#449 – Graham Hancock: Lost Civilization of the Ice Age & Ancient Human History
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The following is a conversation with gram hancock, a journalist and author who for over thirty years has expired the controversial possibility that there existed law civilization during the last ice age and that he was destroyed in a global category.

M, from twelve thousand years ago, he is the presenter of the networks documentary series ancient apocalypse, the second season of which has just been released and is focused on the distant past of the americas, a topic I recently discussed with the archaeologist ed by heart. Let me say that ed represents the kind of archaeologist scholar I love talking to on the podcast, extremely knowledge ble, humble, open minded and respectful and disagreement. Now do many more podcasts on history, including ancient history are distant.

Past is full of mysteries. And I find IT truly exciting to explore those mysteries with people both on the inside and the outside of the mainstream, in the various disciples involved. And now, or quit your second mention of sponsor.

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I drink IT throughout the day i'm drinking and now, and i'm actually pretty low and water and elections at the moment because I did a really hard training session. The training section was about an hour half day. They only took one round off, just a hard training round after round after round.

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This episode is also brought you buy a Better help, spell the H E L P, help they figure out what you need and match you with a lessen their person under forty eight hours, I think, at the end of the pocket gram called death. A leap into the next great adventure, something like that, remember, that made me smile, I can a smile that just warms my heart. And the warm stays there for time, is a kind of joyful h acceptance of the transparent nature of life.

Those words in the way he said them, and just as he said, death indeed is one of the great concerns for us humans, whether we acknowledged or not. IT is the darkness beneath the surface waves of our daily concerns. At least I persons believe that there is a fear there, great fear that must be confronted and developed with and integrated into our conception, what IT means to be a human being and how to survive the waves.

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Let's start with a big foundational idea that you have about human history, that there was a an advanced ice age civilization that came before and perhaps decided what people now call the six cattle of civilization missip tania. Egypt, india and china, india and as america. So let's talk about this idea that you have new at the highest possible level.

Describe IT IT would be Better to describe IT as a foundational sense of puzzlement and in complete ness in the story that we are taught about our past, which envisages more or less there have been a few ups and downs, but more or less straight forward evolutionary progress. Um we start out as hunter foragers, then we become agricultural. Alist, the hundred for ridge phase could go back hundreds of thousands of years.

Uh, I mean, this is where is also is also important to mention that anatomically modern humans, and not the only humans, we had nine hundred thousand from to know four hundred thousand years ago to about forty thousand years ago, they were said in human, because an automatic modern humans interbreed with them. And we Carry, we Carry the anthill genes. There were the dinosaurs, maybe three hundred thousand to perhaps even the recently as thirty thousand years ago.

Again, interbreeding took place. They are obvious ly human species. So, you know, we ve got this background of humans who didn't look quite like us. And then we have anatomically modern humans, and I think the earliest anatomically modern human skeletal remains are from jubilant hood in morocco date to about three hundred and ten thousand years ago.

So the question is, what where our ancestors doing after that? And I think we can include in the hundred thousand, the dinosaurs and in that general picture, and why I did IT take so long. This is one of the puzzles, one of the questions above me. Why did you take so long when we have creatures who are physically identical to us? We, we cannot actually wait and measure their brains, but from the work has been done on on the cryin ier IT looks like they had the same brains that we do with the same, the same wiring.

So so if we've been around for three hundred thousand plus years at least, and if ultimately in our future was the the process to create civilization or civilizations, why didn't happen so on? Why did IT takes so long? Why was IT such a long time? Even the story of of anatomic modern humans has kept on changing. I remember a time when I was said that there hadn't been anatomically modern humans before fifty thousand years ago and then I became one hundred and ninety six thousand years ago with the findings ethopia and then three hundred and thousand years ago. Um there's a lot of a lot of missing pieces in the in the puzzle there.

But the big question for me in that timeline is why didn't we do IT soon now? Why didn't IT take so long? Why did we wait until after twelve thousand years ago, really after ten thousand years ago, to start seeing the beginnings, what are selected, the beginnings of civilization in in places like, like turkey, for example.

And then there are relatively slow process of adopting agriculture. And by six thousand years ago, we see ancient summer emerging as a civilization. And where then in the predominant period in ancient gypt as well, six thousand, six thousand years ago, beginning to see definite signs of what will become the the dyas tic civilization of egypt about about five thousand years ago.

And interestingly, rought about the same time you have the installed y civilization popping up out of nowhere. And by the way, the industry civilization was a lost civilization uh until the thousand nine hundred and twenties when uh railway workers accidentally stumbled across some ruins. I've been to harrap er and more injured ara h and these are extraordinary, beautifully centrally planned the cities clearly there the work of and already sophisticated civilization.

One of the things that strikes me about the industri civilization is that we find A A steatite seal of an individual seated in A A recognizable yoga posture. And that seal is five thousand years old. And the yoga posture is not abandon asana, which involves a real contained tion of the ankles and twisting the feedback.

It's an advanced yoga posture. So there IT is five thousand years ago. And then rais the question, well, how long did yoga take to get to that place when I was already so advanced five thousand years ago? What's the what's the background to this? China, the yellow, the yellow river of civilization? Again, it's a round about the same period five to six thousand years ago.

You get these first signs of something happening. So it's very odd that that all around the world we have this this sudden upsurge of civilization about six thousand years ago, proceeded by what seems like A A natural evolutionary process that would lead to to a civilization. And yet certain ideas being being Carried down and manifested and expressed in in many of these and many of these different civilizations.

I just find that that whole idea very puzzling and very and very disturbing, especially when I look at this radical break that takes place in not just the human story, but the story of all life on earth, which was the last great categorising that the earth went through, which was the Younger dius event IT was an extinction level event. Um that's when all the great megahit of the ice went extinct. It's after that.

It's after that event that we start seeing this. What what are taken to be the beginnings of the first gradual steps towards civilization. We come out of the upper pilot thic as it's defined, the old end of the old stone age and into the neolithic. And that's when the wheel are supposedly set in motion to start civilization rolling.

But but what happened before that? And why did that? Why did that suddenly happen then? And I can't help feeling, and I felt this for a very long while, that there are major missing pieces in our story is often said that i'm claiming to have proved that there was an advanced lost civilization in the ice, and I am not claiming to have proved that that is hypothesis that I am putting forward to answer some of the questions that I have about about prehistory um and and um I think it's worthwhile to inquire into those possibilities because the Younger dance event was a massive global catechism whatever caused IT. And it's strange. But just after IT, we start seeing these these first signs.

So the current understanding in mainstream archology is that after the Younger dress is when the citizen popped up in different places of the globe. But a lot of similarities, ties, but they popped up independently .

dependently. And by coincidence, and by coincident those big civilizations that we all remember as the first civilizations sumeria, egypt, industry, I, civilization, china, they all pop up at the pretty much the same time .

um that pop up build up gradually. First there's some settlement and then there's a different dynamic how they build up in the world, the role of agriculture, and that is also non obvious. But it's just there's a first account settlement, a stabilization of where the people are living and they start using agriculture, then they start getting urban centers.

And that IT ms, like an entirely reasonable argument. Everything everything about that makes sense. There is no doubt that you're seeing uh, evolutionary progress, uh, social evolution taking taking place in those thousands of years before summer, uh, emerges. But what's happening now, really, I spent much of the nineties on the late one thousand nine hundred eighties, investigating this issue of a lost civilization.

I wrote a series of books about IT, but by two thousand and two, when I publish a book called underworld, which was the result massive and most heavy book that i've ever written, because I was writing very defensively at the time. By the time I finished ed that book, my wife, santon, I spent seven years, cuba, diving all around the world, looking for structures under water, off and LED by local Fishermen or local divers to a Normalize that they'd seen underwater. By the time that book was finished, I I thought, actually, i've done this story.

I've walked the walk. I I really don't have much more to say about IT. And I I turned in another direction. And I I wrote a book called supernatural meetings with the ancient teachers of mankind recently, retitled the visionary. And that was about the role of, fundamentally, about the role of psychotics in in the evolution of human, human culture. And I didn't think that I would go back to the loss civilization issue, but go back really happy in turkey, kept on forcing itself upon me.

The more and more discoveries that the eleven thousand six hundred dead date from enclosure d, which is the two largest megalithic pillars, and I I reach a point where I, I realized I have to get back in. I have to get back in the water, and I have to investigate this again and go. Actually happy was a game changer, but I think it's a game changer for everything because quebec ly tappy the um extraordinary nature of IT.

We're looking at a major magnificent site which is at least five and half thousand years older than say janti in multa, which is was previously considered to be the oldest magnetics site in the world. And this LED, of course, to a huge amount of interest and attention, both from the turkish government who see the potential tourism potential of of having the world's older meglio site, and from marchio gist. And this in turn has LED to exploration and excavation throughout the region and what they're finding throughout that whole region around go actually happy i'm going down into syria and further down into the Jordan valley as far as jericho, uh, and even across a bit of the meditation, ian, into cyprus, uh, is what turkish helgers are now calling the test temper civilization.

They calling IT the civilization, the stone hills civilization, with very definite identifying characteristic, semi sub terra ian circular structures, the use of tea shaped magnetic ic pillars, sometimes not anywhere near as big as those that go back to tempy. It's clear that god actually tappy now was not the beginning of this process IT was actually in the way the end of this process IT was the summation of everything that that stone hills civilization had had achieved. But what what is becoming clear is that this is a period between before the foundation of quebecor tappy.

As far as we know, that date of seven thousand and six hundred years ago is the oldest state for quebecor tappy. But course, there's a lot of quebecor tappy still underground. So we we can't say for sure that that's the oldest, but is the oldest so far excavated.

What what we're seeing a is that in that whole region around there, there was something was in motion, and IT began to go into motion round about the beginning of the Younger driers. And this is where these two dates are really important. The Younger drive us around.

The figures off begins around twelve thousand eight hundred years ago, and IT ends around eleven thousand and six hundred years ago. So go beck ly tappy construction data, that is. Eleven thousand and six hundred years ago, if they don't find older materials, Marks the end of the younker driers.

But the beginning of the Younger drives, we are already seeing the stirling of the kind of culture that manifests in full form at quebec I tappy, um and and after the construction of quebec, I tappy, in fact, even during the construction of quebec, I tappy, we see agriculture beginning to be adopted。 The the people who created go back tepper were all hunter foragers at the beginning. But by the time quebec ly tappy was finished, and IT was definitely deliberately finished, closed off, closed down, deliberately buried, covered with earth, covered with rubble, and then topped off with a hill, which is, which is why go back to peppy is called a what IT is. Go back toppy means pot belly tae, or the hill of the naval for a long time. Go, actually, happy was thought to be just hill that looked a bit like a pot belly.

Can you say how IT was discovered? I think, I think this one of the most fascinating on earth period. So maybe can you say what IT is? yes. And how was discovered?

Well, go go back to tappy is, first of all, the oldest fully elaborated megalithic site that we know of anywhere in the world. IT doesn't mean the older ones won't be found, but IT is the oldest so far found. The part of the site has been excavated, which is a tiny percentage of the whole site.

We do know. My first visit to connected tepi was in twenty thirteen, and doctor clash met. The late doctor clash met who was who, who died a year later, was very generous to me and showed me around the site for over a period of three days.

And he he explained to me that they've already used ground penetrating radar, are on the site and they know that there's much more quebec tappy still underground. So anything is anything is possible in terms of the in terms of the dating of quebec tappy. But what we have at the moment is a series of almost circular, but not quite circular enclosures, which are which are walled with relatively small stones.

And then inside them you have pairs of megalithic pillars and the the archetypal part of that side is enclosure d, which contains the two largest upright megales, about eighteen feet tall, and reckon to way somewhere in the range of twenty tones. Uh, if I have my my memory correct there, the substantial hefty stone IT IT isn't some kind of extraordinary feat to create a twenty foot twell or twenty ten mega, nor is IT an extraordinary feet to move IT. There's nothing there, nothing magical or or really weird about that.

Human beings can do that and always have. Besides, the quality for the medallist is right there. It's within two hundred meters of the of the main enclosures. So that's not a mystery. But the mystery is, the mystery is why suddenly this this new form of architecture is massive, massive magnetics pillars appear.

And the pillars, what one of the things that interest me about the pillars is, is there alignment? And there is good work that's been done, which suggests that enclosure d alliance to the rising of the star series on the rising points of the star series appear to be mapped by the other enclosures, which are oriented in slightly different directions. IT was the work entirely of hunter for ages, but by the time gobelet happy was completed, a agriculture was being introduced and was taking place there.

Now you asked how rebeca tepi was found. The answer to that is that there was a survey of that pot belly tae in the one thousand hundred and sixty by some american archeologists and they were looking absolutely looking for storage material, for material from the palette um and they had found some paley's ic flints of a palliac flints around there. So I looked like a good post to look, but then they noticed sticking out of the side of the hill, some very finally cut stone bits of very large and and very finally cut stone.

And looking at that, the workmanship was so good that those archives gist were confident that I had nothing to do with the stone age. And they thought they were at looking at perhaps some bison's remains, and they abandoned the site. And I never looked at IT further.

And IT wasn't until the german archaeology institute got involved in particularly h. Smith, to, I think, was a genius, had real insight into this and and started to dig IT, go back to happy that they realized what they'd found, they'd found potentially the oldest magnetic excite in the world. And they'd found IT at a place where agriculture, according to the established historical time mine, that's where agriculture of any rating in europe, western asia, begins. IT begins in anatolia, in turkey. Then IT gradually disseminates westward from there.

And yeah, the understanding is IT was created by hand gathers.

IT was IT created by hunter gathers. Yeah, there was no eleven thousand six hundred years ago in quebec, tappy. But by the time gobelet tappy was decommissioned, and I used that word deliberately, was closed down and and buried, uh, agriculture was all around IT h and this was agriculture of people who knew how to cultivate, cultivate.

Do we have an an understanding? When he was turned into a, if I could say, a time capsule so protected by forming amount around is IT around that similar time.

IT stood from roughly one thousand six hundred years ago to about ten thousand four hundred years ago, to about eight thousand four hundred B. C. So around twelve hundred years, IT was there, and IT continued to be elaborated as a site.

And while I was being elaborated as a site, we see agriculture. I'm gona use the word being introduced IT. Had there had been no sign of IT before, and suddenly it's there.

And to me, that's another of the mysteries about the bac tepper. And then with the new work that is being done, we realized that is part of a much wider phenomenon, which is expressed, ross, an enormous distance. And and the puzzling thing is that after a beki tappy, there almost seems to be a decline.

Things, things fall down again. And then we enter this long, slow process of the neolithic, thousands of years, a gradual developments, until we come to ancient summer, messiah tamia. But agriculture has taken a firm, a firm route by then.

Actually, one of the thing, i'll just say this in passing, when I talk about a lost civilization, introducing ideas to people are often accused of stealing credit from the indigenous people who had those ideas in the first place. So I do find a slightly hypocritical that archaeology is fully accepts that the idea of agriculture was introduced to western europe from turkey, and that that the western european's didn't invent agriculture. IT was absolutely introduced by Anita, an farmers who who who traveled worse. So the the notion of dissemination of ideas perhaps shouldn't be so um annoying to archologist as IT is.

And perhaps you should also stay, if you look at the entirety of history of harmonize humans, or harmonies have been explored. I I didn't even know this when I was preparing for this, looking at home or rectors. Ah, one point nine million years ago, almost right away, they spread out through the whole world, and we homosapien s of all from them.

And we should also mention sce. We're talking about the earth of controversial debates going on. As I understand, there's still debates about the dynamics of all that was going on there, like a mention in africa. That is the you know, I think the current understanding, we didn't come from one particular point of africa that there is a multiple locations.

This is the out of africa theory. I think it's more than a theory is is really, really strongly evidenced. why? Because we are part of the eight family and it's and it's a an african family.

Yeah, there's no doubt that that human beings are deep originals are in africa. But then there, as you rightly saying, there were these very early migrations out of africa by species that are likely ancestral to anatomically modern humans, including definitely hoodia tis astonishing distant travels that they undertook. Yes, I think I think there is an age to explore in, in, in all of humanity.

I think there is an urge to find out what's around the next corner, what's over the brow of the of the next hill. And I think that goes very deep into human character. And I think IT was being manifested in those those early adventures of people who left africa and traveled all around the world and then settling in different parts of the world. Uh, I I think a lot of a lot of anatomically modern human evolution took place outside africa as well.

not not only in africa. So I guess the the general puzzled the filled is, given these creatures explore and spread and, uh, try out different environments, why did IT take hundreds of thousands of years for them to develop complicated society settings?

That's the first big question. Why did they take so long? And that raises in my mind, a hypothesis of possibility. Maybe I didn't take so long. Maybe, maybe things we're happening that we haven't yet got hold of in the archaeological record, which which a wait to be discovered um and of course there are a huge parts of the world that have not been studied at all by archaeology but the fact that the fact that huge parts of the world have not been studied to told by archaeology is not in on its own enough to suggest that we are missing a chapter in the human story the reason that I come to that isn't only puzzle ents about that three hundred thousand year gap.

It's also to do with the fact that there's common biography as common missed and traditions and there's common spiritual ideas that are found all around the world um and and they have found amongst cultures that are geographically distant from one another and that they are also distant from one another in time. They don't necessarily occur at the same time. And this is where I think that archology is perhaps desperately needing a history of ideas as well as just a history of things, because an idea um can can manifest again and again throughout the human story so that so there are particular there are particular issues.

For example, the notion of the afterlife, destiny of the soul, what happens to us when we die? And believe me, when you reach my age, that something you do, you do, think about what, what, what happens. I used to feel a mortal when I was in my forties, but now i'm seventy four.

I definitely know that that i'm not, well, IT would be natural for human beings all around the world to have that same, the same feeling, that same idea. But why would they all decide that what happens to the soul after death is that that makes a leap to the heavens, to the milky way, that IT makes a journey along the milky way. That there IT is confronted by chAllenges, by monsters, by closed gates.

The course of the life that that person has lived will determine their destiny in that afterlife journey. And this idea, the path of souls, the milky way, is called the path of souls, very strongly found in the america's right from south amErica through mexico, throw into north america, but is also found h in ancient egypt, uh, in ancient india, in ancient mesopotamia. The the same idea.

And I don't feel that that can be a coincident. And I feel that what we're looking at is an inheritance of an idea. A legacy has been passed down from a remote common source, two cultures all around the world, and and then has taken on a life of its own within cultures. So the remote common source would explain both the similarities and the differences in the expression of these ideas. The other thing, very puzzling thing is the sequence of numbers that are a result of the procession of the economic is at least I think that's the best theory to explain them.

Um here I think it's important to pay tribute to the work of georgia to santa ana and head of undesired ed George's gio tsan tilities a was professor of history of science actually at IT where you're based back in the sixties and heart of under tion was professor the history of science at Frankford university and they wrote a an immense book in the thousand nine hundred and sixties called hamlett a and and hamlet's mill uh differs very strongly from establish opinion on the issue of the phenomenon of procession and i'll explain what procession is in a moment. Generally its held that IT was the greeks who discovered the precession. Uh and the day thing on that is put back not very far, maybe two thousand, three hundred years ago or so, santa and vendors are pointing out that knowledge of procession is much, much older than that, thousands of years older than that.

And they do actually trace IT. I think i'm putting them pretty much correctly to some almost unbelievable ancestor civilization. Reading that book was one of the several reasons that I got into this this mystery in the first place. okay.

Now the procession of the echo x is to give IT its full name results from the fact that our planet is the viewing platform from which we observe the stars, and our planet, of course, rotating on its own axis at roughly a thousand miles an hour at the equator. But what's less obvious is that it's also warbling on its access. And but so if you imagine the extended north pole of the earth pointing up at the sky in our time, it's pointing at the star, polaris, and that is our pole star.

But polaris has not always been the pole star. Precisely because of this website on the access of the earth, other stars have occupied the poll position. And sometimes the extended north pole of the earth points of empty space, there is no post are that's one of the obvious results of the mobile on the earth sexes.

The other one is that there are twelve well known conStellations in our time, the twelve conStellations of zodiac that lie along what is referred to as the the path of the sun. The earth is writing the sun, and we are seeing what's behind IT, what's in direct line with the sun in our, in our view. And there's a dialled conStellations all lie along the path of the sun.

So at different times of the year, the sun will rise against the background of a particular article conStellation. Today we live in the age of Prices, and it's definitely not an accident that the early Christians used the fish as they are symbol. This is another area where I differ from our chaotic.

I think I think the conStellations of the oda q recognized as such much earlier than we suppose. Any way to get to the point. The key marker of the year, certainly in the northern hemisphere, was the spring equals x. Uh, this was the question was what conStellation is rising behind the sun is what conStellation is housing the sun at dawn on the spring? Echo x right now its Prices in another hundred and fifty years or so it'll be aquarius.

We do live in the dawning of the age of aquarius um back in the time of the late ancient gyp tian IT was areas going back to the time of ramsey or before before that IT was tourist and so on. And so far this backwards through the odie C A until twelve thousand and five hundred years ago, you come to the age of leo. When the conStellation of leo houses the sun on the spring equals x now this process unfolds very, very, very, very slowly.

IT under the whole cycle. And IT is a cycle. IT repeats s itself roughly every twenty six thousand years.

Put a put a more exact figure on IT twenty five thousand nine hundred and twenty years that may be a convention. Some scholars would say that was a bit less than not a bit more. Be a talking fractions. It's it's in that area twenty five thousand nine hundred and twenty years um and and to observe IT you really need more than one human lifetime because IT unfolds very, very slowly at the rate of one degree every seventy two years.

The parallel that I often give is hold your finger up to the horizon, the distant horizon, the movement in one lifetime, in the period of seventy two years, is about the winds of your finger uh, it's not impossible to notice in a lifetime, but it's but it's difficult you're got to pass IT on um and and what seems to have happened is that some ancient culture, the culture that santayana foundation called, some almost unbelievable ancestor culture, woke out the entire process of procession and selected the key numbers of precision, of which of which the most important number, the governing number is the number seventy two. But but we also have uh numbers related to the number seventy two seventy two plus thirty six is one hundred and eight hundred eight divided by two is fifty four these these numbers are also found in mythology all around the world there were seventy two conspirator ors who um were involved in killing the god of sirs in an H D. Gypt and nAiling him up in a wooden coffer and dumping him in the in the nile um there are four hundred and thirty two thousand in the rig vasa four hundred and thirty two thousand is a multiple of seventy two and and at anchor in cambodia, for example, you have, uh, the bridge to anchor tom.

And on that bridge you have figures on both sides of sculpted figures, which are holding the body of a serpent. Ah, that serpent is va. zoo.

Ki, and what they're doing is they're turning the milky ocean, the same metaphor of training and turning that's defined in the story of hamlets mill, of a lodge's mill. There are fifty four on each side. Fifty four plus fifty four is one hundred eight. One hundred eight to seventy two plus seventy six. It's a processional number according to the work that santanna vendean did. And the fascination with this this number system and its discovery all around the world is one of the puzzles that that intrigue me and suggest me that we are looking at ancestral knowledge that was passed down and probably was passed down from a specific single common source at one time, but then was spread out very, very widely around the world.

So one of the defining ways that you approach the study of human history that I think contrast with mainstream mark ologies. Do you take this sort of astronomical symbolism and the relationship between humans and stars very seriously?

I do, as I believe the ancient did.

I think it's important to sort of consider what humans would have thought about back then. Now we have a lot of distractions. We have social media, can watch videos, youtube, whatever. Back then, especially before the electricity, the stars is like the sexist thing to talk about.

There's no light pollution.

There's no light pollution. So there's emergency .

of the heaven .

every single night you're spending waking up at the stars. And you can imagine there's a lot of sort of status value to be the guy who's very good at studying the stars and sort of the scientists of the day. Yeah and i'm sure there's going to be these genius that emerge.

They're able to do two things. One, tell stories about the guys are whatever based on the stars, and then also will probably talk about use the stars practically for navigation, for example. And so like IT makes sense that the stars had a primal importance for the ideas of the times, for the status the, for religious explorations. IT was an .

every present reality. Yes, and I was bright and IT was brilliant and IT was full of lights. It's inconceivable that the engines would not have pay attention to IT. IT was IT was an overwhelming presence.

That's one of the reasons why i'm really confident that the the conStellations that we now recognized as the conStellations of this odie c were recognized much earlier because it's hard to miss, when you pay attention to the sky, that the sun over the course of the solar year is month month rising against the background of different conStellations. And then there's a much longer process, the process of procession, which takes that journey backwards and where we have a period of two thousand, one hundred and sixty years for each side of the audio. I think that would have been hard for the agents to have missed that they might not identify the conStellations in exactly the same way we do today. That may well be a baby onion or greek convention, but that the conStellations were there, I think, was very clear, and that there were special conStellations, unlike other ones higher up in the sky, which we're not on the path of the sun, that people paid attention to.

well, but detecting the protection of the equal access hard because especially they don't have any writing systems, they don't have any mathematical system. So everything is told through words.

Yeah, they that's not underestimate oral traditions. Uh, the oral traditions is something we've lost in our culture today. One of the things that happens with the written word, uh, is that you gradually lose your memory.

Um actually there's a nice story from formation egypt about the god, the god of wisdom who is very proud of himself because he has invented writing. Look at this gift, he says, to a mythical farer of that time. Look at the gift that I am giving humanity writing.

This is a wonderful thing. It'll enable you to preserve so much that you would otherwise lose. And the hero in the story replies to him, no, you have not given us a wonderful gift.

You have destroyed the art of memory. We will forget everything. Words will rome free around the world. Not accompanied by any wise advice to set them into context. And actually that's a very interesting point.

And and we do know that cultures that still do have oral traditions are able to preserve information for very long periods of time. One thing I think is clear in in any time, in any period of histories, human beings love stories. We love great stories. One way to preserve information is to encode IT embedded in a great story. And and so carefully done that that actually IT doesn't matter whether the storyteller ws that they're passing on that information or not the story itself is the vehicle and as long as it's repeated faithfully, the information contained within IT will be will be passed on. And I do think this is this is part of the the story of the preservation of knowledge.

So that's one of the reasons that you myth seriously.

take them very seriously. And the other many reasons. But but I can't help being deeply impressed and deeply puzzled by the worldwide tradition of a global catholic.

M within human memory. I mean, we know that we know scientifically that there have been many, many categories in the past going back millions of years. I mean, the best known one, of course, is the K.

P. G. Event is is now made the dinosaurs extinct sixty five million or or or sixty six million years ago.

But has there been such a category ism in the lifetime of the human species? Yeah, the mountain ber eruption about seventy thousand years ago was pretty bad. But a global category. M the Younger dry us really takes all the boxes as as as a worldwide disaster, which definitely involved sea level rise both at the beginning and at the end of the Younger driers. IT definitely involved the swallowing up of lands that previously had been above water.

And I think it's a an excEllent candidate a for this worldwide tradition of a global catholicism, of which one of, but not the only distinguish characteristics was a flood, an enormous flood, and the submergence of lands that had previously been above water underwater. The fact that the story is found all around the world, suggested me the the archeological explanation is， look, people suffer local floods all the time. I mean, as we're talking this, that's flooding in florida.

But I don't think anybody in florida is going to make the mistake of believing that is a global flood. They know if they know it's local, but that's the argument largely of archaeology dealing with the flood myths, that some local population experienced a nasty local flooding event, and they decided to say that IT was that affected the whole world. I am not persuade ed by that, particularly since we know there was a nasty epoch, the Younger drives when flooding did occur and when the earth was subjected to events. Cathcart mic, enough to extinguish entirely the metaphor a of the ice.

So there is the Younger drive impact hypotheses that provides an explanation of what happened during this period you that result in a such rapid environmental change. So can you explain .

this hypotheses? Um the the anger drives impact hypothesis. Y deh for short um is is not a lunatic fringe theory as its opponents often attempt to write IT off um it's the work of more than sixty major scientists working across many different disciplines, including archaeology and and including oceanography as well and and they are collectively puzzled by the sudden onset of the Younger driers and by the fact that is IT is a company twelve thousand eight hundred years ago by a distinct layer in the earth.

A you can see IT most clearly at murray springs in arizona, for example. You can you can see it's about the width of a human hand. And there's a draw there that's been cut by flash flooding at some time.

And that draw has revealed the sides of the draw. And you you can see the cross section. And in the cross section is this distinct dark layer that runs through the earth.

And IT contains evidence of wild five fires as a lot of suit. In IT, there are also nano diamonds. In IT, there is shocked courts.

In IT, there is courts that being melted at temperatures in excessive two thousand, two hundred degrees and grade. There are carbon microsys eri's. All of these are proxies for some kind of cosmic impact.

I talked a moment ago about the extinction of the dinosaurs, luisa water averis, who who made that incredible discovery. Initially, the discovery was based entirely on impact proxies, just as the Younger drivers, there was no crater. And for a long time they were disbelieved because they couldn't produce a crater.

But when they finally did produce that deeply buried chick globe crater, that's when people started to say, yeah, they have to be right but they weren't relying on the creature. They were relying on the impact proxies. And they're the same impact proxies that we find in what's called the Younger driers boundary layer all around the world.

Um so so it's the fact that at the moment when the earth tips into a radical climate shift, it's been warming up for at least two thousand years before twelve thousand, eight hundred years ago. People at the time must have been feeling a great sense of relief. Now we've been living through this really cold time, but is getting Better.

Things are getting Better. And then suddenly around twelve thousand eight hundred years ago, some might say twelve thousand eight hundred and sixty years ago, there's a massive global plunge in global temperatures and and the world suddenly gets as cold as IT was at the peak of the ice age. And it's almost literally overnight. It's very, very, very rapid.

Normally, in an epoch when the earth is going into a freeze, you would not expect sea levels to rise, but there is a sea level rise, a someone right at the beginning of the Younger driers, and then you have this long frozen period from two thousand thousand eight hundred to eleven thousand six hundred years ago. And then equally dramatically, and equally suddenly, the anger drives, comes to an end, and the world very rapidly warm up. And you have A A recognized pulse of melt water at that time, as the last of the glacier collapse into the sea, called melt water pulse one b round, about eleven thousand, six hundred years ago.

So, so this is, this is a period which is very tightly defined. It's a period when we know that human populations were grievously disturbed. That's when the the so called clovis culture of north amErica vanished in tiny from the record h during the anger drives. And it's the time when the mamas and the saber tooth tigers vanish from the record as well.

Is there a good understanding of what happened geologically, whether there was an impact or not? Like what explains this huge deep and temperature and rise in temperature.

the abot section of the global marino overturning circulation, of which the gulf stream is the best non part uh, the main theory that's been put forward up to now, and I don't speak that theory at all, is that the sudden freeze was because I was caused by the cutting off of the girl's stream, basically a which is part of the central heating system of our planets. So no, no wonder IT became cold.

But what's not really been addressed before is why that happened, why the gold stream was cut. Why are some pulse of melt water went into the world ocean and and IT was so much of IT, and IT was so cold that actually stop the girl stream in its tracks? That's where the Younger driers impact hypothesis offers a very elegant and very satisfactory solution to the problem.

Now the hypothesis is, of course, is broader than that um amongst the scientists working on IT are, for example, bill napper and aster physicist and astronomer um they have assembled a great deal of evidence which suggests that the culprit in the Younger drives impact event or events was what we now call the tord media stream which the earth still passes through twice a year. It's now about thirty million kilometers wide, takes the earth couple of days to to pass through IT on its orbit, to pass through IT in june, and IT passes through IT at the end of october. The suggestion is that the tord media stream is the and product of a very large comment that entered the solar system round about twenty thousand years ago, came in from the earth cloud, got trapped by the gravity of the sun, and went into orbit around the sun and orbit that crossed the orbit of the earth.

However, when IT was one object, the likelihood of a collision with the earth was extremely small. But as IT started to do what all comments do, which was to break up into multiple fragments, because these are chunks of rock held together by ice. And as they warm up, they split and disintegrate and break into pieces.

As IT passed through that, its debris stream became larger and larger and wider and wider and the theory is that twelve thousand eight hundred years ago the earth passed through a particularly dense part of the tord media stream and was hit by multiple impacts uh all around the planet, certainly from the west of north america, as far as as syria. And that we are, by and large, not talking about impacts would have caused creators, although they are certainly were some. We're talking about air bursts, whether object is one hundred or one hundred and fifty meters in diameter.

And it's coming in very fast into the atmosphere. A IT is very unlikely to reach the earth. It's gonna low up in the sky. And the best known recent example of that is the tunguska event in siberia, which took place on the third th of june thousand.

Nine hundred and eight the time gusta event was nobody disputes IT was definitely an air best of of a cometary fragment and the date is interesting, uh, because the third th of june is the height eight of the beta torts is one of the two times when the earth is going through the torrent media. Am, well, luckily that part of siberia wasn't inhabited, but two thousand square miles of forest were destroyed. If that had happened over a major city, we would all be thinking very hard about objects out of the tord meter stream and about the risk of cosmic impact.

So the suggestion is that IT wasn't one impact. IT wasn't two impacts. IT wasn't three impacts.

IT was IT was hundreds of air bursts all around the planet, coupled with, coupled with a number of bigger objects, which the scientists working on this think hit the north american ice camp largely some of the males have hit the northern ur pean and ice cap resulting in that sudden otherwise unexplained flood melt water that went into the world ocean um and and caused the cooling that then then took place but this was a disaster for life all over the planet and and it's interesting that one of the sites where they find the Younger drives boundary and where they find overwhelming evidence of an air burst, and where they find all the shocked courts, the carbon microsoft ions, the nano diamonds, the train to tight and saw on and so forth, all of of of those impact proxies are founded. Eber hera, that was a settlement within one hundred and fifty miles of gobetti. Tappy and IT was hit twelve thousand eight hundred years ago, and IT was obliterated.

Interestingly, IT was reinhart ted by human beings within probably five years but IT was IT was completely obliterated at that time um and it's difficult to imagine that the people who lived in that area would not have been very impressed by what they saw happening by these massive explosions in the sky and the the bilateral. Uh of of abhorr. Now this is a theory.

The Younger drive hint is a hypotheses actually not even a theory of theory, I think considered to higher level than the hypothesis. That's why it's the Younger driers impact hypothesis. And of course, IT has many opponents, and there are many who disagree with IT.

And there there there have been a series of of peer reviewed papers that have been published supposedly debunking the Younger drives impact type sis. One I think was in two thousand and eleven. IT was called A A requa for the Younger dras impact hypotheses and this one just been published a few months ago a year ago you know called a complete refutation of the Younger driver impact high posses something something like that, some lengthy title.

Um so so it's it's a hypothesis that has its opponents and even within within those of us who are looking at the alternative side of history, there are different points of view uh Robert shock from boston universe, the geologist who demonstrated that the erosion on this things may well have been caused by exposure to a long period of very heavy rainfall. But he doesn't go for the Younger drives impact hypothesis. He he fully accepts that the Younger driver was a global category m and that the extinctions took place, but he thinks IT was caused by some kind of massive solar output. So there, what everybodys agreed on is the Younger dress was bad um but there is dispute about what caused that I personally have found the Younger drives impact hypothesis to be the most persuade ive which most effectively explains all .

the evidence how import is the impact of pathetic your understanding of the ice age advance civilizations so is possible to have another explanation for environmental factories that could have erased most of an advanced ization during this period.

In a sense, it's not the impact hypothesis that is central to what i'm saying. It's the Younger drives the central to what i'm saying and the Younger drives required a trigger, something something caused IT. Um I think the Younger drives impact types.

The notion that, that we're looking at a debris stream of a frame ting comment and we can still see that debris stream because it's still up there and we still pass through IT twice a year um is is the best explanation, but I don't mind other explanations. It's good that there are other explanations. The Younger dress is a big mystery, is not a myn solved.

And that word, advanced civilization. This is another word that that is easily misunderstood. And i've tried to make clear many, many times that we we consider the possibility of something like a civilization in the past.

We shouldn't imagine that it's us, that it's something like us. We should expect IT to be completely different from us, but that I would have achieved certain thing. So among st.

The clues that intrigue me are those professional numbers that are found all around the world, and our a category of ancient maps called porter anos, which suddenly started to appear just after the crusade, that a entered constant in open and sacked constant in open, the portugal is suddenly start to appear. And they are extremely accurate maps. The most of the ones that have survived are extremely accurate maps of the meditation in the loan.

But some of them show much wider areas. For example, on these porter ano star maps, you do find a depiction of antartica again in a again. Another thing that these maps have in common is that many of the map makers state that they based their maps on multiple older source maps, which have not survived.

These maps are intriguing because they have very accurate relative longitudes. Our civilization did not crack the longer ude problem until the midnight th century with Harrison's chronic ter, which was able to keep back at the time at sea. So you could have, uh, the time in london, and you could have the local time at sea at the same time on, and then you could work out your longitude.

There might be other ways of working out longitude as well, but there IT is the fact is these porter anas have extremely accurate relative longitudes. Secondly, some of them show the world to my eye as he looked during the ice age. They show a much, a much extended indonesia and malayan peninsula.

And the series of islands that make up indonesia today are all group together into one land mass. And that was the case during the ice. That was the, that was the soon to shelf and the presence of antarctica on some of these maps also puzzles and intrigues me and is not satisfaction, explained, in my view, by archology, which says, oh, those map makers, they felt that the world needed something underneath IT to baLance IT.

So they put fictional land mass there. I don't think that makes sense. I think somebody was mapping the world during the last ice sage, but that doesn't mean that they had our kind of tech IT means that they were following that exploration instinct that they knew how to navigate.

They'd been watching the stars for thousands of years before they knew how to navigate, and they knew how to build sea going ships. And they explored the world, and they map the world. Those maps, very, very, we made a very, very long time ago.

Some of them, I believe, were likely preserved in the library of alexandria. I think even then they were being copied and recopied. We don't know exactly what happened to the library of alex andera, except that I was destroyed.

I suggest it's likely this was during the period of the roman empire. I suggested it's likely that some of those maps were taken out of the library and taken to constant to no pool. And that's where they were liberated during the crusade and entered world culture again and started to be copied and recopied.

So from this perspective, when a we talk about advanced essay socialization, IT could have been a route. Small group of people with the technology of there are scholars of the stars and their expert see faring navigators. Yes, that's about as .

far as I would take IT. And when I say that IT, as I have said on a number of occasions, that I had technology equivalent to our in the eighteenth century, i'm referring specifically to the ability to calculate longitude. Ah i'm not saying that they were building steam engines. I don't see I don't see .

any evidence for that and perhaps some building tricks and skills of .

how to well, definitely. And this is again, is where you come to a series of mysteries which have perhaps best expressed on the giza plateau in in, in egypt, with the three great pyramids and the extraordinary magali thc temples that many people don't pay much attention to on the gaza plata. And the great thinks itself, this is an area of particular importance in understanding this issue.

What can you actually describe these things in the great parent is in what you find mysteries and interesting about them.

Well, first of all, the astronomy. Uh, and here I must pay tribute to two individuals, actually three individuals in particular. One of them is john Anthony west passed away in twenty eighteen.

He was the first person in our era to begin to wonder if the thinks was much older than IT had been. Actually he got that idea from a from a philosophical hood, du bics, who noticed to what he thought was water erosion on the body of the things. John west picked that up, and he was a great amateur gypt logic himself.

He spent most of his life in egypt. He he was hugely verstand egypt. And when he looked at this fings and at the strange scalloped erosion patterns on the vertical fishes, particularly in the trench around this things, um he began to think, maybe sure I was right, maybe there there was some sound of some kind of flooding here.

And that's when he brought Robert shock, second person I i'd liked to recognize georgia at boston university. He brought shock to gaza. And shock was the first judges to stick his neck out, risk the area, the ire of egypt gist, and say, what IT looks to me like the thinks was exposed to at least one thousand years of heavy rain.

For and as shocks calculations have continued, as he's continued to be immersed in this mystery, he's continuously pushed that back. And he's now, again, looking at the date of around twelve thousand and twelve half thousand years ago during the Younger drives for the creation of the great things. And then, of course, this is the period of the of the with sahara, the humid sahara.

The sahara was a completely different place during the ice age. They were rivers in IT. They were lakes in IT.

IT was fertile. IT was possibly densely, densely populated, and there was a lot of rain. There's not no rain in giza today, but there's relatively little rain.

The next person, not enough rain to cause that erosion damage on this things. The next person who needs to be mentioned in this context is Robert bova a Robert and I have call to a number of books together. Unfortunately, Robert has been very ill for the last seven years.

His ah got a very bad chest infection. And I I think also that Robert became very demoralized by the attacks of egyplosis on his work. But Robert is the genius.

And IT does take a genius sometime to make these connections, because nobody noticed IT before that. The three pyramid ds of ga are laid out on the ground in the pattern of the three stars of a ryans belt. And schedules will say, well, you can find any buildings and line them up with any stars you want.

But ryan actually isn't any old conStellation, iran, and wash the god of sirs in the sky. H, he was the ancient egypt called the iran conStellation sao. And they recognize that as the celestial image of the goto sia.

So what's being copied on the ground is the belt of a day ity of a celestial deity is not just a random conStellation. And then when we take procession into account, you find something else very intriguing happening. First of all, you find that the exact orientation of the pyramid, ds as IT is today and and pretty much as IT was when they're supposed to have been built four thousand, five hundred years ago.

A it's not precisely related to how arise. But looked at that time, there's there's a bit of A A twist is they are they are not quite right. But as you presets the stars backwards, as you go back and back and back and you come to around ten thousand five hundred B C, twelve and half thousand years ago in the Younger driver, you find that suddenly they looked perfectly.

They match perfectly with the three permits on the ground. And that's the same moment. But the great thinks an equator monument aligned perfectly to the rising sun on the spring equals anybody can test, throw themselves, go to the on first, be there before dawn, stand behind these things. And you will see the sun rising directly in line with the gaze of this fings. But the question is.

What conStellation was behind these things and twelve and a half thousand years ago, IT was the conStellation of leo and actually the conStellation of leo has a very things like look and I am my colleagues are pretty sure that the thinks was originally a lion entirely um and that IT over the thousands years IT became damaged, IT became eroded, particularly the part of IT that that sticks out the head. There were peers when the fink was completely covered in sound, but still the head stuck out by the time you come to to the fourth dynasty, when the great pyramid supposedly built, by the time you come to the fourth dynasty, the head of the the lion original lion head would have been a complete mess. And we suggest that IT was then recalled into a theron's head.

Egyptologists think IT was the feral free, but there is no real strong resembLance, but it's definitely wearing the nemeth headdress of of an ancient egyptian fero. And we think that that's the result of a rearing of what was originally not only a lion and bodied, but also a lion and headed monument. IT won't make sense if you create an equinoctial marker in the time of K E, four thousand five hundred years ago.

And the thing is, an economical marker is two hundred and seven feet long. And seven feet time is looking directly at the rising on the equal x, if you create IT, then, uh, you would be Better, you would be more likely to created in the shape of a bull. Because that was the age of tourists when the conStellation of tourist house, the sun on the spring, echo.

X so why is that a lion? Uh and and again, we think that's because of that observation of the skies and and and putting on the ground as above, so below putting on the ground an image of the sky at a particular time. Now the fact that the giza plateau is a fact, of course, the egypt gist completely dispute, but the fact that the principal monuments of the eza platow, the three great pyramids and the great things all lock astronomically on the data, around ten thousand five hundred bc, to me, is most unlikely to be an accident.

And actually, if you look at computer software at the sky that time, you'll see, you'll see that the milky way is very prominent and and seems to be mirrored on the ground by the river. Now I suggest that maybe one of the reasons among gs many why geza was chosen as the site for this, for this very special place. So the point I want to make is that that an astronomical design on the ground, which memorializes a very ancient date, does not have to have been done twelve thousand, five hundred years ago.

If, if, if, from the ancient gypt point of view you're there four thousand five hundred years ago um and there's a time eight thousand years before that which is very, very, very important to you you you could use astronomical language and megalithic architecture to memorialize that date on the gaza plato, which is what we think we're looking out except for one thing. And that's the erosion patterns on this things. And we're pretty sure that the fink at least does date back to twelve and a half thousand years ago uh and with IT, the megalithic temples, the so called valley temple, which stands just just to the east and just to the south of the sink, and the swing's temple, which stands directly in front of the things the sink temple is largely destroyed, but the value temple attributed to cover on no good grounds.

What soever um is a huge megalith c construction with blocks of limestone that way up to one hundred tons each um and yet IT has been remodeled. The faced with granite there are granted blocks that are placed on top of the the core limestone blocks and those core limestone blocks were already eroded when the granic granic blocks were put there. why? Because the granite blocks have actually been purposefully and deliberately cut to fit into the erosion Marks on the, we believe, much older megalithic box there.

So I think VISA is a very complicated site. I would never seek to divorce the dynastic ancient egyptians from the great pyramids. They were closely involved in the construction of the great pyramids. We see them today. But what I do suggest is that there were very low platforms on the geezer platos that are much older.

And that the when we look at the three great pyramid ds, we're looking at a renovation and a restoration and the enhancement of much older structures that had existed on the giza plato u. For a much longer period before that actually the great pym's is built around a natural hill. Uh, and that natural hill might have been seen as the original prime evil mind to to the ancient gyp tian.

So the ideas that this thing is there, long before the pyrates and the pyramids were built by the egyptian to celebrate further, are an already holy place.

A and there were platforms in place, whether pyramid ds stand, not the pyramid ds as we see them today, but the the the basis the base of those pyramids uh, was already in play. So what's the case?

What's the evidence that the egyptologist used to make the attribution that they do for the dating of the pyramids .

in these things? Well um the three great pyramid ds of gaza are different from later parameters. This is another problem that I have with the whole thing um is the the the story of pyramid building.

When did IT? When did IT really begin? And the timeline that we get from egyptology is the the first pyramid is the pym ID of the fero rosa.

The step prayed at sara about one hundred years or so before the geese, a paramus are built. And then we have this explosion in the fourth dynasty of of true pyramids. We have three of them attributed the single faeroes netho who built, supposedly the parameter at my doom.

And the two pyramids are sure, the bent on the red pyramid. And then within that same hundred years span, we have the geese appearance being built. This is according to the orthodox trannel gy.

And then suddenly, once the geese, a project has finished, permit building goes into a massive slump in ancient egypt. And the pyramid ds of the fifth dynasty are, Frankly speaking, a mess. Outside, they're very inferred constructions. You can hardly recognize the experience at all.

But what happens when you go inside them, as you find that they're extensively covered in herrod lifts and imagery, repeating the name of the king who was supposedly buried in that place, where as the geese APP ya mads have no internal inscriptions whatsoever, what they do, what we do have, is one piece of gravity about which there is some controversy. Basic statistics is a six million ton structure. It's each side is about seven hundred and fifty feet long.

It's aligned almost perfectly to true north, southeast and west within three sixteenths of a single degrees the sixtieth because degrees are divided into sixties um and and um is the precision of the orientation and the absolute massive size of the thing, plus it's very complicated internal passage ways that are involved in IT. You you know in the ninth century the great pyramid still had its facing tom stone in place, but there were, there was an a, an arab ala, a moon who had already realized that other pyramids did have their entrance in the northeast. Nobody knew where the entrance to the great pyramid was, but he figured, IT, there's an entrance to this thing is going to in the northeast somewhere so he put together a team of workers and they went in with sledge hammers and they started smashing where he thought would be the entrance.

And they cut their way into the great pyramid, uh, for a distance of maybe a hundred feet. And then the hammering that they did dislodge, something, they heard a little bit further away, something big, falling, and they realized there was a cavity there. And they started heading in that direction.

And then they joined the internal passageway of the, the of of the great pyramid, the descending on the ascent ding corridors that go up when you go up the ascending corridor, every one of the internal passage ways in the, in the great pyramid that people can walk in slopes at an angle of twenty six degrees. That's interesting, because the angle of slope of the exterior of the great parameters, fifty two degrees. So we know mathematicians were at work as well as geometers in the in the creation of the great pyramid.

If you go up the grand gallery, which is at the end of the a single ascending corridor and it's above the so called queen's chAmber, you go up the gram gallery, you are eventually going to come to what is known as the kings chAmber, in which there is a configures. And that psychotic gus is a little bit too big to have been got in through the narrow entrance passage way, almost as though the so called king's chAmber was built around the psychologist. Already in place above the king's chAmber are five other chAmbers.

These are known as relieving chAmbers. The theory was that they were built to relieve the pressure on the king's chAmber of the weight of the monument. But I think what makes that theory dubious is the fact that even lower down, where more weight was involved, you have the chAmber, and there are no such relieving chAmbers above that in the top of these five chAmbers of british adventures.

And vandel called how advice, who who dynamite this way into those chAmbers in the first place, allegedly found, well, he claims he found the raffle piece of graffiti ft. By a work gang, naming the fair a cool. And it's true, i've been in that chAmber, and there is the cattle shaku. There are quite recognizable but the dispute around IT is whether that is a genuine piece of graft iti dating from the old kingdom h or whether how advice actually put IT there himself because he was in desperate need of money at the time.

Um i'm not sure what the answer to that question is another reason why but it's one of the reasons that that uh egyptologists feel confident in saying that the parameter is the work of cool um another is what is called the video jp param where on the red sea A A diary, the diary of an individual camera was found and he talks about bringing a highly polished limestone to the great pyramid. And it's clear that what he's talking about is the facing stones of the great pyramid is not talking about the body of the great pyramid. He's talking about the facing stone of the great during the rain of cool.

So that's another reason why the great pyramid is attributed to cool. Um but I think I think that we couple was undoubted involved in the great pyramid and in a big way, but I think he was building upon an elaborating much older structure and I think the heart of that structure is the subterranean chAmber, which is a one hundred feet vertically beneath the base of the great pyramid. Anybody who suffers from clustering bia will not enjoy being down the harm.

You got to go down a twenty six degree sloping corridor. Until a distance of about three hundred feet, it's one hundred feet vertically. But the slope means you going to walk a distance, not work.

You're going to take walk. You're going almost gonna to crawl. I've learned from long experience that the best way to go down these corridors is is actually backwards. If you go forward to keep bumping ahead on them, because they're only three feet, five bunches high, uh, you get down to the bottom, you have a short horizontal passage, and then you get into the subterranean chAmber.

The theory of egyptology is that this was supposed to be the burial place of cool, but after cutting out that three hundred foot long, twenty six degree sloping passage, a lot of which passes through bedrock, and having cut the sub training chAmber out of bedrock, gone to all that trouble, they decided they wouldn't worry in there. And they built what's now known as the queen's chAmber, as his burial chAmber. But then they decided that wouldn't do either.

So they then built the king's chAmber. And that's where the farrow is supposed to have been buried. Those arab readers, under clive, my moon, didn't find anything in the great parameter.

All so your ideas that these. Thinks and maybe some aspects of the permit were material. And why that's important is in that case would be evidence of some transfer technology. Yes, from a much older civilization, the ideas that during the Younger dius, most of that civilization was either destroyed or damaged, and they desperately scattered across the the globe, seeking review, seeking refuge and telling stories of, maybe one, the importance of the stars. They are knowledge about the stars, and they're knowledge about building and knowledge about navigation.

That's that's roughly the idea. So it's interesting that the ancient egyptians have an a notion of an epoch that they call zapp happy, which is the first time that means the first time this is when the god's walked the earth. This is when, uh, seven stages brought wisdom to ancient gyt, uh, and that is seen as the origin of ancient egyptian civilization.

There are kinglets in by the ancient degree pans themselves. There are kings lists that go go back away beyond the first dynasty, go back thirty thousand years into the past eight digit, considered to be entirely mythical by egyptologist. But nevertheless is interesting that those that that reference to to remote time, now what you also have in egypt are what might almost be described as secret societies.

The followers of horrors are one of those specifically tasked with bringing forward the knowledge from the first time into later periods. The souls of pay a neck in are another one of these mysterious secret society groups who are possesses of knowledge that they transmit to the future. And and what i'm broadly suggesting is that those survivors of the Younger dress category, m, who settled in giza, may have been relatively small in number, is interesting that that they are referred to in the the add ful building taxes seven stages because that repeats s again and again.

It's also in massive tamia. It's seven stages, seven up. Callum, who come out of the waters of the potion golfing and teach people all the skills of agriculture and of architecture and of astronomy, found is found all around the world, that there was a road to be small number of people who took refugee geza, who benefit from the survival skills of the hunt for ages, who lived at giza at that time, and who also passed on their knowledge to those hunter forges.

But IT was not knowledges that was ready to be put into shape at that time. And that knowledge was then preserved and kept and handled within very secretive groups that passed IT down over thousands of years. And finally IT burst into full form, uh, in the fourth dyna sty in in anal dg, and you know, the notion that knowledge might be transferred over thousands of years shouldn't be absurd.

We know, for example, in the case of action, israel IT goes back to the time of Abraham, which is pretty much, I think, around two thousand, two thousand B, C. And a knowledge has been preserved from that time, right up to the present day. So if you can, if you can preserve knowledge for four thousand years.

you can probably preserve IT. For right now, of course, the air bars on us are quite large but if an advanced aliza existed, where do you think IT was? Where do you think we might find IT one day if IT existed and um how big do you think that might have been?

Well, this is where where i'm often accused of presenting a god of the gaps argument and I think there was a lot civilization because there's lots of the earth that architects sts have never looked at. Of course, i'm not thinking that um these are very special gaps that i'm interested in um and i'm interested in them because of all the curiosities and the puzzlement that i've expressed you before.

It's not just because there are gaps in the archaeological record, because those gaps involve places that were very interesting places to live during the ice and they specifically include the sahara desert, which was not a desert during the ice, and went through this warm, wet period when IT was very, very fertile. A certainly some archology has been done in the sahara, but it's fractional, it's tiny. And I think if we want to get into the origins, true origins of ancient egyptian civilization, of the pupils of ancient egypt, need to be looking in the uh for that um and and um uh the amazon rainforest is another example of this.

I think this is hard. About nine millions square kilometers. The amazon that's left under dense canopy rainforest is about five million square kilometers, may be closer to six um and then you have the continental shelves that were submerged by sea level rise at the end of the ice.

Now it's well established that sea level rose by four hundred feet, but IT didn't rise by four hundred feet overnight. A IT came in dribs and drug's. There were periods of very rapid, quite significancy level rise, and there were periods when the sea levels rising much more, much more slowly.

So that four hundred foot sea level rise is spread out over a period of about ten thousand years. But there are episodes within IT, like melt water pulse one b, like melt water pulls one A H. When the flooding was was really immense.

How busy do you think you might have been? And do you think IT was across the spread across the globe? So if there were expert navigators doing this spread across .

the global well, the reason that i'm talking about the gaps is I don't know where this civilization started or where IT was based. All all, i'm seeing a clues and mysteries and puzzles that intrigue me and which suggests me that something is missing from our past. And i'm not inclined to look for that missing something in, for example, northern europe, because northern europe was not a very nice place to live during the ice age.

I mean, nobody smart would would build a civilization in northern europe. Twelve thousand years ago, I was a hideous frozen wasteland, the places to look at, places that we are hospitable and welcoming to human beings during the ice that, of course, includes the coastlines that are now under water. Of course, IT includes the sahara desert, and of course, IT includes the amazon rainforest as well all of these places I think our candidates uh for quote quote my lost civilization um and because I think largely from those ancient maps that IT was a navigating seafaring civilization, I suspect that IT wasn't only in one place.

IT was probably in a number of places and then I can only speculate um maybe maybe there was there was a cultural value where IT was felt. IT was felt that I was not appropriate to interfere with the lives of hunt for origins at that time. Maybe IT was felt that that they should keep their distance from them, just as even today there is a feeling that we shouldn't be interfering too much with the uncontacted tribes in the amazon rainforest.

Although in interestingly, some of those, some of those tribes are in now using cellphones. That possibility may have been there in in the past. And only when we come to to a global category, m does IT become essential to have outreach and actually to take refuge among gs, those hunter forge of population. That is the hypothesis that i'm putting up forward. I'm not claiming that is a fact, but for me, IT helps to explain the evidence.

So that speaks to one of the chAllenges that our chaotic gist provide to. The idea is that there is a lot of evidence, yes, of humans in the ice, and they appear to be all hunter gathers. But like you said, only a small percent of areas where humans have lived have been um studied by archologist that's right.

very tiny percent and even a tiny percent of every archaeological site has have been studied by archaean gist too. Typically one to five percent of any archaeological site is excavated.

I mean, that's why go back to tap that fills my mind with imagination, especially seeing as the time capture you know it's almost certain that there is places on earth we have been discovered that once we do um even if it's after the ice age will change our view of human history do you think there is going to be a place like what will be your dream thing to discover like quebec tappy that says a definitive like protections to our understanding of ice age history some kind of archive.

some kind of whole of records. There's a both mystic associations with a whole of records of geza from people like the advice organization. There's also ancient addition traditions which suggest that something was concealed beneath the things.

This is not an idea that is alien to ancient egypt is quite present in ancient egypt. Um so far as far as I know, nobody has um ducked down beneath this thing. And of course, there's very good reasons for that.

You don't want to damage the the place too much, but I less call IT the hall of records. I'd love to find that but I think in a way, that's what gobel heppy is. Go back.

The tappy is a hall of records. You know, it's interesting that that just as i've i've tried to outline, I hope reasonably clearly that the three great pyramids of geezer match a rans built in ten thousand five hundred. B, C, just as a thinks, matches leo in ten thousand five hundred.

B, C, twelve thousand five hundred years ago or so. Pillar forty three, an enclosure. D at go back a contains what a number of researchers, myself included, regard as an astronomical diagram. Martin sweatman of edinburgh university is brought forward the best work in this field, but IT was initially started by gentleman called paul berley, who noticed that one of the figures on pillar forty three is a scope on, very much like we represent the conStellation of scope o today.

And that above IT is a vultures without stretched wings, which is in a posture very similar to the conStellation that we sagittarius and on that outstretched wing is A A circular object and the suggestion is that it's marking the time when the sun was at the center of the dark rift in the milky way um at the summer sauce ce twelve and half thousand years ago that's that's what is marking uh and and it's interesting that the same date can be deduced from pillar. Of course it's controversial. Martin sweats ideas but no means accepted by by archaeology but he's done very, very thread detail statistical work on this and i'm personally convinced.

So we have A A time capsule at go bec tappy, which is memorializing a date there is at least one thousand two hundred years before rebeck ty peppy was built, if that dating of eleven thousand six hundred years ago proved to be absolutely the older state as IT, as IT is at present, the date memorialized on the pile forty three is twelve thousand eight hundred years ago, the beginning of the Younger dance, the beginning of the impact event. And then geezer does the same thing. But in much larger scale IT IT IT IT draws are IT uses massive megale thc architecture, which is very difficult to destroy, and a profound knowledge of astronomy to encoded date.

In a language that any culture which is sufficiently literate and astronomy will be able to decode. We don't have to have a script that we can't read like we deal with the industry civilization or with the easter island script. We don't have to have a script.

The company interpreted, if you use astronomical language than any astronomical literate civilization, will be able to give you a date who a damn has a star map built into IT. And that star map is is part of a an exhibition that was put there at the founding of the of the hover dam. And what he does is IT freezes the sky above the hover dam at the moment of its completion. And osaka handsome, the artist who created that peace, said so specifically that this would be so that any future culture would be able to know the time of the dam's construction so you can use astronomy and architecture to memorialize, uh, a particular date.

Quick pause, bathing break sounds good. So to me, the story of we've been talking about IT is both exciting if the mainstream march logy narrative is correct, and the one you constructing is correct. Bolts super interesting, because the main marchal gy perspective means that there is something about the human mind from which the payments these ideas bring naturally.

You place humans anywhere you plays on on mars is going to come out that way. That's an interesting story of human psychology that then becomes even more interesting when you evolve out of africa with homosapien, how they think about the world, that super interest. And then if there's a national civilization advances civilization that explains why ah there's so many similar types of ideas that spread that means that there's so much undiscovered yeah still about the to serve the spring of these ideas of civilization that come. So to me me they're both fascinating. So I don't know why there is so much sort of infighting.

but I think is partly territorial. I think I think that I can't can't speak of all archives gist. But but some architects sts feel very, very territorial al about their profession. And they do not feel happy about outsiders entering their alm, especially if those outsiders have a large platform. And that i've found that the attacks on me by architects sts have increased step by step with the increase of my exposure.

And I wasn't very interesting to them when I just had one minor best seller in one thousand nine hundred two with a book called design on the seal um but when fingerprints of the goals was published in one thousand nine hundred and ninety five and became global best seller, then I started to attract their attention and appeared to have been regarded as a as a threat to them and and that is the case today that is why ancient apocalypse season one was defined as the most dangerous show on netflix. Why the society for american archeology wrote an open letters to netflix asking netflix to relate ify the series of science fiction. It's why they accuse the they accuse the series of antisemitism, a mythology, uh, White supreme ism and a whole, I don't know, a whole bunch of other other things like that.

Nothing to do with anything that that in the series IT was IT was IT was like, we must shut this down. This is so dangerous to us, as is certainly not a dangerous. There are many more dangerous things in the world than a television series.

Um we're going going on right now but but maybe IT was seen as a danger to archaeology that this non archaeologist was in archaeological terrain and being viewed and seen by large and red by large numbers of people. Maybe maybe that was part of the problem, and human nature being what IT is. I noticed that the two of my principal critics, john hoops from the university kansas and flint dio, who is now teaching at the university of cardiff in wales in in the U.

K. Um are both people who like to have media exposure um and john hooks have just recently started as a youtube channel. Flint dibley had one for for quite a while, very small number of followers. I think that they feel that they should be the ones who are getting the global attention, and that is not right that I am.

And that the best way to stop that is to stop me, to shut me down, to get me cancelled, and basically requiring netflix to the label, my series, from a documentary to a science fiction, which is what they actually had the temerity to suggest the netflix x that would, if that had gone through, if networks had listened to them, that would have effectively been the cancellation of my documentary, serious, that would no longer have been ranked under under documentary. So was a deliberate attempt to shut me down. And I see that going on again and again.

And it's so unfortunately, and so unnecessary. I've become very defensive towards archaic logy. I I hit back well, after thirty years of these attacks on my work.

I'm tired of IT and I do defend myself. And sometimes I perhaps over vigorous than that defense. Maybe I was a little bit too strong in my critique archaic logy in the first season of ancient depok los. Maybe I should have been been a bit gentle er and a bit kind down. I've tried to reflect that in the second season and to bring also many more indigenous voices into the second season as well as the voices of many more archeologists .

yeah in general, chance to get a glimpse of the archaistic community and in archeology in science in general, I don't have much patients for this kind of arrogance or sarch or dismissal of general human curiosity that I think you are work inspires in people. So that's why people like advanced art, who I recently had a conversation with, you know, he radiates sort of kindness and curiosity as well.

And it's like that kind of approach to ideas, especially about human history. IT inspires people, inspires millions of people to ask questions. I mean, that's why you had the counties on the on the new season. He's basically coming to the show from that same perspective.

curiosity and is genuinely curious about the past, very, very interested in IT and he's bringing to IT questions that everybody brings to the past, looking for every man, uh in in, in the series.

So given that, can you maybe still man the case that uh archologist make about this period that we would be talking about? Can you make the case that that is indeed what happens? This was honour gathered for a long time, and then there was a cathisma very difficulty in in human history with the Younger drives, and that change the environment, and then LED to the the springing up of civilization, a different place on earth. Can you serve.

make the case for that? I know I completely understand why that is the position of archive gy, because that's what they're found. Archology is very much wishing to define itself as a science, and IT uses the techniques of waiting and measuring and counting, a very key to what archology does and in what theyve found and what they've studied around the world.

They don't see any traces of of a lost civilization and the idea that um besides the the we live in a very politically correct world today and the idea that that some kind of lost civilization brought knowledge to other cultures around the world has seen as almost racist or colonialist in some in some way that triggers the triggers that aspect as as as well. But basically I think majority of architects sts are in complete good faith on this. I don't think that anybody y's really seeking to frame me.

I think that I think that what what we're hearing from most archives, just some much more vicious than others. But what we're hearing from most archives is this is what we found and we don't see evidence for a lost civilization in IT. Um and to that I I must reply, please look at the myth, please consider the implications of the Younger driers, please look at the ancient astronomy, please look at those ancient maps and don't just dismiss them and clear them.

And for god sake, please look more deeply at the parts of the world that we're immensely habitable and attractive during the ice age and that have hardly been studied by archie gia all before. You tell us that your theory is the only one that can possibly be correct, in fact, is a very, is a very arrogant and silly position of archaeology. Because ideological theories are always being overthrown.

IT can take years. IT can take decades. IT took decades. In the case, the case of the close, this first hypothesis for the settings of the americas. But sooner or later, a bad idea will be kicked out by a preponderance of evidence that that idea does not explain.

If we can just look back at your debate with diable on George gan experience, what does them take away from that? What have you learned? Maybe what are some things you like about about you said that he's one of your big critics, but would you like about his ideas and what what would you may be you first before.

just very recently? And IT can be found on my youtube and channel and IT signal on on my website. I I have made a video runs about an hour h, which looks at a series of statements that clinton made during the debate, which I was not prepared to answer, IT turns out that some of those statements are not correct。

A the the notion, for example, that there were three million shield that have been mapped. Flint actually uses the word mapped, three millions on ship breaks that have been mapped at one point in the debate. And I i've put that clip into the video that I brought out.

That is not a fact. That is an estimate, a unesco estimate. And actually, in the small print on one of the slides that he has on the screen, you can see the word estimate, but he never expresses that word out out loud.

So those who are listening to the podcast, rather than watching IT wouldn't even have a chance to see that. And I sitting there in the studio didn't see that were destined either. And I didn't know that.

I think, my god, if flynn has a point here, if they're been three million ships found and mapped, if that's the case, the absence of any shift break from a lost civilization of the ice age is a problem. But then I discovered that IT isn't three millions ship brakes that have been mapped. It's much, much less than that. And maybe it's two hundred and fifty thousand, still a large number, but most of them from the last thousand years.

And and unfortunately, what flint didn't go into, and perhaps he should have shared with the audience, and again, I go into this in the in the video, is that there is in dispute able evidence that human beings worthy heroes as much as fifty or sixty thousand years ago, the people in of australia involved, uh, relatively short, ninety kilometers, a hundred kilometre ocean voyage. But nevertheless, IT was an ocean voyage. And IT must have involved a large enough people, a large enough number of people, to create a permanent population that wouldn't go extinct.

The settings of cyprus s is the same thing. IT was always an island, even during the ice, and no ships have survived that speak to the settlement of australia, and no ships have survived that speak to the settings of cyprus either. But that doesn't mean that that thing .

didn't have as you just like linger on this, because for me he was the ship thing was convincing. And then looking back for watching your video, but also just realizing the people in australia part, that's my emotions fifty thousand years ago. Just imagine being the person standing on the shore, looking out into the ocean, standing on the shore of a harsh environment, looking up to the ocean, a harsh environment, and deciding that, you know what, i'm going to go to ours near certain death.

I don't know. On the other side of that water, you can't see ninety humans did IT yeah yeah again, is that urge to explore here? And I suggest that IT IT probably began with a few pioneers who made the journey there and back.

They ventured into the water. They definitely had boats, uh, and low and behold, after a two or three day voyage, they ended up on a coastline. You're an individual. You've got my relatively straightforward island, hoping with where each island is, with insight of each other as far to more. And when you get IT to more, suddenly you can't island talk anymore.

There is an expensive ocean that you can see across, but that urged to explore that curiosity that is central to the human condition would undoubted have had some adventures, individuals, to want to find out more and even be willing to risk their lives. And that that first recognizing of what lay beyond that straight would have douteless been undertaken by very few individuals, not enough to create a permanent population in australia. But when they came back with the good news, there's a whole land that's the land that was in the the geographers called saho, which in just as soon as I was the ice, indonesian and malaysian peninsula all joined together into one land mass.

So as a hole was niugini joined to australia so they would have made landfall in new gini and then they think, well, here's this vast open, incredible land um we need to bring more people here uh and and that would have involved larger, larger craft. Uh you you need to bring people uh with resources and you bring need to bring enough of them, both men and women, in order to produce a population that will not rapidly become extinct. Is the same in cyprus there? The detailed work that's been done suggest very strongly that we are looking at planned migrations of groups of people in excessive a thousand at a time, bringing animals with them. And this certainly would have involved multiple boats and boats of of a significant size.

And there is no archaic logical evidence of those boats.

none whatsoever they all disposed that ever been found in the world is the docker break of greece wishes. Around five thousand years old, if I recall correctly.

So everything that makes a boat is lost to time.

Yes, boats can be preserved under safety circumstances. There's a wreck at the bottom of the black sea, almost two miles deep. I didn't know the black, he was that deep, but there's a red and there's no oxygen done there.

Um that is that is more than two thousand years old and is still in pretty much perfect condition but in other conditions of the structure of the ship evaporates. Sometimes what you left with is the cargo of the ship. And you can say there was a ship that thank here, but the ship itself is, the ship itself has gone. The fact is, we know that our ancestors will see farers as much as fifty thousand years ago, and no ship has survived to testify that to that yet. We accept that they were.

Do you think you think one day will find a ship that's ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty thousand years old?

It's not impossible. I think it's I think it's quite unlikely given given the very thin survival of ships to further back you go in time, uh, with the oldest, as I say, being about six thousand years old now. And then the the other thing to take into account is the Younger driers event itself and the the catechism c circumstances of that event and the roiling of the seas that would have taken place. Then how much would have survived in in a, in a boat accident at that time would have survived for thousands of years afterwards? I am not sure, but I I don't give up hope as possible.

So okay, so that's back to the three million ship breaks. So what's you take away from that debate?

Well, might take away from that debate is that I should have been Better prepared and and I should have been less angry. I have to say that clinton had had had really um disturbed me with the this constant snide, not quite exact references to racism and White supreme ism in in my work. I detest such things.

And to have those labels stuck on me, he's always avoided taking direct responsibility. Pretty much I was avoided. There's one example I include in the video i've made where he really hasn't successfully avoided IT.

But in most cases, he's trying to say that I rely on sources that were raised but that he's not saying that I myself am a racist. But the end result of those statements is that people all around the world came to the conclusion that gram hancock is a racist and a White supreme is. And that really got under my skin, and I really upset me, and I elt. I felt angry about IT, and I felt that I was there to defend ancient apocalypse as on one where, as in fact, what I was there to do was to listen to a series of lectures where an archaic logic tells me what archologist have found, and that sometimes I am to produce that from what they have found. They're not gonna find anything else, at least not anything to do with .

a loss civilization list. I feel you i've seen the intensity of the attacks and the whole racism way boil is is the one I can get under your skin and it's a tool box has been prevalent over the past that a decade, maybe a little bit more as a method of cancellation.

When a person has has the opposite of racist, very often it's kind of hilarious to watch, but he can get under your skin, especially when you have certain a dynamics that happen on the internet where IT seeps into a wikipedia page, and then other people read that wikipedia page and you get to hear IT from like friends, I didn't know you're act whatever. And you realize that wikipedia description of who you are actually has a lot of power, not by people that know you well about people that are just kind of learning about you for the first time, definitely, and they can really start to annoy you and get onto your skin. And the people are kind of indirectly injecting the writing articles about you that can then be cited about what kip dia IT can really bother a person who is actually trying to do good science and or just trying to inspire people with different .

that my work was being deliberately represented. And I felt that I, as a human being, were being, was being insulted and wronged in in ways that are deeply hurtful. My wife and I have have six children between us, and we have nine grandchildren.

And of those nine grandchildren, seven are of mix rice. And this is my family, and these are kids who are going to grow up and read wikipedia and learn from reading wikipedia. That grandpa was some kind of racist, you know, this is a personal issue for me, and i'm afraid I Carried that personal anger into the debate and and IT made me less effective than I should have been.

But ultimately, I do want to pay tribute. Flint, he is an excEllent debate. He's got a very sharp mind. He's a very clever man and he's very fast on his feet. And I recognized that I was definitely up against a superior debate in that debate.

I'm not sure that I have those debating skills, and I certainly didn't have them on on that particular day. I also admire about flint something else, which is that he was willing to be there. Most articles just don't want to talk to me at all.

They want to insult me from the sidelines. They want to make sure that wikipedia keeps on calling me a sudarat ologies or a preval of sudarat ological theory. They want to make sure that the hints of racism are there, but they actually don't want to sit down and confront with me.

At least plant was willing to do that. And i'm grateful to him for that. And I I think in that sense, IT is an important encounter between people with that, say, an alternative view of history and those with the very much mainstream view of history that are killed gives us and he's also very determined character.

He he doesn't give up. So all of those things about him I I admire and respect, but I think he fought dirty during the debate. And I ve said exactly why in this video. And I now have upon youtube .

to say a positive thing that I enjoyed, I think, towards the end. And him speaking about agriculture was pretty interesting. So the techniques of archaeology pretty interesting, like where you can get some insights through the fog of time about like what people were doing, how they were living, is very interesting.

It's very interesting. It's a very important discipline. And i've said many times before publicly I can do any of my work without the word that I killed.

Just do I emphasize very strongly in this video that I don't study what archaeology study um but nevertheless the data the dark eulogists have generated over the last century or so has been incredibly valuable to me in the work that I do but when I when I look at the great things and the studies of archaeology saying that this is the work of the fair o cafe, despite the absence of any single contemporary inscription that describes IT to cafe and in fact, the presence of other inscriptions that say that they was already there in the time of cool, um I I am not looking at what he he told you study. They just dismiss all of that and lock into the cae uh connection. Go back to tempi.

I'm i'm not really looking at what our geodesic at. I'm looking at the alignments of the megales and how they seem to track procession of the star serious over a period of time. Oculos is not interested in in any of that. So I I value and respect oculos.

I think it's an incredible tool for investigating our post, but I wish archaeology would bring a slightly gently or frame of mind to IT and a slightly open up perspective, and also that that archaic gist would be willing to trust to the general public to make up their own minds. This as though. Certain articles just are afraid of the public being presented with an alternative point of view, which they regard us, quote unquote dangerous uh, because they somehow underestimate the intelligence of the general public can think the general public can just going to accept that much.

Actually, by condemning those alternative point of view archive, just make IT much more likely that the general public will accept those alternative point of view. Because there is a great distrust of experts in our society today and behaving in a snobbish, arrogant way. We archaeologists are the only people who are really qualified to speak about the past, and anybody else who speaks about the past is dangerous.

That actually is not helpful to archaeology. In the long term, there could be a much more positive and a much more CoOperative relationship. And I can see that relationship with with a gentleman like ed bone heart was very much the case, with archologist multiple sin from the university of health sinker, and with geographer also zi, brazilian geographer H A very, very senior figure who I worked with in the amazon for a season to invention apocalypse. Looking at these astonishing earthworks that have emerged from the amazon jungle in which more and more and now being found with lighter, indeed, we found some of them ourselves with lighter while we were there.

Yeah, those an incredible part of the show that got a chance to preview is like there is all this earthworks. Yet the traces of things built on the ground that probably you can only really appreciate when you look from up above. So the idea that they build stuff that you can only appreciate when viewed from up above means they had a very kind of deep relationship with the the sky, with the sky and .

a very good now ledge of geometry as well. Because these geometrical structures and some of them even seem to incorporate geometrical games almost of the kind of squaring the circle. Um it's not quite that, but you have a lovely square earthwork with a lovely circle earthwork right in the middle of IT whatever else they wear they were geometers. They were not just builders of fantastically huge earthworks that nobody expected in the amazon um not just builders of cities that we now know existed in the amazon, but that they were astronomers and mathematicians for everything .

we're talking about is so full mysteries is fascinating, especially the farther back we go.

That's what I love about the past, is the mystery that's there. And that's another thing that I regret about some architects sts, as their mission seems to be to drain or mystery out of the past, to suck IT dry like some kind of vampire sucking the blood out of the past and to reduce IT to a series of numbers um that that appear to be scientific. I I think that that's most unfortunate.

The past is deeply the mysterious, the whole, the whole story of life on earth is deeply mysterious. I mean, we were talking about the timeline of of human beings. But you know, if you go, if you go back to the formation of the earth itself, if i've got the figures rights, it's about foreign half billion years ago that the earth supposedly formed.

IT was then incredibly hot and inhospitable to life for the next several hundred million years. But IT was actually Francis cric who pointed out something ought that within one hundred million years of the earth being cool enough to support life, there's bacteria life all over the planet. And a quick wrote a book called life itself that was published in one thousand hundred and eighty one.

And he suggested that life had been brought here by a process of pens. Mia, that's a an idea that's around in circulation that that comets may Carry bacteria which concede life on on planets. But crick actually, in life itself, was talking about directed pants premiere.

He envisions, this is quick, not me. He envisions an ally civilization far away across the galaxy, which faced. Extinction, perhaps a supernova, was gone to go off in the neighborhood.

They were highly advanced. The first thought that might have been, let's get ourselves off the planet, go and populate some other planet. But the distances of interStellar space was so great.

So their second thought was, let's preserve our DNA. Let's put bacteria, genetically engineered bacteria, into crowd ic chAmbers and fire them off into the universe in all directions. On bottom line of cricks theory and life itself is one of those crag ic containers containing bacteria of life from another solar system crashed into the earlier. And that's why life began so suddenly here on earth.

If we, as a human civilization, continue, I think that is a one way to a create backup of us else. When the universe, given the spaces to do a life, gun and shoot IT everywhere, and they just plans, yes, and you kind of hope that whatever is the magic that that makes up human consciousness, and if that magic is already there in the initial DNA of the bacteria, the potential for .

that magic is the potential is there .

an evolutionary forces will.

will, will work upon IT in in different ways, in different environment, but that the potential is there. Yes, it's something that we would do if we were facing a complete extinction of life on planet earth. A major global effort would be made to preserve IT. Somehow that might well include firing off craggy chAmbers into the universe and hoping that some of them would land somewhere hospitable.

And as you are mentioning, there's just so many interesting mysteries along the way here. For example. I mean, like I think like three billion years IT was single cell organ.

yeah. So IT seems like, well, IT was pretty good. Is single organisms that there is no need for multiple clarity that like for animals, for any of this kind of stuff.

So why is that? IT seems like you could adapt much Better if you are more complicated organism to a really long time to take that leap is IT, because it's really hard to do. And what was the what was the forcing function to do that kind of the and the same?

I mean, for us to be selfish and self obsessed. For us humans, like what was the magic leap to homosapien s from the other harmonious? And why did homosapien s win out against the and rethought and other competitors? Why are they not around, uh, anymore? So those are all fascinating mysteries. And he feels like the .

more we propose .

radical ideas about our past, take a serious and explore, uh, the more will be able to have a figure out that puzzle that go these all the way back to homeless, safe, maybe all the way back the origin of life on earth.

I think that homosapien s is the tail end of a very long, deep series of mysteries that goes back right to the beginning of life on this planet, and probably long before actually, because this planet is part of the universe, and god knows what else is out there in universe.

Why do you think homosapien S A evolved? What like what? What is the magic things? This is a bunch of theory about fire leading to meet to cooking, which can fuel the brain as one.

The others, like social interaction, were able to use their imagination to construct ideas and share those ideas and tell great stories. And that is somehow an evolutionary advantage? Dv, like favor .

conception. It's interesting. There is no doubt that anatomically modern humans and the anthills co. Existed in europe for at least ten thousand years, probably more than that.

And yet one of the the popular views is the anatomy modern humans wiped out than the other fills that we kill them um but at the same time we were into breeding with the nano. Thus in a sense the nanosolar are not gone. They are still within us today.

We are. There's another theory that i've read about what there is some evidence that the underdogs were cannabis, is that there was ritual analisa took place among of the understands and particularly the eating of human brains um and this can cause a coral which can kill off whole populations. That's what another suggestion whether the anothers died out.

There's lots of possibilities that have been put forward. Maybe we just outcompeted them. Maybe maybe anatomically modern humans had some brain connections that they didn't have even done in the anotheh brain was bigger than the brain of anatomically modern human beings, as the old saying goes, sizes and everything.

Maybe we just had a more compact, more efficient brain. The fact of the matter is that nine thousand dinosaurs did not survive the rise of homosapien s. For our discussion, though.

what is interesting, as all the harmonies seem to be expires, yes, they spread. And then I didn't know this.

The fact that homer erector was all over the planet more than a million years ago is testament to that. And I do think that exploration urge is is fundamental humanity. And I I would like to say that's what I think i'm doing. I'm exercising my urge to explore the past in in my own way, making my own path and defining defining my own route.

That's the leap from non human to human. One of the the things you have discussed is your idea of what was the leap to human civilization, what is the driver? What is the inspiration for humans to form civilizations? And for you that seminars m definitely.

Can you explain what I mean? I think that seminars m is the origin of of everything of value in humanity. I think IT was the earliest form of science.

When I spend time with shamans in the amazon, I observe people who are constantly experimenting with plants in a very scientific way. They are always trying a pinch of this and a pinch of that in different forms. For example, of the iowa blue to see if IT and houses IT or makes IT makes IT different in in any way.

Uh, the invention of curry is a remarkable scientific feat which is entirely down to shamans in the in the amazon. They are the the scientists of the hunter for igor state of society um and they were the ancient um leaders of human civilization so I think all all civilization arises out of shamanism and shamanism is a naturally scientific endeavor where experimental is undertaken an exploration of investigation of the environment around us. And what i'm suggesting is that that one group, perhaps more than one group, went a bit further than other groups did, and use that study of the skies and develop navigational techniques, and we're able to sail and explore the earth. But that ultimately, what lies behind IT is the same curiosity and investigative skill that chamans are still using a in the amazon to this day. And and I do see them as as a scientist in a very proper .

use of the word. But do you think something like a osa was a part .

of that process? Yes, I osc a is the result of sharpish investigation of what's available in the amazon. Of course, I asa is all the fat in western industrialized societies today.

And some people see that as a miracle cure for all kind of elements and problems. And perhaps IT is perhaps IT can be in certain ways, I asked itself, is not an amazonian word. IT comes from the queue al language.

And IT means the vine of souls or the vine of the dead. But the iwa of vine is only one of two principal ingredients in the iwa bro. And the other ingredient are leaves that contain dieth le trip to mine. And there are two sources of that. One is a bush called sick try of the riders that its potential name they call IT Sharona in the amazon.

And its leaves are rich in diesel trip to in d mt, which is arguably the most powerful psychiatric known to science um and and the other source comes from another vine, deep torst americana, which the leaves of that vine also contain emt so the iwa vine on its own is not going to give you a visionary journey and the leaves that contain d mt. On their own, whether they come from development is, or whether they come from shua, are not gonna give you a visionary journey. And the reason they're not gonna give you the visionary journey is because of the ni mono ami oxidize and the gut that shuts down d mt. When orally, basically, d mt is not accessible orally unless you combine IT with a monotony, oxides and hibor. And that's what I mean when i'm talking about science in the amazon, because are so many tens of thousands, thousands different species of plants and trees in the amazon, and they've gone around and they've found just two or three of them that put together can produce these extraordinary visionary.

Imagine the number of plans they had to have eaten, yeah, IT consumed and smoke of all kinds of combinations to arrive exactly .

exactly to realize that this is something, this is something very special. And then and then to use the principles there to to find another form of IT. So I A wasa is the form that is made with the I wasa vine and the leaves of the china plants. But ya hai is made from the air water vine and the leaves of another vine developers, korona, which contained not only an N D mt, which is the d mt. That everybody's pretty much familiar with these days, but also five M O D mt, uh, and the yai experience, which I have I have also had h in my view is more intense and more powerful, almost to the point of being overwhelming the the I wash experience.

But but what the result of this, a sophisticated chemistry that we find taking place here, uh is is uh a brew which is hyde's drink, is the taste I find IT quite repulsive um I almost reach just just smelling IT in the in the cup um but then unleash these extraordinary experiences. And IT isn't just pretty visuals. It's the sense of encounters with sentient others that there are sentient beings, that somehow we are surrounded by a realm of sentence that is not Normally accessible to us.

And that that what the I was could brew in certain other psychodeviant s like, like some side aside in mushrooms in the high enough, those can do IT as well elliston to IT. But iao aska is the moster in this of of lowering the veil to what appears to be a seamlessly convincing other realm, other world. And of course the hardline rational scientists will say that's just all fantasies of your brain um but I don't think we fully understand or even close to understanding exactly what consciousness is.

And I remain open to two possibilities that consciousness is generated by the brain is made by the brain in the way that the factory makes cars. But I also am open to the possibility that the brain is the receiver of consciousness, just as a television that is the receiver of television signals um and um that if that if that is the case, then we locked in to the physical realm. We need our everyday alert, problem solving state of consciousness.

And that's the state of consciousness that western civilization values and highly encourages. But these other states of consciousness that allow us to access alternative realities are possibly more important. IT may be apocryphally IT was reported uh, after Frances crick role and his nobel prize for the discovery of the double helix that he finally got IT under the influence of SSD.

There's the classic example of Carry moleson, the polymerase chain reaction. He said he got that under the influence of L. D. So the notion that the alert problem solving state of consciousness is the only valuable state of consciousness ness is disproved by valuable experiences that people have had in in a visionaries state.

But the question that remains unresolved is those entities that we encounter and not everybody encounters them, and you're certainly not going to encounter them. On every eye ka trip, there are eyeworks a journeys where nothing seems to happen. Um I suspect something does happen, but IT happens at a subconscious level. I know that chamans in the amazon regard those trips where actually you don't see visions as among gs the most valuable. And they say you are learning stuff that you're not remembering, but you're learning you're learning IT anyway.

Um these seventy and others that are encountered, what are they you know are they just figments of our brain on drugs or are we actually gaining access to a parallel reality where which is inhabited by consciousness, which is a non physical form a and and i'm equally open to that idea. I think that maybe maybe what is going on here with with I wash. The other thing is that there is a presence within the iowa ka brew and SHE is present, both present both in our aska and in ya hai.

And that's one of the reasons why the shaman say that that actually the master of the process is the iwasaki ine, not the leaves. This as though the vine's honest the leaves to gain in access to human consciousness. And there, if you have sufficient exposure to, I was, or yeah, hey, you drink IT enough times i've had maybe seventy five or eighty journeys with with I, you definitely start to feel an intelligent presence with a definite personality, which I interpret as feminine, and which most people in the west interpret.

Ted has feminine, and they call her mother I was. There are some tribes in the amazon who interpret the spirit of iwa as male. But in all cases that spirit is sees a teacher. Uh, that's fundamentally what I I ask is, is a teacher. And IT teaches moral lessons.

And that's fascinating that the mixture of two plants should cause us to reflect on our own behavior and how IT may have hurt and damaged and affected others and fill us with A A powerful wish not to repeat that negative behavior again in the future. Uh, the more baggage you Carry in your life, the part of the beating the iowa k is gone to give you until IT forces you to confront and take responsibility for your own behavior. Um and that is that is an extraordinary thing to come from a from A A plant brew in that way.

And I think in yes, I think I asked, is the most powerful of all the plant medicines are for accessing these mysterious realms. But there's no doubt you can access them. They are all trip to me and they're all related to one another in in one way, you can access them through ali, and you certainly can access them through sode mushrooms as well. And large enough dose.

both possibly as you describe our interesting and to me that are kind of I can do each other, is I wonder what the the limit of the brain's capacity is to create imaginary worlds and treat them seriously, make them real, and in those world's explore and have real set of moral deep brainstorming .

sessions .

with those entities is is almost like the power of the human mind to imagine taken to its limit IT.

And the curious thing is that the same micon og phy people paint their visions. After I was concessions, people were painting in europe, in the cave of last go, for example. And of course they had access to silicide mushrooms.

Uh, in prehistoric europe, uh, there's a remarkable commonality in the imagery that that is painted. I like to give credit where credit is due. And there are two names that need to be mentioned here.

One is the late great terrence mechano and his book food of the god's where he proposed the idea very strongly that IT was our ancestral encounters with psychodeviant s. That made us fully human. That's that's what switched on the modern human mind. And very much the same idea began to explore a bit earlier by professor David Lewis Williams at the university of wood water has rumped in south africa, fabulous book called the mind in the cave, where where he is a gain, arguing that these astonishing similarities in in cavard and rocker all around the world can only be properly explained by people in deeply altered states of consciousness attempting to remember when they return to a Normal, everyday state of consciousness, attempting to remember their visions and document them on permanent media like the like, the wall of a cave.

So typically you get a lot of geometric patterns, but you also got entities, and those entities often are thereon, throbs, pot, animal pot, human inform, might have the head of a world and the body of a human being, might have the head of a bird and the body of a human being, and so on and so forth, and that they communicate with us in the visionary state. Interestingly, although this sounds like wool and IT is an area that most scientists would steer clear off at risk of their careers, there is very serious work now being done at imperial college in london and at the university of california, san ago, where volunteers are being given extended emt. There's a new technology, d mt x, where the d mt is fed directly into the bloodstream by drip and it's possible to keep the individual in the peak D M T state, which Normally when you smoke or vae D M T, you looking if you're lucky at ten minutes or if you're unlucky if it's a bad journey because those ten minutes can see, wait forever um but um with d mt x, with the drip feeding of dm t bloodstream, these volunteers actually could be kept in the peak state for hours.

And unlike lsd, where you rapidly build up tolerance, nobody ever builds up tolerance of empty IT always hits you with the same power. Even if you took IT yesterday and the day before and you're taking IT tomorrow as well, it's still gonna that same part. There's no tolerance there.

So that's how they can they can use that lack of tolerance to to keep volunteers in the state. And then when they debrief those volunteers, they're also putting them in our scanner and looking at what's happening in the brain. But when they d debrief them, they're all talking about encounters with senate and others.

There's even a group now called cent and others where people are exchange and volunteers are are now exchanging their experiences. They didn't do they weren't allowed to do so at the begin of experiment. But now that most of them have left IT, they're exchanging their experiences.

And it's all about encounters with incentive, others who wish to teach their moral lessons. Now, a to me, that wild, what? What is going on here? Uh, what? what? How do we count for this? Yeah, I get the notion of hallucinations and brightly coloured visuals, but the moral lessons that come with IT, those are very hard 的。

yeah. And would you say that the reason I could give birth to a civilization is that because the such visions can help create myths, s and special religious mths, that would be a cohesive thing for a large group of people to get around yeah.

and can help us to be Better members of our own command with moral lessons, yeah, more contributing members of our community, more caring, more nurturing members of our community. That's got to be good for for any community.

I've said this a dozen times, but i'll say that again, if if I had the power to do so, I would make IT a law, an absolute law, that anybody running for a powerful political position, particularly if that position is president or head of state, in any kind of way that that person has to undergo the I wasa ordeal. First, they have to have ten or twelve sessions of iowa a uh, as a condition for applying for the job. Uh, I suspect that most who had had those experiences wouldn't want to apply for the job anymore. They would want to live a different kind of life. And those who did want to Carry on being a leader of a nation would be very different people from the people who are leading the nations of the earth into chaos and destruction today.

Yeah, we'll be doing for the right reasons. I mentioned to, I recently interviewed down true and actually brought up the same, same idea that there would be a much Better world if most of congress and most politicians would take some forms like.

at least I have no doubt that would be a petty world. I mean, this raises an interesting point which is the role of government in controlling our consciousness um and in my opinion the the the so called war on drugs is one of the fundamental abuses of human rights that have been undertaken in the park in the past sixty years um IT should be a republican issue if I understand the republican party correctly the republican party believes in individual freedom for adults as much as possible and particularly the freedom to make choices over their own bodies but in the case of even cannabis, I know there's one of the great things that's happening in amErica it's happening state by state where cannabis is being is being legalized and that joni an hand of government has being taken off the back of people who are who are consuming a medicine that is far less harmful than alcohol which is glorified in in our society um we cannot say that we are free if we allow our government to dictate to us what experiences we may or may not have in our inner consciousness while doing no harm to others.

And the point there is we already have a whole raft of laws the deal with us when we do harm to others. Do we really need laws that tell us what we may, may or may not experience in the inner symptom of our own consciousness? I think it's a fundamental violation of adult sovereignty.

And we would have much less drug problems if these drugs were all legalized and made available to people without shaming them without without punishing them in any way, but just part of Normal social life. And then you could be sure that you are getting good product rather than really shitty product, which has been cut with all sorts of other things. Ultimately, the way forward is for adults to take responsibility for their own behavior and for society to allow that to happen, and not to have big government taking responsibility .

for decisions that should be in the hands of individuals are being integrated to scientific cities, large skills as well.

Interesting, we've been a revolution in in the way science looks at psychedelics in the last twenty twenty five years um they were in that highly demonic category. But again, it's one of those paradise which gets overwhelmed by new evidence. And I began to be realized that the silos bin and and other psychiatrically are very helpful in a range of conditions from which people people suffer posttraumatic stress disorder.

The fear of death when you, when you are suffering from terminal cancer can be overwhelming and has been found that that that silos ban can remove that uh, deep depressions can be evaporated with one single massive sila IDE in journey. They just go away. They're really good science on this.

And and they are being integrated into conventional and more and more, we'll see that happening. I'm not sure if IT all happen as much as as fast as I would like to see that happen in my lifetime. But is gonna happen?

You actually just recently found out he had a ted talk or unconsciousness that I was taken down. Yeah, and I was just part of just the general resistance because there was was a pretty IT wasn't rather he wasn't really .

rather I was talking about, I was ask and I was talking about the view that I hold very strongly that as long as we do no harm to others, sovereign ult should be allowed to make decisions about their own bodies, are not face a jail sentence or or shaming as a result. But this, so I was a ted x talk, not a ted talk organized by a local ted ted group. They call them tedx talks.

And I I gave this, I gave this talk about the war unconsciousness and IT was immediately pulled down from tez main channel uh with all kinds of bizarre reasons being given. But unfortunately IT was too late because the number of people had already downloaded to talk and then uploaded IT onto other youtube channels and actually they are banning of IT, made IT go viral in a way that would not have, would not have happened otherwise. But I get is a sign that that points of view that are not acceptable to those in positions of power are simply dismissed and shut down. Or at least attempts are made to to do so in general.

just along that line of thinking and pretty sure that what we understand about conscious ness today will seem silly uh, to humans from one hundred years from now.

You bet IT will, especially if we honor psychiatrically to investigate consciousness and you know that that is what is happening at at imperial college right now is is the investigation of the experience. They're not looking there are other trials that are looking for the therapeutic potential of the nt, but in this case, they're looking entirely at the experiences that people have and why they're so similar from people from different age groups and different genders and different parts of the world. They are all having the same experiences.

And for me, from an engineering perspective, it's interesting if it's possible to engineer consciousness in artificial beings.

Yeah it's it's another way to approach the question of how show is caused human conscious ously you from where does IT arise? Is IT something that permeate all of life? And in that case, what is the thing that makes life special? Like what is life? What is these living organisms that we have here and, uh that that evolved to create humans, and what is truly special about humans, and is both scary, exciting to consider the possibility that we can create something like this year.

But why not? We are a vehicle for consciousness in my view. Uh, I think consciousness is present in all life on earth. I don't think it's limited to human beings. We have the equipment to manifest and express that consciousness in the way that a dog, for example, doesn't have or a snail doesn't have or a pigeon doesn't have.

But when I look at two pigeons sitting on my garden fence and rubin up close to each other and enjoying each other's company and taking off together and hanging out together, I think they are conscious beings. Um and and I think consciousness is everywhere. I think it's the basis of everything. And I suspect that fundamentally consciousness is non physical and that IT can manifest in physical forms where IT can then have experiences that would not be available in the non physical state.

That's that's a guess maybe a fascinating because then you can construct all kinds of .

physical forms manual. And is, if they become consciousness, isn't some suggestion that artificial intelligence is already becoming conscious?

That means humans are really uncomfortable because we are at at the top of the food chain. We consider ourselves truly special in to consider that there are other things that could be special is a scary.

We look how other people make us uncomfortable too. I mean, look at the state of the world today, uh, all the conflicts that are that that are raging. Uh, that's that's because we're afraid.

When I say we am speaking nation by nation, that we, we are afraid of other people. We fear that they're going to hurt us or damage us in somewhere. And so we to stop that.

This is the root of many, many conflicts. This, this fear. And so fear of A, I may not be such a good idea after all, that might be very interesting to go down that route and see where IT comes. Certainly, in terms of expLoring conscious ness.

IT is very interesting. Fear is a useful thing, but IT can also be destructive.

but can be destructive. And I can shut you down completely.

If you look into the into the future, maybe the next content years, what would you hope are the interesting discoveries in our chaos? Gy, that will, that will find. Well.

i'd really like to know how the great pyramid was built. We now have with new tech with with scanning technology, it's now become apparent that there are many major voids within the great pyramid right above the grand gallery. There's what looks like a second grand gallery that has been identified with remote scanning new chAmbers.

One of them has even been opened up, are already are being found as a result of this. So, so IT may be that the seat that the great pyramid will ultimately give up its secrets. I often think that the great praed's is partly designed to do that, is designed to invite its own initiates.

Some people aren't interested in the great parameter all, uh, but some people are fascinated by and they drawn to order and when they drawn to all IT to immediately starts raising questions in their minds and they seek answers to their questions so it's like saying, here I stand, investigate me, find out about me, figure out what I am. Why have I got these two shafts cut into the side of the so called queen's chAmber? Why do they slow up through the body of the great permit?

Why do they not exit on the outside of the great pyramid? Why, when we send a robot up those shifts, do we find them after about one hundred and sixty feet, blocked by a door with metal handles? Why, when we drill through that door to see what's beyond three or four feet away, we see another door? Uh, it's like very frustrating, but it's it's saying to us, keep on expLoring if you if you're persistent enough, we will eventually give you the answer.

So i'm hoping that that answer will come as to how this most mysterious of monuments was actually built and the inspiration that lay behind IT. Certainly, i'm sure IT was never a tomb or a tomb. Only the later pyramids might be. Actually no ferron ic burial has been discovered in any pyramid.

But but nevertheless, it's pretty clear that the later pyramids with the pyramid text written on the walls, like the pyramid, Venus fifth dynasty pyramid at sea, wear tomes um but but the great pyramid go to that length to create a tub, to make A A scale model of the earth, to oriented IT perfectly, to true north, to make IT six million tons. This is not a tube, this is something else. This is a curiosity device.

This is something that is asking us to understand. And I hope we will understand IT. And I hope I hope egyptologists will be willing to set aside that prejudice that they're only looking at a tube and consider other possibilities and has new tech is revealing these previously unknown inner spaces within the great pair mid. I think that's gonna come more and more likely.

So not just how I was built, but the but until IT seems obvious the tobia cosmic motivation.

Yeah, very, very much so as above. So below, you know, which is which is an idea in the hermetically of the god. Hermes, for the greeks, was the greek version of south, the wisdom god of the ancient egypt. And that's where that's saying comes from IT comes from the homework a, but is expressing an ancient egyptian idea to mire the perfection of the heavens on earth.

So you think there is something interesting to be discovered about the how I was built. You may beyond the side of the the ideas of .

the using ramps. And yeah, ramps won't do IT. Ramps won. Do IT no what? Uh, it's true that the ancient egyptians did hold big objects on sleds, on wet sand.

There are even reliefs that showed the process where an individual is standing on the front of the sledge, pouring water down to to lubricate the sound underneath. And and that's a perfectly respectable way to move a two hundred ten blocker stone across. Sam if you flat, sam, if you have enough people to pull IT.

But that is not gonna. You get dozens of seventy ton granite blocks, three hundred feet in the air to form the roof of the king's chAmber and the floor of the chAmber above IT, and the roof, that chAmber and the floor of the chAmber above that, and so on and so forth. Watson never got those objects up there. Somehow they were lifted up there. Now, yeah, ramps are proposed as the solution.

But but where are the remains of those ramps? If you're going to Carry blocks wing up to two or three tones right to the top of the great pyramid to complete your work, you're gonna need a ramp that's going to extend out into the desert for more than a mile at a ten degree slope and is calculated that a ten degree slope is about the maximum slope that human labor can hold objects up a ramp um and that ramp can't just be compacted sand since heavy objects are being hold up IT is gonna have to be made of very solid material, almost as solid as the pyramid itself. Where is IT? We don't see any any trace of those so called drams that are supposed to have been involved in the construction of the pyramid.

I think we don't know. I think we have no idea it's built. That's why there's so many different theories. We haven't got the answer yet. But the how of IT is one of the big mysteries from our post.

I love the great premier as a kind of puzzle. I was created by the ancient people's to be solved by later people. I mean, this is, I don't know you aware of the ten thousand .

year .

clock I know that was built by jeff bases and danny hillis in crd, abba, multiple and texas. So the building a clock that takes once a year for ten thousand years. So it's talking about and it's supposed to sort of run nuclear pars and it's it's an example of modern humans thinking like, okay, if ten thousand years from now and beyond, if something goes wrong or or the future humans are way different from back and they they analyze what happened here. How can we create monuments that they can then analyze, yes, and in that way be curious about in in their curiosity, discover some deep truth about this current time is an interesting kind of notion of, like, what can we build now .

that would lost? And the answer is that the majority what we build now wouldn't lost would I would be gone within a few thousand years. But what would last is massive megalithic structures like the great pyramid that would that would last. Uh, and and IT could be IT could be used to send a message to the future.

Um I think quebec I tappy so as a similar function, I mean there IT was IT was buried a ten thousand four hundred years ago and then for the next ten thousand years nobody touched IT nobody knew IT was there IT IT IT took the genius of clash smith, the original excavator, to realize what he'd found and what IT and what IT was. But the great thing about the ceiling of quebec tappy, the deliberate burial of quebec tappy, is IT means that no later culture trowed over IT and imposed there organic materials on IT and messed up the dating sequences and so on. And so either vandalized or used IT as a quality, is all there intact.

So you mention that the permanent and some, the other amazing things that he must have built, as was the result of us human struggling with our mortality.

That's that's the ultimate, the ultimate goal. That seems to me, what's at the heart of many pyramids around the world is that they connected in one wear another to the notion of death and to the notion of the exploration of the afterlife. And this is, of course, the fundamental mystery that all human beings face.

We may, we may wish to ignore IT. We may wish to pretend that it's not gonna happen. But we are, of course, all mortal.

Uh, every one of us, all eight billion, or however many of us that are on the planet right now, we're all going to face death sooner later. And the question is, what happens? And there are a few cultures that really intensely, deeply studied that mystery.

We are not one of them. The general view of science, I think, is that where accidents of evolution, when we die, the light banks out, there's no more of us. There's no such thing as the soul.

But that's not a proven point. There's no experiment that proves that the case. We know we die, but we don't know whether there's such a thing as a soul or not.

He has the great mystery.

is a great mystery that we all should. And those cultures that have investigated IT, an ancient, ancient egypt, is the best example, have investigated IT thorough and map out the journey that we make after death. But that notion of a journey after death and have hazards and chAllenges along the way, and ultimately of a judgment, that notion is found right around the world, and IT and IT even items into the three monotheistic face that are still present in the world today.

Well, you're one such human, and you said you can to play your own death. Are you afraid to?

No, i'm not afraid of death at all. I'm curious about death. I think IT could be very interesting, I think is the beginning of the next great venture.

So I don't fear IT I would like to live as as long as my my body is is healthy enough to make living worthwhile um but I don't feel death. What I do fear is pain uh I do fear the humiliation got old age and the collapse of the faculties can bring. I do fear the cancers that can strike us down riders with pain and agony that I fear very, very much indeed.

But death, it's gonna come to all of us. I accept IT. It's gna come to me.

And i'm not gonna say i'm looking forward to IT, but when IT happens, i'm gone to approach IT, I hope with a sense of curiosity and a sense of adventure that there's something beyond this life, uh, IT isn't haven, IT isn't hell, but there's something the soul goes on. I think recension is a very plausible ble idea. Again, modern science would reject that.

But there's the excEllent work of the in Stephen children who remember past lives, who found that children up to the age of seven often have memories of past lives. And in cultures where memories of past lives are discouraged, they tend not to express that much. But in cultures where memories of past lives are encouraged, like india, they do express IT.

And he found several subjects, children under the age of seven in india, who were able to remember specific details of a past life. And he was able to go to the place where that past life unfolded and validate those those details. So if if consciousness is the basis of everything, if it's the essence of everything, and consciousness benefits in some way from being increased in physical form, then reincarnation makes a lot of sense. All the investment that the universe is put into creating this home for life may have a much bigger purpose than than just accident.

What a beautiful mystery this whole thing is.

Yes, we are immersed in mystery. We live in the midst mystery. We're surrounded by mystery and if we pretend with deluding .

ourselves and gram, thank you so much for inspiring the world to explore that mystery. Thank you for talking the day.

Thank you. Likes been a pleasure.

Thanks for listening to this conversation. Gram hancock, to support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you use the words from Charles Darwin.

IT is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent. IT is the one that is the most adaptable to change. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.