The Athlete Whisperer: Ep. 7, Hide Your Money and Your Old Rich Men
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Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America.

Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a neuroscientist at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the three-pound universe in our heads. Join me weekly to explore the relationship between your brain and your life, because the more we know about what's running under the hood, the better we can steer our lives.

Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome to the CINO Show. I'm your host, Cino McFarlane. I'm an addiction specialist. I'm a coach. I'm a translator. And I'm God's middleman. My job is to crack hearts and let the light in and help everyone shift the narrative. I want to help you wake up and I want to help you get free. Most importantly, I don't want you to feel alone. Listen to the CINO Show every Wednesday on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

When I heard that she was potentially like out of prison, I was just like, hide your old rich men. Hide them. Hide your money and your old rich men. Because she is on the prowl, I am sure. That is going to be the name of this episode. Hide your old rich men. Yes. Because every episode we title it with something prophetic that was said by someone and that's it. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Hide them. Hide them.

I'm Jonathan Walton, and this is a bonus episode of Queen of the Con, The Athlete Whisperer. Episode 7, Hide Your Old Rich Men.

I'm sitting down with one of the incredible TV producers of that BET documentary, American gangster, trap queens, Peggy Fulford. Her name is Andrina Hale, and she's the one who made that insane prison call happen between con artist Peggy Fulford and her biggest victim, NFL running back Ricky Williams.

And Andrena's got some juicy insight to share about Peggy and Elkin and about the man who Peggy claims actually stole the money from her that she stole from all those athletes. I'm Andrena Hale. I am a showrunner, executive producer of Unscripted Television. I'm so excited to talk to you. Oh my God. You've worked on some big shows. I have worked on some big shows. Impressive resume. Yeah.

Yeah, I've worked on American Gangster Trap Queens, Hip Hop Treasures, Time of Essence. What else have I done? I've done a lot. I've done game shows, Celebrity Squares, The Great Christmas Light Fight. Ooh, I love that. That is a fun show to do every year. I gotta tell ya, American Gangster Trap Queens, Peggy Fulford.

I was just in awe. Just round of applause to you and your team. Thank you. I was in awe. I was riveted the entire time. But the most riveting part, of course, was that prison interview that you miraculously were able to somehow, I can't even figure out how, schedule with the Bureau of Prisons, with Peggy, with Ricky Williams and his people. You needed so many yeses.

to make that happen. It just seems like an impossible task. Talk to me about that. How did that come about? Well, it was probably harder to get Ricky Williams than it was to get the prison on board. Peggy is a very persuasive woman and, you know, she's made friends in prison. She did at the time. So...

It was easy to sort of, you know, navigate and figure out what time she was going to call in for the video chat. But it was harder to get Ricky to agree to it because, you know, it wasn't a very great time in his life and he had really trusted Peggy. So he thought about it long and hard and he talked to his team about it. And then finally he agreed to do it because he figured, you know, he hadn't spoken to Peggy since October.

since probably like a couple, a year or two before she went to prison. So he was just like interested to hear what she had to say. So we just happened to capture it. Because Peggy has her way with guys. Oh, she absolutely does. I told Peggy, I said, tell me some of your tricks because...

She'll be done with one and on to the next. They overlap like constantly. I'm like, can they just get her for like multiple marriages? Like not being divorced. Is it bigamy? Yeah, bigamy, right? Yes, she's definitely done that. Admittedly, yes. Yeah, the prosecutor said so in the sentencing hearing. She scammed her last husband because she married him while she was still married to someone else. So she couldn't really marry him. Well, we tried to get Fulford.

he so the first producer that you reached out to shanna um shanna was like she's like a dog with a bone so she i think she friended him on like facebook and then like sent him a message and then he sent her like a curious message back and then he stopped responding but he would have been interesting to get because peggy insists that all of the money that they had

Fulford took it all. Mr. Dr. Fulford, because I feel like he was a dentist or something. An orthodontist. But she felt like, and Elkin felt like too, that he finessed her. He was just like, she didn't. Elkin said, she's done all these years of finessing. And then she gets this young guy who finessed her. And then he took all of the money.

So, which could be true. I mean, there's a tiny percentage that that's true. But that's the other thing. It's just like, what happened to all the millions? Like, I know they spent a lot on Bentleys and houses and clothes and that kind of thing. And trips. And trips. But that Dr. Fulford, he may have gotten away with like... Or if she's a brilliant con, she might have stashed some away in a Swiss bank account that nobody knows about.

I don't know. Once money leaves the country, and there are so many other countries like the Cayman Islands, so she might have a nest egg with Ricky Williams, Dennis Rodman, all these athletes' money. I wonder. If we had more time, we'd...

We would have tried to push for that Dr. Fulford because I wanted to know like what he was up to. I think he was the orthodontist because she mentions an orthodontist in her sentencing hearing. She's like, I want to correct something, Your Honor. They're saying, you know, I didn't have any money, whatever. But I was married to wealthy people and anesthesiologists and orthodontists. Like all the cars, the Maserati, the Rolls Royce, it was in their name. You know, they so wasn't, you know, they had money.

That's what she said. Yeah. But I don't think he's a scammer. Like, if you're an orthodontist, you're not a scammer. No, I don't think he was a scammer. Something you said struck me. So Peggy had made friends in prison? You mean like with administrators and stuff? Like they liked her?

Well, yeah, because Peggy's a very likable person that, you know, I spent a lot of time like with Peggy, you know, as much time as you could with somebody who's in prison, but like on phones and like video chats and like through letters. And she's a very persuasive, like charismatic woman. She's beautiful. Even in prison, like we would have these video chats and her hair would still be done. And while she didn't really have makeup on, she still looked really great. She didn't have her veneers anymore. So you could see her crooked tassels.

teeth, but there was something still very beautiful about her. And she's just very sweet and warm. So you got a chance to see like how she was able to, you know, dupe the people that she was involved with because she's just

She just comes off very sweet. I think that she might be in a halfway house. I'm not really sure. She's in a halfway house in Orlando, Florida. Oh, she is. Okay. So that's where she can, she has some freedom. She can get a job, but she is monitored and has to check in frequently, but she's free to make calls and get work. Setting up this call, dealing with the prison, you got the impression that the people in the prison liked her and wanted to help her. Yeah. She had, there was one,

one person, I don't remember what his name was, but this man and she was, you know, got really friendly with him and then expedited the paperwork, you know, so that she would agree to like be on the show. So yeah, she'd, you know, and she'd made some friends with like other prisoners too, whom, you know, she appeared to try to like help out.

I've been investigating con artists for, gosh, going on six years now. And I have never, in all the cases I've ever looked into and all the victims I've spoken to, which have been hundreds, hundreds, I have never seen a scenario, and I'm a victim, where a victim gets to confront their con artist after the fact, after the conviction. I've never seen that. It was so groundbreaking. This scene in your documentary, the

I was just stunned. What was your reaction? What made you think you could do this? We just ask. Wow. You know what I mean? We just ask because Ricky's like a super chill guy. What was your take on his reaction? Did you think he would forgive her?

I wasn't sure. How did you think? If it were me, I would have gone the F off. I would have started yelling. Yeah, right? And I only got taken for like 100 grand. But if it was like 6 million or whatever, and I would have just like, you mother, I would have just let it go. Because it would have been like cathartic, you know? Yeah. Because victims don't get that. Victims don't get to confront their con artist. Exactly. So this is like a...

I think because of their like the intimate relationship, whether it was like physical or not. I think that and because of his like kind nature, I think that's the reason why he didn't go off on her because I too would have gone off on her. Like definitely would have gone off on her. But he didn't. And yeah, I commend him for that because I would have acted up. I would have definitely acted up and cussed her out. I mean, she cleaned him out. Like, you know, she cleaned him out. She cleaned him out. And he seems to almost blame himself.

which shocked me. Yeah. And this is the thing I've seen again, because we interviewed Rashad McCants, and he kind of blamed himself too. He said it was my fault. I should have been paying more attention. Well, I mean, to a certain degree, you have to take responsibility for it. There's nobody... One of the things that I learned very early in the entertainment business, because I started my career in music, is I read an article where Madonna's first money manager, Burt Padel, told her... The singularly greatest piece of financial advice she'd ever heard after the break.

Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Stories about regaining a sense of safety, a handle on reality after your entire world is flipped upside down.

From unbelievable romantic betrayals... The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family... When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal...

This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio.

I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil,

They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to. Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat. It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a neuroscientist at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the three-pound universe in our heads. We're looking at a whole new series of episodes this season to understand why and how our lives look the way they do. Why does your memory drift so much? Why is it so hard to keep a secret? When should you not trust your intuition?

Why do brains so easily fall for magic tricks? And why do they love conspiracy theories? I'm hitting these questions and hundreds more because the more we know about what's running under the hood, the better we can steer our lives. Join me weekly to explore the relationship between your brain and your life by digging into unexpected questions. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the all-new podcast There and Gone. It's a real-life story of two people who left a crowded Philadelphia bar, walked to their truck, and vanished. Nobody hears anything. Nobody sees anything. Did they run away? Was it an accident? Or were they murdered? A truck and two people just don't disappear. The FBI called it murder for hire. It was definitely murder for hire for Danielle.

Not for Richard. He's your son, and in your eyes, he's innocent. But in my eyes, he's just some guy my sister was with. In this series, I dig into my own investigation to find answers for the families and get justice for Richard and Danielle. Listen to There and Gone South Street on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There and Gone.

Welcome back to Queen of the Con and my conversation with documentary producer and showrunner, Andrina Hale. One of the things that I learned very early in the entertainment business, because I started my career in music, is I read an article where Madonna's first money manager, Burt Padell, told her,

never sign, never give anybody check signing power, sign all of your own checks. It doesn't matter how many checks they are so that you know exactly what you're putting your name on, what money is going where. And so that is some of what, something that she had learned. And it's something that I heard very early on. So it's true. Like you have to take some responsibility. If they were looking over their own finances and they were looking at where the money was going to, and they only had signing off and didn't give her

power to sign off, then she wouldn't have been able to do what she did. And she probably would have dropped them as clients or whatever. Or they would have dropped her. Yeah, exactly. And just like moved on to some other. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. Because that's one of her things is the first click in her game. She gets power of attorney. That's her thing. Yep. And by then she's got them all roped in. Let me help you. Let me take care of you. Let me let me protect you from the scammers. Exactly.

That was her in. Ironically, she's the scammer. Exactly. And she blames it on her mental health. I've literally cataloged everything she's ever said publicly about this case. Yeah. And I get whiplash from it all. Okay. So first she says it's an FBI setup.

Have you heard that? She didn't say that in your documentary. No, but she said that on the phone. She said that, yeah, the FBI forged documents and presented. And she said the FBI agent came to her house and told her, I don't care. This just sounds like an FBI, right? I don't care if you're guilty or innocent. You're going down. So she says that. Then she says, oh, no, no, no. In court, it's the mania.

She's got this mania that she has all these highs and she has a false perception of reality. And that's why she created 85 bank accounts. Like, have you ever... You've opened a bank account. How hard is it to just open one? Exactly. Right? You need so many...

documentation, your driver's license, your this, your proof of this, your this, your number. It's like, it's so hard to just open one. You need to be hyper-focused. So how could she have this mental illness where she doesn't know what she's doing to open 85 bank accounts and to be dancing the money in and out of all of them? She knew exactly what she was doing. Exactly what she was doing. So that mania thing doesn't hold up. No. And apparently, like according to her son, Elkin, who I did spend a lot of time with, because you have to talk... Oh, I know. We wanted him to be part of it and know how he is. Oh, and he was...

like compelling as hell in your documentary. Absolutely. Compelling as hell. Absolutely. That was months of speaking to him. But he shared that he thought that like Peggy had been scamming since she was like, since they had lived in Illinois, some town in Illinois, and thought that there was some, what is it, like medical fraud there. And so that's why they left Illinois and went to Atlanta. So...

I mean, and how involved do you think he was in all of this? Because he's given conflicting stories as well because he's done a few interviews. And in one interview, he'll say, I had no idea this was going on. I thought we were on the up and up. I was just managing Dennis Rodman. I wasn't part of anything. But meanwhile, he's pretending to be her brother. Yeah. And he is placating and pacifying Dennis Rodman while she's robbing him blind. Like it's, you know.

To the untrained eye, it appears as if, and a lot of her victims have said, he was in on it. Yeah, because they feel that way too. I think that he too has a very complicated relationship with his mother. She didn't raise him. He was raised by his grandparents and his uncle. He had a very tragic upbringing. There's mental health illness there. But I do think that he knew what was going on. I think that he knew.

And then, like, you know, maybe Peggy took, like, the complete fall because she didn't want him to go to prison, too. It's her way to, like, protect her son. In that BET Trap Queens doc, Peggy is given a wide berth to tell her side of the story and to fully explain herself. Though that prison call with Ricky Williams steals the show. But you know what, Ricky? I promise you, with all my heart, I will make you whole. I will make you proud of me. I promise you that. I will. I will.

Take care of yourself, all right? I will. I promise. Okay. All right. I don't remember if he said it on camera or not, but I know that we talked about it after. I said, do you, you know, how do you feel? Do you think that Peggy is remorseful? Do you think that, like, you guys could have some sort of relationship? Because she really wanted to have a relationship with Ricky and even asked me well after the show had aired if I would, like, reach out to him on her behalf to

to at least have them talk. And he just was like, "No." - Thank God. - I know. And then when I did ask him that, I said, "Do you think she's remorseful?" He was like, "No, she's just gonna come out and do the same thing." - Thank God. Okay. So yeah, he forgives her, but he's not gonna... You can forgive, but you can't invite the same abuser back into your life. - No. And he's just like, he thinks that she's gonna scam somebody else. It's just who she is, is how he put it. - What was your take on Chantel Cohen?

Chantel Cohen was Ricky Williams' lifelong friend and worked as Peggy's assistant for a short time until Peggy didn't pay her. Yeah. Um...

Chantel was great. Peggy just always downplayed it like, we weren't really that close. And I'm just like, well, Chantel seems... She knows some details. Yeah. No, you guys were really close and Chantel was really hurt. But Peggy just dismissed her. She was just like, she was nobody. I don't know why she's so upset. It's not like she lost any money or anything happened to her. And I'm like, well, Ricky is her best friend and she's part of Ricky's management team. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. We interviewed Chantel. She was amazing. Yeah. Yeah. So like, no, I really liked Chantel and I felt like she was really hurt. And she did look up to Peggy and, um, and Peggy was just, you know, just being like a mean girl to her, like, you know, in the end, in the end. Yeah. Chantel witnesses early on the crack in the story where she tells a story of, she got drunk one night with Elkin. They were out partying. They came back and he slipped. He called her my mom and she's like, wait, what, what, what?

And he's like, don't ever talk about this. We don't talk our family business. Because Peggy had painted a picture that she never had kids. Look at this body. Could I have kids with a body like this? Like, psycho. Psycho. Psycho. I feel worse for the kids. Oh, my God. I do, too. Yeah. I mean, how can you be a normal child with a mother like that who first is like, pretend to be my aunt. No, no. Pretend to be my brother. It's like, poor kid. And with Elkin, you know, he lost his dad in a plane crash. Oh, that's a whole other thing.

You know what I mean? I feel like if his dad had lived and he had lived with his dad, he would have been a completely different person because he's not a horrible person. But, you know, having lost your dad at a young age, your mom dips out and leaves you with your grandparents. Apparently his grandfather and his uncle were abusive to him, but he also, his uncle was murdered. And so right after his uncle was murdered, he like literally held his uncle's

The way he tells it, like held his dead uncle in his arms and waited for the EMS to come. And his uncle's brains had been shot out. So to have to have endured that and then not had the mother, like somebody who was like really caring, can be really devastating for a child. And then the only person who showed him any kind of love and protection was his grandmother. And then when she died, it was just like...

You know, he just went... I think that that's really when his life completely crumbled because had his grandmother lived, I think she would have been able to, like, stabilize him more. But Peggy was just not interested in that. She told me that she had her driver's license...

She's in her 60s, but she-- something with her driver's license had her 10 years younger than she was. Yeah, Chantel talked about that too with me. And the DMV happened to mess up on her ID and had her, like, I feel like 10 years younger. Something ridiculous of once all the paperwork came out and it said, like, her real age, we were like, you have to be kidding me. Yes. Did the DMV mess up or did she have a fake ID? She told me the DMV messed up.

Yes. I mean, Occam's razor, what's more likely? The DMV messed up or she faked an ID? She probably faked the ID. The DMV messed up? The DMV messed up. Oh my God. That's a good one though. Yes, exactly. And Chantel isn't the only one fooled by Peggy even after realizing she's a con artist. She's a very persuasive, like charismatic woman. While she was going through the process, she filed multiple motions for early release. She made multiple cases. According to Chantel...

She convinced one of these producers on one of these docs to like write her a letter and make the case to the judge why she should be released early and why she's a good person. And this producer contacted Chantel. Can you write a letter to help Peggy? One of the shows that I did, I remember the producer called me and said,

And the way that the producer was talking to me, I knew that Peggy got into this person's head. And the producer wanted me to write a letter on the behalf of her. And I was like, absolutely not. This is how she gets people. Like, wait, what? Just from you talking to her this whole time, like, you feel like you know her? It was me. Was that you? It was me. No. Yes, it was me. Peggy was pressuring me. She had, you know, she had begged me. She was just like...

you know please like you see how ricky responded to me when we did the interview could you please just ask him to like write a letter about the type of person that i am

And I said, I think that he doesn't want to like be bothered, Peggy. And she said, just please, just please, like, just ask. And I was like, I'm going to ask, but they're probably not going to respond. So that was me. You know, she had me connect her with like a couple of people, which I did. I had her connect. I don't want to mention their names, but I had her connect Peggy.

her to two people that potentially could have looked at her case and helped her because for a while I did believe the mental health thing, right? I don't know much about mental health, mental illness. And both of those people came back to me and they were like, Andrina, no.

No, girl. No. And so then Peggy was pressuring me about why these people were not these two people were not like, you know, communicating with her anymore. You know, what were they doing? And I was just like, I don't know. I just made the connection for you. So if nothing happens, I I'm I'm a television producer. I don't get people out of prison.

So I don't know. I just connected you with them. But both of those people were like, absolutely not. Yeah. Absolutely not. It's interesting, this mental health defense. A lot of con artists use that when they get caught.

My con artist, Mayor Smith, the Irish heiress, season one, when I started circling the wagons and finding all these other victims and building a criminal case against her, she checks herself into a mental hospital claiming she tried to kill herself. And then she gets released into the custody of the mental health hospital. And then she's in a room and board with other mentally ill people who she is scamming.

But it's like this system allows it, but that's a go-to. Yeah. Oh, I was mentally ill. I didn't know what I was doing. Yeah.

Now, the bottom line is, as you people are greedy, Peggy is greedy. Elkin is greedy. All they could talk about was just like the cars that they drove, the houses that they had, the clothes that they wore, the bags that she had, the trips that they took. They were just obsessed with like being rich and just really missing that life. And even Elkin was like, you know, it's hard to come from that high up and then be this far down because he was like,

Solo, you know what I mean? Like he couldn't make a living for himself and didn't want to make a living for himself.

So, yeah, I guess I'm just like, okay. And one of my other trap queens from like another episode, I remember the FBI agent that we had interviewed for, that was on her case said that she was making a million dollars a month. And so when I went to go film with her, I was like, girl, I would have just done it for three months and made the $3 million and just quit. And then she said to me, she said, no, she said, you become addicted to that money when you see how easy it is to get. So she's just like, it's may not be like a drug addiction, but it is addictive.

And she said, that's why you just keep going and going and going and going. And so that's what I, you know, I think happened with like Peggy and, and, you know, Elkin, because I really do think that the two of them were in cahoots. And whenever they can con people now, I think that they are still at it.

So I will, I will one up that it is an addiction to the money, but more than the money, it is this euphoria, this God-like feeling they get every con artist gets from creating things that do not exist, knowing they're fake.

and knowing you're getting everyone to believe it and you just feel all powerful. Like I created this world and everyone's acting according to my plan. Like they love it. Like it gives them a high in addition to the money. But sometimes there is no money. A lot of cons...

That's true. Look at the years Peggy put in with Ricky Williams. There was no money. There was no money. But there was story after story after story and it was all fake. And he bought all of them and so did Chantel. They bought all her stories. And that was the thrill for those years before the money. That's why she did it. Because she could appear to be this amazing, connected person.

selling hospitals and real estate in the Bahamas. Like it's exotic. It's attractive. Exactly. And then she was into her beauty. And, you know, it was always like a weird thing with Elkin when he spoke about how beautiful his mom was. It was just almost, I don't know, like a little incestuous. My conversation with Andrina Hale takes an interesting turn after the break.

Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Stories about regaining a sense of safety, a handle on reality after your entire world is flipped upside down.

From unbelievable romantic betrayals... The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family... When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal...

This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio.

I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil,

They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to. Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat. It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a neuroscientist at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the three-pound universe in our heads. We're looking at a whole new series of episodes this season to understand why and how our lives look the way they do. Why does your memory drift so much? Why is it so hard to keep a secret? When should you not trust your intuition?

Why do brains so easily fall for magic tricks? And why do they love conspiracy theories? I'm hitting these questions and hundreds more because the more we know about what's running under the hood, the better we can steer our lives. Join me weekly to explore the relationship between your brain and your life by digging into unexpected questions. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the all-new podcast There and Gone. It's a real-life story of two people who left a crowded Philadelphia bar, walked to their truck, and vanished. Nobody hears anything. Nobody sees anything. Did they run away? Was it an accident? Or were they murdered? A truck and two people just don't disappear. The FBI called it murder for hire. It was definitely murder for hire for Danielle.

Not for Richard. He's your son, and in your eyes, he's innocent. But in my eyes, he's just some guy my sister was with. In this series, I dig into my own investigation to find answers for the families and get justice for Richard and Danielle. Listen to There and Gone South Street on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There and Gone.

Welcome back to Queen of the Con and my conversation with documentary producer and showrunner Andrina Hale. She was talking about Elkin's admiration of his mother Peggy's beauty. It was always like a weird thing with Elkin when he spoke about how beautiful his mom was. It was just almost, I don't know, like a little incestuous the way he would talk about her beauty, which I always thought was like a little disconcerting. And

It's entirely, you know, I mean, if she's not in his life when he's young, I don't think that mother-son bond was ever formed, sadly. Yeah. It's heartbreaking. Yeah, she pretty much. I feel for him. I do too. I do too. Because he is not a bad person. But like I said, he's been just through hell. He's been through hell. After that episode aired, and it's available on BET Plus, I'm plugging the hell out of it because I think everyone should watch it.

Such a great, it's so compelling. After it aired, after it streamed, after it dropped, what was the fallout? What was the reaction? From the family? From anyone. From anyone. Everybody loved it. Everybody loved it. Did Peggy love it? What did she say to me? She said, I was worried for her because she doesn't come off like she cared, like she was apologetic. And there were several opportunities that I gave her

to be apologetic because that is redemption is the main focus of that show. Like you did all of these things, but redemption, you know what I mean? Like you're sorry. And you're doing all these good things. And I couldn't get that from her. And she was just like, I said, well, it's going to be what it is. It's going to be what it is.

And she was just like, it's fine. But I think that when it aired and she was able to watch it in prison, like, because I guess like they had to wait until it was linear. They had to wait like after we had dropped the episodes. It was like some time before she actually got a chance to see it. And she liked it. She liked it. She liked it.

I don't think she realized that it just, it didn't make her, nobody was sympathetic to her. People who watched it, who,

who were not a part of it they definitely did not like her i mean how could you she's a con woman yeah and cheers to my work husband david rock you know i shot all of the episodes with um the showrunner um jackson winn who is like another one of my like her work husbands the three of us are like a powerhouse on that that series and then david takes it into post and puts it together

And then shout out to Nia Wesley, who was my associate producer on that show. But she did like a really great job. She hustled and she kept at Dennis Rodman's people to get Dennis on. Yeah. Which was great. So many great gets in that episode. I know. So many great gets. Because this is a hard thing that nobody wants to talk about. When you're victimized by a con, nobody wants to talk about it. No. And I imagine at one point Elkin talks about all these other sports people they were managing. Yeah.

We were probably about 10 deep in clients. I had Dennis. I had been doing stuff for Lawrence Taylor, Jim Brown, Larry Bird, Joe Montana, Brandon Marshall. We had the whole backfield of the Dolphins, the who's who of Miami.

But I haven't heard tell that they've been scammed. But a lot of times people don't talk about getting scammed. Like they don't want to talk. They don't want anyone. Because it makes them look bad. Exactly. And some of the some of the people that he talked about, I don't know if they actually really had them. You know what I mean? Like he talks about like, oh, we had all of the Miami Dolphins. And so I'm not really sure if they if they did. Because, yeah, I didn't hear about anybody else.

I know, because I will tell you as the victim of a con artist, and I speak to victims every day, even people who call me for help, you know, because they're inspired by my story. I put my con artist in jail, even when police turned me away. That's awesome. I worked the, I'm a producer, you know, you know. Yeah. I worked it. Yeah. And I made it happen. And even victims who call me for help and advice, they don't want to go, they're like, well, do I have to go to police? I'm like, no.

"Yeah, that's stage one, you have to go to believe." "I don't wanna, can I have to give my real name?" Like, "Yeah, you have to admit this happened." "How are you gonna get this person?" But nobody wants to talk about it. And these are nobodies, I imagine. Like they're not like sports stars. But if you're the CEO of a company or you're in charge of people and I think it hurts your career if you admit, "I got taken by this woman, I believed the song and dance." - I think that's what it is too.

Do you know what Peggy's plans are now that she's out? No, I can only imagine. What are her plans? I've heard whispers that she's planning a big comeback. She wants a book. She wants a movie. She wants an Anna Delvey type comeback. She wants HBO and other streamers to back the truck up and pay her for her life story. Well, that's what she was trying to do with me.

Yes. Tell me. Well, and that's why like Elkin was giving me all the family secrets and telling me like a bunch of things. And I was going to because it's really it's it's really compelling. I know it's super juicy. And the way that I was going to come at it, I felt was like pretty brilliant.

And then it was just like having to deal with the two of them because it was just like, you know, were you thinking of going to the business with them? Yeah. I was totally thinking about doing it because, you know, a lot of the, a lot of the Queens like come to me like afterwards and want to do things, but we have paperwork. Like you've just, you've just, you have to sign paperwork, but it always had to deal with like Elkin. And then they were hustling. They were trying to hustle me. Like, and she was just like, no, I can just like,

keep him out of it. I don't want him anywhere near my business and I'll just sign with you. But I'm like, but you're in prison. So you have to like give your life rights to somebody. And then she would say she gave him the elk and it was just like too much. And I was just like, I don't even want to be bothered. So I was just like, I don't even care. Like I do not want to be bothered.

But yeah, no, she totally has like, there's so much there, especially based on like what Elkin has told me that like is starts so much sooner than, um, than the story starts with like trap Queens with, you know, the athletes, it starts way before that. And it's her scams, her scams. Yeah. So, um,

Yeah, if they get somebody and they're on the up and up and they give somebody the power to do it and they tell them what they told me and Elkin tells what they told me, they'll have a story. They will absolutely have a story. But that was her thing is she wanted to be in Hollywood. And I think that that's why Elkin came to Los Angeles. I don't know if he's still here, but that was his thing was to like, you know,

push that whole Peggy narrative because he always said, well, my mother gets out of prison, we're going to be rich again. Oh, is that what he said? Mm-hmm. Wow, they got plans. He said, just wait until my mother gets out of prison. We're going to be rich again. And I said, well, your mom may not get out of prison for a while, so don't you want to create some sort of business and wealth and do things on your own? But I don't think Elkin can do anything without his mother. Wow.

I'm blown away. And the tragedy of our current system, I found out the hard way, is even though her victims have court-ordered restitution for millions of dollars from her, she can just start an S Corp or an LLC or a Peggy Incorporated and have the money go there, and it's untouchable.

Because it's not in her name. No. And let me tell you, she will be smart enough to figure that out. Oh, I know. I just marvel and get angry at the system that allows this all to happen. Yeah. Like,

Restitution means nothing. You can't touch that money. I mean, the only thing that you can just like hope for is like they've put out such bad karma, the two of them, that that karma is going to continue to keep them in a humbled state as opposed to allowing them to get rich and famous. Like, I would hope that that does not happen. Even though I was like game for it because I was just like, this story is crazy.

- But you couldn't nail them down on an agreement because they're trying to screw you over. - No, and then they were just so like volatile, like the two of them, like, you know, you get really involved because you're trying to tell this story. So you get really involved with these people. And then you just hear like, it was just, it was so much drama. I was just like, no, I just have to like, I cannot be bothered with these people. - Yeah, I think you did the right thing. - And I was like, let me just block this number.

You're blocked. I mean, that's a smart thing. Yeah. Peggy, I do not want to talk to you. Yeah. Do you think Peggy will ever stop scamming? No. They don't know how to do anything different. They don't know how to do anything different. I don't think it's mental illness. I think that that's just who she is. And Elkin's always going to do what his mom does because he loves his mom. He wants that love from his mom. So whatever his mom does, he's going to do. Yeah. Gosh, it's so...

Out of the both of them, I think he's the most sympathetic character. Yeah. Because anyone can imagine having a mother like that. Like what else could become of you? Exactly. And I think the reason that he's so attached to like things is because when his mom would come into town, he said that she would take him shopping. And so he equates like things to love. Yeah. And so I think that that's really sad. You know, somebody who's like well into his 40s is still...

is still equating love to like things because that is what his mom did. You know, she would just buy him stuff and then she'd fly out of town again and pretend like she didn't have any children.

I mean, that's got to hurt on so many levels to have your mother not even say you exist. Yeah. Yeah, he would... And then have you play along with it. Exactly. And he would definitely spend times when he was really upset with her and not talking to her. I think he told me before...

Before they did Trap Queens, it had been months since he had spoken with her. I'd stopped like responding to her emails, definitely didn't take any of her jail calls. I think that Trap Queens brought them back together, according to him. Oh, yeah. Wow. I mean, I hope, you know, my hope and prayer for them both is to, you know, see the light and change their ways and have a loving, healthy relationship. Yeah. I'm 49 years old.

I don't think it'll happen. I don't think so either. I believe in miracles, but I mean, it would take a miracle. I mean, he's been shot and everything. Like someone shot him because of what Peggy did or in some other situation? It sounds like it's really murky, but like shortly after, I think shortly after she went to prison, he got shot in the face. Like retribution, it sounds like. I don't really know. Listen, I said that though. Yeah. Like when you're...

I'm a vegetarian, right? I don't kill anything. I catch the spider and put it outside. I'm a live and let live. But in the months after I realized I was scammed, I was having these detailed murder fantasies. One of them, like daydreaming, I liked it.

I would throw her off this top of this building because she was my neighbor and watch her body hit the ground. That made me happy. I would strangle her and watch the life drift out of her eyes. And that made me happy. I was in a dark effing place for months. Yeah. And I couldn't tell anybody because I know what it sounds like. I sound like a killer, but I like it. Like it's, it's giving me relief.

You know, like I can do something. So you tell me someone shot Elkin in the face. I can believe that if I had a gun and my con artist was there and it was within that window, I would have shot her in the face too. Like it's such a violation on so many levels. It's not even just the money.

So I get it. I mean, but thankfully, you know, I looked into getting help and then I found out that that's a normal thing that victims fantasize about hurting their perpetrator. Yeah. It eventually went away on its own and I'm still the loving, kind vegetarian. I still put spiders out. I don't kill anything, but I get it.

Exactly. But because of his mother's shenanigans, like whatever was happening in New Orleans before she got picked up, I think that he got caught up in that and that's how he ended up getting shot. And he pops a lot of shit too. Elkin has a big mouth and he's just an angry person. He's somebody who should be medicated and not doing street drugs. He should be on some sort of medication. He played football. I forget what...

what position he played, but he said that, you know, he had a lot of like head trauma and then on top of everything else, you know, I just think that he has some issues, but. Yeah. Wow. So it's either, it's probably a combination between whatever she was doing in the streets to try to keep money coming in because it's not like. And she had money coming in. Yeah. It's not like she was. And again,

This is only what we know. Yeah, this is only what we know. With all of these scenarios, you have to say, all right, if we know this one thing, there are probably 30 other things we don't know. Exactly. But we know she scammed that doctor out of 174,000. They found another check from him for close to 200,000 when they arrested her. And this is while, and then while she's negotiating her plea deal, she's scamming another guy. Yeah. It's like. Yeah. And then I heard, and then Elkin said that she was like scamming some like drug dealers in the streets or whatever. And I think that that is what he got caught up in.

Yeah. God, I wonder if she feels guilty for that. No, I don't think she's capable of feeling guilty. I don't think...

No, I don't think that's a gene that she received when they were giving out the genes that they gave other people. I think guilt is not one of her genes. Yeah, gosh. She missed that one because all of these women are brilliant and all of them are really smart and could have taken their superpowers and used them for good, but then they went down these other... Well, because intrinsically, like you talked about genes earlier...

There is a con artist gene. Yeah. And they get a thrill from it. And you wouldn't get a thrill from luck. Because regular people say, how could I sleep at night if I know I have 20 different stories I'm telling 20 different people? Like, it would keep me up. I'm like, no, no, no. It excites them. I know. It doesn't keep them up at all. They love it. I know. You know? I know. It's like a roller coaster ride. I know. They're enjoying the hell out of it. Yeah.

There were times where my con artist would invite multiple victims to like a cocktail party. And she's told these people different stories. And at any minute, one of us could have outed her, but we never did because we're polite people. But...

I would have been beside like if that was me I'd be like is he gonna say something like I could but no she loves it they love it the thrill the thrill of the con it's the thrill of the con it's a gene it's a con gene they get it and people don't know until it's way too late yeah yeah and it's sad because so many lives have just been like oh yeah ruined by it I mean even though Ricky I'm pretty sure is still like thriving don't you think it cost him his marriage

Oh, absolutely. Financial troubles cause most divorces. Yeah. So I'm sure that this...

you know, couldn't have helped the relationship. No. And especially like when when they had proof and for him to still just be like, no, like, yeah, it's like, come on, like your Range Rover, you go out to take your kids to school and the Range Rover is gone. Repoed. God, I can't even imagine. Repoed. But I applaud her for being a dog with a bone because I think she's the catalyst that took her down. Absolutely. Because Ricky wouldn't have pursued it, I don't think.

He dropped the case? Yeah, Dennis. I don't know what Dennis was doing. He was definitely a character to interview. Oh, I'm sure. He was definitely a character. I said to him, I said, Elkin says hi. And he goes, who? I'm like, buddy, there are pictures of you guys like hanging out. That was like your sidekick. Like, what are you talking about? I know. God, that must have effed him up so bad. Oh, my God. To believe this guy's your friend, your best friend, you're touring the world together. Yeah.

And to find out that, oh, no, no, he's not this woman's brother. He's the son. Yeah. And by the way, she's stealing from you. I think she got away. I think she got way more money out of Dennis than we know. Oh, I think so, too. I think so, too. Because Dennis was just like, whatever. But she says, oh, when he tells me I could have everything, I took him seriously.

I don't believe he ever said that. I think this is according to her. Yeah, I think so too. According to her retelling of the story, there's a scene where Dennis said take everything. So, you know. Like, no, I don't think he meant that, Peggy. Yeah, especially when you're telling him I'm not going to charge you. Exactly. Like, what kind of money manager is that? Yeah.

It's multi-leveled. Well, it's been a pleasure and a joy talking to you. Hats off. I respect you so immensely for doing that Trap Queens on Peggy. Well, thank you. It was phenomenal. People listening, you can get it on BET+. Yes. It's such a brilliant documentary series in general. But that particular episode, Peggy Fulford, that phone call with Ricky Williams, just everything. Her access she gives you, her explanation of

her life and her willingness to talk about, you know, to spin. Yes. And spin she did. Yeah. But great job. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, absolutely. Thank you for inviting me.

Next time on Queen of the Con, we revisit that plane crash that killed Peggy's first husband and the aftermath. Elkin alleged that Forrest converted Elkin's settlement funds. And it's got some crazy twists and turns that, not surprisingly, involve who else? Peggy Fulford.

Apparently, the last of the settlement funds, approximately $50,000, was used by Peggy in around 2005 as a down payment for a condominium she purchased in Louisiana. If you're enjoying Queen of the Con, leave us a five-star review. Reviews help other listeners find us. And by all means, click that share button and send Queen of the Con to anyone you think might be into it.

Audio engineer, Justin Longerby.

Audio engineer, Chris Desmond. Studio engineer, Graham Gibson. Mastered by Justin Longerby. Legal counsel for AYR Media, Gianni Douglas. Executive producer for iHeart Media, Maya Howard.

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Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the Weird Little Guys trying to destroy America.

Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a neuroscientist at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the three-pound universe in our heads. Join me weekly to explore the relationship between your brain and your life, because the more we know about what's running under the hood, the better we can steer our lives.

Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.