Democrats Go to War With Biden, With Axios's Alex Thompson
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Hi, I'm Tara Palmieri. I'm Puck's senior political correspondent, and this is Somebody's Gotta Win. I am in the CNN Politico grill hiding out with my former colleague, Alex Thompson. We are both former Politicos, so we're actually in a dark space right now as ex-Politico celebrities.

Yeah. Politico expats, political exiles, political refugees, whatever you want to call them. Yeah, exactly. So we were just kind of commenting that if we were found here recording a podcast, we may be actually evicted. But I think it's fine. At very least, really serious side eye. Very serious side eye. But.

The reason we're really getting together is there's a lot to talk about today. Most importantly, Joe Biden and the status of his campaign, the status of his political life, let's be serious, and what's going on on the Hill as Democratic leaders, like, really try to push him out. And Alex is super plugged in to Biden's inner circle and can really speak to that. I've got some new reporting, too, on the push to get him out coming from Democratic leaders. But first, we should probably talk about Trump's speech tonight.

At the RNC, which was completely unremarkable. I was so exhausted by the end of it. I just felt like I was going to fall asleep. It was a somber tone to start, for sure. And him retelling what happened to him was dramatic and moving. And it did not sound like your typical Trump, right? But then he eventually fell into his Trumpisms and...

Yeah, it wasn't like crooked Joe Biden the way you would normally hear it, but eventually he got there. Yeah, I mean, it was striking an effect of how he seemed to deliberately try to be uninteresting. The first 30 minutes I thought was compelling, retelling the stories. The first time he'd really told the story of what it was like at the rally with the assassination attempt. But then after that, he seemed to be, you know, someone joked that it was Trump acoustic version.

And because he was playing all the same notes, but it was just like much softer. Yeah, it was a Trump acoustic version. That is a good way of putting it. But yeah, apparently even people who are in the crowd were just getting a little tired of it. It was 92 minutes. It's the longest speech ever, I think they said, of a convention speech. Yeah, I was at the Republican convention speech in 2016 in Cleveland with Trump.

Night and day. That was like fire and brimstone. America is dying. Midnight in America. Vote for me or we are all going to perish. This was like, I'm a nice grandpa and Joe Biden, I'm better than Joe Biden. It was just so different in tone. I know. And they said that last night. I mean, I spoke to some of his aides and they were like, it's going to be different. And I was like, yeah, right.

Yeah, right. He'll start that way, but then he won't be able to help himself. But you know what? Having a near brush with death can change a person. You know, people go into shock. PTSD is a real thing. We'll see how long this lasts for. I mean, we know in his Truth Social post, his most recent one, he featured a video of Joe Biden slowly walking down the stairs of Air Force One. So he's clearly not all about this unity kumbaya thing.

And you heard it in the speech. You referenced him as the worst president of all time or something like that. And he also weirdly spoke about the great Hannibal Lecter as if he was a real person. So there's some of like the greatest hits are coming back a little bit, but not in the same rally wild way that he normally would. Yeah. Well, and you saw that with the crowd. It was like a very just subdued, just subdued speech. And the crowd was subdued, too. And it was interesting because you could tell that it was not necessarily the speech that

that they were going to do originally because you don't have like your openers be so testosterone quote unquote heavy with like Hulk Hogan and Dana White and Kid Rock. It was like a gladiator fest. Yeah. And then you come out and you're just like very subdued and like calm and measured. Clearly like the contrast of the plans versus what they pivoted to. And maybe it's authentic. I mean, I don't have any reporting reports.

regardless of it's authentic or not, but, or is it, is it finally the long promise Trump pivot to like be more reasonable and like welcome people into the tent that some political advisors have wanted him to do? But does that help him get Nikki Haley voters? I don't know. Maybe, maybe. I mean, watching Trump trying to do like conventional political strategies, like watching a dog drive a car, you know, it's just so, and you, it felt in some ways it sometimes felt inauthentic. Yeah, you're right. And I'm sure at the end of the day, he feels like he has the best political instincts.

And maybe he thinks his political instinct right now is just to chill it out and tone it down. And also, it's easy to be magnanimous and it's easy to sound somber and sober when you're up. You're not fighting for your life right now. But we shall see for how long he will be in this position, because if he's got a new candidate to go up against, I think you're going to see feisty Trump again. Absolutely. Fighting for his life, his life as well, because let's not forget the stakes are high for him, too.

Yeah, if he loses this election, he could spend the rest of his life in prison and at least the next five, 10 years in court. Okay, let's talk about Joe Biden because let's be serious. The real story right now is in Wilmington. Rehoboth, Delaware. Rehoboth, Delaware. Is that where they are? Yeah, the first time Rehoboth, Delaware has been the center of historical gravity. Wow, so tell me what you're hearing from inside there. It's complicated. So I can tell you that like, there are definitely people in the White House,

in the Biden campaign that think he should drop out. That think like... The show can't go on. The show can't go on. It is unsustainable. You

You cannot have your biggest donors, essentially like, you know, some of them, I mean, I don't know if you'd want to call it blackmail, basically saying we're not going to give you money anymore unless you replace the ticket. You can't have all the congressional leadership of the party also in open revolt. And then basically no one of the top leadership, you know, excited about your candidacy. Like they're just like, this is painful. It's like a slow death.

There are others, though, you know, that basically just believe, like, you know, you've seen other freakouts before, you know, like thinking, and it's not that it's a complete and perfect comparison, but they will make this argument, you know, like Ralph Northam, who was the former governor of Virginia,

everyone called him to drop out and then he just didn't. Then people were like, I guess he's not dropping out. Or you have Donald Trump with the Access Hollywood video. Everyone is like, he should drop out or is condemning him and he just sticks it through and everyone just sort of was like, well, we're still going to vote for him over Hillary Clinton. Maybe Joe Biden, maybe you sort of just call what could be a bluff and say, I'm just going to stay in and eventually the donors are going to come back because they hate Donald Trump enough. Maybe.

I just feel like there are so many clips right now that could be used against Joe Biden by Republicans. There's just so much ammo to be used, so many members of Congress. Jon Tester today, a senator from Montana, saying he needs to drop out of the race. His closest ally saying you need to be out. I mean, the problem is Trump was a renegade. Ralph Northam, they were renegades. That was their brand of politics. They could say it was the elites that are up against him.

That's not Joe Biden. He is a man of the establishment, and I think Americans know that. So when someone like Nancy Pelosi, his friend, turns on him, when someone like Chuck Schumer, his friend, turns on him, when Al Sharpton is saying, I'm with him, but I'll let him decide and make up his mind, when you've got Adam Schiff, the biggest Trump antagonist, one of the most well-known Democrats probably, going out against him, these are his friends.

With Trump, those people were never his friends. Actually, it helped him. The more that the establishment came out against him, the more the grassroots wanted him. And he was able to say, it's the elites. Now, when Biden says it's the elites, no one believes him because he's lost the grassroots, too. I mean, two thirds of Democrats say they don't want him on the ticket.

I don't know that he ever really had that strong of a coalition anyway. So a few things about it. I don't disagree with most of what you were just saying. My only pushback, first of all, is that even though I think you're right, that the guy was elected to be a senator at 29 and then was also vice president and is now president, clearly a member of the Washington elite.

But he does not think of himself that way. So if you're thinking, is Joe Biden going to run? Is he going to stay in or drop out? Joe Biden does not think of himself as a member of the elite. Joe Biden thinks of himself as an outsider who's always been looked down by all these people in Washington and has never been taken seriously. Like the chip on the shoulder has grown and spread.

in huge size over the decades, right? I mean, like that's how he- It's his mythology. Yeah. So like that's his self-conception. But it doesn't match reality because in truth, the Democratic Party, they changed the schedule of the DNC calendar to start in South Carolina where he did best. He lost in Iowa and New Hampshire. So they changed the calendar and just dropped those two off the map.

so that no one could really challenge him. Absolutely. And in 2020, even though he lost the first two primary states, the party still got behind him and they picked him. If anything, he is an example of a Democratic establishment candidate. So I don't disagree with what you're saying. I know what you're saying. I'm talking about his truth.

Yes. Well, because his truths matter because here's the thing. It is almost impossible to take this nomination away from Joe Biden. Because his name is on the ballot that the delegates have. Yes. And he won the primary, even rigged as it was. He won the primary. So the thing is, like, this is a singular decision.

Like, all that matters is, does Joe Biden want to get out or does he want to stay? If he wants to stay, there's not much Democrats can actually do about it. And so that's why I'm, like, sort of, like, psychoanalyzing him. Yeah. No, I think it's worth it to psychoanalyze him. And if you're also Joe Biden...

You know, the two rallies he's done, the one in North Carolina and one in Michigan, those are two of the best rallies Joe Biden has had in a few years. Like they had good crowds and that's not representative of the whole base of the party and like the AP poll and everything. If you're Joe Biden and you're just thinking about your lived experience the last few weeks, you had some of the best crowds you've had in a long time cheering you not to quit.

And I'm just, you know, you can see how he's talking himself into it. Now, I think it's very possible he drops out this weekend or like in the next week. But you could see a world in which he's talking himself into this. OK, let's talk about the flip side. Democratic leaders. I've been hearing from my sources. I'm sure you're hearing from yours. I was told it's not a matter of if he steps down. It's a matter of when.

Schumer, Pelosi, they are dug in. They are not going to let him bring the ship down with him. And the campaign's not over. The pressure campaign will continue. I was told it's going to be death by a thousand cuts if he doesn't stop. And it's going to be a collective group effort. It's not going to be the one person who did it. There was a feeling that Schumer could corner him and say, it's time to back off. And there's been reporting, and I'm sure you have it too, that he tried in Delaware to

And it didn't work. Biden was defiant. He then had a phone call with the new Dems in that, you know, explosive phone call that we talked about on the show. And he mocked a

A bronze star member of Congress compared him to his son, Beau Biden, his late son. And it was explosive in a call with these moderate Democrats who are genuinely just concerned that he wasn't getting the right data, that they had to break through his bubble to really show him. I have some reporting that Chrissy Houlihan, a congresswoman from Pennsylvania, said to him, you know, you're down four to five points in my state. And he didn't believe her. A source told me that when he says that it's not that he doesn't believe her, it means he doesn't give a fuck. And he thinks that things will change.

He believes that in a few weeks that the dust will settle, the polls will change. And the thing that I've been told is he can squint. And because the popular vote is so close, he thinks he can see victory. You know what I mean? And in some ways, Democrats say they wish that he was down by 10 points because it'd be easier.

And they're just not there yet. I mean, there are some Democrats, including people fairly close to this White House, who like when he did his NATO press conference the other week, they were rooting for him to fail.

That's insane. Because they were just like, let's get like rip the bandaid off. Like, let's get like, let's get this over with. Don't make this pain. Don't make it a death by a thousand cuts. Make it make it a quick death. Right. Right. Like Joe Biden. Yeah. I mean, you can say a lot about him. Like Joe Biden has a lot of resilience to him. And that's also part of his mythology. Right. And.

And so, you know, and I agree with you to your point. It's not like this is not going to end with a few leaks about Jeffrey, Hakeem Jeffries, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer. It's going to get more. You saw even just like a little, like there's a little, you know, hook today with Jamie Raskin, who I don't think Joe Biden cares what Jamie Raskin thinks about anything, but doesn't care about what he thinks about his political career. But he, you know, Jamie Raskin,

all of a sudden we found out there was this letter that he sent to Joe Biden that basically said, like, let's, you know, call it, you know, and, but it's going to be more. And I think you could end up seeing like a real, like,

There is a world in which you see in the next two weeks a full on civil war between Joe Biden and the leadership of his party. I was told this is a pressure campaign and it will not end. But again, the point is, like, it's a pressure campaign, but it is almost impossible to take the nomination away from him. The leaks are what you said this early on when we spoke right after the debate. You were like, it's the leaks that are going to take him now.

I don't think he will be able to speak to anyone without it leaking from this point forward. And like you talked about the conversation with the new Dems. I mean, that call, even with the... Let's take out the Bronze Star conversation. Some of the other stuff he was saying when...

You're talking about no one else could have done what I've done with NATO. No one else. You know, if you can read the transcript. Name a better leader on NATO. No one has done more for foreign policy than me. Yeah. You sound like Trump. It was very like I'm the indispensable leader. And and you can read the full transcript at Puck.com. Yeah. Because Julia Hoffey got the full got the video. But it was, you know, it rattled a lot of Democrats. Wait, that was Puck.news, by the way. Puck.news.

- Pucked up news, I apologize. I am a subscriber, so. - Yeah. - But yeah, I mean, it shook a lot of Demps to see, 'cause they don't get a lot of, most people don't get a lot of access to Joe Biden, and seeing him speak that way, they were like, whoa.

This is, you know, just something that a lot of people use that word. And yeah, so to your point, like every single meeting he has now, I mean, this is the argument for Joe Biden is just not going to be able to survive this because every single meeting he has is going to be, every single person that wants to get him out of the race is going to like either record it or like leak it and

And it could be really bad. Okay, but the people who are still with him, Jill, Hunter, right? Yep. And Hunter is dug in, I'm told. That is my understanding. What are you hearing about the inner circle? Because I've noticed that the inner circle is starting to break off a little bit. And some people that are in the inner circle are claiming they are no longer part of the inner circle anymore. So if you want to get a little wonky, so the inner circle...

was the family right so it's like hunter jill then like these two obscure aides that most people don't know names anthony bernal who's jill biden's long time top aide who has incredible influence throughout the west wing unlike any east wing aid we have seen in a very very long time um then you have annie tomasini who's deputy chief of staff but is basically was oval off oval

office operations director before that really controls the paper flow in an extraordinary way and his like schedule and then you have mike donald and bruce reed steve rachetti they're sometimes called the gray hairs the poobahs these are like the the the old white guys that have been with joe biden for a long long time and that he relies on their they're closer to family so that that inner circle is still there and there's deep concerns from

senior leadership Democrats that because of their affection for Joe Biden, their closeness, the relationship, because they're friends with him, they are yes men. They do not bring him bad news. So, but you're talking about the splintering. So that's the core that's still there. The splintering is that, you know, the people like chief of staff, Jeff science, uh, chief communications, a,

Aide Anita Dunn, her husband, Bob Bauer, the president's lawyer, former chief of staff Ron Klain. The people who should be closest to him right now. These are often considered, at least in D.C. world, sometimes like the adults in the room are definitely much more willing to give the president bad news. But they are not considered family in the same way that those other aides are. And as a result, they are not. Joe Biden's team is like sort of.

down with the people that they consider family and then the aides that they consider family. Wow. Just so you know, he is being almost coddled in a way. The word that's most often used by other Biden aides is shrewdness.

Sheltered. Sheltered, okay. And Anthony Bernal and Annie Tomasini, they have actually been subpoenaed. Congress has subpoenaed them because of their role, because they're often the only people who are allowed in the residency, in the White House residency and after hours. I spoke to some people on the campaign, say the morale is dismal. They feel like they're on standby. They've done all the things that you've reported, the new stairs, the 8 p.m. curfew. They've really said that they have...

Billy tried to like

acquiesce around this candidate. They maybe traveled twice a week with him, maybe once a week. At most, one event on that day when Obama was traveling, it was three, four times a week, few events each time. And I've heard that, yeah, he has declined, but it seems to be more precipitous lately. That's what they're seeing right now. And yeah, there's just a feeling of like, what is going on right now? Are we on the sinking ship? And so there's a real morale issue right now. Yeah, well, and there's, and the morale issue goes,

A few people have mentioned this, where Biden's age was clearly a concern for a lot of voters. And if you work on this campaign, you're talking to friends and family and they'll be like, well, you know, is he with it? Is he like, is the age an issue? And a lot of these people that are working for Joe Biden, even though they haven't spent a lot of time with him, they were validators within their own sort of social group for that Joe Biden is with it. And now they look stupid. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's this feeling that a lot of people describe to me in the Biden campaign and in the White House, this feeling of disillusionment.

I'm feeling that the senior leadership was not completely candid with them about the president's. That's how they feel on the Hill, too. Yeah. I was told there is like deep, deep anger towards the inner circle or what is perceived to be the inner circle or even the people who are just considered the adults in the room. They're angry. I mean, like the, you know, the C word comes up with Democrats meaning cover up.

which is not all Democrats, but definitely some, and feeling like there was a culture of dishonesty. - In fairness though,

I mean, those Democrats, they had their opportunities to see Biden, a lot of them, the higher ranking ones. And they didn't flag. They didn't, you know, they could have spoken out. I mean, Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer, like, you know, like a lot of these Democrats that are saying now they're there. They watch the debate and they came out and they're like, it's not just one bad day.

And I was like, well, that must mean that you've seen other bad days before then and you didn't say anything. Exactly. So why did you not say anything? So to your point, it's very convenient now to be like, well, after the debate, it's obvious to everybody that this is a bigger issue. Right.

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So what's your gut say? I mean, my sources say it's going to happen soon. I mean, I thought it might even happen tonight, to be honest. I thought it could happen in the next few days, but you think it'll take longer. So my head says that he'll drop out, but I am and I acknowledge that I'm a bit on an island here, I think. But my gut says that he's going to stay in. Wow.

I don't know how he gets to the place psychologically to drop out. This is crazy. That's the thing that keeps stopping. That's why my gut, just knowing. You know him so well. I've read Promise Me Dad four times and listened to the audiobook twice. Oh, God.

I've never heard that again. I've dedicated far too many hours of my life to studying this man. And so like, I guess that's why my gut is like, I just don't, but this is not me reporting it. It's just like, you asked me what my gut says and like my head's like, he can't, this is not sustainable. But my gut is like,

He just is not going to say uncle. Right. You know what? And Alex is one of the foremost reporters on Biden. He's been calling him out on all the changes, the way that they've been, you know, working around his apparent aging. The fact that he's 81 years old, there's no crime in that. Right. And he's really been ahead of the curve. So I take that analysis and that, you know, prediction seriously. Yeah.

I don't know. I feel like the hell leadership is really dug in, but it's a war. Completely agree. We're in the middle of a war really right now. It's a cold war turning increasingly hot. Oh yeah. It was like, like they had like Adam Schiff sent out there that was like sort of like the third world country that like the communists and capitalists were fighting over. Like that was like the, like they're having, but now you're, you're getting closer and closer to like Pelosi and Biden in a hot war. And that, that would be something if it really turns out that way. Damn. Yeah.

Anything else looking forward? I got a feel also that Biden watched Trump's speech tonight and was like, I can beat that guy. You think so? I mean, because he was so subdued. Right. But was he also like, he sounds a little bit more presidential? Maybe. I think it drives him nuts. I think like Joe, like it was the same reaction you saw Joe Biden have during the debate with Donald Trump when Donald Trump was also being restrained. And Joe Biden was like,

this isn't the real Trump. You know, he seemed a little flustered. What's funny is that a former Trump aide said to me that Trump is goading Biden right now. He is daring him not to drop out.

that's what he's doing through Truth Social and that you should look at his tweets that way. That's interesting. Yeah, he doesn't want Biden out. And maybe that's why, maybe he intentionally gave a boring speech because he was like, you can beat me. Come on. Yeah, no, that would be the worst thing to happen to them. I don't care what they say. This is not a good thing for them. For who? The Trump campaign for them to swap out Biden. I mean, Democrats have no good options, but yeah, I mean, I think...

Like if you're ahead and this race has been stable and you're ahead for basically eight to nine months, why would you add an element of risk? Yeah, of course. There's an X factor. Yeah. I think even Kamala. I mean, she could definitely. Yeah. She definitely has more appeal among like younger voters, especially like well-educated progressives. Like she would definitely add energy to the ticket in a way that is lacking right now.

Alex, always a pleasure. Love having you on the show. Really appreciate your updates. Behind enemy lines at the Politico. You know what? I don't think they really care anymore. But it is always funny to think about it that way, right? We love Politico. We do love Politico. We're grateful for the opportunities they gave us. I worked there for over four years. They're great. I moved to Brussels for them. That is not, I would never have done that.

It was great. It was the best experience of my life. Oh, that's great. No, it really was. It was one of the best professional experiences. We built Politico Europe and I got to see all, I got to go all over Europe, make friends in every country and it was amazing. So I'm, and I'm grateful. And then I came back for a second tour to do Playbook. So,

I'm the prodigal Politico. You never know. There's always a third time, right? Well, Politico Europe editors, let me know. It sounds like a pretty fun experience. It was really great. All right, Alex, thanks again. This was another episode of Somebody's Gotta Win. I'm your host, Tara Palmieri.

Reporting from the Republican National Convention. It's the last day. It's over. But I'll still be updating in case there's breaking news over the weekend. I want to thank my producers, Christopher Sutton and Connor Nevins. If you like this show, please subscribe, rate it, share it with your friends. If you like my reporting, please go to puck.news slash Tara Palmieri. You can use the discount code Tara20 for 20% off a subscription to Puck. See you next week.