#97 China’s (high-end) fashion industry
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Hello everyone, I am with LJ, editor of the World of Chinese magazine, which commissions Middle Earth. Hi Aladdin. So LJ, what are the exclusive stories that you guys have worked on this issue 104? We focus on how urban Chinese residents are reconnecting with nature. So they are lacking nature now? Absolutely. They discovered that there is a serious lack of nature education among urban kids right now. It has a negative impact on them, but there is also a strong effort to change the situation.

In a related story, we explored how a well-designed zoo in Nanjing has attracted large group of followers and how it has inspired them to care more about nature and wildlife.

And so in this issue, what are the other articles? Yeah, we also took a cruise ship down the Yangtze River, traced the history of game consoles in China, and uncovered why Hunan cuisine in particular is taking China by storm right now. So dear listeners, if you want to know more and support the podcast, go to theworldofchinese.com and order your latest copy.

Consider they could only sell a few million. It's not very effective with this many stores. Well, that's the problem with these old business models. So we're all looking out for you and your new business models with social media. That's so much more effective than opening stores. For sure.

Hi everyone and welcome to Middle Earth, your source for insight into China's cultural industry. Listen on to those who are making a living by creating and distributing art or content onto the world's second biggest cultural market. I'm your host Aladin Fahre, founder of China Compass Production. And apart from this podcast, if you need a location scout for an ex-project in China, translate a film, you should reach out.

Also, if you're a Chinese speaker and you don't mind my broken Chinese, don't hesitate to check my Bilibili channel, Aladin Shuo Dianying, link in the podcast description. Although I don't really like Steve Jobs, but I have totally followed his lead by never changing my clothing style. So today we're diving into a world that I know nothing about, fashion. China has been famous for selling boatloads of cheap t-shirts, pants and accessories, but there is also a story to discover about how being the factory of the world helped create a local high quality cloth market.

As usual, I will start with some numbers. First, let's not forget that China has the biggest e-commerce market in the world, e-commerce referring to the goods that you buy on Taobao, GD.com or online games. And that includes clothes and the fashion revenue of China. Clothes, footwear, apparel is forecasted in 2024 to be worth around 370 billion USD.

roughly three times the size of either the US market or the European market. It is a big industry because between 1979 and 2021, the number of clothing manufacturing enterprises in China increased from roughly 8,000 to 170,000.

an increase of about 21 times. I'm recalling the documentary "Last Train Home" that director Fan Lixin shot in 2007. He filmed the story of the World Factory and it was about clothes. And Fan Lixin was a guest on this show a couple months ago to talk about his latest feature doc, "Episode 93". Just like what happened with cars and smartphones, I think high-quality clothing industry eventually started to grow here in China.

And so we have brands like China Leaning, which is a very popular sport brand, or Beaux Sedans, which had a collab with French brand Jean-Paul Gaultier. Also, to be transparent, it is a bit hard to defend fashion because a $1 t-shirt would be categorized the same way as a 10,000 designer t-shirt. And this is why today we have three guests on the show to talk about this topic. All remotes, and they will help us understand a bit more about this industry and how it's changing.

So first, CK, hello. My name is CK. I have a brand named SciENZ. It was founded a year ago and I've been living in between Guangzhou and Shanghai for the brand. And next to you on the chat box, but on the other side of the Eurasian continent, Li Boyan. Hello guys, my name is Boyan. I'm a fashion photographer based in Paris and I came to France in 2010 and I got my...

And Boyan is actually an old friend and a recurring guest here now on the Middle of Podcast. He was interviewed on our episode number 24, dealing with the diaspora catering to Chinese clients abroad.

And last but not least, Lulu Tse. I'm sure I'm butchering your name right now. She's laughing. It's all right. Hello, everyone. My name is Lucretia Tseu, also known as Lulu, much easier to pronounce. I'm originally from Italy. I've been in China for around 14 years and I am the founder of Plush Consulting. It's a boutique strategy and marketing agency based in Shanghai, focusing on fashion, textile and lifestyle clients.

I'm also a visiting lecturer of strategic luxury brand management at Instituto Marangoni. We'll mainly talk about a brief definition of fashion, how the industry has evolved over the year, the journey of a young fashion designer to create a brand, and how the Chinese fashion industry might have a bigger impact on your life than you thought. And as usual, we'll finish this panel conversation with a podcast-usual quiz where one of our guests will win a prize.

First, I think for the first part of this podcast, I think I would like to talk kind of the big picture for people to understand. Because on that show, we talk about, you know, movie on one day, music festival on the other, how to make a Bilibili channel on the other. So, you know, so first, can we start to define the word fashion? From my understanding is that it's any piece of clothes and how you would see if it's like fashion would definitely means the price tag and how people would value it. I mostly consider fashion fashion.

Something that has a little bit of added value. I specialize in brand strategy and marketing. So something that is sort of a brand, there is a concept behind, there is a design aesthetic. This is what I consider fashion, but that's just because it's relevant to my work. However, when we think about China and the fashion industry, we can't

forget the production that happens here, which encapsulates all sorts of realms from the cheapest mass market products to fast fashion to luxury products as well. So it's a very, very wide range.

We also can consider independent designers and more emerging designers that we've seen becoming more and more present in the market here in China. And this is also something that we can discuss today, especially with CK, since she's one of the people part of this category.

I think with fashion, there are two concepts where there's apparel, which is like "fuzhuang" in Chinese, that's more a day-to-day life mass produced. And there's like fashion, which is more about creating something new, which is "shizhuang" in Chinese.

that's more related to designer brands and stuff. While I was researching this topic, I was really interested to see that it seems that was kind of my analogy. I'm not sure if you guys would agree with that, but I think we saw that with Chinese cars and Chinese phones. So far back in the day, like 10, 15 years ago, people would have seen China as the factory of the world, and then that's just where we made our product make cheaper. But then as time goes by,

Chinese companies started to learn that they could make their own products. And now I think the most famous one that we see are all the Chinese cars, all the EV, for example, that are starting to enter the European market, or even phones like Huawei, Xiaomi, and so on. I was wondering if there would be like some kind of parallel between like Chinese factories making clothes that could maybe at some point do exactly the same path as the car and the phone. Yeah.

I believe that there are three main factors that are contributing to this shift in a way from just being a production-focused industry to actually creating brands no matter the level. First of all, as the manufacturers and the factories here in China grew,

in experience and expertise throughout the years, they realized that obviously by making products, their own products or working with local brands, perhaps there would be also an opportunity to make more margin. And so that was one thing and not just relying on producing for foreign clients, which is often also affected by political issues.

relation crisis or things like that. So it would have been a smarter choice to also foster local clients or try to create products by themselves. And at the same time, it also appeared that purchasing power

Chinese customers grew throughout the past decades and also the acceptability of spending money on local products. There was no more a major difference in quality or perception between some of the important products and the local products. So I feel like these three factors have contributed to where we are today, where we have a portion of the industry that still caters to production only and

a portion of the industry that caters to creativity, innovation, the creation of new brands, etc. So these two things have kind of evolved together. Now to go from the macro all the way to the more personal story. So I think CK, now is the time for you to share your journey. Like you started your own brand recently. So could you share a little bit like why you entered this industry and how and why you decided to start, you know,

to be your own brand? Well, I think it's kind of overall, it was a trend of all the Chinese students going to abroad schools, learning art degrees and fashion is always what I wanted to do. But our scheme is actually very niche and very small because there's a high price range.

And smaller market and more limited sales channels. When we had our pre-interview and we talked about, you know, you started, you know, being your own boss basically and started a whole brand company. What I thought interesting is that, I don't know, maybe me being the outsider, maybe that's just like such a

outsider point of view but I thought that was interesting that you were telling me that you live in Guangzhou and you have access to all the factories and they're really next door you can send samples you can create stuff and you can have like a feedback on the product you want to sell really fast yeah if you are anywhere else in China

in other continents definitely the cost of making would be more in china with production it's a lot easier and actually here there are a lot of people and traders um and they could that are helping with overseas clients with production within china um i often hear that there are they have so many designer niche designer clients from paris or um

Milan that these local traders are working with that they're helping with in connecting them, the designers with the local production in China. So CK would be at the beginning of the production chain and then at the end of the production line, more like on the marketing side, we would have Boyan, which would be like taking picture in Paris on those all lovely places.

and streets. So Boyan, could you share over the past years, could you describe who are the clients? Yes, I actually had a lot of clients from China. From the very beginning, there are four fashion weeks in Paris a year. So mostly I worked with influencers or celebrities, Chinese celebrities or the Chinese magazine editors.

for doing some shooting during the show. Then I got some contact from some requests from Chinese brands, but basically from the big group, which means they have a lot of stores in China. They're not quite the same from the, how to say, the same from the Chinese young designers.

Most of them, what they are doing is to come to France and take their photos and videos and their images to do some publicity in China. But they are not really interested by the local market, which means the European markets.

they basically make a lot of sales in China. They take Paris or France as a very, very beautiful image. And they use the image to tell Chinese customers that we are connected to the Western fashion world or basically we are a European brand or we have a connection, a collaboration with the European fashion world.

Yeah, I think for Chinese brands, especially more commercial fashion groups, they used to really kind of always base a lot of their communications or their materials with images influenced by doing photo shoots abroad or really showing that they're international, that their design comes from Italy or from Paris.

this was a very important element of the messaging that they would then broadcast here in China. But now there's a lot more brands, even commercial brands, that don't need to really enforce this narrative. They can just broadcast

simply say that they are a Chinese brand and they don't need to justify that. And they can just form whatever narrative that is based on their authentic inspirations and concepts that come from China. They don't have to be reinforcing the idea that they are as good as international brands. I've seen a lot more confidence

from the brands and from the consumer side. So although we always see this exchange, and maybe it might just be because it suits the current campaign, it doesn't have to be an overall story of showing, hey, we can go to Paris as well. We can be sidelined with a

our counterparts from Europe. That's interesting because in 2019, the World of Chinese magazine, we wrote an article called Talking Shop. And the first line of that article was a quote from the fashion enthusiast, which went, quote, the problem with most Chinese brands is that they just copy the looks of the West.

And I'm wondering if that assessment would still be true, like almost five years later from what you're saying, I guess not really. Yeah. I mean, that's not that long ago, so I would still disagree back then as well because, um,

Now, there's a lot of different inspirations and it doesn't necessarily have to be international brands. We've seen a lot of commercial brands in China actually taking inspiration from independent designers in China. So it's like copying within each other. Copying is a phenomenon that just happens. And especially when we talk about brands that are more commercial or fast fashion, that's just their business model. They would not invest in...

in a creative team or product development, which takes so much money and time, they would just see what's already popular. And now with the help of technology and data analysis and AI and all of that, they can just make this process so condensed and so effective. But if we talk about...

let's say a brand that would take the time to go through a creative process, may it be independent or at whatever level, then I would say that they have inspirations. Yeah, they could come from abroad, especially if the designer has been there or studied there, or it could come from their childhood or whatever realms of inspirations that a designer or a designing team may have.

Yeah, I agree. I think I totally agree with Lulu. I've simply talked about the brands that I had in Paris. I think the brands who wanted to come to do a shooting in Paris, they basically have that need to show their, you know,

how to say international side like they are mostly connected with maybe fashion week of Paris but actually recently I got more and more requests of Asian or Chinese models for the shooting which is not the situation of before because

Before the big brands of China that I had here to do the shooting, they always asked that European models were other nationalities models. And recently I got some brands, they wanted only Chinese and Asian models, which seems like I think in China they are more and more into Asian and Chinese faces.

Which means I think of course, as Lulu said, they don't really need to show their "we are European brand" or "we are so connected with Western..." Sorry to use that word. So I kind of agree with Lulu too.

I've seen that as well. And I think it comes from the idea that consumers want to be represented. And it makes sense that if you buy, especially if you buy cosmetics, you want to see it

on a skin tone that is similar or features that are similar to yours. When it comes to clothing, it makes sense that it would be fitting to your own lifestyle. And also with social media, a lot of consumers base their research or even their purchasing on

kind of choices based on KOL influencers, micro influencers, and these are all Chinese people mostly. And so that is just a change and a trend that has been happening. But I think in a way, internationally also, consumers tend to want to have a closer representation to their own life and not something unattainable.

And so this the translation of this concept in China is having models that are Chinese and also of different beauty standards to the Chinese traditional beauty standard. It could be Chinese models that are from different areas of the countries. It could be mixed. It could be different ages. And this is happening quite often in my in my work as well.

Regarding all the video things, so Sike and Boyan, if you could share how important and maybe a bit naïve doing self-media and video and picture is getting for all the fashion brands and the designer. Yeah, definitely, for sure. I mean, social media has been probably...

one of the major ways to promote your own brand, especially when you're small. And it's like one of the fastest way as well, especially nowadays, it's been a trend of presenting yourself as the designer to represent your brand. It happens to all the, you know, the popular designer brands that are

all over the world. For example, like Jack Moose from Friends, which is a very good example of how designer has a very good reputation of himself and that therefore actually represents his brand. It's been happening within all my peers as well.

I have this friend who's also really good at promoting himself. So his brand like grew up really fast with his followers grew rapidly on all the social media channels. So definitely social media content, very important. And I'm wondering like all your peers, like can you share a little bit like what's the...

price tag of most of those clothes like if i may share i see uh ck most of your of your clothes are like around 1000 yuan yeah the price range would be 1000 to 5000 for you and your peers like the people that you mingle with and your friend yes yeah i totally agree with ck and it's uh it's very important of course the social media contains are very important and more and more important for many of the

I think for the 99% of brands, they are doing at the same time the commercial shootings, such as campaigns, lookbook, and some street styles, contents. And they are just sending their samples to a lot of influencers to ask them to make some social media contents and to do some

advertising on their own platform. It's almost as important as commercial publicities. And I do know that we go a little bit all over the place, but at the end, it's just the podcast is supposed to be around 35, 40 minutes. So sorry if it feels maybe a little bit like a cut, cut, cut and moving to all of places. But also, this is why we just try to cover the whole industry and give kind of a bird-eyed view. But of course, like...

There are more articles that the world of Chinese would talk about this. Like we talk, for example, about like all the vintage clothes and so on. But that's definitely a topic for another day. To move on a little bit, I thought that was also interesting to see like now how like Chinese big groups are buying like brands abroad. Like I'm, for example, thinking about the Anta Group.

which is a sports clothes so we're not really talking about fashion and the kind of things that ck and boyan would work on but it's still this industry and so for example the anti group which is a sports clothes boats the arcteryx brand and boyan you mentioned to me before that they were like a lot of a lot of french brand being bought by uh

Chinese brands and it's just like I guess a question of you know big capital buys another person just you know to expand their portfolio as a matter of fact I worked with a big fashion group in China called Senma and on top of having their own local brands they have either invested or bought licenses for foreign brands so I

we were consulting and doing marketing strategy for the international brands that they just brought into the group, which is always a very interesting task because you have to maintain a

the identity of the brand and how the brand is known abroad. And at the same time, find ways to kind of localize it and make it relevant to the consumers here. Particularly, we worked with a brand called Juicy Couture, which was in its heyday when I was in middle school and high school in Europe and the US. And literally young people in China didn't know what this brand was. They have never heard of it. They didn't know the celebrities that were related to it because they were all mostly American. And so we kind of had to try to

on how to make it relevant. So in terms of this kind of...

acquisition of foreign brands. I think it's because when groups have resources, they want to expand and there are two routes, either to foster or incubate or create new brands or to purchase one that or license or buy the license of a brand that is already existing. And since Chinese brands, independent designer brands are just starting. So the choices are mostly focused on international brands and

I have noticed that in most cases, it's more cost effective to buy a brand and try to localize it and make it relevant in China than to start a brand from zero, whether this brand is international or local. So I think it's a practical approach,

And his approach that is cost effective and probably would be able to make the returns faster. Yeah, I was just wondering what I would do with my $1 billion under my mattress. Okay, good to know. But joke aside, those people in China buying like international brand, their goal is to just extend their portfolio or they would also bring them into China to basically give like a new option for the consumers?

It could be portfolio. It could be combining the resources. So we've seen, for example, a Chinese brand called Icicle. They bought Carvin, which is a French brand. And then that allowed for the Chinese brand to also have a design center based in Paris. And it's kind of like blending the resources and also or Lambang Group, which

It's a Chinese group, Fuxing. They changed their name to Lan Wang Group. This has a very international approach now. So there are different reasons behind it. But what's interesting is that we've seen also now international companies investing in Chinese brands. And so this is, I think, what's going to happen over the next few years as well. For example, Documents is a fragrance brand company.

born out of China and L'Oreal group invested in them. So there are a lot of new trends in terms of investing or incorporating brands in portfolio. It goes both ways. And now I think we're going to see more and more interest in local brands, in Chinese local brands as well. Pretty common for

local Chinese capital groups to invest in foreign brands. And that's what happened to the company that I worked at before, which was Alexander Wang, who just got a huge investment from the Chinese capital group because it's

a lot like what Lulu said, it's a lot easier to just buy or invest in some brand that's already successful and well-knowledged internationally. And they both developed the stores within China market, but also in North American market. So they just...

very quickly open up many more stores to expand the sales channel. Maybe a little bit simple, but where do you think we're heading basically in the fashion industry towards the future? What are the things that are going to happen? I just think it's really interesting that, you know, back, I mean, a bit before everyone was talking about decoupling and everything, especially in tech and so on.

And I see that at least in the clothes and apparel industry, I can see like it seems that things are getting more linked one with each other. But I guess clothes and microchips are definitely two different things. I want to actually circle back to one of your first questions. And I think it's actually connected to this current question that with the whole parallel to the electronics going abroad. I mean, SHEIN is actually a great example of, you know,

Chinese apparel companies expanding or, um, uh, into the European or North American, uh, markets. And not just Shein, there are actually a lot of, um, other, um, these, uh, similar overseas apparel trading companies that are, um, taking over a huge market, uh, share of the European or, um,

North American countries, for example, there's also one called Cupshe. It's in swimwear. And actually, they only focus on foreign market with swimwear. They grew also really rapidly, so quick that they are now one of the biggest client for Google in terms of commercials and stuff.

But I'm just wondering, I feel brands like Shein, maybe don't they have like some kind of PR blowback when people are now kind of thinking the impact of, you know, ecological impact of fast fashion and things like this? I think, I mean, people,

People kind of care, but in specific markets, I think that there is a high level of consumerism. And so if it's not Sheen, it's going to be Timo. And then tomorrow is going to be X, Y, and Z. And they just do the same things that just better at PR.

But the interesting thing is that these brands that we've mentioned, these companies are practically unknown to the Chinese consumer. People don't really have any idea of how powerful these Chinese companies are becoming worldwide. And literally, if we think about Shein or Timu, they're the vast majority of packages that are entering the North American market these days. They're coming from China. So this is definitely a trend that's going to

keep on happening in the next few years. Another huge trend, I believe, is social media becoming a, um,

a, a retail platform, uh, an e-commerce platform. So live streaming is essentially taking place and it's expanding not only, uh, in terms of, uh, purchasing power and how much the consumers are, are happy, uh, buying through live streaming in terms of amount, but also the types of brand they're adhering, um, this phenomenon. So, uh,

In my job, I'm seeing myself having to adapt the strategy for customers that, I mean, clients that before probably were not considering this strategy. But now it's either doing your own live streaming as a brand or working with influencers that are specialized in this realm.

So I think this is definitely going to take place more often and more successfully so in China because the platforms are already made in a way that can support this. Whereas I am aware that, for example, Instagram or other Western counterparts, they're still trying to figure out how to monetize on this trend. Is there like one last thing that each of you would like to share that you thought the people listening to this podcast should know regarding today's topic? That's a bit too broad to elaborate on.

I can just fling at an answer. I think when we talk about Chinese fashion, most people are not aware that there is a vibrant ecosystem that encompasses everything from supply chain to creatives to a lot of inherent cultural textile techniques and things like that, artisanal processes that are kind of getting rediscovered these days.

So whatever goes on in Italy or in France, and there is a rediscovery of local culture and sustainability and local production, this is happening in China as well. But I understand that the fact that people might not be aware or interested is because there is a language barrier. We exist in China through different social media platforms. So there is not a lot of information exchange and access there.

But I think now after COVID that we can travel freely again, there's going to be a lot more presence of Chinese designers and brands back to the international fashion weeks, back into the international buying stores or department stores. So I think there's going to be a little bit more exposure than what we've seen in the last three, four years. Well, I would hope so. It's not like there were a lot more exchange opportunities.

I feel like last year we were hoping for some kind of rebound of tourism and exchange. I'm not sure this has happened much, but what about the two other guests? Anything else you want to share? I just would like to say that China, there is so many, so many talented people in China and Europe.

It would be a really big pleasure to see more and more Chinese young designers come to abroad and to open their stores abroad and to see their products here. And more and more, they are already there. I mean, through the years, there are so many excellent Chinese designers, brands in fashion weeks and events.

not only in Paris Fashion Week, also in Milan and London. So, but I don't really see a lot of their, you know, brands, their stores in Europe into the European market. And it would be really great to see them here and more and more, you know,

that one day I can tell everyone that, uh, this is a very excellent Chinese brand. And then it would be, you know, I would be really happy. Maybe this will be CK's brand in the near future. Yeah, of course. Um, yeah, I mean, I could elaborate on what Boyan just said that, um, definitely with, um,

I mean, with commercial companies like Aisin or Temu, they have big capital to kind of go overseas and kind of be able to commercialize and sell online. And I think with Chinese brands, specifically designer brands,

The scheme is the whole scheme is still very new that definitely the designer brands needs more support in terms of sales, operation, marketing and such and such. I think

with because of the education system we are trying to as like these niche designers we are trying to replicate what the all this already very successful designer brands are doing spend a lot of money on marketing spend a lot of money on runways but definitely I see there's a lack of help in terms of sales so therefore I definitely agree with Boyan it's it would be great to see more designer brands with

their DTC offline stores open in Europe or North American countries hopefully I think it's going to take time but definitely I think there are I could see there are more professionals that are helping with these brands with you know other knowledge with sales and stuff

Thank you, everyone, for sharing all of this. And yeah, hopefully we'll have a pop-up store of CK's brand in LA where most of the middle-of-podcast people are. But I guess those are more like movie people. So now we're going to end the conversation between our guests and we're going to move on to the last part of the show, my favorite, the quiz, where we'll see who is the most knowledgeable among our guests.

So the rules are really simple. I will ask a few questions. If you know the answer, you first buzz in with your name. For example, if I ask a question, I have to first say Aladdin and then I get the right to answer. Each correct answer gives you a point and the person with the most points obviously wins the quiz and the winner of the quiz will receive the latest issue of the World of Chinese magazine.

So there are three questions and a backup question. Question one, let's go back in history. I mean, it's not so much history as it is Chinese legend because there are no archaeological evidence. But can you tell me, in theory, who invented sericulture, the use of worms to make silk?

Is this someone Chinese? Yeah, obviously this is someone from China. Boyan? Yes. It was Lei Zu, right? She was the woman of Huang Di? Yeah, the late Yellow Emperor. Yes, yes. So she was the spouse of the Yellow Emperor and apparently she's the one who invented the silk. What a great and a powerful family. Okay, one point for Boyan.

Okay, question number two. Can you tell me who was the first Chinese star? I mean, according to me and our research, I hope I'm not wrong. Can you tell us who was the first Chinese star to be also a fashion designer? And like a lot of stars, this person has done a lot of jobs like singing, acting, even video game voiceover, things like that.

people are scratching their head on the zoom call it was in the early 2000s I wouldn't know too early okay maybe I will say the name of the brand Clot C-L-O-T C-K-A I know it's Edison

Edison Chan. Yes, yes, yes, CK, you win the point. It is Edison Chan. Yeah, apparently this guy had a really interesting life. We'll post his wiki page. A lot of things happened. And he recently came to Shanghai Fashion Week and did collaborations with local brands.

So it was a very good project. Yeah, you guys can check it out. Super cool. Question number three. Let's play Guess the Number. So I will ask a question. Each one of you will say a number and the closest to it will win the points.

So the famous brand China Li Ning sold a number of pieces in 2018, like a number of clothes, basically. Can you tell me how much piece of clothes they sold in 2018? Each one of you will say a number and the closest to it will win the point. A billion? 500 million? Okay, Boyan? 1.5 billion? You guys are crazy. It's only 5.5 million piece of clothes. I mean, do you want to...

We thought it's something so extravagant, worth noting. Actually...

That's okay. Like a couple of million makes sense. So that means each of you has a point. So fortunately, this is why we have the backup question. The game is not over here at the World of Chinese Podcast. Question number four and backup question. It's also, I guess, the number so that, you know, we make it easy win. Can you tell me how many stores does the brand Bisa Dong has? Lulu 500. I'd say 700. Well, Boyan 600. Okay.

Well, according to the company website, it is 8344. Wow. Okay, so congratulations, CK. You won the quiz. We're very far out.

Well, consider they could only sell a few million. It's not very effective with this many stores. Well, that's the problem with these old business models. So we're all looking out for you and your new business models with social media. That's so much more effective than opening stores.

For sure. On that note, we'll wrap up the show. Glad to have you until the end, dear listeners. I guess you like that show. And if you do, you can help the Middle Earth podcast to grow by recommending us to your friend. Let me remind you that Middle Earth is part of TWC, the World of Chinese Podcast Network. If you want to know more behind the headlines, go to theworldofchinese.com and order your latest copy.

Also, if you are impressed by this show guest and need to find an interview for your next documentary piece or use a researcher in China, you can give us a call. Today's episode was produced and edited by Aladin Fahre. Production assistant, Ren Jiaying. Music by Sean Calvo. And distributed by the World of Chinese Podcast Network. Hope to see you next time. Bye-bye.

Looks like our listeners are still doing their dishes. We're really committed to their workout. For sure. Since you're still here, if you want to learn more about Chinese society, culture, and language, you should head to theworldofchinese.com and follow us on WeChat, TikTok, and Instagram, where you'll discover an impressive collection of award-winning in-depth stories and fun, informative videos, as well as amazing podcasts. Of course. Well, until the next issue then.