Introducing... Legacy
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Hey, guys, thanks for listening to the Restless Politics US. We're jumping in here because we'd love to tell you about one of our sister shows, Legacy, hosted by historian Peter Frankopon and broadcaster Afua Hirsch. It's an amazing podcast which delves into the lives of some of the most incredible people to have ever lived and asks if they have the reputation that they deserve.

So far, Peter and Afua have covered icons and leaders like Cleopatra, Napoleon, Picasso, Thatcher, giants of history whose legacies still impact us today. And there's even more to come. That's right, Katty. This season, they're looking into the life of arguably the most famous 20th century American president.

JFK, a man who was in office for just over a thousand days, but man, what a run. His presidency, including the space race, civil rights fights with industry bosses, and toughest of all, the threat of nuclear war against the Soviet Union. And it's pretty clear that some of these challenges haven't gone away, which is what makes this season especially relevant.

And with the American election coming up, even more so. We're about to play you a clip from episode three. It's about the Cuban Missile Crisis. When US intelligence discovered that the Soviet Union had planted nuclear missiles in Cuba, missiles capable of hitting the US in just minutes. When they told the president, a series of potentially catastrophic events unfolded. October the 24th, 1962, the White House.

Jack Kennedy stares into his brother Bobby's eyes across the busy Oval meeting table and hopes this isn't the meeting where he brings the world into a nuclear holocaust. It's been quite the week. Two days ago he announced to the nation that US spy planes had discovered Soviet missile bases on Cuba. Ordering a naval quarantine of the island, he warned that America would not stop short of military action to end this threat to world peace.

Now he has to hold his nerve in a terrifying game of diplomatic chess against his old enemy, Khrushchev. The United States is at DEFCON 2. Enemy attack expected. Next step: nuclear war. Kennedy tries to retain a commanding air as he asks his Secretary of Defence: "McNamara, can you update us?" Robert McNamara adjusts his glasses and announces: "Khrushchev says that the blockade is an act of aggression and he will not comply."

Jack sees worried looks on all faces around the table as McNamara talks through naval plans to intercept Soviet submarines. Down the end of the room, he spots John McCone, Director of Central Intelligence, being handed a slip of paper by an aide. He watches McCone's brow furrow as he reads the report.

Jack raises a hand to interrupt McNamara. "What news do you have, McCone?" he asks. McCone explains, "Mr President, I have a note just handed to me. It says we've just received information through the Office of Naval Intelligence that all six Soviet ships currently identified in Cuban waters have either stopped or reversed course." An audible gasp fills the room. Jack runs his hand through his hair and raises his eyes to the roof. Checkmate.

Secretary of State Dean Rusk fills the silence. Gentlemen, we're eyeball to eyeball, and I think the other fellow just blinked. Crikey.

I've got the hairs on the back of my neck standing up. Maybe I should have been an actor or maybe that's just, I mean, reading primary sources as a historian is so exciting. But when you're reading people's words and there's nothing being missed out and you get the tension in the room, I mean, what's at stake? And the communications have to work. What happens if information gets handed back wrong? Isn't relayed quickly enough? The what-ifs are amazing. And the scene is so palpable. This is Bobby's description of watching his brother in the Oval Office that day.

His hand went up to his face and covered his mouth and he closed his fist. His eyes were tense, almost grey, and we just stared at each other across the table. Was the world on the brink of a holocaust and had we done something wrong? I felt we were on the edge of a precipice and it was as if there was no way off.

It's so stressful. And even though the other fellow just blinked, it's not over yet, is it, Peter? No, I mean, first, there are still missiles in Cuba. So on the 26th of October, Kennedy decides he'll give it 48 hours and then decide whether an invasion or airstrikes should go ahead. The following day, on the 27th of October, a U-2 spy plane is shot down over Cuba, and its pilot, Rudolf Andersen, is killed. And

And so there's still pressure from the military. Now we've got to go in, they say. We've got to push for air attacks. They should begin on Monday. Suddenly we're back on the brink. After an EXCOMM meeting on the 27th of October, Bobby delivers a letter to the Soviet ambassador with US demands. And he warns the ambassador in person that if they don't accept, then they will start firing. That's the stick.

Then comes the carrot. But if you do withdraw the missiles, give it a few months and we'll take hours, because America has 15 missiles in Turkey, we'll take hours out of Turkey.

Every person at the EXCOMM meeting believes that if Khrushchev doesn't accept the terms, there's going to be war in Cuba. And where would that have ended? I mean, it's interesting when you go back through the telling of the Cuba missile crisis, the Soviet Union backed down, they agreed to withdraw their missiles from Cuba. It always gets read and presented as a kind of triumph of the bravery of Kennedy to stand up to an aggressor. But you could take a slightly different view, which is that

From the Soviet point of view, after the escalation happens of missiles going towards Cuba and the withdrawal, the deal is done to take these Jupiter missiles out of Turkey. So there's a reduction in pressure to the Soviet Union as a result.

But it gets presented as a sort of triumph of the free world done through the fact that the Americans are saying we will go to nuclear war if need be, which is a sort of first mover attempt to bully your adversary. But I'm not sure they could have done anything different. Not even if need be, Peter. I mean, the military generals really need to be singled out for some...

harsh words about their legacy. Tell us what Curtis LeMay says after this is all over. Curtis LeMay, the Air Force chief, is not congratulating Kennedy for averting nuclear holocaust. He's furious because he sees this as backing down. Go on. It's the greatest defeat in our history, he tells Kennedy. He argues

urges Kennedy to invade. And the president is literally dumbfounded. And he says, the military are mad. And I think he's right. And you know, it's interesting. I was looking into Curtis LeMay. There's still a very prestigious Air Force prize that gets given out in his name every year. He's still remembered as a hero. This is the person who

who tried to persuade a president who was capable of averting war that he should begin a nuclear conflict. It's actually crazy. Do you think that Kennedy's war record, his experience of the military, played a role in getting Kennedy to make the right call with the military? Do you think another president would have done things differently?

It definitely speaks to Kennedy's integrity and also his real experience, his experience of war, as you said. I think also the fact that he had small children, he often said he couldn't live with the idea of starting an avoidable nuclear conflict, knowing it would kill especially children who'd never voted, who'd never chosen any of these political actions. So I think that

had the humanity to understand in a way that people like Curtis LeMay clearly didn't. But also when you think about the Cuban Missile Crisis, it just seems so avoidable. I think that there was, again, this complete misunderstanding of the Soviet perspective.

Let's not forget that the Americans had tried so many times in so many different ways to assassinate the Cuban leader. And the Soviets partly put those missiles in Cuba to reassure Castro that they would protect him. And then at the same time, the Soviets had fallen out with the Chinese at this point. They were worried that Castro might side with China. So

there were so many reasons why they wanted the show of solidarity with Cuba, of putting missiles on the island, that didn't relate directly to wanting to start a nuclear war with America. I guess I take a slightly different view, which is that the Americans did understand the Soviet Union quite well. I think they did understand that it's dominated by an even bigger military-industrial complex than the United States in terms of what the Soviet economy was. They did understand that the Soviet Union was a place that didn't work with chronic human rights abuses, with

terrible lack of freedoms. They did understand about the persecution in the 30s that had led to millions of people being either shot or sent into exile. And they understood that there'd been a famine in the 1940s at the end of the Second World War that had killed more than a million people. So the Soviet Union wasn't a kind of soft player that was trying to get its position defended. It

it was also expansionist. It was also imperialistic. It also had its own agenda where the Soviets were not prepared to negotiate, weren't willing to blink, and were quite likely, in fact, to push hard into a world which could have led to catastrophe too. I think what still mattered at this time was that American superiority in terms of its nuclear arsenal was greater and bigger. But, you know, to give a sign of how weak the Soviet economy was,

About three years after this, the Soviet Union goes through such a bad agricultural breakdown that they need to start importing food from the United States. So what the Soviet Union are trying to do is to put themselves into positions where they can use a threat to keep themselves secure. And regime survival of the Communist Party in Moscow is all that matters.

Follow Legacy on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge entire seasons early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.