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Hi, I'm Tara Palmieri. I'm Puck's senior political correspondent, and this is Somebody's Gotta Win. On this show, I am going to dive into the battleground state of Michigan. It could be the state that determines the election. Both Donald Trump and Joe Biden need their core constituency to come out in this election, but they are going to be battling it out for the center, right? For those swing voters in the middle, the independents.
They will determine the election. Trump won that state by 10,000 votes in 2016 and lost to Joe Biden by 150,000 votes in 2020 in Michigan. So really, it's all about turnout in Michigan this time around. And Joe Biden is really struggling. We saw that last week with the Democratic primary. 100,000 people came out and voted uncommitted to send a message to him over the war in Gaza.
But there's also the African-American community, which has become increasingly soft on Joe Biden. This is a core part of his constituency that he needs to get out there. That's why I've brought in an unlikely Senate candidate, Hill Harper. It is his first run for U.S. Senate. He has never run for office before, but you've probably seen him on TV playing Dr. Marcus Andrews in The Good Doctor or Dr. Sheldon Hawks in CSI New York.
He's a very well-known actor, and he actually gives a pretty clinical explanation and recommendation for Joe Biden. If he plans to win this state, he believes he really needs to activate those African-American voters, those Arab-American voters, and those young voters to come out in this election cycle if he's going to win Michigan.
Of course, it will be very difficult for Biden to thread the needle between all these constituencies while also winning over some of those Nikki Haley voters, right? She won 30% of the vote in the Michigan Republican primary, and those people may be up for grabs for Joe Biden. So clearly he's going to be talking to a large swath of voters, and Hill Harper thinks he has some good advice for him in terms of activating his base in an election where turnout is really going to matter.
Hill, thanks so much for joining the show. I've been following your pretty young political career since you decided about, sounds like about almost a year ago, that you were serious about jumping in the race. And then you made it official in April, right? No, no, no, no, no. I made it official later. I didn't launch until July. Okay, well, I had been hearing the talk about it. You've been hearing the talk, yes. I was meeting with so many people around the state trying to learn, trying to figure out
You know, could I be of service? I mean, that's really what the question was. Could I add value? Would my voice be something that could actually be probative and make a difference and impactful? You know, and we figured out folks said yes. But you did write an article that said Hill Harper against the machine. And I think back then I was somewhat naive. The machine is deeper and bigger than I think I had even anticipated.
Yeah, I was just going to say what I was learning in Washington was really about people were concerned. They were worried about you coming along and taking supporters away from your opponent, Alyssa Slotkin, who is a Democrat. She's a member of
No, you may have said it right the first time. I met a representative of Congress. It came out Republican, but that was my mistake. She is a member of Congress, but she's a moderate. And, you know, the Washington machine was already really ready to anoint her in a lot of ways to this position because, you know, she'd be taking on the seat from Debbie Stabenow, who's already endorsed her. She's a senator from Michigan and it's not.
it felt like a safe bet in like a swingy seat. And so, you know, there was a lot of talent in Michigan, right? But there was a lot of concern about Alyssa and her issues with the left, with the African-American voters, which is obviously, you know, a core part of your constituency or at least the people that you're trying to reach out to. So yeah, when I had heard you were interested, I was like, well, he certainly has the name ID. You know, he's an actor, he has a message, but you've got someone who right now has,
you know, $6 million in the bank and you've got $154,000 in the bank. You have someone who has the support of a, you know, sitting senator and you've got, you know, you're doing a more grassroots campaign. I know you have like two unions have endorsed you, but it's not quite the same. But, uh,
But, you know, the other thing is some polling does show that Alyssa is ahead of you by 42 points in some recent polling. You have until August, which a lot of people don't really know. You know, you have until August. It's a very late primary, August 6th. And so we have five months, in fact, to
On the other side, there's a candidate that literally just announced last week that he's in the race and so just got in. But so so there is time. And I think some of that some of that polling data is is old, you know, because I'm the only African-American left in the race that I think some of those polls were done while there were other African-Americans in the race on both sides.
And also doesn't account for the momentum that we have certainly since UAW Region 1A, which is the largest region UAW. You mentioned the United States postal workers here in Michigan and then IATSE in Michigan.
on the west side of the state of Grand Rapids, that local. You know, I'm a 32-year union member, and I was elected to the national board of my union by my union membership. And I've been out on the strike lines, and I was on strike myself. As an actor, SAG-AFTRA. Well, the Writers Guild went on strike first, and obviously we honor that strike. And then the SAG-AFTRA went on strike, which is a member of AFL-CIO. And then obviously here, the UAW was on strike. So we went out
supported UAW very heavily. UAW Region 1A is run by Laura Dickerson, who's an amazing leader. Region 1 is run by LaShawn English, another a
incredible black woman who's an amazing leader. And these regions are super strong and they're super strong leadership. And the folks saw me out there. I mean, we were handing out gloves when it started to get cold, hats, take food out. And not just UAW. You had the casino workers strike. You had the nurses. You had the SEIU health care and folks. So this is a movement around laborers.
It's a movement around living wage. It's a movement around dignity and people power, right? The power of the collective. And that's really what my campaign is, right? My campaign is about talking to people. It's like you mentioned money as it's sad that money is even an indicator of a strength of a candidacy. I would suggest that the volunteerism, like we were the first to turn in our 30,000 signatures because we had a volunteer army.
Right. And so I think that, you know, it's ironic and I'll just say this. It's ironic for me and sort of it feels strange coming out of my mouth when I say, you know, I'm running to get money out of politics, but I still need money to run, you know, which is right. I don't need as much money, I think, as other candidates because we're running a different type of
grassroots campaign that hopefully feels like a hockey stick. But, you know, we got five months to do this. And I feel very good about the momentum that's happening. Brenda Lawrence just endorsed our campaign. And, you know, she was a sitting member with my opponent. Right. And that's a powerful message. Yeah, I would say so. But I mean, you're still like you're not just up against the Michigan establishment. And like, obviously, unions are huge in Michigan. Right. But you've also got like
the Democratic establishment in Washington, which is like very powerful. And they know that this is going to be a tough race. A Republican could take back, you know, Michigan. And so I'm wondering, like, what is it like to run up against Washington? You're not just running up against the establishment in your state.
This is your first time running for office. Most people don't go straight to the Senate. They generally, you know, spend some time in the House, make some friends in D.C., you know, have they get in some, you know, buy in with the power brokers and they're able to make a calculated decision about whether it's their time or not. And you're kind of coming in there as like a renegade, you know, not even in the Michigan Senate.
A couple of factors led to that. One, I was inspired by Senator Elizabeth Warren. So she had never run for office before. She'd never held a legislative seat or anything like that. But she had a prominent role in the Obama administration, like, and she had been able to elevate herself in that way. Sure, absolutely. And then, but there's, and there's others as well. Senator Raphael Warnock never held political office, never ran. Even John Ossoff is another example. But all that's to say,
is that if we keep running the same type of people, if we keep electing establishment politicians, we're going to continue to get the same types of status quo level results. And that's why so many people are checking out of the process. We heard, and you just talked about November, we heard from a consultant who basically called and said, you know what, we just ran some data that just made our heads explode and said, if it's Biden-Harris-Harper,
President Biden has a significantly higher opportunity chance to win Michigan than if it's Biden-Harris-Slockin. Is it because of the African-American voters? Because of the African-American turnout. Black folks in Michigan are disgusted with what they've gotten. For the first time in 57 years, Michigan does not have a black Democratic representative in Congress, in the federal delegation. That's 13 congressional seats and two Senate seats. And every October, when there's a presidential cycle,
The Democratic Party comes to the black community in Michigan and says, save us, save us, because a Democrat cannot win statewide in Michigan without the black vote. They just can't. It's a red state until Wayne County shows up. And folks don't feel like they've gotten a return on their investment of their vote. And so they're checking out. So the last primary
African-American turnout was 10%. We're clearly not talking to a massive constituency group that has been so loyal to the Democratic Party, and we've lost them. And to have the Washington establishment show up when an open Senate seat comes up, to have a Washington establishment
Say, you know what, we're not even going to talk to the leadership in the community to find out who would you like to see represent. We're going to force feed you a candidate and say, you're going to have to get behind this candidate. And we're actually going to use the entire levers of our machine to clear the field. What's happened here in Michigan is unprecedented.
They cleared the field. And literally, it's a binary race when it should be 10, 13 people in this race. But the Michigan is a pretty wide swath of the electorate. The Democrats tend to be more moderate as well. So I mean, Tara, Bernie won the Democratic primary here in 2016. Jesse Jackson won in 1988, the primary when he ran. I mean, you know, Michigan has a real...
of being very progressive, I believe, and aggressive with candidates that are aggressive, right? But it also has a large swath of even Republicans who are willing to vote, you know, Democratic. So you have to speak to the entire, you know, spectrum of the party. Great example. I've just got endorsed by the Southeast Michigan Chamber of Commerce. And so...
They endorsed one Democrat and one Republican. They endorsed Mike Rogers on the Republican side. They endorsed me on the Democratic side. So Mike Rogers and I gave a speech last week. A woman comes up to me afterwards and says, you know what? I'm a Trump voter.
but you are saying the exact thing that I want to hear. That's exactly what I want. And so it reminds me of like the Trump-Bernie bridge, that there is a sort of, you know, connection between the two. In the sense that they're kind of like, destroy the machine and let's start again because what you've been getting isn't working for you is essentially the message. I would say differently than destroy the machine. I would say destroy the corruption and the collusion. What do you mean by collusion? Yeah, explain that.
So both parties are complicit in this behavior, which is the collusion is between big money. Now we can talk about big pharma. We talk about the NRA. We can talk about APAC. We can talk about dark money and basically Citizens United and policy and politics. And so as long as we allow backdoor deals to happen, and I say this, Tara, all the time, I believe that.
People think that the reaction to the Obama presidency was the Tea Party, and that kind of led to this MAGA world we're in. But the real reaction was Citizens United. In 2011, when you have Citizens United and you have the ability for unlimited dark money to reign in and be the determinant factor. I mean, you even said it yourself at the beginning of this interview, talking about dollars in the bank.
rather than talking about how many people are you moving. - But that's advertising, you know, and that's what you need that. - Exactly. - And endorsements, you know, momentum is, it helps candidates like the impression of momentum and having money and having polling and all of that is what makes the difference between being like, you know, in the news daily or not. And that's being in the news essentially is free media as well. I mean, it's free advertising. - Absolutely. And so when we think about, to answer your question about the collusion and the corruption,
is that people are being bought. And I refuse to be bought, bossed, or bullied. There's clearly the ability for money and moneyed interest, special interest, lobbyists, corporate interest, super PAC, et cetera, et cetera, to have such a determining factor on policy that people...
People are disillusioned. They know the fix is in. Well, I feel like they've shown that in the last in the primary election. You know, 20 percent of the voters come out against Joe Biden uncommitted to you like those voters. Do you think that they will come back and vote for Joe Biden in the fall or are they lost? They're certainly not lost. I mean, just just the fact that they took the time to come out to vote.
to send a message that you're already seeing the results of. I mean, you know, the vice president just came out for ceasefire yesterday or, you know, two days ago. And so you're seeing the results of, of, of the sending a message saying you need, you need to step up. And so if the democratic party, Joe Biden steps up, they're going to come back. They will vote. They will vote. And, and, and certainly, um,
That's a constituency group. I was just yesterday at a candlelight vigil. There was an interfaith vigil. You had Jewish leaders there. You had Muslim leaders. You had Arab leaders. Because Michigan has one of the largest, you know, Arab American populations, right? It's like how many people is it in Dearborn?
100,000? Dearborn, Dearborn Heights and extended. Michigan has one of the largest Arab and Muslim populations outside of the Middle East. Just for context for the listeners, Donald Trump lost Michigan by 100,000 votes in 2020. And he won Michigan by 10,000 votes in 2016. Sorry, 150,000 votes. So it's really enough to change an election if these voters decide to stay home, they decide to vote for a third party. Exactly.
Cornel West, et cetera, Jill Stein, RFK Jr., if they decide to vote, voice a protest vote against Joe Biden, that could change the entire course of the election. So like you're really in the center of it right now. And I'm just wondering, like, do the voters understand that voting uncommitted is voting for Trump? I don't agree with that premise. I don't think uncommitted is voting for Trump. I don't think they think uncommitted is voting for Trump. They think
And I think rightfully so that uncommitted is sending a message of if you want our support, you have to step up in a way that's meaningful. I'll tell you a story. So Warren Evans, who is the Wayne County executive, arguably the highest ranking black. The party poobah, right? Like the guy who makes the decision. Highest ranking black elected official in the state. He's endorsed my campaign early on.
And and we talked and he said, let's let's go to Dearborn and let's take a meeting with the leadership. This is after October 7th is early November. And so we go to Osama Sibilani's office who runs the Arab American News. And they assembled, you know, 15 of great leaders from judges to mayor of Dearborn. And then you had.
You had folks from his office. You had Abdul Al-Sayed, who ran for governor back in 2018. And so somebody said a startling quote, because I said something very similar. I said, you know, Trump is Muslim ban. I mean, you know, that's not good. And someone said, Hill, we're so glad you're here so you can start to understand and understand our culture better.
Number one, African-Americans and Arab and Muslims have to work together. We have to understand each other. But one thing you have to understand is there are people in our community that feel this way. And I said, what's that? He said, we'd rather be stabbed in the face than stabbed in the back.
Wow. And I understand that because sometimes if I'm traveling in the South and somebody's just, you know, they got their Confederate flag out and they don't even look at me like I exist. I get that versus someone who's smiling in my face, but they're trying to sabotage me on the back end or talking, talking about me after I walk out the door and they're just as racist. That's probably a part of the appeal.
Actually, this brings me to the question I really wanted to ask you about. It's like, why is Trump making gains among African-American voters? Why are they leaving Joe Biden? I mean, is it that same thing? They feel like, you know, Trump may make comments like, African-Americans understand me because, you know, we both have...
criminal records or something like that, whatever he had said a few days ago. It was like, or obviously racist. Is there a feeling like, well, we just trust Trump more because we know what we're getting from him? Why are more African-Americans, why is he going up? Even in 2020, he won more African-Americans than 2016. First of all, those comments by him were disgusting and wrong and racist and incendiary and all of those things. And I don't think
folks are moving to Trump from the black community. I think that they're moving away from the Democratic Party for what I said earlier about the fact that they feel like they're not getting anything for their vote and they've been so loyal consistently. And so the question becomes in their mind is, you know, I'm not getting anything from the Democrats. Well, maybe I should try over here to see if I get something over here. Is it Trump or is it like Cornel West? Is it Jill Stein? Is it?
Is it RFK Jr.? Is it just staying home and like pissing people off that way? I think for the most part, it's staying home. And that's why our candidacy is gaining so much momentum here in Michigan, because we're giving them something to vote for.
right? They understand. And one of the most powerful things that seems to resonate, which is odd, but it just, every time I'm in front of a crowd and I basically break down and say, you know, when I was at Harvard Law School, my constitutional law professor would hammer home the power of the U.S. Senate and I'm not going to go into the whole story. So I tell a little story about that. And then I say, there's 100 people that fundamentally control $6.2 trillion and how it gets allocated. And that money is your money.
and it's not the government's money it's your money and if you don't have someone sitting at the table advocating for those resources to come back to you
Then just like Shirley Chisholm said, you don't have to see the table, bring a folding chair, but then you're not going to have a voice. You're not going to get the resources. And they get it because they're like looking around their communities, like here in Detroit, and the resources aren't coming back. And so they want someone who will say, I'm going to bring resources back here. I'm going to fight for you. I'm going to be a voice for you and your community. And that's what's going to bring folks out. And I think they just don't want to give their vote away for nothing anymore. And that's what they feel that they've been doing. That's why I want to hold both parties accountable.
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So Biden is behind Trump by six points in a lot of polling in Michigan. For example, Bloomberg Morning Consult, it's a very reputable poll. He trails behind Trump. But in a race with, you know, RFK Jr., Jill Stein and Cornel West, it kind of shaves off Trump's lead against Biden. And would you want Biden to even come and campaign with you? I mean, would that be a drag for you in Michigan to have the president? It would. It certainly would not be a drag because here's the deal. We're getting...
Young people here in Michigan, we're getting the African-American community. We're speaking directly to the Arab and Muslim community. We're getting the environmentalists and the progressive community. What my over the next five months, what my campaign has to do is make more inroads in the more establishment Democrat communities. Right. So it's expand beyond those bases. That is the.
the progressive base and expand into the establishment side. And as there's more recognition than my candidacy here in Michigan, it's historic, right? I just want folks to need to know this. There's never been a black Senator in Michigan. There hasn't been a black Democrat on a Senate ballot in multiple decades. And so this, the fact that I was the first candidate to turn in my signatures, get on the ballot
is historic. And so what's happening is we have to build upon the base and build out to the rest. So having President Biden help talk to the establishment, Biden, Harris, Harper, President Biden wins Michigan. I mean, there's no question about it. We win this state. And that's the message we have to send to the Democrats across the state that we bring that out. We're winning. We're winning people two to one when we get in front of them. You think you could get the kids in Michigan that are protesting the Warren gauze to go out and vote for Biden?
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Not a year. Sorry. Yeah, but I got to get them to vote for me in August 1st or I won't be in November. But if you lose, will you help Alyssa Spock and bring those people over? I need the Democrats to win. We have to win this state. So yes, we have to win this state. We have to hold the Senate seat.
And the president has to win this state. There's too much at stake for the future of our democracy. There's too much at stake for the future of our country. There's something I talk about a lot, Tara, which is regenerative democracy and the idea that the Constitution is this living document that, you know, in both the Michigan Constitution and the U.S. Constitution start with we the people. And we have to talk to people, bring them back into the conversation and then allow the people to lead and then do
things that are in support, real solutions, not this political theater and all this divisiveness that we're seeing. And that's what we're doing. We're doing, our candidacy is doing that on healthcare. We're doing that on women's reproductive rights and women's reproductive freedom. We're doing that around guns, gun safety, common sense gun laws.
All of these things, we're doing the work and it's resonating with Democrats all across the state and even some Trump voters. Wow. So you think you're able to win over Trump voters right now? Absolutely. Your campaign? Yes, definitely. And what are they saying to you? So they're saying that they're tired of the villainy and this idea of creating villains and this party politics thing.
And I'm not going to be a shill for the Democratic Party, right? I'm going to be fighting for people, all Michiganders and all people across the country. And they love that. They respect that because they know I'm going to show up to work for them, not work for a special interest group, not work for the people who wrote the biggest checks, not work for any of these moneyed interests that have controlled politics. Just think about this. Big
Big oil spends hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars on elections and they bought politicians. And that's on both sides. And that's the fundamental point. That's the desire to blow up exactly what you said, the establishment, the machine. It's the same sort of...
an interest in chaos, but, you know, obviously you need a plan after that. I just want to ask you one last question before we wrap this up, but what advice would you give to Joe Biden? Because he clearly has a problem in Michigan. He has, you know, progressives protesting him. He has the Arab American community furious over this war in Gaza. He's got students protesting him at, you know, University of Michigan. He's got African-Americans who don't want to turn out and vote for him.
What advice would you give to him? Like he has a huge problem in Michigan. It could cost him the election. I would say two, two, two, two specific things. And they're relatively simple. Number one, I don't know who came up with this idea of Bidenomics or whatever. That's just a horrible term, a horrible word. It sounds like inflation or whatever to me. He should just say, I'm Joe Jobs because Michigan Michiganders care about jobs.
Like work, wages, and wealth. We care about jobs here. And that's why this is the labor movement capital. Jobs, living wage jobs. I'm Joe Jobs. Run around. I'm Joe because he is Joe Jobs. For the first time, I believe, in two years, we've seen this level of unemployment so low. He is Joe Jobs. The economy is doing well, even though people don't feel it because their grocery prices and their gas prices are so high. But come and talk about the jobs, job creation. He did show up.
I believe one of the first, if not the first sitting presidents to go to a strike line. So when he came here for the UAW, that sent a great message. Now to the other point about uncommitted young people, et cetera, he's got to come out for ceasefire. And obviously there's talk within the camp. I mean, we just had the vice president come out for ceasefire right here. Now he's gonna give the State of the Union address.
In the State of the Union, I'm sure he's going to probably dance around it or say, you know, we are close. I mean, I think they're fighting so he can say we just helped negotiate a ceasefire. I mean, obviously, that needs to get done before Ramadan. And so I believe that they are they're trying to do their best before Thursday and the State of the Union address to do that. But those are the two things, Joe Jobs and ceasefire. Joe Jobs and ceasefire. Ceasefire, though, could alienate.
you know, voters to the right, you know, moderate Democrats and some independents, moderate Republicans. So it was like, how do you bridge that divide? You bridge that divide by having a conversation about how many innocent women and children and civilians are literally buried under rubble right
how many women, children and civilians are dying of dehydration, starvation. Our country is a better country than allowing that to happen and sending over 38,000 MREs, meals ready to eat that we dropped the other day is symbolic and it's great to see that footage, but there's
over 2 million people. There's 1.5 million people in Rafah who are literally starving and dehydrated. You have a conversation about- No, absolutely. But there's still a huge Jewish American population too, or just conservatives that feel like they were under assault and they're responding perhaps. Sure, sure. But Tara-
That requires a real conversation. Saying ceasefire is not anti-Jewish. It's not anti-Israeli. And allowing that idea to continue is part of the problem. I have so many dear friends, rabbis, people I love, people from the Jewish community that I love. And yes, I came out for ceasefire, but that doesn't mean I'm supportive in any way of any type of anti-Jewish sentiment. Nothing
Just because you want to, I always say this, there is no good war and there's no bad peace. That is what we have to own and understand, particularly if we are going to be the leading democracy in the world. We have to own the idea of democracy and peace. And the president is so well positioned to do that and have that conversation with, we had faith leaders yesterday in Dearborn from across the spectrum. It's, it's,
This thing isn't so far removed that ceasefire is code word for being anti-Semitic. It's just not true. And so we have to have this honest conversation about real harm and what's happening to people's families. Okay. Well, thank you so much for joining the show. I really appreciated it. And we'll see how it works out. You've got a long run. This is one of the latest primaries, August 9th. And then you'll be rolling right in if you went into the general. If I went on August 6th,
or whoever wins on August 6th, you know, like what, 10 days later, we'll be in Chicago at the Democratic National Convention and being able to talk to the country. And so it's an exciting prospect. I think we're well positioned to get there. And Tara, listen, you're always welcome to come to Michigan. If you want to come beat the streets, we'll go to Flint. We'll go to Flint because there's something we haven't even mentioned here. This is national.
Flint, we're coming up on the 10-year anniversary of Flint, the Flint water crisis in April, and they still haven't been paid. Wow. They still haven't been compensated for all that harm. And you talk about the fact, you ask the question, why are folks checking out? They're checking out because of that. They feel like because they don't write a big check, they're ignored and lost. And our candidacy is getting those people back. But we'll go to Flint together if you come up here and we'll walk the streets and talk to people. Yeah, I'd love that. That sounds great. Awesome. All right. Thank you so much. Thank you. And I'm sure we'll check again soon.
That was another episode of Somebody's Gotta Win. I'm your host, Tara Palmieri. I want to thank my producers, Christopher Sutton and Connor Nevins. If you like this podcast, please follow, rate it, and share it with your friends. If you like my reporting, go to puck.news slash Tara Palmieri and use the discount code Tara20 for 20% off. I'll be back next Tuesday.
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