Hitler: Suicide or Survivor?
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Welcome to the Forbidden History Podcast. This program is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. It contains mature adult themes. Listener discretion is advised. Was Adolf Hitler killed in his bunker under Berlin, as we've been told? Or did he secretly escape to Argentina with his wife, Eva Braun, and live out his last years in the hills of Patagonia?

Eyewitness reports, FBI documents, and new evidence seem to contradict the official account of his death and keep the debate of what happened to the most infamous dictator of modern history alive.

There is probably more evidence to say that Hitler survived and escaped and ended up in South America than there is to say he actually died in the bunker. The silver bullet that leaves this debate wide open is the fact that nobody has ever been discovered. The testimony and the evidence for Hitler's death

is absolutely compelling. It was never on the cards that he wanted to survive and he wanted to live. There are definitely questions as to whether Hitler died in the bunker. All that was really found was part of a job. So the question remains, did Hitler really commit suicide or did he escape? I think it's very plausible that Hitler survived. He did not commit suicide. I believe he escaped.

Hitler did not die in the bunker in 1945. We've been lied to. And for whatever reasons, we're continuing to this day. 70 years on, we're still being lied to about this. On the night of April 27th, 1945, in Berlin, fires raged out of control as the intense and savage Russian artillery bombardment crept closer to the center of the Third Reich.

deep in his bunker. The man who had brought such destruction to his country, and indeed the world, knew that the war was over. The Fuhrer's options were limited. He could allow himself to be captured by the advancing Russians, but the humiliation was unthinkable. He could kill himself, but who could possibly replace him? Or he could try and escape and live to fight another day.

journalist Jamie Theakston is on the hunt for some answers to what could be the greatest cover-up of modern history. Many people believe that he survived, the reason being that no body was ever found. And so basically that left the door wide open for all of the conspiracy theories. If Hitler survived, yes, it's perfectly possible he may have fled to Argentina, but he would have had to have stayed hidden for a number of years in order to achieve that.

I think that therefore in the immediate aftermath of the war, I think he probably would have tried to escape either to the Alps, and in which case he may have had a good chance of getting down perhaps to the Middle East. I think this is a man who is extremely determined and he would have had an exit strategy before he even began. He wouldn't have been in Berlin if he didn't know how he could get out.

The Russians themselves thought he escaped and they're the ones who ended up trying to identify the bodies. There's witnesses that said, "We helped him escape." There's pilots that went, "Well, I flew him out of there." And it's all been ignored because the agreed story is the story that everyone wants to believe. We want to know the war stopped, he died, that was it. According to a book, "Grey Wolf: The Escape of Adolf Hitler,"

Hitler, his wife Eva Braun, and a handful of close aides and top-ranking Nazis did escape, using a network of secret tunnels from the Führerbunker in Berlin. Its author is Gerard Williams, a former reporter for the Reuters news agency, and he agreed to meet journalist Jamie Fexton in Paris. There's no forensic evidence whatsoever to suggest that Adolf Hitler or Eva Braun died in the bunker in Berlin in 1945.

There is a huge amount of contemporaneous reporting to say that Adolf Hitler escaped and made it eventually to Argentina, where he lived, according to our research, until 1962. People often think that that's complete idiocy, conspiracy theory, whatever. I've been a journalist a very long time, Jamie, and I went back to look at the contemporaneous reporting from organizations like the BBC, the Associated Press, Reuters.

all of whom at the time quote Stalin as saying that Hitler has escaped to Spain or Argentina. Time magazine has detailed accounts of

The bunker, the escape route from the Reichschancery, from Hitler's private quarters in the Reichschancery, this is published in Time. Newsweek carried details of how it could have happened. And then in 1947, in a Polish court, Captain Peter Baumgart of the secret KG 200 Luftwaffe group describes how he flew him out from a temporary airfield on the Hockenzollern Dan, which is a huge boulevard in Berlin.

According to Williams, everything had been prepared down to the last detail for Hitler's escape, including the clothes worn by the body doubles that would pass for the corpses of Hitler and Eva Braun. He claims that as his office clock struck midnight, Hitler turned to his orderly and nodded. 20 minutes later, a small group emerged from a secret tunnel connecting the bunker to the streets of Berlin above. So if they didn't die in the bunker, what happened to them?

I don't make things up, so I'll tell you where the information comes from. Major Nikitin of the NKVD, which is the Soviet secret police at the time, who's tasked with finding out what's happened to Adolf Hitler.

It's quoted extensively in Time magazine at the time saying that there was an escape tunnel from the Reich Chancellery, from Hitler's private quarters. It was hidden behind a concrete panel which slid back to expose a series of steps down to another bunker. And from that bunker there were another series of steps down to the underground train network in Berlin, U-Bahn. So they escaped to another bunker, they then from that bunker find their way into the underground network

And how far would they then have to travel to then... It's not terribly far, 10, 15 kilometers, depending on which way they go, when they can then come up out of the underground via an underground station onto what is a temporary runway, of which we have seen RAF aerial pictures of time. This piece of the road has been cleared. And a JU-52 is a short takeoff and landing plane, so it's able to get off pretty quickly from the ground. The Third Reich was really...

Quite switched on to the reality of the situation and they saw that Russia encroaching on Berlin did not bode well for them So again preservation is their motivation and so is a fourth Reich and that's what they would have planned and it wasn't just Hitler who disappeared Unaccounted for other senior officials do as well, which tells you that they're planning a return They're not done just yet

According to Williams, dodging fires and explosions, the small party made its way to the vast Hohenzollernbahn that ran through the center of Berlin. Once a fashionable boulevard, it was now a makeshift runway, and on it sat a Junkers 52 transport aircraft, its engines being gunned by Captain Peter Baumgart, an experienced Luftwaffe pilot.

Hitler and his companions had almost escaped the iron grip of Russia's military assault. But aren't the Russians bombarding the city? The Russians are bombarding part of the city. You have to remember this is a ground offensive. They're taking houses building by building. Berlin is not a small city. And it's also, you know, there are various rivers running through it and all the rest of it. Large areas of concrete that have to be cleared hand to hand. And it's also being held by some of the most fanatical SS troops in the whole war.

Perhaps the weak link here is that there was a plane waiting for him in Berlin that took him to the airport that allowed him to leave Germany. And I say that because there's hundreds of thousands of Russians descending on the city. Would you risk being shot down and not even being able to lift off in the first place? Wouldn't you have a slightly different exit strategy for the first mile?

presumably the whole of berlin is a no-fly zone the russians wouldn't allow planes to fly it's pretty much it's pretty much a no-fly zone um except there isn't that much air cover you know what air cover there is the storm of x which is a russian ground attack aircraft coming in trying to take out strong points there's no sort of

There's no radar for a start, so you don't know where anything is. The whole of German airspace leaks like a sieve. We're not running combat patrols over every single level of German airspace at that time. Our pilots are shattered. So are the Americans. We're all shattered by this state. It's very easy to fly an aircraft out of Germany at the end of 1945.

There were several plans of escape. One of the most famous ones is that the Nazis would come down through Italy, escape from Italy, head across sometimes through Spain or the Canary Islands and on to South America.

Another plan was, and you saw a lot of action going on with aeroplanes landing near the building and the bunker and taking people out. One pilot even testified saying he flew Hitler and Eva Braun in a very small aeroplane to Denmark onto a submarine and down to South America.

There actually was a pilot who admitted to flying out Hitler and Eva Braun as well as some other top generals. And this was publicized in the press, but yet it didn't stick. No one paid attention to it. There must have been plans in place to remove the Fuhrer from the bunker. And Martin Bormann, legend has it, took them out, flew them somewhere, put them in a submarine, sent them to Argentina, to the South Pole, somewhere.

So the plane's taken off, it's left Berlin. Where's it headed? It heads first to the Luftwaffe base at Magdeburg. It stops there, I'm not sure why, maybe to refuel. Baumgart doesn't go into details. And from there it flies to Tonda in Denmark.

where Hitler is seen to leave the plane by an SS officer on the ground, as well as Captain Baumgart's personal testimony. He hands Baumgart a cheque, I think for 20,000 Reichsmarks, which isn't worth the paper it's written on, but it's a nice thank you, I suppose. And then they are flown in another Ju 52, we believe onto Travemunde,

It's quite detailed, this flight plan. What evidence though is there that they were flown from Berlin to Denmark? The evidence is the evidence given by Captain Peter Gaumgart at his trial in Warsaw in 1947. He said that he'd flown Hitler and his party out. He explained the route that he had taken. And we also have another SS officer on the ground at Tondo, wounded, who describes the party arriving and Hitler addressing the wounded soldiers on the ground at the time.

We also have Hans Bauer, Hitler's personal pilot, talking about being at Travemunde and making ready things for the final escape. Bauer doesn't go into details in his autobiography, but he does say he was asked to go with them and he refused because he wanted to stay with his men. But there's obviously a group of senior Nazis leaving from Travemunde.

If Williams is correct, and Baumgart did fly Hitler out of Berlin, then their route to Argentina was by no means direct. According to Williams, after landing in Denmark, Hitler flew to Spain, where General Franco supplied him with an aircraft to take him to the Canary Islands. From there, the Fuhrer is said to have taken a submarine to the Argentine coast, where he disembarked some 300 miles south of Buenos Aires.

Stalin had said that Hitler had escaped to Spain or Argentina. We know that on Fuerteventura in the Canary Islands there was a major Nazi intelligence base run by Gustav Winter. It's called Villa Winter. We believe that three submarines are then tasked from the last submarine operation of World War II, which is known as Seawolf, which Speer and a number of other people have said are heading to the Atlantic coast of America carrying V1 weapons filled with chemicals and gas. They're going to take out New York.

So the Americans take this seriously and they move their whole naval blockade up to the North Atlantic to get in the way of Seawolf. And most of the boats in Seawolf are destroyed. We believe that Hitler and Ewa boarded one submarine. General Feiglein is on another submarine, which leaves beforehand and gets to Argentina before them. And after 53 days of pretty much hell, they arrive off the coast of Argentina.

The Americans and the Russians both thought that Hitler could well have survived. And there are FBI documents that have been leaked out or declassified now that state they were investigating that fact. They thought he arrived in one of two or three submarines on the coast of Argentina, and they think in the second submarine, Hitler and Eva Braun got out and then were ferried away inland.

Researchers have found correspondence to J. Edgar Hoover and from J. Edgar Hoover talking about the fact that Hitler may have gone to Argentina. It appeared that's all he did in a U-boat and is living there in sort of a Nazi community of the fourth right. What's interesting is that there's no apparent action. It's almost as though they don't care or perhaps they already knew because they had struck a deal.

And that is the most intriguing part of it all. There is a possibility that a deal could have been engineered, certainly between Martin Bormann and the Americans, where they actually said, "Let us go. We'll not bother you anymore. We'll give you Nazi scientists, the atomic bomb, landing on the moon. Just let us go. Let us take some money with us and we'll be out of your hair."

It is a possibility. There are many FBI documents now being circulated that actually do state that there is a possibility that Hitler survived. If Hitler did survive and was allowed to escape by the US government, then the Nazis would have been planning this for months, moving funds and building communities in Argentina.

It seems like a very logical assumption that Hitler would want to plan a Fourth Reich, that he wouldn't give up so easily, that he would formulate an escape plan and put the necessary procedures into action to create a Fourth Reich. And we actually have some recent documentation that's come to light that shows that there were meetings, there was an agenda to create

financial backing to to actually monetize this forthright there are areas of argentina that to be honest with you you could refer to as little germany with churches and and chalets built in the same style as as they were in bavaria a lot of germans nazis emigrated to argentina even before the war and in the early stages of the war and i'm also sure that quite a few of them like rats from a sinking ship

left Germany when they realized that things were going wrong, over to Argentina with a view to starting the Fourth Reich.

What they were doing was channeling money out of the country and building places in South America, in Argentina especially, as bases to start again. And they'd had meetings with German businessmen and American businessmen and businessmen from all over the world to take over the world, but instead of militarily, they were going to do it through finance. And it was going to build this new Fourth Reich from Argentina. This was Martin Bormann's dream.

and he had removed trillions of Reichsmarks all over the place, and especially into Argentina. And, I mean, Argentina was pro-German, or anti-British, I should say. And what better place for everyone to go to, including the Führer? Williams says that according to his research, Hitler was essentially duped by Martin Bormann and was left out of important meetings and discussions about the Fourth Reich.

There's piece after piece after piece which says that he lived in Argentina post-war. What it seems happens is as soon as Martin Bormann arrives in '47, Bormann realizes that Hitler is no longer of any use to the new Germany. And he is left with his private doctor who stays with him all the time and his butler-cum-Batman-cum-factotum, Pablo Glocknig, who looks like he's a Graf Speeckrümel.

the meetings don't happen. If Hitler did in fact escape in the closing days of the war, what was the scene like once the Allies closed in on the bunker back in Berlin? A BBC reporter who is led into the bunker after the war claims that it wasn't Hitler who was burned in the trench outside. Skull fragments supposedly belonging to the Führer are proved to be that of an elderly woman.

and sightings of Hitler start to pour into Allied command and the CIA from locations around the world, including Argentina. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Halloween is the spookiest time of year. A time where we get to have fun with what scares us.

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Visit BetterHelp.com/ForbiddenUS today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp.com/ForbiddenUS. Sitting in his bunker at the end of April 1945, the Fuhrer's options were limited. He could allow himself to be captured by the advancing Russians. He could kill himself. Or he could try and escape and live to fight another day.

Shortly after the war ended, a BBC journalist, Thomas Cadet, was allowed into Hitler's ruined bunker by Russian forces. Interestingly, this is what he said: Outside the front door of the shelter are the five perforated petrol tins that were believed to have been used for scattering petrol on the body of Hitler and of burning it. But there at any rate, my Soviet friends found no trace of Hitler himself. But there was the half-burned body of a man

In the years immediately after the war, there was no hard proof that Hitler had in fact died. One of the problems that investigators encountered was the lack of any physical evidence for his death.

the skull fragments bound by the russians near the fuhrer's bunker and believed to be his were not known to the west until 1968 then in 2009 dna testing of the bones revealed that in fact they belonged to a woman the most important thing in an investigation is is the body to some extent now the bbc get invited into a bunker by the russians and say come and have a look we've blown it up there's

You know, there's nobody here now. And they go in and there was literally nobody there. So when the Russians are asked to produce a body, they go, "Well, we haven't got one. We took it away. We've buried it somewhere else." Now, in the '70s, they claimed that they dug it up and destroyed it and cremated it, but they kept some skull fragments, which were then later tested and proved to be from a woman who was under 40 years old. So there's still no evidence of a dead body anywhere. There's no witnesses to that dead body.

Hitler and Eva Braun's body were never found, and the fact that only a fragment of a jawbone was found leaves the door open that perhaps they would have formulated an escape plan. And wouldn't it be a smart thing to do, rather than suicide? If you could get away, wouldn't you go ahead and try to do that?

If Hitler did escape, then he escaped without his jaw and his teeth, because these were found. And they were found to match Hitler's dental records. And as a result, that's to me utterly compelling. So this idea that there's no physical evidence for Hitler's body is pure junk. And of course, naturally, a conspiracist will say, well, they're not really Hitler's teeth, they're somebody else's. This is all confused, of course, with bits of skull fragment that were found near the body that have proven to be that of a woman and not Hitler. But

The teeth. For me, it's utterly compelling and, you know, having spoken to fellow historians about this, the world's at one about this, but there are these sort of outliers who think that somehow they're not his. In fact, in the immediate aftermath of the war, British and US intelligence services received countless reports suggesting the former Nazi leader had been spotted alive and at large, giving people added ammunition to claim that Hitler didn't die in the bunker.

In September 1945, it was claimed that Hitler and his closest advisor and confidant, Martin Bormann, had boarded a luxury yacht in Hamburg and had sailed to a secret island off the coast of Schleswig-Holstein. And in December, the Americans were reliably informed that Hitler had boarded a submarine off the island of Majorca, where he had been living in a hotel with a group of nuclear scientists.

There are numerous eyewitness accounts of people, waiters, porters, all sorts of people that say they have seen Hitler. Also Eva Braun, his children, and even Blondie, his Alsatian dog.

One of the Argentine generals who's very grateful for the Nazis' help says in the national newspaper, "Our friends from Germany are safe." Doesn't mention their names, but he says, "Our friends from Germany are safe." There are reports back to the FBI that Hitler has been seen. Hoover believes them and files them. There's a report which I've recently been given

to the head of naval intelligence in the US that the Vatican legate in Argentina has been told by a very believable source that Hitler is there and that the White House know. One guy who contacted me, Roberto Brun, was a waiter in a sort of private naval military dining room in Buenos Aires in the '50s. And Roberto describes in some detail how Hitler and David Brown, on two occasions, he saw them there.

What's really intriguing is the eyewitnesses who say they saw Hitler, his wife Eva Braun, and other German officers and Hitler and Eva Braun's children in Argentina going out for dinner, going for a boat ride, just going about their normal life. And the accounts are really rather credible.

There is so much nonsense about this story and there are people in these countries who are happy to peddle that nonsense to credulous researchers. I wrote a book about how the Nazis escaped. I went to Paraguay to look at the theories behind Martin Bormann and you know, you turn up to a cemetery in Ita in Paraguay, there's an old lady at the gate who'll say, "Martin's tomb is that way," or she'll go, "Martin's tomb is that way," the next day. It's just a massive disinformation and fraudsters essentially.

As you would expect, these eyewitness accounts have been absolutely met with the Spanish Inquisition, if you will. The people, the researchers have asked them, "Now, come on, are you sure that was Hitler?" And they're like, "No, no, absolutely, positively recognized it as him." And in one account, a woman from Germany who knew him before recognized him when he came into a hospital. And she said she just got the chills because there was no doubt in her mind that was Hitler.

Journalist Jamie Fexton is on the trail of evidence, trying to extract the truth from the fiction. Would seem acceptable that you and I could leave Europe and start a new life in South America. Is it not inconceivable that the most familiar face on the planet could live out the rest of his life

without being noticed or photographed or recorded in some way. Jamie, I quite agree with you. There are photographs allegedly of Adolf Hitler in Argentina and in Colombia. The CIA have one of him in Colombia. I have one of him allegedly in Misiones province in Obera. There are FBI reports from what seems to be people that Hoover actually believes are telling the truth. Lots of FBI reports of Hitler's presence in Argentina post-war.

You will see as you go through the newspapers and magazines of the day, there are constantly reports of Hitler being in Argentina and people saying, we have seen Hitler here, we have seen him there. Now, it's a bit like hiding in plain sight because the people they're hiding amongst or the people who they visit and go and see are oath-bound members of the Nazi party. Most of the eyewitnesses who say they saw him

were working for or working in places that were very Nazi friendly. You've got hotels run by people who funded the Nazi party, who were personal friends of Hitler and high up Nazis. You've got farmland that was owned by people who were Nazi sympathizers.

So the witnesses are in the right place, if that makes sense. If they're going to see him, that's where they're going to see him. And a lot of them didn't come forward until years later. They've got no financial gain by saying it. They're not trying to sell a book or a film or anything like that. There's no reason for them to say it. But there are so many witnesses.

in certain areas that say they saw it. So it's not implausible that even in the latter days of the war, he would have had still multiple escape plans to get out, to find another way to create the Fourth Reich. Why would that be part of his actual planning? Why would he commit suicide and just, you know, give up on everything that he had created? For a long time, the Russians believed that the Allies were sheltering Hitler.

And it's possible they created these fake stories as part of a disinformation campaign in an attempt to flush out what they thought to be the truth. In July 1945, the Russian commander Marshal Yorgi Zhukov claimed that since Hitler's body had still not been found, he could have flown away at the very last moment. Even General Eisenhower, the former Allied Supreme Commander, appeared to be taken in.

In 1952, he said, "We have been unable to unearth one bit of tangible evidence of Hitler's death." Many people believe that he escaped from Berlin. The Russians were, at first, quite happy to accept that Hitler had died. But then there became very quickly emerging a narrative

the Soviets were thinking, "Hang on a minute, do we really want to go around saying that Hitler's dead? Does it not suit our propaganda purposes to make it look as though Hitler's escaped and in some way may have fallen into the arms of the Allies who are now sheltering him?" Of course, there was massive distrust against the Soviets and the Western Allies. And so as a result, there was a huge disinformation battle being played on both sides, largely and successfully by the Soviets to spread

uncertainty about whether Hitler had died or not. There's lots of discussion amongst world leaders at the time about what happened to Hitler. Most poignant is Truman asking Stalin, "Is Hitler dead?" To which Stalin responds, "No." So did the Russians make up the story that Hitler escaped from his bunker in Berlin?

Was this all part of a larger plan to confuse and confound the Allies at the start of the Cold War? And just how much did the Allied commanders really know?

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According to some, Hitler, his wife Eva Braun, and a handful of close aides and top-ranking Nazis secretly abandoned their bunker in the last days of World War II. They then flew via several refueling stops to the Canary Islands, where they boarded a U-boat and then sailed largely underwater to Argentina. To most, such a story sounds like utter fantasy. And yet the rumors and conspiracy theories have persisted and continue to this day.

It's claimed by some to be a Cold War disinformation campaign by the Russians. So is it true? Most historians think it's unlikely. I think it's absolute rubbish. When I first came across this book a few years ago, I dismissed it as being 2,000% junk. I've now revised my opinion. It's 3,000% junk. I have no opinion as to whether Gerard Williams believes his story or not.

If he does, then I think he's a fool because the testimony and the evidence for Hitler's death is absolutely compelling. And I don't really know why he would want to sell a book that flew in the face of what is well-researched, well-proven, credible history.

We don't know it all and we make this quite clear in the book. Parts of the escape route are scenario, parts are a complete fact, but they're the scenarios that work best with what is available to the Nazis at the time. They have U-boats available to them. We have reports from the Argentine police and the Argentine coast guards of U-boats being off Argentina at the time. Reports from the FBI of people being landed in Argentina at the time.

So although it's impossible to say exactly that yes, they came on Group Seawolf on these U-boats, we know that the Americans said those U-boats were sunk and we know they weren't sunk. We know that one of them turned up and surrendered at Mada Plata a month later. If it's true that he actually went there, Hitler would never again set foot outside of Argentina. And though his dreams of a new Reich would never be fulfilled,

he might at least have found some form of domestic happiness with Eva Braun, with whom he had two daughters. According to Williams' theory, after 17 years in hiding, one of the most evil men in history died on February 13th, 1962, age 73, in Argentina. I think the more you look into this, the more you do your own research, I think he survived.

The silver bullet of nobody, that's not the important bit. It's the other evidence, the documents, the first-hand accounts in Germany, in Argentina, in the United States. Surprisingly, the possibility that Hitler lived and escaped is quite compelling. I think he definitely would have tried to escape. It would be a smart plan, wouldn't it? And it would go in line with the way he thought and planned out things. So it makes sense that he would try to escape.

Hitler did not leave the bunker. He didn't leave it alive. He did not go to Argentina, except in the imaginations of people like Gerald Williams. And he certainly did not die at a grand old age. All we've done is gone back to the reporting from the time and put it out in a book.

That book shows, I think, pretty conclusively, that Adolf Hitler did not die in the bunker in 1945. I think it also shows that we've been lied to extensively about the real end of World War II and how things happened after that. And I think that these things are as relevant today to us as they would have been in 1945. It's one of the great mysteries of the last century. What really happened to Adolf Hitler?

Most historians agree that he committed suicide in his bunker in the final days of the war, and that his remains were burnt to ashes to prevent any relics surviving. But with no remains, there's no conclusive proof. And with a figure as important and reviled as Hitler, without any solid evidence of his death, it's almost inevitable that alternative theories would arise.

Add to this the FBI and CIA documentation, the confessions of the pilot, and eyewitness sightings of the Fuhrer in various countries after the war, and a solid, if unproved, conspiracy theory emerges.