#417 – Kimbal Musk: The Art of Cooking, Tesla, SpaceX, Zip2, and Family
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The following is a conversation with Kimball Musk, a longtime entrepreneur and chef and author of a new cookbook called The Kitchen Cookbook, Cooking for Your Community. You should check it out. It is, in fact, the first cookbook I've ever owned. I've already made stuff from it, and it's delicious.

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Growing up in South Africa, you said it was a violent place. What are some formative moments that you remember from that time? South Africa was... So I grew up in apartheid South Africa, but more specifically, the fall of apartheid. So it was the 80s. I was a teenager in the 80s. And our community would...

Part of our social life, frankly, was the anti-apartheid protests and to go be with white people, black people, kind of mixing it all together. The most formative experience is, frankly, how much I appreciate a place like America where we have value for human life. So there was a country where human life was not valued. It's a weird thing to come from that to here where

We take it so seriously if someone dies in a war or something like that. And we just didn't take it seriously in South Africa. People died. People were killed. I saw someone killed in front of me. It was getting off a train. And it's a very violent train, known for violence. We were stupid kids. We didn't really listen to our parents. We went on this train and the doors opened and I had...

people trying to get off the train. And in front of me, two black people, one black guy just stabbed this knife in the side of this other black guy's head. And you're like, what the fuck? And you just... I've got to get off the train. How old were you at this time? Probably 16 or 17. And I've got to get off the train. And everyone is trying to get me to get off because, you know, they're all behind me. So I step off and I step into the pool of blood, one foot, and...

And then I just walk for about 100 paces while the stickiness of the blood just kind of, for my sneakers, just on one foot, just like leaves a footprint behind me. And you just walk on. You just walk on. Did the others walk on as well? Everyone walked on. That's an interesting point you make. Underlying the violence is a kind of philosophy that human life is disposable. The individual life is disposable. I mean, that underlies violence.

Many ideologies, you know, I grew up in the Soviet Union. The value of human life was lower there than in the United States. The value of the individual in the United States is really high. It's probably an index you can put together. Yeah, right, exactly. Per nation. That's a really interesting way to put it because violence is much easier on a mass scale. Suffering, causing suffering on a mass scale is much easier when you don't value the human life.

I've heard this before, which I think I agree with, is when someone is killed, someone is taken from our lives, the vacuum that it creates, the social vacuum, is extraordinarily painful. And it truly is true. I mean, if someone in my community passes away, it's very, very sad for me. And when you go to a place where you grow up in a place where that human life is not valued,

There's something about the... There's a little bit less of the social vacuum created because everyone is kind of expecting everyone to potentially be taken out at any moment. But then there's also a beauty to it because...

There's a much more of a celebratory element. When my cousin Russ and I, again, we were stupid kids. We shouldn't be doing this. But we'd go into the townships where a lot of the violence would be happening. And we really didn't see most of the violence there. It was in these more protests and so forth. But there's a joy that also comes from lower value of human life. There's a real joy. Everyone is like, well,

I mean, it's beautiful. We'd have dinner with black friends, you know, friends with their family. We were still pretty young. And there was just a real joy to it. When you accept mortality, you can really enjoy life. You can really enjoy it. I mean, I think there's actually quite a nice insight. I've never really put it that way, but I think that's right, actually. I think you just chill out a bit. Take things a little less seriously. Because life does end for everybody. It does. Right. And if you just...

head on accept that fact yeah you can just enjoy every single moment and let go of this attachment uh and just enjoy the moment it's a real i do love that we all live longer and so forth but we should live longer with a with the goal of joy and the goal of happiness and peace um not uh some some form of misery that you choose to attach yourself to

- Maximize joy. - Maximize joy, that's right. - There's a story that Walter Isaacson writes about where Elon got beat up pretty bad and you were there and then you also had to watch your dad yell at Elon for an hour, calling him worthless, all those kinds of things. You said it was the worst memory of your life. What do you make of such cruelty? What do you remember from that time? - I mean, it was horrible.

I think, you know, coming back to the point of low value of human life, they tried to kill him. It wasn't, it was no holding back. So I just watched someone, it wasn't just one, but there was a main person and then there was a few others that piled in. They just, they tried to kill him in front of me. We were eating sandwiches on a staircase at the school, an outdoor staircase, and I just had to scream.

They were not coming up to me, and I just had to watch, and I couldn't help. It was one of the saddest, most difficult experiences. It just was awful. Just like that, life can end. Yeah. It could have been you. Yeah, I think I've had a near-death experience where I almost died. I was in 2010.

And I think that, and I broke my neck, and I can go to that story in a moment, but this was different. This was, this comes back to the low value of human life part where if someone had killed my brother, if that person had beat him to death, which he was trying to do, life would have gone on. That's like an insane thought in an American, maybe in some tough neighborhoods, but for the most part, it's another thing.

Yeah, the brutality of that, the mundaneness of that brutality. Yeah. It makes you think of all the places in the world that that's happening. Exactly. And all the beautiful people that just disappear. I always say to people who have an opinion about America that, you know, this is a really bad country or whatever, and I say, look, please go try another country before you say that. Not to say that America can't get better.

but please go try another country because not having that perspective or having a perspective that, I don't know, they'll catch up on their shoulder about the country that they're in. Okay, go try another country and then come back and tell me. Pick any country. It doesn't have to be some very violent country. Go pick any country. And you just realize that actually the world doesn't think the same way that America thinks.

And you're going to just learn a perspective that I think gives you a better way to critique where we live in America. Yeah, it's humbling. You said that your dad was a roller coaster of affection and then verbal abuse. Walter Isaacson quotes Barack Obama who said, "'Someone once said that every man is trying to live up to his father's expectations or make up for his father's mistakes, and I suppose that may explain my particular malady.'"

Is part of that ring true for you? What I thought you were going to say, what I thought you were going to end the sentence with, live up to my father's expectations. That's what most people say. But then you said the second part, which is make up for his mistakes. And I think that's actually, that one rings true for me. He was really, he's still alive, but I'm not connected to him. But he's very, he taught me, the phrase I used to have,

was he taught me what not to do. So I still actually learned a lot. What kind of human not to be, what kind of actions not to take. And so that kind of closer to living up to his mistakes, but my father was such a train wreck that it's not really mistakes. It's like intentional actions of what not to do. Okay, don't do that. But there's still the trauma of that

You know, it has an effect on the human psychology and can permeate their time. So it has probably complex, indirect effects on who you are, the good and the bad. There's a critique that my friends give me, which is when they're talking to me, I kind of just drift away. I'm still looking at them. I'm still nodding. I might even respond to their comments.

to them in their conversation, but I'm actually not there. And I've realized that actually that I grew up because my father would just verbal abuse. One way to say it, it is abuse, but it's more just verbal diarrhea for hours and constantly saying, do you understand? He wants to make sure that I'm paying attention. So I trained myself to

look like I'm paying attention, but I'm not. - To disappear to some place. - Disappear to some place. - Wherever that is. - Yeah, and I do that less and less of a time, but I-- - But that path has been paved somewhere in your mind at childhood, so it could be easy to walk down it. You and Elon were close growing up, you're still close. What did you learn from each other? How did you complement each other?

Yeah, I think we are a good complement. I'll talk for myself first. My strength is definitely on the social side. I love the gathering place. Mm-hmm.

And I love putting people together in person, and I love to have vibrant debates and conversations. I've been doing that forever, including some fun parties and stuff where I bring people together, and I really kind of want people to have fun and be – but be vulnerable in a – not just like silly partying, but actually like let's all connect. The definition for me of a good party is people laugh and cry. Mm-hmm.

I want to have people have an emotional connection. I go to Burning Man every year, and there's no question you will cry at some point during Burning Man. No small talk. No small talk. Yeah, exactly. No small talk. You're totally right on. Most parties, not parties, but most events you go to are like clubs, these sort of nightclubs. And I never go to those. And my joke is, why would I want to go to a place where I pay to shout small talk in the dark?

That's a good line. That's what it feels like. The only reason I enjoy those places is the full absurdity of exactly that. Right, it's totally absurd. What are we doing? What is this? What is this life? My compliment for my brother was just bringing joy and social connection. He's truly an engineering genius. I've worked with him forever, and we do compliment each other.

You just came out with a cookbook. By the way, thank you for giving me my first cookbook. I feel legit. I love that it's your first cookbook. I'm going to keep it on the counter and it's going to give me legitimacy when anyone comes over. Hey, listen, I'm basically a chef now. That's right. Exactly. When did you first fall in love with cooking?

I started cooking when I was 11 years old. My mom is just, she's wonderful, but she's self-admittedly a bad cook. But at the time, it was, and I think anyone with kids goes through this, your kids just want like something that, like spaghetti bolognese or a burger or something. And my mom would do brown bread, plain yogurt,

and boiled squash, you know, like the absolute most disgusting things that a child could imagine eating. And so I said, can I cook? And she said, yeah, if you want to cook, no problem. So I went to the grocery store and I, back in those days, a butcher separate to the grocery store. And I went to the butcher and I said, you know, what can I cook? And he pulled out a chicken and

And he said, this is the easiest recipe for you. Just put it on a pan in an oven, a hot oven, because back then the ovens weren't necessarily like 400 degrees or 450 or whatever. And put it in a hot oven for one hour and enjoy. That was it.

And so I went home and actually I also brought some French fries. I'll tell you that as well. I'm a kid. Of course I want French fries. So the roast chicken was French fries. And the chicken came out and it was just fantastic. It was. Absolutely fantastic.

That's incredible. Yeah. You didn't screw it up the first time. First of all, I think that also kicks off the magic. If you screw it up and you're like, oh, maybe this is not for me. So for me, it really did kick it off. You started out on a high note. Yeah, right. Exactly. But I'll tell the French fry part, which was a disaster. So I cooked the French fries, but I didn't heat the oil first. So I just put the potatoes in the oil and I waited for it to heat up.

And I just was throwing up later that night. Your body can't ingest that much because it sucks the oil in. And so that was a disaster. But at the time, it tasted good. The real magic, which I also found was wonderful, was when I cooked, my brother, my sister, my mom, all very, very busy, very intense people would sit down and we would have a meal together. And I was like, wow, this is a powerful thing.

It's a very powerful thing that I've now got where in no other way could I have that connection with my family. I mean, obviously we stay connected, we're very close, et cetera, but in no other way can we sit down and just talk about things or talk about whatever's on our mind or just to just not even talk, just to be at the table together.

And I've done that now through my whole life, my kids, still for my family. And we will do gratitudes at the beginning of our meal. And it's just, I think what kept me cooking, what made my love of cooking so great was actually the fact that we would sit down and be present with each other. And I'm also just also hard with that too. So I also get to be present. What is that about food that...

brings people together

And not just together, but like really together where you're like paying attention. Right. Like what is that? Why is it food? Like what else does that? Sometimes maybe alcohol can do that, which is a kind of food, I guess. Yeah, but I think alcohol is different because you're usually standing when you're doing alcohol. So you're like, you're socializing, but it's kind of, you're just going to stay more in the small talk zone. Yeah. Right. Whereas if you sit down and I see this in my restaurant, in the kitchen in Boulder, I

where we have every viewpoint, or we go to Denver, every viewpoint. We went to Chicago, every viewpoint. And the physical presence of someone being right there

is people are just very different, absolutely different to what they are online. I think we all know the difference between, you know, you send an email to someone and they misunderstand the email, right? And you're, oh, if I just had talked to the person, it would have been fine. Well, this is now happening at scale, you know, with all of these, you know,

what do you call it, trolling or whatever. And I have, I've sat at the bar and I've had a hardcore Trump supporter and I'm just curious. I'm just like, tell me what, I'm not a Trump supporter, but tell me more. And it actually draws the conversation out because you're there for an hour or longer. There's no rush to get the answer.

And I think that's a big difference. I've had one time where just a couple months ago, I had someone, I was sitting at the community table. We have a community table in the restaurant. And he was, I didn't know him too well, but he asked me, did I know that 9-11 was a conspiracy and it didn't really happen? It didn't happen, yeah. And I was like, huh.

So actually, I was at 9-11. I mean, I watched it since I was four. I was there, physically there. Allegedly. There's no doubt in my mind. Okay. But I didn't want to interrupt what he had to say. So I let him talk for five minutes, six minutes, seven minutes. And again, you're there for a while, so you're not in a rush to jump in and argue. And then I shared that I was there.

And I think because I had been willing to listen to him, he was willing to listen to me. And I don't know if he changed his mind. He certainly didn't change my mind, but it was actually a pretty cool conversation to kind of get into each other's mind. Well, I think you connect on a different level.

not on the level of like the conspiracy, but on the level of basic humanity. Yes. Like that's where you really connect on. And then it's almost becomes interesting and fun that you can exchange ideas, even crazy ideas, out there ideas and kind of play with them. Yeah. We humans are good at that. Yeah, exactly. I like the term play with them because what you're not trying to do is shut the conversation down. Right.

You're also not trying to... Talk down on me. Yeah, exactly. Like, let me just be nice while I totally disagree with this person. You can do that for a few minutes. You can't do that for two hours. And there's something about food that completely... I don't know. It must be evolutionary. It makes us vulnerable in a way.

That even just standing there for a prolonged period of time doesn't. There's something about, you know, like when the animals gather to the water or whatever. Yeah, right. Like this kind of experience where you're just like, all right, let's just acknowledge together that we need sustenance. Yeah. And somehow that kind of,

grounds us to like, we're just a bunch of descendants of apes here, just kind of like grateful to be alive, frankly, and grateful to be consuming this thing which keeps us alive.

And in that context, you can talk about all kinds of stuff. You can discuss flat earth and enjoy it. Absolutely. In fact, one of my favorite things to do is you do like a Jeffersonian style dinner. Let's say five or six people. Sometimes people will break off into individual conversations. That's actually when things break down. Mm-hmm.

So that's when you kind of go back to small talk. Like, oh, I'm stuck next to this guy. I'm just going to do a little small talk. What you need to do to really create a great conversation is one conversation at the table. And that's where, you know, there'll be some simple questions that I'll say. I'll say, you know, what's your middle name? And you'll be amazed at the stories you get from that. But it's about creating vulnerability. So they're like, oh, no one's ever asked me that before. So then they become vulnerable.

And then something as simple as what's the most fun thing you've done recently and what is the most fun thing you're looking forward to. And I have gotten into, with those prompts, I've gotten into hours-long discussions on God. I've gotten into hours-long discussions on love. I've gotten into hours-long discussions on anger. It's actually amazing when people are just...

asked a question like what's the most fun thing you've done lately well why would anger come up well actually they're they're in a vulnerable place so it'll just kind of come out of them so you get to see this you get to see this at the kitchen and you said boulder denver chicago yeah and we're going to open in austin in austin that's what i saw when when in october is the goal in october is the goal well i mean speaking of characters and human beings austin is fascinating i've um i forget how long ago and a couple months ago i was just uh sitting at a bar and

The two people were talking, and they were talking about Marxism, and it turns out that they're anarcho-communists, which is a thing, and I got into this conversation. Are communists the ones that like drugs? That's a good question to ask. I think I know some of those. Okay.

Anyway, they were beautiful people. I think they're local from Austin. I don't know the depth of their personal experience of the different kinds of communist-like systems, but it was fascinating to listen to and then get to know them and the humanity, the weirdness, like the characters. It's just, I mean, I love it. One of the reasons I really love Austin, I decided to be here is just the fact

the cliche thing of keep Austin weird. I mean, there's a lot of weird characters. I love it. I think that I've talked to a lot of Austinites who've been here forever and I'm like, man, you got to hold us accountable. We got to keep this place weird. A hundred percent, which makes the restaurant seem great because you have all these characters come in. It's great. So I look forward to that. But you were saying like, you get to see humans in real life interact. That's one of the beautiful things over food.

In the book you write, Picasso once said, "The meaning of life is to find your gift. "The purpose of life is to give it away." Then you wrote that you believe food is a gift we give ourselves three times a day. Can you explain that? The gift nature of it? - Yeah, it's actually, I think it's one of my most powerful life lessons is we have to eat. So it's not like you have a choice. You have to eat.

And so what I choose to do is I choose to make it a gift to myself for each meal. And most of the time, the best gift is with friends, with family. So we'll have to cook some scrambled eggs in the morning with my daughter or we'll have dinner with our family. To me, it's a gift we give ourselves daily.

Three times a day, you know, at least, but for the most part, three times a day. Let's make it a good one. What makes it a good one to you? Like what aspect makes it a good one? Well, first, definitely eating with people. So that makes it a good one. So eating in a restaurant, it doesn't have to be my restaurant, we have the energy of people around you.

Energy of the town. People you don't know creates a little bit of a vibe. You mentioned the watering hole analogy, the animals sipping at the water. But there's an energy to that because they're also looking around going,

Am I just about to be eaten? So they're all in it together, but we need to have water, but there's also a little bit of tension as well in the background. And I think that's what restaurants do. It's a very, very subtle version of that. You're in a room with strangers. Yeah.

And you're, yeah, you're a little cluster. Okay, fine. You guys are connected in it. Yeah. But you're in a room of strangers and it's just something that adds that energy to the meal. Yeah. You're a little bit wondering, like, what does everyone else think about our little cluster? Right. Like, are we too loud? Or just...

You also just, people are random, so something random could happen. And also, depending on your personality, if you're an extrovert, maybe you want to show off to the other clusters. Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Totally right. I mean, you know, look at the cowboy hat. I mean, actually, I'll take my hat off when I want to have a quiet meal and I can leave my hat on when I'm... So you're aware of the lot of the hat. I'm aware of the effect it has. Yeah, absolutely. Okay.

everyone turns and then it's back to the watering hole because when you wear a cowboy hat you just might actually not yeah i'm like they're gonna come they're gonna get me first at noon i love it i gotta tell the story so this is a talk to the the the craziness of being of being in the restaurant world where you know you're sitting at a table and anything can happen in the restaurant so there's one time i was like 15 years ago the um

This guy comes up to us and says he'd like to propose to his wife, his girlfriend. And so we said, okay, cool. We've done this before. We'll make sure it's all set up. 6 p.m. kind of reservation. So she shows up and we...

We give her a glass of champagne and just said, yeah. We obviously didn't want to spoil the surprise, so we're just doing it the weekend. But then he doesn't arrive. And then we're like, oh, man. Now we're like, don't leave. Can we get you another glass of champagne? We're doing everything we can. The guy was obviously earnest earlier, but just because he's stuck in traffic or whatever. And coming through the back door of the restaurant, which is you're not allowed to come through the back door of the restaurant.

a marching band from the school, the university, like, comes through the restaurant, you know, full-on brass band and the whole thing. And, you know, he gets down and he proposes. And it's beautiful, sure, but it's also like, man, this is chaos. This is insane. Yeah.

And we would never have said yes to this if he'd actually told us what he was going to do. Well, sometimes in life you have to do it and apologize. You do it and apologize. But that toast to that kind of what's the crazy thing that could happen? It's subtle, but it's still there. So in 2004, you opened The Kitchen. It's an American bistro restaurant. What was it like? What's it like running a restaurant? The good, the bad, and the ugly. What's the easy, what's the fun, and what's the hard? I think the thing that I...

absolutely love about running the restaurant not eating it but running the restaurant is the the tangible reaction from from people and uh um you you know you also kind of know when you screwed it up and you also know when you got it right so even it's kind of a weird way to say this but even if the customer's unhappy you know whether you got it right or wrong

It's not just about the food you're making, but it's about the person's psychological state. And you'll do something that you know that was not well. And their psychological state is they're just in a very happy place and they love it. And you're like, huh, interesting. That's not how I would have reacted to that dish. And then the other way around, you're like, no, I got that right. And that person is just really unhappy today. Yeah, and it's so hard to read humans because you have to –

If you got it right, it can look a million different ways depending on the emotional rollercoaster that human is living through. Like I've been some very low points and I've gone to like a restaurant alone and just sitting there and be truly happy was just the Zen aspect of it. And it was just a great, like a great steak or something like this. And maybe to other people around me would look like I'm very unhappy just because I'm

Within myself. Struggling with your day. Yeah, within myself. But I'm truly happy within that struggle. So, yeah, it's interesting. But you can kind of tell. Yeah, you can tell. And you mentioned being at the bar. One of the most gifted bartenders really understand that.

You know, it goes beyond, but what's also great about a restaurant, it goes beyond the one-time experience that you walk in and have that experience, is the good bartenders, they remember you. Oh, you were in a few months ago and...

This is kind of your thing. You might need a little time. And other people will come in and they want a conversation. Or other people come in and they're going through a divorce and they just want to be sad for a moment, have a scotch. And it's amazing what you learn in the restaurant world to just be

connected to humanity. Yeah. What is that about bars? That's a different experience. You said the table, the communal. The table is when you connect with people, learn about each other,

But bars, you can sometimes do that. You can talk left and right, but you have the freedom to always break free. You can say, oh, okay, great, I'm going to go back to my meal. It's kind of like a friend you can turn on and off at any time because the bartender knows that. They're trained. If you want attention, I'm going to give it to you. If you don't, I'm going to stay away. If you want to be chatty, I'm going to be chatty. If you want to be...

- Completely in your head, I'll leave you in your head. - But there's also strangers kind of next to you that you kind of, there's a feeling with a bar that you're kind of alone together. - Yeah, and you can reach out, you can add some conversation, or you can choose not to. - And you can exit quickly. - You can exit, exactly, it's a really good exit. So bars are wonderful, and I love going to a bar by myself after work. I might have a scotch, might not even have alcohol, just have something.

And I just, maybe I'll have a snack or something before dinner because I'm going to go home and have dinner with the family. And that 20 minutes is just an amazing state change from daytime to nighttime. If I went straight home, I'm like still in my head and I'm just trying to get grounded. And I'm just, I'm not as pleasant of a person.

So that's another powerful use of a bar. It's just like a transition time. Well, I mean, it would be remiss not to mention the other use of the bar, which is like when you go through some shit in life and you just go. I mean, that's sort of the, it's the cliche thing. I've been somewhere. Exactly. But like the bar makes the melancholy somehow like,

rich and beautiful and you feel heard in the silence. Yes, you feel heard. Like I said earlier, people going through a divorce, they don't know where else to go. These are mostly men. Sometimes women will do it, but mostly men will do this and women have other ways of processing it. But they just want a place to be sad. They want a place where they could feel

comfortable talking about it. They're certainly not gonna go into too much detail, but they just wanna say something and the bartender is there for them. - Yeah, you don't know where to go. - You don't know where to go, exactly. - The bar, yeah, you're right. For men especially, it's a place to just go and just, I don't know, what is that? What is that? - I'll be honest, I still do it myself where if I'm at home,

and I don't have a work thing that I got to deal with, and I don't have kids, and I don't have my wife or my family around, I don't often cook for myself. I actually love going to a bar by myself. I have a glass of red wine, and I usually don't have a starter, appetizer, just like a main meal. And I just take in the energy of the space. If it's my restaurant or someone else's restaurant, I just take in the energy.

And it's so much better than being home and turning the TV on. No, no, no. I want to be out in the restaurant. I want to feel the energy of the town. The other thing that restaurants teach me is they're the front lines of...

The economy, or what's a better word for it? It's like the front lines of the energy of how things are going. Like of a people's in general. Like it doesn't necessarily mean this part of town, but it could be the entire society. Yeah, exactly. So you can go into a restaurant and I'll use a simple example. And why is the restaurant empty? Ah, there's a football game going on. And there's such a large number of people want to watch that game.

that the restaurant is quiet or it might be like another like world series or something and you're like wow that's so interesting you can actually watch in america of course american humanity you can watch them move in their patterns just by being in the restaurant yeah yeah and then another time you might be in a restaurant and it's just jamming and it's a monday night and you're like

What is the energy that created this on a Monday night and maybe even on a cold February Monday night? What is it? And sometimes you can't find out, but you can feel it. And it's my front lines of humanity that I also just really love about the restaurants. Yeah, it could be empty, it could be full, empty bars, empty.

There's a magic to those too. Yeah. You could still feel that energy. I don't know. I actually prefer empty bars than full ones. It's just you and the bartender. I mean, some of my greatest experience is just the quiet bar. Totally. It's just me and the bartender and they're doing their thing. And they've seen so many... I've almost like through osmosis somehow feel the stories that that bartender has seen, has felt, has heard. Yeah. And all that kind of stuff. I mean, that it's not to be sort of...

like spiritual about it but it seems like it's in the walls or something like there's the history is felt and some of these bars are actually very old and it's wonderful like you know there are many in Europe like this but there's a couple in New York City a few hundred years old and you and they're still operating non-stop for that long and man you feel it yeah

Let me ask you some questions about ingredients. What's your favorite ingredient to cook with? For me, cooking is an art, right? So it'd be like asking me what's my favorite paint color to use. It's not that there isn't one. It's more like when there is one, it really is one. You know, like there's peaches on the cover of this cookbook. Those peaches, those were in August, Colorado peaches.

It just doesn't get any better than that. On that day, at that moment, that was the best ingredient. But that only lasts for a week. And then they don't taste so great. Yeah. But damn, are they so good in that moment. And you just can't stop wanting to use that ingredient. They look really good. They're so good. What's your favorite fruit? I love veggies and fruit. What's your favorite fruit? I love a smoothie bowl. So I do sort of berries, raspberries.

But I use fruit more in the form of a smoothie bowl than I eat fruit that often. I like an apple or a banana, but for the most part, I prefer the blended. Not me. I love the way you casually said it like an apple. A good apple is pretty great. For me, it's a problem, I think. Probably cherry's number one.

Probably, what are they called? Granny Smith apples, number two. Oh, yeah, those are great. But try it sometime, come to Colorado in August, and when you try those peaches, it is like heaven has arrived in your mouth. It is so ridiculously good. But just for a week in August. Just for a week. You can't have it all year long. Okay, perfect.

What about veggies? You wrote that Chef Hugo that you worked with, the co-founder of The Kitchen With, taught you the power of a good vegetable. What's the power of a good vegetable? So I've trained in New York as a French chef, but it wasn't very much ingredients focused. It wasn't very much sourcing focused. He came from the River Cafe in London, which was one of the OGs of the farm-to-table and still going strong today.

And he taught me the value of getting to know farmers and getting to know vegetables from that farm versus vegetables from that farm. And they're actually different. Soil's a little different. The way they grow it, a little different. It's the opposite of the industrial machine where everything needs to look exactly the same. And sometimes you'll get carrots that are kind of ugly and deformed, but there's much sweeter than the carrots you'd get for other purposes. So you'd make a carrot puree out of that

And then you take carrots that are more typical in shape and size. You might roast them for dinner. So it's the appreciation for vegetables in general. I probably would say carrots is my favorite just because that was an example of one where I've really had to learn how to use the different types of carrots that come from all of our farms.

And it's fun. It's a fun ingredient. If you just went to the Whole Foods or just went to a grocery store and you just got exactly the same carrot every time, less fun. But go to a farmer's market and see what you get. And you'll see they're quite different. Yeah, carrot for me is probably number one. I have rigorous detailed rankings for fruit and veggies. That's amazing. We'll get into it. Well, I am the kind of person that would have like a spreadsheet for that. That's great.

But I'm mostly just making fun of myself. But I do love carrots. I wish they weren't so full of carbs. Yeah, I'm just not anti-carbs. You know, I think the... Anti-carb, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think they play a role. You know, like I have a great friend who's an amazing doctor and he did some tests for me and everything and it turns out I have a gluten allergy. And I was like, okay. So what that means is I shouldn't eat gluten. He's like, yeah. I was like, okay, but...

I also have hay fever, and that means I should not go out into nature. So I was like, nah, I think I'm going to go out into nature. And maybe what I'll do on bread and pastas, like the true carbs, I'll just have it when it's really good. Because when it's really good,

it's really good, and you don't want to miss that. Most of the time, okay, find some crummy bread, whatever, I can skip that part. But I find all of these diets are like, no, none of this, or super this, super that. I wonder if they're just like, people are just looking for something to hang on to. But these diets have been around forever, and if they worked, then we would know that. Yeah, I think one of the biggest problems with diets is,

is it adds stress when you do have that perfect bowl of pasta. If you have categorized yourself as a low-carb eating person, you might be very stressed about enjoying this thing when you should just let go. Let go. This is your cheat day or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And I've heard that. And actually, I have friends who do that, their cheat day. And I say to them, I'm only going to hang out with you on your cheat day because that's when you're actually fun. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I would say, like, for me, there's things that make me feel really good. But they're not rules. They're not... They're, like, go-to favorites.

in terms of diet and so on. For example, I've mostly been eating once a day. Oh, wow. For the longest time. But that's not a rule. It's completely flexible. And I've mostly been eating very low carb. Yeah, but you must be eating a lot of food in that one meal. Yeah, because it's usually very meat-heavy. It's not like portions are that big. Sure.

Your body needs food. Yeah, body needs food. So you're talking about like 2000 calories. What you find out is like that dinner is like the most social time of the day. Yeah. I mean, I have kids in the morning. So if you have kids, it's for sure a morning experience. But if you don't, then you're right. Yeah. But like you said, I deviate.

I'm more afraid of missing the perfect dessert, the perfect breakfast, the perfect bowl of pasta, pizza, all that kind of stuff. I don't think of it as a cheat day. I think it's... Well, if you're eating one meal a day, you can eat whatever you like. Well, I want to make clear that it's not one meal a day always, and I'm like this very strict thing. Right.

You always have to be open to the experience, to the new experience. Otherwise, you do miss out. Just like you said, hay fever. I think if you want to be really safe, you should never leave your home. Yes. We learned during COVID, if you wrap yourself in cotton wool in your basement, you're not going to die from COVID. You might die from a lot of other things, pure misery. Yeah.

Well, you might live forever. Right, we don't know. But it certainly doesn't maximize the joy of whatever makes life worth living. It doesn't maximize that. Yeah, exactly. You wrote in a book that Anthony Bourdain was one of your heroes. Can you speak to what inspired you about him? Yeah, he wrote a book called Kitchen Confidential in the 90s. I was in cooking school at the time. It was so...

He romanticized the cooking in the restaurant so well. His writing is great.

He kind of got me into like, oh, that's cool. I want to do that. It was cool. So I got into cooking school, got more engaged in it. And I had this FOMO feeling of I wanted to experience what it's like to be in the back. When you're cooking school, you are in the back. They had a restaurant. We would serve people. But it's not the same thing as actually being in a restaurant.

like a real restaurant. It's like you're in a submarine with your teammates and you got to win tonight. Like it's a real, it's a real energy. And so that was a big inspiration. I followed him over. He was so sad that he chose to end his life. But I also had met with him a few times, not like one-on-one over dinner or anything, but just like met with him and I just felt his love for

for food and truly just love for food. - He gave the advice of don't be afraid, get excited and cook with love. - Yeah, I've used that phrase, especially the cook with love one. I mean, one of the things about which we talked about this earlier where you get quick tangible feedback from a customer when you're in the restaurant. I know when I didn't put love into that dish.

I know when one of my line cooks did not put love into that part of the dish. I know when that expert person did not put love into double-checking the dish before putting it on the table. You just know. And cook with love is when you do it for your family. Oh, actually, especially when you do it for your family, the food doesn't have to be perfect.

But you're cooking with love. That's why you love scrambled eggs. I do that. That's in the book, Kimball's Scrambled Eggs. Yes. You promised to make me scrambled eggs and I'm going to hold you to it. That's great. A cooking school you mentioned, the French Culinary Institute. I heard it was a bit of a rough experience in parts. I would call it, it's not a rough experience in that... In a beautiful way. Yeah, exactly. It's not like I'm a victim of it. It's...

It's rough in that they intentionally make it rough. So the school costs the same price as Harvard to go to. You show up, you have to, it's an 18 month program. You are allowed to drop out at any time. You don't get your money back. 25 people started, six people graduated.

And the people who graduated, I graduated, but man, there were times where I'm like, I can't handle this. I mean, I would literally say to my friends, oh, I got to go to cooking school. I'm going to go get screamed at for the next six or seven hours. Yeah. And I had this little French chef who was my nemesis. Does he still live in your head somewhere? He still lives in my head. Exactly. He's only nuts. He's like five foot two or something. And I remember him screaming so much.

at me, he's like the short guy, I'm 6'5", the spittle would land on my face. Nice. And I would just have to sit there, or stand there, and take it. It was a very humbling experience. I did learn, though, that it's intentionally rough, so it took a little bit of the

edge of it one day when that same chef had come over to me and said move over a little bit and i moved over and he took my carrots whatever and started just chopping everything it's like perfectly and then he said again you can come back and then he went over to someone else and started screaming at them saying that look even kimball can do this and you can't do this and i was like

this whole thing's like a psycho game. So it did take the edge off when I realized there was, like the guy was intentionally trying to break you down. And they do this apparently in the army. I've not been to the army, but they need to break you down. Everything you know is worthless so that then we can teach you and you can come out of it with what actually we want you to know. Are there specific technical lessons you remember you learned from that?

sort of how to cut carrots or how to approach food, how to prepare food, how to think about food, how to carry yourself in the kitchen, you know. All of those things. I think that the, one of the most beautiful lessons was actually scrambled eggs. So there's different layers of chefs. So they're all master chefs. They're all very well-known people and everything, but

But Alain Soltner was one of the chief, like main, main guys. And he just passed away. Master chef. And everything kind of stopped when he would show up in the kitchen. And he would teach very few things. And all of the other chefs who were, you know, the same ones that were screaming at us, just like, it was like the Red Sea partying. Like they have total respect for this human and he can do whatever he wants.

And one of the things he wanted to teach was how do you make an omelet, a French omelet. And it's really fundamentally the same thing. It's a soft scrambled egg that you fold. And the love that he put into the time with us, and of course he's a legend, there were moments like that where I'm like, wow, okay.

He also, just like the other chefs, didn't have any concern berating anyone. So he berated our master chefs. Nice. Saying, I don't trust these people to teach you how to make scrambled eggs. So I'm going to do it instead. What, I mean, can you speak to that? Because, you know, a lot of people hearing this would be like, scrambled eggs? Like, why do you need to be a master chef to really make scrambled eggs? Well, first of all,

for me, and it's a learning journey forever. So I make scrambled eggs, I mean, I've made it 10,000 times or more or whatever. - So it's like Jero dreams of sushi, Kimball dreams of scrambled eggs? - Pretty much. So I will wake up and be held accountable by my kids to make scrambled eggs. So this happens every morning. And I know all the steps

muscle memory level kind of steps. I don't know how much, well, I know. And then I'll cook it and it's very meditative for me because you have to focus. So most scrambled eggs, soft scrambled egg recipes are

10, 15 minutes to get them to that perfect softness. And the recipe that I got from Chef Alain was something that you do in 90 seconds. But it requires total focus. Like if you look up for a second, you're going to miss the perfect moment. We have to stop.

and get those eggs out of the pan because once the eggs will keep cooking. And so it's this meditation and it's sometimes you hit it like perfectly.

But most times, it could have been a little softer, could have been a little firmer, could have been a little bit more salt, could have been a little bit more pepper. And so what's really fun about the morning is my kids are kind of into it. So they're sort of like we critique the eggs every morning. Do they have a rating system? It's more like...

And again, it also comes back to how people feel, right? So my kids can be in a bad mood and they can be grumpy. Or it's like a Michelin star system. No, no. It's more like, oh, yeah, I like my eggs a little more gooier. Or yesterday it was this way, but a little bit more salt, a little less salt. Salt is usually the one that is... Because...

Not all salts are equal. So if you are used to working with a certain kind of salt and then you just are forced for some reason to run out of salt to use some other salt, you actually don't know how to use it. You really want to have the same salt all the time. They have a page on salt in the book, which is fascinating. Salt is...

You've got to get to know your salt. You've got to love your salt. And you've got to use it over and over and over again. And it will teach you how to use that salt. Your own palate will tell you how salty you like things. But if you change it up and you mix up a whole bunch of salt, you've now multiplied your learning path. So for me, my favorite salt is kosher salt. And I like to use that.

All the time. And if I ever change it, I might sprinkle a little bit of Molden Salt, which is a crunchy, sort of a flaky salt. But it's more for that when you're actually eating. For the texture. It gives you texture as well as salt, exactly. You wouldn't use it on scrambled eggs. But if you switch out your salts, it's a different weapon. Yeah, yeah. You need to learn it. I like how usually there's wine connoisseurs who,

You're saying, going back to sort of farm to table, when you're talking about carrots, in that same rigor and nuance, you have to consider the different farms involved for the carrots. In that same way, you have to consider the different salts. Yeah. And also not even, or kosher salts are the same. It's the particular salt that you like.

Get to know it. Get in a relationship with it. It's like great. You will learn so much. In terms of the measurement, the proportion, the amount of salt you put in, are you doing that –

Like exactly or are you doing it by feel? So it's by feel and that's where you get the relationship. So in fact, I have a, in the cookbook, I have QR codes that people can scan because what I struggle with recipes is they don't teach technique, right? They can describe the technique, but they don't teach the technique because it's a technique, it's not a recipe. And so one of the lessons is how do you salt a steak? And the answer is not here's a teaspoon and you do it this way,

The answer is use kosher salt so you can see with your eyes, because they're little flakes, how much salt is on your steak, and then cook it, and then taste it. Do you think you need more or you need less? Okay, now next time, put a little more on it because you can see it.

And it's about learning the fact that you want to be able to see how much salt is on the steak so that you can then train yourself for the future of how much salt you want on your steak. Yeah, but then the steak and the salt kind of dance together. It depends on where the steak came from. That's true. That's true. All the thickness of the steak, that'll make a difference. But for the most part, if you...

If you're able to see it, versus table salt, for example, that just disappears. You just can't see what you're putting on your steak. You can't really learn as a result. I think you talk about roast chickens where your love of food began. What about steak? I love a good steak. It's so great. So in the French school...

You add sauces and all this kind of stuff. And in boulders, when you realize there's a beauty to the basic ingredient. Simplicity, yeah. Like a good New York strip from a good rancher. There's a lot of discussion, controversy on how cattle should be raised. And we have a very different approach, which is we know how our cattle are raised. We go to the farm.

we get to know the rancher. And sometimes you do want to have them be finished on, like they'll be grass-fed for the most part, but then there's some sort of cool recipe of food you're giving them that will then make them taste better. And sometimes it is actually pretty good to have 100% grass-fed. I've had some amazing ranchers that show me that the flavor is all there. For the average person that might go to Whole Foods or a grocery store,

I think the simplicity of a good steak is,

So it is important to get good sourcing, but also it's just good. What's your favorite cut of meat? It's New York strip, probably New York strip for me. Yeah, New York strip. Yeah. I like the fact that it's lean, but if you want the fat, you can dive into that little strip of fat or you can leave it alone because you don't want it that night. And it's also a great steak for adding something. Like if you want to...

You could either do a pepper sauce or you could do a lot of ground pepper, which gives it a peppery. It's not sauce, but it's a peppery steak. It's a really good steak for a canvas for other things. But the basic ingredients you're playing with is salt and pepper. Yeah, pretty much. Actually, I will say there's another one, garlic.

This is my favorite recipe for a steak is you season it, both sides, salt and pepper. You saute it in a little olive oil, barely anything. And you're getting a nice crisp, like a golden dark, golden brown on both sides. The other trick with cooking a steak is don't touch it. You just put one side. When you're ready to turn it, turn it around. Don't touch it any other time. But at the end...

You take a dab of butter and you crush a clove of garlic. You don't even chop it. You just crush the clove and you put the two of them in the pan and you just roll the steak around in the garlic butter. I think that's the one. Bold move, Kimbo. Bold move. What do you, since you're in Austin quite a bit, opening a restaurant here, what do you think about barbecue? It's kind of the Texas way. Yeah.

Well, I would say there's an Austin way, which is... There's an Austin way. And actually, even Austin would say there's a suburb of Austin way. I think that actually the adventure of food is wonderful. I would absolutely say that Austin is one of the great food cities of America, and barbecue is one of its gifts that it gives the city. But you go to one and the other, and you'll have a different approach. And that's the part I love, is

is where there's a real celebration of the artisan. So you might go to one, and they have a style that they love, and they've been doing it for years. And then you'll go to another, and they have a style that they love, and they've been doing it for years. And it's not – there's still barbecue, but they're actually different. And it's really beautiful to see that. And that's – I think that's what food culture is. Like it just builds up over time.

by people who love this style of cooking. Well, I especially love the communal, like how they structure restaurants usually, or I don't even want to call it a restaurant because it doesn't feel like a restaurant. It feels like a tavern or some sort, like Terry Black's is like that. Yeah, they also have like paper towels. Yeah. As messy as you like. And it's a whole roll of paper towels. They don't even give you a napkin. They know what you're getting into. Yeah. And there's just wood everywhere and it's kind of,

has this feel like this place has been around forever it's not changing i know it's the 21st century with the internet and all this kind of yeah nonsense that you people are building but really this is all about the same yes it's been the same for generations we're doing it the same that kind of feel like if you want to escape the world in that way and then truly connect with people one of the other things that will happen in a town like austin is there'll be a barbecue joint that is just legendary right and then

Out of that will come someone who wants to do their own barbecue joint, and they'll take the learning from that barbecue joint. They'll open up a new one, but it won't be the same as the other barbecue joint. Part of it is like, dude, don't just do the same thing. Do something. What do you have to say? But also part of it is if you're in the world of food as an art form, and you want to go open up another barbecue joint,

You kind of want to prove yourself. Like, I deserve to have a barbecue joint in this town. I know this is one of the holy grails of barbecue. And people will follow you like they're following a musician or they're following an artist, and they are excited to

to see what your version is and how well you can pull it off. It's like, it's actually, that's what I love. That's what I mean by like a city with a food culture that Austin has that. There's also like a legend to certain places. Certain places are more than just the food they create. It's like, that could be a burden. They have to like live up to the legendary nature of the name. Our restaurant in Boulder, the kitchen is 20 years old. We're very well known, very well respected. Yeah.

And we do have to live up to the name. I think that our restaurant lives up to its name in not just the food. It's like you walk in and you feel the restaurant. And that is also...

It's something we've just done naturally. The space is a 120-year-old building. It used to be a brothel. It was a bookstore. Like storied history. That's an interesting pivot. Literally, this was a mining town, right? So back in the 1800s, this was built late 1800s. That sort of brothels, that was a thing. And so there's an actual tunnel underneath.

in the basement that goes to the local hotel that would be used for going back and forth between the hotel and the brothel without people knowing. And the tunnel is now concreted up. But you can go about 20, 30 feet into the tunnel.

But you go into the space and it's actually an old space, so you feel like it's been there forever. Yeah. In 2010, you had a life-threatening accident that changed the way you see life, the world, also the way you see food and cooking. Can you tell me the story of it? Yeah. So 2010, I was 37. I had opened the restaurant,

in 2004, and I had loved the restaurant world, loved it. But I didn't really want to grow a restaurant company. That wasn't my goal. And so I went back into technology, and I had gone from something that I love to something that I like. For me, it was like chewing sawdust every day. I just couldn't believe that I had

gone from that had changed my life, had gone back into technology. And now I do do work in technology and I do love it, but I found a better relationship with it. But I was really, really unhappy. From the outside, I was a sort of CEO of a startup, but from the inside, I was just very unhappy.

And I was in Jackson Hole, and I was doing these very aggressive snowboard runs. And I'm, at the time, a pretty good aggressive snowboarder. And I remember saying to myself, look, I've got kids. I need to chill on this. The next day was Valentine's Day. The next day, tomorrow's Valentine's Day. I'm just going to have a nice day with the family and my wife at the time. And we went to a children's run to do the inner tube run.

and the tubes are small, but everyone uses the same tube. So I'm 6'5", and my kids are 4 years old, and everyone uses the same size tube. It should have been a message to me not to get on this thing, but I went and got on it, and on the first run, and I went down, and you're going super fast, 35 miles an hour, and a tube hit the braking mats, and it stopped. The tube just stopped where it was, just threw me,

I was, my head was facing downhill. So that's created the wrong center of gravity. So instead of breaking, it just threw me. I landed on my head. My head went into my chest, like compression into my chest, like that. I ruptured my spine at C6 and C7. And in like the blink of a second, I was paralyzed. I was like, like, like what? You know, just like.

impossible to comprehend. And they take me, they put this big thing on my, like halo on my head and they take me to the hospital, which was more of a medical clinic. And I'm just like, what is going on here? Do you remember your thoughts from the moment it happened to like the way to get to, got to the hospital? I remember being, so this is one of the things that actually the doctor said caused the most damage was, um,

I was thrown from the tube and I heard this big crunch sound in my body. And I knew that I was hurt. But I didn't feel any pain. That's also, why wouldn't you feel pain? Because you don't have paralyzed, you don't feel pain. And I'm face down on the snow. And the snow is burning my face because you can't do that. You need something. And I found a way to turn myself around so that...

my face wouldn't be on the ground, but I knew I couldn't move. And that, they said, actually caused more damage than, well, obviously the accident created the opening, but once you move your body, the blood goes into the spinal column at a faster rate, and that is what caused my paralysis. But I remember that, and I remember getting into the ambulance. Did you think you were going to die?

at that, like in those seconds, minutes? - It was a different feeling of death. It was more of a, what is going on here? Like I just was, it was more, like I can't make sense of what's going on. It was a moment where I got to the hospital and they did this MRI and the doctor comes up to me and says, look, we've done this MRI and

So now I'm in the hospital and I can't move. But I also don't feel any pain. So I'm like, it's very confusing. Your body looks like you can move it. See how I'm moving my hand? It looks like you can do that. And then it just doesn't move. There's no feedback loop that it's not moving. Your brain even thinks it's moving, but it's not moving.

It's like the worst, like most terrifying thing. So the doctor says, look, the way you broke your neck was really at a zero degree angle. That is so rare. But as a result, there is no twisting of the spine. We think that we can get the blood out of your spinal column and you should get some or maybe all of your movement back. And I was like, oh, okay, I think I'm going to be fine. I guess I'm going to be fine. And then I realized I had...

tears just streaming down the side of my face. And I was like, whoa, man, I have no idea what's going on. So this kind of intense state of confusion, I wonder if it's like a weird psychological defense mechanism of like taking you away from the obvious possibility of death. Yeah, it was for sure all of the defenses were up. I don't know how else to describe it, but there was denial, there was...

there was this curiosity of like, why is there no pain? Like that's, when they did actually repair me and fix me, it was three days later, the pain was indescribable how much pain I was in. But there was no pain for three days. The human body is fascinating. Man. So they were able. Yeah, so they did the surgery, but I had this very clear voice in my head saying,

that I've kind of determined that it's God. I'm not religious, but I don't know how else to describe the voice. And his voice was very clear. You're going to work with kids and food. Okay, where did that come from? I'm like tech CEO. I have a restaurant. And we were working with some kids in schools with like some, you know, helping a local nonprofit. And he's like, no, you're just going to work on kids and food. Awesome.

my good friend Antonio and my brother were in the hospital and I was like, I'm gonna work on kids and food. 'Cause they're like, he's crazy, he lost his mind. Not that they were, no one was arguing with me, but I was like, I'm just going to do that, I need to say it out loud. And I remember resigning from my job as the CEO from the hospital and that was it. It was just clear, it was a clear voice.

Wasn't for a moment, wasn't like a flash of light or anything. It was probably two weeks of clear voice. Of clarity. Clarity. Exactly, clarity. No monkey brain, nothing. No monkey brain, just clarity. So you're not a religious person, but you do call it the voice of God. Who is that God, do you think? Like, who is that? Where did that come from? Well, I've done ayahuasca and I've...

spoken to what they call Mother Aya, which is another version of God. It's a divine presence. Maybe I think it's a better way to say it. I've also had this debate in my head, like, maybe it's just me. I'm talking to me. And it's my peaceful, more kinder, less caught up in the emotion of the day version of me. Maybe it's me.

Okay, maybe it is, but it's there. But who are you? How deep does it go? What does you mean? You could be, you know, first of all, like the depth of what the human mind even is, is a gigantic mystery. Consciousness, all of it. Yeah. Who are you? It's like, yeah, maybe it is you, but then maybe in order to build you, we need to build the universe. Yeah. And the entire, like you are actually...

a fundamentally a part of this whole human society. So the piece, the pieces of humans that you've interacted with are all within you. And then maybe the history of the humans that came before also in there. And maybe the entirety of life on earth is also in there and whatever the,

whatever brought life about on earth is in there somewhere. So that's all you. Yeah, all of the, which is really true. Evolution literally is true that we all are, the photons from the sun came in. You're part fish. We all came from that. I think this one, you know, so one of the things I do is meditate. And this was, I've been meditating for many, many years. And the way I meditate is I sit and I,

listen to my thoughts and I simply just do that for 15 to 20 minutes and it just calms the nervous system and I might breathe and just be

breathe through because it's been a stressful day and it's just a beautiful way to kind of do it around. I remember I said I used to do a scotch at the bar after work. Now I go meditate for instance. A little bit better for my health. But meditation I was taught was, Sam Harris actually taught me this, was not so much just about watching your thoughts but realizing that you're a watcher.

You're actually a watcher. You're not just like, who is the person watching that? That's you, actually. Your thoughts are floating through your mind, but you are the watcher. And I was like, oh, that's really interesting. Okay, so I'm going to learn that. I'm going to be the watcher. And what I learned was I'm watching these thoughts go by, and there's a consistent other presence. And I'm like, what is that consistent other presence? It's not a thought. That is not a...

It's not something I can kind of let it float away, and it doesn't even want to float away. It's just a consistent other presence that I can watch and feel. - So you are the watcher watching the feelings and thoughts, but there's also an other presence next to you almost. - Yes, yeah, that's how I feel. And it's a beautiful presence. It's not a presence that is trying to intervene. It's not a presence that is trying to tell you what to do.

It's just a beautiful presence. And that might be the thing, part of the thing you met when you took ayahuasca. I learned about Mother Aya where you have this experience of talking to... Actually, I would say the closest thing to breaking my neck, that feeling was ayahuasca. Can you go through that experience? Because I'm actually traveling to the Amazon jungle in a month. I'll probably do ayahuasca for the first time. Okay. So I need a preview. Unofficial instruction manual. Yeah, sure. So...

First of all, I think there are many different ways to do it, right? And I've done many, many different ways. There's a very Western medicine approach where you have doctors that look after you during the day, you know, put an eye mask on, you're on a futon, and you really are in a Western medicine setting. And it's, frankly, for me, has been the most powerful experience. I feel the most comfortable because I'm

part of Western medicine in my upbringing. The other extreme, but they're kind of in between, would be very, probably a Peruvian ceremonies where you're probably gonna go, very much about, you do it in a community, you do it with others, and you feel people go through their pain and their processing.

So I know the whole gamut, but the thing that I found most powerful about it, and profoundly powerful, I would say, first of all, it's non-recreational. So no one should do this for a good time. This is not a good time. This is a very... Almost traumatic, but in, again, a beautiful way. I was actually going to say that, but it's not traumatic. It's profound. So it's more like you don't have...

You really leave who you were before behind.

and then you become the person you will be afterwards. - And that's never an easy thing. - Yes, exactly. And sometimes what I recall was arguing with Brother Aya and saying, "No, I'm fine. "What are you talking about? "Leave me alone." - How did that work out? But before 2010,

the accident and the two transformational experiences you had, you were a very successful tech CEO. Maybe go back to the early days with Zip2. In 1994, you and Elon started Zip2. Tell me the story of that.

Yeah, so in 94, we actually did a road trip around the U.S. to brainstorm about what we wanted to do after college. What was the road trip like? That was awesome. So we went from Silicon Valley to Philadelphia. Nice. My brother's old, like a really cool, you know, it's one of those very old BMWs, not ones from the 60s or 70s. But the car didn't work. It would break down all the time. But we had a blast. You know, we just...

I remember going through Needles on the border of California and Arizona. It's a town called Needles. It's the hottest place in America. And the engine was not cooling, so we had to put the heat on. So we did the heat blasting.

to keep the engine cool and keep the windows down because you can't stand the heat in the car. But actually, the outside heat is hotter than the inside heat. So you're just in a furnace. You're driving through. Just sweating. It was that light even. I can't imagine doing that in the day. Yeah, it was wonderful. It took us a few weeks, I think three weeks maybe. First time across America? First road trip like that, yeah, for sure. But it was really not...

a road trip for tourist sites, we went to the weirdest places. And actually, I would say we didn't go to them. We broke down in the weirdest places. Because that's when we stopped. Yeah. Did you meet any interesting people? I remember we broke down in the badlands of South Dakota, about an hour from Rapid City. And that road is empty. And so we actually slept in the car because there was just no one around. There were no cell phones in those days.

And eventually a trucker picked us up. I was like, you guys are the dumbest kids on the planet. I was like 21 and he was maybe 22. But he was so nice to us and so kind to us and found us a mechanic in Rapid City and then found us a tow truck. And you find the most wonderful people when you're in a place of...

People do want to take care of other people. They help you. Yeah, they want to help. And especially when you're on a road trip. Because I've taken a road trip across the United States, and there's a part of people where they really love that. I think part of them wants to do that also, wants to kind of escape whatever the local, the struggles, just whatever the mundaneness, the struggle of life are.

A road trip is a kind of thing where you're like, you know what, I'm going to get away from it all. And I'm going to experience life in the full, the epic sort of Jack Kerouac way of seeing America. The people, not the tourist sites, just the humans. Yeah, exactly. This was not tourist related. We did, of course, one, we stopped at Mount Rushmore at night, which you can see nothing. Yeah, yeah.

We thought that was hilarious. You couldn't see Mount Rushmore. That's great. It was like, well, we physically were here. We took a photo of us. In the darkness. You could just say you went to the Grand Canyon too at night. And just visit different places when the car broke down. I love it. So yes, you took the road trip before finding Zip2.

Yeah, so I had an experience in college running a house painting business that for me was my first experience with success. It was very, very hard. It was a franchise where they teach students how to paint houses. But I was good at it. I built a team of 30 people after about two years. And so I was like, I had a taste of...

hey, I'm not unable to do this. In fact, my most vulnerable place I remember as an entrepreneur was I just loved the idea of Wall Street and finance. I was kind of allured by it.

This was in late 80s. I'm in high school and there was a lot of these books, Liar's Poker and others that came out. I was like, oh man, this is awesome. These people must be amazing. So I went to business school and I busted my ass to get like a kick-ass summer job. And I got a job in one of the main banks and it was in Toronto, but it was like the original Wall Street. And I was so disappointed with the people that I was around. I was just like, whoa, wow.

I totally misunderstood what the banking world is. It was a very large bank. I'm sure if I'd gone to a more aggressive one, maybe I would have had a better experience. When I say aggressive, meaning someone was paying attention. This was just people kind of showing up and not doing much. Actually, this is funny. This is great. So 1991, 1992 is one of those summers.

But the summer job was literally, you go to the, they print out the sales for all brokerage houses for the whole company. Like this pile of papers that's maybe four or five feet tall. And you have a pencil and you add things up using your pencil and a calculator. And I had known about Lotus 1-2-3 before.

Excel was coming out and I was like, hey guys, you know that there's a different way to do this. And they're like, don't talk to us. Just, this is just a job. Yeah. Go do it. Just use the pencil. So I went to the head of the database. I just asked, you know, those days you had the manila envelope where you can, you just write the name of the person that you want this to go to and it'll go to them. Mm-hmm.

It's like email, I guess, but there's no filter. There's no spam filter. There's no spam filter. So I sent a note. I wrote a nice letter to the database administrator who I didn't really know. And I said, would you be open to me saying hi and maybe I can get access to the file rather than print the damn thing out and use a pencil?

And she responded right away, and we hit it off. I mean, she was great. And so she's like, of course you can do that. I can't believe these guys are doing what they're doing. So for the first couple of weeks, so for the summer, I wrote code in Lotus 1-2-3 that would, it's going to sound crazy, but you type in the date range, you type in the geography, and you type in which part of the bank you care about,

And it will literally just create a new spreadsheet and it will just, the macro would print it out. It was like a magic trick for these guys. Incredible. No, no. It's like, it's astounding that that's, I mean, for me, I was like, guys, this is so obvious. And so I got all that done. And this job was supposed to take three or four months because it's really, you're doing this with a pencil. Yeah.

and now I'd created this macro that you could not just do it, you could tweak it and say, oh, I want this area of the world or this area of this month or that month compared to that month, all the normal things you could do with a spreadsheet. And the software was on a floppy disk. I was like, here's the software and just put it into your computer. All right, now open one, two, three, and

And it just pops up with a little box that type in your dates and, you know, the whole little, I code a little thing like that. And what I was astounded by was not so much that it was a magic trick. It was the lack of appreciation for innovation. They just looked at it. They were like, oh, that's nice. And I was like, you just, we're going to have someone spend hundreds of hours doing something

And now it's something you can do in a minute. Yeah. If that doesn't fuel you with excitement. Yeah. Like that doesn't move your needle. What the heck? And so I was really disappointed with, with the banking world. Anyway, so that, that was, but that was also fun. Such a good example though. Yeah. And then also see the possibility of where that goes. But then, so then I, I got back to business school and I,

I canceled all of my business classes I possibly could. I was actually in business school, so I couldn't cancel them all. All finance courses, I was like, I'm done with that industry. I'm not going back. So the vulnerable part for me was my whole family is full of entrepreneurs. And there was this franchise to do house painting. And I genuinely was afraid that I wouldn't be good at it. And I was like, wow, I really am afraid of failure. It's very easy to avoid entrepreneurship. But if your whole family is entrepreneurs...

and you go in and you aren't good, I was really afraid. - You're gonna have to face that failure every time you meet your family. - Yes. Our family are wonderful and everything, but pretty much everyone's an entrepreneur. And of course, not everyone's perfect, not everyone's doing it successfully all the time, but when you're young,

and you want to prove yourself, it really was putting my heart on my sleeve. I started the business in this part of Toronto, and for the first, you paint the houses in the summer, but you do all your sales before the summer, and all the way until April, I was just not succeeding, and I was like, oh, I'm like, oh my God, I'm just going to fail. And I remember that. It's like my whole nervous system was like, I'm a failure.

And I remember I had this general manager who, you know, he was like, Kimball, you seem like you know what you're doing. Why are you not making any sales? And so he actually went with me on a few sales calls and I was like, oh, he was great. You're doing this wrong. You're doing that wrong. You're doing this wrong. And changed those three things. And it was like a watershed moment. Just like,

All of a sudden, and I just followed the instructions of what this guy had told me. All of a sudden, every single sale I would make, I was like, I can't believe that I, it was really my lack of humility to learn from someone else. I was like, no, I'm going to prove that I can do this without your teachings. And I was going to fail.

So to you, that humility is essential for the entrepreneur, especially young. I would say if we have an openness to learning, which does require humility, you course correct, you help get other people to help you course correct. But it does start with humility because if you try and pretend you have all the answers, you don't.

So you went from that to founding Zip2. That was an interesting time in the history of tech. Yeah. I mean, what was it like? You mentioned the first people to look at a map, basically directions. Yeah, so mapping had been on the internet, but vector-based mapping had not. So that's the ability to zoom in or zoom out, and it's really data versus an image that comes across data.

And we went to this company called Navtech, my brother and I, and we just asked for the data. And this is Silicon Valley. They wrote us a one-page letter that we had to sign and said, here's all of our data. We own it. You don't own it. But you can use it on the internet. And if you ever make any money on it, you have to call us. That was it. And we're like, okay, that sounds great. And so we put it up on the internet. And back in those days, it might take 60 to 120 seconds to actually give you an answer back. But...

It was amazing. The door-to-door directions, the ability to take a map and zoom in and zoom out. We use these things 10 times a day now. It was amazing. We were the first two humans to see it on the internet. This stuff didn't even exist to the world. Navtech was building it for Hertz Neverloss, which would come out a few years later. This was not something that people knew existed.

This was something we discovered that it existed. Everyone was like, well, let's put it on the internet and share it with the world. What did the two of you feel like to see that magic? Did you know? It was amazing. It was like, what? I mean, the amazing just that it's cool, but also that you could see the future that this could transform. I don't think people understand before this moment,

You could not be told your directions. You just could not. Like today, we live in this world where we're told our directions all the time. Before this moment, you could not be told your directions. And all of a sudden, you could. It wasn't like a little thing.

Yeah, there's a bunch of things that we, once we have, we take it for granted. And that takes like a day for people to transition. Totally. It's like, boom. Oh, okay, cool. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it's when you see, maybe when you're one of the first humans to see that thing, you're like, holy shit. Holy shit, this is going to be used by everyone all the time forever. Yeah.

So Zip2 was a success. I would say it was a success, but it was also a very hard company to build. And I mean it because the internet in those days was a boom time. We were being funded, but you couldn't make any money. And so it was actually really hard. The constant outside criticism that we aren't for real,

This is not going to survive. This is not going to. And it started to feel that way. We're like, wow, man, this is a – we are doing something that is great that people are using. And we were top 100 website. Most of our work was through folks like the New York Times. So we're even much busier than that. But there was just no money in it. Even today, go to Google Maps. There's no money in it. It's just –

It's just local search that is needed for everyone. And it became an add-on to search. But even remember in those days, you couldn't make money at search either. No one had figured out AdWords or anything. They didn't realize how big of a business this was. But we all knew this was a thing. And everyone was using it. But didn't quite know how to make money on it. Couldn't make money. When we got acquired, it was a bittersweet moment because...

Compact that owned AltaVista wanted to merge, so that's sort of regular search with the best search engine at the time, pre-Google, with Zip2, which would be the best local search, and it would be a Yahoo killer. And Compact just wanted to make money by taking the company public, but they wouldn't give us any stock. They paid us cash return out actually very well for us, but because the whole internet bubble burst, we didn't know that at the time.

And so it was bittersweet because they essentially wanted our company and we were welcome to stay, but you don't have to. And that feeling was pretty, that was a pretty rough feeling. But in retrospect, it opened the door to... It set us up for an incredible platform to go do beautiful things. You invested in x.com.

that eventually merged with PayPal. That's a fascinating story there. Also fascinating on many levels, including the fact that the current social media company, formerly known as Twitter, is now called X. History has a rhyme to it. It's kind of all hilarious in a certain kind of way. You invested in and helped sell a lot of the initial products for Tesla.

Yeah, I still sit on the board of Tesla. Tesla is 20 years now. Isn't that amazing? 20 years. Yeah. From the roadster, the initial roadster to- I still have the first business plan. So I didn't join as a founder. I joined as a founding board member. And so I actually, I didn't write the business plan. I got to read it. And I still have that. I still have it as a part of history. Did you see the future at that time? Like the company that Tesla is today, could you possibly, could you and Elon imagine it?

No, no, I certainly didn't. What I saw in it was a real, for me personally, I was really upset that General Motors had killed their EV car. There's even a movie called Who Killed the Electric Car? And I knew that the physics of electric is perfectly fine. I mean, there's no reason why you couldn't use an electric car to drive around.

What resonated with me with the business plan was take an electric motor, which is really a high-performance motor, and put it in a sports car and sell it at a high price as a way to enter into the market. Whereas what others had been doing, what General Motors had done is you put it into a really crummy car and you sell it as a commuter vehicle that doesn't really work that well and looks ugly as well. They really did everything they could to make that thing as ugly as it's in.

And then I was like, okay, I get it. We're going to take an appropriate technology and put it in an appropriate car so that when you have, because electric motors, they have constant torque, incredible power, put it in a car that looks like a sports car. So the idea was to put it in the Lotus Elise, redesign it a bit. And even at that point, I was like, this is theoretically good.

So I'm going to join and help build it. But I was not convinced that it would work because General Motors had done such a terrible job of making everyone think that these things are terrible. But I was curious. And the time that I fell in love with the company and its mission was I was driving in what's called a mule where we take a car and we take the engine out and we put in an electric drivetrain.

And I drove it. You know, even the dashboards, there's no dashboard. It's just like you got a steering wheel and it's just like wires and everything around. And I remember there's a street we were running in the Bay Area called Bing Street. And I was just like, no traffic. So I'm just going to drive this on the floor and see what happens. And it was...

It was a feeling I'd never experienced before. Gasoline cars have an inertia to them. So you go... Yeah. This is just... It was like being shot out of a cannon. And I was like, okay, this is going to be real. It's a very spaceship-like feeling. Yeah. It's like, whoa. It's like the G-Force pulls you back. So I was like, okay, this is going to be great. This is going to be an interesting... We're going to create something interesting here.

I think the real transformative thing for Tesla was the Model 3 when we were able to get the price down for the world. And that was also one of the most challenging periods for Tesla. And you were done. We were borderline bankrupt like two or three times that year. I mean, it was just, and everyone was hating on us about whether we'd get that done. The Model 3 today is incredibly affordable car, like a 300 bucks a month kind of lease and everything.

$3,000 down, that's where you get the scale. That's where you get people who

And by the way, it's a great car. It's even a better Model 3 now than it was five years ago. We don't function the way car companies function, right? We function more like how an iPhone company, how Apple works. So our Model 3 today is, this year is better than last year. It's like way better. And we just keep getting better. And the software is a fundamental part of the car and the software keeps improving. Exactly. And we can upload over the air. Which was one of the things that people don't,

often acknowledge it's the over-the-air updates. It's like a revolutionary thing. It's not just the autopilot. To me, it's like the over-the-air updates is an even bigger thing than autopilot, at least in this moment of history, because you basically turned a car into an iPhone. Exactly. It's an iPhone with wheels. Yeah.

actually talking about autopilot, like right after this interview, I'm going to go test out the latest model three. You're going to get driven around by a robot. I'm going to get driven around by the car. I'm going to say, I want to go to this barbecue joint, take me there and park me there. And, um, I'm going to see how it is. And this is our, the, the latest model three that we have out into production. Anyone can buy it. And it's super affordable. And it's like, okay, um,

You know, full stop driving is a journey, right? It's not like there's a destination. It's a journey forever. So let's see where we are on the journey today.

And there's been a bit of a push and pull between you and Elon in terms of levels of optimism about deadlines and so on, timelines, about when we'll arrive at the destination. I like that you said it's a journey. Yeah. For Elon, there's a destination. Right, exactly. And that destination is tomorrow or yesterday. I think that's a really good insight. I actually live with this concept of a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset. And it's a philosophical term where

where fixed mindset is about the destination and growth mindset is about learning on the journey. And I think that I'm a happier person because I take that learning on the journey approach, which is really frustrating if you're always, it has to be about the destination every time. The nice thing about destination, at least from my personal perspective as like a programmer engineer is like, it's,

it puts a little fire under you to get shit done. Like if there's a clear deadline of a destination, you feel the anxiety of that. I would say that I still do that, but I call those forcing functions instead of destinations. Sure. Because you're just forcing people to crank on some code or cookbook or whatever because you have a date. And sometimes there's a reason. I mean, it's the 20th anniversary, you want to get the cookbook out. We have a reason. We didn't make this up out of thin air, right?

And so, yeah, that does push you. But just because we have the cookbook doesn't mean it's a destination. It means it was a forcing function to get it out there. Now we're on the journey. Speaking of journeys, I have to ask you about SpaceX. I mean, the journey that all of humanity is on. Seriously, that is a book about a journey. That is incredible. It's an interesting moment in the history of humanity that perhaps, hopefully, will become a multi-planetary species.

But SpaceX is also a company. You invested in SpaceX. You were side by side with Elon through the highs and the lows. Through the lows and the highs. So what were some memorable challenges? What were some low points from the history of SpaceX? One of the hardest times in SpaceX was...

We were in the mid-Pacific in KwaZulu-Nan, and my brother had sold PayPal. He'd done well financially, but in the rocket world, that money goes away really quickly. And we were in this military base in KwaZulu-Nan, and I think it was the second rocket that blew up. I'm not sure, but...

We didn't have infinite resources. I certainly didn't have the resources. I mean, I'm there to support, brotherly support. But the... So every rocket launch was do or die. And the first one had blown up. And so the second one, I think it was the second one, blew up. And it was so depressing. It was just like, oh, there's nowhere to go. You're in the... There's no distraction. You're just...

You're on this military base. You don't really socialize. It's just we're all together. And I had gotten to know, you know, for me, I'm not part of the team. I'm just there for emotional support or whatever because it's cool. And so I got to know a couple of people locally and got to know this one guy who had a mobile home. Best view in the world, but it's just a mobile home with a patch of grass next to it.

And I was just desperate to find food that wasn't from the cafeteria because this is the worst food you can imagine. And so he showed – I met him and he showed me this little tiny little grocery store which had a few things like canned tomatoes. This is, again, you're in the middle of nowhere, so it's nothing fresh. And I made this dish that was kind of a version of a –

like an Italian version of chili, you know, just baked beans and sweating onions and then tomatoes. And it was a big pot of food because it's a group of people. We didn't even have a table. And we just put the big pot in the middle and we had our little paper plates and took a scoop as we needed it. And it was really the gathering place of like food brings people together in the most difficult times. And it was one of my favorite memories because...

I was able to bring my gift to this group of incredible people that their hearts were broken. And to sit there and share a meal and feel the life kind of come back into us. And by the end of the night, we're actually having a good time. What a fascinating contrast of rockets kind of representing the peak accomplishment of human beings as a society and then returning to the thing

that is the foundation of human society, which is that communal experience. - That communal, vulnerable connection, like we mentioned vulnerability earlier. The most vulnerable place, actually that's when you have some of your most beautiful meals. - Yeah, the descendants of apes gathering around some baked beans. - Right. - After watching a rocket explode. - Yeah. - What gives you hope about the future of this whole thing we got going on, humanity?

If you look at how things have changed over the past, say, 50 years, you can clearly say, oh, wow, poverty rates have gone down. Infant mortality has gone down dramatically. All these things have gone down a lot. So if you look at it on a daily basis, you can tell that life is very dramatic, whether it's something's blowing up on X or from the newspapers or whatever, and you can really get caught up into it.

But if you look back over the past few decades, things are getting better. And I mean at the fundamental level, like are less people hungry? Are more people, are there, I mean, there is war going on, of course, but are there less wars? Yes. And so I think that, I think if we all just step back a little bit

It's less about hope. It's more perspective and reflection. And if I do see a problem, like in case of the obesity epidemic, I work really hard to help with that. I work with a nonprofit called Big Green, and we work with 150 nonprofits around the country to help Americans grow food again, get connected to their food.

Because I really believe growing food changes your life. And so, okay, let's go do that. So I'll help out where I think we really can make a difference. But if you step back a little, things are actually getting better. It's just a bumpy ride. Yeah, and for those of us watching all of this, I think I would love to see more celebrating of the people that are helping.

the people that have found their way of helping and just celebrating those people. Well, I would also, actually, that's a really nice point. I have learned that you really want to celebrate your successes because even in the greater scheme of things, I've learned this in the startup world where you're constantly facing death. You know, like, why should you even exist? Do your customers want your product or whatever?

And then something will happen where you're like, wow, we really nailed that. That's really great. We got a product released or got some good kudos from something. All right, everyone, we're going to go celebrate. And actually everyone's still like, no, no, we've got all these other problems. Nope, we're going to go celebrate and then we'll go back to the problems. But if you don't do that, then it starts building on this kind of you never really get to celebrate. Right.

And be grateful. Well, I think this is a good time to go celebrate the very fact that we're alive today. We get to live and enjoy this incredible life, the two of us, and have this great conversation. And we'll get to celebrate over some scrambled eggs. Beautiful. I'm going to hold you to it. Beautiful. Kimo, thank you so much for talking today. Thank you for having me.

Thanks for listening to this conversation with Kimball Musk. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you some words from Anthony Bourdain. Your body is not a temple. It's an amusement park. Enjoy the ride. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.