836: How to Become Happier, with Dr. Nat Ware
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This is above number eight hundred and thirty six with doctor net ware founder and C, E, O of.

Well, come back to the superstitious zed podcast. I am your host, john chrome. Today we've got the economist doctor. Netware are on the show that is a renowned speaker.

He has one tedx talk alone that has over two million views on youtube and actually be using the content from that tedx k talk as the basis of today's episode. That is also a social impact entrepreneur behind one hundred and eighty degrees consulting, which is the world's largest consultancy from hong profits. He's also uh the entrepreneurs hind 4a start up that facilitate cost free rescuing of workforces。

He holds a doctorate in economics as well as an N B, A from oxford university. Today's epo de should be fascinating to anyone in IT not details why, despite life on this planet being Better than ever before, humans are so unhappy. And he provides concrete guidance on what you can do to become happier.

I recorded this that was alive in front of an audience at an event in new york for a switzerland based group call, the same gallon symposium that i'm involved with. If you hear references to the symposium or an S A competition during our conversation, that's why on that note, if you are a graduate student anywhere in the world who would like to win an all expenses paid ticket the next year, the same gallon imposition and switzerland, check out their global S A competition. They have a hundred, all expenses pay places for the top hundred essays that are submitted.

I've got a link to make that submission in the show notes. Alright, let's jump to do our conversation. Delighted to have you the speaker here. Not a i've actually known you for a long time.

and we lived .

in a jay cent there. We lived in a place at this at a college called modern college, where there is a graduate student residence area that was quite ideal. So we're here to talk about the topic of that most popular telex talk. When I see this talk, even just the title of the of the talk is so gripping to me, but I felt like I had to be the topic that we d start off with today.

So in your wildly popular the tech talk on youtube, with over two point two million views at the time of us uh sitting here tonight, you detail why despite the world in terms of quantitative metrics being Better than ever, in terms of lifespans, in terms of quality of education um in terms of uh violence, both domestically as well, in terms of uh h geographic disputes. There has never been a Better time in history to be alive yet despite this, so many people are unhappy so uh you know as a as a jumping off point into talking about this in your talk, you talk about three types of expectation gap that drive this. I mean， maybe putting on about that if you want to have to generally .

inro's ce a gap and festive um given a couple of telex talk, someone mostly on my main area which is social entrepreneurship, development economics, impact investing, all that IT turns out people don't google that as much onie as interested in that and seems like more people search for happiness. How to be happy? One am unhappy.

So I don't think it's because it's a Better K. I think it's just people more interested in that in that appeals to a broadway diena really the basis of that talk with, you know, I grew up in australia, my parents to school teachers, uh, I one to five kids, we didn't have much money growing up. Uh, we didn't have enough money to like go skin or go on a flight. So I I didn't go to flight. I was I think thirteen or fourteen and and didn't leave australia until I was sixteen.

Uh and that was a trip with uh big charity in australia called world vision and that was to more than big um and sort of in the build up to that trip I was like we're going to rural more than big and you've seen all these images are like people starving among irish and I was expecting to be like shocked by the desperation by their poverty and and that was sort of what I was anticipating in these rural villages. And when I got there, like, yes, there was desperation. Yes, they didn't have much.

Yes, they were struggling. But what was the most surprising thing is there actually like happier in many ways. Uh, then a lot of the people that I knew in australia, and I had a lot of friends in australia would complain about everything. Uh and then in these areas even the smaller lest thing like made the day they were happy. They they seem to enjoy life and love family and love community.

Uh and so got me thinking of, you know how the way that we think about happiness differs from the way that we just think about income and well um in the main point that i'm making, the talk is not something that ground breaking is not you know something no and the thought of before, I think it's pretty intuitive uh and it's basically just a at a fundamental level, the idea that the way that we uh uniform happiness or what determines whether or not what happy is very much based on our expectations uh and how expectations compares to reality and at the simplest level lets you know if reality is here and our expectations that here well now when reality doesn't live up to our expectations for I have uh and the reverse is true that when expectations are here in reality exceeds, we tend to be pretty happy and now that sounds like super simple, super basic ideas. Uh, but I think then we break IT down into the three different ways in which we form expectations. And one of the ways that we form expectations is based on all those around.

So if your living in new york and all your friends, uh you know working for investment banks, so big law firms on in two fifty, three hundred, four hundred thousand a year and you're trying to scrape by as a poor student N Y U A uh on you know five and a fifty and twenty thousand, you probably feel pretty poor and you can't afford what your friends can afford. I eta where's if you're on twenty thousand dollars or a big or in manilla like us. So wherever you probably feel very wealthy relative to those around you.

Um likewise, if you get an email or a phone call from your boss t work saying, hey, we're giving you ten thousand a pay rise, initial reaction is probably like also some amazing. If you go going to work and find out everyone else has got twenty thousand or a pay rise, you're probably pretty good. So uh and so whether or not we're happy is largely based on how we compare our circumstances to those we spend more time with um so so that almost like an interpersonal expectation gap.

Um the second expectation gap all the way the reform expectations is based on our past. If we're very much used to a sudden standard of living, um you know that that impact our expectations about one in life. Um you know, as I said, I didn't have much growing up.

My main entertainment was throwing a tender school with my brother and playing sport with my brother and dad. Uh we family of seven, we had a small thirty four seven mated T V um do I think I was deprived? Now I thought that was just like the the norm.

That is obviously a lot of the world, but I never allowed like game consoles or travel like eeta um but you know in retrospect CT, I think that was kind of good for my happiness because now I get to travel in you know have a lot of experiences that I never had as a kid. And I so to compare these experiences I have now to what I didn't have of what we couldn't afford growing up, like I have had new closes a kid. My parents had a network of other mothers and past closed between the my mom, you know, stitch her clothes and and made a lot of my closed set.

And so I think a lot of the way that we form expectations is based on our past and the some economic research that shows that. I know if you take two people who have the same average lifetime income, one whose income is increasing without their life, the one whose income is decrease, the wonder er's income is increasing is almost always happier, uh, even if the average is the same um and so you know I think that you know reality has some implications by how we, for example, race, race kids. Second, i'm all for giving kids every opportunity of the sun and education and opportunities, huge gem, important economic mobility, hugely important.

Uh but IT is something that we should consider um you know that the trajectory threw out one's life uh and certainly you know have been fortunate to also make people on the other end expect, like I have one not sure I clia mental, but is like an acquaintance of friend ah, who is that a billionaire once he was a bit drunk of chatting with him and he is like that, you know how I have, uh you know my private jet. Um you know sometimes I don't know, they tell people this, but sometimes when i'm travelling I get a bit embarrassed by the size of my jets. I rent a big one and pretend its mine.

Just say that you look more impressive to the other billion sort of made me realized that you know, even if you're a billion, you you can still feel like your poor and not living up to the standard of the world or those around you and so on. So you know that that was a bit instatement 啊。 And I think the third way that we uh form expectations, which is may be the most relevant today's day in ages, this based on our imagination, which I think is largely influenced by um you know a few things.

One is advertising and to the social media and know such a nice just for the ammi age and then we can get back to the questions but we with advertising, right your told the best thing about something like if you're being sold, you know an apple watch, you you're told like this is the greatest watch. It's the best that's ever being produced a but like you sold the good stuff, you not told really the negative stuff that you you have to charge every day. Other, stop starting the time.

I like your you know cheaper, went like last a year above a but and so the way that advertising works is to raise your expections even with the election of the moment, right you know every politician will promise you everything i'm going to do X, Y, Z, ed blob a bar to raise your expectations but pretty much that never lives up to that right? Um regardless of who who is empower and and when he comes to social media, I mean say you go on a holiday, right uh and you take, well let's just say hundred but there are probably take a thousand more but let's say one hundred. So one hundred five dos on your camera, uh, and you go through the two hundred and then you pick out what what are the ones that you pass, right?

You you pick out the best five five hundred, uh, and then you probably adjustment built to the colors or or tweet in a second way. Uh and so reality is like at the fifty percent um so so that's what you actually experience if you good at the place. So the reality is at the fifty percent time, what you see on social media is not just the top five percent, which is already above the fifty percent, all so expectations about the reality, but because we treated in a russia and filter above the becomes Better than the top percent.

And so we have about expectations being formed by what we see, which is Better than the it's even outside the range um I X found by that the reality is at the fifty percent and and that all contribute to this idea that when we experience stuff in reality, we we sometimes to get that feeling of like uh no because as bad is just like not as amazing as we have to expect IT and longed for uh and even for my own experience, a lot of the best place as i've been to where I had zero expectation so like I remember a long time ago I went to this. I was invited to this random conference in a random town in slovenia, a court blood. I didn't even look up what the town was.

I was super busy. I just going to go on the and went there. And I don't know if anyone's been to blood, but it's like one of the most beautiful townhouse in the world.

It's like a lake round of a snow get mountains with the church rising out set of the late a thousand year old castle and a clip on the side, stunning. And I was expecting some industrial town. I was like, that's still my favorite town in the world ah and might actually be my favorite turn in the world.

And I think part of IT is I was just blown away because my expectations were here. Reality was here. And whether you know you go to see the I town or the mono or you know empire state building and stop of that dad is just like hard to live up to your expectations. Um so as I said, nothing ground breaking, but I think you at least that's great. I also my very .

next question for you is about the impact of social media and digitization, which I think you've not answered. It's been about a decade, sce that talk him out, I think and in that time at least you haven't gone bald um .

I take the right I don't know to stop with.

An f um uh so yeah so I think you've answered my question kind of about social media. You covered that well there. H there was something specifically to talk. You talk about call the hydronic tread mill. You want to talk .

about that and its impact? Yeah onic try is just the idea that we. It's a bit of a actual idea that often we ever once we have you, right? But sometimes the more that we think about happiness and strive for, the order is to achieve.

And and so often happiness occurs when you almost not seeking and not striving for, but the more that we run at the goal of happiness and like i'm trying to be happy yourself to be happier and almost moves further away and you never get there, it's like you're running on a trend and not getting closer to that goal. Al, happy dance. And and so it's one of those things where maybe this is a bad analogy, but then I just put up then or another hard work.

You know if you're looking at the question not really meant to look straight, that you meant to look to the side and then you say if you look straight that if you don't see, I think it's a bit like that with happens. You don't want to run strait of the goal of happiness and be like my ten point plan to be happy as x you kind of want to do related things, uh, that that hopefully push you value in that direction. But but not happiness is not the goal in of itself.

I think when happiness is the goal, like you really see someone, my goal is you is to be happy. I had a ten point planned by how to be happy. And guess what? I am happy.

No, I, I, I wanted to, you spend more time with my family and friends. I wanted to prioritize experiences over meaningful things. I wanted to overcome my risk in different ways and have fewer regrets. And it's those things that are broadly pushing you in that direction ah that actually generate happiness as opposed like going to the goal itself. Uh so that sort of the idea running on the don t milk, you don't directly decide.

so will take the red exercise bad treat meals are bad. But but so uh you know of what he don't treat meal ah this makes something you know that that idea of directly following IT I like the looking you know looking at the sun uh analogy with eclipse um do you have general advice, practical advice for how we can be happy and you just gave one there, which is you know pursuing happiness itself, public idea. And then on the side of that, you mention something that maybe those are the kinds of things, spending time with family and friends, uh, pursuing experiences. I don't know there's other items that economics has shown us.

Yeah I in the game not expecting in this big ground braking, but you know they do all those surveys of people at the end of the life and ask some, you know what you regret the most in we all know this, but you know what's repeating anyway, people don't say, uh um I really regret i'm not going to be the wealth est person in the same meter um what they regret is, you know I I wish I spend more time with family and friends that's that's one thing that constantly comes up the other thing that comes up is regret um and people should have often routinely say I acted in a way that was not my most authentic self because of either I was scared or because of the other people's expectations of violence so I felt pressured to do this career even though I didn't really want you or I actually in that way just because like my parents wanted me to be that way rather than because that was so I really was um and so I think a lot of IT is like taking risk, not having regrets, being in most often itself, generally prioritising sort of memories and experiences of materials, tic things uh and prioritising time with with people who love you and you love them. Um you know and that all sounds pretty basic and obvious, but it's great, always good for my assets of them.

nice. There was actually uh I might have even been around the time that we were both all and together there was a um there was a two hour seminar in the mobile n theater around a the economics of happiness and at that time at least something that kept coming up is a regardless of your demographic, something that makes everyone happier is gardening.

Mabe ah IT is a lot of obvious things like you know seeing more sunrises and sunset make people happy, right that doesn't cost anything really um being grateful and practice in gratitude and reminding yourself without lucky you have expressed more frequently like that doesn't cost us anything that IT helps to contribute to happiness.

Site and just in general sort like just on that point and often when we and i'm guilty of this world, but you know if you're getting on a flight and the flight play, you get kind of annoyed and frustrated. It's still like a big metal object is in the sky, define gravity, getting you from one side of one place to another that like in a speed that the most of human history would have been on imaginable. And and we do need to remind ourselves that regardless of way we are social economically today, we are all way Better than the top points, zero, one percent for the vast orty of the top zero.

Like the kings of the past, the king's in queens and royalty of the past did not have running water, did not have pushing toilets, did not have like the drinks and wine and and so I could not go on a device in their pocket and within thirty minutes, pretty much have every cuisine in the world right in front of them. Um and so you know where we're already Better than the top zero points, zero one percent for most of human history and I think just like keeping that front and center of mind. Um you know as we go about our day in our life, I think I think is good happiness about nice.

Thank you. Those were some great practical tips. Uh, switching gears a bit. Uh, I eluded to in the inroads your consultation. Cy, it's called one hundred and eighty degrees. You founded IT while you were an underground in australia, uh, nearly two decades ago now. And IT has become over that time the world's largest voluntary consultation.

Cy IT Operates in four to two countries, has one hundred and seventy five branches, and nearly a hundred thousand people have volunteered through that network, through the one hundred native degrees consultancy that you founded. So to tide into the general theme of this, do you think that volunteering for those hundred thousand people, do you think that that makes them happier? Do you think that this is something, you know? Why do people, why would somebody choose? why? Why would a hundred thousand people choose to be part of a voluntary.

I mean, I I think I think yeah this experience and one is that I do think in general, like good volunteering or france for your authorising, there's a fine line between selfishness and actress, right?

Like when I help out other people like both of my organization, one of the grades and forty day um you know have a social impact aspect to um do I get a good feeling at a helping people who get and and so the line between altruism and selfishness is pretty blood. Um I am kind of join up because I feel good about and i'm kine of doing because helps out the people and and so like altruism is there. But I think because people do feel good about that is also a bit self as well.

Like if you want to be happy, if you, anna, feel good about your self helping other people feel good is is a good strategy to do that. And I mean, in terms of one agd degrees in the growth, I partly that um to be honest, I think a lot of and this is going a bit of topic. But uh, I think a lot of entrepreneurship is writing the right trains are, to be honest, like I started that back in two thousand and seven in my first cure of undergrad sydney university when like social entrepreneurship and consulting and impact investing.

But they were there. But IT was new IT. IT wasn't like, as mainstreaming is, IT is now, and we very much worry that trend.

And the idea then was like, I saw so many different student pops in societies. They were getting people to raise money, to donate money. And IT didn't seem to match with the strength of universities, too.

And the same time I realized that doing good is as much in elector endeavor as that is an emotional endeavor. And so I wanted a way that people could donate with their minds rather than just with their mind. And while starting new, it's great.

It's pretty hard to do that successfully along outside put time study. So the idea was like instead of let's get top university students study new ventures, let's get get them improving existing organizations and do so in a way that's mutually that efficient. Now university students, what do they want to put on their cv?

One, i've made a difference, so I have work experience and real work experience, not vote, copying that. You know, I was in a leadership role. I took initial bh and and three, they want community.

And one, I D degrees is kind of a unique university club in society, because IT hit s not as three things with one side hit. So three birds with one stone, you can do one eighty degrees and tick off, made a contribution. Tick off.

Uh, I ve said to have work experience that that supplied my university studies. Uh I and you have that community as well. Um so we never spent a dollar in marketing.

I I set up the first branch of sydney university. Then I admit people actually in new york in two thousand and eight from mexico, sweden, who wanted to set up a second and third branches. And I help and do that, and we set up a global organization, also hundred percent volunteer a base to oversee those three initial branches.

And the trade grew to seven, grew to fifteen group of thirty. And then, as uh john said, one hundred almost up to one eight things, one hundred and seventy seven now so we should hit one eighty in a week or two. Um yeah it's been very organic, great.

And I think it's a lot writing right trends um and maybe that may be a bit too scared to go. But the point is like altruism is definitely a part of IT. And but I think alterius m is not purely altruism and I think we also benefit from IT. And I don't you that is a bad I think that actually makes a more sustainable um and more reliable more more more reliable prediction of human behavior which is good.

And I in built a biological mechanism that I think that keeps society together. I have one last question for you before opening up to the audience here. I mentioned in the insure that you'd won the wings of excEllence, were twice for the best S A, at the same and oppose him.

One of those S A was on your 4 model。 You mention the company name in the response to my proceeding question. So the third company is based on this fourteen model is a new way of finding education. Tell us about that.

Um so I think this was two thousand and seventeen in my S A at the time. I called this new approach tips or trade income by security uh uh and then I sort of basically decided that I wanted to make that happen and try to implement IT around the world. Uh, and then I rebranded IT to four days standing for financing your return to employment.

But same approach, same mechanism. Uh, the one liner is is a way of finance, education and healthcare at no cost individuals, no cost to governments and without making plans to be a sort of the way having as much impact to scholarships, but with far more scalability. Uh, and it's also a new type of public private part ship.

Uh, the way that works in a not show and I could speak about this for hours and hours and is that we basically use private capital from a wide range of investors, family officers impacting investors uh well managers. We use private capital to fund high quality education uh such as retraining uh particularly for people in unemployment in longer m unemployment um and so we use that private capital of fun, high quality training support. We don't do the training ourselves.

We have a network of over one hundred of the best training providers around the world that do the training. People who receive that training in sport are nothing at all, nothing now, nothing in the future, no chance of explosion, no chance of prety by. But the idea is that training leads to greater employment, greater incomes and greater government income tax revenue.

And we have agreements with governments around the world, whether they pass back to the investors of the senate of the increase in the income tax revenue they receive that's attributable to the great train individuals to say there's ten thousand women in cost center who are unemployed. Uh, we can go to the government and say you're not getting any revenue from these ten thousand women. Let us let us train them up, support them, help them get good jobs, help them help us fill skills gaps.

If IT doesn't work, you pay nothing. If IT doesn't work, sort of a revenue share agreement just pass back of the centage of what you otherwise would not appear. Uh, and so I do think that's a win win as much impact to scholarships for the individuals they able to get back on their feet on new skills, hopefully achieve uh, the potential. And for investors, I feel is a very, very good model impact investing uh that almost perfectly aligned social impact on financial return because the way investors make more money is by doing more good, by making sure the education actually works and actually helps people and actually leads to good outcomes.

So it's almost like a lot economy, you know, lets of those was struggling and disadvantage and benefits flow up through the system, a way of proving disadvised shed individuals。 But with the credit words of governments uh and then a pitch to governments is I need to, worse in the budget, never pay for something that doesn't work, get the revenue first, like good from the cash close standpoint, revenue is always greater. The cost always make economic sense ah and you get to close scholes gas, reduce an employing and increase productivity.

Give comes um and it's almost in visiting and a new role for government, not is public provisional privatization but is almost a third all of conduits or facilitators ors of tax transfers uh because what is the government Better at in the private sector? Uh you know think one thing is, is knowing incomes of collecting taxes. Uh and so can we use that institutional strength governments but use that to unlike private sector innovation and investment in a way that incentives are aligned and and then finally, for the service providers, the education providers that help get provided, including non on profits and social enterprises, this is kind of a new business model for them through one eight degrees.

I work with you know hundreds, thousands of different non profits around the world in a lot of the mural land on adept grants and donations and strugling to scale up. Uh and so this is a way that we can take great no profits that might be rely on donations. We say we will find you to inside of helping just twenty five refugee women to learn how now scale up to a ten ex to at one hundred six.

Uh, and we will find you, you focus on what you do best. Uh and we can scale up that impact as well. Um so yeah, I became convinced that should exist in the world.

Uh, figured that I didn't want the S A just sitting on the in the P D F on on the website or uh one night uh and so set up the organza um put forty to make that happen around the world. Uh we have now done h implemented in five countries. One be a cost rate of port rego. Uh also on pilots in australia are and in the U S um we are endorsed by the world I cannot make for um and you know what you do will be over the scale. Is that pretty uh and so yeah that that was giving me busy.

So tremendous. Yeah, amazing. All the you ve accomplished. Sure, even bigger things are the common.

So these things will scale and very cool that in some ways the genesis of four day was, you know things like, uh, the same alon competition was shows. The value that this imposition has is so many ways that that provides value. And I think that just takes another way.

All these rial effects affecting huge numbers of people. excEllent. Thank you. Now that was awesome. Thanks to that for that thread engaging epo de in IT.

He covered how interpersonal, historic and imagination based expectation gaps leaders to be unhappy and how we can make ourselves happier by, of course, raining in our expectations, but also buy things like spending time with family and friends, acting authentically, appreciating experiences over material wealth, gardening and watching sunsets. Um to be sure not to miss any other upcoming episodes. H subscribe this podcast, of course, if you have not already, but most importantly, I hope you'll keep on listing until next time. Keep on a rocket and out there and i'm looking forward, enjoy another round of the super dats podcast with you very soon.