Yes, Santa Visits China
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Friend of the Bridge to China, Dr. Frank Stonier, shares an American perspective on Christmas in China. Welcome to The Bridge, enlightening conversations on world cultures, life, and everything in between. Hey everyone, this is Jason Smith, host of The Bridge podcast from sunny California. If you like the show, don't forget to subscribe. We love The Bridge. Oh yeah.

Hi everyone. I'm Jason Smith, originally from sunny California, now living in beautiful Beijing. Today's guest is Dr. Francis Stonier, Frank Stonier. He's an associate professor of curriculum and instruction at Southwest University in Chongqing, China. Dr. Stonier's primary research interest is in STEAM education that stem with an A. Other areas of research include international education, online learning, educational policy, geographic information systems,

While in his most recent faculty position in 2019, he has been developing and conducting STEAM curriculum for teacher training, along with developing formal STEAM program for education majors within the university. He's also a hero in China, and we'll talk about that briefly, although we've done entire shows on it before. And there's a statue of him. Welcome back to the show, Dr. Stonier. Well, great to see you, Jason. Yeah, it's great to see you, too. How have you been? I've been doing really well. It's been...

Busy times, but good times. Firstly, just let's recap for people who don't know who you are. When did you start coming to China? When did you move to China? Well, my first time was 2008. Actually, when I was a PhD student, I had an opportunity to come visit for a summer. And then I wound up coming on sabbatical in 2017.

And 2018, I did a semester here at Southwest University. And then 2019, I joined the faculty. That's remarkable. I have actually some other American friends who are moving out to some universities in China. There's Dr. Brian Van Norton. He's a philosophy professor. He might move to Wuhan. I'm assuming you call your mom like a good son. I do my best. I try to give a call every week there. But sometimes we miss a little bit. But yeah, about every week. And that's a great thing, you know.

There are families in America that are related to us, you know, and they hear our stories about, you know, being happy and normal life. And I think that's probably more important than anything people see on the news. You know, what their brother, their son, their cousin says to them. Oh, absolutely. I'm going to blow this out of proportion. You can tone down the hyperbole. You helped –

Save Bebe, which is a district of Chongqing from a mountain fire. Is that right? Well, I was a very, very small piece of the saving Bebe from forest fires there. But no, I was just a small cog in the very big machine of everybody working together.

I think because you're an American and you were helping with the forest, fighting the forest fire, that's part of what gave you national recognition here in China where you were on the news, like on basically all – on Xinhua, on CGTN. You were interviewed by multiple parties and there is a statue of you on your campus now. There is.

So it's not on campus. It's actually – it's still in Beibei, but it's in a different area. It was made by an art professor at Southwest University, but no, it's part of the – I don't know if it's under the Beibei government or the Chongqing government, but no, it's more of a government art museum area. Oh, okay.

Did they wait? So it's the same place on the grass where you sent me the picture, right? Yeah. Yeah. But that's not on campus. Yeah. Oh, okay. I thought you said that was, you saw it on your way to work. So I assumed that it was like, Oh, well, so I, I have a private classroom over there where I do a lot of my work as well. This is a different classroom. I have like five different steam labs. Now it's, it's wild, but, uh, um,

No, I do. So I'm over there a lot. And it just it just happened. The art museum was built there. And so I noticed it when I was leaving my room there. That's great. What can I ask you? What do your family at home think of the you know, the fact that there's a statue of you in China?

They certainly think it's pretty, pretty cool. You know, they're just still it's hard for them to register like, you know, it's so different, you know, that something like that would be recognized and all. Yeah, it's pretty. Yeah, it's pretty. Definitely, definitely pride, though. I'm sure they're very, very happy about it. That's a really amazing story. I'm still I don't think

I don't think no matter what I do in the remaining decades I have, I'm going to get a statue, Frank. So I've got to say, you know, you've reached an echelon very few people in the world get to. I certainly never expected it myself. But if you're going to have a statue made, it ought to be on the back of a motorcycle wielding a chainsaw. I think that's what every man wants. Yeah.

Okay, so I wanted to talk about Christmas because, you know, we're Americans. We're living in China. And in my opinion, I don't know how it was in your family. Christmas is the big holiday of America to me. You know, all the shopping malls are super decorated. There's the music for weeks in advance. Houses are decorated. Families are getting together. It's like Thanksgiving, but like amplified four or five times more.

So, for you, living in China, what's that like? Well, you know, holidays, it's kind of year to year, it varies. So, some years we have get-togethers with friends, and it might be foreigners, it might be Chinese folks. Sometimes we might do more decorations or less decorations at home or in some other rooms. This year, a little more low-key this year, we had actually a pretty good Thanksgiving recently, which is cool, but...

you know, out in the public, you know, of course the malls, the further you go downtown, the bigger the trees get, but, uh, a lot of the restaurants will have little Christmas decorations, uh,

Some of the coffee shops will have like a holiday themed one. Still haven't seen peppermint mocha, but they do have some other choices there. But yeah, lots of decorations for sure. So do you do Christmas in your home? Do you have like a – do you have a little tree? Do you put presents under the tree? Sometimes we have, yeah. I don't know if we're doing it this year or not. Usually my wife is kind of the decider on that. Yeah.

It's not necessarily every year, but pretty close. I mean, every other year or so. I'm going to embarrass my wife how she does Christmases like this. At some point, I'm like, oh, can I have these shoes or something just whenever, sometime before Christmas, whatever it is. And she'll just say, yeah, that's your Christmas gift. So like, okay, sure. Okay, then I guess this is my Christmas gift. So whatever it is I need that month, this month, then that just turns into my Christmas gift. Oh.

Oh, we have a daughter who just turned eight. So we do try to keep the Christmas spirit going a little bit there, too. So it usually comes as a surprise. All of a sudden, there's like nothing. And then it's, you know, Santa wife, just all these presents appear and

you know, then we wind up having Christmas. It may happen again this year. We'll see. You know, I like to think that America is a culture of movies, you know, since moving to China and seeing how thick and elaborate and deep and wide Chinese culture is, it's made me reflect on what is American culture. And I have to say for me personally, my answer has been movies. You know, our Hollywood movies seem to be a very huge defining feature of our culture and Christmas is

littered with movies about Christmas pertaining to Christmas, you know, like Elf. So do you watch some of the Christmas classics? Do you watch some of them at this time of the year? Um, yeah, sometimes. Yeah. Um, you know, uh, you know, there's the Christmas story is always a good classic. Um, uh,

It's a Wonderful Life is always a nice one. I was like, even the black and white one once in a while. It was more of a tradition growing up. Yeah, you know, there's just so many. And of course, you know, if you go a different direction, I mean, you know, you got Gremlins, you got, you know, his Die Hard, a Christmas movie or an action movie, you know, so there's a lot of directions you can go. Yeah.

But yeah, so this year I'll probably run a little something with my daughter when we have time. I'm completely with you about Die Hard being a Christmas movie. And I know everyone that I know is. But interestingly, on Instagram, I saw Bruce Willis in an interview say it's not.

So I'm like, I don't think Bruce gets to decide at this point. We're just going to have to take his opinion and set it aside because it's clearly a Christmas. There's Christmas trees all throughout the entire movie, even at the end scene. Christmas music is playing. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, you know, movies take on a culture of their own as well. So, you know, some become cult classics. Some are, you know, received well at the beginning and then some grow over time. So it just how do people interpret it and how do people receive it? So, you know.

In terms of your experience of Chinese folks, do they take an interest in Christmas? Is Christmas celebrated in Beibei in some way or is it just a shopping kind of homage? Yeah, I wouldn't say it's very overt aside from the shopping element, of course. But I don't hear a lot of people say, oh, I'm celebrating it. But.

I do have, you know, people who will, you know, just the other day, I got a little Christmas treat, you know, like a little little Christmas cake thing the other day. It's just like two days ago and just as nice surprise. But they're like, you know, Merry Christmas. People do think about it, certainly, whether they do it at home or not. I can't really say.

I don't see a lot of moments where people are showing off their trees at home and things, but I'm sure it happens plenty. But yeah, I'd say overtly in public. I mean, yeah, the malls, the restaurants, you'll see the decorations, but and you'll hear the Christmas music sometimes too, which is nice. That always does warm my heart when I am sitting down for a meal and it's like, oh, cool. I got the Christmas music going. I was having espresso with a friend last night. I don't know why I was drinking espresso at night, but anyways, I was and we were sitting in a bar. He was drinking a beer. I was having espresso.

And Christmas music played the whole time. We were talking about philosophy and stuff, and it was just bizarre to me. Like, oh, wow, it's Christmastime globally, I guess. But I think my personal opinion, there's a mall area. It's not a mall. It's like an inside-outside shopping area near where I live, maybe a 20-minute walk from here.

And it's got, you know, Santa Claus statues that rotate that are full sized and like it's got, you know, decorations up. And I don't think anyone actually goes and celebrates Christmas at home. But I think the the the shopping thing.

gurus who were trying to get people into the shopping spirit think, oh, this works in the West. It's going to work here. We'll get them. So I think any opportunity to showcase products in a new, unique way, it's going to be something that latches on for market people. So here in Beijing, it's very decked out. You live near Chongqing, which is now one of the more well-known cities in China, which it didn't used to be.

yeah it didn't used to be it used to be like yeah Chongqing is the other city but now it's like Chongqing everyone wants is talking about Chongqing if you go on Instagram it's everywhere it's being called Cyber City it's it's this amazing uh especially that one particular view from the coast looking into the city at that giant yeah like the Hongya Dong yeah downtown yeah exactly I went into that by the way it's got

amazing. Do you go there? Yeah, when I can. It's a great area. You know, got the Grand Theater down there. There's some beautiful bridges across the water. And then the Hongyudong is just such a cool area. It's all full of little restaurants and shops. If you have a, you know, a lot of time you just see it, but if you have time to actually walk in, I mean, there's

there's some neat little shops it's really really cool how that's and it has that chongqing thing but yeah real popular lisa baz right there where it goes through the uh the apartment buildings and all too so it's all right downtown for a lot of the the major major sites there has the thing where you can walk in on the first on the on the ground floor sure on where you think is and then you go up that's always i don't know how many 12 floors or something and you come out and you're on the ground floor again how the

That's magic. I tell you, yeah. Well, even this building. I mean, I come in on the fourth floor, but I could leave on the first floor or I could leave on the B2 or the third floor. And they all connect out because it's all slopes everywhere. They could just do an engineering architecture show just about Chongqing and that related area. It's quite a... Oh, easily. Easily. It's amazing. I heard descriptions of it 10 years ago and I was like...

I didn't understand. And then when I went there, I was like, wow, this is something. Yeah, it's a pretty cool city, guys. I want to go back. Actually, I was invited by the city government to go there. So I may actually take them up on that. Let me know next time you're in town. Hopefully we can hang out a little bit. I will. Last time I was only there for two nights or something. So we didn't have enough time. I know. It was so brief. I know. We reached out. It was just, you know, it wasn't possible. Busy schedule. We also were just really, you have no idea how exhausted. We landed in...

And then we went to like five cities in five days. And we went to Chongqing. And after one day, we actually had another day. The next day, we just stayed in the hotel because we were so exhausted. We couldn't move anymore. I don't blame you. You're listening to The Bridge.

In terms of like, what about New Year's? What's your experience been of New Year's? I don't mean Chinese Spring Festival New Year. I mean, International December 31st New Year. What's your experience in China of that? What does that like in China? You know, it's not as big a deal as, say, as it is in the U.S. where, you know, watch the ball drop in Manhattan and all. Or the apple, depending on what it is for me to hear.

But, yeah, you know, it's mentioned, it's celebrated a bit. I think this year, I think it's just one day off, at least in our area. I don't know how it's going to be up in Beijing, but some years they even give like three days off, which is kind of cool. But, yeah, you just never know. But, yeah, so it's not as huge. I mean, the big New Year's is coming, but, yeah, so...

you know regular new year's january 1st you know december 31st uh um it's certainly mentioned and celebrated um but uh yeah i wouldn't say it's quite as a biggest spectacle you know okay in terms of chinese new year this is kind of a question i want to ask

What's your feeling about it now that, you know, because, you know, when you're in Rome, do as the Romans do, right? When you're in China, the Chinese Spring Festival is the big holiday. It's the, you know, it's their Christmas. So are you really big into it now because it, you know, your cultural sociological surroundings are...

are like exciting at that time. Yeah, it's certainly growing on me. I mean, yeah, I was a little more skeptical at the beginning. I will, I will admit that, but no, it's, you know, it is a really nice time to kind of come together. And if you ever, have you ever been up to the, to the gong? It's, it's kind of between Chongqing and Chengdu, but the gong, it's,

It's like the Lantern Festival City. They do dinosaurs and they do lanterns. And it is wild. You should go. If not this year, go. It will ruin you on lantern festivals. But that one lived up to the hype. But that was like, wow. I'm sure you've been to lots of the lantern festivals.

you know, displays. Not really. I've been to a couple of small ones. It's huge. That sounds neat. No, this is, this will, this is worth going. Yeah. You should, you should do a video on that one. But, but yeah, really impressive. Yeah. I got to go there last, I think it was either last year or the year before. And yeah, I would go again. They change it every year too, but.

Yeah, it's impressive. But yeah, so no, I mean, that personally is my favorite part. It's just such a beautiful display where they have the lanterns out, even if it's just city squares and things. It's just really neat to see. You know, sometimes they have things out for the kids, like little mazes they can go through in the city squares and stuff. So, you know, they have some nice things for kids to interact with, which I appreciate. And yeah, it's a great time to get together for meals, whether it's family or friends. So.

um yeah no it's really growing on me i'm enjoying it you know we we often try to do some cultural activities too uh we did it more especially when we weren't quite as mobile with covet stuff there but uh especially for the international students who are still around we we would do let's make some lanterns or let's say let's make some dumplings and you know so we would we would do some activities like that you know here locally for even some pretty large groups my question is this uh

You were from kind of all over, if I remember correctly. You moved around quite a bit in America. Is that right? Yeah. I sure did. For me, I lived a great deal in San Francisco, and they have a Chinatown. So every year there was a huge Chinese New Year celebration, spring festival things just for San Francisco that was huge. And all the different East Asian cultures and Southeast Asian cultures who all celebrated some kind of Lunar New Year came together too. Yeah.

But when I was living – I was also living in Oakdale, California, which is like a very American city. It's a cowboys and that rodeos and stuff. And so there was nothing there. Chinese New Year came and went and you didn't know, right? So like what was your experience in America of hearing about –

the spring festival? Well, most recently I was coming from Northern Atlanta and fortunately in Atlanta, they would, they did have a Chinese cultural center. It wasn't like a Chinatown per se, but they had Asian markets and scattered throughout that. But yeah, they would do the dragon dance and the lion dance and yeah, we would go down there. So we'd, we'd hang out there and so you could actually see the performances. They'd have

singing all day long where there's people stage performing and then they break for some lion dancing and outside are some dragon dances. And so that was really nice to see. And that was kind of my, I mean, I've been to Chinatowns, but that was my first time seeing kind of Chinese New Year. And that was before me really coming to China.

So yeah, it was really nice to actually see that in the US. And yeah, so it was nice to experience that. But yeah, I wouldn't say that was available everywhere though. Atlanta, definitely. I guess that's kind of my point too, I think. I feel like China and the United States are celebrating each other's cultures in a similar way. Because if you go to a lot of Chinese cities or towns or villages, they're like, Christmas comes and goes and no one knows, right? Like if you go to the big cities...

People – you notice in their decorations and things. And I think that you get that in American cities also. You get some spring festival vibes in the bigger cities. But if you go to the small towns, it's less so or sometimes not so at all, which is basically kind of a mirror image of the other cities.

side which i think is fascinating yeah because we're both kind of celebrating each other's cultures but mostly in the most metropolitan areas yeah well i mean that's usually where you know your denser populations and people have been from other places usually so i mean it's understandable but yeah it is kind of a neat little comparison there yeah um in terms of uh uh

specifically like in Bebe? What is the population there, firstly? I think Bebe itself is pretty close to about a million folks. Yeah, so we've got a bit. The Christmas decorations are primarily at the big super malls, right? Definitely at the malls, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, well, I mean, you'll go into some, you know, I could go across the street right here and, you know, a couple of the restaurants will have Christmas decorations up, but not everywhere. But and of course, the Lawsons will have a few things as well. It's basically our 7-Elevens. I wonder how many I'm just trying to think of the comparison for an American 7-Eleven in, you know, Arkansas. Are you going to go in there and find like something for Chinese New Year at that time? I'm wondering. I wouldn't count on that. Yeah.

Yeah. So we kind of talked about how malls and spaces like that transform. Do you find it's easy to find holiday specific items or do you buy them like on Jingdong and Taobao? Yeah, I would. I mean, you might luck out and find things for sale. It may be more likely like a big grocery store chain. You might find like a little display thing or if you go to like Sam's Club, you

I think Shanghai's got Costco. I haven't been there yet, unfortunately. But our Sam's Club does have a Christmas display. I saw that just the other week. So I could buy things there. But yeah, now that I know how to – I've almost mastered Taobao. I'd say that's my go-to. But yeah, Taobao, Pinduoduo, basically our Amazons. Well, actually, speaking of Jingdong, I happen to have something here. This is just a cultural reference for people who may not know.

I am a snake and next year is the year of the snake. So consequently, I am expected to wear some kind of red. These are red socks. I have to wear red socks every day for the entirety of this year of the snake in China because I guess it brings good luck or something. So I have got I've got 10 pairs of red socks. I'm hoping that 10 is enough to make the year if I'm just wearing. So

So, yeah, I think, you know, I actually really think it's a lot of fun. I don't know about the, you know, mythology or whatever really that well, but I think it's just a lot of fun to play these kind of games. It's kind of like cosplay, you know, it's like, oh, OK, it's spring festival. Let's do the spring festival cosplay. You know, let's do that. That sounds fun. Yeah, there's a lot to be gained from cosplay.

learning about and celebrating one another's cultures in that way. Absolutely. Yeah, I agree with that. So you do celebrate with Chinese friends? You have like a dinner? I have a question. In Beijing... Sometimes, yeah. Yeah, I'd say for Chinese New Year, definitely. No, I mean in Christmas. Because in... Christmas, it depends. Maybe not every year, but sometimes.

Here in Beijing, we have a lot of restaurants that will do Thanksgiving dinners, for example, and do Christmas dinners. You have to sign up. It's like 150 RMB, 200 RMB, 300 RMB. A lot of the time they're in hotels or in bars where they're trying to make you aware that they're still there. So do you have that kind of thing in Beibei or do you go to Chongqing for that or do you? It'd have to be downtown. Yeah, downtown they run them.

Yeah, so I've seen a lot of that. Yeah, up here, actually for Thanksgiving, we kind of did our own. It was about maybe about 15 of us got together. We all brought like a potluck kind of situation there. So, yeah, we may or may not do something like that this year. It's just kind of busy through the end of the year. January is so much easier.

But we'll see. We'll see. I don't know exactly what the plans are yet. But yeah, so that's a way to do it, at least here where we're at. Downtown, I mean, we could hit a restaurant. But again, it depends who's around and what people want to do. I mean, the potluck was fantastic. It was like a real Thanksgiving. It was wonderful. You know, I used to be a kindergarten teacher years ago. And

I noticed on Christmas or around that time, children would sometimes bring me an apple. Oh, sure. And I thought this was peculiar. I thought this was very peculiar because I don't remember this in America, like getting apples for Christmas. So like, do you notice any, you know, Chinese specific things

ways that people interpret Christmas? Usually just some kind of little gift. Like I said, I got the little cake the other day. That was a surprise I wasn't expecting. But yeah, I've had some years where, yeah, I just get some, you know, maybe a little craft or, you know, a little snack or treat that is...

themed for the holidays there. So a Christmas treat. So yeah, it happens sometimes. You know, you seem very happy in your life in China. Would that, is that accurate? Oh yeah. No, I'm, I'm in, I'm in a good place. My question is this, when you things like Christmas or Thanksgiving are coming around, do you feel homesick? Um, on occasion? Um, you know, it just depends. I mean, you know, I have my wife and daughter here, so I mean that helps. And I have a, I have a lot of things keeping me busy, but, um, yeah, I'd say overall, uh, you know, it,

sometimes with the holidays, but not usually excessively. There's times I'm like, oh, I wish I could go down to the Walmart and get, you know, where's the mint-flavored M&M's or something. But no, if I want more of a holiday atmosphere, it's like, yeah, I'll try to schedule some time and go downtown and walk around the mall for a few hours or something and just enjoy the trees and the Christmas music. I think I might actually do that later, maybe next week if I have time. Yeah.

You know, something I haven't done in many years was caroling. I actually did that in China a few years, 2015, 16, 17. So a group of friends, we just printed the lyrics to like four or five songs. And we stood in one of the areas where like the damas hang out. So we knew this is a public area where like we're not going to get like in trouble for being noisy. And we just stood there and sang like –

songs. It was actually really fun. And we got a little Chinese audience gathered around us, like mesmerized that this thing was happening. It was delightful. I recommend that more foreigners try this. Yeah, I don't usually promote me singing. That's not usually something somebody wants to hear. But caroling is interesting. I never really thought about doing that here. I've done a tiny bit in the past, but I don't have much of a singing voice.

But no, that's pretty cool. That sounds like it'd be fun. I don't have much of a singing voice. I don't go to KTV. I don't go to KTV. I'm not a singer, but it was just fun because again, it's like cosplaying. It's like, it's one of those things that when you put on a funny hat or you put on, you know, and people are like, Ooh, wow, that's interesting. I just think that's a lot of fun. Sure. Last question about holidays before we move on to steam. Firstly, have you lived in another country besides China and the U S not, uh, not lived. I, I,

I had spent some time in Costa Rica with some study abroad with my former university, but not during the holidays or anything, just a few weeks at a time kind of thing. Do you have any personal observations about how your perception of what holidays mean when you live in another country and their holidays are basically not the same ones as that you're used to celebrating back home? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, especially more being a father, too. It impacts like we finally made it back to the U.S. after more than four years this summer. And my daughter had her first Fourth of July. You know, it's just like, oh, you know, it's like, oh, she should have had that. But again, at least she's getting those experiences. Yeah. So you do kind of miss out with some of that. But then you also gain a lot of extra holidays. And, you know, it's like we have so many holidays because it's like all the Chinese holidays, all the American holidays, you know,

So it's like you kind of got to pick and choose which ones you're celebrating sometimes where it's like we have a holiday every week and then they kind of lose their special meaning too. But no, it definitely is a little bit of a change for sure. Hey everyone, this is Jason Smith, host of The Bridge podcast from sunny California. If you like the show, don't forget to subscribe. We love The Bridge. You're listening to The Bridge.

Most people I know, they talk about STEM. Sure. Yeah. So that's science, technology, engineering and mathematics. And you've added a I guess other people do, too, for art. Is that right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, you know, STEM, of course, started in the U.S. It's been been a while now. I guess probably hitting 30 years or so.

But so they started off with STEM, but then they put all the funding toward just science, technology, engineering, and math classes and subjects. And they very quickly realized, oh, there's no budget for physical education or music or art. And so a lot of those programs started getting cut. But then they realized, hey, if we try to integrate things where in art, it's not just art in isolation, we can actually tie it to other things, right?

let's try a steam there. So steam became much more popular, uh,

And I've actually gone with steam from the start. But I see more and more places even in China embracing it. There was a high school even earlier this fall. It was – gosh, I can't even remember which city. I've been to so many this fall. But a pretty, pretty well-known high school out there, Guilin. It was up in Guilin. And they had steam on the wall. I mean, we're not talking like a banner. We're talking like, you know, the acrylic, colorful things on the wall everywhere.

And it wasn't on my account. They were actually doing that on their own. So that was very cool to see. But yeah, so it's basically just that these things aren't taught in isolation. Like if I'm a science teacher, science class doesn't mean just science. We can also do some of these other activities or math class doesn't have to just be math. What is your perception of the benefit of interrelationship?

integrating is it just to save art from being cut from the curriculum and so you include it into popular categories or how does art you know that's actually a great question well how does art actually influence and benefit these other aspects of of steam the other letters absolutely well um so like i mean even in nature i mean there's some incredible art where you know just

even looking at cells and look at our sky and shoot, look at, look at the rings on a tree. I mean, if you can't say that there's some art to that, you know, you might need to look again. But, but tying it into art gives, gives a better visualization. You know, not everybody wants to just, you know, read it, read it or have it lectured to them the whole time, but to actually visualize it in other ways. And art really gives you a nice aspect to,

you know, display what you're doing to express it in different ways. You know, I mean, there's times where, you know, might do competitions and it's like, well, we also want to look at, you know, the aesthetics, how beautiful something is, you know, and not just how fast or how heavy or how far, you know, things like that. So, you know, it really can be a beautiful element to it. And I find almost every, not every, but almost every STEAM activity will have an art element to it.

And that's something, too, with STEAM, like STEM or STEAM. Not every STEM or STEAM lesson is going to hit all four or all five categories. Sometimes it might only be, say, science and math or science and art or what have you. And that's okay. That's okay. There's certainly a lot of art to math visually. But my question – another question I have is what about non-visual art like music? How can music be related to –

science, technology, and mathematics? Sure. Well, I don't do as much music because I'm not as musically talented, but it's very possible, especially with the engineering element, to make your own instruments. There's a lot of rhythm. I've done some activities, especially with smaller children, where you kind of make your own song after you've made your own flute. But again, very basic, very basic there. I'm by no means a musician. It would be an insult to say that I was.

But, but no, I mean, there's a lot where you can, you know, music has, you know, the, the, the formulas, the, the, the chords. So, you know, there's, there's a lot to it. You know,

It's more than just, okay, you make a lot of noise by banging things or playing something or whatever. It actually needs to have a pleasing tone that may follow patterns and whatnot as well. But yeah, especially making your own instruments, there's a lot you can do with Steam with that one for sure. As a teacher, as a professor, one of the things that you're doing is you're helping people prepare for their life and prepare for their career.

How do you feel that integrating – so for someone who's going to become a scientist or a mathematician or an engineer of some kind –

How do you envision them taking art and having that help them in their field? Well, I mean, if you're talking about, you know, true, true scientists in isolation like that, that is their job. Like they live in a lab. You know, I think art would would give them a better way to probably express some of the things they're trying to share.

Even a good example, I didn't attend it, but I'd heard about it. Like I had just done a two day training down at Sichuan Fine Arts last week. And earlier this semester, they had had a famous physicist come in and give a presentation for a day. And unfortunately, they didn't really communicate very well to the students in an engaging way.

Where I think if they had a little more of an understanding of art or possibly even just say teaching, it might have been a lot more engaging for students. So for me, I had actually done morning and afternoon two days in a row.

with these art students and every one of them is engaged. They're having fun. They're making things that they might actually be able to use in a real classroom. And I don't even count myself an artist. It was kind of funny. Even at lunch, I was with some other art professors and one was like, well, what kind of art do you do? And I'm like,

I don't know. I don't, I don't really an artist, but it's like, yeah, I do kind of like a good classroom. You kind of art. I wouldn't say I'm a professional artist by any stretch, but I do create some art, I guess, but not, uh, not professionally, but, uh, but yeah, I think art gives people another way to express, um, you know, what, what they're doing, you know? So, yeah, it,

well, even just here, like even this room here, it's like, well, you know, some of the art gives it a little more element rather than just say a blank white wall, you know? So that's just a choice, you know, where, you know, it makes things, it can make your environment more, well, look behind you. It's not a bare wall either. I see some artwork

as well. That's my wife's art. Yeah. I had a picture. I had a giant picture of Socrates and she took it down and put that up. Oh, okay. Well, you know, again, your picture of Socrates would have worked just fine there too for that same. Well, I guess she's not into it. But yeah, I mean, I think art's a big part of our lives, like it or not. But I mean, well, even look at Chongqing, you know, what makes Chongqing so visually appealing downtown? It's not because it's a bunch of blocky looking buildings. It's because they

put some real effort into making a beautiful scene that's very artistic architecturally. So one of the things you keep bringing up is engagement, the engagement of the students. So would you say that the integration of art is that's one of the primary purposes as a teacher? Well, I think engagement is certainly, you know, no matter what your subject is, if people aren't going to listen, if they'd rather play on their phone or what have you,

they're not going to learn what you're trying to share. You know, I mean, if you're not having anything that one is, is at their level where they can communicate, you know, and understand it, or at least, you know, and again, like when I'm, when I'm teaching things, sometimes I teach very complex concepts, even to people where it might not even be age appropriate, say, but the, the, you know, like I could teach DNA to even kindergartners. Um,

The idea is exposure and not always mastery. And, you know, that's where we lose it sometimes where, OK, you know, gal cow, junk cow, we got to master this test, you know. But, you know, that early exposure is going to make it easier when it is time to master it. Because if I've learned about something when I was younger, it's much easier to build when I have that foundation there.

So, yeah. So I think art helps do that. I completely relate to that. You're reminding me of a lesson that I did in a kindergarten class in Wuhan. And I was teaching the children what atoms were and subatomic particles. And I have a co-teacher, a Chinese co-teacher, and she was like, Jason.

they have no idea what you're talking about. I was like, oh, yeah, it's OK. If they just know that there's really small stuff that everything's made of and that's all they remember, that's enough. And then later, some other teacher will add to that. Absolutely. Yeah, I think building that foundation early is really important. Yeah. And I mean, they do in the US. I mean,

Pre-K is going to be doing STEAM activities in the U.S. in most schools, definitely in kindergarten. I have to say, as someone looking on to the United States education system from China, wow. In terms of getting more scientists, engineers, mathematicians, and so forth involved,

we have a long way to go. So if that helps, great. Well, that's a nice thing too. If you're doing STEAM in a friendly way there, it makes science a much less scary subject. I mentioned science to adults and they're like, oh no. But honestly, if you've been exposed early, there'll be some things you can connect with. Maybe not everything, but maybe deep chemistry is a little too much there for the heavy, heavy physics.

But again, you can understand some of those concepts. Can you give us one or two examples of how you would incorporate art into a lesson?

So people know less, less abstractly, even more specifically what you're. Okay. Directions at once there. Yeah. Well, I'll give you an example of one, one I've just recently been doing. I've, I've been enjoying it. So I, I've made a planetarium. I followed a plan from NASA. They got some great, great plans out there, but it's basically like this giant trash bag.

And with that, I'm able to make this very cool planetarium. I can do it inside. I can do it outside. So one of my activities I love to do, even in the past, is I'd have us make our own constellations. You know, we'd talk about what are constellations, you know, and really those patterns are just something somebody saw this image up there and said, hey, this is, you know,

You know, say Gemini or this is Aquarius or this is the Big Dipper because I see it. You know, that's a big bear, you know, that kind of thing. So I'd have them not only make regular constellations that they may or may not be familiar with.

But then I'd let them make their own. So, you know, you want to make the snake constellation. You want to make the crab. Well, I guess it already is a crab. But so you want to make the airplane or the rocket ship or what have you, the hot pot. You know, you can make your own constellation. And with that, I kind of made our own projectors where we take a tube and a flashlight and then we poke little holes in our little constellation and you can project it.

But then I also, to take it a little further, we'll use like some pipe cleaners and glow-in-the-dark stars, and we'll make these cool glow-in-the-dark constellations. And I'll let people keep those constellations too, so they can see it glowing at home in their rooms and show mom and dad or what have you. But yeah, I mean, that's an example where, you know, you tie in some art, but there's a lot of science there. You get a little engineering maybe if you're making the projector elements, right?

Um, if I wanted to push more into like a PBL, like a project-based learning, I might've even had like the students help me design the planetarium and build the planetarium and things like that. So, I mean, it just depends how, how much time resources, you know, you can invest in, in your lessons, but you're just a quick one-off. It's like, Hey, we could have just made constellations and turned off the lights and checked them out, but Hey, we could actually make a whole show and, you know, things like that. Um,

Speaking of dark one, a great one, shadow puppets, great cultural tie in, but great opportunities for storytelling. So like I've made my own little theater and inspired a lot of schools like, yes, we need a dark room or we'll make our own places to do this. And kids make their own puppets and put on their own show. And it's just a great activity where.

You know, it doesn't cost a lot of materials. You just need I mean, it's built out of cardboard and paper. You know, I use chopsticks. You know, it's like it's not it's not a huge money investment. But again, how much time do I want to put? I can spend days putting on these plays or we can try to squeeze it in an hour. It's just, you know, you can you can make it fit your classroom.

But, you know, and I can theme it, hey, we're doing a science. I want a science play. I want you can make a play about anything you want. I could say, hey, we're learning about I want to play about nature or life cycles. I want, you know, one about transportation and technology. It's like, you know, or just let it go wild. Tell me a fairy tale. I just tie it into where your class is. Wow. That's that sounds like a lot of fun, actually. It sounds like you're having too much fun, Frank.

I'm enjoying it. You know, I do enjoy my work here. I'm here at Southwest, you know, Shunan Dashway, Southwest University. It's a good place. I have the freedom to explore a lot of these, you know, other activities with schools. I mean, I'm working with, I have a school later this afternoon I'm going to. I have a community college I'm going to tomorrow. Yeah.

It's nice that so many people are receptive to learning these new things. I'm trying to model best practices with pedagogy for these teachers as well. So I know firsthand it's been influencing quite a few teachers in a positive way where

You know, they are becoming better teachers. They're thinking more, you know, creative, you know, creatively and critically about, you know, the lessons they design and produce for their students. And, you know, that's that's a good feeling. It gives me a lot of energy and motivation to keep doing it. Do you? So I've enjoyed that a lot. Do you do any of this on social media, like recorded and put on doing, for example? No, not really. Not I mean, we've talked about it, but no, we haven't done it yet. We probably should. Yeah.

Yeah, I think that would be a lot of fun. There's actually – there's a gentleman in Beijing who does something similar to what you do. I don't think his is art. His is more like he does little science experiments for classes. But then some students a few years ago were like, we should start recording this. And they started recording them and putting them online. I think you should do the same thing. It would be a lot of fun. And instead of helping –

a few hundred people at a time, you could help thousands or tens of thousands at a time. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm open to it. If, if, if we know we can get it going, maybe so maybe we should, we'll see what we can work out there down the line. Yeah. All you need is like a stand for your phone and then your phone just live click live and then hope that no one loses a finger. You're listening to the bridge.

Okay, well, what about your life in China? I'd like to review that with the last 10 or 15 minutes we have. You know, how you said you moved here in 2018-19. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I came in 2018, did the fall semester here, and then 2019 decided to join the faculty. So, yeah.

Yeah, actually, last year, I finally made full professor even too. Yeah, so no longer a search. Wow. Yeah, it's a tougher one to do in China, but we got it. So that was good. So wait, do you have – I may ask you, do you have a green card? I don't. I should. I just haven't filled out the paperwork. But yes, I need to. Yeah, I think now that you're a full professor and you have a doctorate, you're qualified. You can get one if you wanted one. Yeah, I was qualified even before that. I do need to –

get cracking on it. It'll be a quick, easy process. I even know the folks downtown who are pretty much the ones signing off on it. They're ready for it. I think the main thing... I need to fill out the paperwork. The main thing is when you go to the train station, instead of standing in the line for old people and having to show your passport because it's a special thing, you can just walk straight through and tap it like everybody else. I was wondering if that would work because I've wanted to do that. Every time I'm in the lines for the trains, I'm like,

Oh, I wish I had my green card. And I don't know if it would work. But if I'm hearing it's working, that's good. It does work. The new one has the RFID chip inside of it. So when you're going through the airport, same thing. Oh, wow. Like you don't have to go to the special passport line anymore. And actually coming into China, you can go into the Chinese line. Oh, you're kidding. Wow. Oh, man. Yeah. So you can choose which line do I want it, which one is shorter, and you just choose the one you want to be in. Nice.

Now, you're reminding me about New England. I will definitely start working on that soon. Yeah. Right after the holidays, probably. So you've been here five, six years? No, gosh. No, probably closer to seven or eight, I think. Yeah. Wow. So is this home now? Yeah. I mean, I would say Chongqing's home. I mean, I enjoy my life here. I've got so much keeping me busy in a good way. But no, I enjoy it here. It's good. One of the things that I...

think about a lot is how to get more Americans to visit China, how to get more Americans to maybe stay a year or two living in China as a student, as a teacher, as a, you know, I don't know, whatever business they could do. Yeah. What would you say to Americans who are listening and they're thinking about coming to China? Maybe they want to get a master's degree

for you to in China? What would you say to that? Absolutely, you should come. I mean, right now, the policies are so favorable for foreign students and especially American students. You can get a full ride. They will pay for your tuition, your room and board, and a stipend. Like here in Southwest, we get students from all around the world. We don't have any American students. And I don't understand why. I think the word just doesn't get out. But

It's a free ride at all these universities. If you want to study Chinese, which many students do, that's fine. But we have students, they're getting a PhD in chemistry and microbiology. I'm over a lot of the education programs. I won't go through all the curriculum and comparative ed and all that there too. Educational technology and

But we have several just in education. But, you know, here in Southwest, I mean, we have so many English taught programs. I mean, it's not and there's there's the Chinese ones, too, if you want. But these are English taught, meaning you literally write in English. Your classes are in English. It's that it's free. It's just people don't apply. It's shocking.

Yeah. People complain about how expensive tuition is. And yes, it's outrageous. Sometimes in the US, you can get a full ride. You just need to apply and get accepted and get a plane ticket and you're there. That's it. You're done. You know, these programs run three, four years. Three, four years. So you're talking about doctorate at that or your bachelor's degree?

Well, a master's is three years. A PhD is going to be four years. Wow. I guess – I think some of the Chinese programs are just like one or two years if you're just coming to only study Chinese. Science master sounds very hard. I guess it was an MS instead of an MA. When I did my MA –

It took me three years, yes, but I could have done it in one and a half. I was just one of those students who wanted to take every single class that I could, so I stayed longer than I needed to. So MS, a master's in science, takes three years. Wow. At least in education. I can't speak to all the other programs, but at least ours are three years on the master's and then –

I think the undergrad degrees are typically about four years, which is kind of typical for U.S. there too. But yeah, some of the masters in the U.S. are about two-year programs though. I think you can actually find ones that are like one year. They're just – they're more special. Actually, I found a three-year PhD one time in Florida. Yeah, and again, it depends on your program and what university you're going to. Yeah, every program is different.

They're all very, very unique. I have a question. When you were living in the United States, how many states would you say that you had gone to? Oh, I'm almost close to 40. I never quite made it out to Alaska. Yeah. Well, I mean, you really. So, yeah.

Yeah, so I've lived in six different states. Wow. You went to 40 states? I went to like five. I feel so embarrassed now. No, I went to five different elementary schools even growing up. It was crazy. Wow, that's remarkable actually. I said that's remarkable. What about in China? Oh, sure. How many different provinces and stuff have you been to in China? Oh, goodness. Yeah.

I'd be scared to guess. Maybe very close to about 10, I'd say, give or take. So where have you been and why? Is it just for business or where have you gone because you thought, this is going to be cool, I want to go there for fun, like a vacation? Yeah. Well, my first time coming through, and I'm still a PhD student and all, I came in through Beijing, spent most of my time in Chengdu and then left through Hong Kong.

But, yeah, after coming back, I mean, we had a bit of a family tour, went to a lot of different cities, you know, like Xi'an, a lot of parts of Yunnan, you know, like Dali, Shishanbana, you know, Kuiming. You know, we've been out to the Hainan area, you know, Haikou, Sanya, that kind of stuff.

Um, and then of course, Shanghai, you know, things like that. So gotten around quite a bit. Um, but even, even like, I mean, this, this fall alone now, now places are inviting me out to do big presentations for like 500 teachers at a time kind of thing. Um, so, you know, I was out in Guilin, I was out in, um, Xining earlier, you know, so, um, kind of going all over the place. I think they'd, I think they'd fly me around more if I, uh, if I had more time as well, but, uh,

Yeah. So now I've gotten to see, I mean, not all of China, but I've gotten around a good bit. I've certainly gotten around a bit. Okay. So for people who just want to come from America to travel, they just want to come to China for two weeks, say they just have two weeks, where would you recommend they go? I think you definitely need to hit Beijing to at least see it. It kind of depends on what your interests are. Xi'an is pretty cool for at least a day or two where you can go out and see the terracotta warriors. They've got the great city wall as well.

My wife and I actually went like in a December one year and it was snowing. It was so beautiful. So I love snow. We don't get a lot of that here in Chongqing. But, yeah, you know, that's a big, big famous part. I mean, if you just want really nice weather, Yunnan's wonderful. Hainan's wonderful as far as, you know, if you want the warmer places like you're kind of like a Florida kind of situation there.

Or California, parts of California, certainly. You know, Shanghai, you know, very modern city. I've still never been to Shenzhen, so I can't really speak to that one. Me too. I've also not been to Shenzhen. Wow, I'm shocked. Okay, it's not just me. Yeah, probably the day is coming pretty soon, I'm sure. Yeah.

Hong Kong was pretty cool. I haven't been recently. I mean, it was 2008. I'm sure it's changed a bit, but that was a pretty neat city as well. But yeah, I mean, just it kind of depends what you're looking for. You're looking more for, you know, culture. Is it other specific parts of the culture you want to see? Is it more, you know, I want to see modern cities because, you know, I maybe don't live near a modern city kind of thing.

I recommend not only flying when you're here, try some of the high speed rail. That's my preferred way to travel. I mean, it's pretty affordable, but you got leg room. I mean, I've got some long legs, so I hate being crammed into a plane there. But the trains are pretty comfortable. I really enjoy those. But I fly when I need to. But I do enjoy the trains from closer cities.

You know, I mean, there's some pretty famous landmarks too, you know, like Three Gorges Dam. Yeah, I mean, that's a pretty massive, I mean, but again, like maybe I'd want to see the Hoover Dam if we're, you know, out there, you know, you never know if we're in the U.S.,

But yeah, it just depends. What are you interested in? If I can ever get my dad out here, hopefully one day. He always loved bridges. And it's like, guess what? Chongqing is the city to see bridges in. So I would probably spend a couple of days just taking him around. Check that one out. Check that one out. You want to walk across that? Make a recommendation. Have you been to Wuhan? I haven't yet. Sadly, no.

Also a very bridge-oriented city. Actually, even the Bay Bridge, which was rebuilt in San Francisco, they used Wuhan contractors to send the pre-assembled parts, you know, the prefab stuff. And they have bridges everywhere there. And they have a huge... If your dad really loves bridges, they have a huge...

Bridge Museum. Oh, cool. There you go. Yeah, you would definitely like that. So where you are is probably the I don't want to offend people in Chengdu. Sorry, Chengdu people. But where you are is the most famous hot pot in China. Like Chongqing hot pot is the hot pot. Yeah, yeah. My wife's not here, so we can say that. Yeah, yeah. Oh, she from Chengdu. I'd say Chongqing is definitely. Yeah, well, Chengdu has its pandas. You know, we'll give them pandas and we'll take hot pot over here. So

Yeah, definitely famous for their hot pot. So what makes – what is hot pot? For the people who – I mean we can say that it's no problem. We've had it. But for people listening in America or elsewhere, what's hot pot and why is Chongqing special? Sure. So if you're looking at – Chongqing is very famous for – and Chengdu as well for its spicy foods and spices.

There's the two main types. There's the law and the mala, which is like law is more like a regular spice. We're thinking like your jalapenos or maybe even a little more than that.

But mala is this, the schwa jiao, the Sichuan peppercorn, and it's the numbing spice. Like they used to even use it as Novocaine in ancient times. But it really has a unique flavor. So sometimes it's ground up as a powder. Sometimes it's just boiled into your stuff. And it does give it a neat flavor, which you may or may not appreciate right away, but it will grow on you. I enjoy it quite a bit now.

But yeah, so hot pot is this big, big pot where you're probably sticking to the middle clear part where it's not going to be spicy stuff if you're coming, unless you love, love spicy, spicy stuff. But the outside is going to be all full of

flavor and hua jiao and they'll boil it all up in there. So make sure if you're if you are coming to visit, let your people know how spicy you want things because that hot pot can be pretty spicy. It might be more than you're expecting. Man, when I come down to Chongqing, let's definitely get together. If you come to Beijing, let me know. We can I sure will. We can go to some hot pot here and you can make fun of it. I'm sure it'll be fine.

Well, you know, everywhere, every city has some Chongqing hot pot restaurants and they're just. I see it everywhere. Yeah. After I went to. We were out here. Even in China. Oh, there's another Chongqing restaurant. Another Chongqing restaurant. So I tried it and I was like, oh, this is good. Then I went to Chongqing. It's like, wow, this is a whole other level. They know what they're doing. Yeah. Yeah. They've certainly been mastering that for many years. They've got the fame for a reason. Thank you for your time. Thank you so much for your time, Dr. Frank Stonier.

Well, glad to join you again. Great to see you.