What’s next for Syria
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Hey, Louisa, how are you doing? Hey, I'm good.

So, Louisa Lovelock, as a foreign correspondent for The Post, you are currently trying to get into Syria, where the government of President Bashar al-Assad was just overthrown. You're in southeast Turkey right now, waiting on the Syrian border to enter. And as I understand it, while you've been waiting, you've been talking to people. And you had a conversation in particular with a man who's trying to find his brother. Can you tell me a little bit about him?

Cihad Delane is a Syrian man living in southern Turkey, and he's one of many who fled the country during the war. And he's been waiting a year and a half to hear his younger brother Majid's voice. Majid was arrested from their home in Damascus alongside their elderly parents. A combined patrol, a combined strike force attacked our apartment, and they took my brother along with my dad and mom.

— Oh, wow. — Yeah, the three of them. — It was the summer of 2023. The parents were eventually released, but not Majid. And why they were arrested remains a mystery. Drag nets, mass arrests were typical during Assad's regime. — Nobody even was able to, like, really let us know what he actually did. — And although the parents have had some contact, they haven't been able to communicate on the phone about his case. They haven't been able to hear the details.

What was that moment when they realized that their brother, that their family member was going to be freed? Well, it sounds like they were starting to understand that prisons across the country were being opened. But because of the pandemic,

Because it was very unclear where any of the videos were coming from. Videos were circulating time and time again. They were saying that they were Adra prison. This is the prison that he was being held in. And so they kept having these false alarms. And then finally, that morning, 9.22 a.m., there was a family group call. And it was Majid saying that he was about to come home. That's because over the weekend, President Assad fled the country.

Rebel groups seized the capital, Damascus, with very little opposition. And those rebel groups have opened Syria's notorious prison network. Like Louisa mentioned, there have been videos, footage showing inmates staggering out into freedom, visibly exhausted, stunned, some of them barefoot. And there are so many families, like the one Louisa talked to, who are hoping that this will be the moment that they'll be reunited with their loved ones.

The prison system was used as a weapon. It was used to quash any dissent, not just of activists, of anyone involved in anything that could be perceived as dissent, but of their family members, of their friends. And so as the regime has fled and the soldiers have melted away, the prisons are being opened and so many people are waiting to find out if the people they've missed for all of these years are coming home.

Assad and his father before him ruled Syria with an iron fist for more than five decades. Now that he's gone, fled to Moscow for asylum, there have been celebrations in the streets of Damascus. In one video, a man is standing in the street. He said, quote, this is the happiest day of my life. We were reborn. This is the happiest day of my life. We were born again.

From the newsroom of The Washington Post, this is Post Reports. I'm Martine Powers. It's Monday, December 9th. Today, after more than a decade of civil war in Syria, Assad is out. This happened in less than two weeks. Just a few days ago, we talked on the podcast about anti-government rebels advancing and the support that Assad was receiving from Iran and Russia. That support is falling apart.

Now, with rebel groups in control of the capital, there is a big question of what's next for Syria. Both hopes for the future and also concerns about what a power vacuum will mean. So, Louisa, before we hear more about what's actually going on in Syria right now, I want to understand where you are. We said you're on the Syrian border in Turkey. What is it like there right now?

It's been an extraordinary 48 hours. This is a place that, although of course it is in Turkey, it's full of Syrians who had fled Syria during the civil war, sometimes seemingly permanently, sometimes always planning to go back. And the reaction that we've seen in the streets was one of absolute jubilation. This is not something that people...

imagined was possible. Even the activists who always used to say, "One day, one day." I don't know if in their heart of hearts they knew that this would happen. And so we've seen people celebrating in the streets. We've seen people driving down the streets crying, laughing, singing, tooting their horns. Some of them packing their bags, ready to go and see their home cities for the first time in years.

And so it's really been a remarkable scene. And as you said, there is a lot of trepidation. There is a lot of worry for what the future might hold. But this has also just been an astonishing moment in time where all of these people who spent all of this time here have finally taken the moment to breathe. I also want to point out here that

This is a pretty significant moment for you as well. As a reporter who has covered Syria in the past, you've been to the country many times. But recently, it's been very difficult to get into government-held Syria. So what does it mean now that it seems like you'll be able to enter the country freely? Yeah.

I've been covering Syria since 2013. And the idea that finally, again, we can cross and we hope travel freely is indescribable. You know, we've spent so many years calling people in government-held parts of Syria, trying to shed light on conditions, trying to do our best reporting. But of course, people often are very scared to communicate with the outside world. It has been very difficult at some of the worst times.

to get a real sense of what life is like. And as a reporter, that's our jobs, you know? And to know that we finally, we hope, we'll be able to walk the streets that we're describing is monumental.

So as you pointed out, this has all unfolded very quickly. Just in the last couple of weeks, you know, we had these rebel forces taking control of cities in Syria, moving closer to Damascus. And then finally this moment where President Bashar al-Assad was overthrown. He fled the country. These celebrations started. What was your reaction to this moment, finally realizing, wow, Assad is out. He's gone. Yeah.

I mean, if you said those words to me two weeks ago, I wouldn't have believed you. It wasn't just not on the bingo card for this year. It was not...

an idea that really made sense. What's happened these past few days has turned on its head so much of the received wisdom about how this dictatorship would survive. And like you say, the speed has just been astonishing. First of all, the rebels took the northern city of Aleppo, which in and of itself would have been a monumental event. And then all of a sudden, regime forces were melting away. And

The troops just kept moving. First they were in Hama, then they were in Homs. All the talk was, would they go to Damascus? It didn't seem real. But within a day, that's where they were. And the following day, Assad was gone. Mm-hmm.

I think it's important to understand a little bit more here about who Assad is and what his rule represented. Obviously, you referred to him as a dictator, and he is someone who has been accused of human rights abuses many times over the past decades. But describe a little bit more about his rule and what the Assad regime meant.

Well, the crucial thing to know here is this is a regime that has been in power since 1970. First, it was Assad's father. Then he took power in the year 2000.

And it was an incredibly cruel and repressive rule. Syrians outside of the country have been telling us this week that for the first time they are texting their loved ones using full sentences because they're no longer scared about the repercussions of being seen to say the wrong thing, even from the outside. It was always a pretty authoritarian regime. There had been severe crackdowns multiple times in the past.

But when mass protests started in 2011 against the government, that is when we saw the really brutal crackdown. It started with the demonstrations, but it spiraled after that. The punishments were humiliating. They were often sadistic.

And more than 100,000 people are still missing since their arrests, mostly by the government. So it's a country of people who have also lived with these prisons being bywords for fear and questions about their loved ones being things that they couldn't even ask openly, even when they'd been missing for years.

So in the face of all that brutality, you know, it's not surprising that there has been opposition to Assad's regime for decades. But it seems like only now has that opposition really gotten this kind of traction. So tell me more about the people on the other side of this, these anti-government rebels that have been able to bring down Assad. Yeah.

The anti-government rebels started very much as a homegrown movement. People were in their areas picking up weapons and fighting a regime that was turning its ammunition on them. But over time...

a lot of other influences came in. People got organized, foreign money came in. And in the North, you had a group called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham or HTS. And this group had established itself really as the dominant force across the patchwork of these other rebel groups. They had often fought for those victories. They have imprisoned their critics. They have imprisoned other members of other rebel groups. And so this is the group that led the offensive.

It is an Islamist group. It was once affiliated with al-Qaeda, although it's distanced itself from them in recent years. And it's really been trying to cast itself as a more moderate force, as a governing force that provides services to people. And so why have they been so successful now? Like, what is it about this group, this entity that has finally been able to do in the last two weeks what so many others have tried to do for decades?

Well, a part of this is the time that they've had to organize with a lot of rebel groups under their umbrella. They've had military academies. They've really focused on their strategy. This is what people who talk to them say. But there also seems to have been an element of luck, of chance and of timing in here. And we're still reporting this out. But one important reason for this remarkable offensive of the last few weeks is

is that the rebels saw an opening. Assad's military allies, Russia and Iran, they were either distracted or they were reprioritizing as a result of their own conflicts elsewhere. And these were conflicts that weren't raging earlier in the war. So...

The gamble bore out. When the rebels moved on Aleppo, government forces melted away and the fragility, really the mirage of the regime's power was revealed. And what's your understanding of what that moment looked like? These rebels were able to enter Damascus. And what happened then? When did it become clear that Assad was going to need to flee? And how did that play out? It was overnight Saturday, early Sunday local time.

The advances just kept going. On social media, we were seeing reports that they were in this suburb and then they were in this suburb. And within hours, they were in central Damascus, outside the presidential palace. And from that point, it was pretty clear that Assad had gone. And just like that, it was over. Wow.

So what have we seen from HTS and from this rebel coalition in the hours since they've claimed victory? They're certainly trying to strike a note of unity. But given their ideological background, there are an awful lot of Syrians who are very worried about what a future with HTS might look like.

HTS's leader, his name is Abu Mohamed Al-Jilani, gave a victory speech in one of Damascus' most historic mosques, the Umayyad Mosque this week. And he said, this victory, my brothers, is a new chapter in the history for the entire Islamic nation. This victory is a turning point for the region.

He really tried to appeal to everyone. It was a very carefully calibrated speech. He really seemed to be trying to give Syrians of all backgrounds what they wanted to hear. He was saying this was a country that's been destroyed by outside forces and they did not have the same sway anymore. He was blaming them for sectarianism, for corruption, which I should add were also very much the preserve of Assad's rule himself and also things that some of these rebel groups have themselves been accused of. But

But the question now really is how they're going to move forward from this. It's really unclear. The leader who has gone by his nom de guerre for a very long time, Jalani, he's one of these figures who people tend to project their pre-existing beliefs onto.

What do you mean by that? Well, he's certainly politically savvy. He's a very, very good political operator. But is he a radical? Is he an extremist? Is he a pragmatist? Will he soften with time? And it's easy to say, but really only time will tell. But of course, people are incredibly worried. And so his movements are going to be incredibly closely watched. After the break, I talk with Louisa about what comes next for Syria. We'll be right back.

Support today comes from ZBiotics. Let's face it, after a night of drinks, I don't bounce back like I used to. I have to choose. Either a great night or a great next day. That is, until I found pre-alcohol. ZBiotics is the first genetically engineered probiotic designed by PhD scientists to help with rough mornings after drinking.

So, Louisa, we mentioned earlier that President Bashar al-Assad has now fled to Russia where he's been granted asylum.

What happens to him and also what happens to his family members and the other members of this regime that was so repressive? We just don't know the answer yet. What we are finding out this week is a lot about them. People are ransacking their houses and they're broadcasting evidence of how they lived.

And I have to stop here and say that Syria throughout this war has been going through a crippling economic crisis. Life has been incredibly difficult for people who live there. And what people are finding is evidence of luxury and largesse, unlike anything they'd really imagined was possible in some cases, while the rest of the country suffered.

And what is the overthrow of the Assad regime mean for these other countries that supported him? I mean, obviously, Russia, if he's taking refuge there, they've been big backers of the Assad regime. Also, Iran. Like, what does this moment mean in terms of the blow that this has dealt to those countries? I think that's the kind of thing that, again, we're going to need time to see. But what really happened at the end was,

they didn't step in as they have done in the past. Assad was alone and the regime was exposed as a paper tiger. And we have to keep in mind, Iran and Russia are fighting on other fronts. These are wars that were not going on during the early parts of the war.

Iran's most powerful allied force, Hezbollah, has been hit hard in Lebanon by Israel. We're about to see a new Trump presidency and that's expected to go pretty hard at Iran. So for their part, it looks like there's a degree of strategic repositioning here, right? I think they're thinking about where to concentrate resources, where to cut their losses. And although Assad's

or more Assad has been an important ally, but more specifically, having access to Syria and the corridors that it gives to other countries has been important for them historically. This was an ally that wasn't able to stand on his own two feet, and it seems that they cut their losses. The same for Russia. They were occupied by the war in Ukraine. They'd reportedly diverted resources there. And again, they likely saw that the regime's weakness was manifest, and they just weren't up for having the fight for Assad.

Well, let's talk a little bit about where the U.S. stands on all of this. What have we heard so far from the Biden administration? Biden spoke about Syria on Sunday, and he said this was a moment to celebrate. At long last, the Assad regime has fallen. This regime brutalized and tortured and killed literally hundreds of thousands of innocent Syrians. The fall of the regime is a fundamental act of justice. It's a moment of historic opportunity.

for the long-suffering people of Syria, to build a better future for their proud country. It's also a moment of risk and uncertainty. As we all turn to the question of what comes next, the United States will work with our partners and the stakeholders in Syria to help them seize an opportunity to manage the risk. What does that mean? What is the Biden stance on this, considering their opposition to Assad in the past?

This is going to be a tricky question for the US going forward because, as you say, they have been heavily opposed to Assad. They at times have funded rebel groups that fought him. But HTS...

has a terrorism designation from the State Department. That is something that I think a lot of people will be looking at right now. There'll be a lot of scrambling to work out what to do with it. It's also the case that we don't really know how this is going to go. So it may be something that is worked out in the months to come, not weeks. But it's certainly going to be a balancing act for the final weeks of his administration. And then, of course, we have Trump on Saturday. Trump described Syria as, I quote, a mess, but not, quote, a friend of the United States.

And during his previous administration, he'd made pretty big moves in Syria. He moved to withdraw US forces from the northeast, although ultimately that didn't really happen. He may do that again. But on the other hand, he ordered airstrikes at times on Syrian government positions after Assad used chemical weapons against rebel-held territory. And so...

It's not really clear which way his policy is going to go. He talks about retrenchment. He talks about ending the endless wars. But he has been unpredictable on this country in the past. I do need to ask about one American in particular whose fate might be affected by what has just transpired, and that is Austin Tice, a journalist who disappeared in Syria in 2012 while reporting on the war, and he reported for The Post. Yeah.

There have been efforts over the last few years to try to get Tice out of Syria, freed from prison. What does this moment mean for him potentially? I think all of us hope that finally this means he's coming home.

The thing about Austin's case is that no one has ever even officially claimed that they're holding him. He's believed to have been in Syrian government custody for years, but it's never been formally acknowledged. We've had very little information about him. And his mother actually said last week that she had potentially credible information to say that he was still alive. But as we were watching the pictures of the prisons opening yesterday and all of these people staggering out,

That was a face we didn't see. That doesn't mean he's not there, but we're all waiting to find out.

And this question of the people who are ruling going forward, as you said, you know, the U.S. isn't necessarily a fan of HTS or have concerns, the fact that they've designated this as a terrorist organization. But how do Syrians view this group and these other rebel groups that are now in charge of the country? Like, are they scared about the future, even though this is a moment also of hope and celebration? Yeah.

I think a lot of people certainly are. Because there is a guide here. And that is how HTS has ruled in the north of the country. And the answer there is that it has at times enforced its more Islamic rule to different degrees. But one of the consistent threads is there has been an authoritarian force. It has also not been easy to criticize them. They have also operated prisons. So

They're not the regime, but they have certainly shown authoritarian tendencies. And a lot of people are waiting and watching to see what's going to happen. So, Louisa, you know, as we talked about, you're waiting to enter the country to see what is actually happening on the ground. What are the questions that you have going forward about how this is all going to play out? And what are you going to be looking for if, you know, fingers crossed, you're able to enter and start reporting there?

Really, the question is, how does society come together and live again after so many horrors? Five million people have been living outside the country. Who comes home?

I think these are the questions on every Syrian's mind. And for a few days, at least, they're taking a moment to breathe, but they're there. And that's going to be the story going forward. It's going to be the people who are ruling, but it's also going to be the people themselves and how they ever move on from what they've been through. And thinking back to the conversations we've had over the past few days with Syrians, thinking back to Jihad's case and to his brother Majid's,

I just keep thinking about all of these Syrians who won't find answers this week, who won't see their relatives come out of the prison. In our years of covering the missing and the detainees, families have told us time and time again that to have a missing relative is to have a wound that does not heal. You don't have closure. I remember very well one man once telling me that he missed his wife so much that to stop himself from thinking about it, he would listen to the radio all day long.

But his wife's favorite singer was the Lebanese singer Fayrouz, and he lived in Beirut. The music would come on time and time again, and in those moments he would have to scramble across the room to slam the radio off because when he heard the music, he'd remember how beautiful she was and how much he loved her. And so everyday life for a lot of these people who don't get answers this weekend will still be waiting and hoping that maybe one day that will change.

Louisa, thank you so much for taking the time to explain all of this. Thank you. Louisa Lovelock reports on global crises for The Post. Before we go, here are a couple other pieces of news from today.

First, police now have a man in custody in last week's fatal shooting of the UnitedHealthcare CEO. Police identified the 26-year-old man as Luigi Mangione. He was arrested in Altoona, Pennsylvania, after he was recognized at a McDonald's there. Authorities said he was found with a document that showed, quote, "'ill will towards corporate America.'"

This arrest brings to an end a days-long manhunt after Brian Thompson, a health insurance executive, was shot in broad daylight outside a Manhattan hotel. And in the world of Major League Baseball, star outfielder Juan Soto has reached an eye-popping deal with the New York Mets. He has agreed to a 15-year, $765 million contract with

This is not only the largest deal in baseball history, it's also believed to be the largest deal in all team sports ever. So what makes this guy so good? Soto is a once-in-a-generation offensive talent. For example, he's had more walks before the age of 26 than any player in history. 99 more than the next closest player, Mickey Mantle.

But this moment also says a lot about the enormous amount of money in baseball, and specifically in the New York Mets. In the words of our colleague Barry Svrluga, this deal, quote, should send shivers through baseball. That's it for Post Reports. Thanks for listening. If you read The Washington Post, as well as listening to our reporting here, today is an exciting day because Newsprint 2024 just launched.

Newsprint is sort of like Spotify wrapped, but for the newspaper. You can find out what kinds of stories you read most this year, and you can get personalized recommendations just for you. So, for example, when I did my newsprint, I discovered, perhaps unsurprisingly, that I read a lot of politics stories this year.

But it turns out that I also love hearing about the chaos of other people's personal lives because I was one of the most loyal readers of advice columnist Carolyn Hacks. Apparently, I'm in the top 16% of the people who read her the most. So how is that for well-rounded? To find out what kind of Washington Post reader you are, check out the link to Newsprint in our show notes.

Today's show was produced by Sabi Robinson, with help from Ted Muldoon, Emma Talcoff, and Ariel Plotnick. It was mixed by Justin Garish and edited by Monica Campbell, with help from Maggie Penman and Rina Flores. Thanks to Naomi Shannon, Lior Soroka, Mohamed Elshama, Jesse Messner-Hage, and Andrew Golden. I'm Martine Powers. We'll be back tomorrow with more stories from The Washington Post.