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What you are about to hear is a classic session of "Where Should We Begin?" with Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's, and each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.
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From the intake interview, I learn a few things about this couple. They are in a kind of a talking versus touching battle of sorts.
There is a long-standing history of cheating.
described as a sex addiction? So sex addiction has really been an ongoing issue for me since I was a teenager. I found out he was cheating on me. Just random hookups and meeting guys online and doing what guys do. It was very, very heartbreaking.
So he found out, which, long story short, I kind of was hoping he would because I knew I needed help at that point.
And the revelation of the cheating, which then became a revelation about an out-of-control sexuality, then became a revelation of an out-of-control violence in his childhood. I've been diagnosed with PTSD. I've got a history of trauma. And for so long, I've been trying to push that away. It was either counseling and trying to figure all this out or kind of throw away 14 years.
And so part of what I want to do is to parse out what is what, what intersects with what, what may have led to what, and where can the healing, the change, and the growth come from. This is Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel. What's one conversation with him that you would like to have? Being able to have a better understanding of triggers from his past.
He and I have talked before where we've related it to kind of walking through a minefield. Sometimes you're doing fine, but then you take that one wrong step and everything unravels. So being able to navigate those kind of situations better, for sure, for his own mental health and for mine. Is there one that you have been able to identify that, you know, on a few occasions I'd said or did something and...
I think probably the most recent one is his birthday. My idea for his birthday was to, since we had just recently moved to Minneapolis,
We had been talking about going to a lot of these little, just little fun landmarks. The Mary Tyler Moore statue, the Bob Dylan mural, those kind of things. And we'd just never done it. We'd been there for two years and it's always, oh, we'll get to it later. So I thought, we'll jump in the car and just kind of travel around and I'll take him to all these fun little places. Blindfolded? No blindfold, just unknowingly.
- What? - Because that's what it felt like. - That's what it felt like. And we finally got to that point. - So my idea of fun, that spontaneous and excitement of the unknowing. So let's go do this. You know, I had the whole day planned out, lunch at a certain place that we talked about, and then it never got that far. I noticed something was kind of going on when we were at home. He was kind of just dragging his feet and
kind of hemming and hawing when he was getting ready. But we got in the car and started talking and he kind of shared a little bit that he didn't like the surprise aspect. And I was like, "Well, I can tell you if you need to know, I can tell you exactly what we're doing." He said, "No, it's fine. You can manage it." And by the second location, he's like, "Okay, no, I can't do this anymore." So... And I kind of look at that and go,
there was a breakthrough because we circled back around and talked about all of this, right? And what I learned was I'd been isolating myself with these thoughts in my head. So I was getting anxiety about all of these surprises that were happening and I felt like I was being blindfolded and put into a car and then taken, you know, on this wild goose chase, which I knew nothing about. And only then did I realize that
I'm not sharing my process of what's going on in my head with him. And he's asking, and I'm saying, well... He's even asking, should I tell you where we're going? But I wanted desperately to not have anxiety around that. Like I wanted the surprise of getting ulterior guide. I wanted desperately, I wanted for his surprise to be a good, positive thing for me.
Here I am going, "I can do this, I can do this, I can do this, I can do this." Which really made the anxiety even worse. So what I learned, what we have learned from that was that I need to include him in what's going on in my head. I can't just assume that when I say, "Oh, I have anxiety," he understands what that means. Like, he knows a little bit about the trauma of my past and what
kind of triggers this. He knows a little bit means what? He knows trauma has happened. He knows that he was physically abused and sexually abused early on. So he knows those things. He doesn't know the specifics around them. And then that also, I think, plays. And the reason he knows not more is by choice of you or of him or of...
Lack of the vocabulary. The language, yes, that's a big piece of it. But also for understanding that my memory isn't there. I have blocked out so many pieces of that, and that's something that I'm working on with my own personal therapist. At first, I thought that he wanted to know all the icky parts because he just wanted to be like, oh, he's got all this trauma from his past, and I just want to hold you and coddle you.
What I'm finding is he wants to know the icky parts so that he understands the process of what's happening in my brain because he doesn't want to add to that. Is that accurate? Yeah, it is. You know, I've often related it to I see him hurting, but I don't know how to help. Do you need to know what it is in order to comfort him? Or can you comfort him just because you see he's distressed or he's...
Upset? I can definitely comfort him without knowing. Does he let you? Sometimes. You know, we're very different ends of the spectrum. He's very much words. I'm very much touch and action. So trying to speak his kind of language of what he needs is something I'm still trying to learn how to do. I'm not a big talker. I'm the quiet listener.
So in those respects it works out well. But maybe he talks when he should be touched. And you should not learn from him. When there's that physical recoil from that touch, am I doing more harm than good? So sometimes that does happen. And it does take me a few minutes to lean into that. Because I realize that, yeah,
I'm recoiling from this person that I've been with for 14 years. So again, there are elements of guilt around that. I'm like, "Holy smokes, that must not feel great to him." You know? 'Cause here's your beloved coming to touch you and I'm like, "Hold on, hold on." But it takes me a few minutes to kind of go, "Okay, all right, I'm safe."
One of the many ways to begin to understand trauma is that it is an overwhelming experience that often induces terror and helplessness to which we then respond from the place of our reptilian brain: fight, flight or freeze.
As my colleague Bessel van der Kolk has so beautifully stated, when it comes to trauma, the body keeps the score. So while he thinks it's his mind, when he recoils, it's a body that recoils. And it recoils and it freezes and it closes off in order to protect. 20 years later, how does he let his body know that this time he doesn't need to recoil?
that this is a person who is coming to make him feel good and not take advantage of him honestly i have to say in my head i'm safe this is a good thing this is this is the person i love the most this is the safest place where i am in the world do i think that that's ridiculous that i have to say that to myself yes i do no thank you no it's wonderful that you can
Speak to the scared part in you, to the scared boy in you that needs a moment to differentiate between loving touch and hurtful touch and grounds you in reality, in the moment and says, "Hey, no, we love each other and he's coming to comfort me and I can let myself trust him and he will hold me and I will feel safe."
Nothing ridiculous about that. All good. I want that to be something that is just innate, something that is just normal. Do most people recoil from somebody who hugs? Most people who experience what you have may. Normality comes in many forms. What you do, the natural language you have at that moment to hold him is exactly what needs to be.
And when he recoils, stay steady. It has nothing to do with you. He doesn't recoil from you. It's very hard to believe that. Because I'm sure so many times you have touched him and his shoulders go up and you think, who else is he rejecting if not me? I'm the one holding him. But it's not. It is and it's not.
It's signaling to himself, this is comfort, this is love, this is care, this is gentle. But his body memory needs a moment to determine this. So you let him do his translation and you just stay steady and you just say, he's adjusting the dials. I get into that self-doubt or is it really me? So...
it does bring up those kind of self-esteem questions or why is he pulling away from me? What have I done? For sure. And now? And now the more I learn about him and that past trauma, I can see that it's not. And it may sometimes take me a few minutes to readjust my internal dials, as you said, to go, wait a minute, it's not. Stay fast and kind of do what I know.
Sometimes I treat him poorly. Talk to him. Sometimes I treat you poorly because I see him as an extension of... Him is not here, you are here. Because I see you as an extension of me. So if I'm really hard on you, it's because that's how I speak to myself. So I'm working ongoing of trying to be a little more self-compassionate
first of all, to understand how to be more nurturing with myself, which will then allow me to be more nurturing to you because I do see you as an extension of me. How do you talk to yourself in those moments? How does that voice speak to you? Oh my gosh, you're stupid, you're bad, you're ugly, you're worthless. And if I see him as an extension of me, then am I saying those things
- To him. - Probably. - You've never said those words. - No. - There's those feelings there for sure. - For sure. - Who spoke to you this way? - That's something I've learned from my parents. - Both of them? - I grew up in a very volatile environment, yes. And even just saying those words sounds very clinical. But because I'm trying to remove the, obviously I'm trying to remove the emotion from that. - And if you didn't?
I'd be pissed off. And you'd say... That wasn't right. That wasn't fair. No, I grew up in a... A shitty environment. Right. A really shitty environment. Very hostile, very abusive, very demeaning environment. And when I talk to myself in this way, and I say, "Stupid, idiot, the fuck is wrong with you? Worthless piece of shit." Who's talking?
Where did I learn it and who did it to me? My parents, my mom, my dad. Now, I've just begun to wade in and to begin to dig in deep into the stuff. I see our relationship changing for the positive. Even with who would have ever thought that my acting out with my sexual addiction, whoever would have thought that this
This, the worst thing that could have ever happened in our 14 years. Who would have ever thought that this would actually bring us to a place of a year later? Getting married. We just got married. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. And you're making a connection? Yeah. How? By some of the things that we're talking about already. In a relationship, we often will establish a type of status quo. It's the stuff I'm willing to live with.
given the implicit contract that exists between us, the unspoken contract. But when there is a crisis, it upsets the status quo, by which things that I was willing to live with, I may no longer want to accept at this point. And that actually becomes a source for change and movement.
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You needed this?
to unleash something between the two of you? I've never, we've never been so, I have never been so honest about my history and my past. This provided... And he has never been more demanding for once? Yeah, I've definitely started pushing him more on it. On it or on meeting you? On sharing with me his past, on letting me in a little bit more, on helping me to understand what's going on in his head.
before when he said he didn't want to talk about it, it's like, okay, I don't want to push, I don't want to be too aggressive. But I'm asking you something else. Are you more demanding for yourself now? I think so. I think when all this happened, one of the things I did not do is take responsibility. His acting out was, I think I actually said, this is not me, I've done nothing wrong. And that's not typically you? No.
I'm the caregiver. I take care of everybody else. How did it feel to ask for something for you? Scary, but good. Scary how? It's that fear of rejection. Do I deserve this? Should I be doing this? And the answer is yes, resoundingly. And it's just getting my head around that to say, I can put myself first when it's appropriate, when I do need help.
That which is more often than I'd actually do for sure. Yes, because what you deem appropriate is when it's massive crisis. Right. And we're going to need to learn to ask for more even when the house is not on fire. Yeah. So where did you learn to live on cramps? He's not the only one with a history, huh? Oh yeah, for sure. I never saw it as that though. It's normality. You always do for others. Yes, but what you're telling me is I don't need much.
I make sure not to need much so nobody can say no. True. I'm a pretty low maintenance person though. Oh, you've got it nicely rationalized. You're not getting away with that. Wrapped in a, I'm a low maintenance kind of guy. And then I meet myself, this wonderful boyfriend who is a super high maintenance kind of guy. So I get to preserve the title. Wait, what?
His drama is always bigger than yours. - This is true. - Very true. - His history will always be shittier than yours. - Wow. - His family will always be shittier than yours. And he needs to cheat on you for you finally to say, "I want something now." Which is great, but he shouldn't have to cheat on you for you to say, "I need more." - True. - So where did you learn
To refrain from asking, wanting, needing. I think it starts with not wanting to be noticed. Growing up as that little gay boy, if you don't need much, you're not going to be noticed. So you can fly another radar. I learned how to hunt and fish and be in Boy Scouts and play Little League and do what you were supposed to. What did you want them to see? What a great person I am. That I do have something to offer. Does he know you, Payne?
Because it's so much his triggers, his pain, his drama. Not to minimize it, but there's an imbalance. Sure. Ask him more. What did it feel like when you were fitting in? Like, what did it feel like when you were with this group of straight guys out hunting? I just didn't want to be there. I love being out in nature, but to kill something? No. As I listened to him,
I begin to wonder, what is his silence? And I get a sense that both men have an unexplored side to themselves. A story that was never told. A truth about themselves that could never be safely expressed. And so I begin to ask him. Did they know? My brother knew and never told my father. He passed. So you never came out to him? Not to my father, no.
Why didn't you tell your dad? I asked myself that a lot. I think it was just that fear of disappointment. Do you hear yourself saying it to him? I do. And when you hear yourself saying it to him now? He says, I already knew and why are we talking about this? What's it like for you? In part, it's a relief because he goes, okay, great, he already understands it. I don't need to waste time on it. And the other part? Says, why don't you want to get to know me better? Mm-hmm.
Say it again. Why don't you want to get to know me better? Which I think is one reason why I do press a little bit harder on getting to know him because I am trying to undo that, especially for myself. Yes, but I want you to press him on getting to know you. And that's the other side of that. If he's willing to share that with me, then I think that, again, not having that vocabulary and words gives me permission to do it for myself. Mm-hmm.
How you doing? Good. I have not been able to access this. You can come near him. I was wanting to. I'm sitting here watching you get emotional. But I have not been able to access this. Just tell him what it's like for you to listen to him. When I hear you, when I say I need to learn how to be a better nurturer, I see that and go, oh my gosh, I want to nurture this. I want to get closer. I want to hug you. I want to hold you.
Do you want to do it? What you just said? Hug him and hold him and touch him. Yes! Then go ahead and shut up. I do! I do! When I listen to you, I am moved, I am sad, I am grateful, I am full. I feel what? It pulls me closer to you. It affords me the opportunity to nurture you a little bit. I think...
Esther really touched on the point when she said that my shit, there's a huge imbalance. Because here I am with all of my stuff and then here you are saying, "Well, I don't need very much." And so I go, "Okay, well then I can provide that." I can provide not very much. So I don't often feel like a really great mate because I'm going, "Okay, well, I can provide you those scraps." And I don't want to provide you those scraps.
I want a whole healthy like enveloping wrap around like that's what I want. I just didn't know how to access. And I would just say tell me more. We've been talking about me for a long time. Right. I'm sick of talking about myself. So then ask him tell me more. Because this is a lie in your relationship. It's not an intentional lie but it's a lie. This idea that you don't need much and that
It needed infidelity for you to finally say, "I want something," and unequivocally demand it. Good for you. And one of the things that infidelity sometimes does is it finally makes the person who always puts their needs last say, "Now me too." And I think that if you ask for more, things will change. The focus on his triggers is too seductive. You touch
Because you've learned not to talk and you've learned not to talk because you fear the consequences of talking. Because the first thing that would have come out of your mouth is, I'm gay, I am who I am, I may not be the son you imagined. And so you learn not to talk. So we've got you who learn not to talk and we've got him who over talks but says not much. I mean...
You know what I'm saying. I'm not mean to be insulting. Great self-esteem. It's a kind of talking when you get nervous. Right. It's a bait and sweat. It doesn't... I have an idea. I suppose there are a lot of things or some things that you would like from him when it comes to sexuality between the two of you. For sure. I tend to see making love and sex as a fun thing
spontaneous, exciting kind of thing. So that's how I feel loved and know I'm loved. This is a couple who in the beginning thought that they were going to come to talk about their sexuality together, that they were going to come and talk about their sexual relationship. And we have now spent at least two hours in the trenches. And so now we're going to connect some of the dots between the background and the consequences.
We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us. I hope you know that the physicality of our relationship is one of my favorite things. And I do want more of that. Whether it's complete naked sex fun, spontaneous hugs, like the other day when we were in the kitchen and you came up and hugged me and kissed me and just...
said thank you and I love you for, I forget what I was doing, making dinner or whatever. I do want more of that. I need more of that. Do you tell him, "I love it," when he does it? Not always. It's something new for him to be doing and it's something new for me to reinforce it. Good. That you both need to do more of. You do and you tell him it feels great so that you blatantly reinforce each other.
And you don't have to say, "I do this because I know it's important to you." You can also say, "I do this and I love giving to you." That's a really great... My mind just really went... and expanded my mind. No, it really did because I'm thinking, "I do this because it's fulfilling a need," not, "I'm doing this because I enjoy this as well, and I enjoy touching you, and I enjoy connecting with you." So it was... I want you to know without question
that you're the most important person to me. Okay. When I come into the kitchen and hug you spontaneously, I feel... When I come into the kitchen and hug you spontaneously, it feels foreign to me. I feel... I feel I'm not used to it. And I feel like almost there has to be a purpose. Like it can't just be because I love you that I'm coming in here and doing it. And I want to be connected to you.
It's almost very purposeful. So I don't feel immediately connected. I do after I do it and I see the way you respond. Then I go, "Okay, this is a good thing. This is bringing us closer." This is a good thing or it feels good? It feels good. Do you know the difference? Right now when you're holding his hand, it's a good thing or it feels good? It feels good.
You know? I do know. You sure? I do. But I think it's a good thing because it does feel good. It feels good, feels scary to me. I'm scared of being vulnerable. I'm scared of letting go. I'm scared of... And I really have issues with this. Being submissive isn't even the right word. I trust you wholeheartedly. I trust you. But that place kind of scares me too.
That fear, that resonance of submissiveness, which he knows in the moment is not the right word, but in the past was the imposed position, this is the remnants of sexual abuse talking. What could he do? Are there things that he can do with you that would help you anchor? I think by taking my hand and kind of focusing me,
Because I get spun up and my brain goes. So you want him to hold your face with his two hands. Go ahead. I want you to hold my face. And I want you to keep your eyes open so that you can't leave. Yes, I want you to... This would be nice. This feels really nice. This feels safe. This is good. On my neck. Try on my face. Right. But you want him to lock the gaze.
You want him to make sure that you see that it's him. Correct. And not any of the other jerks. Right. And you want him to say something? Do you want him to say, it's me? We're all right? Yes, I do. What do you want him to say? I want you to say, it's all right. I'm here. It's all right. I'm here. You are safe. Say it again. I'm here. You're safe. I feel safe.
I feel good. I feel grounded. I feel connected. Very much. As do I. It's very strange. Don't talk. No. If the tears come, just let them come. And say it again. I am here. I love you. And you're safe. I love you. I love you. I'm here for you. You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.
To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to estherperel.com. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity in the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, estherperel.com.