182. “We’re $350k in debt & have no savings. Will I have to work until we die?”
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Attention fans of ferry tales the award winning pinter original podcast grim, grimmer grimier has new episodes out now i'm adam goods, best selling auto of children's books. And in grim, grim, grim st. I share classic ferry tales with a wonderful group of kids.

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november twenty first, thirty years of fairly knows above water. We can imagine a rich life.

We've always been either living like paycheck paychex, or actually on .

assistance donis fifty tunas forty eight. And they have struggled to make .

ends meet for their entire adult lives. We've always had hustle hul.

And second, I have always stressed about money were kind .

shooter job. They have a lot of dead. They never really say they never actually thought theyd be able to retire.

We just never thought we were actually .

gonna just had both sort of just given up, just like a thing. We were gone to work until .

we were that their income increased significantly. And for the first time ever, they are starting to wonder how to handle the extra.

I make more a month now, then I made an .

entire years. We are at their scarcity .

mindset and make an actual plan.

The money that was really hard for me to accepting paid what i'm work.

We need to plant.

What do we have here? Their assets are two hundred thousand dollars investments, eleven thousand dollars, okay, quite low for that age. Debt is three hundred and eighty seven thousand.

That debt includes fifty one thousand dollars of credit card debt, one hundred forty five thousand for the mortgage, one hundred sixty eight thousand for student loans that's at age fifty and a ten thousand dollar personal loan plus twelve thousand dollars for at least a lot of debt. Okay, income is twenty one thousand five hundred per months. That's a lot.

I think that's recent. That's two hundred fifty eight thousand dollars a year. Rent, housing costs are quite low.

Dead payments are five thousand and eighty hundred ninety five dollars a month. wow. They have a lot of margin to play with with this income.

And they have chosen to put a towards debt, make sense investments at zero, and they have zero dollars and savings. okay? Uh, of course, the girlfriend spending is working twenty percent two thousand and seven hundred ninety two dollars.

This csp tells me a lot. IT tells me that the one of them recently started making a lot of money. That part is good.

Uh, the part that is a problematic is how little they have for investments and how much debt they have. The great news is that if they can keep their expenses low, they can certainly travel money towards that dead as they're doing. That's great.

I think the more psychological problem here is this need to constantly work can be more worried now that they're making money then before when they were. That's quite interesting. Uh all right. Um sometimes when you can actually see a light at the end of the tunnel, you actually feel worse than when you are completely in the dark. We're going to talk about that today.

I'm very eager .

to talk to them.

We've always been either living like paycheck, paycheck c are actually on assistance. And all the sudden we made a huge leap, were not used to this. We don't this is in our world. We don't know what to do.

We've always had puzzle side hustle and the second side hustle, just see, that was out. And I was like, oh, I could probably do Robert eats and pick a few extra box. And I like like why why am I thinking that way? But that's just how were so wired at this point.

Can we go to the moment where your financial lives changed? Suspect happened pretty recently done. Can you walk me through IT?

We've always done consulting on the side um just trying to pick up for your box and during code someone approach me and said, hey, i'm starting this new business mind you know taking look so I sent a small contract to do a look at the end of IT. They offered me the C O O role um and I saw I did that for a little over a year. Um company had great success so much so the investors flipped and I lost my job. I but I contact there remembered me and so that opened the door for consulting opportunity that um with one client and then I added other clients since then.

How much should you make? S, C, O.

I never made above thirty five thousand dollars a year until that job. I when I left there, well think, is that one twenty?

wow. So you basically quite drupal, almost quite grouped your salary. How much did you both make as a household for most of your career?

We actually had some years where we were under twenty thousand uh and then the um and then we got up to like seven for a few years. So we were in and out of assistance.

And as of today, how much households .

income to make to forty five?

So, so five to ten times more than you use to make.

I make more a month now. Then I made an entire years.

wow. Yes, first of all, amazing jobs. That's incredible. How do you feel about that done?

I is a mixed bag, ray, because you know, first of all and IT was really hard for me to accept being paid with on worth. Tony has been my biggest champion. E I get paid with your worth. Um but there is a part me that has some bitterness because I spent so much my life doing activism m and justice work uh and so now when I stop doing that now of a sudden i'm benefiting. So I kind of feels a little backwards to me uh and so there's quite bit psychology there that I need to work through.

It's not often I get to talk to a couple who has by vex to ten x their previous income, especially at the age of a forty eight and fifty. It's quite extraordinary what has changed.

I have some like survivors guilt because I know I started a nonprofit that work with homeless and food and security folks, and so were now the people I would approach, hoping they might consider to care for folks in our community.

I never imagined my life that, you know, having money would actually be nearly as complicated mentally, psychologically for me as IT is when you're in nonprofits, when you're in justice work, there's there's a sense of like it's a call and therefore you should be IT for the money and and you make all the sacrifices, you know and so to then all the sudden everything change and it's that's it's been really hard. It's also been really great. We actually want to dinner tonight before the show on leave. And the person said, are you here for, you know, a special occasion where, like, no, just dinner and I had looked at tone, how is like, what a fun thing to be able to say? No, what we're actually just here to eat is a monday night and we're eating.

I love that you have the appreciation for that, you know, to be able to go out to a restaurant. So many was taken for granted and to be able to step back and say, IT, oh, that's not Normal time. How's IT felt for your households income to increase like this?

I have always stressed about money. It's A A huge relief to no longer have to worry about paying our basic bills, uh, to no longer have to worry about or do we have enough money in our checking account? The next page comes so that we don't overdraw. Um so I think that's the biggest change is that sense of sense of relief. There has been some some anxiety along with IT because I think done I had both sort of just given up and and just like assumed we were gonna until we were dead。

Did you make jokes to people like we're onna work all the .

day we die .

and a fifty year old guy, of course, I made that that's .

a very common joke among people who don't have money um or and or people who have a lot of student debt. They frequently make that. And it's not really a joke.

It's a half joke. They do IT with a bit of a laugh, but also they kind of believe IT, and they say enough times and starts to become a self fulfilling propac's. And just to see if that's true, after your household income has increased .

by five ten x.

has has your money stress vanished?

I say it's completely vanished. Uh, it's changed. It's gotten Better. That's good. So the stress now is more so about um not screwing IT up. We've had a lot of stuff happen to us through out years and so were kind of always waiting for the other shooter drop. And so IT took several months for me to kind of get past that at this week like all this is just a question pain and feeling that a little bit less now but now the stress is like, oh, man, we actually be able to retire um so how do we not screw that up?

Would you say you love money or hate money but it's .

struggle in that fence, right? Because it's a mystery, uh, in some ways and because, you know, I don't know what to do with .

IT tell me, what about you love money or hate money?

I definitely like I have a love hate relationship with money, uh, just because it's been so difficult to come back for most of our lives and then I love when I can make life easier because of money uh, that's it's a big thing that would you always frustrate me in the past to be like, oh, we broke our risk. We can afford to buy anyone .

you wk like for pancakes yeah so it's like.

well, I get some using a fork now, you know and now it's like, oh, he broke the rest. I will go back and you know.

one of the first things we bought was we reacted our measures cups.

Yes, you couldn't .

read them. You couldn't read the numbers anymore.

I appreciate that. Here we have a couple who truly struggled for many, many years and and suddenly their financial life changed. How do you grapple with those changes? Remember that money is not simply numbers in your bank account.

Money is a core part of your identity. It's where you live, is what you eat, is what you can do. Try to imagine how you would handle going from being on public assistance to suddenly, in your fifties, earning hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.

Would you know how to handle the money? Imagine the money is like driving a fast car. sure. If you've gotten your driver's licence and you've practiced on slower cars, you might feel confident driving this fast car.

But what if you've never driven this fast, ever, and suddenly your only car is a super car, would you know what to do or how to think, or even how to feel? I think it's quietly beautiful that the first thing I thought was measuring cups. See if you've struggled for this law.

You can probably relate, the first thing you buy is probably not some. Lucy. Vacation is something simple, like the expensive at a grocery store.

I got to tell you, I love hearing my guess stories. We will get back to the conversation after a quick pause to support our sponsors. Today's episode sponsored by nod VPN.

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Remember, or click the link in the description below. What would IT mean if you look under your couch cushions and you found twelve hundred box just sitting there, you would be overjoyed. But how many of us are spending hundreds of dollars per month on subscriptions without even realizing IT? I see IT all the time in people.

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When using all of the apps features, stop wasting money on things you don't use cancell your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocket money dot com slash remeid. That's rocket money dot com slash remeid rocket money dot com slash remeid. Now back to dawn in total, what do you remember your parents or your family saying about money when you were Young?

I got the money doesn't grow on trees, you know um but other than that, there were a lot of conversations about money. My parents were both self employed, so the income went up and down and I could tell where we were at based on what we were eating for dinner. When things were good, there will be the occasional leg oh we're haven't flying on tonight, you know um and when things were not great IT was me of and business OK who did .

you see dealing with money in your family? My mother? Mom, okay.

what about dad? My mom did the book keeping for his business in addition to the people keeping for her business. And so then he did all the budget. So any money negotiations went, her mom.

done. Can we go back to your childhood and curious what remember about a your family or parents, what they said about money when you are here?

I am really poor, abusive household. Looks like if you finished the last of something in the cereal box, like you finish the last of cereal, you got in trouble. Everything was scarcity to the end of degree. If I wanted to buy something that I was gonna have got to make money by myself um which I started doing at fourteen. At fourteen I found some pottery place that let me fall boxes for a Nicole box um and I would voit and then I would buy all the kids, all the swedish fish they wanted at the at the swimming.

Really why why do you do that? Ah I think pride .

because at my house there wasn't anything and there is no generosity. You know, I think some people, the response goes one direction for me when the other, which was that i'm going to give everything away, right, which tony can tell you. An unfortunate team of our life .

that relate to the activism to the nonprofit world that set up.

yes, yeah yeah very much.

Gm have a discussion that tony said something like you are so busy giving to everyone else that you don't focus on this family .

yes not nothing in those words. I received IT as I making choices to give things away um or care for someone and your knows are barely above water. And we and I want to be very clear, all reasonable questions to ask me one hundred percent.

Did you have any values in your relationship? Looking back from the beginning.

I think one of the big values was that we always had people in our home. We were kind of a hub for Young people, college age students, that were displaced from family. So we would host big easter meals and have everyone over, which then let us defeating them, and we have money to feed. How did you pay for that?

T T, T, tony, what about you? What values did you have in the relation from the beginning?

We both value social justice. We both value giving back. My jobs have uh almost all been in our profits as well. Um I just earned more and on did and we we definitely value um creating a community. I think you and I just also have a sense of responsibility to the world of wanting to leave in a Better place than IT was when we entered .

IT after hearing about your values a lot of which I love okay I I understand community. That's how my family was raised um but IT strikes me and i'm wondering, do either you have trouble saying no. 没有。

Yes, yes.

yes, you do. And don IT .

depends on the circumstance if it's, if it's, uh, someone is in need the night. I really struggle .

saying now, you know why I asked that question? No, tony.

now hosting .

community paying for IT when you didn't have the money at some points, feeling obligated, real or perceived difficulty saying no is the undercurrent of all those sticks. Do you see that? Where else did the inability to say no show up specifically in your financial life?

I ve mostly been the one who's done the finances. We did have a lot of money conversations to at some point during your marriage we kind of just stop having them um but uh, done would be like why I need this? Can we afford IT and I even though unlike what not not really I would still not be like, yeah, okay, what is your magical .

phrase you said, how would you say IT to him?

I don't know how to say, I guess like, yeah, you can get that or I don't know.

I think I was stuff around. It's gonna hard.

But we can, we can .

figure out.

figure IT out. Thank you very much. I be IT never fails, will figure that out.

That's code for I have no fucking idea how to do this, but I I don't want to say no, we'll figure IT out, right? So tuna, how many times you think that happened? A lot, lot, right? Dozens.

hundreds at.

It's pretty interesting that a deeply held world view, like I struggle to say no, can come up in ten thousand different permutations in our life and we can chase after and try to o they work at all. But it's this, it's here and it's here. 嗯， and we have to change this.

We have to acknowledge what we believe, but to trace IT back to why, and then we have to decide if we want to change IT. We can change a lot. We can change everything. We can change a lot, but we had have a reason to change IT.

I think I know where that comes from for me for a long, long part of my life, very low. So steam and being like a people pleaser. And so I felt like I always elt like I had to prove my worth. And so, you know, i'm giving to people are saying yes to done when he wanted things. I always felt like I had to be giving more than I was receiving in order to feel OK about IT.

Because if you're taking more than your giving, you are what.

in my mind, ordering myself .

too highly, right? And I I don't deserve to be up here. Yeah, right.

So to prove my worth, I need to give more. I need to be adding value all the time. yes. And don, somewhat dynamic exist for you, right?

Yeah a hundred percent. I had the evan's of my job was giving and caring and um in a helping people. But the number of times that we we said yes to things that we didn't have any business say yes to but we just trusted IT would work out.

And you know, the hard part of meters IT worked out because now we're earning. And that lie plays in my head of leg. You know, they see IT did work out.

I love that done in china, our service minded, but their relationship to giving reveal something pretty interesting. Generosity to others can be a good thing, but taken too far, IT can become very harmful. In dance case, he's generous, but he's gone into dead to help other people.

He, Anthony, struggled to say no. And that shows up in lots of places in their lives when they had little money, they were generous, and they went into debt to help others if they continue that same behavior of giving. But now they make hundreds of thousands of dollars, how long do you think the money will last? This is why I love the phrase money changes you.

Most people say with a sore, but money should change you. It's made me more adventures ous, more spontaneous, more generous. In their cases, money should change them.

And one of the things that should help them do is to set boundaries so they can prioritize their own. Rich life did IT work out. You two are earning a high income, I agree, but your financial status, so pretty to multum and problematic, right? Hundred percent.

yeah. The the washington post came out with the thing, like, are you rich?

I didn't contact me for that washington post, literally, who you gna call. If the headline has the word rich, are you going? So so .

it's a, it's a thing where you fill out your networks and your income, and that tells you how you compare to other americans. And we are literally in the bottom percent for network. And then like top six percent for income.

yeah, your income is quite high and your network is quite looks like my take from that dawn Anthony is IT hasn't worked out a you've gotten very lucky in many different ways and you have a chance to change your trajectory, but you have to make several intentional changes.

I'm not just talking about where money goes, will talk about that to, but it's this, who are we if we have money, what changes do we need to make in the way we approach the world, the way approach each other, the way we approach our money? It's basically in a way, like you won the lottery, you all heard stories about lottery winners and they are, you know, a lot of them go broke. Why cause money alone is going to change a lot. But changing money and your approach to the world will right?

Yes.

right. What you say. We take a look at the numbers. Don, can you read off the word in bold? And then the number in full next to IT assets.

two hundred and two thousand, eight hundred and twenty four dollars investments, eleven thousand forty three dollars savings zero debt, three hundred and eighty seven thousand and nine hundred and ninety dollars total network negative, one hundred and seventy four thousand, one hundred and twenty three dollars.

It's scary to hear those actual numbers read out loud, right?

Yes.

think one of the things a lot of people don't get about money, about fitness, about relationships, about these big things in life, is when things are not going well. We don't want to talk about them or think about them. That's why have a lot of compassion for people who are in a bad financial state and they ignore IT because you have to have a real pressing reason to want to engage with negative one hundred and seven four thousand dollars at the age of forty eight and fifty yeah I want to break down your um assets for a second two hundred and two thousand dollars is that a house?

Yes yes kay and .

your debt. Let's work through this for for a second. So we have one hundred forty five thousand dollar mortgage.

We have one hundred and sixty eight thousand dollars of student loans, fifty one thousand dollars of credit card debt, twelve thousand dollars least and ten thousand dollars personal long. Yes, okay, have to ask a few questions. Fifty one thousand dollars of credit card dead.

What's up for that has built up over time.

I think IT came from like thirty years of barely keeping our OS above water and just two thousand dollars under water year three thousand .

and the next year and we went up like twenty twenty five thousand uh during the time of unemployment, just buying groceries and because we .

had no safety not .

paying medical bills.

When that happened afterwards, did you take any lessons away from that sort of I I mean.

I think yes, but it's the conflicting information. You get online rate of lake, do you pay off your high that credit cards? And that's what we did with with our first cut go round of getting good, getting healthy financially was we just put everything towards our debt, but that meant nothing to catch us once we both lost our jobs.

The safety that became the credit card space that we created by being aggressive painter, that's that's exactly what we're doing right now. That's part the reason were like we don't know. Like is that the right thing to just pay off as fast as weekend? Or should we be splitting that up and putting some in the emergency? So I think we've learned to ask the question Better. I just don't know that we've made any changes yet because we're uncertain.

You can see that they're paralyzed by these basic questions and they're still trying to make decisions as if a job loss is right around the corner, not as a powerful couple that makes hundreds of thousands of dollars per year will be right back after this short break. There are few things I never want to do in my rich life anymore. Number one, taking my own returns to the post office.

I don't know why. I just don't like IT. I love the post office. Great job, reliable. I just don't want to have to take a bunch of boxes over there and do with myself.

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One of the recurring patterns on this podcast is couples who come on the show and say we make good money. I just don't know where he goes. And the secret is that it's almost always their fix cost that are too high.

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okay, growth monthly income twenty one thousand five hundred .

so that's two hundred fifty eight thousand dollars per year. Who knew that you make that much? We vote in, wow, really, literally fifty thousand of people on the show don't know how much money they make. So .

no.

and not only that, you, we.

we make more than that.

why? why? why?

Because I am, I do consulting, and that's the number that I felt comfortable saying that I could .

have a yeah I love a good and you know conservative planner if everyone listen, what do I mean by conservative and talking about it's almost like running with a weight vest. If you're going to train to run a man, i'm speaking as a guy doesn't run a freking marathon OK, but you want to train in harder conditions and you're actually going to run the racing.

So when you're putting numbers on your C S P, if you're putting your income and you're not sure round down, round down because it's Better to end up with more than to end up with less. And if you have expenses, you're not sure round up, you'd rather end up with more money than less at the end of the year. So that's how we do.

That's conservative planning. So IT says you make two hundred fifty eight thousand. How much are you actually going to make? Give me arrange from two fifty eight .

to what um three twenty three twenty five what the.

Sixty thousand dollars of buffer did you guys use to make sixty thousand dollars in like two years? yes. How kind of planning is this?

Well, to be fair, he's a consultant, so he doesn't like get paid for vacation. So he's trying to find a way to establish a number that won't make him stress out.

I can't take off work for me because a days work off with the equivalent of over a month, like a month salary sometimes. And so I can in my mind, I can't even take a day off. I can be sick and i'm i'm gonna work or even take off a day. Just go for a walk in the park because i'm like, is is that walk in the park really gna be worth x number of dollars?

You remind me of me, uh, except if when I was in college back then, I raided everything in terms of loads of laundry, like those talkers from jacking the boy the jacket in the box right off campus. That's like two loads of laundry, right? And so people who earn variable income, they become really weird.

They're like, I can go to my sun soccer game that my my son is going to cost me fifteen hundred dollars. I'm like, um i'm not apparent, but i'm not sure that's a healthy way to look at your relationship with your son and they're like, yeah, but what about the cash? I was like.

I can take you tonight dinner. I was like, I knew exactly how many minutes I took me to earn that dinner.

Okay, listen, that's super unhealthy. But I understand that. I understand, especially right now, like money is top of mind because for the first time you have some you have light at the end of the tunnel.

I get IT, but I just need you to know that's not healthy and we need to put a plane in place so you don't think that way because that's a real messed up way to think about money. OK agree. So let's say I like your plan here.

Two hundred and fifty eight thousand probably gonna make more. That's awesome. We can make a plan for what to do with the additional income.

We always have a plan, and let's keep working our way down. So your net income is thirteen thousand six seventy five. So that means what you're taking a lot of pretax for a one k type of stuff.

Um I I have protects health insurance for one k through my job and then we pay estimated taxes for his consulting income. Oh, okay.

alright, that makes sense. Let's look at your fixed costs, shall we? What's this number right next to the fix costs .

done seventy nine percent.

What do you think of that number?

I think it's really high. Um but i'd like to defend IT with the debt payments. Yeah is correct. Four thousand .

yeah that is correct. Your debt payments are in extra four thousand dollars a month. You are paying IT, uh, aggressively to pay off your dead.

I understand that. And if we took that down by four thousand books, let's watch what happens to this number here. That seven, nine percent reader off to me now done.

What is the turning? Fifty percent? Fifty percent? Five, zero. All right.

So that's like right now with your income fifty percent. great. And let's talk about this for a second.

So why is your fix costs fifty percent? Well, your mortgage is really low. It's one thousand, one hundred twenty five dollars a month.

Let's look at a couple of other things here. You get a car payment for forty one. What kind of car you have?

It's an electric.

Oh, okay, that's why you're leasing because it's electric. Yes.

release honestly because that is a security item for me of not wanting to deal with surprise repairs and stop like that.

What car did you have in europe? Teenager.

I had OK on.

Let me just guess, i'm just gonna ss here because I know it's a horrible car because of the way you talk about car repairs. Was IT a chevy lumina?

no. IT was not IT was actually a hondo. Cic was my first car.

Nice for me. I don't believe you.

but no, that someone, I total K O O K.

Then how .

do .

this view car repair?

I got a really old toys.

I'm sorry, honda, toyota didn't know this would happen. Okay, that these shows are not scripted OK. I'm trying to make friends with honey to I love you guys, I love you.

All right, listen. So I understand that. Look, first of the leases that much. So i'm gonna move on past IT OK groceries are twelve hundred for two people.

哼 clothes.

whatever, zero subscriptions, two thirty five cleaning and long care, but just like house cleaning.

yes, that is my my one thing I did right almost straight away. The my one like mug is .

find medical three thirty five and haircuts in hygiene, five. All right. So you're paying ten thousand seven hundred three a month.

I have no comments right now. I except I recognized that you're overpaying, quote, overpaying towards your debt. You're doing intentionally fine.

Let's go down to the rest of IT though. Your investments are at zero. yeah. And if we look at your total investments, you have eleven thousand box at the age of fifty .

crushing IT.

Yeah, that's a problem.

right? Yes.

big problem. OK. 各位， savings are. Now this was another clue that was quite interesting. You're saving one hundred dollars per month. This is the only savings and it's going to a contribution for sun.

So our sun gives a rent pay and we decided that we would take a hundred dollars of that rent and put IT in a high yield savings for him.

Okay, I appreciate that. Lets go down to so that's all the savings you have that's uh, yes and you can currently have zero in savings, yes.

other than the accounts for the tax.

yeah we we have a high yellow savings account. We put our s taxes and we set aside until time.

So you're all like died in on um you know uncle sam, you're like, okay, we're not going to mess that. When how was your own frequent savings? What about that?

That's one of the reasons why we want to do this as good. We don't know IT feels like anytime I put money in savings, I feel like, uh, the cards are charging so much more interest. What's the value of the stuff sitting here when I could pay down interests and save us that money every month? But it's interesting .

that you only started thinking that way now and not for .

the last thirty years. Now we did.

You have fifty one thousand doors of credit .

card that that you've had. Oh yeah. But we we didn't have a lot of money to do that. We living paycheck to paycheck.

Other couples might say we didn't have the money. So one of us went, I ve got a different job.

we've done .

where the money go。

We did not make a lot like I know I I don't think I can emphasize enough just how little money don't mid um and not trying to throw him and is just you part of the time I had a decent page job. Other parts of the time I uh I did not um and so um for most most of our adult hood, we've each been working to three jobs.

Something odd is going on, but I can figure out what can you feel that my antena are going up? Because I can understand how they ended up with so much dead, even though they both held multiple jobs. What were the jobs? Why did they have so much debt for so long? I keep asking and and suddenly I find the answer. What was that paid disparity between the two of you?

Five times you made five times more tuna .

than down yeah and was our discussion about like hey like in order for us to pair bills like this is how much we need to be bringing together. This is how much I make. So this is how much you proudly need to make.

don't think so. And I think a lot of that goes back to you know the sense of call um so reme part of this is I was a pastor for twenty years. I walked away from the church trade.

So um and there is A A real sense of guilt and shame. I got the front for actually doing inclusion for doing L G B T Q wedding. So I got my credential stripped.

I got you know blackboard. I in a lot of place is right. And so but there is a sense of these people that we helped and we care for that. We're like, you can't walk away from this like the number of times that tony, I would have conversations at me like i'm done just gonna get a job and dona can't to say more bit than people were like what you did or the conversations we have we were stuck in this weird draw um you and shame on and the sense that if if I left, how could someone like me who has done so much, how could I go and walk away?

I will say the one thing i'm proud of is I was very progressive and was racial reconciliation and L G B T Q inclusion and fought lot of people on that like that also embedded IT even more right because you're the one person is doing that are saying that um and you know that I got played like a pital and emotionally spiritually tally and i'm also really bit about that review. I'm so angry. wow.

Okay, now I get IT. Imagine all the invisible scripts associated with growing up religious and not just religious, but being a pastor and then what I took to speak out and get the frog, or basically kicked out of what was your life's work? Honestly, I wanted acknowledge brave IT was for dawn to speak up and for him to share his story here, or something I really appreciate about my guess.

And I cannot begin to imagine how difficult that decision was. It's not just a political or religious statement for someone who's a member of the church is often socially devastating. Let's hear what tana has to say.

We had a great community and everything, but um he was treated very terribly and many of our the church context and we both grew up and a more conservative Christian context and so we both had IT ingrained us about tipping um and you tied even if IT hurts um and so some of our original original that is because we were tiring and we can afford to and this idea that um if you're in ministry IT is because it's a calling and you have decided to take a vow of poverty. There is a church we are at that um we got like a used car from someone for a really good deal and like people .

eighty B M W that IT was rusted out completely, but IT was A B M W.

So right right. So I was like criticism of you know what you spend your money on and so that cause other issues for us as well um and what we purchase and .

how we talk about money yeah and I first I know IT now helps me understand so much of what I see because you know, i'm over here like that income down was learning was really now I get IT and why is there this need for service? service. I I love service.

I get IT. I love community, I get IT. But now IT makes sense. I mean, hell, I speak to people who are religious frequently on this podcast, and I understand being religious comes with certain feelings about money. I get that, but I don't often speak to someone who was a pastor. Yeah that is like um tying or not it's like two people pulling at the not. And the more you try to become inclusive, which I totally appreciate and support L G B T Q and all kinds of communities, the more you become embedded by saying, like, i'm fighting for this ministry and now I can't leave because look at what I did is a very tRicky, not that you've constructed OK. wow.

Our church closing after code was what? Finally, I went back into the business world and I started earning what I can make now.

Wow, 所以 so have the church stayed open？ Would you still be there?

IT was getting dc, so I think IT was IT was coming to an end for me. Um but there's a chance because that was a church we started .

for people listening. I don't think they can understand how powerful of force religion is. I don't think people can truly understand what a pull IT has on you. It's not like, hey, look at the csp.

It's so obvious you need to go earn more money like that's a different language, that's a different planet, yes, versus you being in the church, serving people, serving god, all these things. And like you're actually even affirmatively taught money is not what you're here for. In fact, if you have a nice car, a thousand and eighty bw, you must done something wrong. Well, that's fancy. Your values are public.

I read a bicycle for twenty years instead of having a car.

Okay, wow, i'm so glad I know. Is that really helps me understand these numbers? Giving me the story behind the numbers is why I do what I do, because I can sit here, look at spread ch ees all day is boring hearing your story.

Wow, I feel like I just saw color for the first time. Okay, lets look at these numbers again. We gotta take IT from the the top.

This is, wow. I feel reinvigorated. Alright, OK. okay? You got a house. fine. You only eleven thousand dollars of investments at age fifty, okay? Will fix that savings at zero.

No way we're going to fix that too, that we got a lot of that. We're going to make a plane for that. The income is high, is high, is at two hundred and fifty eight thousand dollars and probably higher than that.

Fix costs are fifty percent, but you're adding four thousand dollars a month towards debt. okay? Great investments are effectively at zero. You have some pretext. Few thousand bugs find tackle that savings that basically zero we're onna fix that and then you're goal free spending is at twenty percent two thousand seven hundred ninety two dollars a month. What's that?

That's a lot.

IT is a lot. So that's the um where we just sort of shoved IT all down there and and are hoping for kind on what to do.

You not in the church anymore. This isn't the lord coming and telling you what to do now is your return.

Listen.

that carefree that that .

carefree spending is also a mind job IT really is .

because he doesn't feel careful you to .

talk about IT. So just I understand IT IT says that you have two thousand and seven hundred and ninety two dollars left. I'm going, na, just assume that you are spending two thousand and seven under and ninety two dollars a month would IT be more than that.

There were a couple months that I went over and we didn't pay as much of the stuff towards .

credit cards. We are going to fix this。 So that is simply repeating the pattern of what you use to do, but with bigger numbers, right? That's a nogo.

okay.

So part of we're going to do is reinvent yourselves. And I I would actually guess that you two are pretty comfortable with the reinvention. So good look at those notes, big smiles, big notes, love IT.

That's the energy change.

Reinvention is good. We get in the best parties. We get to choose what we reinvent ourselves to be amazing.

And forty and fifty, you have an opportunity. You have time, you have high earnings and probably more than even as shown on here. So there is a possibility of some really great stuff happening OK.

But the you'll notice um some of these loose off hand comments you make reveal a way of looking at the world like there have been months where we spend too much so we come back on paying our dead as much real. These are ways that the old dawn antanas behaved the new dawn tina do ight. So before we get into the specific plans, can you just tell me who are done in china now as IT relates to money, we are finished into that sentence for me.

determined.

responsible.

Vi .

savy, good.

What good word? That's a good word. Um what do we want to be a bounce?

Ced, okay, good. Because he relaxed. nice. I want to .

be comfortable not having the worry about the small stuff um feeling confident that we are saving for retirement but also able to enjoy um I for special things I love that do .

on anything else.

I think up until now I always spend today, are we secure today and the idea of actually having any kind of future looking is would be wonderful.

Yeah, I love that. It's very much like you to have been driving in in a thick fog for most of your lives. You can only see fifteen feet ahead.

And if I were to ask you what's a mile down the road, you're like a mile or i'm just trying to get the next fifteen feet and suddenly the fog has cleared, do you realized? And yet you are still driving as if you can only see fifteen feet to ahead and arms saying is done in town. And open your eyes.

Look at the beautiful VISA. We can see miles. We got ta make a couple of changes, but we can see rather than we've ever seen.

That's what I want you to recognize here. Kay will make some changes to help you feel determine responsible, savi baLance, relax, confident, enjoying extra special things and feeling secure today and tomorrow. Doesn't that sound like a vision will be right back after this short break this year?

I'm proud of being in business for twenty years. Twenty years ago, I started this business in my college dorm, and I grew IT since then. And that is why you and so many other people have watched and red and listened to my material.

I'm so thrilled that you are here. It's a good reminder that the things worth building are also worth protecting. Making IT a state plan means getting security of your assets and piece of mine for you and your loved ones.

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Now back to the show. So you currently have a bunch of dead. Do you know how long until this dead that you are paying five thousand, eight hundred and ninety five dollars a month towards will be .

paid off july next year?

Wow, you ran the calculations. Okay, very impressive. Unpleasantly surprised who ran the calculations? We both did. That's amazing. That's quite advanced. I ran your debt payoff as well, and I got a different answer, but I you have more information .

than I do so that july number or date IT does not include on the student loans.

Oh oh yeah, no.

that's just credit cards and personal one.

And I was wondering why I got such a different answer and why did you shoes not to include student loans?

Because tony works in non profit, and after ten years, student loans are forgiven.

啊。 Good answer. Okay, so let's zero that out.

okay? I get basically the same thing as you can be paid off in about a year. Round of a class.

This is good. You guys, this is really good. I'm starting to see a plan here.

Okay, this is great. Yeah, you guys will be fifty one and forty nine roughly. And this dad will be paid off is not cool.

Yeah, oh, oh, my god, alright. I'm too excited. I ve got to come up.

Wow, you know, I really get like a very less in surprise when i'm looking at multiple sources of debt. And here I am. It's like, yeah, White, one hundred and sixty A K take that away.

It's gonna forget I like this is great. Okay, so amazing. So knowing what, we all now know that your dad can be paid off in roughly a year. If you had to decide on a plan.

what would you do? And our plan, with limited knowledge, was to just continue to put every penny we can into the the high are interest rate that get that paid off and then as soon as that paid off then split uh that same money, that same poor money just start putting IT into uh, investment and savings. But IT feels terrible right now not to be putting anything in an investment but IT logically IT also makes sense to pay off all that dead first. So yeah where we're just really confused.

What about you?

I've sort of been flagging on what the best move is. I would probably do more of the retirement.

Why um .

that terrifies me.

You'll find what's going on here kind of interesting. It's just, you know, we don't know anything about money and I tell us, guide us now I am here to help for sure, but it's time for you to step into the fact that you make over two hundred fifty thousand dollars a year, okay, and nobody y's coming to save you. So like getting paralyzed by, should we put money here or there? You might as well just pick one and do IT fifty years old.

Time is not on your side. You need motion and you need to move fast. That's what we're gonna work on today.

It's time for us to embrace that. We have money and we need to start getting in motion. Nobody's going to a push us and make us go.

We've got to do IT you agree? yeah. okay.

If things go wrong a little bit, you might make wrong decision. Lose fifty hundred bucks, guys. Fifty hundred boxes jump.

Change compared to what we're talking about here. Smart people move fast. Why you laughing?

Can you? Fifty hundred dollars of great.

Yeah, I know that done in tone. A one point of they would have been laughing done in town. And two point like, oh, this guy's right, fifteen hundred boxes like a it's a tiny percentage of what we make in a year. It's crazy to think, right? Crazy to here is also true.

I am having a little bit of a hard time adJusting or denied where I feel like in some cases were still like the cheap thing that we're gonna have to replace rather than say like saving, waiting, whatever and buying like the nice other thing we're not .

thinking about, how do we buy some for the next twenty years? I think we're so purchasing for the day and you know, tomorrow, if you if at last a long time, great, we got lucky. And if he doesn't, then will replace IT. But yeah.

I think IT speaks to the two view, actually believing that you deserve to live a rich life and that you have the agency and control to actually do IT.

Yeah, I definitely don't feel that I deserve.

And so if you don't feel you deserve, which I can understand so many decades of why. Then every time you try to make plans about money, they could be even investing money. Why would we? I don't deserve to have five hundred thousand dollars. We don't deserve to be a millionth. And you will self sabot yourself.

And in the second part, to believe that you have the agency to actually cause things to happen, you for so long, you were kind of the recipients of whatever was given to you and now be faced here with extra money and go, we have, we can make a choice. I can see that it's paralized to you. Like I want to acknowledge that I understand why it's so scary.

Again, you for the first time ever, you can see a mile down the road, but I also need you to keep moving. That's the key. That's the mind that I need you to adopt.

I think that we need to talk about the numbers of where you can go because right now, like there are so many infinite number of decisions you can make and you're just like, what do we do for the first time? We have money. We don't know how to decide these things.

okay? One thing is we need to focus on what's most urgent. So fifty years old, you're going to want to retire at some point. And for the first time, you're realizing, oh, my god, is possible. Have you calculated how much money you will have in retirement?

I did. If we if we put away five thousand and six thousand a month from now until i'm sixty seven at seven percent, that i'll put right around two million dollars.

what good job brand of a plus two million bucks coming from eleven thousand and forty three dollars at age fifty to having two million dollars, at what age did you .

say sixty seven?

damn. So what you, what are you telling amErica down? Hold on, let me get my tell. Tell don, what does everybody need to do to go from zero to two million dollars in what was IT fifty, seventeen years? How much should they need to make down?

Tell him two hundred and fifty thousand dollars.

We're going na get so mad at me right now.

And me that's like.

guys, hey america, don't get matter. My guess, it's not their fault. That was my joke.

I set that one up. You do not have to make two hundred fifty eight thousand dollars a year. okay. But what I do love about that examples, IT, shows that a high income solves a lot of financial problems OK.

Yes, the only way .

that a couple whose roughly fifty years old with basically nothing invested could have a very comfortable retirement, the only way is they have a very high income and carefully managed expenses. There is no other trick. The only other ways would be to extend retirement probably into their seventies and to decrease the amount spent in that retirement. In your case, amazing calculation on you do have the possibility of having pretty healthy retirement at two million box plus social security at sea seta. I was wondering .

if that calculation was based on doing that now because we're not putting that money in now o what would we have to do to catch up if we start a year from now?

I want you to remove the catch up concept from your head. You're not gonna catch up with what you would have done if you started investing age twenty two. Why are we thinking of that? IT IT makes no sense.

You can decide right now we have roughly four thousand bucks a month extra. We could put three thousand towards dead and one thousand a month towards retirement. Let's play IT out.

Let's run the calculation and let's decide, but let's not use the word catch up. Because when people use catch up, IT is always looking backwards. IT always makes them feel bad and always makes them do really destructive things with their money.

嗯， i personally, I always like to be investing something five hundred box a month, hundred box a month, if that's what you can just have IT k, and then I like that way. The factory is already moving, and I can just turn the speed up. Easier to go from one hundred to five thousand and zero to one hundred.

Look, there's no right or wrong answer for this because, well, time matters a lot to you. One year in the grand scheme is one year. What's more important to get your habits correct? That matters a lot. I'll just tell you what I would personally do OK.

I can tell you what you should do, but I say what I would do if I were me and I had your csp, which i'm onna, put up on screen right now, this is what I would do. And I would take this number. You're gill's free spending two thousand seven hundred ninety two dollars.

Let's just say that that's three thousand books. Okay, just for easy minute. I would cut that thing in half because I guarantee you've been living on less than apt for a long time, right?

Guess yeah like a way less so you know remember that, uh, member, that movie where everybody got a trapped in the andes mountains and they started eating each other. They brought him back to the hospital and they were very careful not to overfeed them immediately because it's really dangerous. That's the same thing here.

You don't want to go from spending like fifty dollars a month to two thousand seven hundred and ninety two dollars 什么？ Want to go up very gradually and build the skill of what it's like to spend. Same thing I would tell athletes or lottery winners.

So for me, I would take half of that and I will put that right in the savings. In my opinion, savings is more important to you right now then investing twelve months ahead because you're going already investing a bit and you're gna start investing a lot of money soon. You have no savings and that's a problem.

Okay, why would I not immediately put all my money towards high interest credit card death? In most cases I would. But don in tana have a unique situation. They never built the skills of saving and investing, but those are the skills that are absolutely critical riker.

In my opinion, even if that means paying slightly more in high interest of debt, see, the goal here isn't just to pay off the debt, is for them to build the habit of saving and investing and starting to gradually think further ahead. Like cultivating a garden, you don't just aggressively water your plants once a year and then expect them to be OK. You have to nurture them over time, which allows them to develop strong roots.

That is what I want for dawn antoni. You may disagree with my suggestion. You might choose to pay off all your credit card debt all at once.

fine. That's not what I would do in their situation. Let's get back to the conversation .

if a surprise repair comes out up. Is that lake from the care free spending? Or should I come out the saving?

So let me put IT very bluntly, couples that make two hundred and fifty eight thousand dollars, they don't have surprise expenses on their one thousand, one hundred and twenty five dollar a month house that they haven't planned for OK. Now you'll get there. You're not there right now.

I understand that you have an old house and things have come up. I'm trying to show you what I should be like and what IT is gonna like in about two years. So here I am, uh, in a in a relationship, I make two hundred and fifty eight to three hundred thousand dollars a year.

I know a lot of stuff going to go wrong. I've already anticipated that I put money aside. I have a specific sub savings count called this dam house. And every month, how much you might putting in there tell me, forget about all these numbers in general. How much should I be putting in that house?

And five hundred dollars.

yeah, sound like that. You know, typically they say one to three percent of the value of a house per year. For now, your house might be older, blab a blah.

But that includes things that break, that includes the roof that will break eleven years from now. So when that happens, you will have the money saved up. That's how we think we start being proactive OK.

Now you can save five hundred books a month right now for your house because you have other things that needs to go towards, but you can save how much? Two hundred, sure, two hundred box. Put a decide, create a house fund, get the factory moving.

Okay, so you have a of, I love vivid names for account, you know this dam house and whatever you anna call IT and it's two other box a month. If something goes wrong, that's where you look. But you really need to be aware if something if you have five hundred box in that account and you have a thousand dollar problem, would you going to do take .

our careful spending.

Yeah, that's correct. IT comes out of good free space, does not come out of an emergency fund. Nothing ever comes out of an emergency unit.

Less is an emergency. That's exactly how you do IT beautiful. You're gonna pay off on your dead in a year.

Let's talk about what's gonna happen. Once that paid off, you have options. You can split IT. You could invest all of IT. I'll tell you what I would do if I had four thousand box extra per month.

The way i'm thinking about this is, how much do I need to retire at age sixty seven? Like how much is gonna comfortable for me? And I know you've already factored in your social security and those things.

So i'm just like, how much do we need at age sixty seven? I'm also prioritizing a savings account. I want to get to six months of an emergency fund, six months. And I say that because you have had some tough times, cause a lot of problems when you had unemployment OK.

There's a part of me that's like we're finally making money yeah, I want to enjoy IT like and so there's things that read around the house.

but I would like to prove, 好 a sweet to god。 I could talk to people in any situation. And no matter what, no matter what, we're always going to end up in the same place. Remember, I got to renovate my house.

Well, I will add, we also have taken one vacation in our entire marriage.

If you want to renovate your house, we can make that happen OK. But this is one of the clues that I see on your csp which is um slapping ss a lot of things that have been mushed together and they shouldn't. So when I have an emergency fund that is an emergency fun, I don't touch that.

okay? When I have guilt t free spending, that is guilt free spending. You want A N of v love IT love IT. I support IT.

If you can afford IT, which means, in your case, you would probably put money aside once you have the money you spend IT simple as that. But you don't go into that for IT OK. IT sounds simple, right? Is there any? Hey, I feel muddied when .

IT comes to the guilt free because because things like, you know pairs and additional medical bills and so like that is coming out of that. Um that's because .

you don't have your account set up to properly reflect your priorities. So you are constantly feeling behind because you have been financially behind for the list thirty years. But I have I have to tell you that I would be a tragedy to go the rest of your life feeling behind, 嗯， without actually changing your account structure and then changing your psychology of money. We need .

clear lines .

of demarcation when IT comes to spending. You know how I think about my money when IT comes to this guilt free stuff. Every time I got to spend money on something that I like, it's sgl t free for me.

I'm not thinking, oh my god, I could be doing this. I could be doing that because I already handled all that stuff. The fix cost were already handled, the automatically being paid every month, savings automatically being done, investments automatically being done.

And I already know how much I need. And i've built a healthy buffer, all that stuff. So what's left is meant to be spent. Have you internalize that with your money?

No, definitely not.

So we need to do that. Let's look at the numbers again because there's one big, there's one big thing we haven't talked about OK. And you mention that you might make up to sixty thousand dollars more than we see on A C.

S. P. correct? OK. What are you gonna with that money?

Well, we've had that conversation about to be split half of IT and pay IT towards additional money towards that, and then take the other half and figure out investments, savings, carefree are go free.

I would like hear the two of you have this conversation about what to do with any unexpected income.

What do you want to do? Do you want to what IT make you feel Better, feel make us feel Better to to put IT in investments?

I see, as likes do, is putting up three different percenters, so like savings, retirement and carefree spending. It's guilt free.

We keeps saying carefree. It's guilt.

You all have an aversion to the word guilt because of the religious stuff.

What is probably.

是 adapt.

adapt.

Maybe the guilt free part includes um some of these bigger ticket things we want to do like like maybe we add an extra chunk to savings for a vacation or we add an extra chunk to savings for things we wanted do around or or whatever. Tone.

I like I like the idea of us being super gressier. We do eighty percent in two investments and twenty percent in the savings. How does that sound to you? What do you want to do?

There is a part of me that wants to have like some portion of IT, even if it's small, but like oh, here's a little extra so we can get the things that that we want, you know that we can do the things that .

we want see .

the number sixty retirement.

twenty savings. Let's do IT as to IT, sixty, twenty, twenty six months will review and maybe we'll see them that we can do more in one place over the other. But I I love the idea of returning .

six months.

Yeah, I really take a lot of of laws that was very decided. amazing. One thing that I think is part of your our values, who you are in two point o is we are decisive.

We make decisions, we make a inform, we make a educated, but we make decisions. And you just did a great job that that was awesome. Sixty, twenty, twenty.

I love IT. I'm really proud of both of you for just that last exercise that was really good. Thank you. How do you feel about that? I feel good.

I feel like there's clarity. I feel like we've had been held around the extra income and like kind of what are we gonna? What are we gonna? And even if is something that we change in six months, i'm so glad that we have we have something, we have a number.

I just feel bad that I was like i'm in high.

I understand that temptation is like as you start to become more adept with your money, just having money, first of all, building these decisive plans, this can be very tempting for you to to feel bad. Like, why didn't we do this three years ago? We should have done this like, oh, my god. But I think that many people who have felt bad about money for so long, when they have the opportunity feel good, they go back to another permutation of feeling bad. Do you know why?

comfortable.

It's comfort.

It's the same reason many people stay in poor relationships one after another. I've known feeling bad, at least I know how to deal with that. What was that thing you said? Tina, when is the next shoe gonna drop?

Two point, o says, we work hard. We deserve to have money. We spend time talking about our money regularly. We we expect our family to have a healthy savings account, healthy investment account to be able to go eat every so often and get something nice for the house we expected. We deserve IT if we work hard and are lucky and fortunate and put the time at all those things.

It's onna, take a while.

But i'm just trying to paint a picture of what I will look like on the guilty spending side. One thing I might suggest to each of you is you have, but he says one hundred dollars among the guillory spending and making up the numbers, obviously more than that. But you know, twenty box of that might go towards tana, twenty box towards dawn and then sixty box towards the two of you.

Something to consider. You probably want some sort of allocation in there. And that way, if tone is like, I really want these beautiful things for the bedroom, fantastic, your free spending, and you too should decide, is that the family or is IT tonus, but also think it's important to have some joint gi lt.

Free money that the two of you, you know, you want to use you with your family, that's for you. Yes, there is one of the thing I want to talk about, which is done. You mention that you feel the need to work all the time.

If you know you take a day off, you are losing you know potentially eight hundred box a day, a thousand box a day like that. What are your thoughts on that? In light of all the things we .

have talked about right now, I would like to imagine that I have a Better perspective on that. And done two point. O is not gonna have the same issues. I think the area that is still complicated, my brain for mathematical reasons, is that then that makes me want to reduce the amount that I come on every month to give room for a day off, to give room for a week vacation or something um and possibly adjust our budget to to make that feel like that is more approach able. Whether right now I feel like the budget we have, i'm pretty much locked into every day, putting in at least at chunk of hours every single day I would like to be able to take off for friday and not spend all weekends sweating about, man.

I shouldn't taken off friday. But the numbers wise, you can make this model work on two hundred fifty eight thousand doors a year. You don't need even the extra income, right? That's our gravy, correct? So IT doesn't I answer your question right there? You can take a friday off right now. 嗯。

yeah, I think IT does all come down to psychology. Yes, the idea of me sitting on my front point reading a book, uh, all afternoon on a friday instead of earning money, it's hard to switch to say that was a worthwhile spend of my afternoon.

Yeah well, fortunately you're talking to the world's foremost expert in leisure need. Okay, I fuck and love IT and i'm really good at IT gonna talk about this because it's actually very important. Numbers are numbers great.

We talked about that. But I I want to emphasize something very important to you. One of the values you need to really start to internalize is I am running a marathon OK and IT. There's one thing that you cannot do in this entire model. We talked about, you know what?

IT is die.

yeah. Basically, you cannot lose your job. Let me jump in here to make this point Crystal clear. Don Anthony's aggressive retirement plan will only work if don keeps his job. He cannot lose the job if they did not have this high income, this conversation would not be nearly as positive. In fact, they would be in serious trouble.

Candidly, with no way out, they would be in serious debt, they would be unable to paid off, they would have no real retirement savings, and their future would be very bleak. Thankfully, they have a high income now, and that is why IT is so important to protect IT. Now I don't say this to discourage anyone from starting to invest later in life.

Of course, the best time to start investing is your twenty. Is also true that the second best time to start investing is right now, in this case, Donnan tana, are going to be financially okay, in fact, Better than okay. And if you're in the same situation, you can do that too.

What I want you to understand is that the longer you weight, the harder IT gets. And it's not just done little harder, gets really, really hard. So start early, if you can, and focus on building the skill of increasing your income and set up automatic investments.

I teach all of these things in exhaustive detail on the programs on my website. Let me talk to dawn about his money psychology. Now you're like an athlete. You cannot get injured.

So what do you athletes to do? recover? exactly. That's the way you have to think about IT. So if a friday reading on the porch is what provides you recovery, then you actually have to prioritize IT and fight for IT and make that happen.

This is the same reason, you know, I joke about leasure, but I am actually take a very seriously. I happily watch T, V for hours at a time. And to anyone else still like this guy, what the hell wrong with this guy? But the way I mentally constructed is i'm rejuvenating.

I'm CoOperating, recovering. And when the time calls for IT, i'm ready. When netflix called and IT was get on a plane to all these different cities, you Better look good.

You Better be ready to go show up on time at growing hours for six, seven days week. I'm ready and that's how I want you to think. As an athlete, recovery is a priority, but change anything for you in terms of time.

It's interesting because when when this financial shift happen, we did things such as get a cleaner right to to buy time back, right? That's been helping me think about if if i'm willing to pay for a cleaner, I willing to pay for my my afternoon off, basically. But that would be like my first step, that be like my baby step to I embracing that leader.

I like that. I really like the baby steps you're taking. I think buying back time. That's a great, great idea. Glad you did IT.

I want to paint a vision for you that eventually um your leisure time is not a transactional value to be calculated. There's value in leasure for the sake of leasure. We are human beings who need enjoyment and fulfilment. And ironically, the money guys here telling you is not all about money. You know that you know that because you lived here for so many years, but actually need you to to to kind of bring that back and realize my enjoyment, whether with my wife, my son, my dog, or just walking around somewhere, it's worthwhile. I deserve IT art of done in tana two point o is that if you achieve all the things we talked about, you're actually not behind.

You can preach for .

me .

now that is high praise. I appreciate that. Thank you to dawn and dana for sharing their story with us. And I want to remind you that can be really hard to share these intimate details of your finances, especially when they don't seem so great on paper.

But sharing those stories is what allows all of us to learn from other so big things to done in tana until all the guests, you come on the show every single week and take us into your rich life. Let's check in and see how things are going. First DNS follow up tone.

And I have had some amazing conversations. We also have some excitement around uh for future. We still feel like there's a lot of work to do um and as they take a lot of effort and it's going to depend on us being consistent, but IT is doable and and able and that we actually really have a good shot at retiring.

We thought through the ways that we are going to put up the additional income that I was above the learn what we were counting for. We have a good plan now, which is nice. We just kind of paralyzed by some unknown that you know just really took a little bit of nudging.

And once the nudging happened on a kind of open up the gates for us to make some really solid decisions. So thank you for everything. We appreciate you. Thank you so much.

And now tone is follow .

with our plane. We are actually in good sheep for retirement, which was a relief to here, and we should none review ourselves as catching up. I think it'll be a little difficult to fully overcome that mind.

Senate after a years of struggling, but we are going to do IT. We're committed to doing IT. It's gonna happen. We realized that our duke for e spending category was really a catchall for anything that wasn't in fixed costs.

So we created a five percent buffer in our budget for small players, maintenance, extra medical works, but not expected that thing. And then we made our guilt free spending category on nick of giving money away, plus purchases that are truly good free. In addition, we set aside five hundred dollars a month for a long term emergency savings. And then any additional income, either less urban's, will be split sixty forty between retirement A M long term emergency and then we plan on reevaluating a january. So thank you so much for your help.