a particular captain by the name of coral mayer, sort of spots hitler. He later describes him as like a straight dog looking for a master. Hitler has a nc for public speaking.

Other soldiers will listen to him. Yeah, some people can do that. Some people can.

I resize. IT is good candidate for further training. And so I guess they bring him in.

They turned him into a quest called vain on kind of the asa man. He's an army propagandist. And then you've got this little outfit called the german worker's party IT. Essentially what happens is that hitler is sent in to take over leadership of that, which is what happens. He shows he attends the meeting.

There are like fifty people there, by the way, that the topic of the the first meeting he is that is how and why capitalism should be abolished, kay, which is not what you might will expect. And because remember, the german worker's party is trying to cast itself as a counter bullshit ism. So it's not saying that capitalism is great.

Much is important. Now capitalism is evil. We are upon that. We just degree, he has to be destroyed for me. Nationalist point of view as opposed from some sort of strange internationalist point of view.

So IT looks essentially, as I see IT sin by the army, is their trained man to assume leadership within the small party and to use IT for the army's patch riot propaganda campaign. And is the season doing so even to the name change to the national socialist or german workers party? I mean, really, what sounds more red than that? So the interesting .

thing here's from, where did anti statism step into this whole thing? IT seems like the way they try to formula counter marxism. It's by saying the problem with capitalism and the problem with marxism is that it's really judeo capitalism. And quote, judeo bullism. From where did that ideology seem?

Well, it's a huge topic. Where does anti semitism come from? Mainly, let's start with that term itself, a term which I really grown increasingly to dislike because IT doesn't actually say what IT means.

Anti symmetry. Sm is anti jewish. M, I thought that is, i'm not sure whether there is never existed a person who hated jews, arabs and multis equally.

But what's kind of hard to imagine, I don't know, but that's that's technically what that would mean because let's face IT, most sides are arms. So if you're an anti mite, then you don't seem to distinguish. Choose from arabs makes no sense. The origin of the term is invented by, guess what, an anti seven.

I am kind of the eighteen seventies german journalist, but the name of vill helmar, who is, wouldn't you know, IT part jewish himself, and who decides that you really need a Better term than yudin host juhasz, was the term that, because that just sounds so, you know, in elegant, doesn't IT OK, what do you want to call yourself a jew hater or an anti mite, anti semitism? It's got that is in part of the end of IT, which means is a system of belief thing that has an ism must somehow be scientific and important. So part of the one thousand nine, the century obsession with bring trying to bring science into something unware.

The other is so we're going to hit rid of jee hate and we're going to turn IT in anti semitism, and we're only going to be talking about jews, but we will never actually say that. And somehow the invention of a johar to disguise the fact that he's a jeter, even though he's partly jewish, by inventing the term anti semitic m work, because everybody has bought at repeated to her sense. So no, I don't know this. Maybe just because anti juice m would just be that is IT too direct in some way. Would we have difficulty confronting, actually, what is we're dogg about?

I do, which terms were a little bit more directed self monet, yeah. Jew hate is is a Better term.

Well, the question that comes, what exactly do you hate about juice? And a lot of this has to do with you. Go back part of the nineteen th century, if jews were hated, they were hated for religious reasons.

In Christian year, they were hated because they aren't Christians, and they existed, is the only kind of significant religious mind already. But, but other than that, they tended to live separately. They had little economic influence.

Juice hanted live in, settles in the east together, s elsewhere. And they were that some were involved in banking in business. But they, they, they sort of remained segregated from much as society that changes when negative, the one hundred and century, and with west called jewish manana page.

And that means that between about eighty one hundred and eighteen fifty, most european countries drop the various legal social restriction against juice. They are simulated into the general society. So ideally you stop being a german too, and you become a jewish german.

Is there two very different important concepts? And what that does, of course, is that he opens up the professions business world elsewhere. So jews move, who had been largely within these arms to begin with, they had to had a good deal experiencing experiences in banking business.

And they move into those areas and professions and become quite visible. And that's what then creates antisemitism because in some way that is seen as part of the of the of the changes that that have taken place. And there are a lot of things going on here.

Part of IT has to do with the kind of reaching social and economic changes that took place with industrializing. So one of the things to keep in mind is that in the process of industrializing, just like today, whole classes of people were, we're made extinct economically. Craft men, for instance.

So when factories came along and began to produce things with machines, all the crafts people who had made those things previously are now unemployed, go to workers wage labour in in factories. So there are winners and losers in industrialized. And what people saw in germany and elsewhere is that among this new sort of rising capitalism lead among these new professions, among the bureaucrats that are coming out of these Virginia states, they were visibly fair and go juice.

So in some way, the rise of jews in the minds of many people were connected to all of the other bad things that were going on. Now the world was changing in the way we don't like, and seemingly the use are prospering while I am not. And that was to in germany, as word you became highly visible in the professions, they became very visible.

And banking, they became visible in legal professional. They invisible in the medical profession, and those are people that a lot of people become in contact with, bankers, lawyers and doctors. They were not the majority there, but vastly over route, represented in terms of the general population, and especially within the cities.

So in that sense of the use of anti sympathy me is that jews in germany and elsewhere, and not just in germany, y by enemies, france, britain, everywhere, who else became identified with the bad changes that were that were taking place. And but you also found that the jews were none only prominent among capitalists. They were also promoted among in in the socialist movement as well.

So one of things you could look around, we return to germany in one thousand nine hundred and fifty, and in the aftermath of world, who are one. And you look around in the area or elsewhere, you tender fy that there are a lot of jews and visible positions on the german left. Rose, the luxury g is but one example of that oiga leva.

Either you had some of them came in from russia, you know, when the soviet sent a representative to germany in this period, it's Carola tic a you so IT wasn't difficult to exploit that, to argue that just as the links of capitalism was full of juice, the rinks of bulshed ism, or of the revolutionary left worthy of juice, because you can easily go around and distinguish a great many of them. They don't have to be the majority. They just have to be numerous, prominent, invisible, which they were.

So this provided you a, and in case of the propaganda, the german army, the type of stuff that hit the dispute out, that they could put all the anti capitalist rider, and they wanted to the army. He was never gonna through capitalism. And the capitals knew they, we're going to do IT.

So go ahead. You know, talk shit about us. We don't really care. That's not going to be because we know that the army would prevent that from happening. The way to then undermine the real enemy of the same.

The the revolutionary left was to point out the the jewish influence there. I mean, look at russia. Well, then is up at trusty.

There is, look, there's a jew. There is one. Radic is a jew. IT wasn't hard.

Define them in that regard. You gave a lecture on the protocols of the elders of ion. It's why they considered to be the most influential work of anti semitism ever perhaps can describe the text.

Well, the protocols they learned elders of sign. Is probably one of the most troublesom and destructive works of literature that has ever emerged. And yet its origins remain obscure. So you get a whole variety of stories about where IT came from. So the one story that is often used that IT was IT was the work of the okra a.

The russian secret police in in particular, IT was all crafted in nineteen two four and nineteen o five uh in ah in in paris there's a whole description of a period rush coz ski who was the supposed with the chief of the okra at the time, was the man behind IT and other filling but the name of movements, al of vince I was the draft of IT and that they they had this document, a written by a french political writer from some decades back, called dialogue hill, between mckelvey and montague, which they were then adapting. The usually has argued that they they playgirls ed IT into the protocols and and none of that is is really true. I mean, the first part about IT is that at the time they supposedly took place, rochelle, I wasn't working for the occupied, had been fired and he wasn't in paris.

And the whole situation which is described couldn't have taken place because of people who did IT weren't there. It's a story. But IT provides a kind of explanation for so the protocols emerge, so they get have to go back.

This is one of the things that I have found. Always useful in research has go back to the beginning, find the first place this is mentioned, or the first version, or the first iteration. Where does IT start? So go back to same Peters burg, russia run one thousand nine hundred and three, there is a small right wing antisemitic newspaper, publish their cos nama banner.

And IT publishes in the kind of serial form. A work doesn't credit with any original author. And this is the first version of the protocols of the garden elders design.

But what is actually describing is a judeo Masonic plot to rule the world. Those two terms are always combined together. And I fact in the earlier version, there's far more emotions of free Masons. And there are juice.

And it's, you know, the publisher's noma is is closely connected to thing called the union of russian people and union russian man, which was astanding existed to defend the empire against a version ticula ly, against what I thought was jewish diversion. When they also argue that the prominence of jews in revolutionary movement somehow prove that this was in some way, A A jewish revolution. But this is, this is not a mainstream newspaper, is not appealing to a mainstream population.

Very p people thought. But this is where IT appears, not even mine. That's two or three years before it's usually said to have been written.

Or the other version is that there's this crazy priest by the name of sergey and he wrote IT or attend actually hinted IT as an appendix to his work in one thousand nine to five now was was around before that. So neill's didn't create IT, who wasn't drafted in paris in nineteen and four and one, nine, nine, five. IT was serialized in the are right wing russian newspaper, ninety thousand three.

And by the way, we should say that these are twenty .

four protocols will .

IT IT that are, I guess, suppose to be like meeting notes about the supposed cbl were the juice and free mentions are planning together. A world domination was like meeting notes, right?

Protocol, or which russian turn basically for notes of meeting? Yes, well as no of meeting is the goofy things i've ever seen because what you've gone here, it's it's not notes. No one takes notes from a meeting that way.

What you've got is like the exposition of a bond villain, right? right? It's all of this ball, all them.

We're going to do this. And then the last thing you want to do is layout here. If get a plan for world domination, my suggestion would be don't write IT down. So it's not notes of a meeting.

It's it's again, it's another sort of narrative or story is being told IT bear no resembLance to the dialogue and hell between mucky ellia mountains you, but what IT is the best thing it's is not particularly readable in some ways. Uh, there was an italian writer, a treasury mics, who wrote a book translate in english called the non existent manuscript. And what is is, is that he takes the different versions, starting with the thousand nine hundred and two, one thousand nine hundred three versions, and looks to the other ones.

And and he tries to the process to reconstruct what he thinks the original al might have been. But the other thing he does, which was fascinating to me, as if he takes this whole sort of initial text and in in bull type, he indicates the paragraph, but more often sentences or phrases that appeared to be identical from the july work and they're just scattered throughout IT. There's no particular grammer reason to IT you don't plage arise that way.

I mean, who does that? Is sentence here, sentence there, which is LED to a peculiar theory of mine, which of course I will have to expand upon, which is that I think that the original author of the protocols with the same mars, Julie, I think what someone stumbled across was a work which he wrote and never published, and which he just drew, is exactly what someone would do working from your own kind of material. Because I know i've written things and then taken what i've written and then sort of we package that into something .

else subserial.

Yeah, same sort of thing comes out. Only sort of bits and pieces of IT remain. So why would Julie have done that? Julie was retaking about and whose career basically spend the eighteen fifties, eighteen seventies.

He's an obscure figure. I'm not even totally sure he existed. I mean, but if one of us think you go looking for him.

I love that you are a scholar of people that just kind of emerged like the darkness.

Ss, come from nowhere.

There's a crowd there also, and we should also say this was, I guess the original would be written on me. What's the language of the original russian?

russian. But my hunch is that that adopted from a french first, first of they're constant harping on free maces, which was that nearly as a big idea, is there if you go back to france in the eighteen nineties, there are some big scandals. Well, there's the drive of scandal that we got that are right where you've got a jewish officer on trial for being a trader.

Alright, so that was probably you bring in the whole jewish element juices, disloyal drive, this case eighteen ninety four. Earlier you had the panel scandal, which was this huge investment scandal, when the panel canal company in paris collapse. And again, many of the major players in network jewish financiers.

And then you've got the taxi hoax. So the taxi hoax was the work of this guy. His real name was, I think rogan puja is kind of a french journalist seat now. He started at writing porn.

So when he wrote things like sex lives of the popes and the erotic bible and various things of that kind, he was a catholic, broke with a catholic church, wrote bad stuff about the popes, and apparently became a free mission for a while, and then supposedly recanted his evil ways, went back to the church, and then, under the named leo taxil, began writing his whole series of articles, basically arguing that there was a mechanic satanic conspiracy y run, by the way, by an american, Albert pike. And this also included child sacrifice, it's got pizza. Yes, is well, by a high priest, Diana on.

And so there's like child sacrifice, you weird roby, bohemian growth stuff. And the free Masons are devil worshipers going back to the nights temples. And so there's a thing called the devil in the one thousand nine century, the secrets of free maserati.

And this became a best seller. france. So france is success below these, all these kinds of conspiracy.

So, evil c tank, free actions, evil jewish finance years drive this. This is the brew, or all of this comes. I want to figure out how free Masons and jews get connected together.

France is the place where this happens. Now, taxi or rogan pj, eventually pulls another interesting thing in around nineteen ninety. Critics argue that he's making this stuff up and demand that he present dian von suppose cynane hybridize popular killer. And he says out, we can have a press conference.

You'll appear and say all of this stuff as he returns to the church and possibly becomes a none and so people show up, you know, how figures in the catholic church ws up and he does no diamond on and do it's all the hooks I made IT up. You're all a much idiots for believing IT okay, you you member the church, especially just just about go morons you are. And as if he confesses IT to this day, however, you will find people who will insist that is actually true because he desperately wanted to be true.

But this is, I think, the menu that I like that work currently like that this comes out of. And this is, this is this whole kind of unhealthy mix. So france, to me, is the only place that in the decade proceeding IT, that something like this would be concocted.

So was either creative with some sort of unknown person there. But I still think that even though he dies like eighteen seventy nine, that in emerys really is troubled career. He went from being an opponent of french emo napoli the third, which is what, which is what the whole dialogue was written against.

And then he was, for a time, a close political hour of a french politician, but the name of adult crime. So adult crime, well, what he got going for, he was kind of a radical politician. He was an opponent, napoli in the third.

He was a free Mason. Oh, and he was jewish. In fact, at one point I think he was actually the head both of the Scottish right. In france, and I have been important figure in the israeli get, the jewish organization in france.

So he was publicly, very promptly, jewish and mesons ic, so someone else who would have linked them to get july, as he did with virtually everyone. This is a guy whose life largely consisted of dual threats and fish fights. So he gets, he gets angry at crime.

And it's exactly the type of thing that he might write to vent his spleen about IT. But he died probably a suicide that's kind of difficult to tell in observation. His son seems to have inherited most of his literary works.

And his son then worked for you, became a journalist, work for newspapers in france in the eighteen nineties, but was also associated with some people on the fringes of the okra a or the russian press in france. So one of the little things that had happened by this time, as in france and russia, become allies, even other political systems are completely incompatible. And so the russians were using money to subsidize french newspapers that were champion the alliance between the two russian medal.

Now you're just paying to have the right kind of newspapers come out. So there's this whole connection between the kind of russian journalistic world, french journalistic world and all of these scandals which are going on and jolie son. And then you know, ten years down the road, this thing pops up in the newspaper and saint Peter's bird, that's where I think the orient lay. Why do .

you think IT took off? Why do you think IT gram? A large number of people's imaginations. And even after that, I was shown to be not actually what is supposed to be. People still believe it's IT doesn't take .

off immediately. Kay never received any kind of wide I need nobody much reads the first edition of IT. When is IT? IT keeps getting.

There is something like eighteen or one thousand different versions as he go through and made IT gets get in a people leave this protocol out or leave another one. This time goes on, there's more and more emphasis on jews and less than less on free maps. So it's sort of and the whole thing could have begun as an anti meason ic track.

May you could leave views out of IT entirely and just turned IT into a Masonic plot to rule the world, but I just throw them in as well since the two things are already being combined elsewhere. IT doesn't become a big deal until I really after the first world war because the initial versions of IT are all in russian and ah let's face IT well that's widely read in russia. It's not much read anywhere else.

A different helps a bit. Nobody can even see what that means. So IT has no particular influence outside of russia.

But then you get the nineteen nineteen and you get all these different versions of IT. Since you get two english versions in the U. S, another english version in britain, a german decision, a french dish, a duck edition.

Everybody is coming up with these things. So it's not until i'm in the immediate aftermath of the first world war that this meta sizes and he begins to show up in all of these different foreign editions. And I think that just has to do with the changes that have taken place during the war.

Ah one of the things that people began looking for, who said why was there a war? I would have just had this whole disastrous war and the world has been turned upside down. So there has to be some kind of explanation for that, I don't know.

And one of the things this offered to see, there's this evil plan. There's this evil plan that has been put into motion, and this could possibly explain what's taking place. The reason with the protocols were, I think, widely bought then, and why they still are many ways, is the same reason that the taxi hooks I was talking about was because he told story that people wanted to believe.

So in france, in the eighteen nineties, there was widespread suspicion of free maces. They was seen as a somewhat since ister secretive organization, certainly secretive. And there is also in you the same sort of generalized prejuges about juice, clan ish, distinct, too much influence, all of the things that went on.

So you, he was sort easy to combine those two things together. And even though texel admits IT was a hoax, there were those who argued that this is just to its too accurate. IT describes things who completely to be a hoax.

And then you get the same arguments. In fact, I ve heard the same arguments with the protocol I don't believe in by this is as an example of plagiarise, because you can't actually prove what's being plagiarize sense. To me, the protocols are a prime example of what I call a turned on a plate. These things crop up.

I have to explain that ah IT, what is a turn on a plate? Well, a turn on a plate is a turn on a plate. Suppose you come in and there's a plate sitting on the table and there's a turn on IT.

Now the first thing you're gonna is, is, is that a turn? Is IT a human turd? Where did they come from? whose? Why would someone pop on a plate? There are all these questions to come.

Demand IT makes no sense, but that's what you come. Is just there, right? Yes, I don't know where I came from, I don't know why, but there's a turned on a plate and that's what the protocols. They're just there.

But the reality is just like with the turn on a plate, you take a picture that in modern day and IT becomes a mean, becomes viral, becomes a joke, and all social media was viewed by tens of millions of people or whatever. IT becomes popular. So wherever the tree came from, IT did captivate the imagination. IT did speak to something, but that .

seemed to provide an explanation.

Can you just speak to a jew? Hatred is IT just an accident of history. Why was that? The jews versus the free mentions? Is IT a the collective mind searching for a small group to blame for the pains of civilization? And then judge just happened to be the thing that was selected at that moment in history.

IT goes on the way back to the greeks. Let's blame them. So one of the first occasions you find the idea that jews are a distinct mean spirit, nasty people, goes back to and a grego egyptian historian named a manetho.

This is around, I think, three hundred B, C. Early, can't even rope the romans into this one. Simoni, though, is trying to write a history of the dynasty of egypt. I think his history of dynamics of egypt still, who is one of the basic works in this? But he tells this whole story, which essentially is cries the kind of first blood labels that they know, the jews, to celebrate their, you know, various religious holidays with capture greeks and patched them up in the basement and slaw of them and eat them or during their blood or do something. Yeah, it's just the sort of really a version of that kind uh also I think IT repeats the sort of egyptian version of the existence out of egypt, which is quite different than the biblical version um in this case, the egyptian they worked as they stole all the stuff out of the egyptian houses and ran off into the desert.

the juice to all the stuff and all yeah.

he was, he was robed. The egyptians, they they were taken in. We took them in and shelter them, gave them jobs and then they, like, stole all the jewelry and ran away.

We didn't even chase them. We were glad to see them gone. So it's a different it's a different narrative on that story but is essentially a portrays the jews is being is being hostile.

They don't like other people um there are contemptuous of other people's religions the rest of IT and say the greeks tend to to think of themselves is being extremely cause more poison. Now the greeks run across people worshipping other guys. They go this just our guys and their different names.

Every everything was sort of adJusting in their landscape. So you end up with that kind of of hostility, which was there at the time, and that was probably influence also by some of these early rebellion that had taken place in egypt during the roman period. You you not only have the judge in rebellion in seventy A D, but you have a couple of other uprisings in north africa and very bloody affairs, and in some cases, juice begin, master king, other people around them to start killing the greeks, that the greeks start killing them.

So there was a fair amount of, from that period. Ic, a certain amount of bad blood of mutual contempt between greeks or between halloes, between the people who became helonias. Ed, as the romans would be, and the juice and the romans also seems to developed much of that idea.

You know, they considered your day as being horrible place to have to govern, inhabited by A A stubborn, obnoxious people. Um not well liked. So that's really where you see the earliest version of that in.

The reasons for that would be. Complicated that, but you can say is that going back to manetho's, the roman period, jews judeans frequently experiences difficulties, conflicts with other people living around them. And part of that probably had to do with the diaspora, which was the movement that will be the room, everybody. Since IT was a poor, limited area, and moving into areas like north africa, egypt and aga all way in the southern france, then we widely run the roman empire. So that sense of both distinct tss and hostility existed since ancient times.

So IT wasn't just the attitude of the church towards jews, was mixed by, well, that one of the ideas, of course, is that, uh, at the end of time, you know, just before the second coming, one of the science, how we can only know that that jesus is going to return in the world, is going to end well. The juice will all convert. There will, there will be a mass conversion to sort of see the light now.

So they have to be jews around to do that. Or we won't know, like a canarian a goal. You have to have them there to tip IT off.

So that was one of the arguments as to why within the church, is why jews would not be forcibly converted beyond the fact that it's just kind of bad policy to forcibly convert people because you don't know whether it's it's sincere, but they need to be preserved as a kind of artifact quiz will then redeem itself at the end of time. It's not something which is encouraged. IT predates Christianity.

And in Christianity, of course, in its own way, just sort of cage rises. The whole jewish thing doesn't IT. I mean, I hesitate to use that term, but that's what you do is just like, well, were the jews now okay? You use have a unique relationship we've got but now has been passed over to us. And so yeah, thanks thanks for the bible.

You know, I can remember that and my mom's side, I was periodical exposed to sunday school and and pretty much the old testa was always presented as if it's somehow IT was the no, the history of, like, would like a Better term, you know, europeans in some way that he was sort of a Christian history. He was also quick called to that. And there there be some sort of elegant, the heat first, the term he room was always used, never juice. So, you know, the ancient hebrews, and somehow the hebrews just sort of became the Christians. And I don't know, the juice just got, they didn't get a memo or something.

So basically, like Christianity, the prequel is the the old investment there.

but they just to takeover OK. We we have a special disposition now. Thank you very much. You're an artifact.

so it's interest. So this this whole narrative ah there was says of the kind of viral .

meme started .

as he described three hundred B, C, and just Carried Carried on various forms and moves itself and arrived after the industry revolution into in a new form to the to the nineteen and twenty eighth century and then somehow captivated everybody y's imagination.

I think that modern and I symmetry sm is very much creation of the modern world in the industrial revolution. It's it's largely a creation of jewish h manini. It's the nasty websites that can you all of the restrictions that thrown off.

But now also you become the focus of much more attention than what you had to what you had before yeah proud that you had the the kind of idealization which worked both were in rabies, who praise to get a protection of just against the outside world, because inside we can live our life as we wish and where unmolested. Whereas if we were the great fears that if we were sort of absorbs into this larger world will lose our identity. That's what a question comes up in the eighteen and century.

And things like the husk, a movement in germany, because the german jews were always at the sort of cutting edge of a simulation. And modern nation moses mentals on was an example that arguing that, you know, we just need to become germans, so you, as much as possible synagogue's be, look like lutheran churches. Everything thinks you will be given in good german and and that's the way we we need to become jewish germans.

We don't, we don't want to become a kind of group of people who are. We are a part in that way. And that he's createth great tensions, every sense. You know, one of the essential points that seems to me in anti semitism, and I juice m, is that all the juices in this together, there's no one of things, okay. They're always talking about us if they are collective, juice this, juice that as if it's it's a single undifferentiated massive people who all move and speaks in the same the same way. From my personal experience, not being jewish um that i've incredibly diverse in many ways really one of the things that anti symmetry sm proposal is a continuity or a singularity of jewish identity that never existed.

Just like you said in one hand, there's a good story, in the other hand is the truth. And often times the good story wins out. And there's something about the idea that there's a cobo of people, whatever they are.

In this case, our discussion is juice seeking world domination, controlling everybody is somehow compelling story. IT gives us the direction of the people's to fight, of peoples to hate, on which we project our pain. Because life is difficult life for many, for most full suffering. And so we channel that suffering into hatred towards the other.

Maybe if you can just zoom out with you from this particular discussion, learn about human nature, that we, that we pick the other in this kind of way, and we divide each other, open groups, and then construct stories, and like, construct their stories, and they become really a viral and sexy to us. And then we channel the hatred. We use those stories to channel hatred towards the other.

Well, now you use something only recipient of that. I mean, any any time you hear people talking about jews desire that White people deserve, black people deserve. Asians desert, where they're undifferentiated ass, who apparently all share something in common.

Well, know, he is really thinking. And the other thing you'll find is that people who will express those views when press will argue that all this, if if they actually know anybody, those GPS they are okay. It's like noses.

They all, they go, uh, this isn't OK you, they're all right. They were. They were always been constantly making exceptions.

And what, you know, what they actually met and actually human being. And they seem to be fairly Normal. Well, they were okay. So what IT was, they hated work.

Actual people, for the most part IT was just this kind of gold walk vision that they have them you're not even talking about real people. Um I don't know. What does that tell you about human nature? Well, okay, in seventy od years, what have I learned about my fellow creatures?

One, I don't actually understand them any Better than I ever did, in fact, less so. Okay, I would say this when I was seventeen, I thought I had the world much more figured out. And I do now completely deluded.

But, you know, IT seem to make much more sense, like a categorize things basically upon human beings. Most people, most of the time are polite, CoOperative, in kind, until they're not. And the exact tipping point and moment in which they go from one to the other is unpredictable.

I probably put speaking of the tipping point, you gave a series of lectures on murderer crimes in the twin th century, one of the crimes they describe as the man's and family murder. And that combines a lot of the elements, what we've been talking about, and a lot of the elements of the human nature that you just described. So can you just tell the story at a high level, as you understand? IT.

the man? Sively, where you begin with cher's manson, is the key element in this. And cher's manson, for most of his life, up until the time ladies, around thirty three, is an unexceptional petty criminal in, in, out of prison reform school from an early age, not really associated with violent crimes.

He did stuff like steel cars, write bad checks, became an unsuccessful camping drug dealer. So around one thousand sixty seven, he gets out of his latest stint in federal walk up in terminal island. The los Angel is california.

By that time, he'd learned how to play the guitar, has ambitions to become a musician, and also declared himself a scientologist. Not that he ever seems to have practiced. That's what he, we claim that he was kind of know, self educated himself in in prison to a certain degree.

And so when he gets out of of prison in sixty seven, he was a model prisoner. He behaved himself, you know, but and seemed, you can sort of imagine his life is going into completely different direction and and here again, i'm gona say something kind of good about Charles manson, which is that he actually was a decent singer. If you really sorry, listen to some of the stuff.

He didn't he you know, it's not a great singer, but. He could have, you know, other people got recording contracts with less talent than he had, and they could play a guitar. The beach boys actually do record one of his songs without him.

How would you evaluate hitlers painting? And compared to child math.

well, you're supposed to say it's terrible, okay, okay and looks average to me. Ah landscape I mean, if you didn't know IT with hitler, yeah IT IT would you? I don't know what the you will say .

about IT sorry for the .

dix is an average painter that's what IT was, something like crazy genocide, mini act painting. I really have those. So mayson h he could have done that.

He probably could have, you know, he made certain inroads into the music industry. And if he had had been such a weirdo, he might have gotten further with IT, but his life could have taken a different terms. So this is one of the questions I have.

Where did the guy who becomes who's an unexceptional career, pete criminal, suddenly emerged into some sort of criminal mastermind, a spin guy, who can bend all of these people to his will and get them to go out and commit murder? As a as a real shift that you have. So the first thing that kind of could tell you that something odd is going on as he gets out of prison in L.

A. county. And he supposed, you is on parole problem, is supposed to have a job, not supposed to leave the jurisdiction of parole. He has straightfor the bay area violence pro right off the bed.

Two weeks later, he dressed into the pro office in the bay area, where upon he should a bit arrested and sent back to terminal island. But instead, they just assigned him a parade, or maybe things are easier than in some ways. So I guess, assigned a parole officer, Michael smith.

Michael Smith is initially handling a number of paroles, but after a while, once he takes on mats and he only has one parole, he supervising Charles manson, which is odd, and he also find that Michael smith, in addition being a pro officer, is a graduate student at the university of california, uh, studying group dynamics, especially the influence of drugs on gangs in groups. And he is also connected to the height ashbery free clinic, which is a place where the influence of cause, he ashbery head lots of drugs and lots of groups. So, you know, charlie manson never gets a regular job, hangs around with unit with Young girls.

X CS engages in criminal activity. He is repeatedly arrested, but nothing ever sticks for the next couple of years. So who gets that type of thing? Who gets to get out of jail? Free card informs.

So here is what? Again, this is speculation. but. Manson, at some point actually out of prison, is getting this treatment because he is recruit as a confidential .

for .

for who is the. Interesting question, so probably not for any local police departments. My best suspicion is probably the federal government and arctics quite to the D.

E. A. Yeah federal pro e federal pro officer come graduate student and drugs and group dynamics and eventually with permission he goes back down to L A.

And what is he part of when he's there? Well, he's on the fringes of the music industry. That's much one of these. That is the wills's in elsewhere, which also brings him to the fringes, the film industry.

So one of the things, if you're sort of looking in terms of hollywood music industry elites in the flow of our own, is also dealing in drugs and girls. So an early version of jeffrey besting. Yeah mass instructed lots of under age runaway and train them, use them also associated with biker gains who produced the drugs and seta.

So that's that's part of what he isn't informed, the movement of drugs basically within the film music industries. And he is giving pretty much a kind of free grain at that point. What then happens in August of one hundred and sixty nine is that there are these murder in offers sharing tate and her friends in seela drive.

I think everybody is probably pretty much her that story before. And of course, the question is why cielo drive, why share and tate for coasting in the rest that he gives them? Manson was familiar with the place he had been there before.

Members of he, the family had been there before, so he knew who I was. IT wasn't an easy place to find, made the way of that house, the house, the original house is no longer there, but the same sort of property in the houses built there. And if you didn't know where, it's not some place place to go for a drive in the hollywood hills and murder people in a house.

Well, that isn't the one that you would come across the list of connections there. A voytek for cock. I, who was one of the people who killed at the sale of drive house, was involved in drug dealing.

That's a possible connection between the two. Probably a fairly likely one, probably not unfortunate Sharon tate at all. He was probably in the wrong place at the wrong time. Her husband might have been, you never know.

And then the next night after the the slaughter there, which by the way, manson is not as this is one of the interesting is about this travel man doesn't kill any people. A his crime is supposed to like ordering the killings to be done. He supposedly um thought that the killings of the tailors were sloppy and he was even give everybody a crash course in how you currently commit simply want to murder.

So the next ninety he takes group of people over to the lab Young house in a different section of L A and you get me know a rose mary lobby ancha guys, a grocer, wife, friends, a dress shop, upper middle class and you know they're bound, gagged and hacked the death in ah as as at the tate residents various things like piggy here written various message you in blood, things that are supposed to look like cats pause because one of the girls trying to be framed for this with the idea was the black pandas. So the general story that comes out in the subsequent trial is that this was all a part of something called halter skeleton, which manson supposedly was an idea that that sounds like a beetle song, that's where he got IT from. He thought the beetles were talking to enter their music, and that there was going to be in apocalyptic race war.

Uh, and this was all part of a plan to sit this off. So this is why the black panthers were trying to be implicated in this. Although how IT was supposed to do that is never really explain.

Here is what I think he's really happening. What really happened in now. I think IT fits together before Sharon tate, in her friends or the lobby archers were killed.

There was a murder by members of the family of some of the same people involved in the later killings of a musician drug manufacturer. But any gary hymen. So manson again, was involved in the drug trade, and human made them.

He was a cook, basically handy, brew them up in his basement, sold the drug's demands, who sold them to biker gangs like the straights sentence, which was one of the groups that he used, they distributed them elsewhere. Well, one day the straight status show up and complain that the last batch of myth, or whatever IT was that they got from matson, he had made simple. The brothers very, very ill, and they're quite unhappy about that.

And they want to their two thousand dollars back. Mancy a got those drugs from gary hima, so he is unhappy, and he sends bobbi boss away, couple of the girls over him in his place to get the money from him. Is the stories a little related? I think psus in atkins hinman denied that there is anything wrong with these drugs and refuse to pay up which LED to a interrogation, torture session in which he was killed.

And the idea was here, what are we going to do with that? Well, one of the other groups that hymen had sold drugs to, or guess what, people associated with the black panthers. So we will leave these things that they will make them, what they will do IT.

So it's bobbi, both away, who then takes hinman's car and decides to drive IT up the coast, by the way, with a bloody knife with humans, blood and hair on IT and blood on the seats in the car. And then he pulls IT off the road and size sleep IT off and he gets busted, right? So find him man's body.

Find bossa in human's car with a bloody knife with him. Yet he is arrested. So both he was very popular with some of the girls there's contain in the family that Bobby has been arrested.

So how can we possibly get bobbi out of jail? Copycat killings. So if we could kill more people, and we make IT look the same, then see body, I couldn't possibly have done IT.

Now, see, he just borrowed the car. Okay, he stole the car, but the knife was already. And he he didn't have thing to do with this. So that, to me, makes the most sense out of what followed.

How often do people talk about that theory? That's an interesting theory.

Well, IT is there is is not the wanted that bugle. Also, I wanted to go with healthy character because I was. And IT was a story that people could understand.

yeah. And IT was sensational and he would catch on also another probable issue, and that was that his star witness was Linda asian lda. sabean.

SHE was present at both the tate in albiona murder. SHE didn't participate in the killings. According to her, SHE drives the car, but everybody else talked about what had happened. Well, okay, SHE turned states evidence and gets total immunity.

And it's largely in her testimony that all the rest of the cases based now, if you start throwing into the equation, that SHE proclaimed her love for bobbi both away and this could, and that SHE, according other's, was the chief proponent of the copycat killings. Well then that we get messy. Now there's one guy at the center, this, it's Charles manson. He ordered all of this done to ignite a race war, even though, how would anyone do IT OK?

So that doesn't make sense. But he is never the less at the center of this because he's the clue of the family, right?

He exerts a tremendous in a psychological control over them.

How was he able to do that? So like what? Because he said he was a petty criminal. He doesn't use pretty prolifically his petty crimes when he he did a lot of them.

he had a lot of access to elicit OK. Okay, which he started getting at the free clinic. His sanford is go. So lots, lots of IT floating around.

Some descriptions of the family bond ranch is that people were basically taking us than a daily basis, which, by the way, was also a potential problem with Linda a sabeans testis SHE also admitted to being high most of the time and also thinking, he was a which right? So you want to put her, okay, where do you want to go with that? See if manson wasn't manson, if he hadn't acted like such a complete, if he hadn't actually acted like the crazed, hip, psycho goofball that google oc painted him is being, then cassava s testimony wouldn't have been as strong because you couldn't mean the first thing against us.

You've got in the immunity for for telling the story, the prosecution, what's that's a little if y and we wanted be bringing the witch and the drugs and bring in love with bob both. So if man, you know, been dressed like you sitting the student to, I am, you know and and they behaved himself and spoken Normally, things money. This isn't to say that he wasn't guiltiest hell.

So he supposedly did was to inspire all of these killings. And I think that's probably in a sort of beginning with the hymen killing. He told him to go there and get the money, one where the other, I know what there's clear here, where they told him he don't get the money, kill him, but pimm's dead.

And then we might also seen the value in terms of having copycat killings is away of throwing off in the other kind of plan. The other story again, is that one of the people who had lived at the cell house for sharing tate was before was a record producer in tary melter. Mills's, supposedly is the journal story goes, had watched on a deal with manson in terms of a record contract and screwed of a manson and some sort of a record deal.

And manson wanted to get revenge and something to kill everybody in the house. What you can doesn't make as much as one. Manson knew the melt was not living there anymore.

He probably knew where melcher was living. If he wanted to get melter, he could. He found him IT wasn't difficult to do and. So that's it's not revenge on Terry melcher. They drew him there.

He was familiar with the house of the idea was simply commit random killings that would throw, they would mutter, the whole waters with the hinman killing that you might pick some place you knew, if you knew the place with run in author, be someone there, you really didn't care. In the same way that the law, bianca, seemed to have been meaning, was familiar with that, because it's supposedly had been the scene of a creepy crawling. This is little interesting things that this family would be thought to do. A creepy crying is when you're sneak into somebody's house at night while there there a sleep or when they're not there and you move things around. So when they get up in the morning that they come home, they've suddenly ly notice that someone has been in their house, which will freak them out, which is the whole point of that but IT doesn't .

seem like the murder the creepy crawling was the could be you call ling me to be but doesn't seem like the murder like some yeah the people you have you've covered like the audio killer. The murder is the goal. Maybe there's a some psychopathic kind of artistry to the murder that the oda killer head and the messaging behind. But IT seems like with the at at least the way you're describing with the Charles manson family, the murder was just the they just had a basic disregard for human life. And the murder was as a consequence of Operating in the drug underworld.

So manson set up a kind of bed, I think, called spd movie ranch, which was an old movie ranch out on the north's west and they just kind of camped out there. Um he used the girls, in particular sleekly frome, to get the owner Operator, I think, George pod, to let them hang out there. And basically SHE slept with him.

He was perfectly happy to let them hang out. They also had a place out of the desert that they had. They dealt credit card for odd stolen cars, was kind of a chop shop that they ran out of the place. So he had yet a fairly good little criminal git going wis with the protection he had probably would the one thing they couldn't cover him on his murder.

So you think there was, if he was an informing, you think there are still a connection between D, A, F, B, I, C, A, whatever with him throughout this question .

is there is a book written this by thomie cocos. And that same thing is the easiest thing to get through. There's a lot of material there.

I don't think oi al necessarily knows what to make a some of the stuff I came up with, but he does a very good job of sort of demolishing the whole look leo s narrative. In one of the people he mentions is a name that I had run into elsewhere. And so I really paid attention to, and I saw again, and the name is reave ve Watson.

Reef whitson shows up on the fringes, even though he has no judicial function. He sort of hangs around blio see in the prosecution he's some sort of advice. He just kind of there in the same way that he was one of these guys.

You know, he grew hair kind of long or bell bottoms, hunger around the music community and elsewhere in hollywood. But no one could tell you exactly what he did. I know he did later, but a decade later, he shows up as A C. I. A officer in central america.

So reave wiltern later in its current least A C I A what was he? In one thousand nine hundred and sixty nine what is he doing in this um the only thing about IT is he appears to have been the person who called there's all the question of when the bodies see hello driver discovered so the general story is that sharing tates housekeeper shows up on eight thirty in the morning, finds the body seen of screaming next door but there is another fellow who knew I think the owner of the house is photographer plus may be happy he gets a call role in the morning saying their big murders there. And the person he recalled calling him his reef Wilson.

So someone had been at the house before the bodies were discovered, and they had not called the police. So I don't know what's going on there, but say, um it's a curious kind of of situation. And man said, in a lot of ways, just kind of self immolates himself in his behavior of the trial's bizarre is threatening, is disruptive.

You know, he's got his girls out in the street carving excess net forehead, Carrying knives. One of the attorney is initially his attorney, ron hues, becomes manhattan attorney and he figures out the three girls supposedly on on charlie insistence are gna confess and they confessed IT was all their idea and truly had nothing to do with IT. He just doesn't like this because his defense for her is that he was under his influence and therefore not responsible for her own action, says he was in having psychic control, so he refuses to go along with that is a brick.

In the trial, he goes camping up in the mountains with some friends, disappears during a rainstorm, and then some months later, his decomposed remains were found. Now, rumors, always the rumors. Okay, what would history be without rumors? How that h see members of the family? They were.

They were pissed off at ron huge because he messed up charley's idea to get him off. And so they killed him. Um maybe they did maybe drown.

That's that's absolutely impossible to say you got that kind of story. There's a guy won flyin, who was an employee at the spd. Rh didn't like manson, held manson responsible for the murder of his boss.

He would testify that manson told him that he had ordered all the killings, and that manson also admitted that he had killed thirty five people. Maybe he did. On the other hand, one flint didn't like him when he had no other than his war, had no real proof what he was saying.

So please understand me in this case is that unlike some people who argue that Charles masson got a raw deal, I don't think that's the case. I think that he influenced tremendous influence over the people there through drugs, through sex was another frequent component in IT um he had a real family, me, over of these people's miles. I'm not sure how that that still kind of puzzles me is a scrunch guy and he wasn't physically intimidating.

I mean, even a lot of women wouldn't be physically intimidated by him, but he never always had this real psychological power and they were. And if you look around him, the the male followers ahead wasn't we're fairly big guys so he can get people to do what he wanted. And again, to me, the simplest explanation for this is that IT began with the hymen killing, and probably on manson's instigation, the others recover killings to throw off. What was going on that would if I was a cup, that's what I would focus on because that seems to make the most sense.

It's still as fascinating that he's able to have that much psychological control over those people without having a very clear ideology. So it's a cult.

yes. The great, the great focus on truly the leader they have the excessive devotion.

But there's not like maybe there's not an ideology behind that like do something like scientology or some kind of religious, some kind of, I don't know, uh, utopian ideology, nothing like this.

No, I I think that manson again was essentially a criminal IT is sociopaths d set and if head upon a pretty good deal.

Yeah but like, how do people convince anybody of anything? The call, usually you have either an ideology or you have, may be personal religion. You said sex and drugs. But underneath that, can you really keep people with sex and drugs? You have to have convince them that you love them in some deep sense, like there's a like a common of love.

You don't have a lot of people there in the code. They don't. They have some sort of we like to call this functional families.

Yeah, a lot of the females in particular, seem to have come from no more or less middle class families, but those are full of this function. You know, their parents didn't love them, their semi runaway, and now they had this whole family. Yes, a lot of the Young women had children. Yeah, some of them by manson, some of them by the others. They sort of bonded together.

And again, we return to that, that pull towards belonging, that gets us humans into trouble. So IT does seem that there was a few crimes around this time. So the audio ua.

well, california, but i'm from, I remember this period vividly OK. So by the way, the the tate lobby arc killings occurred on my birthday, the year I graduated from my school. So I remember this .

happy birthday term .

has been used for that. There's a right of with the new tod wood who's joined. I wish i'd come up with this california and which is just sort of a chronicle of the serial killers and disappearances in the late sixties and seven. So you've got the zodiac. I've got the one.

I mean you know I hate to say IT i'm not trying to be floppin about but I mean Young female hitchhikers were disappearing an alarming rate in northern california um their bodies that have never been attributed something the the duty ax victim's buddy was a dangerous time at my camper the coed killer was was another one that there were a lot of creepy psychopaths running around. I don't know if there was something in the water or what was going on, but IT was a missing in some cases hitching, especially if you were alone and female was not you wanted to do in much of the gold in state, certainly, and out around the the area. So are there one of these strangers of killings that we're going on the zodiac is it's one of those things where there do you have these people have theories about IT, and if you don't share their theory, then you're part of the problem.

And some former others. So i'm not sure for us this that the zoo killings were all commit about the same person. I think there might have been multiple people involved.

And you know, the first killings are all of couples very sort of clear that they remember in my examination of one, one of the things I was looking at, specific, what else is there to say about this zi at killing? So what I was gna look at is that there are all of these accusations that there is an a cold aspect to IT. There is some sort of results, tic aspects.

So I look at different things, locations, victims, phases of the moon is always worth looking at. I didn't find much correspondence in any of those in one of the killings. I think the one in lake barrister, he does appear in this kind of weird hooded costume.

You know, he's got his symbol, sort of compass or aiming rectally. Now circle, what across do they can read? Mean, a variety of things. He used guns and he use knives, but he's certainly had to think for couples, except in the last to the killings, which is of a cab driver in downtown annan's co. Who he shoots in full view of witnesses, who he is completely a typical the end.

Also when he was stabbing the victims, IT IT doesn't seem like he was really a good at IT or if the goal was to kill them, he was a very good at IT because some survived.

Yeah, he doesn't. He's not particularly throw about IT. He seems to have much more more the violence seems to be a directed the females in the males.

So I mean, there there's a couple of questions to ask here. First of all, the people see his face.

There is a composite drawing of his face, which I think is based upon the the stine killing, the cab driver killing where there were people who saw him, or if he claim ed, that they saw him. The other was were all when I was fairly dark, right? I'm not sure that anyone else got to look at his face. The one that occurred in the daylight at barry as so he was wearing a mask. So there's something in common initially in the targeting of victims, which doesn't in the last case.

Then after that, there is the different cases of where there's a pretty good case to be made of a woman who claims I think he was SHE in her, a small child were picked up, her car broke down SHE get a flat tire SHE was picked up by this guy who SHE got a very sort of strange vive for a movie. We just let her go. Well, yeah, that might have been the only active IT might not have been.

You are this rigorous looks .

saying on I O K.

what is the actual facts that we know? I reduce IT to the thing that will offer. sure. And in speaking about his motivation, he said that he was collecting souls.

souls for the day after life, for the after life. That's kind of a county.

yeah. I mean, that's what I believe, is that the vikings of the romance, they believe this. In battle.

you are essentially making sacrificial victims, and they will be your ghostly servants in the after life.

Do you think he actually .

believe that? Who knows? I mean, here's the question.

Was he making that up just to be scary? Or is that what is actual? That's what he's saying.

His motivation is. So let's take him at face value rather than trying to. Wish that into the corn field to get rid of IT. Let's just take IT if he so his claiming that he's he's killing these people in order to acquire slave servants in the afterlife. He will subsequently go on to claim many more victims and pressure with forty four, eventually he will have for just kind of vanishes.

One of the really interesting clues to me when I was looking at that case, which I didn't find anybody else attended, to make much of IT, is that IT all has to do with this kind of halloween card that he sends to the present sentences go. And it's talking about sort of rope by gun by fire. And there's this whole sort of whoo still like this idea.

But what this is drawn from, where he got this from, is from a tim hold western comic book published in one thousand nine hundred and fifty one. And you see the same thing in the cover. It's quel fortune, but with different forms of grisly death on IT.

And all the things that he mentioned are shown on the cover of this. So whoever put together that card saw that comic book. Well, that's kind of interesting clue.

So what does that mean? He's a comic book collector. Who, when would he? And that is one, and also before he got the idea from.

So he is incorporating these things from the, then there are course, these codes, which people have know, which aren't all that difficult to decide for, probably because they weren't meant to be. The other thing you find, often with cereal or psychopathic hillers, is, are toying with the press. Mean, this goes all the way back to jack the ripper. Now they get attention, and then he just disappears.

Why do you think he was never caught?

I think they need to look for is something much should to go on me. There was a guy who was long as suspect, and then eventually he tested his D, N, A. And finit didn't that match any either things that theyd found? Uh, I again IT goes back to i'm not even sure that it's one person is a responsible for all of them.

Well, there one of the interesting things you kind of bring up here in our discussion of manson inspires this but there does seem to be um a connection. I shared inspiration between several killers here, the zoe act, the sound of sam later and the master FLorence. So is this is a possible there is some kind of gna underworld that is connecting these people.

Well, he takes his vote act, and you had his clients is collection souls with the afterlife. There are other things that are a cold dish connected to that. He may have picked some of the killing sites due to their physical location, to their position on in a particular place.

Uh if you look at the sun of sam case course, David berkowitz well on an off claim that the he was part of a setti coat that was Carrying out again these killings um most leave couples and Young women similar to to the odie c and that he had only committed some of them that was witnesses that others and that has really created the whole idea that yes, there is this some kind of say, tank cult which engages in ritual murder. Then if you go all the way to florets um you get murders. You go on on and off for a long period time, again, focusing on couples in isolated areas, which italian prosecutors ultimately try to connect to, some kind of satanic called, although i'm not sure they ever made a particularly strong case for that.

But that element comes up in all three of them. So you can, with a little imagination, argue that those similarities, that those things should come up in each of those cases in different places, either suggest that, oddly enough, psychopathic criminals also of thinking the same way, or that there is some sort of higher element involved in this, that they're some kind of common inspiration. Here again, you come back to something similar we're talking before about, do pedophiles exist? Do petofi.

okay? So do, do. so. Tiny costs exists. What I do right there is one of my home town, apparently quite harmless.

Then, far as I know, never did anything. No, but there there are people who health robes. Here we come again.

Robes cut the head off. A chicken naked woman is an alter. No, you can get off on that, I suppose if that's your thing.

So profess sadness is exist, satanic coals exist, cereal hills exist, ritual murder exist. Are those things necessarily connected? no. Could they be connected? yes. Kay, there's nothing. Don't ever tell me that something is just too crazy for people to do because that's that's crazy talk, right? You have study .

secret societies. You've gave a lot of amazing letters on secret societies. It's fascine to look at human history through the lens of secret societies because they've permitted all of human history you've talked about from everything from the next temporary to the mini free maces like we brought up free maces last at a long time elmina is you've talked about in its our mainly m less at a short time.

But it's legend. Never go away, never gone away. So maybe like element is a really interesting one. Who, what was that?

Well, the illuminated that we know started in the seventy and seventy six faceting put IT down to a day, the first of may, may day seventeen and seventy six in ingle start germany, founded by a professor, adam vice hopped IT wasn't initially called the illuminati because that's not really the name of the organization was called the order perfectible lists. Apparently that changed.

Vice off would say things like never let art organization be known under his real name anywhere, which leaves wondering what's is a real name. So illuminati, essentially the plural of illumine otis, which means one who is illuminated, one who has seen the light. So in roman times, Christian converts were illuminated because they had seen the light.

Anyone who thinks and there have been organizations called illuminate at that the terms not trademark, not copyright ded. Anybody who thinks they've seen the light about anything is an illusion. So IT defines nothing.

Ah the symbol of the order was an owl which interestingly enough is almost identical to the al, which is the emblem of the bohemian club. Oh boy, make you that what you will. I don't make that much out of IT because one out looks pretty much like another out of me.

But compare them. I you know, if you get a kind of wonder about this, a little is a little thing. Maybe there's some kind of connection there.

So but that supposedly has to do with the connection to the goddess minerva. And the I was sacred to her and the the order and the order was the the minor of all the person who was brought in. The number of levels changed over time.

There was a higher levels with the order that people the lower level didn't know about. Pretty typical for this. But the thing about vice health was that he was quite, he was a woman, is correspondent with members with his iluminada, both during the time that IT legally existed in bavaria and later on.

So vice self himself lives, I think, until eighteen thirty, diving gotto, which was ruled by any luminance prince. And so nothing ever happens to these. No, no luminances is ever put the death arrested in prison for any period of time.

What happens is that their plan? Well, what was his plan? His plan was to essentially replace all existing religions in governments in the world with a one world order governed by the luminary. So to do this, you had to subvert and destroy all the existing order and he argued the purpose for this is to, um we wish to make men happy and free, but first we must make .

them good all right?

So that's what the the order is all about course, he also said things like, oh, man, is there nothing that you won't believe OK the myth will be used in that also thought women should be brought into IT get rather interesting view about that was that we should appeal to women, in part because women have a chip on their shoulder because they're left out of things.

So we should appeal to their vanity on that point, and offered that in the future all things will be open and they will be emancipated. So we should hold out the prospect of female emancipation to attract them because he argued that in the short term, there's no Better at a way to influence men. Then, through a women, get women on our side by promising in a mancipation, when IT mature, will never actually deliver IT to them, because the future world will be a boys club.

So he talks about these things fairly openly, uh, and this is where you get this idea of some sort of a new world order wishes to be based upon the destruction of the existing order. So there are those who argue that there is a trail of descent that leads from illusion to the communist manifesto and effect communism itself, that marxism was simply a further restating of this idea. And you can draw some sort of kennet amid the idea.

Never entirely goes away. The bavarian government gets a hold of the orders, inner texts. So the story is there.

Who delivered to them? I think the advice helped gave them to, I think he engineer the exposure of his order because he gave him publicity by being exposed in bavaria. You gained great run out, and they continue to recruit after this.

And the bevary, an government actually bans the illuminati four different times. why? Because apparently the first three times didn't work. So the force ment does. You can notice that is like pepper bans on free miney and just go on and on and on because this clearly isn't working.

And you actually highly the difference with you, speaking of publicity, that there is a difference of chain of visibility and transparency that a secret society could be visible, IT could be known about, that could be quite popular. But you could still have a secrecy within that.

You have know if he was going on its side. Yeah, just like a black box. I set a black box on this table.

We can see that there is a black box. What's in the black box? A cat who knows?

And in fact, the secrecy y might be the very thing that makes you even more popular.

I advice something. Again, there is no more more thinking that I can seal the mystery, give people who can seal the mystery of us. So we need to make the order mysterious for that factories, and always hold out the possibility that knowledge, special knowledge, that no mere models have other than you will have in that way.

So he, since this, a lot of things are the use of a vanity and ego to recruit people to influence both men and women. It's it's quite sophisticated. And as you might expect from a professor canada law trained by jez otes. so. I certainly think that is seized when I was banned in bavaria, because everybody just scatters and goes elsewhere like paris and any of the french revolution.

So the idea of the illuminated the to put a cruelly, the branding is a really powerful on IT. And so IT immagine, sir, there's a thread connect IT to this day that a lot of organizations, a lot of secret societies can have .

adopt the body, can call you can get arma club call the.

And if you're effective at IT.

I think IT does attract .

is a chicken or leg. But powerful people tend to have gigantic eagles, and people gigg antic eagles tend to like the exclusivity of secret societies. And so there's a there's it's a gravitation force that pulls powerful of people to the society.

inclusive only certain. And you also notice something goes back to we're talking about much earlier, we're tired, but intelligence number, mice, ego, a recruitment in control that's a great kills in human beings and the exploitation of ego.

And of course, if we go back to the conversation, intelligence agencies IT would a be very efficient and beneficial for intelligence agencies to infiltrate secret societies, right? Like, because that's where the part of people are.

Was the secret societies info for the integration?

Boy, well, I mean, I did sex in all the lectures. I can have .

a sense .

of intelligence agencies themselves are kind of secret societies, right?

Well, comes down. I give you my definition of secret societies. But they come out to the one is that generally, their existence is in secret, is what they do is secret.

It's what's in the box supposed to the existence of the box. So in the most important criterion is that they are self selecting. You just done join, they pick you, they decide where the night you're going, they admit you when they often times they will sort of recruit you.

Once you have been recruit, you have to pass tests and initiations. And you also have to swear oath of loyalty. Those are always very, very critical.

So broadly speaking, what interest into an intelligence organza does they they decide whether you get in, you just not automatically get the job. You have to pass test one, a detector test, for instance, file training tests, whole variety of tests, and then you're sworn to secrecy. You never talk about what you do ever are the roby dire consequences? So the method is very much the same.

And also this idea of crawling and kind of in solar group, this the organization is us. And everyone else is outside that we are guardians of special knowledge. This, this is the time of the thing that would generally happen if you question whatever any kind of intelligence agency did what we know, you don't.

why? Because for the organization that knows, thanks, we collect information, we know the secrets, we guard the secrets. Therefore, if we tell you, you must believe us.

I have the sense that they are very powerful secret societies Operating today, and we don't really know or understand them. And the conspiracy theory inspirit might have something to them, but are actually actually not correct. So you know, effective, powerful secret society or intelligence agency is not going to uh, let you know anything that he doesn't want you to know.

right? They'll probably mislead you if you can stay close. So I think you know, the question is, what's the most powerful are important secret society, probably the one you don't know about, one that doesn't advertise its existence, the one which is never known anywhere under its real name. You've got things like the blaming club.

You've got the builder burgers, which is another sort of formed in the nineteen fifties, largely the creation of a guy of the name of yoga for reiner polish mysterious pears that you know where a schema, for years, a man expelled from britain, france and the united states at one point or another, long active in the mexican labor movement. Okay, reading girls. Mysterious figure, in fact, is, I think that they received a book with him, about him called immune greece, great eminence.

The fact he was the front man for the builder burgers was prince bar heart of the other ones who was at one point in nazi and then a dutch freeze fighter. Take your pick. But retinal is is the moving hand behind the whole thing and i'll be damp talking.

Figure out who redding er is. So the ideas that will you get, like influential people in media, business, politics, and you bring them together just to talk, to try to find common answers, are common questions. It's all very much sort of western europe, angle of european that is very closely sort of connected in the nado, the concept of a kind of atlantis world, which is essentially the Angel american combine combined with western europe.

But you get a bunch of these things. I mean, the castle foreign relationship very similar to that, and the build of verger son, he was an overlap with the bohemian club. And then you've got the P A circle or less circle, which is more military, but also linked to the so called secret gladio, the idea of the Sophia over and western youth.

There will be a stay bind organization called gladio. There be these freedom fighters. So the question I have about that is that how many secret organizations do you need? I mean, why all these separate groups, which often seem to have the same people into?

Yeah there's a the closer R I have looked, the more I wonder. The same question we asked about the russian intelligence agencies is where is the center of power? IT seems to be very hard to figure out. Does the secrecy scare you?

Well, I guess i'm one level uncomfortable that there's somebody actually making decisions I supposed to do. I mean, what what do you want? Do you want k OS? Or do you want everything kind of regime controlled? and.

I don't put much stocky idea that there actually is some small group of people running everything because if they were, he would Operate more efficiently. I do think that there are various disperate groups of people who think that they're running things or try to, and that's that's what concerns me more than anything else. Well, I hate to go back to them again, because if you bring up, you go back to the noses.

They had the a whole idea about a new world order, and they only had twelve years to do IT. Look what a mess they made. I mean, look at the damage, the physical damage that can be done.

Buy an idea inspiring a relatively small group of people controlling a nation. Based upon some sort of racial or ideological fantasy that has no real basis in reality and yet guide their actions. It's it's this different change that I always make, and I would try to get across the students between always be clear about what know and what you believe you don't know many things.

You know your name, you know when you were born, you probably know who your father is, but that's not absolutely that you've had A D N A test and only if you trust D N A S. So you know who your mother is. You believe this. Manage your father.

why? Because your mother told he was. So you believe things journal, because someone has told you this is a matter, but you don't really know for sure.

Well, because we know so little. We tend to go by beliefs. So we, we, we believe in this.

We believe in that. You know, you believe that your coat leaders is is the answer to everything. And IT seems to be very, very easy to get people to believe things.

And then what happens is that whether or not those beliefs have any real basis in reality, they begin to influence your actions. So here again, reGretably in some ways to bring you back to the national. What were the nazis convinced of? They were convinced that jews were basically evil aliens.

IT comes down to there. They weren't really humans. There are some sort of evil contamination, who which we must eradicate, and they set out to do that.

And then they were sure that there's just a few problems that can be solved. The once you solve them, that you have this beautiful utopia where everything would be just perfect, I would be great, and we can just get there. And I think it's really strong belief in a .

global utopia.

IT just never goes right. Well, that seems impossible to know truth .

for some reason. Not long go, I was listening on youtube to old wbi songs. Internet t be the workers the world. Don't know why, I don't know. There was a whole album of ably songs but and there was one of them call commonwealth of toil and it's like most of them, they're sort of taken from gospel songs and is talking about in in the future you know how wonderful everything will be in the commonwealth of toil that will be, and the leader, revolutionary lefties, in this case, warbles. But it's like, it's like a prayer for for communism.

Everything now in in the future, everything will be good, because the earth will be shared by the toilers and you from each visibilium according to his me, it's this kind of sweet little song is somewhere. But I am just sort of imagining this, you know, if I was gonna ge, that i'd have like this choir children singer with a huge ham and sickle behind because that's that's what it's combining. And you can think that the sentiments that expressing that song, which you know our legitimate in some way of all the horse that the that thing need to IT.

is investing about humans. A beautiful idea on paper, an innocent little idea about utopian future, can lead to so much suffering as so much destruction, and totally the unintended consequence. Ces.

you see all of unintended consequences.

and we learn from IT. I mean, that's why history is important. We learn from IT. hopefully. Do we slowly or slow learn?

I'm unconvinced of that. But perhaps speaking .

of unconvinced, what gives you hope if human beings are still here, maybe expanding out into the Cosmos, one thousand, five thousand, ten thousand years now? What gives you hope about that future, about even being a possible future, about happy?

Most people are CoOperative and kind most of the time. and. That's one of those things that can usually be depended upon, you know and usually you you'll get back to what what you put into IT.

Another thing that I have like a weird fascination of watching our people who have melt downs on airplanes. Because that's just. Bizarre the people who .

that there .

is some sort of psychotic break that occurs and and though and it's always going to end the same way the cops, you're going to come on a drag you off the plane. Now two of those, you and you're going to inconvenience everybody there. And in usually sometimes they don't care about that.

That's that's a one little sense of power that they have. So they have some sort of lot that sense of power lesser and of the only way of power is just to pissed off everybody else on that plane. They're gone to go ahead and do IT even though it's going to lead nowhere for them.

And there are similar sometimes psychological behavior in in traffic, the all the old age. It's fascinating .

and I bet the most excited there again, those are all people who have, to some point, work offered even and kind employee e, and then they snap. So those are all part of the human makeup as well.

But also part of the human makeup difference between humans and chimps is the ability to get together, CoOperate, mass scale over an idea, create things like the roman empire, didn't laws that, uh, prevent us and protect us from crazy human behavior manifestations .

of a man's are to get, this is completely peculiar. I'm not sure they were all together natural.

but I think we are all together beautiful. There is something magical about humans, and I hope humans stay here. Even as we get advanced robots walking around everywhere, the more more intelligent robots that claim to have consciousness, that claim they love you, that increasingly take over our world. I hope this magical things that makes us human subsist.

Well, let us hope so.

right? You're an incredible person, do you? So so much fascine work and it's really i've never .

had anybody asked me, is many interesting questions as you. So thank you .

many questions. So fun. Thank you so much.

Should talk to you. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to this conversation with expense to support this podcast, we check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you some words from john N. F.

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