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Hello everybody, welcome on to 72 Plus, the home of the EFL from BBC Radio 5 Live with me, Aaron Paul. With me as ever though, to my right arm, it's Joby McEnough. Hello, Jobes. How are you, mate? You all good? Yeah.

All good. Christmas party season well in swing. I'm sure you've been invited to many. I've got to be honest, the mailbox has been very, very quiet. I'm definitely missing the days of the Christmas parties when you were with squads and going out. I was with the other day in the studio and they were on their way to a Christmas do after in Winter Wonderland, somewhere like that in London. So, yeah, unfortunately for me in this role, I've

A bit of quiet Christmas with no real parties, to be honest with you, mate. Just a bit of a look ahead to next week's Christmas special being released on Christmas Eve. Tell me, how excited are you to...

get everyone listening to our episode or to introduce everyone again to Neil Warnock? Yeah, listen, it was absolutely brilliant, wasn't it? Getting a bit of time with him. And I think the thing with Neil at this stage of his career, listen, he hasn't had much of a filter throughout most of it, I've got to be honest. But I think now in terms of where he is, obviously currently, you know, at his stage,

He's so open, you know, some of the stories. And again, for us, you sort of tee him up with a question and that's it. He's gone for five minutes and then he sort of finishes one and then there's another one around the corner. And yeah, just a brilliant character. Someone who I think that anyone around the game's got a huge amount of respect for, given what he has done. And it was just a fabulous episode and one that I'm sure everyone would absolutely love listening to.

Yeah, loads of stories. Make sure you check it out. It'll be available on the Football Daily feed on Christmas Eve. A festive treat for you, though. Always a pleasure to welcome the kid of InstaHarris boss, Phil Brown, a.k.a. Daddy Cool, to the podcast. How are you, Phil? Daddy Cool? Where's that one come from? You've got a different name for me every time I come on, has I? Warfellip.

The Sparky. Warfellip is my favourite. You know that one's my favourite. Brown Dog in the ring. That's a good one. Yes, yes. Had a few games. But no, Daddy Cool. Phil Brown, you. Unbelievable. Listen, I'm having a good time. We're winning games of football at the moment, and when you talk about Christmas do's, the boys were on a Christmas do on Saturday night all day Sunday, and I

and I've been involved with a couple of Christmas dudes in my team where I've felt foul of the law a couple of times. You know, players have come back in a bad state, et cetera, et cetera, and I've had to discipline them. But this time, it's been, it was priceless. We went to Radcliffe

and beat them 4-0 on their patch, and then the lads went out in Manchester, and no phone call from the police. Absolutely fantastic, Ty. Are you bringing them in Christmas Day? That's what we want to know. No, I'm not. I've always thought that it's a... Listen, it's good, bad, indifferent, whatever you want to call it, but I've got history on Boxing Day, as you well know, that half-time team talk in Man City. That was on Boxing Day, and...

and Christmas Day, it wasn't the best advert for football, shall we say, or certainly for professionalism. And I've always thought Christmas Day is a time for family. And if you can't do your work two days or three days before a game of football,

you're not a good coach in my opinion you should be able to give them one day off box a day turn up all guns blazing Kidderminster players there you go you heard it here first you are off on Christmas Day big news there coming out of Kidderminster Harriers and from their manager Phil Brown Phil great to be alongside you for this one let's get cracking though surprising news this week Oxford United are

They've sat their manager, Des Buckingham, after 13 months in charge at the Kassam with the club a point above the relegation zone. Let's bring in Conor Penfold from the Manor podcast. And Conor, the feeling when this news was announced, I mean, it was unanimous, wasn't it? It was one of shock and anger towards the football club's board. Yeah, it certainly was. My initial reaction when I saw the news broke on Sunday was exactly that. It was shock. It was disbelief. It was a little bit of anger as well.

I was on BBC Radio Oxford after the game on Saturday and I reinforced the point that I'd be quite happy to get relegated under Des Buckingham's leadership. So to see us sacking less than 24 hours later, I was very surprised. I find what you just said amazing. You said you'd be happy to get relegated under Des Buckingham's leadership. Obviously for the ownership group, it's survival or bust really. They don't really care about anything else.

What brought you guys so close to your manager? Why would you say something like that? Surely you don't want to see your club relegated. No, I mean, no one does want to see their club relegated. I mean, we entered the championship for the first time in 25 years. We were realistic about that. I think as a fan base, we knew we'd be up against it. We've got a manager who, or we did have a manager, who is a boyhood Oxford United fan, born and raised in Oxford, came back to the club after spending some of his early career there as a coach under Chris Wilder.

Got us promoted, like you say, that amazing day at Wembley in May. And we created that just incredible rapport with him. He was one of us. And unfortunately, the board took the decision that they have done. And there are reasons for that. And I'm sure we'll dig into that as well. But I don't think it was the right choice at the time. Connor, just going back on that point, I mean, I was very fortunate enough to do the playoff final and Des was absolutely brilliant. You could see the emotion, that

that connection that he had with the football club, but also the weight of expectation, being an Oxford boy through and through, you could really feel that in the lead-up to the game as well. And there was such relief, I think, first and foremost in his mind once he had got over the line. Just in terms of the start to the season, do you think that maybe has skewered

I suppose what the reality was for Oxford United this year, obviously it was a positive beginning to the season, but things have tailed off recently. I think there has been mitigating circumstances, injuries to key players, particularly in those forward areas. So do you think it's a matter of maybe the board just panicking a little bit to the recent run, given how positive the start was to the season? Yeah, I mean, the thing is, it was a really good start, as you say. And I do think...

One of the realities is that this is arguably a League One squad with a few championship quality players sprinkled in. And I think that obviously the loading on the players in the championship is something that a lot of them have never experienced before. And plus those key injuries, as you've said, to players in wide areas, particularly people like, you know, Sir Iki Dembele. And obviously we have the injury to Cameron Branigan as well. You know, and Dez wanted to play with width. He wants to play with high energy wingers. And we didn't really recruit that well, I didn't think, in those key areas.

I think you recruited the best out of all the teams that have gone up. I mean, if you look at what Pompey fans are saying, they're astounded at the lack of recruitment. And Derby, naturally, you've heard it from the manager as well in terms of Paul Warne. He's come out and said, well, I've got nothing. I remember two weeks into the season, he still might go into the free agent market for a four. But is that feeling again? Is that feeling unanimous? Because you have brought in the likes of...

Suriki Dembele, Matt Phillips, Jack Curry's been, well, Jack Curry should be playing for your first team. I don't know why he's on loan at Leighton Orient, but you've brought in some EFL bonafide championship experience. I'm not sure about the recruitment thing.

I mean I think it depends as I say we all have our own opinions on this I think you know players like Matty Phillips for example obviously he does have that level of championship experience but he's not the type of winger that Des Buckingham would want in this side he's not a dynamic winger that can get past players and get to the ball to the byline and put crosses across

you know, into the box, which is one of the ways we were so successful last season with Josh Murphy on the other side, for example, at the time. So yes, we have recruited some good quality championship players, but a lot of them have had a lot of League One experience and haven't played in a championship before. You know, you look at Idris Amizouni, for example, never played in a championship before.

He's never stepped up to that level. And I think it's a multitude of factors. I still don't believe in my heart of hearts that Dez Buckingham should have been sacked at this point in the season. I think it's an extremely harsh decision to be made by the club

But there are obviously reasons why it's happened. Can I interject there? Having known Dez quite well over in India and I thought he was an absolute fit when he got the job at Oxford United, then being part and parcel of the BBC coverage for the playoffs against Bolton and rightly so went up because he won the biggest game of the season and Bolton collapsed. That's their problem, not yours. And then Oxford go into the next division.

Results eventually get managers. Six defeats in seven. And Dez will hold his hands up to that. Everyone's going to look for a reason as to why he's left the football club. Could it simply be results? The fact that Oxygen United are sliding a touch. One draw, five losses in the last five games. It's not just you guys who are sliding. There are other teams that are sliding as well. Cardiff City are one of them.

Are the board trying to be proactive ahead of January and going, right, let's do the best we can to try and get someone in before January. They can assess what they want. We can try and give them a little bit of money and simply we can try and stay up.

Aaron, if you look at the league table, Oxford United are not in a relegation position. So therefore, results get you. We get that part. Six out of seven. I get that part seriously. But they're not in a relegation position. If you had said to the board of directors almost halfway into the season, you're not in a relegation position with the amount of teams around you, by the way. Plymouth beneath you, Portsmouth beneath you. It's phenomenal. You know, Cardiff's struggling, as you've just made reference to. So Oxford are not in a relegation zone, but he's got the sack. This

This is a manager who got you promoted six months ago. I do not get it. I just don't see where the connect is with getting the sack and what's happened at Oxford United over the last year. Just in terms of, you know, we speak a lot about results and performances and clearly they haven't been good enough of late. Was it maybe...

that last couple in particular in terms of when you're looking at the performance side again if you are looking at it a little bit more objectively taking the emotion out of it I suppose and saying you know certainly you know against QPR a team that has been down there I know they've had a little bit of a pickup recently and then obviously Sheffield Wednesday again who you know didn't have a great start to the season is it the type of performance and maybe a lack of

what the hierarchy might perceive to be the level required to get themselves out of this mess that they're in that is maybe done for Des Buckingham in the end there, Connor? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I go home and away with Oxford, so I watch every minute. And yes, the most recent performance is particularly that QPR game is probably one of the worst performances we've had all season. However, I just think that

Yes, we're on the slide. Yes, there are other teams that are still below us. I still don't believe that Des Buckingham should have got the sack at the time that he has. I can see it slightly if I do take the emotion out, which is very difficult for me to do, given the fact I'm a football fan and football is all about emotions. That's the reason we go back every week. That's the reason I go with my friends, my family, etc. But...

if I do take the emotion out of it slightly, the club have clearly got ambitions to stay in this league and they're willing to cut that emotional tie to do that. Because of course, whoever comes in now, there's rumours that it's Gary Rauer at the moment.

What about the style of football change? Because it's going to be a complete change of gear from what you've seen under Dez Buckingham.

I mean this disappointment, if it is to be Gary Rowett, and that is what BBC Radio Oxford are saying, if it is to be Gary Rowett, it's going to be a complete and utter gear change from what you guys have seen over the past year to 18 months.

Exactly, yeah. It will be a huge change for us. And I think we are a fan base that does thrive off watching good attacking football. We had that under Karl Robinson for a long period of time when we were in League One and we came very close to getting to the Championship previous years. And we had it with Dez. And we also had it on a pre-spell with Liam Manning as well. So to have a manager perhaps that is not that way inclined with someone like Gary Rauer will be a kind of shock to the system for the fan base. However...

if Gary Rarrett with the vast experience he does have of championship level you know management if he can turn things around and keep us in this division if it is to be Gary Rarrett then of course you know people will start to warm to that because at the end of the day we do not want to get relegated no one really wants to get relegated do they let's be brutally honest

I have gone full circle but under Dez it would have been a bit different that's the emotional tie Phil as I said at the beginning absolutely Connor if you had to pick someone to bring in to lead your Oxygenited side who would you pick right now currently if those available it would be Mark Robbins I think it would have to be um

Although I think that would be a huge scoop for the club. And I do think deep down, I do think Gary Rau is still a relatively big scoop for a club like Oxygen United, given the fact of his championship level experience. So I'm not for a second suggesting that Gary would not be the right man for the job. I think it would be unfair on him to say that it would be.

It would still be Mark Robbins if it was up to me, but it's not up to me, unfortunately. I mean, surely they should be looking no further than Stephen Schumacher, Joby. Well, listen, I think that would be a great shout. You know, someone who I think plays a good brand of football, maybe a little bit more progressive than Gary Rowett, but also understands, you know, what it takes to succeed, you know, and I think that would be

for me, a smart appointment. Maybe there would be questions marks about him in the championship. Uh,

you know, a lot of his success came a little bit lower down. Whereas I think with Gary Rauert, with the proven track record at this level, not only just to make sure that Oxford survive, but potentially, and I'm assuming for everyone at the club and at the base of this decision, is they want the club to kick on. They want to establish themselves in the league. They don't want to be a team that just comes up, goes down, you know, comes back up again. And I think in terms of that,

Thinking a little bit further down the line, someone with that real pedigree at this level, you can see why, if it is to be Gary Rauer, or certainly why he's been heavily linked, because he's got a great, great pedigree at this level. Okay, Conor, thank you for joining us on 72 Plus. Really appreciate your time this morning. That is Oxford fan Conor Penfold from the Manor podcast. Be interesting to see where Oxford United go with this, Philip.

It will be. It really will be. I think now that I'm living in the area, you get a feel for the club a little bit more. You get to know supporters a little bit better and what they expect of the club. If you're talking about a league table and you go Premier League, Championship, First and Second, where did Oxford pitch in over the last 25 years? You would have said First Division Club. You wouldn't have said a Championship Club.

But 25 years ago, they were in the Championship and I think Brian Horton, I'm not too sure who was the manager at the time, I've got good connections with Oxford United with regards to Brian Horton who used to manage the club. He spoke so highly of the club, how well it was running, how the people are. You've got to understand what your terrace is all about. What do they want? Do they want entertaining football? Do they want a manager that's going to be progressive? And

And listening to what Conor was saying there about Gary Rowett being the pragmatic kind, OK, he's got experience in championship level. He actually got relegated last year, I think, with Birmingham, having took over from Tony Mowbray. And he was sort of shoehorned into that situation. Now, I'm not gauging Gary Rowett on that one situation by any stretch of the imagination. Gary Rowett's a damn good manager, there's no doubt about it, and a very experienced guy. Would he be a good fit, Bob?

for Oxford United I don't know I always thought that Des Buckingham was a great fit but clearly that's not to be the case so many jobs available now Joby and so many managers I don't know if I remember a time where managers with real good recent experience and relative success whatever you gauge that as in terms of available it's that time of the season as isn't it well I do think there is a little bit of

panic and I do believe the Oxford one is that I think they've had a good start I think they look at oh you know we could really build this season and establish ourselves and then you have that bad run which you're gonna have you have to remember Oxford United weren't one of those top teams last year that you know had a fantastic season from start to finish they came through late one of those

that managed to scrape through and then end up with a brilliant win at Wembley. But that squad, and again, because it's late in the day in terms of that rebuilding and adding to it, that takes a little bit longer because you're in a playoff final. And I would just like to have seen him given a bit of backing in January to just a little nod to the injuries they've had. And listen, Phil, we were speaking about you at Kidderminster when we had you on earlier in the season and going through a bit of a tough patch there.

and when you don't have your best players when you're in Oxford United, it really can take its toll, and I think that's what I would like to have seen and been given an opportunity either to reinforce in January with new sign-ins or just give them a bit of time for some of those boys to get back because I think it really would make a difference to those results that they're getting. Jorby, Jorby,

You've got a storm coming again today. There's been two or three storms. We've got to raid the storm. That's what managers do. You've got to raid the tough times. And when you've got four or five key players out, you've got to raid through that. But you've got to have the trust of the board. You've got to have the trust of the supporters. You've certainly, I think, got to have the trust of the players. And I thought Des Buckingham had that.

and when he won at Wembley, you two guys were there, I was there at the same time, you would never have put a microphone and a camera in his face straight after the game and said, when do you think you're going to get the sack? You know, he's actually got Oxford United into the championship, I'm not saying you should have a free ride for a year by any stretch of the imagination, if he's doing something drastically wrong, then okay, you pull the rug, but

But bottom line is he looks like a good coach. He looks like he's a good communicator. He's got great skill factors with regards to management. I just do not see it. For a club like Oxford United should be not thankful, but they should be grateful that they're in the championship and looking lately that they were going to stay in the championship. If you've taken a wrong turn and expected a weather podcast after what Phil Brown was talking about there with regards to storm warnings, bbc.co.uk forward slash weather is where you want to go.

On the Football Daily, 72 Plus, the EFL podcast. Listen on BBC Sounds.

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and Joby McEnough. Let's drop into League One. Bristol Rovers have also parted company with their manager, Matt Taylor, this week after just over a year in charge and the club in 20th. Joby, the recent record doesn't, you know, it doesn't speak well, does it? Three matches, no win, no goals. Goal difference of minus 11 and a new ownership group coming in. Yeah, I think we're going from one example of surprise and disappointment, I think, in terms of Oxford United to one that has been on the cards for years.

a very long time. You've referenced that the last little run of a few games, but this goes further, further back than that. I think certainly from Matt Taylor's perspective, it's about a year in total, wasn't it, at the football club. And I think when you look at the amount of games they've lost, actually for a club like Bristol Rovers, in terms of the backing they get, you had a big...

overhaul in the summer he was supported there was a lot of investment in that squad or certainly recruitment maybe a little bit too many and i think it's something like 16 players that came in but it is a squad that is massively underperforming and unfortunately when you have the results that they do and there are grumbles about style of play unfortunately there's only going to be one outcome and that's for him losing his job unfortunately

Yeah.

Very much so. Matt's been in the game long enough and he'll know that. I think the recruitment side is a buzzword when managers get the sack and you've got to delve a little bit further into it. What does a football club look like? I'm very fortunate at Kitty. I've got Dean Holdsworth, who was my assistant manager at Derby County back in the day. Dean Holdsworth, my head of recruitment, if you want to call him that, but director of football. And the conversations that we have behind closed doors, I can trust Dean with the conversation because he

if it's an individual conversation it doesn't go any further if it's a group conversation he gives his opinion and rightly so because that is the most important part does it now fall upon the manager to have the final say is the key question you know did Matt have the final say at Bristol Rovers by the looks of it you know

When five loanees come in, sometimes you think that's the part. You know, that's the transient part of the game where a looney comes in and everybody, by definition, says, well, he's not one of our players, therefore he's not going to give 100%. That's not always the case. Loanees come in. When they're not playing, then they start questioning, should I be here? Should I be back at my own, you know, parent club? Then you start questioning the commitment of the players, et cetera, et cetera. But if that's the problem, the commitment of the players have got the manager of the sack, then...

It's a sad state of affairs, unfortunately. But Matt will get a job. He's a very good lad, very good, experienced manager for me. And I think he'll walk back into another club in the first or second division. Joby, do we need to give the Bristol Rovers hierarchy some credit because they were patient? They let it run on. Or can we criticise them and say, well, you've let this fester, you've let it rot? No, I think, listen, we are the first here to call for managers to be given time. And we have to say, you know, in terms of

him going in there. There was, listen, there was an improvement initially, I think that first month or so, but I've got to say since then, you have to look around at the results, you know, the lack of real consistent form and results that they have been as probably patient as most ownership groups would be in the current climate. Um,

Again, maybe a question mark about was he the one who was making decisions on those players coming in? But we know the game isn't like that anymore. And ultimately, you have to get the best out of that group of players that is given to you. And again, I can only look at what's in that squad and the ability to see where they are on the table. And it just doesn't tally up.

at all and I just feel that unfortunately more often than not it is the manager that ends up bearing the brunt of it really interesting seeing Lee Catamore go in the other day again I think by all accounts wasn't necessarily a Matt Taylor appointment so has that sort of undermined him a little bit towards the end or was that decision almost made that if results didn't pick up they were going to look somewhere else and maybe Lee goes in there to be a part of a new group possibly their 20th Bristol Rovers season

the good thing for them is I look below and the teams down there below them are all worse than them. They're not having great... But that shouldn't be the conversation. It shouldn't be. When you look at the investment in the squad, the size of the club, that should be a team that is...

absolutely going for the playoffs I know it's not where they've been over the last couple of years and I just feel it's a football club that has underperformed in general and I think it's a really important decision now about who is the person to to try and take this club on in terms of where it should be and that should be top half at the very least of that division and trying to get into the playoffs there's no doubt about that. Jones there's a question I put to Azar as well

Is it a question that sometimes when you see a team like Wickham Wanderers overachieve to a certain extent, absolutely blowing the division away and top of the league, does that fall heavily on the ones that should be up there and are not and therefore underachieving? And it sort of comes back to haunt you, the fact that Wickham are doing so well and doing that well, they're ahead of Birmingham.

So everybody's expecting Birmingham to get promoted out of sight, etc, etc. But Wickham are setting such a high standard that maybe board of directors are looking at that. Why are they doing that with their bottom? Yeah, listen, I think you're always going to get those clubs that, again, if you're talking about budget and resources, Wickham shouldn't be anywhere near where they are. But it's a well-run football club. They've got a plan. They've got a structure. You know, they've got a manager who they did back when they were going for a really poor run of form. And they supported him and they enabled him to...

add what he needed to. And again, I'm sure he would have been very, very pivotal to those players coming through the door. But that goes again to that trust factor. And again, I just feel it's almost like the stoke of League One, I feel, with Bristol Rovers, you know, in terms of like they've thrown money at it. You know, they've tried different managers. It's a good, good support base at the football club, but they just can't seem to get it right. And I can't sort of...

put my finger on exactly what that is. It's a bit of a conundrum. I'm sure everyone in Bristol, certainly that side of Bristol, is scratching their head as to why that is the case. Okay, Joe. So now I ask you, with regards to the appointment going forward, it feels like in the EFL, and I'd say largely in the EFL because that's obviously who we cover and we look at and we analyse every week.

You're either going one way or another. You're a fork with regards to where you're going with regards to your next appointment. It's either going to be someone who's going to come in and stabilize you and do the basics right and we'll see where we end up or it's going to be style-based. Style, style, style, style, style. Someone has to come in, put in a philosophy,

play a certain brand of football and you're bringing someone in purely on style, forget reputation, anything like that. Look at Nassus Palacios at Stoke. It's all on style. Which way do Bristol Rovers go right now? Because there are crossroads. You say that they should be punching at the top end of the division and I'm with you. I'm fully with you. I wouldn't ever disagree with you. They should be

in that upper echelon of League One. But who do they go for? Look at Burton Albion. They've abandoned it with Mark Robinson and gone for Gary Boyer so that he can try and bring through the next crop of young players so effectively they can become one of those self-sustainable selling machines. So they've not gone for a style-based appointment. Is it a risk now for Bristol Rovers to go for a style-based appointment?

in case it goes wrong? Well, I would say, again, listen, every club is different and you have to look at it and its own merits. I think, you know, for me, given the squad and again, it's not as if, you know, Oxford United haven't got a squad that I feel should be competing in the top half of the championship, right? I don't think there's many people that would disagree with that.

Whereas I look at a Bristol Rovers and I think they should be. So for me, I would get a manager who is progressive, who can play a good style of football, but has a good track record in the division. I don't think this is a job for someone who's inexperienced, given what we've already discussed in terms of the expectation around the football club, you know, the pressure that comes with managing Bristol Rovers.

it's got to be someone who's got a decent record at the level, but is still young and hungry and willing to take the club on, you know, and really almost use this season. Listen, they shouldn't be anywhere near the relegation, but I know they're there, but they won't be at the end of this year. Should use this season to really establish themselves, the way they want to play, that philosophy, almost look at it as a time to really just bed everything in and then get ready to go for next year. Yes, there's a lot of work to be done first, but that's the way I think they should be looking at it.

It's a great question because I'm just thinking about this stale of football versus somebody who wears the shirt with pride, possibly.

And what I mean by that, stay with me on this one, I never classed myself as a good footballer. I just thought I was out there, I wore my heart on my sleeve and I wore the shirt with pride. And if I had to stop the winger first before getting the passes away, then that's my job. You know, as a right back, I had to stop the winger. Now, if you've got five or six of them in your team that are stopping the opposition from playing and then the other five or six are playing the kind of football that

has got the word stale attached to it, I'm going to jump on that bandwagon as an ordinary player. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Where Bristol Rovers are concerned, I've always thought whenever you went to Bristol Rovers, it was a tough gig. It's a game of football, there's no doubt about it, but you had to roll your sleeves up and win the battle first. And if you didn't win that battle, you can forget about it. They'll walk all over you. And it's almost like style of play versus substance. And I'm not too sure where Bristol Rovers lie at the moment. I think they've lost their identity is where I'm going with it.

We will see what happens with regards to Bristol Rovers and their hunt for a successor to Matt Taylor. Lee Catamount in through the door as set-piece coach. Days later, he becomes joint interim manager with David Horsman. Best of luck to Lee and David going forward. Let's go a bit further at the end. Five from Bristol and talk Walsall, who have extended their lead at the top of League Two over Port Vale to four points with a game in hand after a 1-0 win against Barrow. Joby unbeaten the league since March.

the 1st of October, guaranteed to be top at Christmas. They are firing the Sadlers with Matt Sadler in charge. Yeah, and someone I know well, actually I spent a bit of time with Matt at Watford, you know, always incredibly measured and calm. So I'm not surprised when you sort of listen to some of the players. I heard an interview by Nathan Lowe recently just talking about

one of the games that didn't go particularly well and maybe was expecting the gaffer to come in and give him a bit of a rocket but he was again you know kept everything in perspective and he's just got that way about him hasn't he Matt and he's not getting too carried away at the moment which obviously you know

is the right thing to do. But what he's doing so far this season is nothing short of incredible. We see teams from time to time have a great start to the season. And maybe it's because they're particularly strong in one area, whether it's goals for or goals. He's ticking every box at the moment. Defensively, incredibly sound. Again, I talk about Nathan, what a pick he's been. Go and get him on loan, 18 when he came in the door. I think he's 19 now. But the goals he's getting, tremendous performance.

and just seemed like an all-round, very, very good team, very organised.

a little bit of criticism levelled about them at the start of this season. Oh, you know, they get the ball in the box a lot. You know, they don't try and play too much. He's found a way. He's strengths to play towards. They're an attacking threat. They score goals for fun. And again, for me, just a real difficult team to come against, which is what's been proven week in, week out in the league. I say this with the greatest respect. League two is a swamp. If you can find a formula to get out of that swamp. Exactly.

Then find it. Do it. There's nothing wrong with them at all. And this whole criticism because they're not playing a certain brand of football, again, it goes back to that thing of style of football versus...

and just getting the job done. And they are just getting the job done. Jamil, Matt, but Nathan Lowe, as you mentioned, class signing. I look at the goalkeeper, Simkin as well. They seem to have built a really good link with Stoke City. Simkin's a real cracking signing. But Uncle Albert Adoma, 30, well, 700 years old. He's 36, isn't he? He's going to be 37. But I mean, what a cracking signing he's been. Load of experience.

comes in, shuts down a game, got a couple of goals as well. I mean, he's in the twilight of his career. He'll be enjoying it as well. They've just done really, really well in terms of organising things. And I know Ben Sadler, their CEO, by the way, isn't it ironic? Ben Sadler, CEO, Matt Sadler, manager of the Sadlers. But Ben Sadler, he's got an idea, he's got a vision, and they're running with it, Jobes.

Yeah, absolutely. And again, you go back to Albert, you go back to Jamil, Matt, you know, that experience in the dressing room, you know, it's a young, vibrant, fully energised squad, but actually along the way, you need those senior heads. And I think they've played a real key role, given it's a young manager as well. And he is obviously tapping into that experience just to help that group through at times of the season. But it just seems to be a real nice balance. I love to see it because again, someone like an Albert Adoma,

probably was overlooked by many clubs and that's the greatest respect probably why he's ended up at Walsall in the first place but that value sometimes shouldn't be just quantified in terms of a monetary fee what could we potentially sell him for you know what can he bring to the dressing room even when he's not playing you know Danny Johnson up front as well we talk about that

forward unit hearing Nathan Lowe talk about learning off him in training you know types of finishing drills that he does and you know the way that he takes his chances so there just seems to be a real group there in a real togetherness and there may be teams that have better individuals in the league but actually in terms of

getting success and getting promotion, it's the best teams that end up going up at the end of the season and they certainly that this year. I really want to talk about the manager. I think he's, what, Joby's hit the nail on the head where he said he's calm. I did a couple of deals with Matt in the summer. We brought Joe Foulkes in from their side, got him as a right back and I thought he'd let one go to tell you the truth. I thought he was making a mistake letting him go but,

The way Joe Fawkes has come in and talked about Matt and how meticulous he is with regards to the detail, etc., etc. But he's very calming with his delivery. But when he needs to snap, he snaps. When you've got both sides of that, players get a little bit nervous. They don't know which way to go because you don't know which side's going to come in or which kind of manager's going to walk through the door with delivering a half-time team talk or even a one-on-one. And I think he's got something. I think he's got a real calm about him.

He worked with Neil McDonald as well, and Matt knows him quite well. And I think everything about him is stinking of the fact that they're four points clear. He was getting thrown the question after the game on Saturday, four points clear, that guarantees you're going to be top of the league come Christmas Day.

And he said straight away, nobody wins the title on Christmas Day. Nobody wins the title on Christmas Day. So having won the game 1-0 and probably ground out a result against Barrow is then coming with that calming influence yet again. So the second half of the season is the most important part, absolutely a million percent. But again, bombing into teams on the M6. We're going up the road on Saturday.

Who was coming down the road? Barrow. I bumped into their side. They're having a pre-match meal in Walsall where I get picked up. And I spoke with their manager. You're lying. You saw them at Frank Lee Services M5 in the Burger King. No, I didn't.

I like it. No, no, honestly, with the hotel I was in, in Walsall, and I'm just talking to Stephen Clements, and they had a game plan, and they went to get a point, to be fair, and they almost got one. But that experience of Adoma and Jamil Matt, who you've mentioned, I think that carries a lot of weight. Because when you've got good seniors, the kids take care of themselves. When you've got bad seniors, the kids can take care of themselves.

content to lose their way a wee bit. But them good seniors, you've mentioned the two players, I don't need to go any further. When you've got good seniors, the kids will tour the lane. One thing with Walsall, when you watch them play, you know you're in a game. And I think that's been something that was levelled against Matt Taylor at Bristol Rovers. Sometimes maybe no clear identity that

And, you know, the width they play with, with wing-backs, they've got two up front, which I love. We just don't see enough in the game today. So when you're up against them, however they need to win a game, again, we sweat how solid they are at the back, the three centre-halves and the goalkeeper's been fantastic. Whatever way they need to win a game, the last two in the league, 1-0 wins. You know, they can go and score goals. They can outscore you as well. And they just have a little bit of everything. I just think sometimes with coaching...

it's so one dimensional these days and actually what that becomes is predictable to play against and sometimes even the players are sort of like right we're doing the same things and it's not working whereas with Matt he has got a real defined way of playing but there's

there's some versatility in that and they stretch teams and, you know, they can go up to Jamil Matt and have that physicality or they can, you know, drop it into Nathan Lowe who likes to go and pick up those little pockets and I just think there's a really nice blend. I think there's something to be said for that and again, he's just doing a great job.

forget the tactical stuff. I want to know more about service station encounters and restaurant encounters. What happens on a Saturday morning? You see other teams, you go and see a gaffer, have a little chat, maybe over a, I mean, what would you get from a service station, Jovi? Cornish pasty? Don't.

don't get a meal, whatever you're doing. That's the golden rule. You know what? If I don't see anyone with a meal, it's a fine. The sausage rolls that you get these days are priceless, aren't they? Absolutely priceless. No, I'm a big believer in diversity and I really believe that. On Saturday, we thought...

long and hard about, you know, we're travelling up to near to Bolton, Radcliffe it was, and the players had their due afterwards, so all this organisation about cars being this, I had to get everybody focused, so I said, forget about a pre-match meal, we'll eat on the coach as we're going up.

and the players were like, "Oh, we're not too sure about that." And straight away there was a little bit of alarm, you know, sort of when you see nervousness, Jobe, you know, when you're in the changing room, you see nervousness. And before the game, I had to just sit them down in the changing room and just bring them back to ground level. You know, everybody was off and running and what they were doing after the game and then bringing them back to, shall we say, level. They performed like men possessed. It was brilliant. But sausage roll for me all day long.

Phil, last one on Walsall and Matt Sadler. Being an experienced member of the manager's brigade, as you are, and I say that with the greatest of respect, if you had a top tip for him, because he's been pit for other jobs and there's a lot of talk around him, what would your top tip be?

Well, first and foremost, he said the word respect and that's one thing that Matt Sadler's got. He's got respect for the opposition. He's got respect for the hierarchy. He's got respect for all the managers. But I think serve your team. That's the most important part. You think you can jump early, jump early by all means. And a year later, you're on the bottom of the pail. You're at the bottom of the pail. For me...

This is a proper apprenticeship. This is Walsall. There's an affinity to what he's doing with who he is and how his identity is coming through, his team's identity is coming through. I'm saying serve his team. Get a promotion under your belt from the second to the first. Stay with the team for another year.

identify yourself as the type of manager that can actually get promoted from the second to the first and go again. You know, there's all sorts of things that you've got to do, but his identity, what we talked about, is the most important. Matt Sadler, for me, he knows what he is and it comes out loud and clear. I think he's just got to serve his time.

Absolutely. Phil, thank you for that. Let's turn our attention to Fantasy EFL. Joby, tell us about your week. Very mixed, I'd say. Decent, decent return, but it's one of those that should have been a lot better. I was thinking Cooper in goal for Sheffield or do I go for Tyrese Campbell? I went with the goals, nowhere near the first team. So I'm absolutely gutted with that. I missed that on a clean sheet. I thought I was going to be clever. I did a bit of a wreck some goalkeeper and defender. Didn't pay off at all. But other than that,

decent return. Harmer was good. Stansfield, who ended up being captain, decent points haul. So yeah, okay. Could have been better, but steady away. How many points did you pick up this week? Good question. 52. Is it only 52? 52.

George in the 60s. Relegated. I changed my team. I actually got 65 points this week. Oh, there you go. That's what happens when you turn up and you actually give it a little bit of... Dennis Serkin. Gus Harmer picking me up 12. Alfie made 12. Matty Stephens again. Unbelievable. 11 goals for him this season. Eight points for me in the old fantasy hour. Code for League. 72 EFL Pod. 7-2 EFL Pod.

That's almost it for this week, though. But before we go, it's time for this.

What have you got for us on 72 Plus this week, Joby?

Well, there was one strike that really stood out. And when you're 1-0 down and the manager gives you a little nudge and says, go on, mate, go and get me a goal, please. I don't even think Scott Parker was expecting this from Zian Fleming. We've seen him do it a lot of times for Millwall, but just an absolutely beautiful strike, fully 30 yards out. There's an angle from behind, which is just absolutely magnificent. If you haven't seen it yet, get online and give it a search. So Zian Fleming, you are my 72 plus. Fleming takes it on.

Oh! Sian Fleming with a wonder strike into the top corner. A goal of the season contender and Burnley a level. Unbelievable strike from range. Unstoppable from the substitute.

Good to see him doing some bits there, Zian Flemming. I'll tell you what, one of the most enjoyable sights I used to see travelling to South London, you'd see coaches and coaches of fans from the Netherlands just come and see Zian Flemming. They go and raid the club shop. It's hilarious. You'd see just Flemming shirts everywhere, but they travel just to see him. Joby, let's have you 72 Minus, please.

Well, we've gone from the sublime to the ridiculous this week. And Liam Walsh, what are you thinking? It's actually his second appearance on 72 Minus. Comes on as a substitute in the 66th minute. 2-0 down. You're coming on, trying to help your team get back in the game. And then he just flies into an absolutely ridiculous

tackle, gets a straight red card. Captain Carlton Morris, very unhappy, literally shoving him off the pitch, telling him to get yourself down the tunnel, really let the team down. He now serves a four-match ban, misses all the games over Christmas. Maybe a few questions and see if he's had some input. I'm not sure, Azza. Very, very tactical from Liam Walsh. Let's hear it. The referee has sent him. He sent off Joe Walsh. Well,

Walsh has just put his thumb up to Lewis Travis and he might well be saying it's deserved. Well, Colton Morris is pushing him off the pitch here. No, no, he's furious, isn't he? Yeah. I think he probably feels that the Rovers players have got him sent off. Yeah, I think they have, to be fair.

there you go, Liam Walsh sent off for Luton. Phil, you must have had a player or two back in the day totting up the cards, looking at it, thinking, hey, I could be doing myself a, well, could be doing myself a bit of favour if I get myself booked or sent off. Well, coming up to Christmas, you mean? Wow, it's unbelievable, isn't it? Even the thought process is just beyond recognition. One,

One thing's guaranteed, you're going to be playing football at Christmas time. You don't want to be sitting on your back saying, doing nothing, because I'll tell you what, managers look at that and they frown upon it. When they see somebody purposefully do anything like that, it can't be had. It can't be had. Absolutely not. Philip, thank you for joining us. Thank you, Joby, as well. That is it for this episode of the Football Daily. On the next one, Steve Crossman will have League Cup reaction. That's for us here on 72 Plus. We'll be back next week with our Neil Warnock Christmas special. We will catch you then.

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