Courage is Contagious: Mike & Tommy
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Hello, hello. Before we get on with our show, I want you to know that your Pushkin Plus subscription grants you early access to Medal of Honor episodes one week before they're released to the public. That's one week of exclusive access. If you want to listen to more episodes a week before they're widely available, sign up for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts or by visiting pushkin.fm slash plus. Now, on to the episode.

It was the fall of 1972, the waning days of the Vietnam War. American troops had been sent home, leaving the South Vietnamese to keep fighting on their own. President Richard Nixon called this policy "Vietnamization." We can continue our program of withdrawing American forces without detriment to our overall goal of ensuring South Vietnam's survival as an independent country.

There were fewer than 20 Navy SEALs left in the country by that point. They were there to, quote-unquote, advise the South Vietnamese military. In reality, the SEALs were running missions at the front lines and sometimes dangerously behind them. On October 30th, Petty Officer Michael Thornton was about to set out on one of those missions.

Thornton's hometown was Spartanburg, South Carolina. He was 6'2", thickly muscled, with a reputation for carrying twice the loads of ammunition as other guys. Long sideburns, a cleft chin, and an Elvis pout. His fellow SEALs called him the Mighty Thor. At 17, he had been given the choice between reform school and the military. He chose the military.

With him that night in October was Lieutenant Thomas Norris. Tommy Norris was 28, a seasoned officer. He cast a completely different shadow than Mike Thornton. He was fine-boned and wiry, 5'6", 120 pounds soaking wet, a high school wrestling champion back home in Maryland. His nickname was Nasty Norris. There was nobody tougher. The two SEALs knew each other even though they'd never been on a mission together before. There were so few SEALs left that they all knew each other.

When Tommy was asked to choose one other SEAL to accompany him on a scouting mission, he chose Mike, the mighty Thor, and nasty Norris. They were meant to investigate a naval base that had been taken just a few months earlier by the North Vietnamese Army during its relentless southward march. The SEALs knew they were entering dangerous territory, so they planned to do their reconnaissance under cover of darkness.

A Navy ship got them close, then a dinghy closer. And finally, Tommy, Mike, and three South Vietnamese Navy men dropped over the sides into the South China Sea and swam silently to shore. Everything that could go wrong was about to go wrong. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, and this is Medal of Honor, Stories of Courage.

The Medal of Honor is the highest military decoration in the United States, awarded for gallantry and bravery in combat at the risk of life above and beyond the call of duty. The Medal of Honor was established in 1861 at the outset of the Civil War. There have been 3,517 people awarded the medal since.

Each candidate must be approved all the way up the chain of command, from the supervisory officer on the field to the highest office in our nation. It's not just approved by the Secretary of Defense. It has to be agreed to by the president. This show is about those heroes, what they did, what it meant, and what their stories tell us about the nature of courage. And this episode is about what happened on Halloween 1972.

It was 1 a.m. The five soldiers reached the shore. They were looking for an enemy-occupied naval base on the southernmost outskirts of North Vietnamese territory, a place the North Vietnamese Army, they referred to them as the NVA, would have just started to settle down in. But something seemed off.

From what they could tell in the moonlight, this was not some newly settled encampment. Later, Mike Thornton would remember how he felt in that moment when he realized they'd been dropped off miles north of their intended target. We're walking through areas that had been no way in hell they could have built all this stuff up in two months. So right then we knew we were way north. Listen to his tone, by the way. He sounds like he's describing how he went to the grocery store and realized he forgot his shopping list at home.

Mike saw bunkers the size of hotel buildings, weapons, soldiers sleeping on mats on the ground. They'd been dropped on top of a major North Vietnamese army installation.

The SEALs crept along in a line, hunched over so as not to be spotted. Tommy was at the front. Mike was at the rear. Between them were the three South Vietnamese Navy men. Mike had gone on previous missions with two of them, Deng and Quan, and hand-picked them for that night. Both of them were confident, seasoned in combat, and unflappable in the face of danger. Mike liked and trusted them both.

Third was a young and inexperienced officer, Lieutenant Ty. Mike kept creeping up to Tommy to check if Tommy was seeing what he was seeing. They had tanks and gun emplacements. They had guys with big bonfires, so we knew they were afraid of, you know, letting them know who they were. And I'm bent down as false. I say, Tommy, you see this? Yeah.

By the time they confirmed their suspicions, they were five miles from where they dropped in. It would be light soon. There was no chance they could get back to sea before daylight came. So Tommy decided that their best hope for survival would be to return to the beach, hide out between the dunes, radio for help, and wait for night to fall again. Once it was dark, they'd swim back out to sea and be extracted. Silently, stealthily, they worked their way back to the beach. They waded through a stream in waist-high water all the way.

We could move much faster in the water, and we wouldn't have to worry about stumbling over somebody sleeping, because we could hear a guy snore, and it was unbelievable. Once they made it to the beach, the five men split up and hid behind two large dunes. There was a lagoon to one side, a wide swath of open sand to the other. The sun was rising, and they settled into the long wait for darkness. But then they saw two North Vietnamese on patrol.

They knew they needed to capture or kill them. Discovery would be catastrophic. Mike crept up behind one and cold-cocked him.

Quan tied him up, gagged him, and dragged him out of sight. Mike silently signaled to Lieutenant Tide to eliminate the other one. But instead, Tide called out to the soldier and ordered him to stop. He didn't stop. And that guy had an AK-47. He was about 300 yards away, and he opened fire upon Tide. Tide jumped down and started running back towards me. So he's running back towards me, and I'm running past him because I'm trying to get this guy because we could see that he was heading for the village.

The North Vietnamese soldier was running back to where he came from, firing off shots to alert everyone to the situation at the dunes. Mike was in pursuit. So I'm hauling can and I stopped on one knee, took two breaths and cranked off two rounds. I hit him in the back and the guy fell. But when I looked up, there was a quick reaction force come with the village with about 50 guys. You can picture it, right? A huge group of men descending on Mike. Mike knew he had only one option.

Run. So I turned around, started running back. Tommy sees me running back, and here's all these bullets going off, and he doesn't see me shooting, so he knew like hell that we were in a world of trouble. A world of trouble. That's where Medal of Honor stories are made. In the places where the odds are so long and the risk is so great that it will take an act of extreme bravery for anyone to survive. But where does that bravery come from?

That's one of the questions that got me so obsessed with Medal of Honor stories. Because I think sometimes we just assume that courage is a trait, something you're born with. And that what happens in moments, like on that Vietnam beach, is that we suddenly learn who has it and who doesn't. One of the things that happens when you listen to enough Medal of Honor stories is that you begin to realize that courage is not a birthright. It's a choice.

Mike was being chased by a mass of North Vietnamese soldiers. Tommy saw him hauling Can back towards the group and fired a rocket at a tree, exploding it and creating enough of a diversion so Mike could dive back into the dunes. It was total chaos. Because now they were being strafed with bullets, Tommy was desperately radioing for help. He needed a ship to send cover fire and drive the NVA back.

Two Navy warships wanted to come to their aid, but they didn't know where the SEALs were. Any help was hours away. It was a series of problems that would seem overwhelming to anyone. But Mike broke down the big problems into components. They were five against an entire encampment of NVA. But the NVA didn't know how many of them there were, right? So solution number one, make it look like there were 10 or 20 of them.

So Mike started impersonating an entire SEAL platoon. As soon as I saw the top of their head coming up, I'd take about an inch shot in the sand. I'd get a head shot every time. If I'd take a couple of shots like that, I'd roll over and come up in another position. They didn't know if we had 15 people in there or five. Mike keeps shooting, ducking and rolling for hours. And then someone threw a grenade over the top of the dune. And I just screamed out and I got hit six times and my back was frapping him.

You could hear Tommy yelling, Mike, buddy, Mike, buddy. He just saw me laying on my back. And I said, I didn't say a word. And about four guys came over and I was laying on my back and I eliminated all four of those guys. Two fell on my side. The two fell back. And Tommy was watching what was going on. Mike was on his back, expecting a surge of more North Vietnamese any moment now. They knew he was hit. But instead, the action just stopped. Tommy yelled down at me and said, they're falling back. We couldn't understand why they were falling back.

And they had lost a great number of their unit to do this. And I still don't think they ever knew exactly how many people we had. A silence descended on the beach. Everything went eerily still. The five men began to regroup, got cautiously hopeful. Had their strategy actually worked? No, it hadn't. Tommy said, while they're falling back, and I said, pointed across the lagoon, and we counted a great number of NVA men

coming from both sides around the lagoon. There were close to 100 North Vietnamese troops. They were now outnumbered 20 to 1. Tommy realized they needed a better position. He spied a dune in the distance that would give them a potential defense. The NVA would have to cross nearly a quarter of a mile of open sand to reach them there.

In theory, they could pick them off one by one, if they could hold on to the high ground for that long. Tommy decided that Mike, Quan, and Lieutenant Tai would run for the dune first. He and Dang would come after. The three started sprinting, crossing the 500 yards of sand to the new dune. So we fell back.

And while I was yelling, Tommy, fall back, fall back, and I could see, dang, and this was like 1 o'clock, 1.30 in the afternoon because the firefight had gone on for over five hours. He was running down the dune by himself, and he was running by himself. And I said, my grad student said, where's Tommy? He said, Mike Dow, he's dead. And I said, are you sure? He said, he was shot in the head, he's dead. Tommy, the leader of the team, was shot in the head and dead.

Mike trusted Deng. They'd been on missions together before. He'd hand-picked him for this one. Deng knew what he'd seen, and Mike had no reason not to believe him. The situation for the rest of them was getting more dangerous by the minute. The team was about to be surrounded by North Vietnamese soldiers. But SEALs have a core value. Leave no man behind. So Mike decided he would go and get Tommy, putting principle above self-preservation.

I said, stay here, I'll go back and get Tom. And Quan and Dane both grabbed me and held me. He said, no, Mike, you stay. And I said, no, I'm going back. Y'all stay here, you cover me. Mike ran back across the beach, back almost a quarter of a mile, directly into the gunfire. He reached Tommy just as five North Vietnamese soldiers did, and he shot them all. I picked Tommy up. He was shot through the left temple.

and the bullet had exited through his forehead, and the whole front lobe part of his front brain was gone. His cheekbone was gone. His eye socket was completely gone. And I thought he was dead. On some level, it didn't matter if Tommy was alive or dead. Mike knew he wasn't leaving that beach without him. We'll be right back. These powerful stories of those who helped protect our country are brought to you by LifeLock, the pioneer and leader in identity theft protection.

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So start protecting your identity today. Save up to 40% off your first year of LifeLock identity theft protection. Go to LifeLock.com slash metal to save 40% off. Terms apply. The most innovative companies are going further with T-Mobile for Business.

Tractor Supply trusts 5G solutions from T-Mobile. Together, we're connecting over 2,200 stores with 5G business internet, powering AI so team members can match shoppers with the products they need faster. Together with Delta, T-Mobile for Business is putting 5G into the hands of ground staff so they can better assist on-the-go travelers with real-time information.

By leveraging the nation's largest 5G network, Delta aims to improve operations across nearly every part of the journey, from check-in and boarding to departure, arrival, baggage handling, and beyond. Tractor Supply, Delta, and T-Mobile for Business are all passionate about connecting people and places while delivering exceptional customer experiences along the way. These partnerships are paving the way for unprecedented innovation.

Learn more about taking your business further by visiting t-mobile.com slash now. This is Malcolm Gladwell from Revisionist History. Hey, have you heard the news? Sauron has returned in season two of Lord of the Rings, the Rings of Power.

If you didn't see season one, you need to check it out. It's epic. And season two looks to build on that. If last season was all about the heroes, then this season is all about the villains. And I mean, who doesn't want to see the greatest villain of all time in action? So like I mentioned, Sauron is back. He's forging the rings of power. You get to see how powerful they really are. Nobody in Middle-earth is safe.

Okay, so I know a bunch of you have been counting down until this comes out, but really, this is a show anybody will love. If you love action, fantasy, or drama, you'll love Rings of Power. It's got it all, seriously. So don't miss any of the elf, wizard, or Harfoot fun. Season 2 of Lord of the Rings, The Rings of Power, premieres on August 29th, only on Prime Video. Here's why the story of that night on the beach is so interesting to me.

At this critical point, Mike Thornton, a supremely rational guy who talks about the most dramatic night of his life as if it's a trip to the grocery store, is making what seems like an unbelievably irrational decision. As he runs across the sand to Tommy Norris, he's being driven by something. What is it? You've probably heard the saying, courage is contagious. It's one of those bits of folk wisdom that turns out to be true.

Research has shown that seeing, or even just hearing about, an act of courage makes it more likely that you will be courageous yourself. The scientific term for that idea is prosocial contagion. When you witness kindness or heroism, two separate areas in your nervous system are activated. Your awareness is heightened. Your desire to protect others grows.

You catch your heroism from others. We see this all the time. One person holds a door open for the person behind them, and then suddenly a whole string of people are holding open the door as well. That's a small example. But think about the passengers on Flight 93 on 9/11. A group of terrified average people who made a collective decision to fight back against terrible odds. They inspired heroism in one another.

So what's driving Mike Thornton to make his totally bonkers decision to race across the beach? Something he knew about that happened in Vietnam six months before. That spring, an Air Force flight was shot down over North Vietnam, with one survivor left behind the front lines. He had top-secret intel, so the Air Force sent mission after mission to rescue him, each one a catastrophic failure. Men dying, aircraft destroyed.

Then a second pilot, one of the rescuers, got stranded behind enemy lines. Finally, the Air Force called in the Navy SEALs. The SEALs sent in one of their best. He snuck into heavily patrolled enemy territory and found one of the pilots. They got out alive, but barely. Then he went back for the second one. This time it was even more of a suicide mission. But the SEAL did it anyway, disguised as a fisherman paddling a canoe. And he succeeded.

Everyone in the SEALs knew that story, especially Mike Thornton, because the SEAL who rescued those two pilots was Tommy Norris. So when Mike raced across the beach to get his friend, his commanding officer, he was doing what he already knew Tommy had done himself and would do for anyone. Tommy's courage was contagious. Back to the firefight.

A naval destroyer has finally arrived to give them cover. Mike was running as fast as he could with Tommy on his shoulders as the ship started shelling the beach. I heard the first eight-inch round coming in and the concussion blew me almost 20 feet in the air and I looked at Tommy and he's flying off my shoulders.

Mike got blown sideways. He was dazed, stumbling. Tommy, of course, had already been shot in the head. Now he'd been tossed through the air by a shell from a Navy destroyer. If he wasn't dead before, he was certainly dead now. But once again, Mike chose to go back for him. I looked down, I saw my weapon, I saw Tommy's weapon, I saw Tommy over here, and I ran over, and he's laying on his back.

Tommy was alive. And Mike had to keep him alive. Mike looked to the faraway dune where Dang and Quan were still waiting, then back to Tommy.

Half his head's hanging out, you know, and I pick him up and I put him back on my shoulders and I started running. Dang and Kwan started shooting, giving them cover. Ty was gone. As he had watched Mike run to Tommy, the young lieutenant had given up hope, jumped in the water and swam away, deserting the firefight as a lost cause.

Their radio was shot to bits, useless. No more calling for help. The only option was to get off the beach and swim to safety. The Navy warships were far offshore, but maybe they could reach them. Anything was better than remaining on the beach. Mike, Quan, and Deng leapfrogged towards the surf, each one taking turns sprinting to the water as the other two covered him. They had almost no ammo left.

The North Vietnamese surrounded them on three sides. The team had nowhere to go but the ocean. By now, Mike had a bullet through his calf, and he was still carrying Tommy. We got to the beach, and I stumbled and fell, and Tommy rolled over like that. And I said, gosh, if they didn't kill him, I'm going to kill him, dropping him all this time.

There were swells four feet high. Mike tucked Tommy under his arm and dove in, pushing him underneath the waves to get him through the surf zone. And without me knowing about it, I was basically drowning Tommy. I felt him because he had been pretty quiet there a period of time, and he actually started hitting his hands that hit me in the back, and I looked down, and I had his head stuffed in the water. The shots kept coming from shore. The soldiers on the beach never stopped firing. As we swam through the surf zone, you could see the bullets coming

just going through the water, just like you do in the movie. You know, I was saying, good Lord, don't let him hit me now, God. Out past the breaking waves, the water was calm except for the sound of bullets splashing around them. Now Mike had to figure out just how he was going to stabilize Tommy. He took his life jacket and put it over Tommy's head as carefully as he possibly could so he wouldn't make the wound any worse.

He tied a line around him, securing Tommy to his back. He saw Dang out front of him swimming, another of his men accounted for. He was hopeful that Ty, the young lieutenant, was out there swimming too. He was worried about him, even though Ty had left them for dead. Then he spotted Quan floundering in the water. He was wounded and drowning. He was shot through his right hip and blew off his whole cheek of his butt, and he couldn't swim, so I grabbed him.

put it in front of me, and I had him wrap his arms around me like this. I had my arms underneath his arms, and he held on to Tommy. And I swam for approximately three, three and a half hours. So now Mike was holding two men. After a five-hour firefight, shrapnel in his back, bullet in his leg. He can't even see the boat he's meant to swim to, but he starts to swim.

You stay focused on the motion. You keep swimming. You never stop. You keep swimming. You just keep focused on what this will keep us alive. Tommy, tied to Mike's back, drifted in and out of consciousness, waking up only to ask if all the men were safe. Mike lied and said he had all of them, didn't mention the missing tie. Tommy got quieter and quieter, and Mike kept swimming.

He'd been keeping his eyes on the horizon, where he'd seen glimpses of the USS Newport News, the largest cruiser in that part of the South China Sea. He knew it had a medical team on board, which was a rarity since most of the American military had gone home. At the top of a swell, he saw the ship again, but it seemed to be sailing away. I was the worst sight I saw in my life. I saw a big boat turn around and start going seaward. It was enough to make the mighty Thor give up hope.

Later on, we found out a Florida Zeroplane had said there was nothing but a bunch of bodies on the beach and they thought we were dead. Mike watched the big ship retreat into the distance. Tommy was slipping away, but Mike just kept swimming. He's going in really deep shock. You could feel him just shaking on your back and there's not a damn thing you can do. Another hour passed. Mike and Tommy, Kwon and Deng, had been in the water for more than three hours. Then,

They saw a boat, a traditional sailing vessel called a junk, a type of boat that had been used by both sides in the war, friends and foe. I saw the junk out there, and I wasn't sure I was so tired that it was a Vietnamese junk or what. Mike used the last of his strength to signal the boat, and as it got closer, he discovered that not only was it safe, it had been looking for him.

It was one of two junks led by another Navy SEAL, Woody Woodruff, who, because he was a SEAL of course, had steadfastly refused to leave without finding the missing team, even as the bigger ships departed for safety. The crew pulled Kwan and Deng aboard, and then Mike carefully passed Tommy up. Mike was the last one out of the water. Lieutenant Tai had been found by the junks an hour before.

I called the Newport News. The Newport News turned around. We started steaming towards the Newport News and the junk. Woody met us there, and we rafted up to the Newport News, got Tommy up on the fantail. I picked Tommy up and took him down and put him on the gurney. Mike stayed with Tommy as long as he could until the doctors took over. The prognosis looked grim. In fact, it looked impossible. But the doctors were another kind of hero.

And there's a lieutenant commander doctor. And later on, we met the doctor again several years later that was on the Newport News. And he said, I swore to God that he would have never lived. Anyone would have given up Tommy Norris for dead when he'd been shot through the head. Or if somehow you missed that after he'd been blown sideways by a shell from a naval destroyer. Or when he'd soaked in the sea for hours after both those wounds. But somehow, he made it through.

He survived. With the grace of our God, my God, he's still with us. It wasn't just the heroics of Mike Thornton that saved Tommy Norris. It was Quan and Deng staying on the beach to give them cover. It was the persistence of Woody Woodruff, refusing to call off his search. It was the surgeons on the Newport News, and then the doctors who took over when Tommy was shipped home. And what started this chain reaction?

Tommy's own courage the previous April. That social contagion of a willingness to try improbable things. You can still hear that courage in Tommy's voice as he remembers the early days of surgery that turned into years in the hospital. The doctors even came in and said, we didn't think we were ever going to save you. He said, I don't know how, you know, you stayed alive and made it through. But he said, you just wouldn't give up. And, um,

I think that's part of what it was. You just have a determination not to give up. And my injury, when you see the death and destruction to other people that you see in war, I mean, what I have is nothing. So I lost an eye, part of my head and brain, and had some other bodily injuries. But what is that? I mean, I have another eye. He has another eye.

When you hear stories of courage or valor, it forces you to ask the question of yourself. What do I have within me? That's what Tommy's story did for Mike. It lifted him up. And then, in turn, Mike carried him home. These powerful stories of those who helped protect our country are brought to you by LifeLock, the pioneer and leader in identity theft protection.

Now you may think, I'm smart, I'm careful with my data, I don't need to worry. But the truth is, a lot of your personal information is in the control of others, like your doctor's office, your bank, your insurance provider. All it takes is one breach of any organization that has your info and you could become a victim of identity theft.

LifeLock is a leader in identity theft protection and empowers you to take control of your identity, alerting you to more uses of your personal information and fixing identity theft if it happens. Guaranteed. Or your money back. LifeLock offers extensive, proactive protection, and all plans include the LifeLock Million Dollar Protection Package.

So start protecting your identity today. Save up to 40% off your first year of LifeLock identity theft protection. Go to LifeLock.com slash metal to save 40% off. Terms apply. The most innovative companies are going further with T-Mobile for Business.

Tractor Supply trusts 5G solutions from T-Mobile. Together, we're connecting over 2,200 stores with 5G business internet, powering AI so team members can match shoppers with the products they need faster. Together with Delta, T-Mobile for Business is putting 5G into the hands of ground staff so they can better assist on-the-go travelers with real-time information.

By leveraging the nation's largest 5G network, Delta aims to improve operations across nearly every part of the journey, from check-in and boarding to departure, arrival, baggage handling, and beyond. Tractor Supply, Delta, and T-Mobile for Business are all passionate about connecting people and places while delivering exceptional customer experiences along the way. These partnerships are paving the way for unprecedented innovation.

Learn more about taking your business further by visiting T-Mobile.com slash now. This is Malcolm Gladwell from Revisionist History. Hey, have you heard the news? Sauron has returned in season two of Lord of the Rings, the Rings of Power.

If you didn't see season one, you need to check it out. It's epic. And season two looks to build on that. If last season was all about the heroes, then this season is all about the villains. And I mean, who doesn't want to see the greatest villain of all time in action? So like I mentioned, Sauron is back. He's forging the rings of power. You get to see how powerful they really are. Nobody in Middle-earth is safe.

Okay, so I know a bunch of you have been counting down until this comes out, but really, this is a show anybody will love. If you love action, fantasy, or drama, you'll love Rings of Power. It's got it all, seriously. So don't miss any of the elf, wizard, or Harfoot fun. Season 2 of Lord of the Rings, The Rings of Power, premieres on August 29th, only on Prime Video.

One day, a year later, in October of 1973, Mike Thornton decided to bust Tommy Norris out of the hospital against doctor's orders. It was an absurd thing to do. He had surgery the next day, but they were going to the White House because Mike had been awarded the Medal of Honor. I'll never forget that day. My mom and dad was there. My brother was there.

Tommy was there, and the president asked me and said, Mike, you know, what does this mean to you? And I said, it was President Nixon, and we're in the East Room. And I said, sir, if you could take something and cut this in half, I'd like to give the other half of this medal to the gentleman standing behind me, and that was Tommy. Mike kept his medal intact, which was fine, because three years later, he was back at the White House, watching Tommy get his own Medal of Honor for his rescue of the two pilots. It goes on from there.

They are more than former comrades in arms. They're best friends. They finish each other's sentences. They laugh about everything, even the worst night of their lives, when they were wandering through that North Vietnamese encampment. He'd kind of look at me, you know, like, you're not where we're supposed to be. And he'd go back to the back of the line, and off we go. We patrol some more. And, you know, every time we'd stop, he'd let me know that, you know, hey, dum-dum, we're not where we're supposed to be.

Mike and Tommy helped to bring Lieutenant Tai and Quan to the U.S. Dang didn't make it out before the fall of South Vietnam. He was captured and executed. Despite the loss of his eye, Tommy became an FBI agent, acing the entrance exam and the training, unsurprisingly. Eventually, he was one of the founders of the Hostage Rescue Team, which feels fitting for someone who is so doggedly obsessed with getting people to safety.

Mike went on to be a founding member of SEAL Team 6, working in counterterrorism. He's considered to be the ultimate SEAL, a giant of a man, acres of ribbons across his dress whites. I love my brother to death, but I'm close to Tommy and I am my own brother. I mean, to live through what we've lived through together and continue our friendship for all those years, it's just...

It's just a magnificent thing. And it's not just about our friendship. You know, I've known people who've been wounded together and I've been wounded with other guys in SEAL Team, but never the camaraderie and the friendship that Tommy and I hold even together today. Tommy, for his part, believes his courage isn't extraordinary. He thinks it's waiting to be sparked to life within all of us. I don't feel...

that I was anybody special. I mean, it was a time and a place and a mission that needed to be accomplished, and I was fortunate to be the one that was successful in that. But I don't feel that I was something that... At least I would like to think that somebody else in my position would have attempted to do the same thing if they could have. They're both retired now. Mike lives in Houston, Texas. Tommy lives on a little ranch in northern Idaho.

but they still see each other at least 10 times a year. After all, it's only a four-hour flight. Even if they had to swim it, they'd still find a way back to each other. Medal of Honor, Stories of Courage is written by Meredith Rollins and produced by Meredith Rollins, Constanza Gallardo, Ben-Nadaf Hafri, and Izzy Carter. This episode was edited by Peter Clowney.

Sound design and additional music by Jake Gorski. Recording engineering by Nina Lawrence. Fact-checking by Arthur Gompertz. Original music by Eric Phillips. The rest of our team includes Carl Cadel, Ashley Weaver, Greta Cohn, Christina Sullivan, Sarah Nix, Nicole Optenbosch, Eric Sandler, Kerry Brody, Tali Emlin, and Jake Flanagan.

Special thanks to the Congressional Medal of Honor Society, the Pritzker Military Museum and Library, and Adam Plumpton. And extra special thanks to Dan McGinn. If you want to learn more about our Medal of Honor recipients, follow us on Instagram and Twitter. We'll be sharing photos and videos of the heroes featured on this show. We'd also love to hear from you.

DM us with a story about a courageous veteran in your life. If you don't know a veteran, we would love to hear a story of how courage was contagious in your own life. I'm your host, Malcolm Gladwell.

I'm Malcolm Gladwell, and I'd like to take a moment to talk about an amazing new podcast I'm hosting called Medal of Honor. It's a moving podcast series celebrating the untold stories of those who protect our country. And it's brought to you by LifeLock, the leader in identity theft protection. Your personal info is in a lot of places that can accidentally expose you to identity theft.

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This is Malcolm Gladwell from Revisionist History. Hey there, you've got to check out season two of Lord of the Rings, The Rings of Power. It's going to be epic.

To catch you up, Sauron has returned and nobody in Middle-earth is safe. Season two is all about the greatest villain of all time. And if you're like, I'm not into that stuff, think again. If you love action, fantasy, or drama, you'll love Rings of Power. Season two of The Lord of the Rings, The Rings of Power, premieres on August 29th, only on Prime Video.

At the heart of every mission, there's an unshakable force that stands ready day and night. That's you, the one who rises before dawn to meet every challenge head on. At American Military University, we understand the demands of military life and the challenges you face. Our programs provide the flexibility you need to succeed.

both in service and in life. And when times get challenging, AMU is here for you with 24-7 mental health support. Always prepared. That's you. Learn more at amu.apus.edu.