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Hi, I'm Tara Palmieri. I'm Puck's senior political correspondent, and this is Somebody's Gotta Win.
We've got a newsy show for you. Andrew Yang is on the line. He ran for president back in 2020, and he had this universal basic income platform. Give every American $1,000 a month, even at his own Yang Gang. It was sort of an internet movement, Andrew Yang. He then went on to run for mayor of New York City in 2021, and at one point was the frontrunner. At that point, he ran as a Democrat. And he was a Democrat.
But now he's a voice for third parties. He started his own third party called the Forward Party, and he's calling for rank choice voting as a way to disrupt the party system, to keep extremists out of both parties that tend to win the primaries and also to shake it up so that incumbents don't win election after election. So it's not surprising that in this election he was courted by a third party, no labels.
and that RFK Jr. asked him to be his running mate. In this episode, he speaks out about it for the first time, giving us the details about how that all went down. But this is the interesting part. Despite starting his own third party, he is warning voters against voting for a third party candidate or an independent candidate like Jill Stein, Cornel West, or RFK Jr. in the presidential election coming up. Andrew, thanks for coming on the show. We first talked about this back in...
in, I believe it was January or February when I saw you at an event for Dean Phillips in New Hampshire. What happened with Dean Phillips? You were behind him, but he was a Democrat. You know, he's not a third party candidate and he voted with Biden 90% of the time. What were you thinking about throwing your own name brand and weight behind him when you're a proponent of third parties?
I'm for good things, for good people, and I'm an anyone but Trump guy. I thought that Dean would make a much stronger...
general election candidate and a contrast with Trump than the president. And, you know, for people who are currently nervous about November, I dare say that having a fresh faced 52 year old who would help provide a very different dynamic
might not be the worst proposition. I think that Dean's decision to run was a noble one based on patriotism. I was glad to support him. And your being in New Hampshire with us, I mean, you saw the energy on the ground. It was a lot of fun.
You know, we got to 19 percent after only six weeks of campaigning because there are a lot of folks in New Hampshire that were listening. But why didn't he end up like catching fire? I mean, in New Hampshire, that's a decent amount. And obviously, I think New Hampshire had a certain temperature. They were kind of riled up against Biden for changing the primary calendar so that they were no longer the first state for a.
a primary. So I did sense a lot of anti-Biden sentiment on the ground, which I think he was able to catapult, but he didn't really move forward. But why do you think no one else challenged Biden? You know, and this is a frustration of mine, Tara, where
I said in my endorsement speech of Dean, I said, Gavin Newsom, Gretchen Whitmer, J.B. Pritzker, you're missing your moment, that this is the time to run and that biding your time for 28 may or may not be the best idea, given that one, your country needs you right now. Number two,
careerism is not a good look. And number three, in 2028, there's going to be Westmore and Josh Shapiro and you're not going to be like the person on the moment. Shiny new toys. Yeah. Yeah. This is the moment. I believed that in January when I gave that speech, I believe it now. You know, it's like in my view, the Democratic Party
failed us by not having a more robust nomination contest. And if one of the major governors had stepped into that,
then they could have forced that kind of conversation. I mean, Biden is and was uniquely weak as a candidate. So it probably would have been an opportunity to make that move. I think everyone was worried at the time that they would be excommunicated from the Democratic Party, that they would lose their fundraisers, lose their future. But you know what?
Waiting on the bench is risky. It's just as risky as jumping in, right? And if people saw that Dean jumping in was an opening and to follow him, I think, yeah, you're right. It could have been a very different outcome. Well, you know, it depends upon what risk you're running. Are you risking your own political prospects and career? Are you risking pushing the country to Trump?
And this is the argument that really did pain me, Tara, where people were like, oh, if you run, you're going to weaken the Democratic Party or weaken Biden and thus make it easier for Trump to win. I believed the opposite. I thought that having... I said, look, if we have a competitive...
nomination process and Joe emerges from it, then at least he would have been put through the paces and we'd all maybe have a different feeling. I also, by the way, suggested something else that I thought was a great idea. And I'm going to now pitch it to you. I said, OK, if you're not going to have a real nomination contest, you should have a nomination contest for who Joe's running mate should be.
because realistically he's going to be 82 this year. He runs for reelection. At least let the party pick its new standard bearer that we can all say, okay, this person is going to be the heir apparent. And then folks would say, well, what about Kamala? And I said, she can run too. You know, like she should run. And then you could have had a whole series of debates and people choosing the successor. And you could have had your cake and eaten it too, so to speak.
But that idea also was obviously dismissed and ignored. You know, the core constituency of the Democratic Party is African-American women, and they might feel like she was being pushed aside or being treated differently than prior vice presidents if that happened.
I could blow it back in their face. I mean, there's two sides to every story and idea, but I agree with you. There is a feeling of unhappiness with the candidates on both sides, right? And if Joe Biden had a competitive primary, then maybe people would think, well, this is our candidate. But there is a lot to be said about our primary processes anyway, right? Which you've been talking a lot about in terms of ranked choice voting and how to find less extreme candidates. Yeah, we often wind up with candidates that a lot of us are not pleased by because you have a real...
minority of Americans participating in the party primaries, I think if you had a better process, we'd have a better choice. Yeah. I do want to talk about what it was like for you to get that call from RFK Jr. back in February, asking if you would want to be his running mate. What was that like? Oh, wow, Tara, I haven't spoken about this. And part of the deference to various folks involved
But it is public that he and I spoke, and it was obviously flattering. At the time we spoke, Dean was still a candidate, and I did tell him, I was like, look, man, I'm literally stepping for Dean over here, so let's push this down the road a little bit. And as someone who's been a candidate myself,
you want to be very, very deferential to candidate time because it's this invaluable resource to the campaign and his team. Right. Well, he needed a running mate at that point because to get on the ballot in various States, you need to have a running mate, especially when you're running on your own party ticket or as an independent. So it wasn't actually a flat out denial. Then when he called you, you were just like, I need some time. Was that what you were thinking? Or were you saying, no, there's no way. Well, I,
I said at the time, look, man, like, uh, the, I can't even consider this right now. Cause I'm literally going to go on TV and, uh, a stump for Dean Phillips in an hour or something like that. Was he like, well, when Dean's out of the race, give me a call. Oh, well there was like, uh, you know, let's continue to talk, but that, that's that, that,
is just common courtesy. Yeah. Common courtesy. What do you think of him though? I mean, you guys have a lot of different positions like on vaccines, like you believe in vaccine passports. He's been pretty open against vaccinations. I mean, you have obviously the same love of disrupting the party and the party systems and allowing people new choices and the idea of changing our political system. But like, what else do you guys have in common?
That would make you the right running mate. We do have a lot of people in common, a lot of energy in common, a lot of folks who are discontent with
the two parties and what we're being offered. I get asked all the time about my own involvement. And one thing I do say is that, look, like our current system right now doesn't really accommodate new entrants very openly. And that's a massive problem. It's one reason why so many people are going to feel like they have to hold their nose and choose whoever they find less unappealing.
And in a more open system, I think you'd see better candidates, better policies, more vibrance, more dynamism. And that's something that a lot of RFK supporters and I share. I mean, it's something that I'm still striving for and fighting for. There are four states that are
voting to get rid of their party primaries this November. And so if you had, let's call it eight US senators who all of a sudden didn't have their party primaries, I think you'd have better
better leadership, better policy. And then if that got to the presidential level, man, then all sorts of awesome people would run because you couldn't try and bully them off the stage and say, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler. Right. What do you think of, of RFK Jr though? I've only met him a couple of times. Um, but, uh,
admire a lot of what he's trying to accomplish. I don't know him as well as I know a lot of other people in the field, frankly. Would you ever invite him to be a part of the forward party? Do you think he would work with what you're going for? Oh, the forward party is a very big tent. And if he were to be championing the structural reforms that we're for and also want to work with other people that might disagree with him on various fronts, no, then sure. To me, it's
going to be up to a lot of Americans rallying together to say, look, this game is set up not to deliver good lives for us and our families and our communities, but it's set up to inflame and aggravate us against each other and to deliver re-election to people who are
already entrenched to various corporate interests who figured out that this system is actually pretty straightforward to game and they're crouching there. So we're going to need a lot of hands on deck to create a new path and new alternative.
And there are a lot of folks, I think, that, again, RFK and I have in common. Yeah, I just think that if you want to run as an independent candidate or on a new party ticket or even on an existing one, it seems like you have to be independently wealthy yourself. Oh, yeah. I mean, if you look at RFK, he's freaking American royalty. You know what I mean? Right, right.
a person on the street decided to do what he's doing, it obviously goes nowhere. It's one of the reasons why so many Americans are frustrated and been up honestly, where you look around and be like, who the heck can do anything about this situation?
And there's a lot of hostility towards people who are really wealthy. It's like Ross Perot. You get those kind of vibes when you think of it in some ways. Yeah, but on the flip side, without that kind of wealth, it's a non-starter practically for a lot of folks. So we're kind of stuck. It's one reason why I'm grateful to the people who got behind me, Tara, because...
We managed to raise the resources to be competitive and it genuinely was a popular movement. And that's getting harder and harder to fashion, particularly in local races. I talk to local candidates all the time
who are giving it a go and it's rough. Uh, you know, so I'm, I'm, I'm grateful to everyone who believed in my ability to accomplish anything positive. But you did have to start through the democratic party though. You'd launched your career that way and then moved over. Yeah, that's true. I mean, you know, I was a Democrat for decades, uh,
And when people ask me about my politics now, I say, I just want good things for good people, which is, in my opinion, the vast majority of people, which is one of the problems.
You know, I happen to think that most people are good. And I don't think right now our political system wants to deliver good things for enough of us. Are you worried, though, that a candidate like RFK Jr. or Jill Stein or Cornel West, now RFK apparently is on the ballot in Pennsylvania and the other two may as well get on the ballot there, that they could throw the race to Trump because these races will be decided by just a handful of voters in these swing states. Yeah.
and that they tend to take from, you know, democratic voters. Practically. Yeah. It's a concern and it makes me feel terrible for, uh, voters who want to express themselves in a particular way and then are left saying, wait a minute, if I vote for this person, I really like, um, I might enable something bad to happen. And it's one reason why, frankly, I personally would not run. Um, because if I did, I would empower the opposite of myself. Uh,
You know, like when someone asked me, hey, how do we keep Trump from winning, which I see as the goal, like I do not want to see Trump return to the Oval Office. I say, honestly, the best approach would be to run someone to his right, run someone who is more blatantly racist and just say Trump too subtle for you. We've got this guy, you know, and you get a couple of points.
at the margins and that probably helps dip it. But is there really anyone to the far right of him? I guess Ron DeSantis tried to be that person, but ultimately Trump has a cult following that I don't think anyone can really run to the right of. Well, I mean, you could find a person. What I'm saying though is that- Steve Bannon or someone?
You know, I mean, like some white nationalist, you know, who wanted a megaphone. But the point is that if you wanted to reduce the chance of Trump winning, that would actually be a very practical thing. And if you have someone running, let's say, on the far left, then it probably at the margins ends up increasing the chances of Trump winning. And that's perverse. It's messed up. It makes voters frustrated and angry. But that is the practical thing.
impact in our current system. What does your gut say, though, about RFK Jr. and the voters he's attracting? Do you think they take from Trump or do you think they take from Biden? I'm not a gut guy, Tara. I'm a numbers guy. Oh, really? I feel like politics is about your gut for me, like my feelings about things. You know, maybe it's one reason why I'm a deeply flawed politician, but I'm a... That's not true.
Hey, you were the front runner for mayor. Well, thank you for saying so. You know, I was at a Ranked Choice Voting event this week and I said, thanks to Ranked Choice Voting, I'm your mayor today. And it got a good laugh because I'm a huge proponent of Ranked Choice Voting. I think it's one of our
paths out of this mess. But if you look at the numbers in terms of who RFK takes from, they can tell both stories truly. And then both campaigns act like he's going to hurt them because of the uncertainty. And if you are on a campaign, you dislike uncertainty. I will say that right now, in my estimation, Trump still is in the lead. And so if you are the team that's down, you probably should be a little bit more open to uncertainty.
But the numbers that I've seen that I found most compelling were that RFK is strong among Latino voters, which makes it such that Arizona and Nevada are less winnable for Biden. I mean, your vote doesn't matter, my vote doesn't matter. The only votes that matter are Arizona and Nevada.
Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Georgia. And then some people will argue North Carolina's in that mix, which I don't think it is. So you're looking at six states. And so if you want to say, hey, who does RFK hurt? You just have to dig deep into the numbers in those six states. Okay. And he's getting on the ballot in those states. So that's the real question mark. I mean, you hear the libertarian chair saying she wanted a third party to stop
Biden. How do you feel about that when you hear these third party chairman saying that they're using their parties not to advance their own candidates, but to stop other candidates? They're basically justifying the idea that third parties are spoilers or tools. Again, it's the perversion of the system. It's not wrong. You know, it's like, again, if I were to run the most rancid human being I could find, it would probably be a good thing. If I could find the most noble, pure,
public servant to run, it'd probably be a bad thing. I mean, how messed up is that? And so it's one reason why people are very aggravated and fed up by this system. But we can have better choices if we just have a better, more open system. And I think that's what Americans should be clamoring for. It seemed like you were almost inviting Nikki Haley into the forward party when she made that statement about why she's going to vote for Trump. And you said, this is why we need third parties.
Were you sort of inviting her into the idea of running on the forward ticket? Well, I was just very disappointed by Nikki Haley's public stance because she spends months campaigning against Trump. I don't think she thinks Trump would make a good president. She'll probably be in his administration. I think she'd say no to Secretary of State. So this is the problem, Tara, is that everyone's political incentives aren't to fall in line. And so if you're Nikki Haley, check it out. No, their political incentives are their ambition. And those are the same thing. Okay, fine. Check it out. I'm Nikki Haley.
And, you know, I have a choice now to say, hey, I'm going to vote for Trump or I'm not going to vote for Trump. And if you say you're going to vote for Trump, you remain a Republican. You remain in good standing with the party. Maybe Trump gives you a job. Maybe if Trump loses, then you're the heir apparent. And then you can say, hey, I kind of told you so. And then you can run again. If you say,
I'm not going to vote for Trump. I think he'd make a terrible president, which, by the way, in my opinion, on some level, that's what Nikki Haley believes. Clearly, she wouldn't have run against him if she didn't think that way, right? Yeah. And there are, you know, at this point, dozens of people who used to work in the Trump administration who are like, this guy would be a terrible president. Let's not have him back. I have a feeling that Nikki's in that camp. But she, you know, put her finger in the wind and said, well, what is my political future? My political future is relying upon Republicans, at least somewhat politically.
liking and accepting me. So let me just say I'm going to vote for Trump in, by the way, a very carefully orchestrated...
like event that she's on the chair and she's being interviewed by someone who's also there. It's not like she's dealing with it. Yeah, I know. It was her first moment to speak. Yeah. So, so if there was a, again, like a, let's say even a third party, um, and then folks like Nikki Hanley or Larry Hogan, uh, or Chris Anunu or all of those folks who clearly don't like Trump, uh,
But they're all going to vote for him, they've said. Yeah, yeah. And that's the problem. But so if there was another place for them to go, but right now, if you were to say, look, I'm out on Trump, your political career is over as a Republican. And it's not like Democrats are all of a sudden going to say like, oh, you know, like, let me check you out. So those are the incentives we have. And so you wind up with someone like Nikki Haley saying something that, in my opinion, she did not believe.
because she realized that that was better for her politically. And we have political figures making these choices all the time, and it's killing us. I also think it makes Trump more popular because the perception is that Trump says what he believes, right? And if you have a politician who's making a calculated decision after running against Trump, say that they will then vote for Trump, you suddenly put them in the bucket of, oh, she's just a craven politician, right? Like people can see through that. They're not dumb. Yeah, yeah. The quote unquote authenticity of Trump,
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You know, something else you tweeted was interesting. You said after the guilty verdict last week, another day, another felony conviction. What did you mean by that? Well, I woke up the next day thinking, OK, like Donald Trump is convicted of 34 felonies. And then the the historical magnitude of it hit me. And so, you know, the post was just tongue in cheek being like, oh, you know, like another day, another day.
um another felony conviction uh and so it was uh trying to point out the gravity of the situation we're in by momentarily making light of it so that you'd reflect on it for a second and be like wait where are we um and i wrote a post about this uh the same day uh about the fact that look in this era everything normalizes quickly and uh you know i think that
It's not going to fundamentally alter the dynamics of this race. He raised $34 million in the 24 hours afterwards.
And people who think that this is going to make it so he loses to Joe, I think are going to be disappointed. I think you're right about that. Do you think Democrats should be hyping it up and being like, he's a convicted felon? He doesn't deserve to be on the ballot. Should every time they mentioned Donald Trump's name, should they be saying convicted felon Donald Trump? Or should they just let it lie and let the conviction speak for itself?
From what I have gathered from my reporting, Democrats aren't sure how to message around this. Yeah, I'm not sure who you convince that's a new. And again, this is going to come down to 50 to 100,000 voters in the swing states. And so really, the major question is, what is the high school educated welder in Wisconsin think? And if you can figure out that, OK, that welder dislikes the idea of voting for a convicted felon, then maybe you lean into it.
if it turns out that that high school educated welder thinks that the charges against Trump were political and bullshit. And every time you remind them of him, it just pisses them off.
then maybe you shouldn't talk about it. I don't think that they want to vote for a convicted felon. I don't think anyone wants to do that. But I think that people who still want to vote for Trump are going to tell themselves it was a Democratic DA in New York City, and they're going to say it's a politically motivated thing. So for Democrats, you want to feed into that. That is the problem. But again, I'm something of a data guy. So, you know, someone needs to dig into the
the very, very narrow sliver of genuinely still persuadable voters in Wisconsin and Michigan and Pennsylvania and figure out what's going to hit with them. And this is, by the way, one of the weaknesses of this campaign and the Democrats, in my opinion, is they just seem to be talking about stuff that they care about. And I feel like it's persuading very, very few people. It's not what the voters care about, you think? Or it's not what this sliver of, you know, let's call it. Yeah.
4% or 5% of voters are focused on. I mean, the sense of things is that those people are focused on why their groceries are expensive, why their kids are depressed, why it feels like things are slipping away from them as opposed to getting better. And some of those things are cultural and media-driven, and some of those things are...
cost of living and facts of life and how much of that has to do with uh you know uh trump's legal troubles you know maybe not a whole lot um and so you have to stop thinking that it's about what you and your tribe value and try and reach uh like the other splinter tribes that are going to decide this race what if the tribe doesn't come out for biden like his base
I think that they're having a hard time with that as well. Talking to the splinter and their tribe at the same time. I mean, this latest immigration executive order was obviously a way to talk to that splinter because they're concerned about immigration and, you know, progressives and the Hispanic caucus are saying, you know, you're closing the border. What's that all about? I mean, there's risks to all of this. I think that just about everyone in the Democratic base detests Trump and are going to show up and vote against him. Um,
That's my perception. And if you're going to eke out a win in these swing states, I mean, if you spend time in Michigan, PA and Wisconsin, you know, like the voters you need to reach, most of them are not college educated. Like the college educated voters, you pretty much have like the suburban voters in these states, you pretty much have. So I'm sure that some of the policies we're seeing are being calibrated because they're
you know, they know who they need to win and they're going to count on their base to turn out. I think their base is going to turn out, whether it's detesting Trump or abortion or some other issue. They're just not going to be able to sit it out and be like, you know what, I'm going to, you know, let my frustration amount to like a tacit approval of Trump returning. Would you tell them not to vote for Jill Stein?
or Cornel West or RFK Jr. Well, if you're in the 44 non-swing states, what you do really will probably not matter. And if it does matter, the whole thing is going to go the other way anyway. But if you are in the swing states... If you are in the swing states, you should think very carefully about how you're voting because this thing is going to get decided by tens of thousands of votes. I mean, listen, I have a girlfriend who has, you know...
MBA, very successful. I asked her, you know, how are you going to vote? She would probably be a Trump voter, but also probably voted for Obama at the same time. And, you know, I asked her, how are you going to vote post-conviction? She's like, I think I'm going to vote for RFK. And I was like, you do know that that's probably a vote for Trump.
And she was like, not a lot of people have really thought about this. If I live in a swing state, I am going to avoid having that state go to Trump. And so I agree with you. Voting for a third party candidate in those states is not something I would advise my friends to do. Okay. I have a question. And I feel like you would know about this because you come from the tech bro world. Why?
Why are they having a love affair with Trump right now? You know, I think a lot of it, Tara, is that we live in this bifurcated system and they feel like one side doesn't like them or is out on them in various ways. And so they're getting...
um, moved towards quote unquote, like the, the Trump side, I disagree with this fundamentally. I think Trump would be a terrible president. And I think that is independent of any slings and arrows you might take from, from, uh, the media or whatnot, like at any given day, it's like, look, you know, this guy shouldn't be president.
But unfortunately, I think some folks in Silicon Valley think Trump's going to win, have various business interests, and have decided to go with that team. In part, again, because I think that they feel like they've been taking incoming hostility from the left forward.
Or the media. They call it the woke mind virus, right? They feel like they're pariahs, essentially, even though they're billionaires, which is kind of a weird thing, right? To me, look, I do think that there are irrationalities born of the ideological left. But that doesn't mean I think Trump should be fucking president. You know what I mean? And again, I think that's an evil of the two-sided system. But this is a case that
to me is pretty easy to make. And any of my friends in Silicon Valley, if I talk to them and I say, look, I think Trump's a non-starter. I think that's a disaster. But there are folks that I have been surprised by who have decided to head that direction. I find it deeply troubling and disappointing. Do you think you've got it out of your system or are you going to run again for office? Well, it wasn't really in my system to begin with, Tara. Yeah.
Could have fooled me. You know, it's like, like, it's not like I had some deep seated childhood desire to hold a particular office or any of that. I mean, like I'm just someone who wants to make good things happen for people. I'm still grinding away. So one thing I will share with you that I'm particularly proud of that no one gives a shit about, but I care about deeply is.
is that I thought the enhanced child tax credit of 21 was the best thing we'd done in a public policy standpoint for a generation, lifted several million American kids out of poverty, made people healthier, mentally healthier. Because of our dysfunctional political system, we undid it in 22. And I have folks in D.C. who are now working on a partial revival that passed this House of Representatives bill
by over 100 votes. I think it got something like 350, 390 votes. It had some business stuff in there too, some like tax credits. And now it's stuck in the Senate because a Republican senator won the record said we don't want to give Biden a win. So that's an evil of the system. But if we can bring back an enhanced child tax credit that helps lift hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of American kids out of poverty,
I'll sleep better at night, you know? So that, that's the kind of thing that I am grinding away on. And, you know, like that's what motivates me. I mean, there's like the toxicity and the politics and the rest of it. I mean, you know, like I met a lot of Americans around the country who are just look up and just like shake their heads at the system. But if we can get some more money into poor families hands, then that's a pure win. Well,
Well, this was really interesting. I want to ask you one last thing about RFK. I know you don't want to spend the whole time talking about him, but you do have a line to him, which not a lot of people have. And he clearly respects you or he wouldn't have tried to get you on as his running mate. Have you been advising him since? Have you talked to him at all? You know, again, as someone who's been a candidate, like you really want to be respectful of candidate time. Yeah.
But you probably have some thoughts on... So one of the things that's kind of irritating when you're the candidate is like, you know, it's like, let me like, you know, I mean, shoot. We have a lot of people in common. You know, I think that he is catalyzing a lot of energy that I hope finds a productive channel for
over time. It seems like it's like your constituency in a big way. He has a lot of the same followers. I think that's right. I get messages to that effect just about every day. And I wish we had a system that accommodated more candidates and more ideas and parties and hopes for the future. And that's what I'm working on every day. And I think a lot of
folks that support RFK are going to end up finding their way in the same direction. Would you advise him not to run and to drop out? Well, I think he said at various points, like he's not going to be a spoiler and he also isn't a fan of certain outcomes. But one of the things also as a candidate, Tara,
Like, you know, I have never, ever called for a candidate to drop out because I think it's like a deeply personal decision. I mean, it's a deeply personal decision to run. You put up with so much stuff. And then if someone's like, oh, you shouldn't be there, drop out. I mean, half the time, some other campaign has like, you know, like a hand in them saying that. And so you're a little bit like, well, what the heck is going on? I mean, yeah.
And there have been times, I will say to you, that I have thought, hey, maybe this person might want to consider another...
course of action, but I've never been someone to call for it because I've been in the field. You know, I've had certainly any number of people say that about me. And at the time I was there stumping away in Iowa and New Hampshire, seeing people on the trail every day, having people
volunteer, having people donate 20 bucks in a way that was significant to them. And so you see that devotion and belief and effort and exertion. And then you have some person who is on the outside being like, oh, you shouldn't be running. You shouldn't be there. And you're like, who are you to say I'm here fighting the fight? And so I have a lot of respect for the folks who are deciding to fight the fight because the vast majority of us
know that something's up, something's missing. I think your podcast is even called Someone Has to Win. I mean, you know, you look at this. Yeah, exactly. Because I think people feel that way. This was created back in August. And I had that feeling about the gestalt of the whole entire election. I had a feeling Trump was going to win the primaries, that there was going to be no real Biden challenger, and we were going to be exactly where we were. And two thirds of Americans were going to be like,
what are we doing here? But then realizing they have to go out and vote. You are a wise human being. You were right on all counts. By the way, X months ago, I was right there with you. Like, you know, I actually said, I think it's Trump. I think it's Biden. But here's the thing that pains me to say.
Tara, is that one of the reasons I was so eager to avoid this particular matchup is I think Trump wins. Yeah, I think you're right. I think there's a really good chance. And so in this face of it, like I am really, really frustrated by the fact that we're here, a place where you and I could call coming, you know, months and months ago.
And we're about to serve the country back to Trump, who's going to accelerate our disintegration. Totally avoidable. You know, if you'd run any of the governors I mentioned earlier, you probably beat Trump comfortably. But instead, we have, you know, who we have. It's crazy because I'm pretty sure that the only person who could lose to Trump is Biden. And the only person who could lose to Biden is Trump.
Isn't that kind of weird? Oh, no, it's not weird in this sense, Tara. And I said this too. I was like, whichever party can move on from its octogenarian nominee is going to win. And then both parties failed that test. So here we are. But it speaks to the mechanics of these parties more than anything else. But I also don't ever feel a real...
a verve for Biden. There's no one out there being like, I'm going to vote for Biden. I love Biden, but I do get that for Trump. And that's the difference. Don't you feel that people aren't marching outside with signs going Biden 2024, but they are for Trump. It's one reason why I have such a bleak feeling is that so big picture to Tara, this is really like the
grand trajectory we are on is that the Republican Party and Trump in particular have taken on this anti-institutional, burn it all down energy. And the Democrats have taken on the, no, it's working, things are functional, kind of defend the institutional energy. And so the problem though, is that the Democratic Party
had, in my opinion, like deeply dysfunctional, not terribly representative or lowercase d democratic nomination process. So it's like, hey, the institution's working. By the way, we're going to cancel primaries in Florida and North Carolina and show that we're not actually working. But then we're going to come and make the argument that we are working and
our candidate whose superpower is that he's a moral human being who will do the right thing for the country will now do the wrong thing for the country by running for reelection. Like let's vote for him. Like you're kind of like, they're going into this undermining their own essential argument. And so then we're, we're left then with this situation where everyone's going to like reluctantly, but it's going to be enough at the margins for that to be in my opinion, like the, the losing approach.
I do think the issue is that Biden, like you said, is...
the party establishment's pick. And Trump is not the party establishment's pick, but he actually beat the establishment through the primary process because Republicans did not want Trump again. They wanted DeSantis. They were over Trump. Really, if you asked anyone in the party, they just, they were done with him, but he won the primaries. So what are you going to do? Right? The grassroots wanted Trump. And this is exactly going back to what you were talking about with the primary process and ranked choice voting, but he is the most powerful Republican. And so the
the party has to bend to him. The party has become the MAGA party. And I don't think that in 2028, Nikki Haley is going to be the standard bearer of the party. That party's gone. That old GOP. Yeah, I agree that the GOP has factored. It's one reason why what I'm doing with forward is so fun is that we get folks who were principled Republicans who give up on the Republican party every day. And I think that's right. The Republican party is not coming back. It's not Nikki Haley's party.
it's going to be the Trump MAGA party after Trump is gone. If you think that you're getting the party back after Trump's gone, you're wrong. Sticking around is just a waste of time. Like you have to build something new. And folks like Governor Christy Todd Whitman of New Jersey, Lieutenant Governor Kerry Healy of Massachusetts, or his Mitz Lieutenant Governor have joined me at Ford because they have come to this conclusion and it's the right conclusion. The two party system is sick.
The Republican Party is lost. And the question is, what comes next?
And I am, as everyone can tell, like, I do not want Trump to be president. I will actually be actively trying to reduce the chances of him being president. And one real frustration of mine, Tara, is when you say something like, hey, I think Trump's going to win, which is what I do think. Some people will attack you and be like, oh, you can't say that because by your saying that you make it more likely to be true. And it's like, well, I happen to think by the numbers that it is. Oh, my God. People attack me.
all the time for saying this. I also thought he was going to win in 2016, but people attack him like, don't shoot the messenger. Go out and vote and do something. I'm doing my job. What are you doing? Yeah. I'm telling you the realities. Yeah.
Yeah, I'm going to be actively campaigning to reduce the chances of Trump winning in Pennsylvania and Nevada, like in various states, which is, by the way, more than most of like the freaking people who are like being like, oh, you can't say that. It's like then freaking join me in one of the swing states and maybe you do something about it. Get off the comments section of my Instagram and go do something. Yeah, like.
You know, so that's something that I find, like, you know, very, very troubling because, you know, I mean, the numbers are the numbers. Like, I'm willing to act on my beliefs, but...
You know, like I also want to be clear eyed about the landscape and what the odds are. Well, this was a great conversation. I'd love to have you back on the show. I think we need to check up a check in on the state of our democracy. And it's always interesting to hear your perspective, because I actually think that there's such a large, as they say, silent majority that agrees with you, that there feels like there's something wrong.
with the system and this is a really pinnacle moment where people may decide they need to wake up and change things so we will see or it'll just be more of the same i don't know hey tara i enjoyed this as well i would love to spend more time together since we're both in new york i actually saw you john heileman last night uh he was moderating a panel i was on which was fun oh um
At the New York Historical Society. It was very, very stately. Oh, very nice. But yeah, it seems like we're in New York. We should do something alive. And one thing I do want to mention to the folks who are listening is that I did give a TED Talk that came out last month about what's wrong with the American political system and how to fix it. It's got over a million views. If you want to understand why you're so frustrated, I think I lay it out. And then I also think I lay out something we can do about it because...
I'm a solutions-oriented person. I hate complaining about stuff while not doing anything about it. You know what? It was your TED Talk that re-upped my interest in getting you on the show because we talked about it back in New Hampshire and it was just like months had passed. And then I heard about your TED Talk to my friend who saw it live and then I watched it. It's 10 minutes. So everybody has 10 minutes to watch a TED Talk and it's really great. And then I actually bumped into your...
someone who works with you so it all kind of worked out great synchronicity to have you on the show the universe wanted this conversation to happen yeah exactly so everyone needs to share it and listen and watch the ted talk and share this episode all right thanks so much for coming on the show andrew and love to have you back
That was another episode of Somebody's Gotta Win. I'm your host, Tara Palmieri. I want to thank my producers, Christopher Sutton and Connor Nevins. If you like this show, please rate it, subscribe, share it with your friends. If you like my reporting, please sign up for my newsletter, The Best and the Brightest, by going to puck.news. You can use the discount code Tara20. I'll be back on Tuesday.