The Washington Family Brings 'The Piano Lesson' To Film
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Hi, it's Terry Gross. Before we start our show, I want to take a minute to remind you that it's Almost Giving Tuesday, which is so named because it's become a day of expressing gratitude by giving money or any kind of help to an individual or group or organization that matters to you.

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Thank you. And thanks to everyone who's already supporting us. And now, on with the show. This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. And today my guests are Malcolm and John David Washington. The brothers collaborated on the late August Wilson's The Piano Lesson for the screen on Netflix. It's the fourth play in Wilson's American Century Cycle, a series of 10 plays that captures the Black American experience through every decade of the 20th century.

Malcolm serves as the director, and John David stars as the brash, impulsive, and fast-talking boy Willie, who wants to sell the family piano to buy land in Mississippi that his family was enslaved on. The family battle ensues between boy Willie and his sister Bernice, played by Danielle Deadweiler, who wants the family to hold on to the piano, a family heirloom engraved with their ancestors' faces.

The production of this film was a family affair. The brothers' sister Katia and their father, Oscar-winning Denzel Washington, are producers. And Denzel, who starred and co-produced in Wilson's Fences, has committed to adapting Wilson's plays into 10 films. Their mother, Pauletta Washington, even appears in the movie, starring as Mama Ola.

The Piano Lesson is Malcolm Washington's directorial debut for a feature film, and John David portrayed Boy Willie in the Broadway revival of The Piano Lesson. He's also starred in several films, including Spike Lee's Black Klansman and Christopher Nolan's time-travel mind-bender Tenet. John David and Malcolm Washington, welcome to Fresh Air.

Thank you for having us. Hello. Yeah, thank you. That was quite an introduction. I was like, whoa. Well, I want to get right into our discussion about the film by playing a clip. And the story takes place in 1936.

Bernice, played by Danielle Deadweiler, lives in Pittsburgh with a piano. And her brother, boy Willie, played by you, John David, is a sharecropper in their hometown of Mississippi. And he's driven up to Pittsburgh in hopes of persuading Bernice to sell. And their uncle, played by Samuel L. Jackson, explains why Bernice won't do it. He speaks first. Let's listen. Bernice ain't gonna sell that piano cause her daddy died over it.

All that's in the past. If my daddy had seen where he could have traded that piano for some land of his own, we'd be sitting up here now. We spent this whole lot farming somebody else's land. I ain't gonna do that. That was my guest today, John David Washington, with Samuel L. Jackson in the Netflix film The Piano Lesson, directed by my other guest, Malcolm Washington.

You know, this is such a Black American story that endures that yearning to pass down items of value up against this very real and often desperate need to sell for practical reasons or in Boy Willie's case, to gamble towards this American dream of owning land. And I want to start by asking you, Malcolm, what was it about this story that you felt was not only enduring, but an urgent one that needed to be retold now?

Yeah, I think it's really, really, really important for people to learn their history, both ancestral and just culturally. Know where you come from and acknowledge it because we're living in a time where

People are trying to rewrite history or erase people from history and their contributions. So it's kind of incumbent upon all of us to reclaim our stories, you know, and proclaim them and declare them, who we are as a people, who we are as a culture and identity. All these things are super urgent to reclaim. You also wanted to bring a modern touch to this. And I mean, August Wilson is one of the greatest playwrights of our time. So, I mean, this material is just ripe, but...

I can imagine that's also intimidating, possibly. What was your first step in bringing your director's touch to what is well-established material? Yeah, it was intimidating, but it was also very exciting. The first step

was putting this in a context, right? A historical context. Understanding the moment that the play was written in, the moment that it's speaking to, that it's set in. It was about learning as much as I could about August Wilson, his considerations as a writer, who he was as a man, where he's from, what he stood on, his belief system.

understand all these things about him and his intentions so that you can kind of pass it through the prism of yourself and bring your voice to it, but always trying to serve this kind of bigger thing. John David, in the scene that we played, you were in character with Samuel L. Jackson, who actually originally played Boy Willie in 1987. And in this film, he plays the uncle to Bernice and Boy Willie. And

His performance, it's quiet, it's contemplative, it's

He exudes kind of like this wise knowing as he watches you. And for me, it was a little bit emotional. I'm like going through this moment where I'm looking at all of our actors as we move through time and they age. It was just emotional to watch knowing his history with the character. What was it like for you to watch him watch you both in the Broadway version and in this movie?

That's an interesting observation because I think that was happening for me too, just his relationship to the play, which he's been very public about. And what he represents as a black African-American actor in this industry, there was a lot of things working at the same time.

Well, we can start with the word intimidating. Right. You know, pressure filled is some words also that come to mind when thinking about or reflecting about my experience, particularly on stage every night saying these words that he's perfected, that he helped me.

sort of erect and and get to Broadway you know so um there was a lot of pressure there but I felt so encouraged because of um how he supported us he was a great resource you know um

All of his experience in the art, in this industry, he was very forthcoming about. He shared. And I didn't know at the time how that was going to help me with the character necessarily, but as I gradually got into it and grew into the character, I realized how much, how beneficial it was for me to hear those stories and infuse that into the motivation of getting this thing as true as possible. He was supportive of you guys talking to you about, like, the industry and the craft, but, like...

Did he talk to you about this character or did he kind of leave that to you to interpret it?

Things that were working, he would comment on. Like, I never thought to do it that way or I never thought about it this way. And he said that. And if you know Mr. Sam Jackson, he's a tough critic. So any kind of positive feedback from him is like I'm taken to my grave. If I never work again, I know Sam Jackson like the choice I made. You know what I mean? So in that regard, yeah, he was influential in my encouragement of I'm on the right track.

I'm really curious, John David, why do you think actors in particular are drawn to Wilson's work kind of as a way to deepen their craft? I'm thinking about all of the actors that are really well known today who have gone through and done these plays. Courtney B. Vance, James Earl Jones, Viola Davis, your father Denzel, so many others. What is the gravitational pull of

I think so often we have to dig when we find really good writing, great writing. We still have to dig. These names you're talking about, we have to dig. We have to find it. We excavate. We research. And we have to meet a lot of the writing, the really good writing, somewhere. August Wilson comes to us, and it's a relief when you get a voice that is yours, when you get a voice that is somebody you're related to.

When you get an experience that both a 50-year-old, 7-year-old man, 20 to 40-year-old man have, there's so many specific moments in our culture that he accurately depicts. I'm talking about when every N-word is propagandized.

properly placed you know it's this there's magic to that to be honest so those that gravitational pull you speak of it's almost like a relief call if we meet august wilson with our best and most honest self and experience um you will come out a different actor your names malcolm and john david um where do those names come from i can kind of guess with malcolm but i want to be sure

Well, I guess I'll start because mine's a little more controversial, if you will. I found out what I mean is I'll explain. So John David, from what I thought known until I was about 17, was my Uncle David and my great grandfather, John.

One night after a victory, it was a high school football game and we beat our rivals and we're one game away from state championship. We're very excited. We're all happy. We're home celebrating and just screaming out loud how great of a victory it was.

And my father, in his joy and great glee, he says, that's why I named you John David, after John David Crowe, a football player. And the record scratched. Because I guess that was the first time my mom heard that. Definitely the first time I heard that. I didn't mind it. That's cool. But mom was like, what? And then she got quiet. And it's interesting how...

quietness can bring on like more anger than yelling, you know? And you could tell she was disturbed by that a little bit. She was like, but Denzel, I thought he was named after Uncle David, your brother, and Grandpa John. And he's kind of like, yeah, yeah, but the truth is, but really, it was a combination. They had different stories on it. They had different stories, yeah. Malcolm X, is that who you were named after or not? Actually, no.

No, I'm named after, he's a cousin of mine, but our dynamic and age, he's like an uncle. My cousin Malcolm from Eden, North Carolina. All right, big ups to cousin Malcolm. Yeah. And John David Crowe, by the way. Don't leave John David Crowe out. Right, that's right. Both cousins. Right, right.

You know, I noticed how in interviews, both of you guys, you kind of say it offhandedly, but you regularly rep Los Angeles as your hometown. And I want to know, what does it mean for the both of you to identify not only as Angelenos, but, you know, you're Black Angelenos. And then you also come from like a very privileged section of that then as well. I mean, how did growing up here influence your art and your taste? Yeah.

I love LA so much. I think LA is just an incredible city. There's so many amazing cultures that come together there. It's a place that's both a physical place and metaphysical in that when people think about it, there's an idea of what LA is and then there's kind of a lived experience of what LA is. I like that it operates on a couple different fronts. I think that it...

It functions kind of like how Pittsburgh functions in our story, The Piano Lesson, where it's a place, especially for black people, it's a place where in the Great Migration, so many black people came in search of opportunity to build a new life, to build themselves up. So it's a place built off of not only the hopes, but the labor of dreams. You know, like somebody had to build that place. And I think that it lives in that, you know.

You know, as a kid growing up in the 90s, your father Denzel, Spike Lee, Samuel L. Jackson, I'll even throw in like Eddie Murphy and just so many people. They played such a big role in the construction of Black Pride for so many, myself included. And I'm just...

I really want to know how that felt internally to grow up among it and in it. Like, was Black history and Black pride also something that your parents instilled in you in the way that, like, just to the public, they were instilling in all of us?

Absolutely. I grew up with such a strong consciousness. And you got to remember, I grew up in the era of my dad having played Malcolm X. So I identify with Malcolm X as a figure. I identify with that part of our story. And growing up in LA in the 90s,

post-LA uprising, you know, where black people have a voice. They're fighting for something. They're believing in something. They're saying something. I connected to that so much.

So that, it's like how Boy Willie says, you know, I was born in a time of fire. I feel that too. You know, that resonates with me from both the creative artistic movements that were happening at the time, the political movements that were happening at the time, of people declaring themselves and who they are at the time. And so all of those things live in me. And I'm happy that my parents had such a pride in our culture, have such a respect for it and instilled that in us. Yeah. John David, yeah.

Yeah, I was just thinking about your question in my childhood. My first time I played Pop Warner football, tackle football, was Bowling Hills.

Baldwin Hills is a neighborhood in Los Angeles for those who don't know. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And, but yet I was going to school in the Valley, you know, and, you know, I remember the first time I got chased down by some Crips, you know, in Los Angeles with a friend of mine, you know, remember first time being asked where, where are you from, you know, and where your mom, all that, like there's a Kendrick part of it too. He's like, well, where your mom stay, where your grandma stay. I've experienced that before. Yeah.

you know, at Magic Johnson's movie theater. So, um, what would you tell people? Cause I mean, were you saying, Oh, I'm Denzel Washington's son. I would absolutely not say that. You know, it was funny. Like, and it was depicted in the wood, like, uh, the character says I'm from North Carolina. I would say that I'm like, I'm actually, I would deny where I,

I would deny where I was from and say I was from another state a lot of times. But I forget why they were chasing us at one time. It was a friend of mine that started stuff. Yeah, you know why. I do know why, actually. I'm not going to call him out here. But I think about some of those memories of my L.A. experience because it is an interesting one because of the blends of cultures that I was able to experience. You know, going to private school, yet playing ball, bowling hills, having friends that lived in different neighborhoods, you

You know, I just got a full course meal in diversity. Yeah. And how to navigate. I mean, that is definitely an experience. Well, and what helped me with that navigation was sports, was athletics. No matter where you're from, like they respect you if you put work on, if you put in work on the field or on the court.

You actually become more interesting to that person that maybe not from the same background that you're from, but you're a killer on the court or on the field, that they know that you have their back and they can trust you. There's something about that. There's a universal language in sport and athletics that really helped me with my identity and helped me sort of course correct and navigate relationships I had from people that weren't from where I was from.

Sports is a unifying force, for sure. It also is like really high pressure. And I mean, all jobs are performances, but like sports and the creative space, particularly acting, like a bad sports play or a bad acting performance could make or break a career, right? I mean, both of you seem to thrive from that pressure. Yeah.

What is it in you, in the both of you, that maybe thrives from that pressure? John David? Thrives from it? Well, I'm still kind of living. I don't know. Yeah, you're one bad performer. You say it like that. I mean, a lot of it, this felt like life and death for me. I don't mean to get too dramatic, but this project, the play specifically, I knew on the other side of this, I'm going to find out about myself. And I did have these real conversations with myself about

and my publicist, that if I fall, I don't know if I get back up from this. Really? Why? I did feel like, well, because of how powerful and how important and how we hold August Wilson's words and his artistry. And being on the boards, as they call it on Broadway,

You know, there's a lot more respect. There's a different kind of respect you get from your peers, from the community at large that are in the artistry if you can actually act. I've said this before. I liken it to a rapper. I've been able to work with the Dr. Dre's and the Pharrell's and, you know, the Timberlands of the world as producers. But like, can you actually rap? Do you have bars? And that's what this was going. That's what I needed to find out for myself. And so I felt a lot of pressure in that way. How do you make yourself comfortable with rejection?

Through repetition. I've had plenty of experiences with rejection. I'm very familiar with rejection. I've almost gotten comfortable to the point of where it becomes almost like an impervious feeling. And so my whole life, we're talking about our L.A. upbringing and stuff. It does feel that...

I felt like I might not have been able to be seen. I got rejected in my real personality sometimes, so I felt like I could hide it or I can filter that through those feelings, through sport, through activity to enact my resentment that build up for how I was, you know, and my interactions. So rejection is a byproduct of pursuing what you love and what you love doing. I want to slow that down a little bit, that resentment that you're talking about. What do you mean when you say that? So...

If I got judged by somebody because they knew who I was related to and where I was from,

I felt like I can introduce them or reintroduce them to me. I can reintroduce myself as this athlete on the field or as this actor on screen or stage. I don't necessarily use that as motivation anymore, but I did. And I found success in it and I found my identity in that, that I was finding respect from people, right?

Outside of your father's name. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Our guests today are director Malcolm Washington and actor John David Washington. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.

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This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley, and today my guests are director Malcolm Washington and actor John David Washington. The brothers collaborated on the late August Wilson's The Piano Lesson for the screen on Netflix. It's the fourth play in Wilson's American Century Cycle, a series of 10 plays that capture the American experience for Black people through every decade of the 20th century.

Malcolm Washington has produced and written several short films. The Piano Lesson is his directorial full-length feature debut. John David portrayed Boy Willie for the first time on Broadway and now plays him in the film. He also starred in several other films, including Spike Lee's Black Klansman, the mystery comedy thriller Amsterdam, and Christopher Nolan's time travel mind-bender Tenet.

John David, you were a pro football player with the St. Louis Rams in the early 2000s. You also spent four years as a running back for the United Football League, Sacramento Mountain Lions. But when you were playing pro, you got injured. What happened? I tore my Achilles and ruptured it, my right Achilles. And that was it, retirement.

That's when I transitioned into acting. Opened an audition call for a football player for a show called Ballers. They were auditioning football players all over the country. And that was my way in. Is it true that you showed up with like your cast or boot or something to the HBO Ballers audition? Yeah, yeah, yeah. With the boot on pain pills. So I was very relaxed, to say the least. And I had my first audition with Sheila Jaffe.

Well, Ballers...

It's great. You were phenomenal in that, for that to be like your first major role. Your character in Ballers had this attachment to his college number 18. And he had all of these attachments, his first championship, his plays, his accomplishments that were like, they were like steps. They were like a process to get, you know, for his identity. And it's what you're talking about as far as you forging your identity for

What was that process of letting that go and turning towards that new thing, that new identity, that identity that you kind of were running from, from your father's identity, but now you were stepping into it as a novice? Yeah.

Okay, doctor. Yeah. It's, uh, well, it was, it was, you know, these collaborations that I've been able to experience. These, some of the sets, some of these films I got to be a part of and these giants I've gotten to work with who I revere so high. I think they're, you know, uh,

Hollywood gods, you know, and them giving me the confidence in myself, them wanting to treat me like a colleague, you know, trusting my instincts, picking me for a reason. And the way they use me, literally the way they've edited me in their films and the way they've, you know, it's small things, but there's a couple moments in Black Klansman that were happening.

Just naturally, I was just going riffing and Spike used it. You know what I mean? Like he just he put it he put it in the film. And so it's one thing to tell you trust and, you know, they trust you and all that. But then they used it in that way. I was like, oh, man, maybe I am enough. And that really helped me, my confidence going forward. Do you remember the lines that you ad-libbed for Spike that got left to end?

Oh, yeah. I believe we can with the right white man. We can do anything. I think the line originally was with the right man or we can we can. I think I believe we can with the right man. And I added with the right white man, we can do anything. Which is really apt for this story. It was so appropriate. It just came out. I don't know where it came from. I just said it.

And he kept it because I think in my face, too, you could tell like I'm just in it. Like it was just like a flowing thing. And he used it. I couldn't believe it. Yeah. That also happened in Tenet, right? Christopher Nolan's film for Tenet. You you did a couple of ad libs and things that he was really impressed with.

Well, he I got a laugh and I would have lived with that. I can I can go to my grave knowing I made Christopher Nolan laugh in a line that I contributed to, you know, and he we did it a couple more times, did it differently. But but same in the same line. And he used it. There's other times, too, where there's another scene that, you know, there's some emotional stuff started to happen. And, you know, I don't know if that take was for me. I was just I just felt something.

And he used it in a massive close-up. I was like, oh, my God. Like, I can't believe it, you know? So, and it was just, you know, he was, again, telling me throughout the process that he trusts my instincts and, like, I trust you for a reason. But he also used it in the film. So, and he showed me what he meant. I guess he showed me what he meant, you know, with some of those scenes. So, you know, that was kind of the process of me, like, you know what? Okay. Yeah.

Yeah, I can. I can. It's I'm better served to go another route in my motivation. And that was the other one. Other stuff is bad fuel. Malcolm, you you got to be on the set of Tenet, right? You visited the set. I did visit. I visited for an afternoon. You laugh. You got to tell the story. It was kind of an emotional experience, right? It was so dope. It was so dope. I'm a big Chris Nolan fan, you know, in our our community.

generation of film goers he's like you know one of those guys we came you know from following Memento like all of them I watch all of his films and know them know them well and he has he creates worlds you know so when you visit his set it feels like you're in his world like everything just looks like

Like, if they weren't shooting there and you opened your eyes there and you found yourself there, you'd be like, this feels like a Christopher Nolan movie. It's just, you know, dripping in his personality, it feels like, and his aesthetic. So it was really exciting to go and see my brother at work. And when I got there, there was...

A woman called Arielle that I worked with, she went to AFI with me. She, she used to production design my shorts actually. So it was really crazy being in a Nolan set with Arielle, who's assistant art directing and my brothers on set. And they're shooting in this like shipping container. So you can't really see anything. They're just like people in a box and you kind of get this feeling that something's going to happen. And some, a monitor emerges and I get to see it, see some of the stuff on that they're shooting. And yeah,

I like, Hoyta frames up the camera and I see my brother doing something probably really mundane. It was like you were like opening like a door. It was like very, like nothing was happening. And he frames up and I hear Chris Nolan say John David's name and gives him a note. And I just burst into tears because it was like,

whoa, this is like, it just hit me like a ton of bricks. Like this is, this is a kind of moment that we've been thinking, like when we, when we live together, we dreamed together too. You know, we talked about, we talked about wanting to do stuff like that, you know, wanting to be in a movie like that. So when he, seeing that image and hearing those sounds and knowing that world and everything just kind of converged on itself in that moment. And I have, you know, somebody from my film school right next to me and she put her hand on me and

And was like, it's okay. And I was just like, this is too much. It was just overwhelming. It was so overwhelming. I feel like you... Didn't you...

break down when we all kind of stand like after the scene we were all standing together I didn't know I didn't break down but you got embarrassed because so so they shoot and they they walk out they break for lunch and they all walk off the set and I like jump in front of Chris I'm like yo thank you for your contribution because I'm like you know I'm somebody I love movies like I really love this stuff you know so the people that make movies that make me feel something or think about like they mean a lot to me like I feel like I owe them something you know

and these films feel like they become yours as an audience member. It's like, that's my, like, that was my, like, I watched Phantom Thread and The Master. I'm like, you know, these are my movies. So when I see people like that, I tell them, I'm like, yo, thank you. Like, thank you, thank you, thank you for everything you've done. And I did that, but it was like,

not that moment everybody's at work like they're trying to get to lunch and I look at John David just drops his head like dog like nah man I just nah not right now Mr. Nolan's trying to get his ribs they got ribs today sir what do you do he's like holding the monitor like I appreciate it man but can you step out the way excuse my younger brother please yeah it was so funny it was so funny but he was gracious thank god yeah

Our guests today are director Malcolm Washington and actor John David Washington. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air. This message comes from Showtime original series, The Agency, on Paramount+.

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This is Fresh Air, and today my guests are director Malcolm Washington and actor John David Washington. Both of you have had experiences of being on set with your parents. John David, I think you've told stories about being on the set of Glory and also Philadelphia, right? Oh yeah, yes I have. What do you remember the most about those experiences?

Well, like I'd like to echo what Malcolm said. I mean, movies are, I might take it too seriously. Like, I mean, they were a huge part of my life. They're part of my upbringing. Some of these movies, you know, helped raise me. You know, I had the blue suit.

I got for Christmas. For Christmas one year, all I wanted was a blue suit and a new VHS glory tape because I broke it because I watched it so many times. How old were you when you wanted that? I think six, maybe. Something like that. It was 88, 89. Something like that. But on glory, yeah, I've told this story before where I remember being on set. I might have been five or something like that.

And it's directed by Ed Zwick. There's this huge sequence, this battle scene at the end. The 54th is marching over this fort that they have to take. And I think we're in South Carolina. And, you know, there's a lot of sand traps and sand dunes and it's like explosives and, well, I guess fireworks and fake explosives, power techniques. And we're sitting somewhat in the distance at Video Village and it's night out.

out. All you can see is darkness and then the light coming from the fireworks and the light, kind of like the opening beat of our movie. And I see my dad coming from the ashes, comes up over top of the hill looking all dirty and heroic in his blue suit. And he says to me, John David, you want to come on set?

And I geek up. I look at my mom and she shakes her head. She didn't even say no. She shakes her head no. She didn't even say no. I was devastated. That one hurt a lot.

And I remember that so specifically. Like, I couldn't have been more than five years old. Did she say why? Did she say why you couldn't go? It's coming up on Thanksgiving. When I see her on Thanksgiving, I'm going to ask her. It never occurred to me to ask her why. But I'm thinking she's going to deny that happened. She's going to deny her saying no. She's probably going to say it's something else happened. You know what I'm saying? She'll blame me or Pops. And I know Pops was—I remember my dad wanted me there. Yeah.

So, yeah, that was a great memory. But that was one of my favorite films of all time. So, yeah, that was a great, great memory. Did you get the blue suit? I did. I did. Did you wear it in like play? You know what's wild too? Yeah. Is the woman that made that suit was a costume designer on that film. Her name is Francine, Miss Francine. Miss Francine. Miss Francine was our costume designer on that.

on the piano lesson. It was like a full circle moment. That's pretty amazing. You were going to mention Philadelphia, too. You were on the set of. Oh, yeah, Philadelphia. I remember being in some of the courtroom scenes. And I believe one time I got to yell action. Jonathan Demme yelled action once. That's cool. Yeah, that was really, really cool. There's a story that my dad tells, though, about that movie. I've been watching that a lot lately. It's one of my favorites. I think it's

one of my dad's most underrated performances. It was incredible. I think you can't get Tom Hanks' performance without what my dad did. They just worked hand in hand. It was remarkable work. And he talked about this story with Jonathan Demme, how there's this big scene, and it was sort of a wide shot of him kind of explaining the point of the film. The lines goes along like along the lines of

Let's talk about what this case is really all about. The general public's hatred, our loathing, our fear of homosexuals. And that hatred and that fear led to a particular firing of my client, Andrew Beckett. And he talked about that scene because it's such a powerful monologue in that moment. And then, you know, the moment that happened, he said he did a cartwheel first before he approached the bench.

And what was so interesting about that story is Jonathan Demme didn't judge him. He didn't question him. He said, oh, that was interesting. And then they had a laugh afterwards because Pops was saying he just wanted to know,

if you can trust him, that he has freedom to do stuff. He's obviously not going to do a cartwheel, but do you trust me? And I thought that was so interesting because in that film, Jonathan Demme and he are having the same language, that character. I could feel the trust in the edits and the way he was captured in that film. And that story sort of depicted the feeling that I get from watching my dad in that film. So I thought that was a cool story that Pop shared with me, some insights.

That is a cool story. And I'm wondering how it informs your acting, your process when you are on set with others and like you're building that trust too, you know?

Well, I don't think I'll ever need a cartwheel to test the parameters of our trust. Well, you do some questionable things, dude. You be barking. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. That is true. What's the barking about? You know we're about to shoot. Oh, boy. He just starts barking like crazy right before we start shooting. Like, right? Sound up. Camera roll. Sound roll. What's that about, John David? What is that about?

That's a good question. I don't know. I mean, to break up the how precious this is sometimes. You know what it is? What I love about acting is the examination and exploration of this of the psychological life of a human being to to to play human beings and explore that.

And there's something about making sure you're alive and well, checking in on yourself before you get into this thing that's this thing we do. I think that's part of it. Some of it is to take away from the stiffness. Some of it is to take away from or to add that this is fun. You know, it's a lot of it is for me to make sure I am aware of.

And then make sure I'm not thinking at all. Do not think. Try to be in the moment. So a lot of that, some of that. But I don't know. I don't have a definitive answer for you. If you're just joining us, my guests today are John David and Malcolm Washington. We're talking about their new film, The Piano Lesson. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.

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It's almost Thanksgiving. And if you're hosting this year, how well do you know how to cook the main event? A turkey, in the grand scheme of things, not actually that hard. There's just a couple little things you have to keep in mind. Requires a little bit of planning ahead. On a new episode of Life Kit, we talk turkey. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

This is Fresh Air, and today I'm talking to Malcolm and John David Washington. The brothers have taken on the late playwright August Wilson's play, The Piano Lesson, for the screen on Netflix. I want to ask you guys about something else, and I want to see if I can formulate it right, but like...

How do you deal with the heat of fandom and desire? Because, I mean, your dad, for instance, is not only a great actor. You're already laughing, but your dad's already, you know, of course he's a great actor, but he's also like every mom and every auntie's crush. And...

Fine in every generation, right? Fine in every generation, right. And now you guys are continuing the torch. I actually just picked up an L.A. magazine and John David, you're on the cover looking like a sex symbol, you know? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Let the people know. Oh, boy. Just let them not know. Okay. Let's see.

I'm just curious. What's the question? Period. No. What did, like, I'm wondering, what did your dad teach you or what lessons did you learn from watching him when it comes to navigating that energy and that heat that like throngs of fans throw towards you? Because, I mean, I can't even imagine what your DMs might be like, you know? Oh my God. Yeah.

Who's listening to this? Let's keep it... Honestly, what I think about childhood memories, my dad bringing home a trumpet. I remember him, he dyed his hair red, getting ready for Red and Malcolm X. There was him walking me around the streets of New York reciting Shakespeare when he was getting ready for Richard III. So I've always been...

fascinated with that. My mom sat down and played a number, a classical number on the piano without reading the notes. You know, it's... I think about that, you know, of that really. I think that's the relationship. That's what was being taught. It seems like it was always, to me, it's always been about the work. That's what they both teach us. They both teach you that, but like, there's no denying that there's also that other thing. And I just want to know how you navigate it, both of you. I think that they just like, they were so...

protective of themselves first and us as well. You know, like they kept, they always just highlight like keeping the noise outside. And I think that heat and desire that you're speaking of can be that noise, you know, and I think that we all just live very kind of meaningful private lives. And,

I, um, I don't have that heat and desire in my DMS. It's, it's, uh, so I don't have to deal with it. You know, I don't have to deal with it in the same way John David does as a, as an actor and his face is out there all the time. But I think that they just, aren't you on GQ? Wasn't there a GQ? Wouldn't you live perfectly with your well moisturized lips and I was more in the goatee and the hair was herring. It was a full beard. Yeah. The braids were braiding. Yeah. Okay. Um,

But for real, I think it's just like the kind of focus and protection of your peace and yourself and not kind of getting swept up in all the other stuff. They made it clear, too, that like this is theirs. Y'all got to earn yours. You know what I mean? It's like it's them taking us to school. It's my dad coaching us. Like we were living together.

somewhat of, I think, a normal life because that's the environment they set. We celebrated Christmas. We would go trick-or-treating on Halloween. You know, it was a lot of that going on.

You make such a strong point and it's beautiful to see, but every chance you get, you remind people that you're the sons of both Denzel and Pauletta. They'd be trying to erase my mom over here. It's crazy. It's just more of a reaction, I guess. We love our parents. We love both of them and...

You know what saddens me sometimes about that is like, man, just like the role that mothers play, that black women play in our culture, that black mothers play, it's like such a crucial one. And they're often such an overlooked position sometimes. Like people don't give them their flowers. Right.

Yeah, we're going to give our mom our flowers. We love her. She's done so much for us. And to piggyback on that, to celebrate the woman she was before she was a mother, before she was a wife. Both my brother and her have their masters in the artistry, the only ones in the family that do. So that's important to me too. We both carry that with us when we approach the art. That's part of the reason we love it as well, knowing that she's an artist in her own right.

So it's to piggyback on what you said, because I think that's a great point about women. Yeah. What's her reaction to you guys making that statement and stating it so clear? Because as a mother, I just always smile. Like, I want my children to be speaking my name out in the world like that. And can you imagine? You know what I mean? Can you imagine? It's like they've gotten to like an impossible situation. You know, it's like my dad...

Growing up, first at Harlem and then Mount Vernon and just kind of like where he's ascended to in his life.

You'd be claiming Harlem like that? Yeah. What you mean? Harlem, Harlem, Harlem. And then God forbid he meets somebody from Mount Vernon and then it's like, what's Harlem, you know? But yeah, you know, they both overcome and made such incredible lives for themselves. And I think we carry pride of coming from such strong, you know, people that live a purposeful life. Yeah. Yeah.

John David, the older you get, the more and more you sound like your dad. Do you guys get confused at all in listening, like on the phone or no? Yes. I used to call the house. I,

I used to call the house and of course you have that, that thing with your, you know, when you're, when you're 16, 17, maybe staying out a little late or something, or the report card came in and it wasn't perfect. And you call the house and you're like, Oh, I hope, I hope my sister picks up. I hope my brother picks up. And John David would pick up, but he would sound just like my dad. Hello. Oh my goodness. I would get some, I would stand straight up. I guess I can't deny. It's always been like that. Yeah. Yeah.

Do you think you'll adapt any more of August Wilson's plays? You know what? I think that there's a really wonderful thing happening now where so far there's three films, there's been three different filmmakers and three different voices that have come to them and each of the films kind of reflect the voice of the filmmaker so far. Like my dad with Fences, Mr. Wolf with, you know, he's an incredible theater director and I think that you can see that talent at work in Ma Rainey.

My voice is different from theirs. I think you see that in Piano Lesson. So I hope that for the rest of them, they continue to get varied voices from different backgrounds and different kind of points of view and let this whole thing be a much larger kind of project where you look back and it's this tapestry of Black artists working this time, connecting to this seminal texts.

Malcolm Washington and John David Washington, this was such a pleasure to talk with both of you, and thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Yeah, great conversation. I appreciate it. Malcolm and John David Washington, their adaptation of August Wilson's play, The Piano Lesson, is now on Netflix. ♪

so

On tomorrow's show, Ira Gershwin wrote some of the best-known lyrics in the American popular songbook, including Love Is Here To Stay, Swonderful, Fascinating Rhythm, Embraceable You, and I've Got a Crush on You. We'll talk with Michael Owen, author of Ira Gershwin, A Life in Words, and his book,

And we'll listen to some great music. I hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air.

Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorrock. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producers are Molly C.V. Nesper and Sabrina Siewert. Susan Yakundi directed today's show.

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