Werner gets called out publicly
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Hello everybody and welcome back to The View from the Lane, the multi-award winning top-of-the-moss-per-podcast from The Athletic. About that, it's about the time of year when we'll start to be nominated for absolutely tons of awards.

This year, don't bother voting, just clap your hands into a Zoom call and you'll win by acclamation, whatever that word means. But that's the new way to win things, apparently, in football. Now, a little bit like Tottenham, we're down to the bare bones. But unlike Spurs, we have a fabulous substitute bench for you, making his return demanded by the public. I'm delighted to say I'm joined by the Athletics' Charlie Eccleshare. Hello, Charlie. Hello, Charlie.

Hello, how are you doing? I'm very good, thank you. I'm very glad to be working with you again. And a large peel of trumpets after many, many huge and vital contributions to the podcast, making his full debut from the Athessia. Again, it's Seb Stafford-Bloor. Hello, Seb. Hello, Danny. All those trumpets are making me nervous now. Yeah, I presume you're almost overwhelmed by the honour here, aren't you? A little bit, yeah. Okay. I'll do my best.

Well, first of all, the positives. I'll start with the positives. They didn't lose, and the goalkeeper is still a good man for stopping a shot. I have to give him credit there, Fraser Forster. I was heartbroken when Vicario went down. So far, he has proven a very able deputy indeed. I'll start with you, Charlie, because you know the rhythm of the podcast, and Seb can join in later. What did you make of it in the round overall?

I think it was one of those games where you just... It's so about the result, given how much Spurs are struggling with unavailabilities. And I think as a result, it's kind of okay. It keeps them with a reasonable chance of getting...

in the top eight and not having to play those extra games. It was fairly uninspiring. I mean, given what's happened recently and given the players missing, I don't think many fans would have had expectations of this being a kind of rip-roaring Spurs performance in a tough away game. To come away with a draw was all right. And the fact that they came back, you know, we've seen so many away games where once it's got away from them, that's just it. So at least there was, you know, that positive to take from them that...

They didn't lose and they've kind of stopped the rot a little bit. Seb, I think there'll be many...

as I've explained before we started, the role that Charlie has played over the years is to drag people like me and James Moore off of the ledge we occupy when Spurs don't do well or don't play well in particular. The result is often difficult to get in football. When he says, you know, it was uninspiring, I don't know, I don't want to lead the witness. I found that an understatement. Yeah, I think I'd go with you, Danny. I thought it was quite dispiriting, mainly because it was a callback to...

some of those european performances where you went into it as a fan thinking okay so like five six players in that team have a chance to sort of prove something maybe you know bust their way into into the premier league side and it was insipid right like i i understand that there were absentees there were less fatigue clearly there's a lot of fatigue there's been a lot of games and you know there's a lot of difficulties playing players out of position never

never often goes well, but I thought Spurs had enough on the pitch to be better than they were. And it was also dispiriting to see that

it only really improved when slanky came on because you came on it's the same old dependencies and uh you're right like i think fraser force has been really good since he came in he's played as well as i could possibly have imagined him playing and they'd have lost had he not made that save right at the end brilliant block and actually he made um he made that good tip over he has a very strange goalkeeping style where he sort of stands and stretches himself and you know he doesn't doesn't seem to move a lot but he's pulled out on that so well done him

I remember feeling increasingly unhappy as I was watching it. How's that? Just to that point about the needing the big players to come and rescue. I remember writing a piece in September 2021 about that very topic and how it was a recurring theme then. And that was three years ago. And that was in a League Cup game against Wolves. And I think Kane was left on the bench or so on, or maybe both of them. And sure enough, yep.

no, we can't do it without you. Can you come and rescue it? And it's like, I don't know, it's like kids who feel like, oh no, we'll be fine. We don't need the parents. We can get to it. And then they get a bit scared at about 10 p.m. and actually like, oh, can you come and fetch me? This wasn't quite what I thought. I'm outside the kebab shop, yeah. That's a really good point, because I know there are absentees and I know there are problems at the heart of defence, but okay, so Archie Gray is playing in a role that he doesn't have a lot of experience in. And let's be fair to the context,

whenever an English team go and play in Scotland it's going to be quite fierce and we don't get Scottish football over here in Germany I don't know much about Rangers season to this point but they played pretty well and they were vibrant and energetic and you

They've been bang average until the last two weeks. They're third place behind Aberdeen and Celtic, but they have picked up and won their four previous games going into this match. But they've done much better in Europe, Seb, it's fair to say. Okay, okay. But then you look at the Spurs lineup, there's enough on that pitch to be better than that. Both fullbacks were available. Midfield's pretty good. You should be able to get a tune out of that front three, really. The only issue is at the heart of defence,

And yet that really wasn't the only issue on the pitch. Listen, incidentally, it occurred to me during the game, handbrake turn, how much, and if this is an unoriginal thought, I can't apologize. There's seven and a half billion of us. You can't all have original thoughts. They should have given at the end of the game, the man of the match award for Fraser Foster should have been the form for Cal Pye. With his new facial hair, he looks more and more like Desperate Dan out of the children's comics back in the day. Look it up if you're too young. Oh, frankly, shockingly.

stupid to remember desperate Dan. Can I just raise something on Forster? And I do wonder this and you need a goalkeeper expert to flesh out what is just very much a theory. I do wonder a little bit. As good as he's been, I do wonder if the extent to which he kind of is generally pretty rooted to his line does invite some of the chances that Spurs are conceding. Do you know what I mean? Maybe that's unfair on him, but you know, he's not someone who's

Often a really good goalkeeper won't have to do a lot because...

You know, they distribute that bit better or they're that much more aggressive off their line. I do think he... I've always thought this with him. You know, dating back to that very first time where he caught the wider attention with that game against Barcelona. He does kind of attract shots in some ways because he is so tight to his line. He's quite old-fashioned in that way. As long as he's saving the shots, I guess it doesn't matter. I mean, he's been doing it for a long time. It is...

becoming more the norm. Look at Onana at Manchester United who does exactly the same thing.

And I saw a piece the other day with an actual goalkeeping expert, I think it was Shea Given, saying that they're being increasingly coached now to stay on their line. But the feeling is that, you know, positionally, and I don't get it, obviously, if a man of Fraser Forster's size walks two metres towards you, the visible size of the goal shrinks, doesn't it, by comparison? And we all know this, you're cutting down the angles.

Apparently, that's not the way they're being taught completely at the moment. But you make a reasonable point, I think. Although, right now, Charlie, I think any criticism of Fraser Forster has to be tempered with what's the alternative. And he still has got that thing of,

Shots hit him because he's a big man. And also, he stops. I mean, the save. I thought the TV commentator, the save over his right-hand shoulder. He tips the ball over his fingertips. That almost went as routine save. That was a brilliant stop. The reflex was incredible, I thought. In so much so, it's caused my voice to go up two octaves. No, he's definitely doing well. I mean, yes, there are far bigger...

You know, it's a bit like the foundations of your house are crumbling and you're kind of like, oh, I think my fridge has a slight issue. Like he is not the problem right now. Let's be real. And incidentally, nor were the two centre-backs particularly, although they had a pretty good testing from the chap who got the goal, Ijman. I'm not sure how to pronounce his name. Yeah, Ijman. Let me ask you again, Charlie, then in the round,

That first half performance, you thought it was underwhelming. Seb is barely able to contain his volcanic anger, and I thought they were useless. I thought they were useless in the first half. I texted the producer at halftime to say, Spurs players look like they're made out of paper. The way they were being blown around by particularly Diamande and Raskin in midfield for Rangers. What was going wrong in the first half, Charlie? Well, I think it was one of those very disjointed moments

performances where there wasn't it didn't really look like a lot of the players were on the same page particularly there's a lack of coherence cohesion again something we've seen year after year in these kind of you know Europa League group games or early cup games where you make a few changes that said it was a pretty strong team and I do understand then the frustration you know

Because this wasn't like a nine changes kind of match where that sort of lack of cohesion is baked in. They weren't really anticipating things. And yeah, they were second to some of those 50-50s. I mean, in that Bournemouth game, my recurring image of

of that match. Every time the game restarted, it seemed to be an under-hit Spurs pass and about three Bournemouth players just jumping in, almost fighting each other out of the way to win the ball back. And yeah, that is something that you see quite a lot with this team. It just felt a bit directionless, almost as if they were waiting for Kulosevsky or Solanke to come on and give it a bit of focus and structure. I suppose we should congratulate the manager on this occasion.

for at least his substitutions, Seb, which he's been criticised for in the past, at least his substitutions, all of them,

to improve the team? I think you got it right. I sometimes do find myself wanting to be a bit more decisive and to make decisions a little bit earlier in the second half when things obviously aren't going well. It does feel like as if Spurs wait for their opposition to tweak their team first and then they want to react to that. It's just my perspective on it.

But it got better. But then like, okay, so the three of us are in the technical area last night and we're thinking, we're watching that game and thinking, what would make this better? Well, we'll put on Kulusevski and Solanke. Okay. I mean, that's not, that's not a, is that to be applauded? I mean, it's a good thing that it happened, definitely, but it's not, you knew which direction it was going to take because we've seen this so many times before. The good players come on and it gets better. A word here, Charlie, about Bergwale. Without turning into Andrea Pirlo,

that was probably his best cameo so far in a Spurs shirt because I didn't see the pre-season tour which I know Seb was caravanning from venue to venue in extreme luxury Bergfeld at least found spaces to hold and move the ball on yeah and he is a really exciting player um

No question. I think that's obviously the problem that him and Gray have had a bit. If they were additional extras sprinkled on top, then I think people would be more excited and enthusiastic about them. The problem is they were two of the biggest summer signings. The enthusiasm for them is tempered a little bit with the fact that, well, yeah, that's all well and good, but

what about the here and now? Like, you know, it's nice having these encouraging visions of the future, but that should be a bonus rather than kind of all we have. I think a lot of people are feeling, but yeah, that said he, he, he was good. He was able to show what he can do a little bit and he's got, I do love the way he can kind of drive forward with the ball. So effortlessly, it looks like he's got that, that,

a little bit of, uh, the Frankie Deong thing of where, you know, or when Deong was, you know, coming through, um, that, that ability. So yeah, that, that, that again was, was a positive, um,

Listen to us straining for the positives. I think, yeah, and I think as well, it is a shame in a way that he's having to have these cameos. Well, I mean, maybe it's good. Maybe he'll develop this way. But, you know, it's pretty high-pressure environment being relied on quite a lot. It's not the sort of, you know, go and have a start in the Carabao Cup and, you know, light up a game. It's kind of, we're really desperate and you kind of need to deliver here. Yeah, exactly. It's international rescue, isn't it? Yeah.

Seb, quick word. I mean, I've praised to the roof the Spurs fullbacks when they're doing well. I thought they were, and maybe I say we'll get on to Werner, maybe there were reasons why they looked so, but is it just tiredness because they have to play every second of every game? Or are Pedro Porra and Udogi either just having a bad season, certainly the last season,

eight games what's going on with those fullbacks yeah I think I think you have to you have to attribute it to a lot of things like you can't discount fatigue that's not you know that's not a Spurs problem that's a football problem now there's just too much of it welcome club world cup yeah let's make more of it and let's let's do another tour to the moon at some point for sure but I

I think also if you're a fullback and I have no experience of either playing professional football or even playing fullback as an amateur bad footballer, but if everything is changing inside you, right? And I don't mean in the kind of existential way, like technically, like you've got new centre-backs, you've got a midfield that's been shuffling,

that isn't playing well in itself, you've got a new goalkeeper. I'd imagine that uncertainty for two players who, let's be fair, are better going forward than they are without the ball. And that's why they're in the team and, you know, for good reason. That would be deeply disconcerting. And I think also it's interesting if you look back at, for instance, Poro's career at Spurs, he's at his worst when they're at their worst. And I see him really more as a component player, someone who...

is in the right position at the right time provides a lot of energy provides you know really good quality delivery from my positions and you know as a threat when he steps in field too but um you're not going to rely on pedro poro to raise your defensive standard nor should you that's not that's not his role on the team and so i don't i don't think you can separate those things um because in the same way that like when charlie was talking about bergvall um

In my mind, I can't help but imagine what might have happened had he been playing in, for instance, the 2015 to 2019 team and he was a developing player between, I don't know, Christian Eriksen and Moussa Dembele, where you have this...

really established, rigid midfield where everybody kind of knows their role. This team doesn't feel like that. And so you've got a guy who's kind of freewheeling it as a teenager with no Premier League experience, no top five league experience either, trying to kind of find his feet. And for those, I don't think we should lose sight of

How inexperienced those two fullbacks are. Doggie's still learning the game, really. And that shows every now and again. Poro's a bit older, but there are things which he's still learning to do. And so when you add in the uncertainty, the injury issues, the huge lack of confidence is clearly...

this whole team seems to be suffering from. It's going to be hard. Poro, look, the goal that Spurs conceded, and they concede goal after goal after goal from that right in between Poro and the right centre-back, whoever that is at any given occasion. I'll keep on blatting on about it here. This one was slightly different. Poro gets caught upfield. I think he makes a mistake and gets caught upfield and

He then, he does not sprint with every sinew blazing back towards his position. And that may be down to tiredness, even in the first half of the game. And then secondly, because he has no, he is not a natural defender and I played right back on Hackney Marsh, so I know what I'm talking about. He's got to get

inside the forward. But by hell or high water, however bad your body position is, however poor your spatial awareness is for the cross,

you can't affect the play if you're on the far side of the player. And that's where he ends up. It's interesting. You say that they're not, they're not natural defenders. And I accept that. We hadn't, we didn't have a natural number six on the pitch. So that means effectively Spurs started with one defender, if you like in Dragosin. Yeah. Also like the other thing there is maybe we've talked about goalkeeping and goalkeeping tendencies a little bit earlier.

I don't know how Vicario reacts to that situation. Maybe he's a little bit more aggressive with his positioning. I don't know. I mean, I don't know what that does to you as a defender when you start adjusting to height of goalkeeping start points. What that does to your tendencies, how many extra yards that means you have to run during a game. I have no idea. But,

It wasn't good. No. I mean, the thing with Poirot, I do remember to a point about when he's, you know, when Spurs are bad, he's often bad. And in that, like, Stellini, Ryan Mason, kind of that era, whatever that was, that interregnum. That does need a name though, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. That epoch needs a proper definition. It really does. The historians need to get working on that. But he was...

I mean, he was frequently caught out of position. And you remember when he was asked to play in a back four against Newcastle in that game. And it all went to pieces. But yeah, I do have some sympathy with him and Udogi. I mean, we've seen...

a lot of players getting into the season particularly fullbacks who are you know what the demands being put on them I think are incredibly high and we haven't we're at a point where we haven't quite worked out a way to ask them to do all that without completely flogging them and you know pushing them beyond their limits so they're kind of guinea pigs at this stage I'm almost surprised that they haven't broken down either or both of them look Forster makes the big save at the end well done to him I

Did Spurs draw a fair result, Charlie? I mean, if either team was going to win, it was going to be Rangers. Over the course of the game, I think, like I said at the beginning, it's one where you just take the point and try and move on pretty quickly. I hope that they don't dwell on this or that it doesn't live particularly long in the memory. I don't think it will. It's a fine result, even if the performance was pretty concerning in some respects and...

on Sunday we'll see you know if they win there then this gets forgotten about pretty quickly if they don't then it becomes all part of this bigger crisis

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Yeah, welcome back everybody to View From The Name. Because they're slightly unfamiliar voices, I'll tell you it's me, Danny Kelly, making his debut on the pod as Seb Stafford Bloor and returning from titting about at tennis, Charlie Eccleshare. Listen, a difficult night for Spurs, we've tried to say that, and none more so perhaps, although I thought there were others, than it was for Timo Werner.

Jack was at the press conference afterwards, our colleague Jack Pitbrook, and here's a voice note that he sent us about proceedings. I'm at Ibrox, where Ange Postacoglu has just finished his press conference. And most post-match press conferences are fairly predictable, I think. You generally know what the manager is going to say, but Postacoglu has just thrown in one of his...

one of his rare googlings which by giving us something that i've never really heard from him before which is really brutal criticism of one of his players poster koglu generally defends his players certainly he doesn't single them out particularly if they play badly but

He was asked a question about whether Timo Werner was injured. Obviously, Werner was hooked at half-time for Dejan Kulishevsky. And he says that Werner's performance was not acceptable, that it was nowhere near the expected standard from him, that he told Werner this and made the particular point that given Spurs' injury crisis at the moment, given how many players they're short on, given the fact that two teenagers, Archie Gray and Lukas Bergwauld,

having to play he really needs more from his senior players I don't think I've ever heard Posse Coglu be that critical towards a player now I don't think it's especially harsh in the sense that I thought Werner was indeed very bad you know every Spurs attack broke down when it got to him he gave the ball away he was never looked especially involved in the game I don't think his movement was as good as normal

That said, I don't think he was outstandingly bad in the sense that I thought other Spurs players were also bad. But the fact that Posse Coglu has just criticised him like that, it does make me think that maybe he thinks...

some of these players need a bit of a rocket. Maybe he thinks there's some players he can really count on, and then maybe some players he can't count on so much. Yeah, I mean, amazingly strong. I'll start with you, Charlie, because you've spent a season with Postacoglu on the other side of the microphone. Most modern managers don't say anything they haven't carefully considered. It didn't seem like an emotional outburst to me.

Why has he chosen to do this? Why has he chosen to do it now? And why Timo Werner? It is really interesting. All those questions are really interesting. And yeah, I never saw him do this while covering Spurs last season. And literally the day before he said all this. So on Wednesday, in reference to the Romero quotes, he said, we deal with these things in our own four walls. There's always issues we need to deal with. The same way I wouldn't criticise a player or anyone else. We shouldn't be doing that in a public sense.

So to say that on the Wednesday and then on the Thursday, go for Timo Werner. And what I find really interesting about it is it feels a little bit punching down. Like Timo Werner, to me anyway, my sense of him is that he's this kind of quite vulnerable, confidence on the floor sort of player. Now,

I don't know the dressing room dynamics. Maybe it's a bit different. Who is not on a three-year contract and therefore doesn't necessarily have to be around after this. Which maybe answers the question a little bit that it doesn't really matter if you throw him under the bus because he's not going to be here very long. And maybe his dressing room standing is such that you're not going to upset the players. But I think that's what makes it a little bit uncomfortable to me. Now,

Yeah, because you do often associate these sorts of things. It's like at school, often teachers will go after kids who they think can take it or who need to be brought down a peg or two. I don't get that sense with Werner, but maybe...

you know, Ang sees it differently and his sense of the dynamics is that Werner's been arrogant or thought he's above certain things. I mean, I was really curious about it. So I watched back all of Werner's touches and obviously you don't get a complete sense of what he's done because maybe it's, you know, he's not running off the ball or he's not tracking back or whatever it is. And it just felt like a kind of quintessential Werner performance. Like it was...

there was actually some alright bits. You know, if you think of that Johnson chance that I think is actually offside anyway, that comes from a Werner Kroos, a couple of other alright bits. He had the first shot to Spurs' head, although it was still rising when it passed Seton, yeah. Yeah, he gives the ball away a bit. I mean, there were a couple

Because I was looking out for, you know, does he give the ball away and then not track back? And there were one or two times he did that. The problem, I suspect some of it was the fact that Czerny was the outstanding player in the first half on the right-hand side for Rangers. Yeah. I wonder whether he felt... I'm not making excuses for Timo Werner. I mean, there was that moment... You know how...

Again, to come the parents on it, if a child misbehaves in the opening moments of a visit to Alton Towers, you never get the credit back. He miscontrols the ball right on the touchline. I think the second touch he would have had, it goes under his foot, a lack of concentration, I'm guessing, and the camera's cut, at least on the coverage I was watching here in Ireland, the camera's cut to Poster Coghlu screwing his face up

And I thought, oh, that doesn't look good. That wasn't the usual clap, clap, clap, encouragement. Come on, guys. And it is interesting, you know, like I found this, especially being at games during COVID where you could hear the managers talking. It's sometimes surprising the things that really piss a manager off. And it isn't always what we expect. Sometimes it's not.

taking on a man when that's absolutely what you're supposed to be doing so clearly something has pissed him off but it does make me feel I really struggle to believe this was just about last night I feel this must have been brewing for a while this frustration either with Werner or with a few of the players

because I don't think it was just that he put in a stinker of a performance. I don't think that would elicit this kind of reaction. This must have been building, but it is significant because bear in mind as well, what's been one of Angie's biggest sort of selling points compared to Conte was,

That he's not crazily volatile, that he's not going off, you know, that the players kind of know where they stand. Again, to make the parenting analogy, consistency is always a thing that, you know, people talk about. Kids don't like it if, you know, a parent acts one way one day and then another. They like to know where they stand. Same with footballers and how they're managed. And that's something they really like with Ange. So this is quite a drastic departure. And obviously within the context of the recent form, you know,

It does feel pretty significant. It is one of the cliches of the business we're all in. When someone looks sideways at someone else, we would describe it as blasting. But that was a proper eight sticks of dynamite blasting, Seb. Yeah, it was extremely harsh. It was very, very personal, very intentionally directed.

I agree with Charlie because to me, this is not the Timo Werner performance that breaks you. It felt fairly typical. It wasn't good, of course, it was bad. But actually, over the past couple of months, Werner's not a goal scorer and he never will be. He doesn't have the technique for it, doesn't have the confidence or the belief. But he's quite effective cutting in from the left-hand side. He's got a pretty good delivery on him. He creates quite a few chances. He's just a semi-useful squad player and

I think what frustrates me about it is if I was to line up in kind of order which Spurs players I want to see the manager shout at, Werner's nowhere near the front. I look at some of the guys who, well, some of the vice captains, for instance, who I think this season have been dreadful at times and who have played well below their ability

maybe play up to expectation once every month, maybe, or every six weeks. Name names, Romero, Madison. Romero, I'm cautious with Romero because he's played so much football and I still don't fully understand the effects of fatigue on a professional and of travel as well with him because obviously travel down to South America and he just gets no time off and it looks like

He, yeah, it looks like there's more going on. I don't think there's a lack of application. Madison, I don't understand James Madison as a player. I remember when he first arrived at Spurs thinking, God, he's so much better than I thought he was.

And then over time he had his injury. Yes. But he, I don't know whether his inability to affect games is a result of what's happening around him or the lack of a, you know, a proper stable platform behind or what's going on to, to, you know, down the left or the right hand side. I don't know, but to me, I do come away feeling a little bit short changed by him at times and expecting more. And then thinking also, yeah, it's interesting. You have all this talent and yet,

you never play for England. That's quite interesting to me that there's always been that in his career. And that stretches all the way back to his under-21 years when there were a few difficulties there. So, yeah, I... But then Charlie mentioned the kind of the lack of jeopardy because you can throw Timo Werner in front of the bus, can't you? Because he's going back to Leipzig in the summer or he might even go back sooner. I don't know, depending on... He'll be back for the Glouvine at Christmas, won't he? The way things are moving. But I...

I didn't understand it. I like Postakoglu. I spent a bit of time with him in Asia and chatted with him. I think he's got some really interesting ideas on the game and he's a personal fellow when he wants to be, not all the time.

But it shocked me. It shocked me. I don't see the upside. Is that going to unleash the Timo Werner monster against... Or is it... That would be my next question to you, Seb. Is it designed to unleash the inner ungeheuer within Werner to use the... Thank you very much indeed. Or... Oh, thank you. Or is that his last game for Spurs?

I think the latter is more likely. I feel like that might be a breaking point because Werner has always been quite a fragile player. We know that his confidence, even before he got to Tottenham or even before he got to Chelsea, he was a streaky player. That's what got him to Chelsea in the first place. The big misunderstanding about him was goal scorer. And really what he was doing was riding away with confidence at Leipzig and playing in exactly the right system for him. So taking away...

and managed faith i mean we're assuming also that what he you know that that's it you know when they all turn up to training today apostacog is just going to blank him not talk to him at all you know go and train with the kids team i don't know that's the case maybe they have a meeting in the office this morning and they say hey listen i said this because this you know i mean this we like as members of media it's it's like the iceberg isn't it you see about 10 of it

And I don't know, but I, I've always seen Werner as someone who needs a bit of love and care really, rather than kind of harsh treatment. Postacoglu, I don't,

do have a lot of admiration for and I generally think he is a good reader of people even though he likes to keep his distance from the players so I you know you could say well if wow if Ange has really gone off then he must have his reasons and you know maybe there is something with Werner we're not seeing but certainly on the face of it it is a little bit confusing I don't think it's

you know, the last we'll see of him necessarily just because Spurs' squad is so hit with unavailabilities. I don't think you can really be affording to completely ostracise, you know, a Germany international. I expect, you know.

I was just thinking about it last night. So Solomon is out on loan. Mikey Moore is injured. Richarlison is injured. Timo Werner's on the naughty step. I mean, how many left-sided attacking players? Odeber is injured. Yeah, sorry. Luckily, I mean, Son is there, but we really are working our way through the left-sided attack at an alarming rate. Now,

That public criticism was, we all agree, unusual in professional football, particularly the Premier League. But it's been a week for it, hasn't it? We've had Son crying at the end of a game. We've had Kulosevsky saying we've all got to do better. I mean, it's kind of a cliche. I wouldn't count that one too much. And then we've had Christian Romero, who said, who had plenty to say about...

The manager, he was defending the manager and winding it out to the bigger picture at Spurs. Among the many things that he said was this, hopefully they realize, this is the fans, who the true responsible ones are. And we move forward because it's a beautiful club that with the structure it has could easily be competing for the title every year.

I don't speak fluent South American Spanish, but I interpreted this as telling, it was obvious you didn't have to interpret it too much, that Spurs have not given their standing in the world, the beautiful club and its technical facilities, have not spent enough money either on transfers or wages or both to allow the team to compete at the top end of the Premier League. Um,

I don't know where to start with this, Charlie, because this is now becoming the fault line in Spurs fans. Some want to criticise the manager and his tactics and others just will let the manager away with anything now because they just say it's not his fault. I thought Romero was speaking for a lot of people there. I think a lot of fans would have been nodding back

in agreement Romero is a very straight talker on the previous summer tour the one in Australia Thailand Singapore I remember

We had a bit of time with Romero and he went off about Conte and how bad things had been the previous season. You know, he is someone who I think probably makes the club a bit jittery if they see him talking to media because he's not going to mince his words, which is, you know, exactly what the fans and the media want. They want someone who they feel is being forthright. And I think, you know, what he says is,

You think about this summer, for instance, and again, it was one where the focus seemed to be more on the future rather than the present and the here and now. And I think that's something we've been talking about for a long time. That's been the model. But clearly from his perspective, that's not going to make you compete with clubs who are very set on the here and now and are spending fortunes on making sure they have teams that are competitive for this season, not the one in three or four seasons.

Seb, you were on the pre-season tour when we were all here arguing each week about the outgoings and incomings, the transfer window. What was your feeling out there with the players and the squad? I don't want to throw you under the bus here, Seb, because we now know that they have an inadequate squad, but that wasn't the vibe we were getting in the summer, was it? No, I think the vibe was very much like,

internal improvements development on our season the thing that got I remember spending some time with Pastor Coghlu and one of the things he said was what really matters is players have got to have conviction in what we're doing it's got to move from a situation where I'm asking them to do things because I'm telling them that's the right thing to do to they just do it automatically and this refers to the way they play the style of football and

You know what those pre-season tours are like? You can become a little bit cabin-fever-y because you're up close, everything feels positive, the sun's shining. Goodness, we were in Tokyo and saw these amazing cities and you feel pretty relaxed. Everyone's relaxed. You haven't had just a terrible Premier League result three days ago and you're playing in a fairer position a lot of the time. But there was that optimism and also...

I remember when the access we were given to the young players who were signed, Archie Gray and Lucas Bergvall, these are great young guys and they're very talented. And you could see them adapting into this kind of brew of players who were gradually becoming a little bit, developing those convictions and becoming a little bit more

developing a little bit more agency in where they wanted the team to go. And so that, you know, that I think that generally gets overstressed a little bit. But then you've got no choice. I mean, what do you, I mean, there was never a situation either where people, even post-acogli weren't saying we need a new forward. And these were the pre-Dom Solanke days, weeks, months. That was pretty obvious. I think also, I think it's something that I wrote in a piece when I came back is that clearly,

They didn't do enough. Because you can have all the young players you like, but the truth of it is the hard truth in the modern game is that, okay, so you signed five 18 year olds who are all outstanding talents. Well, that doesn't necessarily mean you can have five world class 25 year olds in seven years time. It also doesn't necessarily mean that all of those players are either going to develop at the same time, realise their potential or even stay at the club. So, you know, maybe Lucas Bergvall wins Ballon d'Or, but does it happen when he's actually at Tottenham? Because that's the key difference, right?

And so I know I'm not really answering your question and I'm kind of demanding my say on what Romero said, but he said what he actually said. It's not really up for debate. Do Spurs spend enough money to compete with the top teams in the Premier League? No, they don't.

I agree. The main reason why things aren't good. That's the thing that's debated amongst fans because that's, that's your, your levy, your post-it cognitive, your players, your recruitment. That's that argument. They're two separate things. But the difference to me is always,

I don't want to have a go at James Madison again, but Spurs' idea of an established player is James Madison because he doesn't cost that much. He's not a £100 million player. His wages aren't £400,000 a week. But then when you look at the patterns of recruitment from other teams, when they go for that player, it's not £40 million.

pounds it's um Arsenal's breaking the British transfer record to sign Declan Rice uh for about like a week or whatever it was until it um until it was broken again yeah or it's it was it's an old example but of course but Liverpool strengthening with Allison Salah Van Dijk you know Man City of their own thing Chelsea their own thing of course that's not a fair comparison because redacted but um it's

Spurs don't compete on that level. It's just not an argument. It's just factual. It's backed up with the data. And unfortunately, I'm of the belief that you don't win anymore by having batches of young players you develop all at the same time, just because the one game is so littered with uncertainty. It's not linear enough to plan that way. At least that cannot be your only strategy. It has to be supplemented with something else. I've said something similar on here, Seb, and I'm very proud

pleased that somebody bright has actually backed that up. It's a lot of bluster for me, really. That kind of team development in an environment as brutally competitive as the Premier League is...

almost impossible. And Chelsea, of course, as always, are the exception that proves every rule because they've also done it at a huge, huge cost. Chelsea are not a kind of underdog. They've just brought a load of academy kids through. Plucky young Chelsea. Yeah.

Yeah, £200 million central midfielders. Yeah, exactly. Plus Latvia, who cost a fortune. Completely different financial model. Sure. And don't even really know what the intention is there at all. Man City, you can't do that. The one comparison that always interests me is I cover German football and obviously, with the exception of Bayern Munich, every club is really a development club or a buy to sell. And what's interesting is if you look at the quality of recruitment at, say, I mean, a bit apples to oranges, but

But RB Leipzig, right? Yeah. RB Leipzig's recruitment of young players is absolutely fantastic. Looking at their record of identifying talent for low price and selling them high, but also having so much ability in their team at any one point.

What happens year to year is this sort of point of realisation where you recognise it doesn't actually matter because unless you're anchoring all of that ability with a player that is mid-career, is kind of a veteran in terms of understanding their way around the Bundesliga or the Champions League, there will come a point at which all the flaws that naturally exist in a young player or the kind of learning curve difficulties that you have to suffer through with that sort of recruiting model cost you.

And Spurs and RB Leipzig are not the same types of clubs for all sorts of reasons. I'm not saying that. But it does highlight in a very clear way the issues with thinking, which is if you just sign players at the right time and hold on to them, eventually you'll finish above that billion pound a year transfer spending club. It's just not going to happen.

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Welcome back to The View from the Lane. Just a little diversion first. I don't know some spoilers here. So if you're planning to or watching the TV series Black Doves, by all means, skip forward to the next time you hear Charlie or Seb's voice. So I've been watching a series called Black Doves on the TV. Usual thing now when it's not on terrestrial TV. Huge production values. Fantastic actors hired to do the work.

And in this case, it was very well written as well. It was written by Joe Barton, Blacktiles, who also wrote Hitchy Carrie, was that what it was called? Which was, I think, on terrestrial television. And Mrs. Kelly, who is, of course, a literary journalist by trade, said to me, the second most shocking thing, he said, Joe Barton's a massive Spurs fan. You should have him on that blinking podcast thing you do. Yeah.

I was quite shocked to learn that the character

who turns out to be the evil female monster trying to start World War III, played by Tracey Ullman, by the way. She turned out to be called Alex Clark, the same name as Mrs Kelly. We looked at each other and wondered what Barton's been up to, but better still was the proof. I'm still reeling from that. The proof that he is indeed a Spurs fan. At the very denouement, people are opening their Christmas presents. I won't spoil it for people why this is happening.

And the main protagonist's son opens his package and it's a fleeting moment, but I stopped the television to make sure I got it right. He's got a Sondra and Ming Seven shirt with a little Spurs badge on the front of it. A little tear ran down my fat old face because normally writers these days, you just write in the Manchester United, Liverpool or Chelsea shirt and that does, doesn't it? So thanks Joe Barton for that. I will be hassling him to come on the podcast very, very soon.

Hang on one second, please. I've got something going. To retake that last line, it's the daughter who gets the shirt. Okay, thank you. Okay, literary criticism from the kitchen. LAUGHTER

And there's a brilliant moment. Instant feedback. There's a brilliant moment at the end. Well, she won't want to get into Barton's bad books. There's a brilliant moment. You could definitely keep that in. There's a brilliant moment at the end. It's the daughter who gets the Son Heung-min shirt. Shows you how much attention I was paying, doesn't it? Charlie, you're these days on the other side of the net. What have you made of Spurs this year? This season, rather. Sorry.

Yeah, I mean, I think I have found it sort of grimly familiar the last few weeks, the rhythm of things unravelling again. And actually, I was speaking to someone, Spurs contact around that time, and what I was saying, I did just have the sense it was heading in that way. And then he messaged me this week being like, yeah, you've obviously covered a lot of Spurs content.

because, you know, your spidey senses were tingling. I mean, the kind of... Yeah, you start to learn to spot the signs. And I think that's a bit of a shame because I did...

Like Seb said, with the optimism of the preseason tours, I definitely felt that when Ange had just come in on the one in the summer 2023 and then the first few months of that season, it really did feel like, no, maybe this time it is going to be different. He was so convincing in everything he was saying and the results back that up, that eight wins, two draws from the first 10 league games. So I have found it interesting

sort of disappointing in that sense that it feels as though he's just headed in the same direction that his predecessors have gone and that you know the team is so up and down and that's also been a recurring theme but you know that you have results like City but then you kind of know that a bad one's just around the corner and I think you know just to sort of bring it to Sunday and Southampton and that away game I just think they're

their struggles away from home have been so striking. They just don't win tight away games. They've won four league games away in 2024. They were Sheffield United, which was a last day, nothing, 3-0. Then they beat City 4-0, they beat Villa 4-0, they beat United 3-0. All huge wins, but they haven't had... In fact, I think on Sunday it'll be a year to the day since their last regular away league win. That was Forest and that was 2-0.

And before that, they hadn't had one for a little while as well. So they've just really struggled to sort of get those kind of humdrum, run-of-the-mill wins certainly away from home. And even at home, all their wins have been these kind of rip-roaring comebacks.

So I think that's been, um, that's been the thing that to me is really sort of jumped out, um, this season. And I, and I did think, you know, I thought they were moving in the right direction and maybe they still are. Maybe if you kind of take enough of a step back, which I know is really hard to do, especially, you know, when you're covering the team, because there's such a, you know, you need to have takes on every little thing. So I think I've been able to feel like, no, I still feel they are, um,

I think only in the last few weeks has that really shifted and maybe still, you know, maybe they can get through this period and players come back, etc. But yeah, I found it a little disheartening that so many of the kind of the stock themes of a Spurs season and of a Spurs crisis have seemed to have reared their head again.

They're still in three cup competitions and we'll see how that happens. You're right, the away form is really a concern and I stole that stat that somebody put out the other day that the other team, the away team, the home team scores

Spurs never win. They lose virtually every game. If the other team gets a goal at all, you mentioned Forest 2-0, City 4-0, Manchester United 3-0, Aston Villa 4-0. If the other team scores, Spurs just don't respond to it very, very well. Do you know the last time they won an away league game where they conceded? Go on. I'll just fact check it, but it must be Crystal Palace away in October 2023. And that Palace goal was a late consolation.

I mean, it's mad. That's just mad, isn't it? Because as I say, I always measure teams by two things, and very oddly they are. How do they do away from home, and how do they do when they go behind? First goal. And by those measures, Spurs are...

They're a tissue of a team at the moment. Now, look, they've got an amazing opportunity, you could argue, to put most of those stats on the floor and to nail them to the floor at the weekend when they go to a Southampton side who are on target to match some of the worst Premier League performances ever. I don't think they're quite that bad a team, but that's what their results are.

Seb, I want you to rise up from your slough of despond and tell me that Spurs can win at Southampton and will win at Southampton.

You know, Danny, if we push forward like 10 years into the future, I can imagine reading an article, probably written by Charlie or Jack or Jay, which says, you know, which talks about the Southampton season and then refers to this Sunday as like a rare bright spot. Oh, God. Because you can see it. A turning point. When you start talking about how bad they were and, you know, record worst team in the league and, you know, and then, you know, yeah,

Yeah, Russell Martin, Guardiola, Bostockoglu, talking about how much he admires him. You can just feel it, right? Maybe I've been a Spurs fan for too long. No, on paper, they should absolutely win it. But then at the same time, I feel like this team is in a headspace where the pressure of if something were to go wrong early, all of a sudden you start to hear that voice of you're going to be laughed at for this and they can't beat anybody. And yet...

they're going to turn you over and so i i unfortunately have some trepidation um i hope i'm wrong about that but um but in any job or any walk of life you get a setback i mean there are several responses and one of them is just to look down at your chest realize you've got a heart as well stick your chest out and say right we're going to do something that we're going to change this we're going to change this match we're going to change this narrative and i think you know

Spurs have got the talent. They're not going to win the title or anything like that, but they've got the talent to do that. I just don't understand why at the moment they're just not getting themselves to do that. I'm not as pessimistic as Seb about this game at Southampton. I think you've got to look at this. Admittedly, Spurs will have problems at centre-back, and I don't know. I know he's only played four games so far.

Leaving Archie Gray playing centre-back in the Premier League seems very, very tough to me. And I don't know why, say, Dorrington, who at least is familiar with the position and looks to have the physical capability to deal with the Premier League. Also, Southampton will not be playing, you know, Erling Haaland up front. Yeah, I think that's a big ask for him, just to chuck him in. But yeah, I think they will win this game. Partly, I think they'll be helped by their playing a team who like to play in a similar way to them, just without...

quite such good players listen thank you very much indeed the pair of you on what's been another difficult podcast to navigate all the things that are being said and talked about and all the rest of it um seb that was a fantastic day we thank you so much for your time nice welcome and uh try not to get trapped on the trains in germany too much um charlie is always a joy to work with you and welcome back to the view from the lane

Thank you. Absolute pleasure. Yeah. And thank you to all of you who've listened. Remember, you can get in touch with us on what used to be called Twitter at VFTL podcast, also on Blue Sky. And I'd recommend that to you now at the risk, once again, of getting plenty of grief on social media. You can also email us at VFTL at theathletic.com and all the best coverage. And it is deep,

and wide and tall, as Aztec camera once said, of Spurs is in the Athletic itself. God bless you all. And South Coast-wise, come on you Spurs! The Athletic.

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