Monday Night Club: Sacked managers, stressed managers and sexy pundits
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This is Five Live Sports. The Monday Night Club with Mark Chapman. Listen on BBC Sounds. Welcome to the Monday Night Club. Rory Smith, Chris Sutton and Stephen Warnock are with us. Plenty to get into tonight. And first...

Of course, it is. Mark, can I just cut in here? Because I think we should get into this first. And you're looking particularly dapper this evening. And I don't know whether Rory's aware of this, but Ian Dennis at the weekend brought this to my attention that Mark Chapman

was voted the fourth sexiest pundit in the country. Pundit? Rory Smith. What do you... Pundit? I'm glad you picked up on pundit and not sexiest. That's fine. I did see you won it. Yeah. Who won it?

Peter Crouch won it, but I mean, as far as I can see, Mark Chapman, he's the housewife's choice. I'm not a pundit, so I shouldn't have been on that list, really, Chris. Well, it's just nice to be up in that company with Peter Crouch and Ali McCoy and what have you. But that's a feather in your cap, isn't it? Chris, were you on the list?

No, they said they don't allow X models on there. Balaclava models. You do have a bit of a George Clooney. Oh, for goodness sake, Chris, what do you want? What do you want? I'm just saying, I'm just paying you a compliment. I don't have a George Clooney. Look about me in the slightest and that's never ever been mentioned before. What?

We've got the email address. Haven't we? The Monday night email address. Yes. Let's get some emails in. Okay. MNC. I'm not sure they're going to flood in here, but mnc at bbc.co.uk. You're surprised. Right. Thank you. I do actually feel myself reddening. So can we get to the football? Well, look, whatever someone as sexy as you wants to do. So we lost two managers. Good.

We lost two managers over the weekend, Russell Martin at Southampton, Gary O'Neill at Wolves. Both clubs, the bottom two in the Premier League. There's so much to get into here. What's gone wrong for both managers? What next for both clubs? But also the life of a manager as well. Because actually, Stephen, as I said last night and as we were talking about just before coming off air,

Russell Martin looked terrible last night and I'm not I'm not meaning that in any horrible way at all it's meant to be sympathetic and he looked absolutely exhausted Yeah I don't think you realise sometimes exactly how much stress you're putting on your body and how difficult it is to be to be a football manager the thoughts that must go through your head at night and the

the dilemmas of team selections how to play style of play players that you want to sign players that you want to move on there's a million things probably going through your head at one moment and

It's always even harder when you're not winning games. And I think when you look at... And you go away from Russell Martin for a second. Look at Pep Guardiola. He looks absolutely shattered at the moment. He looks exactly the same because when you're winning, things become a little bit easier for you. And that's both as a player and a manager. But when you're down there and things are a little bit tougher and obviously Russell Martin's been sort of...

nagged a lot this season about his playing style and the way that the team set up. He's found it very, very difficult and those pressures are obviously showing on his face as well. So we will talk about the pressures of a manager and how difficult this feels at the moment for so many of them up and down the leagues. You know, you look elsewhere this weekend, Neil Harris has left Millwall, Des Buckingham has lost his job at Oxford, Aberdeen,

and we'll come on to Wolves and Gary O'Neill in a moment. But as far as Russell Martin is concerned, and he was a guest on this podcast last season, do you have some sympathy for him, Rory? I do. I think given Southampton's results, it's not difficult to work out why the club have decided...

that they had to do something. There's an awful lot of money riding on sale in the Premier League. So I think it's very hard to kind of make the case that they've acted rashly or harshly or sort of unthinkably. I think everyone looking at this table can probably understand it. But I do feel bad for Russell Martin on the grounds that he was appointed as a manager who had principles and believed in the long-term benefits of standing by those principles.

He appears now to have been, well, maybe this isn't true. It looks from the outside as though the fact that he hasn't been willing to bend those principles has cost him his job. But then if you look at the list of replacements for him, who are all managers who play in a very similar way, I think, there's no sort of suggestion that Southampton are going to do something completely kind of different. They will go for a high-pressing, sort of expansive football-type manager, but

Maybe it's just that his voice wasn't working, but it does look a little bit like his principals got him the job and have now cost him them. And that makes me wonder if managers are kind of caught in a bit of a no-win situation. I understand why Russell Martin was sacked, but I have far more sympathy for him than I do Gary O'Neill. I mean, in many respects, the job which he did in getting Southampton back to the Premier League, he'd probably still be in a job

had Southampton lost that playoff final last year and they'd be doing okay in the championship. But he hasn't. And Rory's mentioned he's a very principled guy in the way that he wants to play. And he set out his Southampton team. Vincent Kompany was very principled. And look where that's gotten him, you know, from Burnley to Bayern Munich. And, you know, he wouldn't change. But I always think that...

the clubs who come up it's it's getting harder and harder to stay in the premier league we only have to look at last season what happened the three promoter clubs came straight back down so so i also think that clubs do have to look a bit longer term and albeit it's been a disaster from from a southampton uh perspective but i think if you look back through sort of

not too distant history and clubs like Burnley, when Sean Dyche was in charge, went back down and came back stronger. So, you know, I also think there is that argument where clubs do have to look longer term. If you looked at Southampton's squad at the start of the season, I think most of us would say that squad, you compare it to all the other squads in the Premier League, there's a strong chance of Southampton getting relegated. I agree. I think what Chris is saying there, my big thing is, is that

I think the stat is 40% of clubs who change the managers have a chance of staying up who change within the bottom three.

which is actually, it's getting worse as time goes on because like Chris says, the Premier League is so competitive and teams coming up are finding it so difficult. But when they went up, did they honestly believe that they could compete playing that style of football as an ownership? Because I mean, straight away, if I look back over the course of the start of the season and everyone that you spoke to,

pretty much ex-players within the game would say, Southampton will go down. So if you're the owners, that is a fascinating point. If you're the owners, do you then go, right, Russell, you might need to change your approach here, otherwise we're going to be in trouble? Or do you go, thanks very much for getting us up, Russell, but actually...

we think we need to go in a different direction in the Premier League. And that's the big conundrum, isn't it? Do you really be absolute cutthroat at that moment in time and go, that's what you were brought in to do, was to get us into the Premier League, but we don't think playing that style of football will be sustainable within the Premier League, or...

We give you 10 games and after 10 games, if it's not right, we're going to have to make that decision to make a change because we need to stay in the Premier League. Or you do go down the other route, as Chris says there, and go, OK,

We go down and we come back up and then we try and build year upon year and improve. That's the tough, that's the hard part of being an owner of a football club is to make them big key decisions because whichever way you do it, you will get a fan reaction to it. But long term, it might be for the better of the club. I think that Southampton will have taken that approach when they appointed Russell Martin. Having spoken to people at Southampton on this show as well,

My guess would be the club thought this is a sustainable way of establishing ourselves as a Premier League team long term. So Russell Martin brings his philosophy in, they get up through the playoffs, maybe ahead of schedule, maybe not. They then go into the Premier League, they have that season in the Premier League. Either way, even if obviously if you stay up, fantastic. If you come back down, you still have...

A manager who has a defined style of play, which makes your recruitment easier, it makes everything smoother, more efficient, you then go back up and the second time you have that sort of better chance of staying up. We've seen lots of teams do that. Bournemouth did that. Okay, but is that because... But you have to go down in a certain way? Well, I think the problem is... I.e., like...

although Rob Edwards is now under a lot of pressure at Luton because they're having a terrible time in the championship. But to go down bravely like Luton, as opposed to in the main...

being dismantled week in, week out. Yeah, I think that's the problem, and this is where I agree with Stephen completely. I think the problem that ownerships have is that's what you want to do, and to an extent you probably are right to think that's what you should do, but when you are 4-0 down after 25 minutes and bottom of the table, nine points off relegation before Christmas, then the equation changes, and that's where Southampton have found themselves. It's like the theory running into the practice. Yeah.

But wouldn't it be refreshing if club owners held the nerve with things such as this? So, you know, in recent seasons, we've seen, look where Nottingham Forest are and the amount of money that they spent. I remember being at Aston Villa when they stayed up on the last day of the season. They were away at West Ham. Dean Smith was manager. They spent a fortune and ended up there.

and ended up staying up and there may have been criticism for their wild spending. But Southampton haven't spent wildly. And, you know, the squad they've accumulated, I don't think, you know, I think that that would be all on for any manager to keep them in the Premier League. I take the point, take Rory's point completely about when you're, you know, 4-0 down, 5-0 down at half time, that, you know, that was always going to be the end for Russell Martin.

But I do have great sympathy for him because the job was always going to be really, really difficult for him. The tough part, though, is that we're all sitting here now talking about the board, but...

But the emphasis or the ownership, it should go back onto Russell Martin and go, well, how do I adapt? How do I change? Because we talk about the gulfing clash between the Championship and the Premier League. You can't just come into the Premier League and say, well, this is how I play and this is the only way I'm going to play. But you're going up against Pep Guardiola. You're going up against Arteta. You're going up against great managers like

at the moment who are better tactically than you. So you have to then adapt your game and go, okay, so how do I improve? How do I learn? And how do I get better? If you were in that squad, if you were in that squad, would you, as a senior player, But that's what I'm saying. I think you'd get more respect. Would you have gone to him and gone,

We can't keep playing like this. 100%. 100%. You'd have to because everything at the moment is a backward step. So whenever you're receiving the ball, you're under pressure with players on you. And I spoke about this when we were on last week. You've got your defenders on the ball constantly who are not good players. Your defenders aren't as good as midfielders and attackers naturally on the ball. But essentially, they're having more possession than any other player in the team.

because they don't know how to get it through to them lines, because you're going up against better pressing teams, higher pressing teams who are tactically better than you. Well, you've got to adapt. You've got to find a different way. And that's where the players also have to have a voice as well. But we go back to that point that we made the other day. Everyone's a robot. Yeah.

But, Stephen, Russell Martin, and I don't know this, but it's a bit like Ange Postakoglu in the way that Spurs play. Spurs have superior players, but Ange Postakoglu is big on, in the long term, this will make our team and our club better if we play this game.

particular way. And that's... But you've just said it there, Chris. He's got better players. So you've got to adapt to the players that you've got in your squad. You cannot play that... Do you think Poster Coglu could go in at Southampton and play that style with them type of players? I think he has that belief in his coaching. It's what... Is the alternative then just to be...

Yeah, I do understand what you're saying, and I'm not dismissing what you're saying. But then, you know, the alternative is just to go and be direct and hit the ball up to a big striker. No, you don't have to be direct. And you could still end up going down. So I understand what you're saying about balance, and I agree with it. But that's, you know, that's what Russell Martin Rory said. That's why he got the job.

And he's sticking to his principles. And in many respects, he's probably too principled in the fact and too stubborn in the fact that he wouldn't budge. But, you know, I still go back and understand what you're saying. I still go back to I don't think Southampton's players, player for player, are that good to stay in the Premier League anyway. I...

I'd agree with that. I think the issue, and I think you've both referred to it, is that Southampton's squad just isn't strong enough so that you could get John Beck in and I'm not sure... That's a reference for the kids. I'm not sure they'd stay up. And I think there's a bit of a falsehood in football that...

playing defensive direct football is safer than playing attacking football. I'm not sure that's true. Plenty of teams who play direct go down. Just as when people first started talking about zonal marking, you'd have thought that no one had ever conceded from a corner before because it was always blamed on the zones. And it was a bit like, well, yeah, you can concede goals from corners if you're man-to-man marking as well. You can go down if you're playing direct football just as you go down if you're playing defensively.

sort of non-direct, intricate football. What I think is really interesting, and I don't have an answer for this, is how we got into this position where... I know, Chris, it makes me feel very uneasy, but how we got into this position where refusing to adapt is seen as a managerial virtue is really weird, particularly because, and he's not a great example at the moment, but his career's been okay. Guardiola is not kind of a fundamentalist in that sense. If Guardiola is up against a team who he thinks can press him forward

his team out of possession, he will go longer. Pep Guardiola doesn't preach on the ground all the time. I remember years ago being at Dortmund and seeing his Bayern team basically just go over the first wave of a clock press because he was a bit like, well, we can't get through that, so we'll go over it. Isn't it interesting what you've just done, Rory? So I've said that

Southampton need to change their style of play and you've just turned it into, oh, they need to go direct. Then you've talked about Pep Guardiola and you've said, oh no, he's just going to miss out that press. So we're talking about different styles of play and we change the narrative to suit whatever team you're playing. And when we look at Arsenal, so if you go to goalkeeping stats this season of teams who've played long and

Arsenal are the most direct from their goalkeeper in the Premier League or missed the press out whichever way you want to look at it but we're talking about that Southampton have played the fewest long balls from their goalkeepers this season

So straight away, you're telling everyone what your style is. So Arsenal bought in David Raya to be able to miss that press out because he's better with his feet at going direct or missing the press, whichever way you want to look at it. But it's not direct. It's being clever. It's playing to your strengths. Now your goalkeeper is bought in. I was very surprised, I'll be completely honest, when Ramsdale went in at Southampton. I don't think he's necessarily outstanding with his feet, as in...

that ability to play out from the back. But who, you know, if Ramsdale, you know, I'm just looking at it from Russell Martin's perspective. If a goalkeeper of the ilk of Ramsdale becomes available, Stephen, that's, you know, that is understandable, him taking them. I felt for him last night. Imagine agreeing to be a pundit on your own team's game and then being five mil down at halftime. I mean, you're in a bit of a difficult situation there. I did feel for him.

Just the one thing which I would say, Mark, and we're all questioning Russell Martin and his tactics. Just reading the Southampton statement about the sacking said we are witnessing firsthand the significant gap between the Championship and Premier League. So while we can sort of put the onus on this, this was Russell Martin's issue.

Runs deeper than that, doesn't it? Well, it does. And you mentioned this a little bit earlier on, and I'll be honest with you, when I read this and I mentioned it to Stephen here in the studio, we were like, wow. Which is, Rory, of last season's six playoff winning managers in the top six divisions, only one is still in position.

and that's Andy Woodman at Bromley. So Russell Martin has gone now at Southampton with them bottom. Des Buckingham has gone from Oxford with them just outside the drop zone. Scott Lindsay's a little bit of an anomaly because he left Crawley to join MK Dons. However, Crawley are in the bottom four in League One.

Ian Culverhouse at Boston, who got promoted to the National League. They're next to bottom in the National League. Braintree also in the National League, who went up through National League South. And they're in the relegation zone as well in the National League. So five of the six who won the playoffs have gone this season. And to contrast that, only one of the losing playoff managers has changed. And that's the guy at Worthing who dropped back to being an assistant manager because he was only interim anyway.

So what we're concluding is you shouldn't win the playoffs. Well, yes. That's quite interesting, that, isn't it? The losing managers now in playoff finals, they'll be going back to their hotel room and celebrating. No, but it shows that unless somehow you get yourself to mid-table, which, as we can see from all those clubs, is difficult, at every single level of the pyramid,

you're going to be in trouble. Yeah, I mean, I think to an extent there's a logic there, isn't there? Because the playoff winning team, by definition, is the weakest of the three promoted teams or four promoted teams. And especially if they come from sixth rather than third, there's an element of lottery about that. So I suppose it's not, if you were to say which...

set of promoted teams would have the highest managerial turnover, you'd probably say playoff teams. But the Southampton statement is absolutely right and it's most pronounced between the Premier League and the Championship, but I think it applies certainly between the Championship and League 1 and probably between League 1 and League 2. I think it also applies between National League, North and South and National League.

Yeah, without question, and National League into League Two. The steps are cliff edges. They are huge gaps between the Leeds, and that is not good. It's most pronounced between the Premier League and the Championship because of the sheer amount of money involved. But it's not good for anybody. As much as we can look at our pyramid and say, aren't we great? We've got a pyramid. Isn't this wonderful, the romance of football?

The way it's structured now is doing everything it can to actually reduce mobility between the divisions, certainly on a permanent basis. You now do have this class of clubs, and Southampton will be in there, of teams who come up and down and up and down and up and down. And they are kind of trapped between the Premier League and the Championship. And they can't ever... They're far too rich to be in the Championship. They're not quite good enough to be in the Premier League. And they will never get to be good enough because of the way...

they keep going down effectively and losing out on, you know, the £90 million every three years. Well, gone are the days then of a rich owner coming in and going, okay, let's get into the Premier League and go and spend a lot of money because of PSR now. So we lose that element of being able to go out and being able to compete in

in the Premier League by attracting, so say next season, and I'm just throwing the name out because they are a big club, Leeds. Leeds go into the Premier League next year and the owners go, we want to go and buy four good players and we want to spend around 40 million, 50 million on each of those players. They can't.

They could attract them because they are Leeds United and people will want to go and play for Leeds within the Premier League, but the restraints that are put on them will not allow them to do that. So as Rory says then, we will get that yo-yoing of clubs being unable to do it unless you bring in someone, a high-profile manager who's able to keep you up.

The alternative, obviously, we should mention Brentford and Brighton, who are two of the best run clubs in the world. That seems to be the only surefire way of doing it now, that you have to have some advantage, some edge on everybody else.

Rory, thank you. Right, let's talk to Tim Vickery about the man being linked with the Wolves vacancy, and that's Vito Pereira, who is the Al-Shabaab manager at the moment. Wolves hoping to conclude the deal in the next 24 to 48 hours. Prior to Al-Shabaab, he managed both Corinthians and Flamengo, so that's why we've got Tim on to talk about him. There's one article I read, Tim, that said...

that said, his recent stint in Brazilian football reflects a microcosm of his career, haphazard, unpredictable and controversial. I mean, that sounds just like what Wolves need at the moment. Yeah, good evening, gentlemen. He did a pretty good job with Corinthians. Corinthians are a massive club from Sao Paulo.

But they're in financial problems. They're still in financial problems. If you remember the stadium from the San Pablo Stadium from the World Cup, they've had great problems paying for it. So that's been a difficult job. And he marshaled his resources pretty well there. He got on fourth in the league.

And they got through to the quarterfinals of the Champions League, the Libertadores, and all the way to the final of the Brazilian Cup. Now, the Brazilian Cup plays big over here. There's more money on the table for winning the Cup than there is for winning the league. It's taken the opposite path from the FA Cup. And they only lost on penalties and were unlucky. And he cut his cloth quite well there with Corinthians. And the base formation was a 4-1-4-1.

He had one really and truly great player, I think. You may remember from the 2018 World Cup, midfielder called Renato Augusto scored Brazil's goal that nearly saved them against Belgium. And the tragedy of his career has been injuries. Were it not for injuries, this would be a household name everywhere.

needed to be nursed at a veteran stage, and Vito Pereira built his team well there to nurse Renato Augusto. So he did pretty well with Corinthians, and they didn't want to lose him at the end of the year. But lose him they did because, and here it becomes a little bit sneaky and controversial, Vito Pereira was saying, I've got to go back to Portugal. Sorry, I'd love to stay. Love to stay, but I've got to go back to Portugal. It's my mother-in-law.

She's not well. My mother-in-law's not. I've got to go back to Portugal. And then the week after he left Corinthians, he signed for Flamengo in Rio, which is the biggest of big jobs. It is the glamour one, the one that everyone wants. And so he darkened his door a little bit there at Corinthians. I'm not sure that they'd welcome him back in a hurry. And Flamengo certainly wouldn't want him back. It was a strange decision by Flamengo to appoint him.

Now, Flamengo had just won the Brazilian Cup. They'd beaten Victor Pereira's Corinthians in the Brazilian Cup. They'd eliminated Victor Pereira's Corinthians in the Champions League, the Libertadores, and they'd won the Libertadores. So they'd won two big trophies.

And even so, they sacked their coach. Now, why on earth, you are asking, if you were still awake, I can see you there at the back. Why on earth would they sack their coach, who's now Dorival Jr., he's now Brazil's coach, and replace him with Victor Pereira? The answer is, as a result of winning the Libertadores, they were through to the Intercontinental.

The competition, which is probably with a yawn on the way from you lot, is currently underway in Doha. It plays massively over here. And Flamengo are thinking intercontinental, Real Madrid, bring it on. We need a European coach to take on Real Madrid. That's what we want. And the Portuguese coaches have done exceptionally well in Brazil recently. So Flamengo sack their coach.

Brought in Victor Pereira, who suddenly forgot the health of his mother-in-law, for this game against Real Madrid. But they lost to Al Hilal of Saudi Arabia in the semifinal. So it didn't even get that far. And from that moment, he was a dead man walking. From that moment, he ended up only staying two or three months. There were tactical problems there.

It's a big club, Flamengo. As Rory well knows, it's probably the club outside Europe with the potential to be a global giant. Lots of big egos and also two strikers. And he couldn't get the two strikers to work.

He tried all sorts of little tactical tweaks. And in the end, it all went very, very wrong very quickly. And he just looked lost in his whole time here. So he was then sent packing. So I think in Brazil, there'll be a lot of eyebrows raised about the idea of a Premier League club chasing him. Although...

Those in Europe will say, look at the success he's had in both Portugal and in Greece, although that's a fair while ago. One of the other lines that I read was that some players at Corinthians didn't take to his temper too well and that he has had a temper throughout his career, which also, I mean, I know I sort of keep laughing at this, but it just doesn't seem...

Given the way Wolves' last two games have ended, having a manager with a temper, I'm not sure that's a very good idea. A calming influence. Yes, well, I suppose you would say he has got considerable European experience and he does speak the right language for the club. Well, yeah, and they have, as most people know, a history of Portuguese managers. He hasn't. I mean, we've mentioned his two Brazilian spells there, Rory.

He doesn't, and he was at Porto as well, he doesn't tend to last very long at his various clubs, does he? It's a year here, a year there. Yeah, he came through as a kind of...

Dead Man's Shoes is a bit harsh at Porto, but I interviewed him when he was at Porto in that first spell, and it was a long time ago now, which makes me feel old and slightly depressed. But I think he'd got it after Villas-Boas, and he was kind of seen as the next one off the rank, the next cab off the rank, effectively. And it's difficult to gauge the success of those Porto managers in that period, because they had...

far better players than anybody else in Portugal they had a much bigger budget they were kind of in their in their pomp they were making Europa League finals and stuff so whether he was whether there was enough enough of a sample in his time at Porto I'm not sure I guess that the flip side is you'd say he's worked for fairly erratic clubs is probably the right word that's where his career has taken him because he has tried to get jobs in England before he's been

He let me interview him because he wanted a job in England. That's why he was talking to me. It wasn't because of my sparkling wit. And he obviously tried to get the Everton job a couple of years ago and was close until the Everton fans decided they didn't want him. So I think he clearly wants to be in England. And because he's not been able to get one of those jobs that he really wants, he has maybe taken slightly more, yeah, volatile jobs other than the spell in Brazil where obviously Torincheans and Flamengo are huge teams.

And there is a bit of a vote for Portuguese managers. I think he's maybe struggled to get the sort of job he wants. I mean, I know what Tim means about Brazilian fans raising their eyebrows, Premier League team wanting him. But at the same time, and I say this with due respect, Wolves aren't Flamengo. Very quickly, Tim, before we let you go, could you see, maybe not Flamengo, but certainly Corinthians, could you see them improve under his coaching?

Oh, with Corinthians. No, Flamingo was a disaster all the way along. Corinthians, yes. I think he did a sound job and he was able to adapt to what he had. He got the best out of a player in Renato Augusto who was very good but needed nursing at an injury prone veteran stage in his career. And he made that one work.

So you could see there, with his work at Corinthians, why he would be in the shop window for other clubs. Thank you very much, Tim. Tim Vickery with us on the Monday Night Club. If he does take over, Chris...

How much of a chaotic position, how much of a chaotic club do you think from the outside he is coming into? Bearing in mind in recent weeks they've conceded three penalties in one game, changed their captain, conceded an injury time goal to lose to a relegation rival and had a player sent off in the tunnel afterwards.

Well, I think you've answered your own question there. I mean, you'd say that that's pretty chaotic. But the one beauty, I think, of coming into the Wolves' job is I think that he has...

a group of players who are really capable of staying in the Premier League. And that's why essentially I think Gary O'Neill got the sack because I know that, you know, he did well last season, the mess which he took over, got them to 14th, 46 points this season, you know, spoken about how difficult is the promoted sides.

but Wolves, we know they lost Kilman and they lost Neto. And there's an argument to say they didn't replace them, but they still have enough experienced international players quality within the squad to be performing much better than they have done. And, and,

conceding goals has been their biggest issue. 40 goals in 16 games, two and a half goals a game. You're not going to stand the Premier League. So that's the first situation which he will have to address. But I do think that they are a group who are talented and a new manager going in has a real chance of keeping them up. Stephen, did you not tip them to go down at the start of the season? Yeah, yeah. I'm not just saying this because you're wrong, but

that is an amazing shout well he probably is I mean he probably is but it helps because I don't I don't think anyone even with selling Kilman and Netto which obviously in hindsight is not great

I don't think many people would have had Wolves. Because Gary O'Neill had done a good job, they've been around for a while, they seem like a solid Premier League team, there's enough talent there that you kind of think they'll probably be okay. What made you think they'd go down? It was off the back of last season when they went, I was at 10 games at the end of the season where they didn't pick up a result. But then I also looked at the back four, back five, if you look at the goalkeeper. Wasn't overly convinced with Sar. Then they brought in...

Johnson, wasn't overly convinced with that signing. The two fullbacks, Semedo isn't a fullback. He's a wingback. He can't defend. Ignore he's a very attack-minded player. And I just thought at the back, Dawson's not getting any younger and he's been an outstanding performer for a long time. But then...

What is your defence? Well, you stay within a league off the back of your defence. And I think a lot of the thought process was try and protect the defence. And I just didn't see it with them. And I also look up front and think there's no goals in the team. I know everyone goes on about Kunja. He's a talent, but he can't score. He scores a worldie every now and again, but he's not going to score you 15 goals a season to keep you up.

and the one thing that really surprised me was actually and I love him and I think he's a great player was why you'd sell Raul Jimenez I know it wasn't last season but for a player of that quality he's

He's exactly what Wolves need. He'll chip in with 10 goals a season, maybe a few more, but it's his work rate off the ball. It's that tenacity up front to pest the defenders constantly. None of the Wolves players are pests. None of them. I don't look at any Wolves player and really think, God, I wouldn't fancy playing against you. A few of them are nasty in a way, but they're cowards when they do it. They're not tenacious in the way that they play. So I just felt like...

The job Gary O'Neill was going to do is hard. They seem pretty tenacious after the final whistle. Yeah, anyone can do that, can't they, Chris? That's brave. But you still look at their squad, you look at the teams who came up and you still back them, other than...

yourself, but you, you know, I'd still think that they have enough. I think you're being slightly harsh on, on, on, on Kunya. I think he's a goal every two games and, you know, maybe they're, maybe they're sort of over-reliant on him, but they still have experienced international players. And you look at them last season, 46 points is a decent return. For him to only have nine points or whatever is at this stage, that is, that,

is really underperforming. And Gary O'Neill, his behaviour became slightly erratic. He threw the players under the bus in the last couple of weeks, blaming everybody bar himself. And that's the reason why they had no choice really but to get rid of him.

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Let's widen the discussion out really because two Premier League managers have lost their jobs over the weekend but I mentioned earlier Des Buckingham has lost his job at

at Oxford, having got them promoted through the playoffs. Neil Harris has gone at Millwall. I mean, there are plenty of managers who've lost their job this season as well. We're seeing Pep Guardiola really going through the mill emotionally at Manchester City as well. And Pep has spoken about not being able to sleep, only managing to eat soup in the evenings. And it feels...

I don't know, it feels maybe more than ever that this role is more pressured than ever. And Michael Caulfield, sports psychologist, joins us, friend of Five Live Sport. Evening, Michael. Thank you very much for coming on. My pleasure. Does it feel as close to the limit as it has ever done, this profession? Yes, it does, because the interest in scrutiny only grows because I was reading a book recently on football and

And football has now been almost officially recognised as the most popular pastime in the history of the world. And that is why we're interested in talking about it. And therefore, there has to be a knock on effect because we know everything about everything now in football. Do you know what? So, I mean, that is very, very true. And therefore, is the most important thing, and I was reading a...

basically a sort of article or a handbook from the LMA earlier, the League Managers Association, on what they do to help their members. And there are lots of subtitles on this article. Resilience, self-awareness, emotional understanding, sense of direction. Work-life balance is the one that properly stands out for me because having spoken to so many managers and interviewed so many managers,

I genuinely can't see how they get a work-life balance. And I wonder whether that's the biggest problem. It is the biggest problem. You've just sparked a memory there that we've just, I mean, in a year when we've had a general election, it's almost like being on a campaign trail for 12 months. And they fall, all those people who've campaigned fall over, exhausted at the end of it. And

Football is exhausting and I have the pleasure of working it and it's a privilege and I thank my lucky stars every day, Mark, that I work in it. It is glorious in many ways. But part of my role at Brentford, who I'm lucky to be associated with, is not just the players and the coaches and the support staff. It's everyone because the effort that goes into putting a team on a pitch on a Saturday or Tuesday, or in our case this week, a Sunday night, then a Wednesday night and then a Saturday afternoon,

It does put people under pressure and the one person who gets the most scrutiny is the head coach, in our case the head coach. And what I've noticed over the years, and I've been intrigued Mark by football managers all through my life, I really have going back to Shankly and Paisley and Bill Nicholson, that really is one of the history students there, forget John Beck at that point. It's just the interest in them now is extraordinary.

because they have to comment, I've noticed this, on absolutely everything. It always comes back to what does the manager think? And over the years, they've done it from COVID to almost Brexit to anything you care to mention, potholes in the road, the traffic, the price of hamburgers. What does the manager think? And I think football has not been good historically at sharing that responsibility and that workload and responsibility.

I know from my personal experience that the club I'm lucky to be associated with, Brentford, we try to share that because otherwise the manager or head coach will just fall over exhausted and it's just too much for one person. Michael, can I ask you a quick question when you're working with Thomas Frankland? So getting that work-life balance, is he aware of how hard he's working or do you have to go to him and say...

or the staff and say, maybe we need a couple of days out of this environment to take us away. Because obviously the pressures that come with a managerial job are, you've just talked about there, about everyone expects so much. And we all moan if someone has a day off. And it's like, well, you're not working on the training pitch. We used to moan. I'm pleased you've asked, Stephen, because I think this be there seven days a week culture has to stop at some point. And I noticed actually, and you're speaking about Pep Guardiola at the moment,

who's had such a profound effect on football that he mentioned in the last international week, the second last one, the October one, he almost puffed his cheeks out in a television interview and went, oh, everyone can just have a few days off. And I think in the past, Stephen, that was frowned upon. But I know, well, I know from personal experience now that that is, A, it's not frowned upon. And now you have to manage your own energy as much as you manage the players' energy. And that's the head coach, the coaches, the support staff, the operations, the kit, everything.

because it's a major thing now to to to get a game on and the people that travel with the team and you simply we are not designed to work seven days a week 24 hours a day with the pressure and the scrutiny that comes with it we're simply not and i think football

is slowly coming around to that and you mentioned our head coach Thomas Frank he's very aware of it himself I'm very aware of it I've known him now for eight years and we all know each other pretty well we've all been there the best part of eight years which is one of our strengths because we know each other pretty well and you're allowed to go up to someone and say I think you could do with a little short few days off here because otherwise you're no good to anyone and

The phrase I use in life more than anything, Stephen, is fatigue makes fools of us all. It really makes idiots of us. And if you're exhausted, what do you do? You should take a short rest.

But then, can I say that? Guilt-free. Take a short rest guilt-free. And our head coach and other senior members of staff are good at that. Thomas travels, he skis, he has friends and interests. Nothing to do with football. And that's healthy. It doesn't make him a poor manager. In fact, it makes him a really good manager because then you've got some energy left for training players and above all, match days. How hard, Michael, is that...

Not with Thomas Frank, but when you are... And this is the psychology of anybody in sport, I suppose. When you are struggling, when you are at the bottom, like Russell Martin and Gary O'Neill have been, the idea of going, have a couple of days away, is such an alien concept to them because fans will go, and I get this from fans,

How on earth, how can you not be at the training ground when we've only got five points from six games or nine points or we've just conceded five or we've had two players sent off or conceded three penalties? You need to work, work, work.

And actually, I'm guessing two days off would probably do them more good than three extra sessions at the training ground. Rather than do work, work, work, I would just say delegate, delegate, delegate. Otherwise, what's the point of having all those good members of staff? And that goes back 30, 40 years when I think Archie Knox went to see Sir Alex Ferguson and said, Gaffer, there's no point in me being here. You don't let me do anything. I think that's the moment when Sir Alex went, actually, he's right. He

He's right. And I think what's the point of having really good staff if you can't delegate in any walk of life? It'd be like me, Mark, asking you to produce this show, write the show, edit the show and publicise the show. You don't. You present it. I have to say very well because I listen every week. But you present it. You're not there doing every single job. And you mentioned there the fans reaction. That's a reaction we have to pay attention to.

But it shouldn't be why you do or don't do things, because you must manage yourself and help manage the team and manage your staff. But I will say, and I've worked at three different clubs and two of those clubs have been relegated from the Premier League. So I know the stresses that brings. And it's this word guilt. You almost think I can't have an hour to myself or can't think for myself because you have to be there all the time. Well, I think that only ends one way. And I do know Gary O'Neill. He was a player at Middlesbrough when I was there.

And you can just see them get so tired and so exhausted because this is a sport you can't solve and you can't fix. They look haunted, Michael. They do. By the end, they look haunted. And I could remember saying to Frank Lampard in the summer, God, you look really well. And that's probably because every other previous time I'd seen him in the last 18 months was either at Everton or Chelsea second time round. And how

And how well do managers look when they're on the television or the radio or doing media work when they're not in work? They look like film stars. But as Ruben Amron said last, when he first got the job at Manchester United, I'm very worried not to speak about other clubs because I have no knowledge of other clubs. But he said he did more media in a week than he'd done in four years at Sporting Lisbon. And of course, that's one of the most famous clubs in the world in world sport, let alone football. So that's Manchester United. But

even at Brentford, which is not the size of Manchester United, that the pressure and the scrutiny is intense, especially if you play two or three times a week. And that's why rest, you rest your players. So why don't you rest your staff or rest yourself? It's nonsensical to me. And that's why I try and start conversations and encourage people to have a more balanced outlook if you can. But it's hard. Gosh, it's hard, Mark.

I was going to say, Michael, the idea of the manager having to speak on every subject, I have thought for a long time is one of the really, really strange curiosities about

English football in particular. And I think the fact that you very rarely hear player voices or technical director voices increasingly, I think is odd. And it's interesting, there's quite a lot of managers now who will happily say, look, this isn't my job. I don't know. I don't know the answer to the question about the contract negotiations because I'm not doing that. And you can almost sense the relief of them within them as they say it. But what I wanted to ask was,

Do you think football encourages people to have outside interests as Thomas Frank does? Or do you think it kind of incentivizes what in another light would look like a kind of obsessive, compulsive approach to work, which would generally be regarded as unhealthy? And how do you change that?

Gosh, why do we start with that one? Football is the most obsessive thing I've ever worked in in my entire life. It obsesses me. I mean, I'm thinking of our matches this week. You do all the time. You're walking your dog. You're in the room with people, but you're not because you're thinking, how can you help? But again, my interest in coaching and managers and how they cope, I go back to football.

Bill Shankly, Shanks, Bill Shankly resigned from Liverpool completely and utterly exhausted 50, 60 years ago. He was completely exhausted. And then Jurgen Klopp, 50 years later, in that famous quote, I'm running out of energy. And I think that clubs internally, and I hope hopefully we're one of them, you do address that. And it is discussed because you should not feel guilty about

for discussing your own health because it's mad to think you can keep going at this pace non-stop all of the time with that amount of scrutiny and pressure. It is simply not humanly possible. And we haven't changed, Rory, that much as human beings. I keep going about this. The world has changed. Technology has changed. Look at us this evening. But we as people fundamentally have not changed that much.

And we're trying to squeeze every ounce of energy out of us when there's none left. And I think I'll go back to my point. You make mistakes and you make poor decisions when you're completely exhausted. And as for managers themselves, I know they have to. I've stressed more than once that in that 20 minutes to half an hour after the final whistle, that is when you are more than likely to talk nonsense.

Not your best words because you're still in, I call it fight mode and you want to fight everyone and fight everyone around you. And that's when you can say something you can regret literally 20 minutes later. And I would urge all managers where possible, because I listened to sports report driving home still every Saturday and Mark, you go live to interview someone. And I honestly always hope it's at least 20 minutes, 20 to 30 minutes after the final whistle. Well, at least I've had a chance to,

to put their brain back into some degree of normal mode. Because at that moment in time, it'd be like interviewing a boxer halfway through a round. You wouldn't do it. You simply wouldn't do it. So what interests me is you talk about, you know, it's important Thomas Frank takes time out.

And this is a very individual thing. I only had a year in management, but you don't stop thinking about it. So albeit you have that time off, but it consumes my thoughts from the moment I wake up to the last, you know, until I went to bed.

at night because everybody has this personal pride. You want to be a success. You want to do well. So it's okay. You know, Pep Bang, he's tired and, you know, could maybe have a couple of days off, but he won't stop thinking about that because of the nature of the type of guy he is and everything, uh, which he is, uh,

has won and he will want to get back to that level. So every thought will be about, if he's away from Manchester City, what can I do to change? So that's sort of impossible, isn't it? And imagine me telling Pep Guardiola how to coach. That would be fun, wouldn't it? But he did take a year out at one point to go and live in New York to recharge himself. And he's been doing this now for a number of years.

But what I'd also say that, Chris, and I listen to you every week and when I was asked on this evening, I thought, I know at some point, Chris, something will come for me because I think, who's this idiot telling me how to how to how to tell me how to live my life? But doing that in itself skill as you had one year at it, Chris, is an unbelievable skill. It's as big a skill as putting on a training session or picking a team or discussing tactics or discussing recruitment skills.

To get that balance right in your life takes an enormous amount of skill and practice because otherwise I think in the end it did it for shanks. It will completely consume you and you can't live like that. You simply can't. I say there's two types of stress, Chris. There's good stress. I'm good. I'm encountering good stress at the moment because I really look forward to doing this show. I listen to it every week. And then your producer rings me at 630 saying, can you come on? It took me one second.

To say yes. But bad stress is when you're terrified of something and you think it's going to get you and you're haunted, to use Mark's word earlier, because you're so tired you can't think clearly and the stress literally and that cortisol that runs around your body just grips you and beats you up. It's interesting you talked about the delegation, Michael, because I was having this very discussion over the weekend about, and this is not to blame the modern player by any means,

And this is maybe because of Guardiola and how he coaches. But the modern player now expects, and Stephen may disagree, I don't know, but the manager or the head coach to be a visible presence on the training ground. It's not that role now isn't...

like Fergie was a little bit, okay, I'll leave the training to a Steve McLaren or a Carlos Quiroz or an Archie Knox, as Michael's mentioned. Now, you are the head coach, you are the manager, and this philosophy, as we've talked about, the tactics, the style of how we're going to play, that is the manager and head coach being present on the training ground doing those drills. That has certainly, Michael, hasn't it, become more prevalent in the last decade, and I'm guessing increases performance

pressure and workload because that's harder to delegate. It is. So therefore, again, I don't, I'm nervous in front of such an esteemed Zoom list tonight. Save your energy for that then because I think, I mean, our head coach, he wants to be, he is on the pitch every single training session. But when I walk in the morning and see him tomorrow morning, I'll say good morning, Thomas, because he's friendly and amenable and he'll ask me questions

how I am back. But apart from that, I wouldn't go near him before training because all of his energy has to go into that training session. Now it might be a little bit different afterwards and it's well known he enjoys the game of paddle and he may be playing paddle at 2:30 and that's a wonderful way of A keeping fit, B relaxation, C beat the staff at paddle, which he loves doing and you go from there, but save your energy for the really important things. But I think then also in between when there are short breaks,

in the fixed list or the international weeks, that's when you must make the most of that time to get your energy back. Otherwise, it will just beat you up eventually. You can't live like that. Michael, I'm fortunate. I know one of the guys at your place who's looking after the academy now and he's talked about the youngsters coming through and what Brentford are trying to do is they're trying to encourage them not just to fully focus on football, but to play other sports.

and to sort of take their attention away just to give them more than just football. How important do you think that is for the youngsters growing up? Because I think there's an element where footballers are getting burnt out because they are now in academies at the age of six rather than when I was coming through, it was 10. We used to train twice a week. Now they're training five or six times a week. How important is that side of it now for the youngsters?

I would say it's more important than ever. And I'm glad you've raised it, Stephen. And I presume you're referring to Stephen Torpy. I am, yes. Yeah. And what a good man that is, by the way. We've had two or three months discussing it internally about the academy, which is opening or has opened. And one of the lines I said at the beginning was, I think one of our responsibilities is to give children their childhood back, really give it back to them. And I don't just mean children.

by playing football, I mean by doing lots of other things too. Because some of the greatest athletes and footballers ever have got multiple interests and multiple hobbies. And my fear for current football, I won't use the word modern football because it's modern today, it'll be out of date in two weeks time, but my fear for current football

is eventually you will turn people off it because you can have too much of it and children like the rest of us can get exhausted and if they're doing school all day and football all night and travelling

and the rest of it, then they've got no time left to have a childhood. And that's when I think you're at risk of them losing their love. And the phrase I actually put up often, and I have done it with the first team, with the B team in the academy, is I use a quote from Scolari before the 2014 World Cup. And he said, football's become very professional. In fact, he said, sometimes it's become too professional. My job now is sometimes to make it less professional.

to bring the joy back into the sport. And I use that word so much in that we must never take the joy out of playing football. Stephen, because when you grew up in Liverpool, all you thought about when you should be paying attention at school was playing football and going out in the park. And I heard that phrase yesterday about football.

the young man I did play who had that wonderful game yesterday, is he played almost as if he was from the streets. And we must never lose that in football because otherwise it'll become functional, dull, and people will get tired of it. And you must never do that. Michael, thank you very much for coming on. Michael Caulfield with us. Maybe that's why you listen every week because we do definitely make it less professional. So thank you very much for coming on.

I mean, you took it home with you, Chris, for your year in management. I know sometimes we laugh and joke about your year in management, but it was all consuming for you. Yeah, but that's the way, believe it or not. I think I'm wired with most things. So, you know, it's easy. I'm not dismissing anything that Michael said. I thought that was, you know, refreshing a lot, what he did say, but...

I think the nature, and I'd be interested to get Stephen's thoughts on this, when you go into sport, the nature of it is very competitive and you want to do the best that you possibly can. So you give it your all, whether it's physically or that's at the mental side. And of course, managing is different to playing. So there's always, you know, pep in play.

You know, in recent days has talked about trying to find solutions. And that's, you know, that's what management is about. When things are going well, you can have your days off and what have you. But when things aren't going well and it's a struggle, you know, it consumes every thought. So it's very, very difficult then to actually switch off. It's interesting, isn't it? Because we're now in the media and we...

We strive to be the best within the media and try and be across everything and read up on as much as possible and be as sort of as knowledgeable as you can be. So there is a pressure with it because you're always on the cusp of upsetting someone or having an opinion that people don't agree with. And I do think you've got to be thick skinned at times because your opinion won't always hit with everyone. There will be people who will kick back at it and sort of

call you everything under the sun. So there is that side of it. But I just think when you've got a fan base of, say, 20,000, 30,000 every week and your decision-making instantly on a pitch is questioned or straight after the game, as Michael was talking about there, and you're being quizzed about why it's gone wrong, how it's gone wrong, I think that's a lot harder than what we do. I know it's...

It's so much pressure that you're living with on a day-to-day basis. And also as well, managing people. That's a completely different skill set. I don't have to manage anyone in my job. I manage myself. I manage my schedule. But it's also not just managing. I can remember Graham Potter saying that he was looking forward to getting back in.

to help improve people within the organisation. Depends what your... And he said people within the... He didn't say players. He said the people within the organisation. So it depends what type of manager you are, doesn't it? If you're a certain type of manager, like Graham Potter, and we know the whole emotional intelligence around Graham and so on, Thomas Frank's like that as well. Mm-hmm.

it's more than just a first team for them. So you are managing others. It's a completely different skill set, isn't it? I mean, that skill set is just incredible to be able to do that. But it's almost like Michael said again, it's like, well, delegate, pass that on to other people. But you almost become a control freak.

And you want to manage everything. You want to be able to control everything because, again, it's like, no, I want to be the best at that. I want everyone to say, oh, he's great at that, but he also does this and he also does this. So there is an element of that that kicks in as well. Pep has had it very easy for a number of years, though. He's won so many things. I mean, when I was Lincoln manager, we were 4-0 down after 10 minutes against Port Vale and they missed a penalty, Mark. I mean, you know, let me tell you, that was strange. You had it harder than Pep.

Oh, absolutely. 4-0 down at Port Vale of all places. Blimey. We ended up losing 4-0 and that felt like a victory on the coach on the way back. Just on the delegation, which I thought was really interesting. I mean, everything Michael said was fascinating, but that in particular struck me because I think increasingly we have delegated a lot of traditional managerial roles. So most managers now don't do the scouting.

They're not also their own chiefs. I remember when I was a kid, you'd occasionally see a manager miss a game, even in the professional levels, because he'd gone to watch a player. Now, there's huge departments to do that. There's technical directors who are in charge of it. There's the data people do the data and the set piece coach does the set pieces. And we've kind of divvied up those roles, sliced and diced them pretty effectively. But what

what's really strange is that all of the pressure is still on the manager that if things are going wrong it is the manager who pays that if if a result is poor or performance is poor it's it's the assumption is from fans from media from everybody that's the manager's fault the manager is to blame for that they have to answer the questions they have to be grilled about it they have to face this inquisition they're the ones ultimately who are sacked when things are disappointing

But it's the team, Rory, as well, who's sacked. I was listening to Eddie Howe on a podcast talking about why he didn't end up going to Celtic because he didn't have all the team which he normally takes with him weren't ready to go. Yeah, and that's as it should be, I suppose. But it's interesting that there's not that... Until you cure football of that sense of ultimately this is one person's responsibility, I think you are placing, as Stephen says...

Lots of people working high pressure jobs. Lots of people take their work home with them. Lots of people suffer from stress. But there are very few, I think, industries where it's basically just one person. There's not really any support networks. You know, you have a bad few weeks and that's it. You're done. Most jobs don't operate like that. That's it. The Football Daily is back tomorrow with the Women's Football Weekly. Yoga is more than just exercise. It's the spiritual practice that millions swear by.

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