#123: Kiwi returning home, Global talent relocation, NZ working culture and TCK with Bridget Romanes
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Kia ora, ni hao and hello. Welcome to the Chewy Journal podcast. I'm your host Camille Yang. My guest today is Brigitte Romans. She's the founder of Mobile Relocation Company, helping Kiwis returning to work and live at homeland, assisting migrants and expats relocating to New Zealand. We talk about Kiwi returning home, global Thailand relocation to New Zealand,

and Kiwi Working Culture and Third Culture Kids. I hope you enjoy this episode. Welcome to the show, Bridget. Thank you, Camelia. It's wonderful to be here. Shall we start with your background and your journey as an expat to funding your own business, helping expats?

Sure. Yes, I guess I had always somehow from a very young age wanted to be an expat. I always envisaged myself living outside New Zealand. You know, I was really excited by different cultures and different countries. And I just saw it as part of my life that that would happen.

I can't say that I was very sure how that would happen. So I trotted off to university. My first expat experience, I guess, was moving from Auckland to Dunedin to go to university to the other island of New Zealand. And that was purely because I wanted to be in a different city. I didn't want to stay in Auckland. I wanted to be somewhere else. I think perhaps that was my first step without realising it.

So I went to university down there and really got to the end of my degree and the sort of jobs were floating around. And I went to some interviews. I went to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade for an interview. And that sounded quite interesting because it meant that I could live overseas. So I joined MFAT as a diplomat.

Went off to postings in India first and then Singapore, both of which I loved for completely different reasons. Enjoyed living and working in both those places. You know, it had its ups and downs. Some moments were really challenging, but the whole experience overall was incredibly, you know, mind-opening. Changed me as a person in many ways. You know, I had to learn the hard way how to...

be cross-cultural because I was working alongside people of different nationalities. It wasn't a choice. It wasn't like I was living in the majority culture in New Zealand anymore where people from overseas came into my world. I was going into other people's worlds. So I had to figure out how to make friends and be effective and do my job and be happy. So yeah, that took quite a lot of learning.

But it was a great experience. And while I was away, I really went through all the different facets of being an expat. I went, my first posting to India, I went initially by myself. So I was a single woman, quite young, 23 or something. And then my partner joined me. So my son had a partner who initially wasn't working. So that was interesting. And then he got a job. So then we were both working. And then we repatriated back to New Zealand.

And then the second time we went away to Singapore, my husband got a really good job at the same time as I was sent to Singapore. So we both went as a dual career couple. So we both had to manage our relationship and our jobs in Singapore.

And then I had two children overseas, which was another experience in a medical system, which wasn't what I was used to. And, you know, having to make friends, I didn't have my old friends around me who were having children at the same time. I had to make other parental friends, which was great fun. Some of whom are still my really good friends today.

And then we returned to New Zealand having left. I don't think we took anything to Singapore except a bit of air freight. When we came back, we had, you know, an enormous container full of baby stuff, all sorts of things, and repatriating to New Zealand where I'd never lived with children. And I was actually pregnant as well. So I suddenly had to then understand the New Zealand maternity system. Didn't even really know where families lived in Auckland. I just lived where my parents lived.

So that was quite an experience. So I got through that journey and then I did a bit of policy work and some freelance writing, a whole range of different things.

and started working for a company working with expats coming into New Zealand. And that sort of drew on all my experience, my personal experience. Did that for a while. And then I sort of thought, well, actually, that's great. But I think there's a different way of doing this that aligns us more with supporting employers who want to bring expats into New Zealand because, you know,

New Zealand has these huge talent and skill shortages, so having people come to New Zealand from different countries to work here is going to be part of our future for the long term. Sometimes I think employers just see the person as the talent, they don't see them as the whole person, and what it's like for somebody to move countries is completely different than

than just employing a Kiwi who may have come from another company just down the road. You know, they might come out of their driveway and catch a different bus to work, you know, because they're in a new office. Whereas for a person who's moving to New Zealand for work, they're re-establishing their whole life here.

So what we wanted to do was work with employers who were doing that to enable them to get the best out of the talent that they were employing by addressing their needs outside work as well as just doing onboarding in the office. So what we do is essentially onboard people to New Zealand in the same way that their employer onboards them to their new role in their new organisation.

So that's where I ended up. And so we founded Mobile Relocation in 2016. And we've been going strong since then. We had a bit of a dip last year, I must admit, when the border closed. But since then, we have done a pivot and we're now working not only with corporates, a number of whom can still get talent into New Zealand if they're in areas that New Zealanders really needs right now.

but also with returning Kiwis of which we've never seen the number that we have now. And increasingly there are people who've been away for 15, 10, 15, 20 years. So for them it is, as was my experience, they're coming back at a very different stage of their lives. They've been on holiday in New Zealand, but they haven't lived here for a long time. So many things have moved on and changed here. So they're like expats really. Um,

So now we have an even broader client base, which is fantastic. So that is a long way of answering your question, Camilia. That's great. Last year, I was living in the UK and a lot of my Kiwi expat friends who lived in the UK for more than a decade, they all returned to New Zealand. I assume they're probably facing a lot of challenges. So based on your experience, what are the top three challenges for you?

facing the returning Kiwis? Well, the first one I'm going to highlight is something that I experienced personally, and I hear it from a lot of returning Kiwis. And that is you don't realize how far away New Zealand is until you come back, live here. Again, when I talk about my reasons for wanting to be an expat, I think it's the same for most Kiwis who leave. They want to experience a wider world. You know, you were telling me before we started chatting that, you

You were in London, now you're living in Europe and you want to stay and travel and you get very used to living like that and being exposed to lots of different things all the time. And so when you come back to New Zealand, we had all these amazing plans. Yes, we do an overseas trip every year and, you know, we need to keep connected. You get back here and you realise how much it costs.

You only have a certain amount of leave per year. If you want to go back to Europe, the seasons are the wrong way around. You know, when you have your big holiday, it's not summer in Europe, but in New Zealand it is. So the practicalities of that and also the mental disconnect from the rest of the world. I mean, it's great. You can do a certain amount online and on Zoom, but it's not quite the same as being there. So I think that is a big wake-up call that people –

often don't really appreciate. The other thing, number two thing, I guess more broadly, is reverse culture shock that most returning Kiwis experience. And I think the best piece of advice I can give on that is expect that you will experience, expect the worst.

Because most people do go through it in some ways. And it can manifest itself in many ways. It can be as much as coming back and your family and friends in New Zealand who haven't been away expecting you to be exactly the same person as you were before you left. And you're not because you've had all these amazing different experiences. Some of them were hard, some of them were easy, but they've changed the way that you look at the world and the way that you are.

So there's sometimes a bit of a disconnect, or there can be, and that can lead to you not feeling comfortable about talking necessarily about where you've been and what you've been doing. Because in some, when you come back to tall poppy syndrome, you can seem like you're boasting and, you know, everywhere else is better than New Zealand. In fact, from your point of view, you're just sharing what you've been up to for the last few years. Sure. There's no judgment in it.

But, you know, you sort of have to feel a little bit closed down sometimes about being able to talk about those sorts of things. Professionally, we see a lot of returning Kiwis who've actually changed careers while they've been overseas. So they come back to New Zealand and their network in New Zealand isn't relevant anymore. So they have to re-establish themselves in their own country, which is kind of weird professionally. And then even if you are in the same country,

field, you have probably risen up the ranks or you've got experience that's different to New Zealanders, but you're coming back in

into a bit of a void. You know, you're a master of your universe in the UK or wherever you were, and you knew a lot of people and people respected you, whereas here you're coming back, you know you can do this job, but people in New Zealand are going, who are you? I haven't seen you for a while, what have you been doing? So it's kind of a little bit soul-destroying sometimes to be in that situation. And even other things that I notice are both a challenge and an opportunity for people too when they return is that

And they can feel inadequate about it. It's the change in New Zealand, particularly the greater prevalence of Maori culture in the workplace, including using te reo, so greater understanding of te ao Maori, the Maori world. And that's wonderful for those of us who are here. And for me, it feels very enriching. But I see for Kiwis coming back, they suddenly think, oh, gosh, you know, I've got to come up to speed with this. You know, New Zealand's moved on while you've been away as well. Yeah, exactly. That's the...

Second thing, and then the third thing I think is change in people's time in life. As I alluded to before in my own story, you know, a lot of people have gone away with the backpack.

And come back 10 years later. With family. Often with a partner who's not a New Zealander. Yeah. So, you know, you may be coming back to what you think is home, but that's not home for your partner. And if you've had children, they probably have been on holiday in New Zealand, but they don't know about the schooling system. I had a family the other day. They've been away for 20 years in the U.S.,

And the mum was saying to me, oh gosh, I'm so worried about the children. They're not going to know that in the US they call it, I think it's the canteen or whatever, where you go and get your lunch. In New Zealand, that's called the tuck shop. They have no idea. Yeah, they've got no idea about it. And as a New Zealand parent,

New Zealander coming home, that's kind of second nature, but you've got to remember it's not your children's home and not your partner's home. So helping the rest of your family adjust and all of those things I mentioned before about not knowing, you haven't sort of gradually worked through to get to that stage of your life in New Zealand. You're suddenly being parachuted in. You have to know everything about children's schools and the education system and, you know, maternity care and everything.

Kiwi savor, you know, all those things. Yeah, can be very stressful. Yeah, yeah, and just a lot, you know, it's a lot to do. And I do think there's sometimes this feeling, oh, I'm going home, you know, I'm going back to somewhere I know. And it's a different, you really have to treat it in the same way as you treat it as when you move to a new country. The same amount of research, expect the same difficulties, experience.

and some different difficulties as well. It's not just like you're slotting straight back in to where you were before. So regarding your personal stories, what's your children's reaction when they move back to New Zealand? Are they quite adapted to the Kiwi ways or do they also have a lot of challenges in school? Interestingly, my children were quite young. My daughter was four and my son was 18 months. So 18 months. He really actually, we had...

When we lived in Singapore, we had a helper at home who was like the children's grandmother. And he wasn't a super early talker, but after we came back to New Zealand, he was wandering around the house calling her name out in New Zealand. So that was kind of like, oh, so sad. It's like going overseas and leaving your grandmother in New Zealand, but it's the other way around. And we talked to her on Zoom and he's still quite close to her.

But my daughter, really interestingly, she came back. She went into preschool and she found that a little bit hard. I think, you know, even at that age, she's a mummy. I don't have any friends. And then she started saying to me, because we had been in Singapore and we lived...

She'd never eaten McDonald's. Her normal takeaway was sushi. We ate Chinese food most of the time, and she was surrounded by a very sort of Chinese environment. And she said to me one day, Mummy, I am a little bit Chinese, aren't I? And I thought, gosh, you know, that's all visually and culturally that's what she's grown up with, and she still has that little – she felt –

you know, that she almost, New Zealand was not familiar to her. Even though she'd been here on holiday, it was a holiday place. And even at the age of four to, you know, to be sensing that. Wow. And I think, I see it as a positive, and I can talk about this a bit later, but, you know, I'm very interested in the whole third culture kid phenomenon. And I see it play, and to be fair, she, we still eat a lot of Chinese-based food at home, even now. That's just because I lived overseas for so long, it's just normal for us to do that.

So there are certain elements of the culture that she was born into at a reasonably superficial level that she's still sort of connected with. But also it's been really interesting observing her friendships and relationships. She has a really close group of friends that she's made at school who are all first generation New Zealanders.

And she, you know, has been on holiday with one of them, one family who still has extended family in China, and they're very close to us. You know, so she's sort of carried that thread through her life somehow, which I think is an incredibly positive thing for her to have. It's an experience that other New Zealand kids don't have. Yeah. Yeah.

That's great. Does she have any thoughts to move overseas or she wants to stay in New Zealand? Ever since she was at, she's at university now, she wants to live in Hong Kong. She loves Hong Kong. She's been there a couple of times. That's cool. We had a brief chat about the MIQ system because this is the number one barriers for Kiwis return home.

So what's your thoughts on the MIQ system? Would you give me a brief introduction of this and how do you think we can better improve this system to help Kiwis and other global talents to come back to New Zealand? Yeah, well, I think that my view on MIQ is that it was only ever going to be a temporary solution. And, you know, in COVID terms, temporary has been, you know,

18 months now. But, you know, we will move to a point where we don't need it anymore. And that's starting to happen already in the sense that, you know, we have a Delta out back in New Zealand and the government actually needs those MIQ rooms to isolate people who have Delta as opposed to people who are coming into New Zealand, most of whom don't

have COVID at all. You know, they're tested before they leave. And then by the time they've isolated, they definitely don't, you know, have COVID. It's the minority of cases that slip through. So they've already announced that as of early next year, Kiwis will have a reduced requirement for MIQ or will be able to home isolate. And there'll be an announcement coming in more detail about that this week. So, you know, hopefully that's some

relief on the horizon for returning Kiwis. And they'd also foreshadowed prior to that, that they would be moving to a system where if you come from a low risk country, if you're vaccinated, and if you pre-departure test negative, then it will be quarantine free travel to New Zealand. So that would be for everybody. So that will happen. It's not going to happen tomorrow, but that was supposed to be rolled out next year. So, you know, the situation is changing.

Now, having said that, we have a very large number of both expats and returning Kiwi clients at the moment who are involved in the MIQ lottery. And in fact, before this call, I was just talking to one guy who, you know, has been in it. He's been in every round now. He's got a job back in New Zealand, just can't get through.

And he was up at 2 a.m. in the morning and he was in the U.K. on the last one trying to get a spot. And it's incredibly stressful. And he said to me, look, I need to give three months resignation notice for my job, which I can't do because I don't know when I'm coming. So, you know, it involves a whole lot of contingent work.

which then all build up and become very, very stressful for people. So it's not an easy situation. And then there's also the emotional struggle for people who are intending to stay overseas but, you know, who just want to get back and see and reconnect with their family after, you know, a minimum of two years away because that's pretty much how long it's been at the moment. Yeah. And really, you know, this is not necessarily a solution but the way that we suggest people look at it is –

sort of get a piece of paper, write down two columns, what I can control, what I can't control. And sadly, MIQ, the policy, is one thing that you can't control. You know, no matter how much we complain about it and feel sad about it, because it's a mixture of both, the two things go together, at the end of the day, the decisions in New Zealand, and this is probably not so transparent overseas, but the decisions in New Zealand are so...

heavily being driven by health concerns. You know, that can seem very doctrinaire when you're sitting outside New Zealand trying to get into MIQ. But until the health situation changes, the MIQ situation doesn't change. So that's what's starting to roll out next year when the health situation changes. What we try to do with people is, okay, you can't control the MIQ situation. What can you control? Using this time really well. And again, I'll just, this call I was on prior to this one,

I work through with them what they're going to do about their shipping, planning currency transfers, a whole raft of different things that they can all be setting up and organising now so that when they get the MIQ, which is the uncontrollable bit, all of that stuff is ready to go, push the buttons and off you go. Because otherwise, and I've seen this with other clients where they don't do that, suddenly you've got your MIQ spot, and I'm thinking of one client in particular, selling the house right

organising the currency prints, finalising the pet shipment, everything, all at the same time. And then you really fell out of control. So it's a matter of working on what you can work on and recognising there are some things which are really distressing that you can't control right now. Do you have any other case studies helping

companies in New Zealand helping their talent relocate to New Zealand? Because I know New Zealand is a very attractive place for global talents. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, our clients are the best employers from my perspective, so I can't talk highly enough about what they do because, you know, by employing us, they're recognising that expat talent, you know, it is complicated coming to New Zealand. It's not just turning up for the job and bringing your amazing skills and sitting down.

And one client I would talk about in particular, they started a recruitment drive, ironically, just before COVID hit. So we had probably 15 people in the pipeline, some of whom were literally about to get on the plane when the New Zealand border closed. So their shipment was on the water to New Zealand and

They had sold their house. They had a small child, so they had to move in with extended family. They were in the US. And we didn't get them here until October last year. So it took them a year to get here. It took them a long time to get here. But during that time period...

and the employer were constantly supporting them. So we brought in, we have an expat wellbeing expert, Dr Sonia Yeager, that we work with. So we did our, and there was this whole cohort. That person was in the worst situation. Others were just sort of in the, you

you know, partway through the process, but everybody was meant to be in New Zealand and they weren't, you know, the COVID period. So we brought in our expat wellbeing specialist and we did a series of workshops with them to talk through some of the things that like focusing what you can control and what you can't control. Um,

Logistically, we worked with them because early on, you know, it was incredibly unreliable even booking flights. Flights were cancelled to New Zealand and there still are flights online. And that's a warning I would make to Kiwis. Please use a travel agent because there are still flights advertised online that don't exist. You book them, you'll pay for them, and then you'll be told,

a little while beforehand, oh, sorry, that flight's scheduled to restart in 2024 or something, and then you have to get your money back. If you use a travel agent, at least you have, they know which flights exist and they will deal with any issues that come up. So, yeah, I'm supporting them with, early on, people didn't realise that. So we got a really good travel provider on board and just,

if you divide them into the two buckets of what you can and what you can't control, providing the employers who provided people with emotional support and logistical support helped keep them on track, you know, while they were going through this terrible period. And one really interesting thing I've noticed is that

you know, those employers who stuck with their candidates through this worst period are still employing offshore now. And that's great. And they were great employers anyway, as are all of the people who work with us. But the other thing I've noticed really in the last couple of months, actually, is we're getting, we're incredibly busy because we're

I think that the awareness amongst employers of the whole experience of an expat moving to New Zealand is heightened because of COVID. People, you know, they're hearing about the difficulties with the MIQ. They're hearing about the flight cancellations. They know that the price of shipping has increased because that's affecting everybody's Christmas presents. You know, our supply chain is not just...

When it was just about an expat shipping a container of stuff to New Zealand, they put that out of their mind. That was just something that had to be dealt with. But now the supply chain problems which are causing increases for expats shipping stuff to New Zealand are also causing price increases for anything that's coming to New Zealand. So suddenly the expat experience of moving here has become a lot more real for New Zealand businesses. So we're getting calls from...

people out of the blue saying, you know, I've heard about you. We've got this really important person. We need to get into the country, you know, help us to get them here and make their expected positive ones so that they can perform at work. You know, if we put it

that's really what the employer's bottom line interest is, that they recognise that the person's wellbeing has to be in place so that they can turn up for the job and deliver what they need to deliver. You know, at the moment, there's a trending of remote walking. So many companies...

don't need their employee to come to New Zealand or come to their headquarters. So what's your thoughts on the future of work? Do you think the remote working will become a mainstream? Yes and no is the answer to that question. What I have observed, and some of our clients where people were stuck offshore, the corporates have actually started them working remotely before they were able to get to New Zealand.

And in none of those cases has it been a long-term solution. And in none of those cases has it been ideal for a couple of reasons. One is because of the time zone differences. And New Zealand's probably uniquely difficult in that sense. And, you know, once you get beyond about Singapore, it gets really complicated. You know, West Coast is all right.

But, you know, anywhere else gets hard. You can actually. And also the, and then that causes a lot of social dislocation with people and their families. We had one person in Turkey who was working for a New Zealand company. So she worked all night, didn't even see her husband and her children during the day. You can't do that forever. And the other aspect of it too was that the work, they couldn't really get into New Zealand work culture anymore.

Everybody did their best, but without actually physically being with people, it was really hard. And I'm talking about new hires. Where I think it has been more successful is where existing relationships were in place already. So team members had already met each other. Perhaps they'd spent time in New Zealand and they were working off a foundation of a strong relationship.

personal and work relationship and understanding of New Zealand work culture. And in that situation, it's been doable. Whether that's going to be the case long term, I don't know. Interestingly, what we are seeing in New Zealand, if you talk about domestic remote working, is that a lot of companies have now gone to a hybrid model. So three days home, two days office or vice versa around the city in Auckland and other cities or even around New Zealand.

I know a number of people who've remoted themselves to different cities in New Zealand, you know, and they might be committed to coming back for a week or something. So that sort of hybrid model seems to be something that is resonating and being successful. Yeah. What's unique about a Kiwi working environment, working culture? I think it's...

Not so much about what's unique about New Zealand, it's what's unique about any working culture. I mean, wherever you go, you need to kind of get into the minds and the perspectives of the people that you're working with to understand why they are behaving and what they're doing, you know.

in that way and see, you know, there's that below the iceberg term. You know, what a person behaves and the way they seem to you is only the top of it and underneath that is probably another two-thirds of sort of cultural background, personality, all sorts of different things. Sure.

So in any culture, whether it's New Zealand work culture or another, there will be things that are different, different names for things. New Zealanders use a lot of slang. We talk very quickly, so it's sort of communication. I mean, there has been research done which indicates that New Zealand is a low status and...

low status work culture so hierarchies are not important in the way that they are in other countries quite flat, egalitarian which kind of matches our society and this is not in every case but broadly speaking that's one aspect of it and then the other aspect is that

Again, compared to other societies, New Zealanders expect a high degree of initiative in workplaces. So, you know, it's okay to put your hand up and say, oh, you know, I think we should do it this way. Or people don't wait for instructions all the time. And often employers will give you a broad directive and speak to you to go off and do it and then come back and ask questions.

if you've got any questions, they're not going to give you a rigid framework that you must do it this way. So that's quite confronting for people who come from cultures where it's not like that. You know, they will be a bit bewildered about how am I meant to operate here? And then on the flip side, you know,

and the thing about understanding Kiwi culture, I think, is it's got to be a two-way thing. And this is where I think we have a big problem in New Zealand is that we expect everybody to come in here and do it the New Zealand way. We don't necessarily know what the New Zealand way, you know, I studied it so I can articulate it, but a lot of Kiwis are like, this is just the way we operate. And all that person, they've got no initiative, you know, they've just got no initiative. And,

That's not that they've got no initiative, it's just not the way they're used to working and you need to explain to them this is how we work and give them permission and support them to operate in that way and then they'll get it and then they'll do it. It's not that they don't have initiative. So a successful cross-cultural workplace is one where

the receivers and the incomers, whatever you want to call it, that both sides are making an effort to understand each other and educate each other. Otherwise, it doesn't work. You know, the burden can't all be on one side. Yeah, exactly. Because I used to work in China and when I got my job in New Zealand, I do feel the differences between these two cultures. But I do love Kiwi's DIY spirit.

Because all my roles are newly created roles. So I got a lot of flexibility to create my own working space and initiatives, which is great. And my managers, even the CMO, they are all very supportive. So there is no hierarchy at all.

So I can talk to Sam whenever I want. So that's very nice. But in China, you know, you need to obey the authority. You can't debate with the authority. That's very interesting. Yeah. And I think, you know, for you, particularly Camilla having, you know, worked a little bit with you when you were in New Zealand, that enabled you to bring your whole

talent skill set connections in the Chinese digital space to huge benefit for your employer you know that they were prepared to let you have that leeway you were very valuable to them for that yeah it was a win-win yeah I agree yeah

So through all the talents, global talents you worked with, what are their top three things about New Zealand they enjoy most? There's quite a lot of research on this about why HSBC does a really good annual survey on just about every country in the world, why expats go to those countries. And for New Zealand, money and career are normally like the bottom as opposed to something like New York or the UK. Okay.

And lifestyle and work balance are at the top.

That's really, and I see that with a lot of my expat clients. And I think this is also, a lot of my clients, I would say also amongst the most successful ones who come to New Zealand, that's their expectation. They don't arrive here and are disappointed about how much money they're earning or the status of their job. They have made a deliberate trade-off

to be in this country, you know, often for the sake of their family. Sometimes it's politics. They're unhappy with the politics from where they've come and they want to be, you know, in this environment. And the other thing too is the sort of the natural environment is important to a lot of people. Easy access to the outdoors and the kind of lifestyle that we live.

enjoy here. So that's a sort of a first bundle of things, I guess, which is sort of, you know, lifestyle over money, fame and fortune. And then the other aspect too, is people often come for their children's sake. They see New Zealand as, and this is returning Kiwis and expats, they see growing up in New Zealand as something that they, an experience they want to have for their children. They value that.

Yeah, so that sort of family piece is quite important. And then beyond that, I don't know, why did you come to New Zealand Community? Can I ask you? Yeah, sure. I was an exchange student before. So I did my one year exchanging student program. But after one year, I said, I want to stay here.

Because I love outdoors. I love all the hiking, all the sceneries. New Zealand is the perfect place for me. Then I got the job offer from Air New Zealand, which was brilliant. So yeah, I stayed and lived almost 10 years before I moved to the UK. You've sparked the other third point that I was grappling for, which is adventure. People come here for adventure. You know, they know that New Zealand is the end of the world. Yeah.

And they kind of like that. Yeah. You know, they want to come here and experience this really novel place. And then interestingly, you know, you've pointed out, you've kind of came to some of those other things I mentioned around the lifestyle, you know, through being in New Zealand. But you must have felt a little bit adventurous coming here. Yeah. I did skydiving, bungee jumping, handmade diving, scuba diving classes. Yeah. I love it. You're more adventurous than me. Yeah.

And I'm like a New Zealand ambassador. Every time I go overseas, I just say, oh, the food and the scenery, you must go there. Because a lot of Lord of the Rings and Hobbit fans, they've never been to New Zealand, but they've already climbed the seas in their mind. Yeah, one day I want to go. I haven't heard any bad things about New Zealand overseas. Everybody knows, oh, you're from New Zealand, you're Kiwi. They're all so happy. The reputation is great. Yeah.

Yeah, that's right. Actually, you've raised an interesting point there because that is a bit of a double-edged sword because people do come here expecting it to be paradise, but no place is paradise. I had one client the other day say to me that they're offshore at the moment. They'd seen some media reporting about gangs in New Zealand and how bad were the gangs. And I said, well, yeah, we do have gangs. Everywhere, yes. It's not a perfect place.

you know, come here with your eyes open, realising there'll be good things and bad things and tough things and there will be a period of,

either reverse culture shock or culture shock where you'll think, oh, my God, what have I done? Everything's too hard. Everything's too different. You know, but you will come out of that. You'll figure out, you know, some things about New Zealand will probably always annoy me. There are things about New Zealand that annoy me. You know, then there are other great things about New Zealand and there are other great things about other countries. And, you know, most expats who come here, and I think it's really important to still, you don't throw away your home country and your home culture. You still...

you know, have ties to that, whether it's family or friends or just some sort of feeling,

I don't expect anybody to throw away their past, but you have two homes and there are good things about where you are now, there are good things about where you were before, and live your life, enjoy it. Yeah, can I be honest with you? When I first came to New Zealand, the Kiwi accent drove me crazy. Yeah, but now I just love it and miss it a lot. Yeah.

That's right. I mean, it's really hard when you come to a new place. And I think that's another disconcerting thing about New Zealand. People come here thinking they – well, knowing they speak English, but they don't understand New Zealanders. And that's not a commentary on –

people coming here. It's just that, you know, we do, we speak very quickly, we have an unusual accent and we use a lot of terminology that's not used anywhere else in the world. So, you know, that's quite disconcerting for people sometimes and really stressful and tiring because you've arrived in this place and it's really difficult to understand, let alone figure anything out. Yeah.

So have you ever dealt with some negative attitudes from the local people towards the immigrants? I mean, I know that it exists.

out there, definitely. And I think it's come to the surface a little bit with some of the attitudes towards returning Kiwis as well, to be honest with you. Yeah, I don't... I find it really difficult to discuss it personally because I actually find it very distressing. You know, and the Christchurch mosque attack was just devastating for me personally because I've lived in very diverse communities and I have Muslim friends and, you know, that's just not the way that I see the world. But I think...

that there are people in New Zealand who don't have the benefit of the broad experience that I have, and in fact that many migrants coming to New Zealand have, you know, and they feel threatened and threatened

unwilling to see different people's perspectives. I'm hopeful and optimistic that that will change for two reasons. One, because Māori culture has become obvious. It's no longer being marginalised and sidelined as much as it was before. So, you know, even we need to sort of set our own home in order a bit first, understand the two main cultures by number in New Zealand at the moment.

That will help understanding of broader perspectives. And then hopefully over time, and I see it actually is happening through the school system. I know some of our clients' children get bullied when they come to New Zealand. You know, why is your skin a different colour, et cetera. But on the other hand, I also see the diversity in those classrooms and the way the teachers facilitate understanding between the children. And with my own children, you know, they just grow up

with whoever is their friend is their friend. It's definitely there and it's uncomfortable for me and I hope it's going to change. Yeah, I see. So what made you come back to New Zealand, may I ask? Yeah, well, we sort of got to a point where living in Singapore, really loved living there, lots of great friends and very happy. But we just sort of got this feeling that we wanted to come back

and spend some time in New Zealand, which is kind of counter, you know, before I'd always been, let's go out and have more adventures. And to be honest with you, came back to New Zealand and it was great, enjoyed living here. I always sort of had in the back of my mind, I'd go, we'd go away again. And we sort of just haven't done that. So I think, oh, maybe I'll do it now. Who knows, after COVID. I think there was sort of a, you know, perhaps it was having children a little bit. Yeah, but I certainly haven't,

My friends joke with me, I think there's always a part of me that wants to be connected internationally. My friends joke that I set up this company so that I could hang out with expats. And there's a certain amount of truth to that because I enjoy every conversation I have with our clients, you know, just learning about their world, where they come from, how they see New Zealand, you know, how I can help them settle in here better. So, yeah, I think that's an important part of me is always having that

with cultures that are not my own. So you mentioned the third culture kids before. So do you think they will feel lonely and they will have some mental health issues

concerned if they move to the new country with their family that totally different from where they grow up. Yeah, I'm glad you've taken me back to that point because I should have mentioned that before when you asked me about sort of racism towards migrants in New Zealand. I think this is something that everybody needs to be aware of. You know, third culture kids are kids who are brought up in a country that's different to the culture of their parents.

And that can be a positive thing and a negative thing. If it's not acknowledged properly,

recognized, taken into account, it can cause difficulties for people's well-being and mental health because they can grow up not knowing where they belong. They feel like an outsider in, say, New Zealand because, you know, they may look different. They may have to have a different culture at home with their family and then hide all that when they're at school. They may go back to what is their parents' home country on a holiday or something and they don't fit in there either because they speak with a Kiwi accent.

You know, they haven't grown up with their cousins, etc. So they sort of left nowhere. That's the negative side of it. Lack of belonging is one of the key sort of characteristics. But I also think there's a, well, I know the research shows there's a huge positive to it because these kids are incredibly open-minded. They're culturally agile because even on a daily basis, they're switching languages the minute they walk in the door at home sometimes.

The foods change, the way of operating, you know, the cultural mores, you know, in a Chinese household, you know, the hierarchy of the family is probably more important than respect for the elders. Whereas you go into a New Zealand school environment, you might be calling an older teacher by their Christian name. So they're switching between all these worlds. And this is exactly the type of characteristics that the business world in particular, and I think the future of our politics is,

wants and needs. So I feel really strongly that parents and kids need to talk about what third culture kids are and the parents need to celebrate. Although it's hard for parents sometimes because they feel, you know, that their children are losing their culture. It's not that they're losing so much as they've become incredibly agile in both. And it doesn't add up. One of my daughter's friends said,

recently said to me, you know, I now see myself as a Chinese New Zealander and I could just see the confidence in her had just blossomed because she's an amazing young woman. But she was always, I could see she was always sort of trying to fit in at school and she's just, that's me now, you know, and she speaks Mandarin, she speaks Spanish as well. She's a good linguist. She's incredibly talented. So anyway, diversion off there. But, you know, so she's an example of a child who's embraced that or a young woman now who's embraced that

And then also the school system in New Zealand needs to be saying to these kids not, oh, go off to the ESL, the English as a Second Language class. Oh, no, don't dress like that at school. They need to be saying to these kids, in fact, you're the ones in our class who can help the other kids see different perspectives. Maybe the teacher could be asking you about things that they don't know about.

and building these kids up because they are the future of New Zealand, really, you know, in numbers, but also in terms of, you know, building on our traditional strengths of the DIY and the number eight wire and all of that. It's kind of building that into a cultural realm and bringing more ideas and innovation into New Zealand through the different perspectives. I mean, that's really what diversity is all about. But diversity, you know, I think in New Zealand with the opportunity for it to start growing

in schools and with kids, which is really quite an amazing opportunity as opposed to parachuting people in. I'm all for third culture kids and I think it should be seen as much as possible as a positive opportunity

not downplaying the negatives of it, but yeah, I just think you tell your own story about who you are, don't you? And recognizing some parts of your story are a bit difficult, but there are lots of positive parts to that story too. It's not all just that you don't fit in. Yeah, exactly. I don't belong to third culture kid, but I do consider myself like third culture adult.

So I normally tell people, I'm a Chiwi, Chinese Kiwi. I'm proud of that. Yeah, the research started off with third culture kids, but as time, it was, I think it was done in the 19, when the book was published, Ruth Van Recken did sort of the 1970s and 80s. So obviously that generation's grown up now. So yes, there's a whole more body of work on third culture kids, third culture adults, sorry, as the kids have grown into adults. And also what's now called cross-culture kids, which is more the children of migrants

because third culture kids are often children who are quite transient across a number of different countries. But a lot of the concerns and also the benefits are the same. So if you could change one policy, will make your job easier, what would that be? Well, right now, to have more expats coming into New Zealand, because it would just be fun. We'd have even more clients than we have now. And in terms of policies, yeah, I don't know, really. I mean, obviously...

The whole COVID thing would be better to get that solved sooner rather than later so we wouldn't have to have MIQ. But, you know, I'm a realist again, what I can control and what I can't control. I think the recent move by the government to...

all of the people who were in the huge long residence queue in New Zealand with residence visas has been amazingly positive. And that's been good for me, not just because I've seen some of our clients have a huge weight taken off their shoulders, but it also re-establishes New Zealand's sort of profile in the world as quite a humane country because that was really tough, you know, what some of those people were going through. I suppose it's...

It's not so much a policy, but what I would really like to see happen is that even more businesses in New Zealand realise that diversity is not just about diversity.

getting different people who look different and come from different countries and have different sets of talents and plonking them into your business. It's really about understanding what they need to be successful. And, you know, we can plug into helping the resettlement piece because that is essential. You know, if you think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, at the bottom of that is food, shelter and clothing. And that's at its most basic level what we do. We get them set up in New Zealand, you know,

so that they can move to the next level, which is belonging and connecting after they've got the basics of security and food and shelter and clothing sorted out, then they start to connect. And that's when they start to be useful to a business because they're operating in your space, connecting with people, sharing their knowledge.

So to have a broader appreciation of what it actually takes for expat employees to be successful in New Zealand, I think would be the best thing that could happen. That's not something the government can legislate for. That's my challenge really to the business community. And I guess also to all returning Kiwis and expats who find themselves in positions of power in the New Zealand business community to be saying to their organisations, look,

Maybe based on my personal experience, we should be looking at doing things a bit differently to get the best out of this expat talent that is going to be coming into New Zealand for years to come. We're never going to be able to train enough people quickly enough here. It's part of our future. So let's make it work really well for everybody. Yeah, good.

So last question, what do you get most excited about the future? Oh, you mean in the expat land? In your personal life. Oh, my personal life. Oh, probably being able to travel again. I'm really looking forward to that. Yeah. And continuing to, for our business, just as I say, being able to do more work

to help more businesses be successful with their international talent and also to be able, personally, to be able to sort of make a difference in people's lives because, you know, we have a team of 17 who work throughout New Zealand and I would say that really is probably one of the key drivers for all of us is that we can see the difference that we make to people, you know,

when they come to New Zealand and work with us on one of the resettlement programs and their life and their path is smoother and they can achieve what they want to achieve in New Zealand. You know, and that's very rewarding for them and for us to be walking alongside them on that journey. Mm.

So where can people find you if they want to know more about your work and your company? Sure. No, I'd love to connect with anybody who's keen to know more. Probably the easiest place is on LinkedIn, Bridget Romain. So my name will be around on your podcast.

Or if you'd like to look at our website, www.mobile-relocation.com. Now on our website, we've got a whole section called Move to New Zealand Resources. So you can have a look through that. There's all sorts of information there. And we've also got a really amazing downloadable, free downloadable checklist, which is a bit different to checklists you'll find in other places about moving to New Zealand because it covers everything from logistics to emotional issues to practical issues and

So, you know, you can go through that. Some of it you can be able to tick off already. Other bits you'll think, oh, hadn't thought about that. Better focus on that too. So, yeah, there's lots of resources there available to you. And if you want to talk to me personally, just connect on LinkedIn and we can set up a time to talk. That's great. I'll include them into the show notes so people can find you.

Great. Thank you so much, Bridget. It's always a pleasure talking with you. Lovely to speak to you too. And I'm very envious of where you are now, but I do hope you might come and see us in New Zealand sometime when it's easier. Yeah, next year. See you next year.