How to Navigate Conflict & Build Amazing Friendships | Danielle Bayard Jackson
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There are some things that if you don't personally work through, it will be difficult for others to be in relationship with you. And I don't mean for that to sound harsh, but if you can't take negative feedback because you've been through things that for some reason you perceive feedback as an attack, well, it's hard for people to be in relationship with you because at some point I have to let you know how the things you say and do impact me. We're in a relationship together, but if I'm unable to do that, I'm unable to do that.

safe to do that. I mean, what does that mean for us? And so the beautiful and tricky thing about friendship is it brings a lot of your personal stuff to the table. And if you can't confront some of those areas that need a little polishing, it will, I believe, limit your capacity for depth and closeness with other people.

So have you ever felt like your closest friend just kind of doesn't get you anymore? Or maybe you don't get them and there's this tension, maybe even a wall or a divide forming between you. Maybe a major life change caused a rift that now seems impossible to bridge. Or maybe lingering unresolved conflicts have just strained what was once this unbreakable bond.

Maybe you can't even pinpoint the reason, but you just know something's off. If you've ever found yourself in that painful place of feeling disconnected from someone you care deeply about, this conversation is for you.

My guest today is Danielle Byard Jackson, author of the book, Fighting for Our Friendships, The Science and Art of Conflict and Connection in Women's Relationships. A former high school teacher, Danielle now dedicates herself to understanding the nuances of platonic relationships through the lens of science. And as a member of the American Sociological Association, she leverages the latest research to create practical strategies that empower women to deepen their connections.

Her expertise, it's been featured everywhere from the New York Times to Oprah Magazine. Companies like NBA, NFL, TikTok have brought her in to share insights on cultivating authentic bonds. She's even served as Bumble's resident friendship expert. And with her new book, Danielle is on a mission to equip readers with the tools to navigate the complexities of friendships and find more fulfillment in their platonic circles. She reveals some pretty surprising science.

behind why our most treasured relationships can sometimes feel so fragile. And more importantly, she shares proven practices for restoring harmony and renegotiating expectations and reigniting the spark that brought you together in the first place. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. ♪

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I'm fascinated just by your own personal journey, your trajectory. As we're having this conversation, you're deep into the world of friendship coaching, especially with women. But this was not sort of like where you started out. This is a place that you sort of like you eventually came around to in the earlier days, high school teacher, publicist. Tell me about the journey that actually takes you to doing what you're doing now.

Yeah, you know, I always joke that, you know, when I was eight, if somebody would have told me that when I go to a party and people ask, what do you do for a living? And I'd be responding by saying, I'm a friendship coach. Like, it just seems silly, right? But that's what happened. And it definitely wasn't a journey I intentionally set out on, just kind of happened. So I began as a high school English teacher teaching 12th graders. And I quickly noticed that between

And I realized that our department meetings...

teachers were saying, man, I feel like I can't even get them to focus on the material because these two aren't speaking to each other and this person. And so we had a front row seat to the ways that issues of connection and belonging were impacting everything else. I got out of education. I went into public relations. And it didn't take long before I saw that I was working with these charismatic, high-achieving women.

And I learned that secretly behind the scenes, they too were deeply unsatisfied with their personal friendships. So for the past six years, I've been leveraging my background in education to study what the research has to say about women's cooperation, communication, and conflict. And so far, it's been a fun and enlightening ride.

Yeah, I bet. I mean, it's interesting, right? That you had almost like this dual lens. First, seeing kids in high school and seeing these issues pop up. And then looking at like, you know, you assume fully grown adults out there in the world, making their lives, making their careers. Right.

And seeing similar issues and saying, oh, this isn't actually something that goes away. I'm curious, in your mind, was this something that maybe you saw even deepen as we got further into life? You know, I feel like we maybe get better at masking our feelings.

hunger for connection, things like that. I think there's some shame that comes with it, right? That at a certain age, you start to feel like, I should have figured this out by now. I should have all my lifetime friends by now. So I see some of that, which young people aren't struggling with. But one similarity I see is,

We're still hungry for connection. We're still scared to be rejected. So we don't put ourselves out there. We're looking for our people. And a lot of that I've noticed is universal. And it's the same no matter if you're a scrawny 17 year old or a highly successful 45 year old businesswoman. I want to dive into a bunch of the research and the ideas and the strategies with you.

But before we get there, you know, one thing that also occurs to me is when you're doing this work to make that final transition from publicity to friendship coach, when you started describing this, I can see you on video and there's like a little bit of a smile on your face.

Am I really calling myself this thing? But the work that you're doing is really important and grounded in research and practical experience also. When you decide as a publicist with your publicist hat on, okay, I'm going to actually start my own thing. And you know how important positioning and language and storytelling is.

Did you think also about like, how do I step into this space, which is so critically important and figure out how to describe the work that I'm doing in a way that lands as real and credible? Because I have to imagine that was a conversation that was going on in your head. 100%. That's such a great question because we were very much thinking about what do I call myself, right? And these days you're thinking about things like, you know, search engine optimization. What title do I have? What's already tracking? What...

What will people think when they hear this? Is it confusing? So thinking through all those things, how do I make this so that people have a sense of what I do and what I offer as quickly as possible? But there was a lot of personal work I think I needed to do to get there because I was very embarrassed to call myself a friendship coach in the early stages, even though that was quite literally what I was doing. I remember I first announced it at a book club meeting I was having with

highly intelligent women. One of the women has sold two businesses to Google. So to stand up next to her, it felt silly. And I definitely got some looks, but I had to get secure with knowing I know what I do offers value. It's just kind of difficult when you're in a culture that has so much reverence for

marriage and for parenthood, these relationships we know are important. So to say I'm coaching people through how to enhance their platonic connections and find more satisfaction with tangible ways, it commands a little less respect. And so I had to get comfortable with I know that I can bring this value even if people don't necessarily appreciate that service.

Yeah.

How do I make and deepen real, genuine, lasting friendships? Because I think as a kid, we're often put into these containers that are created for us, whether it's clubs or associations or school, where there's kind of like somebody else has brought us together for us to sort of like find people and bump into people and figure out who are our people.

But as adults, we often go out into the world and we're left to do it so much to ourselves. And we don't have a lot of good lessons or information about like, this is how you do that thing. Oh yeah, I noticed that immediately. The research tells us that our social networks grow and grow until about the age of 26.

at which point they begin to shrink, which makes sense. A lot of us were coming out of college and then we're starting to adopt sometimes competing interests, competing priorities. So you might have a friend who's really serious about establishing family ties and another who's going to really focus at work and it takes us in different directions. And now we're outside of the social backdrop of an academic institution to keep us all unified. And we are confronted with the reality that

man, I've got to facilitate a lot of those opportunities by myself now. I've got to coordinate time for friends, but I also have a partner now and a kid. How do I do this in a practical way? Because my need for it has not changed. If anything, you might argue that it's deep and I don't know. But yeah, I think when a lot of people realize, I don't think I know how to do this and then realize, oh, there might be help. It's okay to get support.

for this, I think is a big aha moment for a lot of us. Yeah, that makes sense. And I wonder if you saw, you know, three year global pandemic, what the impact must have been then, because all of a sudden, people at least were together in this one place they called work, and then that got blown up for so long. And then so many people are sitting at home trying to figure out, okay,

A, I'm scared of being around other people a lot of the time. And then even if you were comfortable with that, so often just the nature of work has changed so dramatically that it's so much more on us, I feel like, to actually step into a relationship mode. Were you seeing that during the pandemic? Absolutely. And still today. I mean, if a person books a session, they have to fill out a little form. And I would say maybe 30% of the inquiries that come in have something to do with, I work from home. I am in the house all day.

And I miss people, but I don't even know what to start doing. And a lot of the ideas we have in our mind are things like I need to be suddenly become an extrovert. I need to go to one party a week. Like we think of these grand things and don't know what's available to us. But

Yeah, the change in work from home 100% has directly impacted how connected we feel and the opportunities we have for connection. You know, there's a few other cultural changes too, environmental changes, I suppose. You know, a lot of things kind of impact that. If you have fewer walkable cities, that's a barrier to go and hang out with the bud down the street. If I've got to get in the car and go to the commute, you know, people are talking about the collapse of...

third spaces and places where we go together that have nothing to do with school or home. So again, more of it is on you. And the last thing I'll say is when you have a... We often point to us being in an individualistic society. I want us to look at the cost of some of these modern day conveniences because you have more incentive to stay home. I don't have to go to the movie theater. I'll get it on Netflix. I don't have to go to the library. I'll get it on my Kindle. I don't have to get groceries. I'll

I mean, there are so many things that make life convenient, but they're taking you away from others. So you're less likely to have those serendipitous moments where you chat somebody up in the checkout line. And so I think there's an amalgamation of factors that work together to create a sense of isolation for sure. Yeah, those are such great points. When you zoom the lens out also, if we're talking about friendships, especially women friendships among women,

Yeah, the big question, you look at a lot of the research that's really come out. One that people tend to cite all the time is the Harvard study or the Grant study, which went on for some 80 plus years, where sort of like the big conclusion from that study was the single biggest determinant of a life well lived was the depth and quality of your relationships.

The knock on that study is it was all men, you know, and it was eventually they added different studies together and to sort of like stratify the socioeconomic status of the different men in the study, but it was still all men. But I think more broadly, you're starting to see research really show like, okay, so we have this one study that everyone tends to point to, but this matters for everybody. And the effect, not just on having friendships, but on physical and mental wellbeing, it's just so powerful. Yeah.

Yeah, you know, I will say that I knew the work that I was doing was important and it mattered, but I felt like those things began to help people to buy in, that I could anchor the conversation in. Well, you know, the research says this is the number one thing that dictates how happy you are and how healthy you are. It helps people to kind of have a moment of,

I guess that's true. I guess I never really thought about it. But yeah, I'm constantly surprised by new studies that come out to essentially highlight the same findings. But to see the direct connection between the strength of our social bonds and our physical, mental and emotional health is just so powerful. And I just...

I always say that I feel like it should give us a sense of urgency around prioritizing. How are my friendships? What's the quality of my friendships? What does my friendship landscape look like? And to prioritize that because it really has such a big influence on everything else.

It's interesting. I was just reflecting on the name of your book, Fighting for Our Friendships. And the word fighting is a fierce word. I'm curious what went into choosing that word. Because it obviously conjures an image of a physical confrontation, but-

Whenever we think sometimes of tension and friction, it's negative. But what if we were, what if there was a positive function of conflict? What if it helped to advance our relationship, to deepen our relationship? And what are the things I need to do that involve friction to preserve the friendship overall? And I just was so

kind of inspired by my irritation of seeing so much content around how to break up, when to break up. I mean, we were looking at the popularity of certain phrases people are searching in Google and on Instagram, how to break up with a friend, signs to break up with a friend. And there was so much around ending relationships. And obviously, to some degree, you know, it would be unhealthy to stay in a friendship that's toxic. I get it.

But I really do believe that we have fewer models of what to do to stay together. How do I come back after we disagree? How do I, you know, so how do I keep something that's good without ending it prematurely? And I just believe that we have fewer models of that. Yeah. And this is something that you focus on early in the book, right? It's the notion of conflict and conflict.

What you describe as healthy conflict. And I think so many of us, when we hear that word conflict, our immediate reaction is, you know, no, that's something we don't want. Like, we do everything we can to avoid this thing called conflict. And yet you make a really compelling argument that says, no, actually, no.

It's going to come up. So let's talk about this idea of conflict and actually maybe the fact that it's necessary and good and how to actually do it in a way that's constructive and healthy. Take me into this a bit more.

To your point, you think of conflicts, you think, oh, that's something I need to avoid. Or for some of us, we think, if I'm experiencing conflict with a friend, is this evidence that we weren't as close as I thought? Is this evidence that the relationship is over? But I mean, as two different individuals, we're each bringing our respective set of desires, desires.

Preferences, needs, boundaries, goals to the table. Don't you think at some point there's going to be friction when the things I want don't don't mesh with what you want at some point? It is inevitable. But, you know, the research tells us that on the other side of healthy conflict always

Often lies the platonic intimacy you've been looking for. I often have people describe to me their ideal friendship. They often paint a picture, this vignette, you know, somebody I can just hang out with on the couch and we can just run our mouths right. But we don't realize that conflicts are an opportunity.

opportunity to meet a need, to solve a problem, to be more heard, right? And to understand another person a little bit better. And so we've just got to find a way to change our attitude toward conflict because it does have positive functions. Yeah, that makes so much sense. I mean, if you think back to who are the people who have been closest to you for the longest amount of time, and you're like, have we ever argued? Have we ever like not had this like

Well, yeah, but they're still around. And probably if we reflect back with enough distance, those moments, the fact that we actually survived them and figured out how to navigate them and showed ourselves differently, more vulnerably, it probably is why they're still around because we know each other in a more deeper and connected way. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

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I'm curious what your thoughts are. You know, when we, so when we talk about healthy conflict, what are some of the hows that we should keep in our mind when we think about like, okay, so how do we do this? If, you know, if, and when this comes up and it will eventually, how do we step into this in a way that feels like it can be not just resolvable, but maybe really constructive for the relationship? Yeah. So this sounds, you know, super simple, but sometimes we got to start with the ABCs, but it's to remind yourself that,

Okay, I'm doing this in service of the friendship. I'm raising this issue in service of the friendship, especially for women who often have a tendency to be agreeable. I don't want to be seen as a difficult woman. I don't want to be drama. I want to go along to get along. So for a lot of us, we're holding that in. The fact that she said something that made me uncomfortable or she has this habit that feels a little disrespectful, but I don't want to bring it up. So even raising an issue feels very vulnerable because...

it brings with it a risk of rejection that this doesn't go well, that the person abandons you, right? But good friends want data on how to love you well. So the first thing is to see this as an opportunity for us as a team to get more clarity for each other and to remind yourself the right people want that information. I think that kind of changes everything. It will shape the tone, the words you use when you bring it to the table and to

offer those reassurances when you go into a difficult conversation that you're doing it in service of the friendship. I once heard someone say that the three questions we're ultimately always wanting to know is, am I safe here? Do you love me? And do I matter?

It's the perpetual question that I'm asking. And so for some of us, when a person raises an issue with us and they're about to give tough feedback, we're questioning, do you love me? Am I not safe? So how can I front load this experience by reassuring, hey, something happened last night and I didn't know what to make of it, but I love it when we're on the same page. So I thought I would ask you, what did you mean by...

Because the story I'm telling myself is da-da-da-da. What did you mean? And after we collaboratively work through that, we're moving on. So how can I convince you that I'm doing this because I care about you? If I didn't care about the relationship, I probably wouldn't bring it up.

I just move on. And so some of those attitudes and approaches can help soften us so that we can engage in bristly conversations that are necessary. I love that. Something you said early in that response also, good friends want data to learn how to love you better. That is so powerful and so compelling. But oftentimes we don't look at it that way. We're like-

Well, if we actually share this thing, if we share what's on our hearts and minds, that data, that's going to be a source that pushes somebody away. But if it does push somebody away,

maybe they're actually not who you thought they were. And this is something I've been sitting with lately too, is a lot of times we think, well, if they bristle at it or if they withdraw or deflect or whatever it is, we think, oh, they were not a great friend. And maybe that's true. But it's also true that people are dealing with their own stuff. And that's why it's really important to be self-reflective because there are some things that if you don't personally work through, it will be difficult for

others to be in relationship with you. And I don't mean for that to sound harsh, but if you can't take negative feedback because you've been through things that for some reason you perceive feedback as an attack.

Well, it's hard for people to be in relationship with you because at some point I have to let you know how the things you say and do impact me. We're in a relationship together. But if I'm unable to do that, I'm unsafe to do that. I mean, what does that mean for us? And so the beautiful and tricky thing about friendship is it brings a lot of your personal stuff to the table. And if you can't confront some of those areas that need a little polishing, it will, I believe, limit your capacity for depth and closeness with other people.

Yeah. I mean, it's such a great point also, right? Like this notion that, okay, so if you actually share what you need to share and it doesn't land well with the other person, maybe it's actually not that they're not your person. Maybe they're going through their own thing at this moment in time and they're just, they're not resourced. Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I almost wonder if like you share it and then you're really paying attention to the other person and you see them kind of either bristling or pulling back or you can tell it's not landing well. Like if it would be interesting in your mind to even ask them to say something like, hey, listen, I see like this is landing in an uncomfortable way. I'm just curious what's going on sort of like inside of you right now.

Oh, love it. Yes. Because even acknowledging that is an act of care. So I'm confirming through even asking that question. Okay, it seems like, you know, this is not sitting well. Talk to me. What's going on? Because I see you tensing up. You know, so even those kind of verbal responses are evidence that, yeah, I'm bringing this up, but I also care. The two can go together. And, you know, to some degree, hopefully we're with people who

Who can do the work like that back and forth? Hopefully, because even if I can be compassionate toward the fact that you've got external factors that are impacting the way you engage with me, the reality is I still get to choose if I want to stay in spite of that. I can be compassionate and also say, listen, you're a fixation on making passive aggressive remarks all the time. I get that that's how you're working through some stuff.

but it's hurtful to me. So I would have to think through if I want to be in relationship, despite the fact that I still care about you. Because again, once you're in that relationship, you're in partnership, the things we do do impact one another. That's just the truth. Do you see this come up also when people

start to really understand what their boundaries are and then express them. And even just the expression of a boundary to a friend sometimes can land in a weird way with that friend. Like almost like, like you saying you stating what your boundaries are,

feels like aggression to them? Oh, a hundred percent. Oh yeah. I've had it happen to me before where maybe some boundaries I'm understanding of, but others don't make sense to me. So I'm less understanding because I'm like, wait, what do you mean you don't want me to do this? Or what do you mean it bothers you when I do this? That's silly. So I'm judging whether or not I even think it's a valid boundary, you know, but having to tell ourselves, this is not personal to me. I get a choice here. If I want to accommodate that or not, am I willing to? Is it a big ask?

Is it something I can do? I just feel a little indignant about being told what to do. You know, so really unpacking what's going on. Why did I kind of buck up at that? And is there a way where I can reframe it to see that my friend trusts me enough to give me that information? But we do get to decide. But again, we get to decide along the way if it's something we can accommodate, if it's a friendship we value. So we're willing to make those adjustments. One small example is I had a friend to, you know, if it's quick stuff, I'll text. And she said to me, OK, Danielle,

at some point, let's hop on the phone. I don't really like the texting thing. My other friends don't mind the texting thing back and forth. And I'm willing to accommodate that. It's a small ask. I can do it. So for each friend, I'm going to cater to your communication style, a little bit of mental labor on my end, but that's what I'm going to do because that's the experience you need, you know? And so we have to ask ourselves, okay, well, I don't prefer it. But if this person's giving me information that this is how they feel well loved and

I can make the adjustment without feeling like it's somehow a compromise to myself. I mean, why not? Yeah. I mean, I feel like oftentimes that's also, there can be a generational thing as well. I think certain generations have just really adopted whatever is sort of like the most pervasive communication style or mechanism or channel. And they've been doing it that way for years and they're comfortable in that.

And then a different generation comes along and it's just native to a completely different mode and channel of communication. And that alone can create conflict unless one or both folks are kind of like, let's figure this out together. It's just a matter of preferences and finding out how do I honor? And also how do I communicate in a way where we keep the sacredness of the relationship intact? Because I

I often wonder if the channel that we choose to communicate really affects that. What's your take on that? Oh, 100%. I'm always recommending a book called Digital Body Language. And the author pretty much makes the case that the same way we have visual body language. So for example, if I'm talking to you and you start rolling your eyes and crossing your arms, I think, oh, this person's irritated by what I'm saying, right? But digital body language. So the...

mode of communication you choose impacts the message, whether you know it or not, the length of your message, right? So if a person sends you a quick message, are you thinking they're being curt? They don't care. And if it's essay style, are we like, okay, they care because they took the time? Or are we thinking, whoa, they're like overly invested in this or lecturing me because of the length or the brevity. So all these things we do

help to shape the way the message is received. And so we have to think to some degree very intentionally about how can I reduce or minimize the level of ambiguity as much as possible. So you receive this the way I'm intending it. And what are the things that might get in the way? Then let's not do that, especially for very sensitive or emotional things. Yeah. I actually have a friend who

who just as a matter of policy, they respond to pretty much every message with less than five words because they get a zillion messages a day. And it's just a survival mechanism for them. Like they're the only way, but they will respond to literally everybody who messages them

But it's always going to be really short and sweet. And over time, they actually wrote a post about it and published it on their website. And at the bottom of every email, there's a little thing that says, hey, listen, this message is short and sweet. If you want to know why, click here. And it literally just gives context to anyone who's sort of like new to that person's style. So this is not personal. It's not that I don't want to say more. It's just that I actually really want to be able to respond to all the people that

And the only way they can do that is just to be fairly direct and concise. So that's why you're receiving this from me. And I hope you will accommodate and understand that. I thought that was a really interesting approach. Oh my gosh. I think that's brilliant. I think that's so great and efficient. And when it comes to friendship, this is such a good example because we communicate with friends, right? That's what we do. That's why we're in relationship. We communicate. It sustains the relationship.

I have seen so many breakdowns because of the ambiguity that arises during these moments, right? Even duration, how long it takes you to get back to me. Does my brain start to fill in the blank? I guess I don't matter. I guess she's too busy. And it's like, actually, she's overwhelmed and has two kids under five. And it's the last thing she's going to do, right? So there's so many...

and gray area that we make, and then you respond to the interpretation. I mean, there's so much of that that often happens. And, you know, I've once heard it said that, you know, friendship is the most ambiguous relationship you're going to have. But

Because in every other context, we kind of know the terms and conditions and how this is supposed to go. But with friendship, I mean, we're working with different expectations of what friendship even is and how often should a friend communicate. Are you looking for weekly check-ins? What do we share? We're kind of figuring that out with everyone we meet. I mean, gosh, sometimes we don't even know if we are friends. Right.

We're like, oh yeah, we went to coffee, but I don't think she's my friend. You know, so our job should be, especially in friendship too, is to reduce the ambiguity as much as possible. And I think it will minimize the misunderstandings that we have as well. I love that. But in a weird way, it's almost like,

who says I love you first? It's like, because to reduce ambiguity, you've got to kind of make a statement that says like we're friends, right? Or something like that. And that takes vulnerability because you're kind of like, because you're kind of saying, well, I want to be this person in your life.

But what if the other person doesn't feel the same? That's 100% right. And you know, this is such a simple exercise. But oftentimes with clients, when they're stuck in that rumination cycle, like, I mean, I could do this, but what if, I mean, we can do that all day long. And at some point, it's simple, but we'll go through a list of, okay, pros and cons.

Or what are the costs and benefits? Because every decision you make, there are costs and benefits. So you could withhold that I love you because it's risky. It might make you look clingy. They might not respond right. But what is it costing you? Are you noticing you're spending every day

wondering whether to say it? Are you noticing that you feel especially tense when you guys are together because you don't know if today's the day you ought to say it? What is it costing you to choose to withhold that? And what might be the benefits of just making it plain? It might have a short term, it might bring some short term discomfort, but you would know how this person feels

You would have been honest with how you feel and you would get information back that you need to be able to move forward with your life and keep it moving. So yeah, vulnerability and fear of rejection is a, I often say that I really do think fear drives a lot of the decisions we make in our friendship. So I definitely see what you see. Yeah. And that kind of raises the opposite side of this rather than expressing your desire to be in friendship and to be open and kind and loving. Yeah.

And this is a topic you talk about also early on in the book is this notion of relational aggression. Take me into this. Okay, so this is not a term I coined, but the idea is that relational aggression is where you are striking at others in more covert ways. And this is definitely not exclusive to women. I can't stress that enough, but you might see it happening more.

with women, my theory is because there are often social consequences to the woman who displays an open act of aggression. And so we feel this constant pressure to maintain an appearance of cooperation. So how do I aggress at someone I don't like or I feel like is threatening without looking like the bad guy?

And I've had women say that phrase to me specifically several times. Well, I don't want to look like the bad guy, look like the bad guy. So we're constantly managing our, how we're perceived. You know, we always have the joke of, you know, the image of the guys who can just punch each other in the bar and then they're hanging out the next day. And it's just like, I don't know how you can do that. You know, that's probably

not going to go over well with women. And so when we do aggress, because we all aggress, when we do aggress, it might look like a comment that you can't tell is a compliment or an insult. It might look like I invite, you know, three women to dinner, but

not invite you. It might look like gossip where I just kind of share something that's not really kind about you in a very veiled way, right? So, you know, the research finds that it's more effective to have these subtle negative remarks and

as opposed to flat out accusation. So for example, it's more effective to degrade my target by saying, you know, guys, I'm really concerned about Amber. I mean, have you noticed she's kind of been aggressive lately? I'm concerned. That's more effective than saying Amber's such a witch because now I look vindictive. But if it's out of my concern,

Right. Then what I'm doing here is I'm separating Amber from the group and changing the way they perceive her, whether or not they are in alliance with her. And so sometimes women will aggress in this way because we're also charged with the burden of maintaining an appearance of cooperation. So that plays a hefty role sometimes when we are in the midst of conflict with one another.

How do you handle moments like that when they come up, when there's something that's said or offered, there's an undertone. And also when it's not maybe 100% clear what the intention was. You kind of think like, well, this was an aggressive act towards me, but I'm not 100% sure that it was. It feels like it was.

But at the same time, getting back to the earlier part of our relationship, you know, like you also know that conflict happens in relationships. There's a way to have healthy conflict. And maybe this other person, you do want to stay in relationship with them. Like if there's something going on, if this was an expression of aggression towards you, you would rather actually just deal with it more directly and say, can we actually resolve this and, and keep on keeping our, maybe even deepen into our relationship? Like, how do you step into that if you're on the receiving side?

So that theme of reducing ambiguity also applies here. You know, I want to go to something you said. You said sometimes it's kind of hard to be able to decipher. That's the magic. That's the magic is to purposely make it

kind of confusing and vague so that if I were ever confronted about it, I could deny it. So if ever someone said like, oh, did you not invite me to the party? Did you leave me? I can say, oh no, we didn't even, we weren't doing that intentionally, right? Or if I make a little comment, you know, was that a dig at me? Oh no, I didn't mean it that way. Oh no, I didn't.

to know that you were sensitive to that. So it's these little things so that if I ever were confronted, I can deny it. You just took that the wrong way. That's a part of the magic, right? I mean, I say that facetiously, but that's a part of why it's so effective. But what helps, I've advised some women is one, you want to confront the person one-on-one because sometimes things don't go well when there are witnesses to the back and forth power struggle. Two, you want to be...

as clear and concrete as possible. So saying things like, I feel like you were being kind of shady or that's elusive. I feel like you were giving attitude. No, I noticed that when I came in the room, this is the second time that you mentioned X, Y, Z. What did you mean by that?

Let's get to it. Okay. And if you're doing this with someone who you notice they operate in this way, then that's not a safe person to be around. And I hate for it to sound dramatic, but at some point, this is the difference between healthy and unhealthy conflict because healthy conflict is an opportunity to meet and eat or solve a problem. But if you're giving the silent treatment, you're gossiping to other friends, you're excluding her. You have no intention of reconciling, meeting a need or solving a problem that's unhealthy. So what

You know, I often joke that I feel like I can't really settle into knowing a person or being good friends until the first time I disappoint you unintentionally or make you mad. Because I'm curious, what's your style? Are you the type to say, okay, Danielle, that was a little, a little heated. And then I'm, oh my gosh, you're right. Okay, I'm sorry. I want to know, or is it I'm going to give her the silent treatment, or I'm going to give her attitude. Because how

Conflict's going to happen, but I have to be in relationship with friends where I feel safe enough to relax because I know that if I ever offended you, you're going to tell me. We're not going to do the game playing. There's no time for that. And that comes with a certain level of trust to even be able to fight well together. It's funny as you're describing that, it makes so much sense to me. Like, let's do what you can to go from being ambiguous to concrete. Like, let's just make this really crystal clear. If you've got something to say, let's talk about it. And-

And figure out, like, are we going to be okay or are we not going to be okay? But at least let's actually center this. Let's have a real conversation around it. And oftentimes that just never happens because people just want to do the dance of not dealing with it. And it doesn't go away. I mean, I think that is the nature of relationships. You know, stuff that's not dealt with, it doesn't just magically resolve itself. At some point, you know, it just...

basically keeps spiraling and getting worse, or it drives you apart. And if you didn't have to be driven apart, that could be the loss of somebody who maybe would have been amazing in your life. So I love the advice, the way that you suggest stepping into that. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

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And we kind of referenced it a little bit in the communication style earlier is this notion of what happens when a friend doesn't reciprocate. You brought up earlier, let's eat in the basic idea of you text somebody and they never text you back. That could be viewed as not reciprocating, you know, but then there's bigger things. Maybe you do a favor for them or you take their kid to a game or whatever. It's like, or you just, you give them a thoughtful gift because they were on your mind and like you never get something back.

This is something I would imagine that comes up a fair amount also, and it's really hard to deal with. Oh yeah. I office, you know, I always say that questions about reciprocity and friendship. I mean, if I had to rank probably the top three things that are coming up, this is one of those top three things is, is I feel like I'm the giver. I'm the initiator. I'm contributing so much. And so three quick points to that person. The first is not comforting, but just something to try before we go deeper. The first is, can you find a way to zoom out and,

identify the ways in which this person is demonstrating an investment in the friendship. Because so often, and so many people are familiar with love languages, and I know people feel different ways about that. But so often we are looking for a friend to give in the way that we're giving because that's meaningful to us. But you know, maybe you're the initiator, and that's what you do. But have you noticed that every time you initiate, they're like, heck, yeah, let's do it. Or they're like, hey, this one's on me.

Or they're asking about, you know, you recently said that your dad was hospitalized and unprompted. They're asking, hey, you know, how's he doing? What's going on? What do you need? So is your friend contributing and investing in ways that maybe you're not acknowledging because you're so fixated on getting it back in this particular way? It's just one thing I think is worth asking, right? The next thing is if you want them to participate in the same ways, you can ask, right?

And it can be positioned as an invitation, not an accusation. So let's say your issue is with taking initiative. You feel like you're the one who's keeping it going. You know, maybe after you all are walking out of brunch or some kind of hangout, you say, hey, this was really fun. Like, I love when we do this. I noticed that the last couple of times we hung out, you know, I was giving you my ideas for what we ought to do and things like that. But

How about next week? You tell me where you want to go. How about next month? You hit me up when you want to connect or I know you're busy, but you know, I'd love for the next time you, you take the lead. You got this. Tell me what you want to do, right? There's a playful tone, but my subtext is the same. And that's, I'm going to invite you to participate in this way. One little thing I want to mention there is fear of rejection plays a big role. I've heard from many people who have told me that even with friends,

people that it's been established that this person likes you. They're so fearful of being shot down that they do not initiate. They say, well, she's probably busy. I don't want to reach out. Or I've had women say, you know, I don't have good ideas for where to go and what to do. Or she's the person who's the planner. And that's just the ecosystem we've been functioning in for 10 years.

right? Not knowing that on the other side, this person's growing resentful that she has to do all the work. So there are a lot of different things at play. But if you realize, hey, in a bunch of different contexts, financial, emotional, I'm giving and this person's not matching, I've invited them to participate, then you would have to reevaluate the friendship, maybe just manage expectations and turn your attention more to people who reciprocate in the ways that you're looking for.

Yeah. It's interesting. You bring up the notion of resentment also on behalf of the person who feels like they're not being reciprocated to, um,

And I've seen that build up. I've probably experienced it myself where you feel like you're giving in whatever way feels relevant to you. And I love the notion that you offered also of really trying to scan the horizon. Maybe they are giving back, but not in the way that I'm giving to them. So in their mind, they're fully in this and reciprocating too, and you're just not seeing it. But if you really feel like it's not happening, this notion that over time that that can lead to resentment that builds and builds and builds,

I wonder if you also see some people with a wiring that's kind of like, oh, I'm feeling this resentment building up towards this person that I say I love. I say that as a friend. I, quote, shouldn't be feeling this resentment. So the fact that I'm feeling it is actually a source of shame for me. And that stops me from ever doing anything to address the fact that I legitimately feel like I'm not being reciprocated to in a meaningful way.

Yeah, that is so interesting. You know, when, when I think when you like look up the definition of the word resentment, it says something about you perceive that you're being treated unfairly, you're perceiving mistreatment. And so I totally see what you see where some people have that, that frustration compounded by the fact that they feel guilty that they feel that way. And it could be helpful, honestly, to take some power out of that and to be less overwhelmed by that to communicate it to the person you're feeling that way. And it doesn't have

to be, again, an accusation, but just to take some air out of that growing steam inside and to say like, sometimes I think it would be really great if we had more of this. I think it would be great if we had more. So instead of pointing to the lack, instead of pointing to where you fall short, I'm going to highlight what I would love more of, or, you know, I really feel connected to you when X, Y, Z. And, you know, even as I say this, I want to laugh because I can see it so clearly doing this with friends, but in my marriage, I'm not really great.

You know, that resentment's bubbling up instead of saying, babe, you know what I would love? Or you know when I feel most connected to you is when we do this. I want more of that. You know, and so, which I got to go and tell him that afterwards that I'm sorry, but...

I'm feeling convicted, even as I say it now, you know, but like, how can I take some steam off by sharing it with the person who I'm perceiving mistreatment from if it feels safe and appropriate, instead of telling myself, no, no, you shouldn't feel guilty about, you know, you shouldn't feel that way. Why do you feel that way? You know, and I'm sure that is probably a result of some other issues that we're all trying to deal with, you know, that

probably stem from childhood. But I think, again, I think the right people want that information. I know that if a friend of mine was harboring resentment or secretly feeling like I ought to be doing more differently, but was never telling me, I know that I would feel hurt, maybe offended that she wouldn't trust me enough

to tell me that. And it would probably explain why I'm experiencing things from her like distance or passive aggression or one word text responses, right? So it's definitely interesting. Yeah. And when we get those things, we start to tell the model in our head, we create the story in our head of what that actually means, which often is completely different from the story in the other person's head of what it means to them and sort of like why this is showing up this way.

One of the other sort of like friendship experiences that you talk about, I thought was really interesting. In a way, it's almost like the opposite of what we're talking about here is the notion of a controlling friend. That friend that steps into the relationship and kind of wants to take control over everything, including sometimes you and the choices that you're making. It's like, you can't eat that. You can't go to this place. Or we're all going to do this. Like I'm planning the agenda for this whole thing, X, Y, and Z for three days. Right.

Talk to me more about how this shows up in relationships, because I would imagine some people actually on the other side of it really like the fact that they actually have a friend who's controlling because it lets them opt out of decision making. But even then, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's healthy.

Oh, totally. I'm so glad you brought this up. With the controlling friend, we often think of somebody who's like very like loud and domineering, but it can also look very soft and gentle. And I genuinely want the best for you. That's why I'm saying you need to break up with that guy. And that's why I'm saying that we all need to go to this restaurant. I'm telling you, it's the best spot.

Like you're going to love it. You know, so there are good intentions. It's like this is an act of care is to try to influence or take over the decisions that you make, the things you do, don't do and say. But that's always going to be an issue, even if it's well-intentioned, because a part of the happiness playbook

is having some sense of agency and autonomy. So even in this friendship, I still got to be me. And if I'm starting to get the message that if I don't make the choices you want me to make, that you're not going to be happy with me or that there's no room for me,

to push back and proclaim the things that I want to, that's always fundamentally gonna be an issue. Unless, of course, to your point, you have someone who, again, for whatever childhood reasons, maybe feels like their voice doesn't matter. They've been raised in a home where they were minimized in that way. So now they're an adult who's used to somebody else taking the lead. Maybe they've always been so highly attuned to mom and dad's emotions,

Because you had to, you were on guard of how they feel that you've been trained to always be attuned to other people first. Well, she seems happy with this. So I'll go with this choice because she's happy about it. You know, so I'm sure that there's other influences that kind of shape the dynamics. The person who the controlling friend is always often paired with. But for those controlling people, and again, I have been that person before out of love.

having to realize, wait a second, I am pushing this on another person. She's a big girl. She can make the choices that are right for her, even if I don't like them or understand them, or I believe that they're not good enough for her, the choices she's making. These are her choices to make. And that's not my responsibility. And there's some freedom in that too. So that can be tricky. And it's definitely something I've heard before. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

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These ideas are just all so important. One of the other things that you talked about that I thought was really fascinating, I hadn't really thought through a lot, was this notion of what happens in a friendship when you have what you describe as a newly changed friend.

And I can imagine all the different scenarios where this happened. Maybe somebody's gone through a major health incident or a major loss. Maybe somebody has had some sort of spiritual awakening or transformation. Maybe they've gone through a relationship ending in a really big way or something like that. But there's so many different ways that this could show up where somebody is really changed in a profound way, one person in the relationship. It really can affect the relationship on both sides.

Oh, absolutely. You know, I think we know intellectually that friendships are dynamic and friendships are going to change. We all know that when it's happening in real time, it is really difficult to navigate. I mean, even psychologically, you're thinking, wait, what's happening? This is not the friend I know. You know, is there still room for me in this person's life? Do I have to be like them and join them on this journey to stay together? There's a lot going on. And this sounds like a very unromantic notion, but

Sometimes our friendships do not endure because they were based on circumstances, because we had shared interests and that was our thing. It was the foundation of our friendship. So if this person takes away the very thing that was kind of our bonding glue,

What do I do? And for some of us, we might realize, okay, I can adapt a little bit and we can stay in relationship. It just might look different. And others might realize, well, gosh, if she or he has adopted this new mindset, I don't even know what to talk to him about. I don't know how to engage with you. I don't know if I have time according to your new lifestyle. And those are really, those can be really stressful, really tense crossroads to get through.

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting also, right? In a kind of weird, funny way, it also speaks to one of the other things that you write about, which is the notion of the negative friend. And I think we've probably all had work experiences where we've been in a moment in our work where there's a lot to complain about. I don't know anyone who gets to a certain point in life where you don't raise your hand. Everyone's had something at some point. And maybe people listening now are feeling that way. I hope not. But

And when you're in that moment, you know, the truth is it kind of feels better when there's other people with you and you're all complaining together. Commiseration can be, you know, a pretty powerful experience and you're kind of all in a bit of a negative space. But the fact that you're going through it together and kind of complaining about together and sharing this, whatever level of suffering there is together can be this really powerful bonding experience for friendship, right?

But maybe then when you emerge or maybe you leave and you find a different job and you love it and it's having, and this other person is still in that place, or maybe you both leave. And then you realize that person is just like sort of persistently negative. It actually wasn't the job. That also is something that you speak about can really be like, that can really stress a relationship. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's hard. Like I said, if there are certain things that bonded us and the research does show that when there's like a third party and we both have negative feelings for the third party, then it bonds us closer together. So it does work. It's a bonding agent. But it does become tricky when the thing that brought us together no longer exists.

and we have to figure out, well, did our friendship offer other things? Were we grounded in other things? If so, it might feel salvageable. Well, at least we have this, or how can we amplify the things that do connect us and whatever it is. But for some of us, yeah, the main thing that connected us was our shared hatred for this company or in the schedule that we had. I hear a lot of people say, we were really good friends at work and then

We both left and got new jobs and I don't hear from her anymore. You know, like maybe it was that close proximity that was a main bonding agent is the fact that I'm seeing you for six hours a day. And then we go out for mocktails or whatever it is on Fridays. Like we have these rituals that are largely possible because of our shared lifestyle and schedule. I mean, and again, I hate to be reductive, but some friendships do form out of these circumstantial things. And when those things change forever,

friendships, those friendships sometimes don't last. And so it's helpful when we have different things that connect us. In fact, there's a study about multiplexity. And the idea is that these friendships that have where they play multiple roles, like this person is my neighbor and my friend or my hairstylist and my friend or my church buddy and my gym buddy, when we can enjoy each other in multiple contexts, it might be more helpful to

and keep us more resilient. But if it's like work was kind of our thing and now work changed, or for some people, drinking and partying was kind of our thing and then she stopped.

And we don't know how to enjoy each other in any other context. I mean, then, yeah, it's going to maybe alter the trajectory of that friendship. Yeah. I mean, which brings up another really big question here, going all the way back to the beginning of a conversation, which is, okay, so if some friendships are worth fighting for, if some friendships, they're just sort of like naturally, they met a point of completion, right?

How do we know which friendships are worth stepping into and during the struggle and during the hard conversations, like engaging in the conflict in the name of this is worth this. I feel like this is worth trying to figure out because I want it to sustain. What do we look for to know whether a friendship is worth fighting for or not?

That's a great question. And there's like 20 different, like if we create like a little checklist, but you know, some, some big, large scale things to me are, you know, do I like how I feel when I'm with this person? Or is this person worth, does it feel worth all the adjustments I have to make, whether that's of my time, emotional investment, right? You're, you're having to be available for this person to vent as a friend, you're willing to be inconvenienced.

for a friend. That's what a relationship is long-term. Does it feel worth it at the end of the day? Again, this sounds very pedestrian, but overall, does the good outweigh the bad? Because in any friendship, there's going to be stuff, but does it feel worth it? Because there's so much good stuff that I'm willing to take this little stuff over here. And I feel good about who I am when we're together. I like who I am in this friendship. I feel like it's a growth-inspiring friendship.

I'm becoming a new person. I'm learning new things, having this person in my life. I mean, those are good signs that this might be something worth fighting for. If it's a person who can do hard things with you, then it's worth it. We can have tough conversations and be okay. But for a friendship where you start to realize there's a certain fragility and I can't show up as my full self, there's no space here for me to address hard things. Is that worth it? If you've got to constantly measure your words, I mean, that requires a sense of mental labor.

But either way, I always encourage people to get clear on if this is something I want to keep engaging in because the research tells us surprisingly that ambivalent friendships might be more physically detrimental than outwardly negative friendships, which sounds ridiculous. And obviously, we don't need to be in toxic relationships. But the idea is that the constant wavering

Well, sometimes he's nice, but I don't know. That takes a physical toll on your blood pressure and all the things. So I always encourage women, it's worth to take a minute to sit down intentionally, kind of technically and think through, do I want to keep investing and make a decision and commit? Because the wavering, the rumination, the back and forth is not doing you any favors. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, uncertainty for most people lands as stress and stress in your system is just

We have enough stress outside of that that's just going to come to us naturally. We don't need to invite more stress that is potentially resolvable. But as you're describing that, also what I'm curious about is, and I want to make sure that I'm clear, what you're not saying is that you need to get to a point where you agree on all things in order to say this friendship is worth fighting for. Because there are a lot of people now, especially after the last chunk of years, who are

who feel really differently, who have very different belief sets about things that are really important to them. And yet they look at the other person across the table and say, this person would get on a plane, fly across the country for me and take care of me if God forbid I ever needed that. They love me deeply and I love them, but we really profoundly disagree on this one thing that's important to both of us. And that is something I think a lot of people are grappling with. And that's one of those things where it's like, is that enough?

to make this relationship not worth fighting for anymore? Or is it one of those things where I'm going to say, there's enough good here so that even though we both acknowledge that this is a thing between us, we still want this? Yeah, that's such a powerful and timely question, especially with what we've got going on right now. And as we enter an election season and all the things that I know for a lot of people, it feels difficult sometimes to even have a conversation with a friend when you know a certain topic is going to come up. And it has you walking away thinking like, who's going to

who is this person? Like, I don't even know who you are. I don't know. You know, it's really hard. And especially when, you know, our political beliefs for some people are so tied to like our overall values. And then it's like, can I be in relationship with a person who shares completely different worldviews? I think one thing that's helpful to constantly keep in mind is

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Sometimes we have to update the terms and conditions, update the contract. When we first came together, the unofficial contract or rather the groove that we kind of fell into, the rhythm was we talk every day about things big and small. And maybe after five years, 10 years, this person's worldviews are changing. The things that I'm committed to, my spiritual beliefs are changing. I've had kids. It's changed my lifestyle.

Maybe we've got to update the terms and conditions. Maybe it no longer feels appropriate or safe to talk every day. It stresses me, this person and the things that they talk about. It's stressful. But I realized, man, I can enjoy her once a month in group settings. It's super fun. Or maybe we have to take these topics off the table. But when we talk about family stuff, we're good. So is there room to modify, adjust, and up

Yeah, I love that notion of renegotiating terms and conditions.

You wrap your book in a way that really resonated with me, which is, okay, so a lot of this has been about you and another person, the nature of the relationship. But fundamentally, at the end of the day, for us to be in any sort of good, honest, meaningful, vulnerable relationship where we show up as our true selves, it starts with us. And oftentimes, that's the last place we look.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, even when we're talking about friendships, a lot of the questions I get are, how do I find the right friends? What are the signs to look for in others? It's so other oriented. And I get really excited when women come to me and they're like, I just, I don't know, maybe I need to look at how I am as a friend. I want to be a better friend. I'm like, oh,

interesting. This is a promising place to start. And you know, for me, yes, I did realize and I know this sounds so woo woo, and I'm not typically a woo woo girl. I'm like, here, here's the data. So it's vulnerable for me sometimes to go here. But I really did realize that the more comfortable and settled I became in my own skin, the more comfortable I became in my own skin.

I could experience more harmony with other women. I found myself comparing less. I found myself less threatened by her success. I found myself less critical because I started to see other women as an extension of me. Even if you kind of have an attitude, I can just look at you and be like, gosh, I've been there. I know what that feels like. I see you as an extension of myself because I feel settled.

and to who I am, you know, flaws and all. And so I think a lot of it really does start there. How can you be confident in what it is you have to offer in a friendship? How can you be resilient when you are rejected? Because that is inevitable. But the difference becomes, do you internalize it when you're rejected?

oh, this is confirmation that I'm not interesting enough or lovable enough? Or do you let it sting a little bit and you're like, you know what? Okay, well, it wasn't our time, you know? And you find a way to move forward in spite of, you know, so getting comfortable with rejection and who I am and what I offer and what I don't.

I think has allowed me to love more freely, apologize quicker. I feel more courageous in friendship to share a boundary or apologize or to ask for what I want. I just feel braver. I feel more alive and I feel more settled with myself and as an extension of that in my friendships. I love that. And it feels like a great place for us to come full circle. So in this

container of good life project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To live a good life, you have to have good friends and be a good friend. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode of Safeway, you'll also love the conversation we had with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford about the power of women's circles and friendships. You'll find a link to her episode in the show notes.

This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers, Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez, Christopher Carter, Crafted Era Theme Music, and special thanks to Shelley Dell for her research on this episode. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app.

And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable, and chances are you did since you're still listening here, would you do me a personal favor, a seven second favor and share it? Maybe on social or by text or by email, even just with one person. Just copy the link from the app you're using.

and tell those you know, those you love, those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen. Then even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project.

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